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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or shoot us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me, Trust trust Me.

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Speaker 4: I'm like a swat person. I've never lied to you.

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Speaker 2: I've never had a live If you think that one

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Speaker 2: person has all the answers, don't.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to trust Me.

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Speaker 2: The podcast about cults Extreme belief of manipulation from two

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Speaker 2: Da Vinci d coders who've actually experienced it. I'm Lila

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Speaker 2: Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth. Today our guest is Gareth Gore,

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Speaker 2: journalist and author whose new book Opus is about Opus Day,

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Speaker 2: an ultraconservative Catholic sect, it's harmful practices, its history of

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Speaker 2: dark money, and its connections to modern day right wing

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Speaker 2: American politics. He's going to talk to us about how

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Speaker 2: he came to the story while investigating the shady practices

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Speaker 2: at bank in Spain, the history of the group and

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Speaker 2: its leader's goals of recruiting elite members of society and

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Speaker 2: its cultic practices like living in gender segregated homes with

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Speaker 2: the highly controlled life and doing body mortification rituals.

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Speaker 1: Yikes, And he is just so funny. He found the

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Speaker 1: story from doing financial journalism.

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Speaker 5: It's free, it makes no sense.

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Speaker 3: It's a weird way to get there.

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Speaker 5: It's such a journey.

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Speaker 1: He'll also tell us about how members with groom kids

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Speaker 1: as young as eleven or twelve to become people of

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Speaker 1: influence in the group, How there are a number of

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Speaker 1: reports of trafficking low income young women and girls in

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Speaker 1: various countries to exploit their labor at opus dairy treats,

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Speaker 1: How some people were fed a cocktail of prescription drugs

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Speaker 1: they didn't need, and whether there's been any accountability for

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Speaker 1: these practices, which the group tries to officially distance themselves from.

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Speaker 2: Plus it ties to prominent US conservative activist Leonard Leo,

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Speaker 2: who's had an outside influence in naming three of our

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Speaker 2: current Supreme Court appointees, and who's tied to Project twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty five seeking to quote crush liberal dominance.

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Speaker 3: There's so this is jam packed.

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Speaker 2: So much we cover in this interview, and we still

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Speaker 2: didn't cover so much of what.

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Speaker 5: He in the book.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we might have to have him back on.

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Speaker 2: We did talk about that after the interview, but yes,

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Speaker 2: lots of stuff in here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like you said, it is the real life DaVinci code,

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Speaker 1: you know, and he really found himself in quite a

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Speaker 1: little quandary.

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Speaker 5: And it's very interesting.

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Speaker 2: I know, I know, I've been telling so many people

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Speaker 2: since we did this interview, did you know Opus Day

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Speaker 2: was real?

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Speaker 3: Did you know?

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Speaker 2: Have you heard about Opus Day? I'm like a total

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Speaker 2: I'm like obsessed with it now. I had no idea

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Speaker 2: so well before we go into opus territory. Yeah, Meg, Megan,

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Speaker 2: what is your cultiest thing of the week.

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Speaker 1: Well, I talk about it a little bit in our interview.

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Speaker 1: I keep referencing the Octopus. It's on Netflix. It's called

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Speaker 1: American Conspiracy, the Octopus Murders, and I did not have

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Speaker 1: high hopes for it. Turns out it's one of the creepiest,

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Speaker 1: most interesting things I've ever seen. If you're into that

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Speaker 1: kind of stuff, fast forward me talking and jump right

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Speaker 1: into it. If you're not, then listen to me now,

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Speaker 1: because basically at the end you go on this whole

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Speaker 1: long journey with him, and every rock you turnover, there's

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Speaker 1: so much dirt. There's crime, bribes, and there's murders, and

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Speaker 1: there's all of these things.

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Speaker 3: But at the very.

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Speaker 1: End, he kind of is just like, I can't live

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Speaker 1: in this world where I think about it as all

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Speaker 1: connecting and not trust anything.

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Speaker 5: And maybe somebody.

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Speaker 1: Else would take a different takeaway from it, but that's

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Speaker 1: the takeaway that I got, which is just like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you can't even if you're like, damn like every industry.

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Speaker 1: I also watched the p Diddy doc on TMZ because

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Speaker 1: it's in the mister What's the guy from the guy

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Speaker 1: from WWE?

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Speaker 5: There's a new doc about him.

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Speaker 2: Where he was just like McMahon, Vince McMahon, sex trafficking scandal,

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Speaker 2: that guy.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I haven't.

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Speaker 3: Heard anything about this.

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Speaker 5: I don't know. I didn't watch it.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's this whole dock on him where he

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Speaker 1: was just blurring the lines between his character and TV.

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Speaker 1: And then the boss in real life been doing unspeakable

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Speaker 1: things to people, and you know, leaders do that a lot,

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Speaker 1: and it's easy to just be like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: every single thing in the world has been overtaken by

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Speaker 1: predators and everything's connected and they're all crossing sex slaves

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Speaker 1: to each other. It's like easy for me to go there,

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Speaker 1: and I don't want to live in that place.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, yeah, no, I think that's a really good takeaway.

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Speaker 2: And also like there are predators everywhere, but there are

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Speaker 2: predators everywhere because humans inevitably will produce predators, not because

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Speaker 2: all predators.

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Speaker 3: Are conspiring together to you know.

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Speaker 2: Like but but I think it's the point you made

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Speaker 2: is more important, which is like we talked to former

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Speaker 2: conspiracy theories about that before, Like it doesn't serve you

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Speaker 2: in any way, Like if something is unjust take an

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Speaker 2: action and do something about it. And if you don't

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Speaker 2: have any power, then why live in that constant state

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Speaker 2: of distrust and suspicion and anxiety and depression.

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Speaker 1: That's what I've never really heard us say that before,

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Speaker 1: but I'm hearing it now. I Mean, I get if

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Speaker 1: you've really made a connection in your brain and are

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Speaker 1: like this is harming people, I have to help that.

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Speaker 5: It might be a little bit tougher to let go.

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Speaker 2: But just for me right now, That's what I'm saying, Like,

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Speaker 2: if you can help, then help, yeah for sure, then.

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Speaker 5: Help yeah for me right now?

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Speaker 1: Little too much of everything crumbling for me too cognitively

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Speaker 1: function in the world, So I'm gonna let some of

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Speaker 1: that go.

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Speaker 5: So the Octopus, I loved it. Watch it. Sorry to

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Speaker 5: give away the end if now you want to see it.

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Speaker 1: I understand that your cultiest thing of the week is

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Speaker 1: going to be more of a monologue.

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Speaker 5: Yes, correct, yes, okay.

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Speaker 2: Yes, sorry, guys, I have another monologue.

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Speaker 3: It's a serious one. Buckle in. But I think it's important.

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Speaker 3: So shall I begin?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Well, it's been a few months since I've

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Speaker 2: talked about Gaza, So for anyone who isn't following the news,

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Speaker 2: Israel has sieged the north of Gaza, where the horrors

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Speaker 2: have been escalating. War in Middle East in general is

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Speaker 2: like ramping up. It's very scary, but there are lots

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Speaker 2: of figures I could name about the staggering number of

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Speaker 2: Palestinians who have been killed since October seventh. The latest

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Speaker 2: estimates from nearly one hundred American health care providers who

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Speaker 2: volunteered in Gaza estimate the death toll not only by bombing,

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Speaker 2: but also indirect methods of death, starvation, lack of health care,

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Speaker 2: to be five point four percent of the entire population

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Speaker 2: of Gaza. That's obviously absolutely staggering. And to be clear,

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Speaker 2: the hostages deserve to come home. No one deserves to

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Speaker 2: live in fear or experience violence either. All people should

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Speaker 2: be allowed to live freely and peacefully, Palestinian and Israeli alike.

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Speaker 2: And I understand and I've witnessed how reactions to this

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Speaker 2: genocide have unfairly and hatefully translated into anti Semitism or

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Speaker 2: conspiracy theories, which should never be the response. And it's

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Speaker 2: appalling that it's twenty twenty four and anyone should have

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Speaker 2: to spend their days afraid of bombs or violent attacks. So,

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Speaker 2: since this is a cult podcast, there's something in particular

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Speaker 2: that I think is important to consider when debating the

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Speaker 2: realities of this war, and that is censorship and control

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Speaker 2: of information.

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Speaker 3: So the first of Robert J.

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Speaker 2: Liften's eight criteria for thought reform is called miliu control,

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Speaker 2: which refers to the control of information and communication within

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Speaker 2: the environment and eventually the individual. So you see this

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Speaker 2: in cults, virtually every cult. The immediate examples that come

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Speaker 2: to mind are scientology or like the People's Temple which

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Speaker 2: was Jonestown. But this is a hallmark of cults. It's

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Speaker 2: trust only us, everyone else is a liar. In a

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Speaker 2: recent episode, we learned about how Maud Zadong cracked down

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Speaker 2: on anyone who had come forward to criticize his regime.

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Speaker 2: In the Soviet Union in World War Two, foreign journalists

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Speaker 2: were allowed in, but only under constant scrutiny and censorship.

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Speaker 2: The same was true of Nazi Germany, who allowed the

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Speaker 2: Associated Press in on the condition that they would submit

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Speaker 2: to censorship and even propaganda. In North Korea, free press

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Speaker 2: is not a thing, and Russia journalists are repeatedly targeted,

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Speaker 2: and Donald Trump has suggested that members of the press

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Speaker 2: who criticize him go to jail.

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Speaker 3: And you see this also in Israel.

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Speaker 2: And I make this point about the government and military

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Speaker 2: systems of Israel, not the people of Israel, because as

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Speaker 2: numbers are thrown back and forth and everyone digs their

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Speaker 2: heels into their existing belief systems, I felt like it

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Speaker 2: was worth explaining one of the big red flags for

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Speaker 2: me personally about implicitly buying into the narratives provided by

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Speaker 2: Netanyahu's far right government and the Israeli military, which before

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Speaker 2: October seventh saw Israeli human rights organizations give up on

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Speaker 2: trying to work with them anymore because of their track

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Speaker 2: record of almost never pursuing investigations against its soldiers' crimes

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Speaker 2: against Palestinians.

