Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a
Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.
Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power
Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.
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Speaker 3: Trust me, Trust trust Me.
Speaker 4: I'm like a swat person. I've never lied to you.
Speaker 2: I've never had a live If you think that one
Speaker 2: person has all the answers, don't.
Speaker 3: Welcome to trust Me.
Speaker 2: The podcast about cults Extreme belief of manipulation from two
Speaker 2: Da Vinci d coders who've actually experienced it. I'm Lila
Speaker 2: Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth. Today our guest is Gareth Gore,
Speaker 2: journalist and author whose new book Opus is about Opus Day,
Speaker 2: an ultraconservative Catholic sect, it's harmful practices, its history of
Speaker 2: dark money, and its connections to modern day right wing
Speaker 2: American politics. He's going to talk to us about how
Speaker 2: he came to the story while investigating the shady practices
Speaker 2: at bank in Spain, the history of the group and
Speaker 2: its leader's goals of recruiting elite members of society and
Speaker 2: its cultic practices like living in gender segregated homes with
Speaker 2: the highly controlled life and doing body mortification rituals.
Speaker 1: Yikes, And he is just so funny. He found the
Speaker 1: story from doing financial journalism.
Speaker 5: It's free, it makes no sense.
Speaker 3: It's a weird way to get there.
Speaker 5: It's such a journey.
Speaker 1: He'll also tell us about how members with groom kids
Speaker 1: as young as eleven or twelve to become people of
Speaker 1: influence in the group, How there are a number of
Speaker 1: reports of trafficking low income young women and girls in
Speaker 1: various countries to exploit their labor at opus dairy treats,
Speaker 1: How some people were fed a cocktail of prescription drugs
Speaker 1: they didn't need, and whether there's been any accountability for
Speaker 1: these practices, which the group tries to officially distance themselves from.
Speaker 2: Plus it ties to prominent US conservative activist Leonard Leo,
Speaker 2: who's had an outside influence in naming three of our
Speaker 2: current Supreme Court appointees, and who's tied to Project twenty
Speaker 2: twenty five seeking to quote crush liberal dominance.
Speaker 3: There's so this is jam packed.
Speaker 2: So much we cover in this interview, and we still
Speaker 2: didn't cover so much of what.
Speaker 5: He in the book.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we might have to have him back on.
Speaker 2: We did talk about that after the interview, but yes,
Speaker 2: lots of stuff in here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like you said, it is the real life DaVinci code,
Speaker 1: you know, and he really found himself in quite a
Speaker 1: little quandary.
Speaker 5: And it's very interesting.
Speaker 2: I know, I know, I've been telling so many people
Speaker 2: since we did this interview, did you know Opus Day
Speaker 2: was real?
Speaker 3: Did you know?
Speaker 2: Have you heard about Opus Day? I'm like a total
Speaker 2: I'm like obsessed with it now. I had no idea
Speaker 2: so well before we go into opus territory. Yeah, Meg, Megan,
Speaker 2: what is your cultiest thing of the week.
Speaker 1: Well, I talk about it a little bit in our interview.
Speaker 1: I keep referencing the Octopus. It's on Netflix. It's called
Speaker 1: American Conspiracy, the Octopus Murders, and I did not have
Speaker 1: high hopes for it. Turns out it's one of the creepiest,
Speaker 1: most interesting things I've ever seen. If you're into that
Speaker 1: kind of stuff, fast forward me talking and jump right
Speaker 1: into it. If you're not, then listen to me now,
Speaker 1: because basically at the end you go on this whole
Speaker 1: long journey with him, and every rock you turnover, there's
Speaker 1: so much dirt. There's crime, bribes, and there's murders, and
Speaker 1: there's all of these things.
Speaker 3: But at the very.
Speaker 1: End, he kind of is just like, I can't live
Speaker 1: in this world where I think about it as all
Speaker 1: connecting and not trust anything.
Speaker 5: And maybe somebody.
Speaker 1: Else would take a different takeaway from it, but that's
Speaker 1: the takeaway that I got, which is just like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you can't even if you're like, damn like every industry.
Speaker 1: I also watched the p Diddy doc on TMZ because
Speaker 1: it's in the mister What's the guy from the guy
Speaker 1: from WWE?
Speaker 5: There's a new doc about him.
Speaker 2: Where he was just like McMahon, Vince McMahon, sex trafficking scandal,
Speaker 2: that guy.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I haven't.
Speaker 3: Heard anything about this.
Speaker 5: I don't know. I didn't watch it.
Speaker 1: You know, there's this whole dock on him where he
Speaker 1: was just blurring the lines between his character and TV.
Speaker 1: And then the boss in real life been doing unspeakable
Speaker 1: things to people, and you know, leaders do that a lot,
Speaker 1: and it's easy to just be like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: every single thing in the world has been overtaken by
Speaker 1: predators and everything's connected and they're all crossing sex slaves
Speaker 1: to each other. It's like easy for me to go there,
Speaker 1: and I don't want to live in that place.
Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, no, I think that's a really good takeaway.
Speaker 2: And also like there are predators everywhere, but there are
Speaker 2: predators everywhere because humans inevitably will produce predators, not because
Speaker 2: all predators.
Speaker 3: Are conspiring together to you know.
Speaker 2: Like but but I think it's the point you made
Speaker 2: is more important, which is like we talked to former
Speaker 2: conspiracy theories about that before, Like it doesn't serve you
Speaker 2: in any way, Like if something is unjust take an
Speaker 2: action and do something about it. And if you don't
Speaker 2: have any power, then why live in that constant state
Speaker 2: of distrust and suspicion and anxiety and depression.
Speaker 1: That's what I've never really heard us say that before,
Speaker 1: but I'm hearing it now. I Mean, I get if
Speaker 1: you've really made a connection in your brain and are
Speaker 1: like this is harming people, I have to help that.
Speaker 5: It might be a little bit tougher to let go.
Speaker 2: But just for me right now, That's what I'm saying, Like,
Speaker 2: if you can help, then help, yeah for sure, then.
Speaker 5: Help yeah for me right now?
Speaker 1: Little too much of everything crumbling for me too cognitively
Speaker 1: function in the world, So I'm gonna let some of
Speaker 1: that go.
Speaker 5: So the Octopus, I loved it. Watch it. Sorry to
Speaker 5: give away the end if now you want to see it.
Speaker 1: I understand that your cultiest thing of the week is
Speaker 1: going to be more of a monologue.
Speaker 5: Yes, correct, yes, okay.
Speaker 2: Yes, sorry, guys, I have another monologue.
Speaker 3: It's a serious one. Buckle in. But I think it's important.
Speaker 3: So shall I begin?
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Well, it's been a few months since I've
Speaker 2: talked about Gaza, So for anyone who isn't following the news,
Speaker 2: Israel has sieged the north of Gaza, where the horrors
Speaker 2: have been escalating. War in Middle East in general is
Speaker 2: like ramping up. It's very scary, but there are lots
Speaker 2: of figures I could name about the staggering number of
Speaker 2: Palestinians who have been killed since October seventh. The latest
Speaker 2: estimates from nearly one hundred American health care providers who
Speaker 2: volunteered in Gaza estimate the death toll not only by bombing,
Speaker 2: but also indirect methods of death, starvation, lack of health care,
Speaker 2: to be five point four percent of the entire population
Speaker 2: of Gaza. That's obviously absolutely staggering. And to be clear,
Speaker 2: the hostages deserve to come home. No one deserves to
Speaker 2: live in fear or experience violence either. All people should
Speaker 2: be allowed to live freely and peacefully, Palestinian and Israeli alike.
Speaker 2: And I understand and I've witnessed how reactions to this
Speaker 2: genocide have unfairly and hatefully translated into anti Semitism or
Speaker 2: conspiracy theories, which should never be the response. And it's
Speaker 2: appalling that it's twenty twenty four and anyone should have
Speaker 2: to spend their days afraid of bombs or violent attacks. So,
Speaker 2: since this is a cult podcast, there's something in particular
Speaker 2: that I think is important to consider when debating the
Speaker 2: realities of this war, and that is censorship and control
Speaker 2: of information.
Speaker 3: So the first of Robert J.
Speaker 2: Liften's eight criteria for thought reform is called miliu control,
Speaker 2: which refers to the control of information and communication within
Speaker 2: the environment and eventually the individual. So you see this
Speaker 2: in cults, virtually every cult. The immediate examples that come
Speaker 2: to mind are scientology or like the People's Temple which
Speaker 2: was Jonestown. But this is a hallmark of cults. It's
Speaker 2: trust only us, everyone else is a liar. In a
Speaker 2: recent episode, we learned about how Maud Zadong cracked down
Speaker 2: on anyone who had come forward to criticize his regime.
Speaker 2: In the Soviet Union in World War Two, foreign journalists
Speaker 2: were allowed in, but only under constant scrutiny and censorship.
