Speaker 1: I was very lucky the period barrier fell just ahead
Speaker 1: of me. Other women had put them down, women like
Speaker 1: Margaret Bourbage and very Reuben. By the time I applied
Speaker 1: to Caltech, I wanted the first woman. There were fourteen
Speaker 1: women on the entire camp, and when I came, that
Speaker 1: was Virginia Tremble, an award winning astronomer, talking about the
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties when she was one of the rare women
Speaker 1: studying the stars at an American university. I'm Alan Ververe
Speaker 1: and this is Seneca's one hundred Women to Hear. We
Speaker 1: are bringing you one hundred of the world's most inspiring
Speaker 1: and history making women you need to hear. A professor
Speaker 1: of physics and astronomy at U c Irvine, doctor Tremble
Speaker 1: is the author of over nine hundred papers. She specializes
Speaker 1: in the structure an evolution of stars, as well as
Speaker 1: the history of signs. Her career has taken many colorful turns.
Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty two, is an undergrad at U c
Speaker 1: l A. She was featured in a Life magazine article
Speaker 1: that led to her being selected as Miss Twilight Zone.
Speaker 1: For that job, she toured the United States to promote
Speaker 1: the TV series. Now she is the co editor of
Speaker 1: a new book called The Sky Is for Everyone. It's
Speaker 1: filled with the autobiographies of amazing women astronomers. Listen and
Speaker 1: learn why Virginia Tremble is one of Seneca's One Women
Speaker 1: to Hear. I'm speaking today with Virginia Tremble, the greate astronomer. Welcome, Virginia.
Speaker 1: We're so looking forward to this conversation today. Well, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for meating it. Well, you're a groundbreaker
Speaker 1: by any definition. You've had a career that spans more
Speaker 1: than fifty years as an award winning astronomer. Physics Today
Speaker 1: described you as a renegade scientist. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1: Is that an app description for you? Or how would
Speaker 1: you describe yourself? Well, I took the liberty of looking
Speaker 1: up renegade in the dictionary, and I decided I'm not
Speaker 1: to renegade anything. I'm still all the things that I've
Speaker 1: been for a very long time. I'm a woman, I'm
Speaker 1: a I'm an astronomer. I'm a native California, very fond
Speaker 1: of my native state, and a native born American rather
Speaker 1: proud of my country. I'm not renegade anything. Well, in
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty two, when you were in undergrad studying astrophysics
Speaker 1: at U c L. A Life magazine ran an article
Speaker 1: at photos about you. They seemed incredulous that you had
Speaker 1: a brain because the title of the article was behind
Speaker 1: a lovely face A hundred and eighty I Q. I
Speaker 1: don't think a magazine could do that today. But what
Speaker 1: did you think about it back then? Well, my mother
Speaker 1: was very please and I was very pleased. The photographer
Speaker 1: was the wonderful Bill Ray who died not very long ago.
Speaker 1: The reporter who probably didn't get to use her own words,
Speaker 1: with a woman whose name I confess I've forgotten, but
Speaker 1: they thought me around for a couple of days. It
Speaker 1: was a wonderful experience, and it led in turn to
Speaker 1: my being picked to be Miss Twilight jone the next year,
Speaker 1: and that also was a wonderful experience. Very interesting. So
Speaker 1: let's go back. What was school like for you, both
Speaker 1: as an undergrad and a PhD candidate? I know at
Speaker 1: that time there were many programs, I'm sure, and even
Speaker 1: observatories that wouldn't accept women. So can you tell us
Speaker 1: about what it was like. I was very lucky that
Speaker 1: serious barriers fell just ahead of me. Other women had
Speaker 1: pushed them down, women like Margaret Bourbage and very Reuben.