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Speaker 3: Even the very well documented ones.

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Speaker 2: So that red flag is the Israeli government's fight against

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Speaker 2: independent journalism, especially when it comes to documenting its impact

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Speaker 2: on the people of Gaza. What does that look like?

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Speaker 3: Okay?

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Speaker 2: Government officials in Israel halted broadcasts of Al Jazeera, one

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Speaker 2: of the central critical voices of its treatment of Palestinians.

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Speaker 2: The IDF recently rated the Al Jazeera offices in the

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Speaker 2: West Bank and shut them down. Foreign journalists have been

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Speaker 2: prevented from entering Gaza to report independently. Here's a quote

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Speaker 2: from cnn dot com. Although the Israeli military has taken

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Speaker 2: international reporters on dozens of embeds with their troops.

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Speaker 3: The report orders on these troops.

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Speaker 2: Have no freedom of movement and are not allowed to

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Speaker 2: speak to Palestinians. The raw footage is also subject to

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Speaker 2: Israeli military censorship. In July, more than seventy media and

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Speaker 2: civil society organizations signed an open letter urging Israel to

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Speaker 2: give journalists independent access to Gaza that included the Associated Press,

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Speaker 2: The Guardian, The New York Times, BBC, CNN, the Washington Post,

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Speaker 2: but no dice, they are not allowed. The Committee to

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Speaker 2: Protect Journalists or the CPGA, says that Israeli authorities now

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Speaker 2: hold the global record for arresting the most journalists per

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Speaker 2: capita in a one year period. Numerous journalists in Gaza

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Speaker 2: have been killed by the IDFs, somewhere in clearly marked vests,

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Speaker 2: and a handful found to have been directly targeted by

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Speaker 2: the IDF Based on evidence gathered and for context, more

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Speaker 2: than one hundred reporters were killed and six months in Gaza.

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Speaker 2: That numbers hire now twenty two in the line of duty.

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Speaker 2: Compare that to sixty three journalists who died over twenty

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Speaker 2: years of the Vietnam War. And my sources on this

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Speaker 2: are the CPJA, Reporters without Borders, and a really very

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Speaker 2: large number of credible news organizations who all have fact

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Speaker 2: checkers in their employee. Haaretz and Israeli newspaper just this

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Speaker 2: week published an editorial titled Israel must stop persecuting journalists

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Speaker 2: and criminalizing the profession. So the question that I hope

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Speaker 2: we all ask ourselves when we're debating facts and figures

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Speaker 2: on the war, or even as we move into election

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Speaker 2: territory here in the US. Is this would a government

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Speaker 2: that has done no wrong ban entire news organizations? And

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Speaker 2: if it's such a moral army? And many former IDF

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Speaker 2: soldiers have come forward to groups like breaking the silence

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Speaker 2: about what they witnessed and said otherwise. But if it is,

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Speaker 2: shouldn't we want the light of day shown on the truth?

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Speaker 2: Would a healthy political system target journalist who are merely

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Speaker 2: doing their job where there is no wrongdoing? Wouldn't you

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Speaker 2: want that to come out? And at what point is

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Speaker 2: trust only us not good enough? In science, truth is

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Speaker 2: arrived at through the replication of studies by outside parties

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Speaker 2: because of the danger of bias or fabrication when you

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Speaker 2: just trust the guy who came up with it without questioning.

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Speaker 2: Scientific truths are confirmed through evidence over time by multiple sources.

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Speaker 2: In politics, in government, and in war, and especially in

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Speaker 2: matters of life and death and genocide, the same standards

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Speaker 2: should apply.

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Speaker 3: That is my lengthy monologue. Thank you for listening.

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Speaker 5: Wow, that's super interesting. I didn't know any of that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think freedom of information is so important lest

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Speaker 1: we sound to one side leaning. I've also noticed it

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Speaker 1: here with our current administration in disappointing ways, so never

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Speaker 1: a good thing.

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Speaker 5: I will look into what you said.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, Like every government should be held accountable and

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Speaker 2: should have transparency, and I do think in the United

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Speaker 2: States there's been so much lack of transparency, and I

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Speaker 2: do think I wish that that culture would change, and

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Speaker 2: I wish we would hold our politicians more accountable.

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Speaker 5: Me too, Man, should we talk to Gareth.

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Speaker 2: Let's do it. Welcome Gareth Gore to trust me. Thank

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Speaker 2: you so much for being with us today.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me to start us off.

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Speaker 2: Can you tell us a little bit about your background

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Speaker 2: as a journalist and what led you to this insane story.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, as your listeners will will find out if

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Speaker 4: they read the book. I never came into this project

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Speaker 4: with any intention of writing about Opper's day. I knew

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Speaker 4: very little about Oppers day coming into this. So I'm

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Speaker 4: a financial journalist. I've been a financial journalist for the

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Speaker 4: past twenty years. I've covered all kinds of different stories,

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Speaker 4: usually kind of following the money, you know, all of

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Speaker 4: the world. I think I've reported from about twenty five

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Speaker 4: or more countries from around the world, including Saudi Arabia, Russia, Peru,

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Speaker 4: all over the place. So yes, I mean basically what

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Speaker 4: happened was a bank in Spain collapsed and I was

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Speaker 4: sent to report on what had happened. And at first

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Speaker 4: it seemed like just a typical story of like a

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Speaker 4: managers had taken too many risks and they allowed things

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Speaker 4: to get out of control. But the more I dug

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Speaker 4: into the story, the less sense it made, and I

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Speaker 4: just kind of couldn't let it go and just kept

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Speaker 4: on digging and digging into I found myself in this

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Speaker 4: rabbit hole of Opus Day, And yeah, all that we're

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Speaker 4: going to discuss today, I guess.

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Speaker 2: I got to say my associations with Opus Day before

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Speaker 2: reading your book and kind of learning about what this

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Speaker 2: is about, were just the Da Vinci Code. And I

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Speaker 2: had this like vague idea that it's a conspiracy theory

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Speaker 2: about a shadowy like Mason esque group, and I had

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Speaker 2: no idea that it was one actually real end two

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Speaker 2: actually has legitimate accusations of abuse and is so intertwined

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Speaker 2: with the American government. So can you just like, for

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Speaker 2: anyone who has the same amount of references that I had,

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Speaker 2: can you kind of just describe, like where is this

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Speaker 2: information coming? Like This isn't a conspiracy theory book. This

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Speaker 2: is like very intensive journalism. Where are you getting all

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Speaker 2: the information from?

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Speaker 4: So Opus Days is very real. So Opus Day was

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Speaker 4: founded in nineteen twenty eight by a Spanish priest called

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Speaker 4: Possumaria Eskaliba, who basically told everybody that he'd received this

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Speaker 4: vision from God one day that basically outlined the foundations

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Speaker 4: of a new organization that would allow ordinary Catholics to

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Speaker 4: live out their faith more seriously without the need to

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Speaker 4: become priests or nuns. What he set up was this

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Speaker 4: organization that was supposed to provide kind of spiritual support

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Speaker 4: to ordinary Catholics and basically that would show them how

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Speaker 4: to I guess offer up their everyday lives to God.

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Speaker 4: Like Basically, the message was that by striving for perfection

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Speaker 4: in everything you do, whether that's work or your family

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Speaker 4: life or even just cleaning their house or whatever, it's

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Speaker 4: a way of I guess serving God and kind of

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Speaker 4: offering up your life to God. And you know, I

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Speaker 4: think whether you're religious or not, I think we can

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Speaker 4: all agree that kind of I guess striving to do

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Speaker 4: our best is a great philosophy. Very quickly kind of

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Speaker 4: things started to evolve and deteriorate from there.

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Speaker 1: I guess I was just going to say it sounds

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Speaker 1: like prescription for severe OCD. But also, was he kind

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Speaker 1: of framing himself as a prophet. What was his that

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Speaker 1: he was speaking directly to God? Right? Oh?

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Speaker 4: He was, Yeah, it was kind of The language he

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Speaker 4: used was always rather vague. I think he avoided saying

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Speaker 4: that he'd had direct conversations with God, but he certainly

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Speaker 4: told people that he'd received this vision. I guess, you know,

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Speaker 4: maybe some of us who maybe aren't believers might call

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Speaker 4: it like an epiphany. He was basically on retreat for

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Speaker 4: a few days in October nineteen twenty eight. He was

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Speaker 4: already a priest at this point, and I think I

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Speaker 4: guess he'd been thinking of thinking about his own faith

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Speaker 4: and how to better serve God, and he basically came

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Speaker 4: up with this idea or he received this idea from

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Speaker 4: God at some point.

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Speaker 2: Right, he received it directly from God, even if they

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Speaker 2: weren't like on the phone every night, there was right.

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Speaker 5: As they do.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so kind of paint the picture for us of

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Speaker 2: the origins of how this started to evolve, Because, first

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Speaker 2: of all, the different factions of the Catholic Church super

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Speaker 2: confusing to me. I don't know anything about Catholicism. You

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Speaker 2: have the pope and then you have like, can you

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Speaker 2: explain how where this kind of fits into Catholicism.

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Speaker 4: Well so at this point, I mean, yes, there are

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Speaker 4: kind of various movements within the church, some of which

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Speaker 4: are hundreds and hundreds of years old. But at this

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Speaker 4: stage Escaliba was just kind of a normal diocesan priest.

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Speaker 4: He'd been trained in Tharragoza, and then he moved to Madrid,

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Speaker 4: partly to so that he could study law alongside being priest.