Speaker 2: The same was true of Nazi Germany, who allowed the
Speaker 2: Associated Press in on the condition that they would submit
Speaker 2: to censorship and even propaganda. In North Korea, free press
Speaker 2: is not a thing, and Russia journalists are repeatedly targeted,
Speaker 2: and Donald Trump has suggested that members of the press
Speaker 2: who criticize him go to jail.
Speaker 3: And you see this also in Israel.
Speaker 2: And I make this point about the government and military
Speaker 2: systems of Israel, not the people of Israel, because as
Speaker 2: numbers are thrown back and forth and everyone digs their
Speaker 2: heels into their existing belief systems, I felt like it
Speaker 2: was worth explaining one of the big red flags for
Speaker 2: me personally about implicitly buying into the narratives provided by
Speaker 2: Netanyahu's far right government and the Israeli military, which before
Speaker 2: October seventh saw Israeli human rights organizations give up on
Speaker 2: trying to work with them anymore because of their track
Speaker 2: record of almost never pursuing investigations against its soldiers' crimes
Speaker 2: against Palestinians.
Speaker 3: Even the very well documented ones.
Speaker 2: So that red flag is the Israeli government's fight against
Speaker 2: independent journalism, especially when it comes to documenting its impact
Speaker 2: on the people of Gaza. What does that look like?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 2: Government officials in Israel halted broadcasts of Al Jazeera, one
Speaker 2: of the central critical voices of its treatment of Palestinians.
Speaker 2: The IDF recently rated the Al Jazeera offices in the
Speaker 2: West Bank and shut them down. Foreign journalists have been
Speaker 2: prevented from entering Gaza to report independently. Here's a quote
Speaker 2: from cnn dot com. Although the Israeli military has taken
Speaker 2: international reporters on dozens of embeds with their troops.
Speaker 3: The report orders on these troops.
Speaker 2: Have no freedom of movement and are not allowed to
Speaker 2: speak to Palestinians. The raw footage is also subject to
Speaker 2: Israeli military censorship. In July, more than seventy media and
Speaker 2: civil society organizations signed an open letter urging Israel to
Speaker 2: give journalists independent access to Gaza that included the Associated Press,
Speaker 2: The Guardian, The New York Times, BBC, CNN, the Washington Post,
Speaker 2: but no dice, they are not allowed. The Committee to
Speaker 2: Protect Journalists or the CPGA, says that Israeli authorities now
Speaker 2: hold the global record for arresting the most journalists per
Speaker 2: capita in a one year period. Numerous journalists in Gaza
Speaker 2: have been killed by the IDFs, somewhere in clearly marked vests,
Speaker 2: and a handful found to have been directly targeted by
Speaker 2: the IDF Based on evidence gathered and for context, more
Speaker 2: than one hundred reporters were killed and six months in Gaza.
Speaker 2: That numbers hire now twenty two in the line of duty.
Speaker 2: Compare that to sixty three journalists who died over twenty
Speaker 2: years of the Vietnam War. And my sources on this
Speaker 2: are the CPJA, Reporters without Borders, and a really very
Speaker 2: large number of credible news organizations who all have fact
Speaker 2: checkers in their employee. Haaretz and Israeli newspaper just this
Speaker 2: week published an editorial titled Israel must stop persecuting journalists
Speaker 2: and criminalizing the profession. So the question that I hope
Speaker 2: we all ask ourselves when we're debating facts and figures
Speaker 2: on the war, or even as we move into election
Speaker 2: territory here in the US. Is this would a government
Speaker 2: that has done no wrong ban entire news organizations? And
Speaker 2: if it's such a moral army? And many former IDF
Speaker 2: soldiers have come forward to groups like breaking the silence
Speaker 2: about what they witnessed and said otherwise. But if it is,
Speaker 2: shouldn't we want the light of day shown on the truth?
Speaker 2: Would a healthy political system target journalist who are merely
Speaker 2: doing their job where there is no wrongdoing? Wouldn't you
Speaker 2: want that to come out? And at what point is
Speaker 2: trust only us not good enough? In science, truth is
Speaker 2: arrived at through the replication of studies by outside parties
Speaker 2: because of the danger of bias or fabrication when you
Speaker 2: just trust the guy who came up with it without questioning.
Speaker 2: Scientific truths are confirmed through evidence over time by multiple sources.
Speaker 2: In politics, in government, and in war, and especially in
Speaker 2: matters of life and death and genocide, the same standards
Speaker 2: should apply.
Speaker 3: That is my lengthy monologue. Thank you for listening.
Speaker 5: Wow, that's super interesting. I didn't know any of that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think freedom of information is so important lest
Speaker 1: we sound to one side leaning. I've also noticed it
Speaker 1: here with our current administration in disappointing ways, so never
Speaker 1: a good thing.
Speaker 5: I will look into what you said.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, Like every government should be held accountable and
Speaker 2: should have transparency, and I do think in the United
Speaker 2: States there's been so much lack of transparency, and I
Speaker 2: do think I wish that that culture would change, and
Speaker 2: I wish we would hold our politicians more accountable.
Speaker 5: Me too, Man, should we talk to Gareth.
Speaker 2: Let's do it. Welcome Gareth Gore to trust me. Thank
Speaker 2: you so much for being with us today.
Speaker 3: Thank you for having me to start us off.
Speaker 2: Can you tell us a little bit about your background
Speaker 2: as a journalist and what led you to this insane story.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, as your listeners will will find out if
Speaker 4: they read the book. I never came into this project
Speaker 4: with any intention of writing about Opper's day. I knew
Speaker 4: very little about Oppers day coming into this. So I'm
Speaker 4: a financial journalist. I've been a financial journalist for the
Speaker 4: past twenty years. I've covered all kinds of different stories,
Speaker 4: usually kind of following the money, you know, all of
Speaker 4: the world. I think I've reported from about twenty five
Speaker 4: or more countries from around the world, including Saudi Arabia, Russia, Peru,
Speaker 4: all over the place. So yes, I mean basically what
Speaker 4: happened was a bank in Spain collapsed and I was
Speaker 4: sent to report on what had happened. And at first
Speaker 4: it seemed like just a typical story of like a
Speaker 4: managers had taken too many risks and they allowed things
Speaker 4: to get out of control. But the more I dug
Speaker 4: into the story, the less sense it made, and I
Speaker 4: just kind of couldn't let it go and just kept
Speaker 4: on digging and digging into I found myself in this
Speaker 4: rabbit hole of Opus Day, And yeah, all that we're
Speaker 4: going to discuss today, I guess.
Speaker 2: I got to say my associations with Opus Day before
Speaker 2: reading your book and kind of learning about what this
Speaker 2: is about, were just the Da Vinci Code. And I
Speaker 2: had this like vague idea that it's a conspiracy theory
Speaker 2: about a shadowy like Mason esque group, and I had
Speaker 2: no idea that it was one actually real end two
Speaker 2: actually has legitimate accusations of abuse and is so intertwined
Speaker 2: with the American government. So can you just like, for
Speaker 2: anyone who has the same amount of references that I had,
Speaker 2: can you kind of just describe, like where is this
Speaker 2: information coming? Like This isn't a conspiracy theory book. This
Speaker 2: is like very intensive journalism. Where are you getting all
Speaker 2: the information from?
Speaker 4: So Opus Days is very real. So Opus Day was
Speaker 4: founded in nineteen twenty eight by a Spanish priest called
Speaker 4: Possumaria Eskaliba, who basically told everybody that he'd received this
Speaker 4: vision from God one day that basically outlined the foundations
Speaker 4: of a new organization that would allow ordinary Catholics to
Speaker 4: live out their faith more seriously without the need to
Speaker 4: become priests or nuns. What he set up was this
Speaker 4: organization that was supposed to provide kind of spiritual support
Speaker 4: to ordinary Catholics and basically that would show them how
Speaker 4: to I guess offer up their everyday lives to God.
Speaker 4: Like Basically, the message was that by striving for perfection
Speaker 4: in everything you do, whether that's work or your family
Speaker 4: life or even just cleaning their house or whatever, it's
Speaker 4: a way of I guess serving God and kind of
Speaker 4: offering up your life to God. And you know, I
Speaker 4: think whether you're religious or not, I think we can
Speaker 4: all agree that kind of I guess striving to do
Speaker 4: our best is a great philosophy. Very quickly kind of
Speaker 4: things started to evolve and deteriorate from there.
Speaker 1: I guess I was just going to say it sounds
Speaker 1: like prescription for severe OCD. But also, was he kind
Speaker 1: of framing himself as a prophet. What was his that
Speaker 1: he was speaking directly to God? Right? Oh?