Speaker 1: By the time I applied to cal Tech, I wasn't
Speaker 1: the first woman. They were fourteen women on the entire
Speaker 1: campus when I came. When I applied for a Woodward
Speaker 1: Wilson fellowship, they'd had other women. When I applied for
Speaker 1: observing time at Palomar for my thesis, I was not
Speaker 1: the first woman to be granted observing time in my
Speaker 1: own right. That had been Very Reuben. So the barriers
Speaker 1: just fell ahead of me. Diddo for a NATO post
Speaker 1: doc when I completed my PhD. But there were still
Speaker 1: so few women, even even though some of the barriers
Speaker 1: have fallen. For sure, that is true. Statistically, um, maybe
Speaker 1: not very many. When many women wanted to be physicists
Speaker 1: or astronomers, That still, to a certain extent is true. Well,
Speaker 1: those fortune women you mentioned on campus, were they astronomy majors?
Speaker 1: Were they all signed? No? No, No, These were the
Speaker 1: graduate students. There were no undergraduate women at Caltech until
Speaker 1: ninety two. I think these were graduate students or post docs.
Speaker 1: And one very distinguished physicist, mathematician Olgatowski Tod who at
Speaker 1: the time did not have a proper faculty position, but
Speaker 1: she was one of the really great mathematicians of her generation.
Speaker 1: It was her husband who had the faculty position. But
Speaker 1: I did get to meet Algatowski Todd, just very briefly. Well,
Speaker 1: what was your time at Palamar Observatory, Lie, And that's
Speaker 1: an extraordinary place. It rained a lot I didn't have.
Speaker 1: I did not have particularly good luck as an observer, partly,
Speaker 1: maybe entirely because the object I was studying the remnant
Speaker 1: of the ten fifty four supernova, the crab Nebula is
Speaker 1: on the meridiant midnight on the tenth of December, so
Speaker 1: it's something you observe late October to early February. And
Speaker 1: I had several observing runs. One was rained out completely,
Speaker 1: one was partly rained out. I got some data, a
Speaker 1: little bit of it got used in my thesis, but
Speaker 1: not very much. It just it wasn't a successful time
Speaker 1: place to be trying to observe the crab nebula. I
Speaker 1: had several wonderful experiences there. I I was the observer
Speaker 1: on the forty eight in Schmidt telescope when chip Arp
Speaker 1: was the two observer, and he was rained out too,
Speaker 1: of course, and we spent an evening over the fireplace
Speaker 1: in the monastery, just talking about things astronomy mostly, but
Speaker 1: life in general. He was a prize winning fencer. Interesting
Speaker 1: I also had in those days. I'm crippled, David. In
Speaker 1: those days, I was an enthusiastic swimmer and dancer in
Speaker 1: various other athletic activity. Well, it sounds like it was
Speaker 1: a rewarding conversation at any rate. Yeah, I tried to
Speaker 1: advise him. Can you imaginating in a stupid of a
Speaker 1: graduate student, a woman graduate student, trying to advise the
Speaker 1: senior astronomer. He did not take my advice, and I
Speaker 1: think it would have been better off he had he had,
Speaker 1: But he persisted in the conversation with you, So that's
Speaker 1: us something. Well, there wasn't much else to do, you know.
Speaker 1: Eventually my piece of advisor drove up in the middle
Speaker 1: of the rain, in the middle of the night to
Speaker 1: bring me home. He didn't like the idea of my
Speaker 1: spending the night with your part. Oh my, Well, I
Speaker 1: know that you've co edited a wonderful new book called
Speaker 1: The Skies for Everyone, and in that there are thirty
Speaker 1: seven women astronomers who write their autobiographies. Can you tell
Speaker 1: us about the book? Did you feel it was necessary
Speaker 1: or what did you want to achieve by working on it.
Speaker 1: It wasn't my idea. The idea came from co editor
Speaker 1: David weyin Trout and Princeton University Press, and they decided
Speaker 1: that under the circumstances they should have a female co editor.
Speaker 1: I ended up first alphabetically, if nothing else. Truthfully, David
Speaker 1: did most of the heavy listing, but I did add
Speaker 1: to the list. He had maybe half maybe a dozen
Speaker 1: women who'd agreed to contribute. I added a fair number
Speaker 1: of women from other countries, from a few other ethnicities.