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Speaker 4: The critical thing in terms of why this movement developed

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Speaker 4: in the way it did was the backdrop. So this

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Speaker 4: is Spain in the early nineteen thirties. This is a

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Speaker 4: society which is on the brink of civil wars, deep

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Speaker 4: divisions in society. The workers are rising up kind of

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Speaker 4: demanding rights for themselves. They've overthrown the monarchy, you know,

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Speaker 4: many people are turning the backs on the Church and

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Speaker 4: starting to question and the hold that religion has had

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Speaker 4: over society and over their lives for so long. And

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Speaker 4: Escliva saw this and was horrified. So what had begne

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Speaker 4: a few years earlier. As this philosophy of kind of

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Speaker 4: striving to just basically kind of do better and do

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Speaker 4: your best in life started to become gradually more and

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Speaker 4: more militant and more and more reactionary to what was

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Speaker 4: happening around him. He basically started to pen a series

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Speaker 4: of documents outlining the mission of the movement, and he

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Speaker 4: basically said that he saw his followers as and at

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Speaker 4: the stage he didn't really have any followers, but he

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Speaker 4: was I guess he was.

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Speaker 5: Thinking ahead, make it till you make it.

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Speaker 4: Yes, his followers as part of this guerrilla army that

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Speaker 4: would infiltrate every part of society, from government to the judiciary,

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Speaker 4: to education, the media and there would basically use the

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Speaker 4: positions to gather information on what he called the enemies

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Speaker 4: of Christ, and they would seek to I guess, use

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Speaker 4: or abuse the positions in society to carry out what

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Speaker 4: he called the orders of Christ, which I guess were

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Speaker 4: to come through him or through the organization. So, yes,

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Speaker 4: I guess what had begun is this quite laudable and

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Speaker 4: kind of benign philosophy developed into a very militant and

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Speaker 4: quite political philosophy.

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Speaker 2: I kind of want to hear about the all male residences.

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Speaker 2: Like what the culture actually was and how that developed,

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Speaker 2: because it's very cult like even before it expands to

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Speaker 2: this larger thing.

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Speaker 4: So to begin with, Escreva was adamants that would only

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Speaker 4: be for men. He said, never ever will there be

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Speaker 4: women in this organization. He later changed his mind, I

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Speaker 4: guess when it became more convenient for him to have

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Speaker 4: women in the organization. So initially he was teaching alongside

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Speaker 4: being a priest, and at one stage he set up

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Speaker 4: a university of residence to basically offer extra classes for

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Speaker 4: people who were maybe falling behind in their studies or

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Speaker 4: who wanted to do well. And so he had this

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Speaker 4: captive audience of young men who were coming to get

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Speaker 4: extra lessons in law and architecture. So basically, he says,

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Speaker 4: up this academy, which was at least the public side

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Speaker 4: of it was that it was just offering extra classes

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Speaker 4: in law and architecture, but it had a hidden agenda

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Speaker 4: as well, in that it was seeking to recruit these

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Speaker 4: men into oppers day. So Escribar, the founder, would collect

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Speaker 4: all kinds of information on these men who are coming

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Speaker 4: through the door. He will keep report cards on each one.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we have to pause here to just draw

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Speaker 1: the parallel between scientology. For me, that's what's coming up.

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Speaker 1: This feels like in Los Angeles they say, here's an

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Speaker 1: acting class. You got to come through, and then they

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Speaker 1: collect all your secrets and.

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Speaker 3: They see them too.

399
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Speaker 5: Same Nan two. He was ahead of his time.

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Speaker 4: I was just about to make the same point. I

401
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Speaker 4: mean what I find fascinating from this when I when

402
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:14,159
Speaker 4: I detach myself from just how horrendous this was and

403
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Speaker 4: how he was grooming these people and the impact it

404
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Speaker 4: had on people's lives. When you stand back, there's part

405
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Speaker 4: of me that's almost in awe. I mean, he was

406
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Speaker 4: this is the early nineteen thirties, and from what I understand,

407
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Speaker 4: he was basically doing this on his own. He was

408
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Speaker 4: developing these techniques by himself. He even wrote a document

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Speaker 4: which Opaste has kept secret for over the years, for

410
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Speaker 4: the past almost one hundred years, but which I managed

411
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Speaker 4: to get my hands on. Well, well, yes, and so

412
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Speaker 4: you can read all about it in the book. And

413
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Speaker 4: so so he's getting these kids coming through the door,

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Speaker 4: he's keeping records on them, he's trying new techniques the

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Speaker 4: whole time, and he's finding out what works what doesn't.

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Speaker 4: And I think it's in about nineteen thirty four or

417
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Speaker 4: thirty five. Turn basically instructions for his followers to use

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Speaker 4: to recruit new members. And these instructions are based on

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Speaker 4: what he's learned. So he has a few kind of rules,

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Speaker 4: like basically, never target anyone above the age of twenty

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Speaker 4: five because, according to him, people of the theater twenty five,

422
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Speaker 4: the kind of they ask too many baked.

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Speaker 2: Intuitively, he knew that the forming brain, the frontal has

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Speaker 2: closed for business.

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Speaker 4: He tells people, you know, basically, never targets recruits as

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Speaker 4: a group. You need to pick them off one by

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Speaker 4: one and talk to them individually.

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Speaker 2: You need to say thing Scientology did when I went

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Speaker 2: to the Scientology Center.

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Speaker 3: Okay, go on.

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Speaker 4: He needs to also tell people that seem to be

432
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Speaker 4: close to joining, you need to tell them that they

433
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Speaker 4: need to shut up and don't tell anyone, especially not

434
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Speaker 4: their family, about the fact that they enjoying this organization.

435
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Speaker 4: I mean, as you rightly point out, ninety one hundred

436
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:03,480
Speaker 4: years on, these are techniques that are pretty standard as

437
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:08,200
Speaker 4: for cults these days in terms of identifying victims, kind

438
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Speaker 4: of cutting them off from their environment, whether that be

439
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 4: family or friends or whatever, and then kind of bombarding

440
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Speaker 4: them with this information that they're told, look, don't share

441
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,160
Speaker 4: this with it with anyone else. This is just for you.

442
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,119
Speaker 4: And this became, you know, this was fairly.

443
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:27,640
Speaker 2: Efficient information and rules and a highly controlled schedule. Once

444
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,480
Speaker 2: they were actually in right, that like completely consumed their

445
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 2: time and their lives and their critical thinking skills. I'm

446
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,679
Speaker 2: also curious about the body mortification and the sort of

447
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 2: like physical self punishment that was a part of this.

448
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:45,480
Speaker 4: I mean absolutely the So once these people, once these

449
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:49,040
Speaker 4: men at the stage made the leap Escliva, I would

450
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 4: basically tell them we give them this thing, which he

451
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:57,160
Speaker 4: called the Plan of Life, which was meticulously planned schedule

452
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,720
Speaker 4: for the day and for the week. So basically the

453
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,720
Speaker 4: men were required to do set things at set times

454
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:05,800
Speaker 4: of the day. So each day at six they would

455
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 4: wake up. The first thing they had to do, this

456
00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,160
Speaker 4: thing they called the heroic minute, was that they would

457
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 4: get straight out of bed as soon as the clock

458
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,439
Speaker 4: chime six. They would get out of bed, kiss the

459
00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:18,160
Speaker 4: floor and say SEVM. So basically, I serve you God,

460
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:20,439
Speaker 4: And you know, there were set prayers they had to

461
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 4: say through the day. They were expected to pray the

462
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,200
Speaker 4: Rosary each day. They were expected to pray these special

463
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,920
Speaker 4: Opus Day praise prayers at certain points of the day,

464
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,160
Speaker 4: but I mean as you touched on there. They were

465
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:38,160
Speaker 4: also expected to perform corporal mortification through the day as well.

466
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 4: Now like this is kind of I guess from modern audience,

467
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,920
Speaker 4: corporal mortification seems odd and quite medieval, and I guess

468
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:50,200
Speaker 4: in many ways it is. It's been part of Catholicism

469
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:55,680
Speaker 4: for hundreds of years, but many orders have decided to

470
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:58,359
Speaker 4: drop it because they I guess they've seen the potential

471
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 4: for this being quite damaging, not as physically, but I

472
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:03,560
Speaker 4: guess also mentally as well.

473
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 1: It probably turned people off and they were like, oh,

474
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 1: this is maybe too wild.

475
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,399
Speaker 4: People weren't usually told about this until they decided to

476
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 4: make the leap, so they were once they made the leap,

477
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 4: of course, presented to them, as you know, with this

478
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:21,120
Speaker 4: philosophy of driving for perfection, even though already the founder

479
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 4: had much bigger ideas for what Opus Day was going

480
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 4: to be, and he already had this plan of life

481
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 4: ready to go, but he would only present this to

482
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 4: them once they made the leap. But coming back to

483
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:36,199
Speaker 4: the corporate mortification, so Esclibal was was obsessed with this.

484
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:39,919
Speaker 4: Many people around him were quite worried about him. Actually,

485
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,359
Speaker 4: I think he had yet. He was carrying a lot

486
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 4: of weight on his shoulders. There had been a lot

487
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,400
Speaker 4: of death in his family. His you know, his siblings

488
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 4: had died, his father had become bankrupt, and he was

489
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 4: the oldest son and a lot of weight on his shoulders.

490
00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,160
Speaker 4: He was also quite worried about his own weight. He

491
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 4: he often ate to much and felt guilty about it afterwards.

492
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,360
Speaker 4: And I think this corporal mortification was it was kind

493
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 4: of his escape almost. It made him feel closer to Christ.

494
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 4: And so he would whip himself, not just with a

495
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 4: rope and a whip, but you know, he would attach

496
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:18,399
Speaker 4: razor blades to the ends of the rope just to

497
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 4: make mean that much more. He was trying to inflict

498
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 4: pain on himself, I guess as a punishment or to

499
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 4: remind himself of the suffering of Christ. He would also

500
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 4: wear this barbed wire on his leg a few hours

501
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,120
Speaker 4: a day, and sometimes even around his stomach. He would

502
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 4: deny himself things like water for long periods. I'm sorry,

503
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:37,159
Speaker 4: what are you going to say?

504
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 2: I rewatched the beginning of the Da Vinci Code last night,

505
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 2: and there is a scene where they depict some of

506
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 2: these practices and it's.

507
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 3: Very, very uncomfortable to watch.