Speaker 4: He was, Yeah, it was kind of The language he
Speaker 4: used was always rather vague. I think he avoided saying
Speaker 4: that he'd had direct conversations with God, but he certainly
Speaker 4: told people that he'd received this vision. I guess, you know,
Speaker 4: maybe some of us who maybe aren't believers might call
Speaker 4: it like an epiphany. He was basically on retreat for
Speaker 4: a few days in October nineteen twenty eight. He was
Speaker 4: already a priest at this point, and I think I
Speaker 4: guess he'd been thinking of thinking about his own faith
Speaker 4: and how to better serve God, and he basically came
Speaker 4: up with this idea or he received this idea from
Speaker 4: God at some point.
Speaker 2: Right, he received it directly from God, even if they
Speaker 2: weren't like on the phone every night, there was right.
Speaker 5: As they do.
Speaker 2: Okay, so kind of paint the picture for us of
Speaker 2: the origins of how this started to evolve, Because, first
Speaker 2: of all, the different factions of the Catholic Church super
Speaker 2: confusing to me. I don't know anything about Catholicism. You
Speaker 2: have the pope and then you have like, can you
Speaker 2: explain how where this kind of fits into Catholicism.
Speaker 4: Well so at this point, I mean, yes, there are
Speaker 4: kind of various movements within the church, some of which
Speaker 4: are hundreds and hundreds of years old. But at this
Speaker 4: stage Escaliba was just kind of a normal diocesan priest.
Speaker 4: He'd been trained in Tharragoza, and then he moved to Madrid,
Speaker 4: partly to so that he could study law alongside being priest.
Speaker 4: The critical thing in terms of why this movement developed
Speaker 4: in the way it did was the backdrop. So this
Speaker 4: is Spain in the early nineteen thirties. This is a
Speaker 4: society which is on the brink of civil wars, deep
Speaker 4: divisions in society. The workers are rising up kind of
Speaker 4: demanding rights for themselves. They've overthrown the monarchy, you know,
Speaker 4: many people are turning the backs on the Church and
Speaker 4: starting to question and the hold that religion has had
Speaker 4: over society and over their lives for so long. And
Speaker 4: Escliva saw this and was horrified. So what had begne
Speaker 4: a few years earlier. As this philosophy of kind of
Speaker 4: striving to just basically kind of do better and do
Speaker 4: your best in life started to become gradually more and
Speaker 4: more militant and more and more reactionary to what was
Speaker 4: happening around him. He basically started to pen a series
Speaker 4: of documents outlining the mission of the movement, and he
Speaker 4: basically said that he saw his followers as and at
Speaker 4: the stage he didn't really have any followers, but he
Speaker 4: was I guess he was.
Speaker 5: Thinking ahead, make it till you make it.
Speaker 4: Yes, his followers as part of this guerrilla army that
Speaker 4: would infiltrate every part of society, from government to the judiciary,
Speaker 4: to education, the media and there would basically use the
Speaker 4: positions to gather information on what he called the enemies
Speaker 4: of Christ, and they would seek to I guess, use
Speaker 4: or abuse the positions in society to carry out what
Speaker 4: he called the orders of Christ, which I guess were
Speaker 4: to come through him or through the organization. So, yes,
Speaker 4: I guess what had begun is this quite laudable and
Speaker 4: kind of benign philosophy developed into a very militant and
Speaker 4: quite political philosophy.
Speaker 2: I kind of want to hear about the all male residences.
Speaker 2: Like what the culture actually was and how that developed,
Speaker 2: because it's very cult like even before it expands to
Speaker 2: this larger thing.
Speaker 4: So to begin with, Escreva was adamants that would only
Speaker 4: be for men. He said, never ever will there be
Speaker 4: women in this organization. He later changed his mind, I
Speaker 4: guess when it became more convenient for him to have
Speaker 4: women in the organization. So initially he was teaching alongside
Speaker 4: being a priest, and at one stage he set up
Speaker 4: a university of residence to basically offer extra classes for
Speaker 4: people who were maybe falling behind in their studies or
Speaker 4: who wanted to do well. And so he had this
Speaker 4: captive audience of young men who were coming to get
Speaker 4: extra lessons in law and architecture. So basically, he says,
Speaker 4: up this academy, which was at least the public side
Speaker 4: of it was that it was just offering extra classes
Speaker 4: in law and architecture, but it had a hidden agenda
Speaker 4: as well, in that it was seeking to recruit these
Speaker 4: men into oppers day. So Escribar, the founder, would collect
Speaker 4: all kinds of information on these men who are coming
Speaker 4: through the door. He will keep report cards on each one.
Speaker 1: I mean, we have to pause here to just draw
Speaker 1: the parallel between scientology. For me, that's what's coming up.
Speaker 1: This feels like in Los Angeles they say, here's an
Speaker 1: acting class. You got to come through, and then they
Speaker 1: collect all your secrets and.
Speaker 3: They see them too.
Speaker 5: Same Nan two. He was ahead of his time.
Speaker 4: I was just about to make the same point. I
Speaker 4: mean what I find fascinating from this when I when
Speaker 4: I detach myself from just how horrendous this was and
Speaker 4: how he was grooming these people and the impact it
Speaker 4: had on people's lives. When you stand back, there's part
Speaker 4: of me that's almost in awe. I mean, he was
Speaker 4: this is the early nineteen thirties, and from what I understand,
Speaker 4: he was basically doing this on his own. He was
Speaker 4: developing these techniques by himself. He even wrote a document
Speaker 4: which Opaste has kept secret for over the years, for
Speaker 4: the past almost one hundred years, but which I managed
Speaker 4: to get my hands on. Well, well, yes, and so
Speaker 4: you can read all about it in the book. And
Speaker 4: so so he's getting these kids coming through the door,
Speaker 4: he's keeping records on them, he's trying new techniques the
Speaker 4: whole time, and he's finding out what works what doesn't.
Speaker 4: And I think it's in about nineteen thirty four or
Speaker 4: thirty five. Turn basically instructions for his followers to use
Speaker 4: to recruit new members. And these instructions are based on
Speaker 4: what he's learned. So he has a few kind of rules,
Speaker 4: like basically, never target anyone above the age of twenty
Speaker 4: five because, according to him, people of the theater twenty five,
Speaker 4: the kind of they ask too many baked.
Speaker 2: Intuitively, he knew that the forming brain, the frontal has
Speaker 2: closed for business.
Speaker 4: He tells people, you know, basically, never targets recruits as
Speaker 4: a group. You need to pick them off one by
Speaker 4: one and talk to them individually.
Speaker 2: You need to say thing Scientology did when I went
Speaker 2: to the Scientology Center.
Speaker 3: Okay, go on.
Speaker 4: He needs to also tell people that seem to be
Speaker 4: close to joining, you need to tell them that they
Speaker 4: need to shut up and don't tell anyone, especially not
Speaker 4: their family, about the fact that they enjoying this organization.
Speaker 4: I mean, as you rightly point out, ninety one hundred
Speaker 4: years on, these are techniques that are pretty standard as
Speaker 4: for cults these days in terms of identifying victims, kind
Speaker 4: of cutting them off from their environment, whether that be
Speaker 4: family or friends or whatever, and then kind of bombarding
Speaker 4: them with this information that they're told, look, don't share
Speaker 4: this with it with anyone else. This is just for you.
Speaker 4: And this became, you know, this was fairly.
Speaker 2: Efficient information and rules and a highly controlled schedule. Once
Speaker 2: they were actually in right, that like completely consumed their
Speaker 2: time and their lives and their critical thinking skills. I'm
Speaker 2: also curious about the body mortification and the sort of
Speaker 2: like physical self punishment that was a part of this.
Speaker 4: I mean absolutely the So once these people, once these
Speaker 4: men at the stage made the leap Escliva, I would
Speaker 4: basically tell them we give them this thing, which he
Speaker 4: called the Plan of Life, which was meticulously planned schedule
Speaker 4: for the day and for the week. So basically the
Speaker 4: men were required to do set things at set times
Speaker 4: of the day. So each day at six they would
Speaker 4: wake up. The first thing they had to do, this
Speaker 4: thing they called the heroic minute, was that they would
Speaker 4: get straight out of bed as soon as the clock
Speaker 4: chime six. They would get out of bed, kiss the
Speaker 4: floor and say SEVM. So basically, I serve you God,
Speaker 4: And you know, there were set prayers they had to
Speaker 4: say through the day. They were expected to pray the
Speaker 4: Rosary each day. They were expected to pray these special
Speaker 4: Opus Day praise prayers at certain points of the day,
Speaker 4: but I mean as you touched on there. They were
Speaker 4: also expected to perform corporal mortification through the day as well.
Speaker 4: Now like this is kind of I guess from modern audience,
Speaker 4: corporal mortification seems odd and quite medieval, and I guess
Speaker 4: in many ways it is. It's been part of Catholicism
Speaker 4: for hundreds of years, but many orders have decided to
Speaker 4: drop it because they I guess they've seen the potential
Speaker 4: for this being quite damaging, not as physically, but I
Speaker 4: guess also mentally as well.