Speaker 1: We were moderately successful, but um, I thought it would
Speaker 1: be fun to do. And of course, as I'm sure
Speaker 1: you know, women are conditioned to say yes when they're
Speaker 1: have to do something. Sorry, I asked to do this,
Speaker 1: I said yes, and it was very interesting to do.
Speaker 1: We stole the idea for the book title from one
Speaker 1: of the women who wrote a chapter near the end,
Speaker 1: one of the South African women, the wonderful title, Yes
Speaker 1: it is. We thought of some other things that that
Speaker 1: that was the winner. Well, it must have been quite
Speaker 1: an effort to contact all of those women in various
Speaker 1: countries and then translate their work. No translation required. That
Speaker 1: a successful scientist these days is simply of necessity fluent
Speaker 1: in English, at least fluent in technical English. Sometimes the
Speaker 1: everyday vocabulary is less successful. You should have heard me
Speaker 1: a few years ago trying to explain what the concubine
Speaker 1: was that someone who whose first language was not English. Well,
Speaker 1: translation may not have been necessary, but did the technical
Speaker 1: vocabulary have to be edited? Some? Not very much, We
Speaker 1: explained to the women. I'm one of the authors, of course,
Speaker 1: because I wrote a trial chapter just to see how
Speaker 1: difficult it was. It took an afternoon, but I write
Speaker 1: a lot on a typewriter, I will confess anyway. We
Speaker 1: told the women who'd agreed to help out that the
Speaker 1: audience was people who were interested in the world but
Speaker 1: are not going to be or not our professional scientists.
Speaker 1: We would hope to reach adolescents who might be thinking
Speaker 1: about what to do with their lives, to persuade them
Speaker 1: that science is a neat thing for a gal to do,
Speaker 1: and they responded very very well. We asked a few
Speaker 1: people to add definitions or translations. We compiled, or perhaps
Speaker 1: David compiled, a long list of the algorithms and the
Speaker 1: young acronyms that were used so that people would know
Speaker 1: what a L S or whatever stood for. We were
Speaker 1: any of these women your mentors or personal heroes, or
Speaker 1: you've got the wrong generation. I'm the third oldest person
Speaker 1: in the book. We actually lost one author between the
Speaker 1: book appearing and now. Judith Piper, who was a pioneer
Speaker 1: of infrared instrumentation, died fairly recently. We were we kept
Speaker 1: our fingers crossed for the health of all our all
Speaker 1: of our contributors. Of course, I mean the very first
Speaker 1: astronomy professor I ever had was a woman. Her name
Speaker 1: was Wooster Makemson, Maude Wooster Makinson. He taught at U
Speaker 1: c l A when I was an undergraduate there. He
Speaker 1: taught at one of the women's colleges a long time ago.
Speaker 1: And so if you're a Reuben who now has a
Speaker 1: telescope name for her had her first astronomy class from
Speaker 1: Maude Wooster Mahampson as well. That we didn't actually discover
Speaker 1: that until after Maud died. But my very first astronomy
Speaker 1: professor was a woman, So it never occurred to me
Speaker 1: that it was odd. That's whatever you get used to
Speaker 1: I guess that is profoundly true. My father was a chemist,
Speaker 1: so I was used to scientists. But I would imagine
Speaker 1: if this crowd was much younger than you, that many
Speaker 1: of them had you as their personal heroine heroin. I
Speaker 1: very much doubt I'm not that type, but several of
Speaker 1: them doing their chapters mentioned that at least they've heard
Speaker 1: of me when I asked that to help out, which
Speaker 1: is very died with them. I think you're just modest modesty.