508
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 2: And all I could think the whole time was how

509
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 2: prone to infections that must make one. But what they

510
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 2: show in that movie, like he was actually doing these things.

511
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 2: It's not like that part is not necessarily exaggerated. Right, Yes,

512
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 2: a fire on his leg and is whipping himself with

513
00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 2: I think something attachable.

514
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 4: I suspected that Vinci COLDI is probably the film is

515
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 4: exaggerates the practice to a certain extent. But yes, I mean,

516
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,199
Speaker 4: certainly in the case of his free bar, this is

517
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 4: a guy who was you know, his top was off,

518
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 4: he was whipping himself and drawing blood. So what you

519
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 4: say is absolutely right. But what's critical is that, I

520
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:21,919
Speaker 4: think so he was obsessed with this, and you know,

521
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 4: he was a free man. He was if he wanted

522
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 4: to do that, then fine, I'm not sure what it

523
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,880
Speaker 4: tells us about his mental health, but you know whatever, Sure, yeah,

524
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 4: he basically enforced this among his followers as well. So

525
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 4: in addition to them having you know, their day almost

526
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 4: planned by the minute, they were also expected to follow

527
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 4: in the same form of self punishment that he was doing.

528
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 4: And so not only was every minute of the day

529
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 4: taking up with these you know, various obligations, but they

530
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 4: were I guess in this mentality of I need to

531
00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 4: punish myself like I'm sinful, I'm I'm not worthy in

532
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 4: some ways. So so I honestly believe in certainly from

533
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 4: speaking to former members, you know, can really have quite

534
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 4: a powerful impact on your self worth and just your

535
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,440
Speaker 4: mental health in general. And so I think that was critical,

536
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 4: I guess, to subduing these people and to I guess,

537
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 4: suppressing the individuality.

538
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 2: And listen, I'm not wanting to judge anybody's religious practice,

539
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 2: but I have to imagine that being in physical discomfort

540
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 2: or pain at all times or multiple times of the

541
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 2: day to punish yourself has to wear on your psyche

542
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,120
Speaker 2: and your again, your critical thinking skills, you know, being

543
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 2: compelled to do this because your leader told you to,

544
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 2: versus it being something you want to do. And again,

545
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 2: that's a whole nother conversation. Seems like just ripe for

546
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 2: you know, getting control.

547
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 5: Over those people.

548
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 2: Okay, so from the beginning, this guy, and by the way,

549
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 2: I've kind of like what you said earlier. I think

550
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 2: what he created was some very horrible stuff, but impressive

551
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 2: how motivated he was to get followers and how much

552
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 2: it actually did grow over time and expanded to numerous countries.

553
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 2: Because in the beginning you kind of go through the

554
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 2: history and your book and then there's like stops and starts,

555
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 2: and people aren't taking them seriously, and then you know,

556
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 2: people are against the group, but they just like somehow persevere.

557
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 2: So what is a numerary and what is a supernumerary?

558
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 4: So initially it was just numery men, and then they

559
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 4: opened it up to numery women. So the numeriies, I

560
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 4: guess the kind of elite corps I like to kind

561
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 4: of call them of Opus Day. These are the people

562
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 4: that have dedicated their lives to Opus Day. So you know,

563
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 4: they kind of make these commitments to remain chaste, to

564
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 4: you know, to to to live lives of poverty. But

565
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 4: also critically, they almost kind of take a pledge of

566
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 4: allegiance to the movement, and so you know they're basically

567
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 4: offering up everything they do to OPA's Day. So these

568
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 4: are the people. They live in gender segregated communities, so

569
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 4: and they're not allowed to mix between themselves at all.

570
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 4: So even today, you know, the big Opper's Day headquarters

571
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 4: for the United States in New York, this kind of

572
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 4: seventeen story building in Manhattan. There's one entrance for the

573
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 4: men and another entrance for the women. And you know

574
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,200
Speaker 4: when I visited, I went to the wrong door. I

575
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,120
Speaker 4: went to the women's door and had this kind of

576
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 4: this woman look at me through a hatch and say,

577
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 4: it's not here. You need to go around the corner.

578
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 5: Wow.

579
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 4: Son, Yes, even today it's that way. But in the

580
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 4: nineteen forties, Escaliba basically opened up the organization to a

581
00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 4: much wider membership. So he invented this new class of

582
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 4: membership called the Supernumeries. So these were people who were

583
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 4: who were going to be members of Opper's Day and

584
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 4: who would follow as much as they could the plan

585
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 4: of life, so the prayers, the mortification, but who would

586
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 4: be allowed to marry and to have kids, and who

587
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 4: would be encouraged to just have normal jobs out in

588
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 4: the world as doctors or teachers or whatever. And these

589
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 4: were the people that Escribart saw as his gorilla army. Now,

590
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 4: the Numeries, this highly controlled group is used in turn

591
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 4: to then control the Supernumeries. So these guys are basically

592
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 4: allocated a certain number of supernumeries each and they have

593
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 4: to meet them once a week or once every fortnight,

594
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 4: and they offer the supernumeriies what's called spiritual direction. So

595
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 4: it's almost like an extension of confession. So the numeries

596
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 4: meet with the supernumeries and they say, you know, what's

597
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 4: going on in your life? Tell me about your job

598
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 4: and your family. What the super nimate don't know. The

599
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 4: supernomberi is believe that all the're getting is like guidance

600
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 4: for how to be better Catholics. But what's actually happening

601
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 4: is that the numeries are gathering information about the supernumeries

602
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 4: and they're then they collect report cards on each and

603
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 4: this information is passed up to the national headquarters. So

604
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 4: you know, there's this huge database basically of information on

605
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 4: all of the members, and this is using this information

606
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 4: the numery members and the directors decide how best I

607
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 4: guess to use or generally kind of push the supernumerary

608
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 4: members to go out and I guess achieve the various

609
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 4: ambitions and desires that OBSTE has for society and for

610
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 4: the local communities as well. So it's like an Army.

611
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 4: You know these are you have the generals who are

612
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 4: in charge of the memories, and then you have these

613
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,239
Speaker 4: kind of I guess these troops who are then in

614
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 4: charge of shepherding around and the normal people on the

615
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 4: Grand supermemoration.

616
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the generals have the troop's darkest, deepest secrets,

617
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:09,959
Speaker 1: which adds a very emotional air.

618
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:14,719
Speaker 4: Well. What differs Opus Day from groups like you know,

619
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 4: scientology or others is that this is an organization that's

620
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 4: being recognized by the Catholic Church and actually there has

621
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 4: been given a special status within the Catholic Church, so

622
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 4: it has this legitimacy. So ordinary Catholics welcome the organization

623
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 4: into their homes because they believe that it's just Catholic Church.

624
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 4: The Poper's signed off on this, then, how could it

625
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 4: possibly be bad? And for me, that kind of makes

626
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 4: this all the more dangerous because they drop their guard.

627
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,320
Speaker 4: They allow their kids to go to opper stay schools,

628
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 4: not knowing that their kids are being groomed and recruited

629
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 4: without their knowledge.

630
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 2: That's the perfect place to segue into how kids are

631
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 2: being groomed and recruited without their knowledge. Tell us about

632
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 2: the secret guidelines aspirants. Let's get into that.

633
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 4: So Opus Day kind of publicly at least says that

634
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:12,520
Speaker 4: no one is allowed to become a member of OPA's

635
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 4: Day until they are eighteen, which is the kind of

636
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 4: you know, the age of consent within the church. But

637
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 4: that's complete fiction. Basically, Opus Day go targets grooms kids

638
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 4: you know as young as like eleven, twelve, thirteen, and

639
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 4: it invites them to well, first of all, it operates schools,

640
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 4: but outside of the school, it invites kids to like

641
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 4: youth programs and initiatives like camping weekends and you know,

642
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 4: film nights, homework clubs, which are run generally by numery

643
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 4: members who are collecting information on the kids as well.

644
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 4: I mean, this is not we're not talking about ancient

645
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 4: We're talking just then about the nineteen thirties. Two years

646
00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 4: ago in Australia, a story can at about a group

647
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 4: of kids who went to an Upenstay school who were

648
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 4: invited to a homework club and one of the kids

649
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,400
Speaker 4: fans a set of notes with all of the kids

650
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 4: shotted down and alongside each name was the memories had

651
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:20,919
Speaker 4: noted down the weaknesses of each child and also what

652
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 4: strengths each kid might offer if they were to join

653
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 4: up a state. This is like in the twenty twenties, Wow,

654
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 4: a developed country.

655
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, crazy, And I'll ask him about that in one second.

656
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 2: But just to contextualize it, like they're aiming the aim

657
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 2: of the organization is to have people in very powerful

658
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 2: and influential positions in society, right, so they can actually

659
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 2: create a world that looks like what they kind of

660
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 2: wanted to look like, or what the I guess whoever

661
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 2: is the leader at that time wants it to look like.

662
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 2: So is it essentially like a pipeline to identify like

663
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,839
Speaker 2: who should go into government or who should go into

664
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 2: societal positions?

665
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 3: Like what's the goal?

666
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 4: So I think there are two things going on opus day,

667
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 4: as you rightly point out right from the beginning, Because

668
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,840
Speaker 4: what they want to do is it's a reactionary political movement.

669
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 4: They want to basically stop any kind of progressive development

670
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:24,720
Speaker 4: in society. And so what they do is they recruit

671
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 4: the elite. They're trying to find people who will be

672
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 4: who are or will be members of government or in

673
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:37,439
Speaker 4: the judiciary or journalists or whatever. So it's looking, yes,

674
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 4: to recruit today's elite and tomorrow's elite, which is why

675
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 4: they go after kids and university students, because they're trying

676
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 4: to get the cream of the crop and you know,

677
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 4: the people who will go on to be tomorrow's elite,

678
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 4: so that they are recruiting the elite. But what they

679
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 4: also need, I mean, coming back to what we were

680
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 4: just saying about the numeries and the function of the

681
00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:01,839
Speaker 4: numeeries within the system controlling the supernumeries, manipulating them, they

682
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 4: also need another kind of They need a constant stream

683
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 4: of numeriies so that they can control the zupernumery. So

684
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 4: I think many many times when people are being groomed

685
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 4: at school when they're still teenagers, it's with a view

686
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 4: to pushing them into becoming numery members of Op's day.