Speaker 1: It probably turned people off and they were like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is maybe too wild.
Speaker 4: People weren't usually told about this until they decided to
Speaker 4: make the leap, so they were once they made the leap,
Speaker 4: of course, presented to them, as you know, with this
Speaker 4: philosophy of driving for perfection, even though already the founder
Speaker 4: had much bigger ideas for what Opus Day was going
Speaker 4: to be, and he already had this plan of life
Speaker 4: ready to go, but he would only present this to
Speaker 4: them once they made the leap. But coming back to
Speaker 4: the corporate mortification, so Esclibal was was obsessed with this.
Speaker 4: Many people around him were quite worried about him. Actually,
Speaker 4: I think he had yet. He was carrying a lot
Speaker 4: of weight on his shoulders. There had been a lot
Speaker 4: of death in his family. His you know, his siblings
Speaker 4: had died, his father had become bankrupt, and he was
Speaker 4: the oldest son and a lot of weight on his shoulders.
Speaker 4: He was also quite worried about his own weight. He
Speaker 4: he often ate to much and felt guilty about it afterwards.
Speaker 4: And I think this corporal mortification was it was kind
Speaker 4: of his escape almost. It made him feel closer to Christ.
Speaker 4: And so he would whip himself, not just with a
Speaker 4: rope and a whip, but you know, he would attach
Speaker 4: razor blades to the ends of the rope just to
Speaker 4: make mean that much more. He was trying to inflict
Speaker 4: pain on himself, I guess as a punishment or to
Speaker 4: remind himself of the suffering of Christ. He would also
Speaker 4: wear this barbed wire on his leg a few hours
Speaker 4: a day, and sometimes even around his stomach. He would
Speaker 4: deny himself things like water for long periods. I'm sorry,
Speaker 4: what are you going to say?
Speaker 2: I rewatched the beginning of the Da Vinci Code last night,
Speaker 2: and there is a scene where they depict some of
Speaker 2: these practices and it's.
Speaker 3: Very, very uncomfortable to watch.
Speaker 2: And all I could think the whole time was how
Speaker 2: prone to infections that must make one. But what they
Speaker 2: show in that movie, like he was actually doing these things.
Speaker 2: It's not like that part is not necessarily exaggerated. Right, Yes,
Speaker 2: a fire on his leg and is whipping himself with
Speaker 2: I think something attachable.
Speaker 4: I suspected that Vinci COLDI is probably the film is
Speaker 4: exaggerates the practice to a certain extent. But yes, I mean,
Speaker 4: certainly in the case of his free bar, this is
Speaker 4: a guy who was you know, his top was off,
Speaker 4: he was whipping himself and drawing blood. So what you
Speaker 4: say is absolutely right. But what's critical is that, I
Speaker 4: think so he was obsessed with this, and you know,
Speaker 4: he was a free man. He was if he wanted
Speaker 4: to do that, then fine, I'm not sure what it
Speaker 4: tells us about his mental health, but you know whatever, Sure, yeah,
Speaker 4: he basically enforced this among his followers as well. So
Speaker 4: in addition to them having you know, their day almost
Speaker 4: planned by the minute, they were also expected to follow
Speaker 4: in the same form of self punishment that he was doing.
Speaker 4: And so not only was every minute of the day
Speaker 4: taking up with these you know, various obligations, but they
Speaker 4: were I guess in this mentality of I need to
Speaker 4: punish myself like I'm sinful, I'm I'm not worthy in
Speaker 4: some ways. So so I honestly believe in certainly from
Speaker 4: speaking to former members, you know, can really have quite
Speaker 4: a powerful impact on your self worth and just your
Speaker 4: mental health in general. And so I think that was critical,
Speaker 4: I guess, to subduing these people and to I guess,
Speaker 4: suppressing the individuality.
Speaker 2: And listen, I'm not wanting to judge anybody's religious practice,
Speaker 2: but I have to imagine that being in physical discomfort
Speaker 2: or pain at all times or multiple times of the
Speaker 2: day to punish yourself has to wear on your psyche
Speaker 2: and your again, your critical thinking skills, you know, being
Speaker 2: compelled to do this because your leader told you to,
Speaker 2: versus it being something you want to do. And again,
Speaker 2: that's a whole nother conversation. Seems like just ripe for
Speaker 2: you know, getting control.
Speaker 5: Over those people.
Speaker 2: Okay, so from the beginning, this guy, and by the way,
Speaker 2: I've kind of like what you said earlier. I think
Speaker 2: what he created was some very horrible stuff, but impressive
Speaker 2: how motivated he was to get followers and how much
Speaker 2: it actually did grow over time and expanded to numerous countries.
Speaker 2: Because in the beginning you kind of go through the
Speaker 2: history and your book and then there's like stops and starts,
Speaker 2: and people aren't taking them seriously, and then you know,
Speaker 2: people are against the group, but they just like somehow persevere.
Speaker 2: So what is a numerary and what is a supernumerary?
Speaker 4: So initially it was just numery men, and then they
Speaker 4: opened it up to numery women. So the numeriies, I
Speaker 4: guess the kind of elite corps I like to kind
Speaker 4: of call them of Opus Day. These are the people
Speaker 4: that have dedicated their lives to Opus Day. So you know,
Speaker 4: they kind of make these commitments to remain chaste, to
Speaker 4: you know, to to to live lives of poverty. But
Speaker 4: also critically, they almost kind of take a pledge of
Speaker 4: allegiance to the movement, and so you know they're basically
Speaker 4: offering up everything they do to OPA's Day. So these
Speaker 4: are the people. They live in gender segregated communities, so
Speaker 4: and they're not allowed to mix between themselves at all.
Speaker 4: So even today, you know, the big Opper's Day headquarters
Speaker 4: for the United States in New York, this kind of
Speaker 4: seventeen story building in Manhattan. There's one entrance for the
Speaker 4: men and another entrance for the women. And you know
Speaker 4: when I visited, I went to the wrong door. I
Speaker 4: went to the women's door and had this kind of
Speaker 4: this woman look at me through a hatch and say,
Speaker 4: it's not here. You need to go around the corner.
Speaker 5: Wow.
Speaker 4: Son, Yes, even today it's that way. But in the
Speaker 4: nineteen forties, Escaliba basically opened up the organization to a
Speaker 4: much wider membership. So he invented this new class of
Speaker 4: membership called the Supernumeries. So these were people who were
Speaker 4: who were going to be members of Opper's Day and
Speaker 4: who would follow as much as they could the plan
Speaker 4: of life, so the prayers, the mortification, but who would
Speaker 4: be allowed to marry and to have kids, and who
Speaker 4: would be encouraged to just have normal jobs out in
Speaker 4: the world as doctors or teachers or whatever. And these
Speaker 4: were the people that Escribart saw as his gorilla army. Now,
Speaker 4: the Numeries, this highly controlled group is used in turn
Speaker 4: to then control the Supernumeries. So these guys are basically
Speaker 4: allocated a certain number of supernumeries each and they have
Speaker 4: to meet them once a week or once every fortnight,
Speaker 4: and they offer the supernumeriies what's called spiritual direction. So
Speaker 4: it's almost like an extension of confession. So the numeries
Speaker 4: meet with the supernumeries and they say, you know, what's
Speaker 4: going on in your life? Tell me about your job
Speaker 4: and your family. What the super nimate don't know. The
Speaker 4: supernomberi is believe that all the're getting is like guidance
Speaker 4: for how to be better Catholics. But what's actually happening
Speaker 4: is that the numeries are gathering information about the supernumeries
Speaker 4: and they're then they collect report cards on each and
Speaker 4: this information is passed up to the national headquarters. So
Speaker 4: you know, there's this huge database basically of information on
Speaker 4: all of the members, and this is using this information
Speaker 4: the numery members and the directors decide how best I
Speaker 4: guess to use or generally kind of push the supernumerary
Speaker 4: members to go out and I guess achieve the various
Speaker 4: ambitions and desires that OBSTE has for society and for
Speaker 4: the local communities as well. So it's like an Army.
Speaker 4: You know these are you have the generals who are
Speaker 4: in charge of the memories, and then you have these
Speaker 4: kind of I guess these troops who are then in
Speaker 4: charge of shepherding around and the normal people on the
Speaker 4: Grand supermemoration.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the generals have the troop's darkest, deepest secrets,
Speaker 1: which adds a very emotional air.
Speaker 4: Well. What differs Opus Day from groups like you know,
Speaker 4: scientology or others is that this is an organization that's
Speaker 4: being recognized by the Catholic Church and actually there has
Speaker 4: been given a special status within the Catholic Church, so
Speaker 4: it has this legitimacy. So ordinary Catholics welcome the organization
Speaker 4: into their homes because they believe that it's just Catholic Church.