Speaker 1: Modesty's not one of my major vices. Well, you've also
Speaker 1: been a professor. You taught since ninete that's quite a
Speaker 1: long time. Yes, half of it wasent if you under
Speaker 1: Steve Maryland, My husband was a very distinguished physicist dead
Speaker 1: now for twenty two years, UM, who was a tenured
Speaker 1: professor at the University of Maryland. When we got married
Speaker 1: and our department chairs worked out January could Julie both
Speaker 1: be at u C I July to December, we will
Speaker 1: both be at Maryland each year. This worked very well, actually,
Speaker 1: with a good solution to the two career problems which
Speaker 1: nobody else has ever adopted. But I still listen. I
Speaker 1: still recommend that, Um, if you have a spouse, you're
Speaker 1: very fond of. And you have a job you're very
Speaker 1: fond of, and your spouse has a job he or
Speaker 1: he or they is are very fond of. Then work
Speaker 1: it out with your department chairs to share out so
Speaker 1: you both keep your jobs and your spouses and so forth. Actually,
Speaker 1: it sounds like a very modern arrangement. More power to you. Well,
Speaker 1: it wasn't modern. It's happened in the nineteen two. No,
Speaker 1: I was happening. That's why I mentioned it. It seems
Speaker 1: like something that you know, one would strive to have
Speaker 1: work today. It's good that you made it work. You
Speaker 1: have to ask, and statistically women don't ask. It shows
Speaker 1: up in promotion records and all kinds of things. Senecas
Speaker 1: one hundred Women to Hear will be back after this
Speaker 1: short break. Give us a sense of how the field
Speaker 1: of astronomy and the students have changed. I mean, you've
Speaker 1: had an extraordinary lifespan in the field. Would you call
Speaker 1: it welcoming for women? I don't know the answer to that,
Speaker 1: because I haven't applied for a job for a long time. Statistically,
Speaker 1: they are undoubtedly more women, and they have more positions
Speaker 1: of power and authority. The press release yesterday or today
Speaker 1: about the guys that NASA has said they hit the
Speaker 1: asteroid to change its orbit. There were I think six
Speaker 1: or seven people quoted, and five or six of them
Speaker 1: were women with some position of authority, either in NATHA
Speaker 1: or a related institution. So unquestionably more women, more women
Speaker 1: with power. Yeah, and so many women astronauts these days,
Speaker 1: which wasn't the case not that long ago. Well, Sally
Speaker 1: Ride was actually a good friend because he left NATHA
Speaker 1: and came to youth the San Diego where he headed
Speaker 1: up an institute, and I was on their committee. To
Speaker 1: Sally Ride, who died very young. I'm sorry, with a
Speaker 1: good friend, the first American woman in space. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: if you don't count the squirrel the squirrel monkey. Well,
Speaker 1: we had Seneca women off and talk about the need
Speaker 1: to have a you know, women's perspective in all fields.
Speaker 1: Do you feel it's important in astronomy? And if you do,
Speaker 1: why I'm not totally persuaded that there is a woman's
Speaker 1: perspective in reading chapters besides the one I wrote I was.
Speaker 1: I know, it's distressed to find not very many of
Speaker 1: them had really had fun all the time in the
Speaker 1: way I it. I mean, I thoroughly enjoyed being a
Speaker 1: reasonably attractive woman in a field with lots of nice guys,
Speaker 1: and do I had to have a different perspective. Let
Speaker 1: me quote a colleague who staying my preps I couldn't mention,
Speaker 1: who claimed that when I joined a conversation, I always
Speaker 1: lowered the tone. Well, we've talked about a number of experiences.
Speaker 1: I wonder if there are there's something someone experience or
Speaker 1: two that just stand out in your life that you'd
Speaker 1: like to talk about or mention. Well, I was very
Speaker 1: pleased when I got the letter of acceptance at cal Tech.
Speaker 1: That actually begins my chapter. Most of the women who
Speaker 1: wrote chapter started with being born. I'm born in the
Speaker 1: middle of my chaptor. Well, that's a proper obituary, right,
Speaker 1: You say first why the person is important, and then
Speaker 1: you have them be born later. New York Times always
Speaker 1: does that anyways, Um, the letter accepting me at cal
Speaker 1: Tech was a great pleasure, getting my first ollership with
Speaker 1: a great pleasure. Mary and Joe wherever with enormous fund.