687
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 4: Because of course if you're a kid, you're moreppliable and

688
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 4: you're may be more open to dedicating your life to

689
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 4: this movement. You don't know what's going on, I mean,

690
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 4: as we know, I Screba said, don't don't target people

691
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 4: who are too old because they're going to ask too

692
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,399
Speaker 4: many questions. They're going to almost two wise, you need

693
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 4: tea them when they're young. And that's precisely what's going

694
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 4: on here, and this happens, you know, this happens in

695
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,320
Speaker 4: the US as well. I mean, Opper Stay operates various

696
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 4: schools in Washington, Chicago, Boston. In fact, it has a

697
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 4: plan to expand to another twenty US states of the

698
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 4: next few years. Oh my gosh, where it will be

699
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:07,280
Speaker 4: doing precisely this, it will be it will be grooming,

700
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:11,799
Speaker 4: targeting young children who officially won't be allowed to become

701
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 4: members until they're eighteen, but will be basically earmarked for

702
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 4: becoming memories. And yeah, as you mentioned before, there's they're

703
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 4: given this internal kind of tag. They're called aspirants, so

704
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,320
Speaker 4: they're not officially members, but they are aspirant members.

705
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,800
Speaker 2: And there are instances of sexual abuse occurring in various

706
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,240
Speaker 2: programs in different places, right.

707
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, like to be fer to Obbos Day.

708
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:43,479
Speaker 4: You know, sexual abuse has happened all across the Catholic Church,

709
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 4: and in fact happens all across society.

710
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:49,399
Speaker 3: So I don't think it's not unique to Yeah, it.

711
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 4: Isn't unique, and from what I've seen, I mean, it's

712
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 4: it's hard to know for sure, but the problem of

713
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 4: sexual abuse doesn't seem that much greater in Stay. You know,

714
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 4: compared to other parts of the church or even other

715
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 4: parts of society. But what I like, which is which

716
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 4: is still a lot, absolutely, and I don't want to

717
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:15,720
Speaker 4: diminish the suffering of people who in through this. But

718
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 4: but what I think is kind of special about oppos Day.

719
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 4: They're so obsessed with protecting the reputation of the movement

720
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 4: that often these things are covered up and the organization

721
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:34,399
Speaker 4: goes to extreme lengths to distance itself from everything that's

722
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 4: happening in its name around the world. So the numery

723
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 4: members that live around the world that are kind of

724
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 4: going out there recruiting kids and I guess, you know,

725
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 4: seeking to manipulate and control the supernumerary members. They're following

726
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 4: a set guidelines that are sent from Rome, many of

727
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 4: which were either written by the founder himself or by

728
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:57,439
Speaker 4: his successes. So they're following out, you know, these kind

729
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 4: of strict guidelines. What whither they're doing on the ground,

730
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 4: They're very much encouraged to say, we're doing this as individuals,

731
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:09,760
Speaker 4: and any initiatives they operate have nothing legally or officially

732
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 4: to do with up as Day, So it kind of

733
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 4: Opus Day. The organization is able to wash its hands

734
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 4: of any abuse or any criminality or anything that happens,

735
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 4: because it just says, I don't know. All we do

736
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 4: is we just offer spiritual guidance. And I think, you know,

737
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 4: in the book I mentioned this, the sexual abuse of

738
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 4: I think he was an eleven year old boy at

739
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 4: the time by a numery and he reported this to

740
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,879
Speaker 4: up As Day and Elpu's Day should have reported this

741
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 4: to the Vatican according to the church's own rules. But

742
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 4: because the abuse had taken place at this camp that

743
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 4: was run by an arms length company that was not legally,

744
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 4: you know, anything to do with up As Day, but

745
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 4: which in fact was completely run by up As Day,

746
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 4: they just said, oh no, sorry, it's got nothing to

747
00:39:58,640 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 4: do with us. We don't need to report this to

748
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 4: that can because whatever happened happened, you know, at this

749
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 4: thing that was run by this nonprofit.

750
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 2: That and.

751
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 1: Already the critical thinking is so cut off because it's

752
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:15,399
Speaker 1: like it should be reported to the police, but we

753
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 1: and from the religion that I come from as well,

754
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 1: it's like we'll give it to.

755
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 5: The higher ups and they will deal with that.

756
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 2: I think one thing that is important to note sexual

757
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 2: abuse aside, because you know, we've heard the story before

758
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 2: protecting the reputation of the church over the children. Is

759
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:43,360
Speaker 2: the hospitality courses which I've been putting in quotation marks.

760
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:45,799
Speaker 2: Can you tell us who Catherine? I'm going to say

761
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 2: her name wrong?

762
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 3: Tsier was.

763
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 4: My French is equally bad, so I'm not even sure

764
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 4: I know how to pronounce. And I actually when I

765
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,399
Speaker 4: read the audiobook, I had some approaching me on how

766
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:06,800
Speaker 4: to say. So. In the nineteen forties, Escalibar he basically

767
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 4: hit on what was an amazing kind of business model

768
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 4: for OPS Day. So he set up all of these

769
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 4: student residences all over the country, which yes, were just

770
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 4: normal student residences, but which also doubled up as recruitment centers.

771
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 4: So it was a way of getting men and women

772
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 4: under one roof. So obviously gender segregated men in one

773
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,440
Speaker 4: place women and a place where they could be monitored

774
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 4: and they could report cards could be filled out from them,

775
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 4: and they could very efficiently recruit. But the residencies needed staff.

776
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:42,760
Speaker 4: They needed cooks and cleaners, and Elpus Day was spending

777
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 4: large amounts of money on hiring women largely to cook

778
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 4: and clean and basically serve meals. The students that were

779
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 4: living there, who were paying the kind of bed and board.

780
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 4: But then Escalibar hits on this idea of Okay, until now,

781
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 4: we've been recruiting the elites, and tomorrow or as elite,

782
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 4: what if we created this new kind of subclass of membership.

783
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 4: Will we recruit the domestic workers and we get them

784
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 4: to join the movement, And just like the numeries who

785
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 4: are expected to give over all of their wages to

786
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 4: uppers Day, what about we get these women to also

787
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 4: give the wages to us as well. So effectively, what

788
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 4: he created was this pool of free labor. So opu

789
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 4: Ste was paying these women. But because they were now

790
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 4: these what they called numery servants, they later changed to

791
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 4: them because I guess the pr and that name wasn't

792
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 4: so great, they changed the name to numerary assistance. They

793
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 4: were receiving their pay from Opus Day and then they

794
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 4: were giving it straight back. So Opusta had all of

795
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 4: these women who are basically providing you know, free domestic service, cooking,

796
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:54,919
Speaker 4: cleaning for the organization. Screwball was so pleased for him

797
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 4: with himself, after having you know, thought this up, he said,

798
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 4: and I paraphrased, basically, he said, this is the greatest gift.

799
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 4: God has given us this, you know, free supply of labor.

800
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,720
Speaker 4: And it's important to understand that it was confined to women.

801
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 4: You know, even back in the nineteen forties, there were

802
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 4: still there were men who were doing domestic service. You

803
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 4: had you know, butlers and gardeners and drivers and stuff.

804
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:24,480
Speaker 4: But for some reason, Escreba chells that he wouldn't recruit

805
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 4: men for this subclass. It would only be women. I

806
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:28,719
Speaker 4: don't know whether that was because he thought they were

807
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:32,839
Speaker 4: more pliable or whatever. And this goes on today. Like

808
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:36,760
Speaker 4: so there Opus Stay is recruiting elite members of society,

809
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 4: but at the same time it's targeting underprivileged girls from

810
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 4: usually in poor countries and selling them this idea that

811
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:53,720
Speaker 4: they can serve God by becoming domestic servants for Opus

812
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 4: Stay inside OLPA Stay centers and so all around the

813
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 4: world there are these hospitality schools that are set up

814
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 4: were Opus Day goes out to local communities and says, hey, yeah,

815
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,399
Speaker 4: you know, your prospects here are not great. Why don't

816
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 4: you come to the city with us and come and

817
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 4: join this school. We'll teach you how to cook, and

818
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 4: we'll teach you how to work in the hospitality industry.

819
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 4: You'll get all of these qualifications and then you can

820
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 4: go on and get a great job in the city

821
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 4: in the hospitality sector. Once the girls are taken away

822
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 4: from their families and living at the school, many of them,

823
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 4: you know, they're still teenagers at this stage that are

824
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 4: then targeted, groomed into joining the movement and becoming these

825
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:41,439
Speaker 4: numerary assistants. I've met many of these women, and yeah,

826
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:44,879
Speaker 4: the tales they tell are absolutely horrendous. You know, they're

827
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 4: told God has chosen you for this calling. If you

828
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 4: turn your back on God and you choose not to

829
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,840
Speaker 4: do this, then you will go to hell. Your entire

830
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:56,799
Speaker 4: family will go to hell. You know that the manipulation

831
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 4: of these young girls who are taken out of their environments,

832
00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 4: you know where they can go back and get supports,

833
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 4: they're just inside these schools, is absolutely horrendous.

834
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:12,760
Speaker 2: And Catherine Tissier was recruited at fourteen, pressured into doing

835
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 2: religious activities that were not advertised in the beginning, completely controlled,

836
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:21,359
Speaker 2: basically isolated from her parents, and then they put her

837
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 2: on a bunch of like a cocktail of drugs and

838
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 2: she was like deathly skinny, and finally when she saw

839
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,799
Speaker 2: her parents, they were like, what's happening? And so it

840
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 2: begs the question, how many other girls and women has

841
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 2: this happened to and how has there not been widespread

842
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 2: accountability for this, I mean has there So, just to

843
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 2: pick up on.