Speaker 4: The Poper's signed off on this, then, how could it
Speaker 4: possibly be bad? And for me, that kind of makes
Speaker 4: this all the more dangerous because they drop their guard.
Speaker 4: They allow their kids to go to opper stay schools,
Speaker 4: not knowing that their kids are being groomed and recruited
Speaker 4: without their knowledge.
Speaker 2: That's the perfect place to segue into how kids are
Speaker 2: being groomed and recruited without their knowledge. Tell us about
Speaker 2: the secret guidelines aspirants. Let's get into that.
Speaker 4: So Opus Day kind of publicly at least says that
Speaker 4: no one is allowed to become a member of OPA's
Speaker 4: Day until they are eighteen, which is the kind of
Speaker 4: you know, the age of consent within the church. But
Speaker 4: that's complete fiction. Basically, Opus Day go targets grooms kids
Speaker 4: you know as young as like eleven, twelve, thirteen, and
Speaker 4: it invites them to well, first of all, it operates schools,
Speaker 4: but outside of the school, it invites kids to like
Speaker 4: youth programs and initiatives like camping weekends and you know,
Speaker 4: film nights, homework clubs, which are run generally by numery
Speaker 4: members who are collecting information on the kids as well.
Speaker 4: I mean, this is not we're not talking about ancient
Speaker 4: We're talking just then about the nineteen thirties. Two years
Speaker 4: ago in Australia, a story can at about a group
Speaker 4: of kids who went to an Upenstay school who were
Speaker 4: invited to a homework club and one of the kids
Speaker 4: fans a set of notes with all of the kids
Speaker 4: shotted down and alongside each name was the memories had
Speaker 4: noted down the weaknesses of each child and also what
Speaker 4: strengths each kid might offer if they were to join
Speaker 4: up a state. This is like in the twenty twenties, Wow,
Speaker 4: a developed country.
Speaker 2: Yeah, crazy, And I'll ask him about that in one second.
Speaker 2: But just to contextualize it, like they're aiming the aim
Speaker 2: of the organization is to have people in very powerful
Speaker 2: and influential positions in society, right, so they can actually
Speaker 2: create a world that looks like what they kind of
Speaker 2: wanted to look like, or what the I guess whoever
Speaker 2: is the leader at that time wants it to look like.
Speaker 2: So is it essentially like a pipeline to identify like
Speaker 2: who should go into government or who should go into
Speaker 2: societal positions?
Speaker 3: Like what's the goal?
Speaker 4: So I think there are two things going on opus day,
Speaker 4: as you rightly point out right from the beginning, Because
Speaker 4: what they want to do is it's a reactionary political movement.
Speaker 4: They want to basically stop any kind of progressive development
Speaker 4: in society. And so what they do is they recruit
Speaker 4: the elite. They're trying to find people who will be
Speaker 4: who are or will be members of government or in
Speaker 4: the judiciary or journalists or whatever. So it's looking, yes,
Speaker 4: to recruit today's elite and tomorrow's elite, which is why
Speaker 4: they go after kids and university students, because they're trying
Speaker 4: to get the cream of the crop and you know,
Speaker 4: the people who will go on to be tomorrow's elite,
Speaker 4: so that they are recruiting the elite. But what they
Speaker 4: also need, I mean, coming back to what we were
Speaker 4: just saying about the numeries and the function of the
Speaker 4: numeeries within the system controlling the supernumeries, manipulating them, they
Speaker 4: also need another kind of They need a constant stream
Speaker 4: of numeriies so that they can control the zupernumery. So
Speaker 4: I think many many times when people are being groomed
Speaker 4: at school when they're still teenagers, it's with a view
Speaker 4: to pushing them into becoming numery members of Op's day.
Speaker 4: Because of course if you're a kid, you're moreppliable and
Speaker 4: you're may be more open to dedicating your life to
Speaker 4: this movement. You don't know what's going on, I mean,
Speaker 4: as we know, I Screba said, don't don't target people
Speaker 4: who are too old because they're going to ask too
Speaker 4: many questions. They're going to almost two wise, you need
Speaker 4: tea them when they're young. And that's precisely what's going
Speaker 4: on here, and this happens, you know, this happens in
Speaker 4: the US as well. I mean, Opper Stay operates various
Speaker 4: schools in Washington, Chicago, Boston. In fact, it has a
Speaker 4: plan to expand to another twenty US states of the
Speaker 4: next few years. Oh my gosh, where it will be
Speaker 4: doing precisely this, it will be it will be grooming,
Speaker 4: targeting young children who officially won't be allowed to become
Speaker 4: members until they're eighteen, but will be basically earmarked for
Speaker 4: becoming memories. And yeah, as you mentioned before, there's they're
Speaker 4: given this internal kind of tag. They're called aspirants, so
Speaker 4: they're not officially members, but they are aspirant members.
Speaker 2: And there are instances of sexual abuse occurring in various
Speaker 2: programs in different places, right.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, like to be fer to Obbos Day.
Speaker 4: You know, sexual abuse has happened all across the Catholic Church,
Speaker 4: and in fact happens all across society.
Speaker 3: So I don't think it's not unique to Yeah, it.
Speaker 4: Isn't unique, and from what I've seen, I mean, it's
Speaker 4: it's hard to know for sure, but the problem of
Speaker 4: sexual abuse doesn't seem that much greater in Stay. You know,
Speaker 4: compared to other parts of the church or even other
Speaker 4: parts of society. But what I like, which is which
Speaker 4: is still a lot, absolutely, and I don't want to
Speaker 4: diminish the suffering of people who in through this. But
Speaker 4: but what I think is kind of special about oppos Day.
Speaker 4: They're so obsessed with protecting the reputation of the movement
Speaker 4: that often these things are covered up and the organization
Speaker 4: goes to extreme lengths to distance itself from everything that's
Speaker 4: happening in its name around the world. So the numery
Speaker 4: members that live around the world that are kind of
Speaker 4: going out there recruiting kids and I guess, you know,
Speaker 4: seeking to manipulate and control the supernumerary members. They're following
Speaker 4: a set guidelines that are sent from Rome, many of
Speaker 4: which were either written by the founder himself or by
Speaker 4: his successes. So they're following out, you know, these kind
Speaker 4: of strict guidelines. What whither they're doing on the ground,
Speaker 4: They're very much encouraged to say, we're doing this as individuals,
Speaker 4: and any initiatives they operate have nothing legally or officially
Speaker 4: to do with up as Day, So it kind of
Speaker 4: Opus Day. The organization is able to wash its hands
Speaker 4: of any abuse or any criminality or anything that happens,
Speaker 4: because it just says, I don't know. All we do
Speaker 4: is we just offer spiritual guidance. And I think, you know,
Speaker 4: in the book I mentioned this, the sexual abuse of
Speaker 4: I think he was an eleven year old boy at
Speaker 4: the time by a numery and he reported this to
Speaker 4: up As Day and Elpu's Day should have reported this
Speaker 4: to the Vatican according to the church's own rules. But
Speaker 4: because the abuse had taken place at this camp that
Speaker 4: was run by an arms length company that was not legally,
Speaker 4: you know, anything to do with up As Day, but
Speaker 4: which in fact was completely run by up As Day,
Speaker 4: they just said, oh no, sorry, it's got nothing to
Speaker 4: do with us. We don't need to report this to
Speaker 4: that can because whatever happened happened, you know, at this
Speaker 4: thing that was run by this nonprofit.
Speaker 2: That and.
Speaker 1: Already the critical thinking is so cut off because it's
Speaker 1: like it should be reported to the police, but we
Speaker 1: and from the religion that I come from as well,
Speaker 1: it's like we'll give it to.
Speaker 5: The higher ups and they will deal with that.
Speaker 2: I think one thing that is important to note sexual
Speaker 2: abuse aside, because you know, we've heard the story before
Speaker 2: protecting the reputation of the church over the children. Is
Speaker 2: the hospitality courses which I've been putting in quotation marks.
Speaker 2: Can you tell us who Catherine? I'm going to say
Speaker 2: her name wrong?
Speaker 3: Tsier was.
Speaker 4: My French is equally bad, so I'm not even sure
Speaker 4: I know how to pronounce. And I actually when I
Speaker 4: read the audiobook, I had some approaching me on how
Speaker 4: to say. So. In the nineteen forties, Escalibar he basically
Speaker 4: hit on what was an amazing kind of business model
Speaker 4: for OPS Day. So he set up all of these
Speaker 4: student residences all over the country, which yes, were just
Speaker 4: normal student residences, but which also doubled up as recruitment centers.
Speaker 4: So it was a way of getting men and women
Speaker 4: under one roof. So obviously gender segregated men in one
Speaker 4: place women and a place where they could be monitored
Speaker 4: and they could report cards could be filled out from them,
Speaker 4: and they could very efficiently recruit. But the residencies needed staff.