Speaker 1: He asked me, when we've known each other just a
Speaker 1: few days, and we married when we've known each other
Speaker 1: eleven days. In the County Courthouse in Montgomery County, Maryland.
Speaker 1: Then three months later we married again in the local synagogue.
Speaker 1: But Mary and Koe was great fun. And I'm glad,
Speaker 1: he asked me. I'm glad I had been enough to say, yes, Well,
Speaker 1: those are wonderful highlights, and I can imagine stay with you,
Speaker 1: and we'll always stay with you. And you know, as
Speaker 1: an astronomer, you've had such a unique perspective on the world.
Speaker 1: Most of us don't have that perspective obviously, And I wonder,
Speaker 1: given what's happening today, whether in politics or climate change, whatever,
Speaker 1: these are times that can get somebody down. How do
Speaker 1: you stay optimistic? You sound like a very upbeat human being,
Speaker 1: and I wonder what gives you hope. I don't read
Speaker 1: the new paper three often. You know that that actually acted,
Speaker 1: That is true. I read the l A Times at
Speaker 1: breakfast in New York Times over supper. Um. I guess
Speaker 1: I'm hard to discourage. It's true physically that I have
Speaker 1: a very high pain threshold. I think it's also true
Speaker 1: psychologically that I have a very high pain threshold. I
Speaker 1: don't discourage easily. I think the world is going through
Speaker 1: the dogs that I should take barking lessons. But people
Speaker 1: have been saying the world was going to the dogs
Speaker 1: at least since the time of Plato. Were there about
Speaker 1: um Fred Hoyle used to say that, yes, science may
Speaker 1: not save science from crumbling. Our technological civilization may well die,
Speaker 1: and he thought it would happen in his lifetime, which
Speaker 1: is now some years ago. But the human races is
Speaker 1: physically very tough, and the human race will surely survive.
Speaker 1: Even if we blowed ourselves to smithereens or try to
Speaker 1: drown in our own garbage. The human race will survive.
Speaker 1: It will include none of my descendants. I made my
Speaker 1: most important in the contribution to a small carbon footprint
Speaker 1: by not having children. A lot to reflect on what
Speaker 1: you just said, Virginia, and we thank you so much
Speaker 1: for joining us today in this podcast and for the
Speaker 1: scintillating conversation. Virginia Tremble, thank you so much, well, thank you,
Speaker 1: and farewell to everybody. I'm going to be thank fair
Speaker 1: well too. How fascinating to look at our universe through
Speaker 1: the eyes of Virginia Tremble. There are three things I
Speaker 1: took from that conversation. First, it's important to recognize the
Speaker 1: change does happen today. There are more and more women
Speaker 1: in the sciences. As Dr Tremble points out, media coverage
Speaker 1: of NASA's recent asteroid mission quoted numerous women tied to
Speaker 1: the program, some of them in positions of great authority. Second,
Speaker 1: Dr Tremble shows us the importance of role models for girls.
Speaker 1: Her new book, The Sky Is for Everyone showcases the
Speaker 1: autobiographies of thirty seven women astronomers. It's meant, she says,
Speaker 1: to reach out of lescence and persuade them that science
Speaker 1: is a neat thing for a girl to do. Finally,
Speaker 1: as a scientist, Virginia Tremble gives us hope for the future,
Speaker 1: as she says things may look difficult right now, but
Speaker 1: people have been predicting the end of the world since
Speaker 1: Plato's time. The human race, she reminds us, is physically
Speaker 1: very tough. Tune in next time to hear about our
Speaker 1: next featured woman and discover why she's one of Seneca's
Speaker 1: Women to Hear. Seneca's one hundred Women To Hear is
Speaker 1: a collaboration between the Seneca Women Podcast Network and I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, with support from founding partner PNG Have a
Speaker 1: Great Day. It number