844
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 4: The on the use of prescription drugs, the ranks of

845
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 4: OPUS day, the numery ranks of OPUS day, and the

846
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:52,879
Speaker 4: numerary assistant ranks of Elpus Day are absolutely riddled with

847
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:58,359
Speaker 4: mental illness, and OPUS Day often sends people who are

848
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 4: showing signs of mental illnes us to an open stay

849
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 4: doctor who prescribes them with a cocktail of of medication

850
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 4: two certainly from the women and the men. Actually, because

851
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 4: this happens to Maile memories too, that it isn't part

852
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 4: of a program that's designed to help them get better.

853
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 4: It's usually just a way of covering up the symptoms

854
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 4: so that they continue, they can continue recruiting and carrying

855
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 4: out their roles for the organization. So to come back

856
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 4: to your point there, I mean, people are starting to

857
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,479
Speaker 4: wake up to what's happening. So, just a few days

858
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 4: ago ago, federal prosecutors in Argentina actually filed formal accusations

859
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,879
Speaker 4: against Dopper's Day, and in particular for four open stay

860
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 4: priests who would run the organization in Argentina for having

861
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:54,400
Speaker 4: trafficked teenage girls. People standing the alarm on this for years.

862
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 4: I mean, the case in Argentina, I write, you know,

863
00:46:57,280 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 4: although obviously there'll be more recent developments, but I write

864
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:01,960
Speaker 4: about this in my book, and I travel to Argentina

865
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:04,479
Speaker 4: to meet with many of the women. There were forty

866
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 4: two women who who are part of this case. But

867
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:13,879
Speaker 4: this is happening and has happened all over the world.

868
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 4: I know from my research and investigation that Opus Day

869
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 4: was operating similar schools. So it is operating similar schools

870
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 4: in places like Nigeria, the Philippines, Belgium.

871
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 5: It's beyond comprehension.

872
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:31,840
Speaker 4: Absolutely.

873
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:32,320
Speaker 1: Yeah.

874
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,520
Speaker 2: I want to talk about Leonard Leo and the influence

875
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:40,839
Speaker 2: in American politics. Everything that you're describing that is coercive

876
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 2: and abusive seems to come back to this same point

877
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:49,080
Speaker 2: of like, we need more money and we need more

878
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 2: power and influence in society. Tell us who Leonard Leo

879
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 2: is and what the federalist society is.

880
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 4: Okay, So, in order to expand around the world, Opus

881
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,479
Speaker 4: Day over the years needed money and for a large

882
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 4: part of the book is dedicated to the story of

883
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 4: how oppers Day basically hijacked this banking in the nineteen

884
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:13,320
Speaker 4: fifties and Spain and turned it into a cash machine,

885
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:16,799
Speaker 4: which which financed, which directly financed the creation of this

886
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:20,839
Speaker 4: network of hospitality schools around the world and many other

887
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 4: kind of normal schools and student residences to help it recruit.

888
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 4: So it's always courted power, it's always courted money. And

889
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 4: you know, in Washington, d C. It's really plowed huge

890
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:45,320
Speaker 4: amounts of resources into penetrating the DC political and judicial scenes,

891
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 4: you know, and it's been quite successful in doing that.

892
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 4: Former Supreme Court Justice Antoninscleer was a regular at the

893
00:48:53,719 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 4: uppers Day retreats that were held outside of Washington. He

894
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:58,839
Speaker 4: was he was a he was a big fan of

895
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:01,440
Speaker 4: Oppers Day. I don't believe he was a member, but

896
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:05,280
Speaker 4: he was certainly a regular at the retreats and received

897
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 4: a certain amount of spiritual guidance as well from from

898
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 4: Opu's Day. But in more recent years, Opus Day seems

899
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:15,360
Speaker 4: to have really kind of cosied up to a number

900
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:24,400
Speaker 4: of very influential people on the conservative right of the

901
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:28,720
Speaker 4: political spectrum, including mister Lendon Leo, I mean mister lend Leo.

902
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 4: He So, this is a guy who is credited with

903
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 4: having orchestrated a conservative takeover of the Supreme Courts and

904
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:44,720
Speaker 4: is credited with having had possibly the most the biggest

905
00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:48,839
Speaker 4: impact in the overturning of Rovue Wade. So this guy

906
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 4: is was invited onto the board of the Opera's Day

907
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:57,040
Speaker 4: center in central Washington, a place called the Catholic Information Center,

908
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 4: which for many years has very success yessfully recruited congress

909
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:09,919
Speaker 4: men and women senators you know, you know, hotshot lawyers

910
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 4: and lobbyists. And mister mister Leo says that he isn't

911
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:20,160
Speaker 4: a member, and I perfectly believe that, But what opens

912
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 4: Dare has done is certainly kind of entice linared Leo

913
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,839
Speaker 4: into its orbits, and and Leo has in recent years

914
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 4: become a major donor to Open Stay and he's very

915
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:34,840
Speaker 4: supportive of many Open Day initiatives, including the one I

916
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 4: mentioned mentioned earlier, of you know, this plan to basically

917
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 4: expand the Open Stay school network to another twenty states.

918
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:45,600
Speaker 1: I bet he is, because my mind goes to, well,

919
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:48,680
Speaker 1: they now have all of his secrets. He's probably confessed

920
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 1: things to him and then I think retreats and I'm wondering, like,

921
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 1: is this a place where some of these women are

922
00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 1: taking care of these men in ways that can be

923
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 1: used in blackmail?

924
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:03,359
Speaker 5: I mean, it goes so deep.

925
00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 1: There's so many rabbit holes that I know we don't

926
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 1: have answers to.

927
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 4: But I think that's pure speculation.

928
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 5: I have like I'm making this up in my head.

929
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:15,880
Speaker 4: And I think even within the kind of and so

930
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 4: Leo isn't a member of OPPERS Day, but even for

931
00:51:20,160 --> 00:51:22,520
Speaker 4: members of even for the supernumerary members of UPS Day

932
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 4: that are spilling out the heart to the numery that's

933
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:29,239
Speaker 4: been assigned to them for the spiritual guidance, I think

934
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 4: they're unaware that that information is being collected on them.

935
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 4: So I don't think it's a kind of blackmail thing.

936
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 4: I think what it is the reason for collecting the information,

937
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 4: I think is more so that the higher ups can

938
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:47,279
Speaker 4: work out how best to basically push the open Staate

939
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 4: networks in Washington or wherever it might be in the

940
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 4: right direction, so that maybe these two guys we could

941
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:55,080
Speaker 4: encourage them to meet because they might be able to

942
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 4: help us with this initiative or whatever. So it's more

943
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 4: of a gentle kind of pushing people together rather than saying, hey,

944
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 4: we've got this information on you, you better do what

945
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:08,279
Speaker 4: we say. I don't believe there are any orders coming

946
00:52:08,280 --> 00:52:12,440
Speaker 4: from the top, but what the Stay higher ups are

947
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:16,360
Speaker 4: trying to do is engineer the people within the orbit,

948
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:22,160
Speaker 4: but basically advance various causes. Leo, I'm absolutely certain, is

949
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 4: acting off his own own initiative. But I think his

950
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 4: proximity in this over Stay world, you know, I wouldn't

951
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:33,200
Speaker 4: be surprised if he was being constantly kind of bed

952
00:52:33,440 --> 00:52:36,200
Speaker 4: you know, he's reassured that what you're doing is right,

953
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 4: and yeah, you know this is great in the service

954
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 4: of the church. It's kind of that kind of subtle

955
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:45,280
Speaker 4: kind of nudge. And I think that that is going on.

956
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:48,720
Speaker 2: And Leonard Leo is I would say he's a manipulator,

957
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:51,319
Speaker 2: maybe more than a manipulated. I mean, maybe both things

958
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:54,840
Speaker 2: are happening at once. But there's so many articles about

959
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:58,359
Speaker 2: him recently, and you can speak to this more from

960
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 2: the Financial Times just a month Agooh it said he's

961
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:04,280
Speaker 2: making a billion dollar push to quote crush liberal dominance

962
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 2: across corporate America in the country's news and entertainment sectors.

963
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 3: His quote says, we need.

964
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 2: To crush liberal dominance where it's most insidious, so we'll

965
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:13,800
Speaker 2: direct resources to build talent and capital formation pipelines in

966
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:16,200
Speaker 2: the areas of news and entertainment where left wing extremism

967
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:20,799
Speaker 2: is most evident. He is making people pay price for

968
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:25,120
Speaker 2: putting extreme left wing ideology ahead of consumers. He's basically

969
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:29,320
Speaker 2: been advocating for the overturn over vweight right, like this

970
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 2: kind of anti LGBTQ marriage law, like basically like ultra

971
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 2: conservative values. He is responsible for a significant amount of money,

972
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:44,160
Speaker 2: highly significant amount of money going toward funding campaigns for

973
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 2: conservative justices and lawmakers who are in a position to

974
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:51,879
Speaker 2: like promote these sort of hyper Christian values in the world.

975
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 3: Is that accurate? Did I say that correctly?

976
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:58,359
Speaker 4: Yeah? So, basically a few years ago he a very

977
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:02,200
Speaker 4: large donor to at Eralist Society where he was working.

978
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:05,799
Speaker 4: Lee seems to have convinced this guy, a guy called

979
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:08,720
Speaker 4: Barry said, I think is how you pronounce it, Barry Side,

980
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:11,799
Speaker 4: who was a billionaire. He convinced this guy to leave

981
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 4: his money to Leo and his network of kind of foundations,

982
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 4: and so you know, overnight, Leonard Leelle suddenly had this

983
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 4: one point six billion dollar war chest too at his disposal.