Speaker 4: They needed cooks and cleaners, and Elpus Day was spending
Speaker 4: large amounts of money on hiring women largely to cook
Speaker 4: and clean and basically serve meals. The students that were
Speaker 4: living there, who were paying the kind of bed and board.
Speaker 4: But then Escalibar hits on this idea of Okay, until now,
Speaker 4: we've been recruiting the elites, and tomorrow or as elite,
Speaker 4: what if we created this new kind of subclass of membership.
Speaker 4: Will we recruit the domestic workers and we get them
Speaker 4: to join the movement, And just like the numeries who
Speaker 4: are expected to give over all of their wages to
Speaker 4: uppers Day, what about we get these women to also
Speaker 4: give the wages to us as well. So effectively, what
Speaker 4: he created was this pool of free labor. So opu
Speaker 4: Ste was paying these women. But because they were now
Speaker 4: these what they called numery servants, they later changed to
Speaker 4: them because I guess the pr and that name wasn't
Speaker 4: so great, they changed the name to numerary assistance. They
Speaker 4: were receiving their pay from Opus Day and then they
Speaker 4: were giving it straight back. So Opusta had all of
Speaker 4: these women who are basically providing you know, free domestic service, cooking,
Speaker 4: cleaning for the organization. Screwball was so pleased for him
Speaker 4: with himself, after having you know, thought this up, he said,
Speaker 4: and I paraphrased, basically, he said, this is the greatest gift.
Speaker 4: God has given us this, you know, free supply of labor.
Speaker 4: And it's important to understand that it was confined to women.
Speaker 4: You know, even back in the nineteen forties, there were
Speaker 4: still there were men who were doing domestic service. You
Speaker 4: had you know, butlers and gardeners and drivers and stuff.
Speaker 4: But for some reason, Escreba chells that he wouldn't recruit
Speaker 4: men for this subclass. It would only be women. I
Speaker 4: don't know whether that was because he thought they were
Speaker 4: more pliable or whatever. And this goes on today. Like
Speaker 4: so there Opus Stay is recruiting elite members of society,
Speaker 4: but at the same time it's targeting underprivileged girls from
Speaker 4: usually in poor countries and selling them this idea that
Speaker 4: they can serve God by becoming domestic servants for Opus
Speaker 4: Stay inside OLPA Stay centers and so all around the
Speaker 4: world there are these hospitality schools that are set up
Speaker 4: were Opus Day goes out to local communities and says, hey, yeah,
Speaker 4: you know, your prospects here are not great. Why don't
Speaker 4: you come to the city with us and come and
Speaker 4: join this school. We'll teach you how to cook, and
Speaker 4: we'll teach you how to work in the hospitality industry.
Speaker 4: You'll get all of these qualifications and then you can
Speaker 4: go on and get a great job in the city
Speaker 4: in the hospitality sector. Once the girls are taken away
Speaker 4: from their families and living at the school, many of them,
Speaker 4: you know, they're still teenagers at this stage that are
Speaker 4: then targeted, groomed into joining the movement and becoming these
Speaker 4: numerary assistants. I've met many of these women, and yeah,
Speaker 4: the tales they tell are absolutely horrendous. You know, they're
Speaker 4: told God has chosen you for this calling. If you
Speaker 4: turn your back on God and you choose not to
Speaker 4: do this, then you will go to hell. Your entire
Speaker 4: family will go to hell. You know that the manipulation
Speaker 4: of these young girls who are taken out of their environments,
Speaker 4: you know where they can go back and get supports,
Speaker 4: they're just inside these schools, is absolutely horrendous.
Speaker 2: And Catherine Tissier was recruited at fourteen, pressured into doing
Speaker 2: religious activities that were not advertised in the beginning, completely controlled,
Speaker 2: basically isolated from her parents, and then they put her
Speaker 2: on a bunch of like a cocktail of drugs and
Speaker 2: she was like deathly skinny, and finally when she saw
Speaker 2: her parents, they were like, what's happening? And so it
Speaker 2: begs the question, how many other girls and women has
Speaker 2: this happened to and how has there not been widespread
Speaker 2: accountability for this, I mean has there So, just to
Speaker 2: pick up on.
Speaker 4: The on the use of prescription drugs, the ranks of
Speaker 4: OPUS day, the numery ranks of OPUS day, and the
Speaker 4: numerary assistant ranks of Elpus Day are absolutely riddled with
Speaker 4: mental illness, and OPUS Day often sends people who are
Speaker 4: showing signs of mental illnes us to an open stay
Speaker 4: doctor who prescribes them with a cocktail of of medication
Speaker 4: two certainly from the women and the men. Actually, because
Speaker 4: this happens to Maile memories too, that it isn't part
Speaker 4: of a program that's designed to help them get better.
Speaker 4: It's usually just a way of covering up the symptoms
Speaker 4: so that they continue, they can continue recruiting and carrying
Speaker 4: out their roles for the organization. So to come back
Speaker 4: to your point there, I mean, people are starting to
Speaker 4: wake up to what's happening. So, just a few days
Speaker 4: ago ago, federal prosecutors in Argentina actually filed formal accusations
Speaker 4: against Dopper's Day, and in particular for four open stay
Speaker 4: priests who would run the organization in Argentina for having
Speaker 4: trafficked teenage girls. People standing the alarm on this for years.
Speaker 4: I mean, the case in Argentina, I write, you know,
Speaker 4: although obviously there'll be more recent developments, but I write
Speaker 4: about this in my book, and I travel to Argentina
Speaker 4: to meet with many of the women. There were forty
Speaker 4: two women who who are part of this case. But
Speaker 4: this is happening and has happened all over the world.
Speaker 4: I know from my research and investigation that Opus Day
Speaker 4: was operating similar schools. So it is operating similar schools
Speaker 4: in places like Nigeria, the Philippines, Belgium.
Speaker 5: It's beyond comprehension.
Speaker 4: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I want to talk about Leonard Leo and the influence
Speaker 2: in American politics. Everything that you're describing that is coercive
Speaker 2: and abusive seems to come back to this same point
Speaker 2: of like, we need more money and we need more
Speaker 2: power and influence in society. Tell us who Leonard Leo
Speaker 2: is and what the federalist society is.
Speaker 4: Okay, So, in order to expand around the world, Opus
Speaker 4: Day over the years needed money and for a large
Speaker 4: part of the book is dedicated to the story of
Speaker 4: how oppers Day basically hijacked this banking in the nineteen
Speaker 4: fifties and Spain and turned it into a cash machine,
Speaker 4: which which financed, which directly financed the creation of this
Speaker 4: network of hospitality schools around the world and many other
Speaker 4: kind of normal schools and student residences to help it recruit.
Speaker 4: So it's always courted power, it's always courted money. And
Speaker 4: you know, in Washington, d C. It's really plowed huge
Speaker 4: amounts of resources into penetrating the DC political and judicial scenes,
Speaker 4: you know, and it's been quite successful in doing that.
Speaker 4: Former Supreme Court Justice Antoninscleer was a regular at the
Speaker 4: uppers Day retreats that were held outside of Washington. He
Speaker 4: was he was a he was a big fan of
Speaker 4: Oppers Day. I don't believe he was a member, but
Speaker 4: he was certainly a regular at the retreats and received
Speaker 4: a certain amount of spiritual guidance as well from from
Speaker 4: Opu's Day. But in more recent years, Opus Day seems
Speaker 4: to have really kind of cosied up to a number
Speaker 4: of very influential people on the conservative right of the
Speaker 4: political spectrum, including mister Lendon Leo, I mean mister lend Leo.
Speaker 4: He So, this is a guy who is credited with
Speaker 4: having orchestrated a conservative takeover of the Supreme Courts and
Speaker 4: is credited with having had possibly the most the biggest
Speaker 4: impact in the overturning of Rovue Wade. So this guy
Speaker 4: is was invited onto the board of the Opera's Day
Speaker 4: center in central Washington, a place called the Catholic Information Center,
Speaker 4: which for many years has very success yessfully recruited congress
Speaker 4: men and women senators you know, you know, hotshot lawyers
Speaker 4: and lobbyists. And mister mister Leo says that he isn't
Speaker 4: a member, and I perfectly believe that, But what opens
Speaker 4: Dare has done is certainly kind of entice linared Leo
Speaker 4: into its orbits, and and Leo has in recent years
Speaker 4: become a major donor to Open Stay and he's very
Speaker 4: supportive of many Open Day initiatives, including the one I
Speaker 4: mentioned mentioned earlier, of you know, this plan to basically
Speaker 4: expand the Open Stay school network to another twenty states.
Speaker 1: I bet he is, because my mind goes to, well,
Speaker 1: they now have all of his secrets. He's probably confessed
Speaker 1: things to him and then I think retreats and I'm wondering, like,
Speaker 1: is this a place where some of these women are
Speaker 1: taking care of these men in ways that can be
Speaker 1: used in blackmail?