984
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:32,840
Speaker 4: And yes, he's talked in recent weeks and months about

985
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:35,120
Speaker 4: how he plans to use that, and I think his

986
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 4: exact words were, he wants to crush liberal dominance. Now, look,

987
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:42,760
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm not saying that this is a plan

988
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:46,279
Speaker 4: orchestrated by opper Stay or that up Stay is telling

989
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:49,440
Speaker 4: him what to do, not in anyway, but there are

990
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 4: certain parallels to what he's trying to do convined to

991
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:57,399
Speaker 4: what Escaliba was trying to do, or what or how

992
00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:01,640
Speaker 4: Escaliba envisioned Opus day. So remember what we're saying at

993
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:03,399
Speaker 4: the beginning of the of the of the show that

994
00:55:04,239 --> 00:55:09,800
Speaker 4: Escobar wanted his followers to infiltrate every element of society,

995
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 4: including media, education, judiciary. And that's precisely what lenardly I

996
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:18,440
Speaker 4: was trying to do with his new Tenneo network and

997
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 4: with this money. It's he's it's a reengineering of society

998
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:28,640
Speaker 4: with people and ideas that you know are basically kind

999
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:31,400
Speaker 4: of fueled by his kind of this reactionary agenda of

1000
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:35,560
Speaker 4: crushing progressivism and liberalism. And you know, it's it's about

1001
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 4: turning the clock back. Certainly in the last five I

1002
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 4: think it's five Supreme Court's appointees. He's had a hand

1003
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:47,920
Speaker 4: in their appointment, but I think not more perhaps more

1004
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:50,759
Speaker 4: critically given you know, in the weeks ahead, is is

1005
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:55,399
Speaker 4: leonardly Our's links also to Project twenty twenty five, which

1006
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:59,360
Speaker 4: which is similar to his whole TENEO networking that it's

1007
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:02,200
Speaker 4: a re engineering of I guess in the case of

1008
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:05,360
Speaker 4: Project twenty twenty five, of federal government in order to

1009
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 4: kind of push across liberal dominance and to you know,

1010
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 4: basically it's a reactionary agenda. Interestingly, as well, another opens

1011
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:16,320
Speaker 4: Dale link here Kevin Roberts, who's the president of the

1012
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 4: Heritage Foundation and the person who has basically cooked up

1013
00:56:21,360 --> 00:56:24,319
Speaker 4: this whole plan, the Project twenty twenty five. He's a

1014
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:27,799
Speaker 4: regular attendee at the Opps Day Center in Washington as well.

1015
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:32,759
Speaker 4: He gets his from the Olper's Day priests there. You know.

1016
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:36,280
Speaker 4: I mean, people might say this is like a conspiracy theory,

1017
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:40,040
Speaker 4: but there are all of these kind of parallels and

1018
00:56:40,640 --> 00:56:43,759
Speaker 4: it's just very interesting that Opus Day it seems to

1019
00:56:43,840 --> 00:56:51,400
Speaker 4: have very much, very successfully infiltrated this kind of radical

1020
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:56,719
Speaker 4: conservative circles within Washington, across politics, across the lobbying industry,

1021
00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:03,560
Speaker 4: think tanks across the judiciary, and I think it's not

1022
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:09,759
Speaker 4: an exaggeration to say that Olpius Day's philosophy is now

1023
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:13,400
Speaker 4: kind of a dominant one among certainly among the Catholic

1024
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:16,800
Speaker 4: members of that kind of radical conservative elite.

1025
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 2: And so it's possible that there's just this meeting of

1026
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 2: the mud, like shared ideology coming together because they want

1027
00:57:23,920 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 2: the same things versus like a cabal of right wing people.

1028
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:30,920
Speaker 2: But the connections are there, the overlap and the people

1029
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 2: are there, and ultimately, like the retrograde, anachronistic societal goals

1030
00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 2: are there and are being enacted right now before our

1031
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 2: very eyes, with a very large amount of money and power.

1032
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:42,840
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1033
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:44,080
Speaker 1: Right, And people are going to have to read the

1034
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:46,439
Speaker 1: book because it's great and there's a lot about dark

1035
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 1: money in it that is very interesting that Gareth probably

1036
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:52,600
Speaker 1: can't really get into. But yeah, there's a lot there.

1037
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:55,040
Speaker 1: Like I said, for me, it opens a lot of

1038
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:57,560
Speaker 1: rabbit holes. I could really go into this for a

1039
00:57:57,640 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 1: very long time.

1040
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 4: That's a great plot. You sell a book better better

1041
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 4: than I do, thank you very much.

1042
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:07,520
Speaker 2: Where does everything stand with Opus stay now? Do you

1043
00:58:07,560 --> 00:58:09,200
Speaker 2: think reform is possible?

1044
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 3: Where are we at Okay.

1045
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:15,920
Speaker 4: OPA Stay is at a critical juncture. It's facing the

1046
00:58:15,960 --> 00:58:20,400
Speaker 4: biggest crisis possibly to it to its existence ever well

1047
00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:22,800
Speaker 4: certainly well it's only been around for almost one hundred

1048
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 4: years in its one hundred year history, so the pulp

1049
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:31,720
Speaker 4: is acutely aware of the abuses and manipulation that have

1050
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 4: been taking place within Opa Stay, that have been taking

1051
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 4: place in the name of the church. Let's not let's

1052
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:43,960
Speaker 4: not forget, and he is currently making some very delicate steps.

1053
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:47,960
Speaker 4: He knows how powerful op Stay is within the church.

1054
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:54,400
Speaker 4: So I believe the Pope is trying to to address

1055
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 4: the abuses and trying to reign in the organization, but

1056
00:58:57,240 --> 00:58:59,920
Speaker 4: he's doing it in a very delicate way. I understand

1057
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:01,920
Speaker 4: were likely to see some kind of big announcement in

1058
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:03,320
Speaker 4: the next few weeks, So I'm not sure what that

1059
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:06,920
Speaker 4: might be. Whether he's going to intervene in the organization

1060
00:59:07,040 --> 00:59:09,560
Speaker 4: like he did with the Legionaries of Christ a few

1061
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:13,439
Speaker 4: years ago, or whether you know, I don't know, maybe

1062
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 4: he'll change the internal rules of Oste. I don't know,

1063
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 4: but but I think something is coming. But also like

1064
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 4: it's coming back to whether Opus Day can reform. I

1065
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:31,400
Speaker 4: think Opus Day has been given numerous chances to address

1066
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:34,200
Speaker 4: the abuses and manipulation that are at the heart of

1067
00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:37,360
Speaker 4: the organization, and time and time again, it's leadership has

1068
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 4: proven unwilling and unable to push through any any meaningful reforms.

1069
00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 4: And I think there's a very good reason for that,

1070
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:48,680
Speaker 4: and that's because, and this goes back to the founding

1071
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:54,400
Speaker 4: of Opus Day, Escalibar told his followers that he'd received

1072
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 4: this vision directly from God, and he wrote this vision

1073
00:59:57,360 --> 01:00:00,760
Speaker 4: down in like in kind of intricate detail. So there

1074
01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:04,600
Speaker 4: are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pages detailing how

1075
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:07,640
Speaker 4: Open Stay should operate and how the system of abuse

1076
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:11,760
Speaker 4: and manipulation should be carried out. And so but today's leadership,

1077
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:15,600
Speaker 4: to challenge anything about that system is to challenge the

1078
01:00:15,720 --> 01:00:20,480
Speaker 4: vision which supposedly came. To challenge anything about Opus Day

1079
01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:23,200
Speaker 4: is to challenge the word of God. And so they've

1080
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:26,919
Speaker 4: got themselves into this bind. So this is now this

1081
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:29,800
Speaker 4: vision that they've sold to the membership has been great

1082
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 4: in terms of enticing new members in and convincing ordinary

1083
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:36,480
Speaker 4: Catholics to become members of OPS Day. But what it's

1084
01:00:36,560 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 4: also done is restrict its room for maneuver. It now

1085
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:45,720
Speaker 4: can't address these clear examples of abuse, because to do

1086
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:52,760
Speaker 4: so is to question the fundamental foundation of the organization.

1087
01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:55,560
Speaker 2: What I can liken it too is Mormonism because I

1088
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 2: grew up leaving Joseph Smith, found the church and spoke

1089
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:00,680
Speaker 2: directly to God. God a visions same kind of thing.

1090
01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:03,840
Speaker 2: But then subsequent profits would be like, oh, actually God

1091
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:06,480
Speaker 2: changed is mine? Like, are there leaders who claim to

1092
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:09,840
Speaker 2: also be you know, in some form of communication with Gon?

1093
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:11,560
Speaker 4: No, No, not at all.

1094
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:15,800
Speaker 5: And I'm Mary cute, I too the problem.

1095
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 4: I think so far so he's had. We're now onto

1096
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:25,120
Speaker 4: Eskalba's third successor, and each successor is kind of elected

1097
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:28,360
Speaker 4: on the promise to continue things as they are and

1098
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:34,640
Speaker 4: to continue the great work of God. I mean, maybe

1099
01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:36,720
Speaker 4: one day they will come a day. I mean I think,

1100
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:39,400
Speaker 4: I don't think. I think things will happen before then.

1101
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:42,880
Speaker 4: I think, you know, things are coming out that can't

1102
01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:46,840
Speaker 4: be brushed under the carpet. Yeah, I think there's going

1103
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:50,160
Speaker 4: to be some kind of reckoning coming for OPUS Day.

1104
01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:53,360
Speaker 4: But let's assume that these things haven't come out and

1105
01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:55,919
Speaker 4: or that nothing is done. Maybe one day there could

1106
01:01:55,920 --> 01:01:59,400
Speaker 4: be a reforming leader of OP Day. But it's kind

1107
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:02,440
Speaker 4: of difficult because they've created such a cult of personality

1108
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:03,240
Speaker 4: around the founder.

1109
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:05,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, even if there was.

1110
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:08,000
Speaker 4: A desire to address some of these problems, it's almost

1111
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 4: ingrained into every member. Just yeah, I mean maybe, I'm

1112
01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 4: sure you guys have an interesting perspective on this as well.

1113
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:18,000
Speaker 4: You know, the worship of the leader, and you know

1114
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 4: we not being able to question anything. I mean, that's

1115
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:23,800
Speaker 4: something that's common to so many cults, right, I mean,

1116
01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:27,720
Speaker 4: I guess that's an essential characteristic of a cult. Almost.