Speaker 5: I mean, it goes so deep.
Speaker 1: There's so many rabbit holes that I know we don't
Speaker 1: have answers to.
Speaker 4: But I think that's pure speculation.
Speaker 5: I have like I'm making this up in my head.
Speaker 4: And I think even within the kind of and so
Speaker 4: Leo isn't a member of OPPERS Day, but even for
Speaker 4: members of even for the supernumerary members of UPS Day
Speaker 4: that are spilling out the heart to the numery that's
Speaker 4: been assigned to them for the spiritual guidance, I think
Speaker 4: they're unaware that that information is being collected on them.
Speaker 4: So I don't think it's a kind of blackmail thing.
Speaker 4: I think what it is the reason for collecting the information,
Speaker 4: I think is more so that the higher ups can
Speaker 4: work out how best to basically push the open Staate
Speaker 4: networks in Washington or wherever it might be in the
Speaker 4: right direction, so that maybe these two guys we could
Speaker 4: encourage them to meet because they might be able to
Speaker 4: help us with this initiative or whatever. So it's more
Speaker 4: of a gentle kind of pushing people together rather than saying, hey,
Speaker 4: we've got this information on you, you better do what
Speaker 4: we say. I don't believe there are any orders coming
Speaker 4: from the top, but what the Stay higher ups are
Speaker 4: trying to do is engineer the people within the orbit,
Speaker 4: but basically advance various causes. Leo, I'm absolutely certain, is
Speaker 4: acting off his own own initiative. But I think his
Speaker 4: proximity in this over Stay world, you know, I wouldn't
Speaker 4: be surprised if he was being constantly kind of bed
Speaker 4: you know, he's reassured that what you're doing is right,
Speaker 4: and yeah, you know this is great in the service
Speaker 4: of the church. It's kind of that kind of subtle
Speaker 4: kind of nudge. And I think that that is going on.
Speaker 2: And Leonard Leo is I would say he's a manipulator,
Speaker 2: maybe more than a manipulated. I mean, maybe both things
Speaker 2: are happening at once. But there's so many articles about
Speaker 2: him recently, and you can speak to this more from
Speaker 2: the Financial Times just a month Agooh it said he's
Speaker 2: making a billion dollar push to quote crush liberal dominance
Speaker 2: across corporate America in the country's news and entertainment sectors.
Speaker 3: His quote says, we need.
Speaker 2: To crush liberal dominance where it's most insidious, so we'll
Speaker 2: direct resources to build talent and capital formation pipelines in
Speaker 2: the areas of news and entertainment where left wing extremism
Speaker 2: is most evident. He is making people pay price for
Speaker 2: putting extreme left wing ideology ahead of consumers. He's basically
Speaker 2: been advocating for the overturn over vweight right, like this
Speaker 2: kind of anti LGBTQ marriage law, like basically like ultra
Speaker 2: conservative values. He is responsible for a significant amount of money,
Speaker 2: highly significant amount of money going toward funding campaigns for
Speaker 2: conservative justices and lawmakers who are in a position to
Speaker 2: like promote these sort of hyper Christian values in the world.
Speaker 3: Is that accurate? Did I say that correctly?
Speaker 4: Yeah? So, basically a few years ago he a very
Speaker 4: large donor to at Eralist Society where he was working.
Speaker 4: Lee seems to have convinced this guy, a guy called
Speaker 4: Barry said, I think is how you pronounce it, Barry Side,
Speaker 4: who was a billionaire. He convinced this guy to leave
Speaker 4: his money to Leo and his network of kind of foundations,
Speaker 4: and so you know, overnight, Leonard Leelle suddenly had this
Speaker 4: one point six billion dollar war chest too at his disposal.
Speaker 4: And yes, he's talked in recent weeks and months about
Speaker 4: how he plans to use that, and I think his
Speaker 4: exact words were, he wants to crush liberal dominance. Now, look,
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm not saying that this is a plan
Speaker 4: orchestrated by opper Stay or that up Stay is telling
Speaker 4: him what to do, not in anyway, but there are
Speaker 4: certain parallels to what he's trying to do convined to
Speaker 4: what Escaliba was trying to do, or what or how
Speaker 4: Escaliba envisioned Opus day. So remember what we're saying at
Speaker 4: the beginning of the of the of the show that
Speaker 4: Escobar wanted his followers to infiltrate every element of society,
Speaker 4: including media, education, judiciary. And that's precisely what lenardly I
Speaker 4: was trying to do with his new Tenneo network and
Speaker 4: with this money. It's he's it's a reengineering of society
Speaker 4: with people and ideas that you know are basically kind
Speaker 4: of fueled by his kind of this reactionary agenda of
Speaker 4: crushing progressivism and liberalism. And you know, it's it's about
Speaker 4: turning the clock back. Certainly in the last five I
Speaker 4: think it's five Supreme Court's appointees. He's had a hand
Speaker 4: in their appointment, but I think not more perhaps more
Speaker 4: critically given you know, in the weeks ahead, is is
Speaker 4: leonardly Our's links also to Project twenty twenty five, which
Speaker 4: which is similar to his whole TENEO networking that it's
Speaker 4: a re engineering of I guess in the case of
Speaker 4: Project twenty twenty five, of federal government in order to
Speaker 4: kind of push across liberal dominance and to you know,
Speaker 4: basically it's a reactionary agenda. Interestingly, as well, another opens
Speaker 4: Dale link here Kevin Roberts, who's the president of the
Speaker 4: Heritage Foundation and the person who has basically cooked up
Speaker 4: this whole plan, the Project twenty twenty five. He's a
Speaker 4: regular attendee at the Opps Day Center in Washington as well.
Speaker 4: He gets his from the Olper's Day priests there. You know.
Speaker 4: I mean, people might say this is like a conspiracy theory,
Speaker 4: but there are all of these kind of parallels and
Speaker 4: it's just very interesting that Opus Day it seems to
Speaker 4: have very much, very successfully infiltrated this kind of radical
Speaker 4: conservative circles within Washington, across politics, across the lobbying industry,
Speaker 4: think tanks across the judiciary, and I think it's not
Speaker 4: an exaggeration to say that Olpius Day's philosophy is now
Speaker 4: kind of a dominant one among certainly among the Catholic
Speaker 4: members of that kind of radical conservative elite.
Speaker 2: And so it's possible that there's just this meeting of
Speaker 2: the mud, like shared ideology coming together because they want
Speaker 2: the same things versus like a cabal of right wing people.
Speaker 2: But the connections are there, the overlap and the people
Speaker 2: are there, and ultimately, like the retrograde, anachronistic societal goals
Speaker 2: are there and are being enacted right now before our
Speaker 2: very eyes, with a very large amount of money and power.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Right, And people are going to have to read the
Speaker 1: book because it's great and there's a lot about dark
Speaker 1: money in it that is very interesting that Gareth probably
Speaker 1: can't really get into. But yeah, there's a lot there.
Speaker 1: Like I said, for me, it opens a lot of
Speaker 1: rabbit holes. I could really go into this for a
Speaker 1: very long time.
Speaker 4: That's a great plot. You sell a book better better
Speaker 4: than I do, thank you very much.
Speaker 2: Where does everything stand with Opus stay now? Do you
Speaker 2: think reform is possible?
Speaker 3: Where are we at Okay.
Speaker 4: OPA Stay is at a critical juncture. It's facing the
Speaker 4: biggest crisis possibly to it to its existence ever well
Speaker 4: certainly well it's only been around for almost one hundred
Speaker 4: years in its one hundred year history, so the pulp
Speaker 4: is acutely aware of the abuses and manipulation that have
Speaker 4: been taking place within Opa Stay, that have been taking
Speaker 4: place in the name of the church. Let's not let's
Speaker 4: not forget, and he is currently making some very delicate steps.
Speaker 4: He knows how powerful op Stay is within the church.
Speaker 4: So I believe the Pope is trying to to address
Speaker 4: the abuses and trying to reign in the organization, but
Speaker 4: he's doing it in a very delicate way. I understand
Speaker 4: were likely to see some kind of big announcement in
Speaker 4: the next few weeks, So I'm not sure what that
Speaker 4: might be. Whether he's going to intervene in the organization
Speaker 4: like he did with the Legionaries of Christ a few
Speaker 4: years ago, or whether you know, I don't know, maybe
Speaker 4: he'll change the internal rules of Oste. I don't know,
Speaker 4: but but I think something is coming. But also like
Speaker 4: it's coming back to whether Opus Day can reform. I
Speaker 4: think Opus Day has been given numerous chances to address
Speaker 4: the abuses and manipulation that are at the heart of
Speaker 4: the organization, and time and time again, it's leadership has
Speaker 4: proven unwilling and unable to push through any any meaningful reforms.
Speaker 4: And I think there's a very good reason for that,
Speaker 4: and that's because, and this goes back to the founding
Speaker 4: of Opus Day, Escalibar told his followers that he'd received
Speaker 4: this vision directly from God, and he wrote this vision
Speaker 4: down in like in kind of intricate detail. So there
Speaker 4: are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pages detailing how
Speaker 4: Open Stay should operate and how the system of abuse
Speaker 4: and manipulation should be carried out. And so but today's leadership,
Speaker 4: to challenge anything about that system is to challenge the
Speaker 4: vision which supposedly came. To challenge anything about Opus Day
Speaker 4: is to challenge the word of God. And so they've
Speaker 4: got themselves into this bind. So this is now this
Speaker 4: vision that they've sold to the membership has been great
Speaker 4: in terms of enticing new members in and convincing ordinary
Speaker 4: Catholics to become members of OPS Day. But what it's
Speaker 4: also done is restrict its room for maneuver. It now
Speaker 4: can't address these clear examples of abuse, because to do
Speaker 4: so is to question the fundamental foundation of the organization.
Speaker 2: What I can liken it too is Mormonism because I
Speaker 2: grew up leaving Joseph Smith, found the church and spoke
Speaker 2: directly to God. God a visions same kind of thing.
Speaker 2: But then subsequent profits would be like, oh, actually God
Speaker 2: changed is mine? Like, are there leaders who claim to
Speaker 2: also be you know, in some form of communication with Gon?
Speaker 4: No, No, not at all.
Speaker 5: And I'm Mary cute, I too the problem.
Speaker 4: I think so far so he's had. We're now onto
Speaker 4: Eskalba's third successor, and each successor is kind of elected
Speaker 4: on the promise to continue things as they are and
Speaker 4: to continue the great work of God. I mean, maybe
Speaker 4: one day they will come a day. I mean I think,
Speaker 4: I don't think. I think things will happen before then.
Speaker 4: I think, you know, things are coming out that can't
Speaker 4: be brushed under the carpet. Yeah, I think there's going
Speaker 4: to be some kind of reckoning coming for OPUS Day.
Speaker 4: But let's assume that these things haven't come out and
Speaker 4: or that nothing is done. Maybe one day there could
Speaker 4: be a reforming leader of OP Day. But it's kind
Speaker 4: of difficult because they've created such a cult of personality
Speaker 4: around the founder.
Speaker 5: Yeah, even if there was.
Speaker 4: A desire to address some of these problems, it's almost
Speaker 4: ingrained into every member. Just yeah, I mean maybe, I'm
Speaker 4: sure you guys have an interesting perspective on this as well.
Speaker 4: You know, the worship of the leader, and you know
Speaker 4: we not being able to question anything. I mean, that's
Speaker 4: something that's common to so many cults, right, I mean,
Speaker 4: I guess that's an essential characteristic of a cult. Almost.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I will be very curious to see what transpires
Speaker 2: in the next few years and where and when there
Speaker 2: will be accountability if any I hope Leonard Leo decides
Speaker 2: to retire onto an island somewhere and stop intervening in
Speaker 2: American politics. Can you remind us the name of your
Speaker 2: book and where people can find it.
Speaker 4: The name of my book is simply Opus, and you
Speaker 4: can find it in all good bookstores online and also
Speaker 4: in your local library. I guess I've reluctantly been dragged
Speaker 4: back onto Twitter to or so, I guess it's not
Speaker 4: cool to promote the book and to get interact with
Speaker 4: people out there. So I'm at Gareth Underscore goal. So
Speaker 4: it's g A r e t h underscore g O
Speaker 4: r E perfect.
Speaker 3: Thank you, thanks so much for joining us. I wish
Speaker 3: we could talk for three more hours.
Speaker 4: I know.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Okay, thank you for having me.
Speaker 5: Wow, that was a great interview. Thank you, Gareth.
Speaker 3: Thank you Gareth.
Speaker 1: So I have a takeaway from this that I want
Speaker 1: to get your thoughts on, Lola. I mean, I have
Speaker 1: a million takeaways. Like we said, we could talk to
Speaker 1: him for days. But one of the real big red
Speaker 1: flags and the story for me was how it all
Speaker 1: began and this self sacrifice way of thinking and living
Speaker 1: that I think just lends itself so easily to abuse.
Speaker 1: And in the two by two culture which I grew
Speaker 1: up in, it's called dying to self and that was
Speaker 1: something we were supposed to do every single day, and
Speaker 1: it really shuts down a huge part of your mind, body, soul,
Speaker 1: everything because you learn to not trust your instincts, to
Speaker 1: not want what you want, to tell yourself no, and
Speaker 1: it's all kind of shrouded in this umbrella of and
Speaker 1: that's what God wants.
Speaker 3: Wait, so what was what did that look like in
Speaker 3: your religion?
Speaker 1: Well, in my religion, it looked like you didn't wear
Speaker 1: what you wanted to wear. You couldn't wear makeup, no jewelry,
Speaker 1: you couldn't watch movies or television denying. Yeah, don't follow
Speaker 1: your dreams, like be something small and humble and modest,
Speaker 1: and it does stand out.
Speaker 5: Die to yourself every.
Speaker 3: Day, right right, right?
Speaker 5: And some people find that harder than others. I was
Speaker 5: not able to die to myself at all ever. I
Speaker 5: just felt guilty that I couldn't. But I would.
Speaker 1: You have my friends meet me at school with normal
Speaker 1: clothes and makeup, and I'd watch movies when I spent
Speaker 1: the night at their house. But whereas other people were
Speaker 1: actually following the rules, right.
Speaker 5: It's a little bit harder for them to find their bearings.
Speaker 2: Some shit, right well, I mean there's a reason that
Speaker 2: colts have a dress code so much of the time, right,
Speaker 2: Like the way when you're allowed to express yourself as
Speaker 2: an individual and do things that you just think are fun,
Speaker 2: are that make you feel good? Having an individual self
Speaker 2: makes you less controllable for the group.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: There's something about that self sacrifice that you see a
Speaker 1: lot too. And like Kundalini yoga or like dying to
Speaker 1: your ego, that just puts a dagger in your identity
Speaker 1: and you feel so guilty for wanting to be free
Speaker 1: of whatever thought system you're under, because it just feels
Speaker 1: like self will I'm not I'm being selfish. It's just
Speaker 1: it's a really hard blow to overcome, so right, you know.
Speaker 2: I wonder, I'm so curious about the emotion of guilt
Speaker 2: because obviously, like basically every cult has their members feeling
Speaker 2: guilty all the time, like they're not doing enough or
Speaker 2: not good enough, or not achieving some impossible, unachievable standard.
Speaker 2: And I wonder, like, you know, we talk about how
Speaker 2: anxiety hijacks our bodies and like traa like if we're
Speaker 2: triggered into a past trauma we have PTSD, like that
Speaker 2: hijacks our bodies.
Speaker 3: I'd be very curious to.
Speaker 2: Know more about, like what guilt does to our bodies
Speaker 2: and how that impacts our critical thinking because anything that
Speaker 2: you know activates you and makes you disregulated is gonna
Speaker 2: mess with your ability to think clearly right, So surely
Speaker 2: guilt would fall under that as well. I mean, I
Speaker 2: haven't thought of that about that before, but.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it totally shuts down the prefrontal lobes it's
Speaker 1: like it's like the opposite of taking mushrooms. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I could just when he was speaking about, you know,
Speaker 1: the women that are doing some of this domestic labor
Speaker 1: and under so many rules and stuff. If I was
Speaker 1: one of these women, I'm just gonna focus on the
Speaker 1: women that are kind of being trafficked, are being domestic
Speaker 1: I'm gonna just call it exploit friends. Yeah, I could
Speaker 1: see almost being brainwashed to thinking, well, this is dying
Speaker 1: to self, this is serving the Lord, and maybe somebody
Speaker 1: who has my best interest at heart telling me like no,
Speaker 1: you're being abused would feel like the actual abuse of
Speaker 1: scary narrative, like that was the going against God, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.
Speaker 2: I mean, and that's the manipulation, that's like, that's how
Speaker 2: they try it deep.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's so deep.
Speaker 3: Oh, they're so good. Their cults are so good at
Speaker 3: doing what they do. Those fuckers.
Speaker 1: Well, we have lots more to talk to you about,
Speaker 1: lots more cults coming up.
Speaker 5: They're never ending. That's uh, I guess one.
Speaker 3: It's true.
Speaker 5: One thing we got. We hope we see you again
Speaker 5: here next week.
Speaker 1: And as always, remember to follow your gut watch.
Speaker 2: Out for rad Fox and never Ever Trust Me Bye.
Speaker 2: Trust Me is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and
Speaker 2: Steve Delemator.
Speaker 1: The Special Things to Stay para and.
Speaker 3: Her theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.
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