1117
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:28,360
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1118
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:32,520
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I will be very curious to see what transpires

1119
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:35,120
Speaker 2: in the next few years and where and when there

1120
01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:39,240
Speaker 2: will be accountability if any I hope Leonard Leo decides

1121
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:41,840
Speaker 2: to retire onto an island somewhere and stop intervening in

1122
01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:44,960
Speaker 2: American politics. Can you remind us the name of your

1123
01:02:44,960 --> 01:02:46,640
Speaker 2: book and where people can find it.

1124
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:50,720
Speaker 4: The name of my book is simply Opus, and you

1125
01:02:50,720 --> 01:02:54,880
Speaker 4: can find it in all good bookstores online and also

1126
01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:58,720
Speaker 4: in your local library. I guess I've reluctantly been dragged

1127
01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:01,000
Speaker 4: back onto Twitter to or so, I guess it's not

1128
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 4: cool to promote the book and to get interact with

1129
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:08,040
Speaker 4: people out there. So I'm at Gareth Underscore goal. So

1130
01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:10,480
Speaker 4: it's g A r e t h underscore g O

1131
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:11,800
Speaker 4: r E perfect.

1132
01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:14,480
Speaker 3: Thank you, thanks so much for joining us. I wish

1133
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:15,840
Speaker 3: we could talk for three more hours.

1134
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:16,120
Speaker 4: I know.

1135
01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:20,720
Speaker 1: Thank you, Okay, thank you for having me.

1136
01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:23,840
Speaker 5: Wow, that was a great interview. Thank you, Gareth.

1137
01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:25,120
Speaker 3: Thank you Gareth.

1138
01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:29,200
Speaker 1: So I have a takeaway from this that I want

1139
01:03:29,240 --> 01:03:31,320
Speaker 1: to get your thoughts on, Lola. I mean, I have

1140
01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:33,240
Speaker 1: a million takeaways. Like we said, we could talk to

1141
01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:36,960
Speaker 1: him for days. But one of the real big red

1142
01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:39,320
Speaker 1: flags and the story for me was how it all

1143
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:44,520
Speaker 1: began and this self sacrifice way of thinking and living

1144
01:03:44,920 --> 01:03:48,280
Speaker 1: that I think just lends itself so easily to abuse.

1145
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:50,800
Speaker 1: And in the two by two culture which I grew

1146
01:03:50,880 --> 01:03:53,520
Speaker 1: up in, it's called dying to self and that was

1147
01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:56,160
Speaker 1: something we were supposed to do every single day, and

1148
01:03:56,280 --> 01:04:01,520
Speaker 1: it really shuts down a huge part of your mind, body, soul,

1149
01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:05,600
Speaker 1: everything because you learn to not trust your instincts, to

1150
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 1: not want what you want, to tell yourself no, and

1151
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:14,080
Speaker 1: it's all kind of shrouded in this umbrella of and

1152
01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:15,360
Speaker 1: that's what God wants.

1153
01:04:16,080 --> 01:04:17,880
Speaker 3: Wait, so what was what did that look like in

1154
01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:18,560
Speaker 3: your religion?

1155
01:04:19,200 --> 01:04:21,280
Speaker 1: Well, in my religion, it looked like you didn't wear

1156
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:24,000
Speaker 1: what you wanted to wear. You couldn't wear makeup, no jewelry,

1157
01:04:24,160 --> 01:04:28,760
Speaker 1: you couldn't watch movies or television denying. Yeah, don't follow

1158
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:32,920
Speaker 1: your dreams, like be something small and humble and modest,

1159
01:04:33,040 --> 01:04:35,040
Speaker 1: and it does stand out.

1160
01:04:35,480 --> 01:04:36,840
Speaker 5: Die to yourself every.

1161
01:04:36,720 --> 01:04:38,400
Speaker 3: Day, right right, right?

1162
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:41,880
Speaker 5: And some people find that harder than others. I was

1163
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:45,720
Speaker 5: not able to die to myself at all ever. I

1164
01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:47,600
Speaker 5: just felt guilty that I couldn't. But I would.

1165
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:50,120
Speaker 1: You have my friends meet me at school with normal

1166
01:04:50,120 --> 01:04:52,760
Speaker 1: clothes and makeup, and I'd watch movies when I spent

1167
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:54,720
Speaker 1: the night at their house. But whereas other people were

1168
01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:57,800
Speaker 1: actually following the rules, right.

1169
01:04:57,640 --> 01:04:59,720
Speaker 5: It's a little bit harder for them to find their bearings.

1170
01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:02,880
Speaker 2: Some shit, right well, I mean there's a reason that

1171
01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:06,160
Speaker 2: colts have a dress code so much of the time, right,

1172
01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:09,760
Speaker 2: Like the way when you're allowed to express yourself as

1173
01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:12,439
Speaker 2: an individual and do things that you just think are fun,

1174
01:05:12,560 --> 01:05:15,680
Speaker 2: are that make you feel good? Having an individual self

1175
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:17,800
Speaker 2: makes you less controllable for the group.

1176
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:19,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't know.

1177
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:22,080
Speaker 1: There's something about that self sacrifice that you see a

1178
01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:24,960
Speaker 1: lot too. And like Kundalini yoga or like dying to

1179
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:27,720
Speaker 1: your ego, that just puts a dagger in your identity

1180
01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:31,480
Speaker 1: and you feel so guilty for wanting to be free

1181
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:34,320
Speaker 1: of whatever thought system you're under, because it just feels

1182
01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:38,640
Speaker 1: like self will I'm not I'm being selfish. It's just

1183
01:05:38,760 --> 01:05:42,160
Speaker 1: it's a really hard blow to overcome, so right, you know.

1184
01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:46,000
Speaker 2: I wonder, I'm so curious about the emotion of guilt

1185
01:05:46,040 --> 01:05:49,880
Speaker 2: because obviously, like basically every cult has their members feeling

1186
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:51,920
Speaker 2: guilty all the time, like they're not doing enough or

1187
01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:56,280
Speaker 2: not good enough, or not achieving some impossible, unachievable standard.

1188
01:05:57,000 --> 01:05:59,280
Speaker 2: And I wonder, like, you know, we talk about how

1189
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:03,920
Speaker 2: anxiety hijacks our bodies and like traa like if we're

1190
01:06:03,920 --> 01:06:06,680
Speaker 2: triggered into a past trauma we have PTSD, like that

1191
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:07,680
Speaker 2: hijacks our bodies.

1192
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:09,560
Speaker 3: I'd be very curious to.

1193
01:06:09,200 --> 01:06:12,040
Speaker 2: Know more about, like what guilt does to our bodies

1194
01:06:12,160 --> 01:06:15,959
Speaker 2: and how that impacts our critical thinking because anything that

1195
01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:19,720
Speaker 2: you know activates you and makes you disregulated is gonna

1196
01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:22,840
Speaker 2: mess with your ability to think clearly right, So surely

1197
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:24,880
Speaker 2: guilt would fall under that as well. I mean, I

1198
01:06:24,920 --> 01:06:26,440
Speaker 2: haven't thought of that about that before, but.

1199
01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:30,240
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it totally shuts down the prefrontal lobes it's

1200
01:06:30,320 --> 01:06:37,400
Speaker 1: like it's like the opposite of taking mushrooms. But yeah,

1201
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:39,440
Speaker 1: I could just when he was speaking about, you know,

1202
01:06:39,480 --> 01:06:42,320
Speaker 1: the women that are doing some of this domestic labor

1203
01:06:42,440 --> 01:06:45,720
Speaker 1: and under so many rules and stuff. If I was

1204
01:06:45,880 --> 01:06:47,760
Speaker 1: one of these women, I'm just gonna focus on the

1205
01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:50,840
Speaker 1: women that are kind of being trafficked, are being domestic

1206
01:06:51,400 --> 01:06:55,840
Speaker 1: I'm gonna just call it exploit friends. Yeah, I could

1207
01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:59,800
Speaker 1: see almost being brainwashed to thinking, well, this is dying

1208
01:06:59,840 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 1: to self, this is serving the Lord, and maybe somebody

1209
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:05,680
Speaker 1: who has my best interest at heart telling me like no,

1210
01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:08,600
Speaker 1: you're being abused would feel like the actual abuse of

1211
01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:14,960
Speaker 1: scary narrative, like that was the going against God, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

1212
01:07:15,040 --> 01:07:17,680
Speaker 2: I mean, and that's the manipulation, that's like, that's how

1213
01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:18,640
Speaker 2: they try it deep.

1214
01:07:18,920 --> 01:07:20,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's so deep.

1215
01:07:20,760 --> 01:07:23,960
Speaker 3: Oh, they're so good. Their cults are so good at

1216
01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:26,360
Speaker 3: doing what they do. Those fuckers.

1217
01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:31,800
Speaker 1: Well, we have lots more to talk to you about,

1218
01:07:31,920 --> 01:07:33,320
Speaker 1: lots more cults coming up.

1219
01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:36,200
Speaker 5: They're never ending. That's uh, I guess one.

1220
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:37,320
Speaker 3: It's true.

1221
01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:41,600
Speaker 5: One thing we got. We hope we see you again

1222
01:07:41,640 --> 01:07:42,840
Speaker 5: here next week.

1223
01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:46,040
Speaker 1: And as always, remember to follow your gut watch.

1224
01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:52,240
Speaker 2: Out for rad Fox and never Ever Trust Me Bye.

1225
01:07:55,120 --> 01:07:57,840
Speaker 2: Trust Me is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and

1226
01:07:57,880 --> 01:07:58,720
Speaker 2: Steve Delemator.

1227
01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:00,840
Speaker 1: The Special Things to Stay para and.

1228
01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:03,120
Speaker 3: Her theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1229
01:08:03,360 --> 01:08:06,200
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1230
01:08:06,400 --> 01:08:09,760
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

1231
01:08:09,840 --> 01:08:11,480
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

1232
01:08:11,640 --> 01:08:15,040
Speaker 3: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1233
01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:18,320
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1234
01:08:18,479 --> 01:08:19,519
Speaker 1: Hits on Twitter.

1235
01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:22,000
Speaker 3: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.