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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in, using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Kate, how are you doing?

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well, Paul. What's going on with you?

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, I'm falling apart, you know, I think

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Speaker 2: I think you remember I had my shoulder replaced a

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Speaker 2: little more than three years ago now, and you know,

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Speaker 2: I was having some pain in my left hip. It's

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Speaker 2: down in the groin area where the joint is, and

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Speaker 2: so I went in and I saw specialists, and sure enough,

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Speaker 2: I've got arthritis and my left hip. In fact, it's

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Speaker 2: it's becoming sort of an impediment for me to do

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Speaker 2: a lot of the activities I like to do, so,

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Speaker 2: you know, just getting it evaluated. I have a feeling

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Speaker 2: that a replacement is going to be coming up at

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Speaker 2: some point in my life. I'm not sure I'm willing

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Speaker 2: to do that just yet. I'm hoping to, you know,

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Speaker 2: do some maybe other other less invasive interventions so I

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Speaker 2: can continue to function. But you know, I had to

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Speaker 2: go out and I'm sitting on this memory foam pad

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Speaker 2: right now because you know, it's like one of those emorids. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: just because it was hurting so much.

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Speaker 1: That's not funny.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Hey, I'm laughing. It's like this is just

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Speaker 2: turning out to be my curse. I'm probably going to

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Speaker 2: have probably all four you know, bow shoulders and both

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Speaker 2: hips at some point, you know, replaced. I just think

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Speaker 2: that's that's my curse. Is this arthritis. I was just

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Speaker 2: rough on my body over the decades.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I get that. And you know, we have

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Speaker 1: a family friend who had a double hip replacement. She

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Speaker 1: ended up doing great. I mean, you know, it was

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Speaker 1: I don't know if it was one after the other,

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Speaker 1: but pretty close and she felt great afterwards. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean I know of stories where people are in

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Speaker 1: a lot of pain. But also I've heard recently a

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Speaker 1: lot of success stories, so I hope you don't end

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Speaker 1: up there, but if you do, you know, I think

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Speaker 1: you can hopefully be optimistic about it.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, and I think there's you have your

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Speaker 2: total hip replacement, where they literally cut off the head

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Speaker 2: of the femur, you know, and dry a I'll stake

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Speaker 2: down the middle of your femur with a ball on

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Speaker 2: the end of it, and then of course the socket

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Speaker 2: is replaced as well. But there's also a resurfacing where

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Speaker 2: instead of cutting off the head of the femur, you know,

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Speaker 2: the ballpart, they literally remit down and put a metal

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Speaker 2: cup over it. And that's that's what I had done

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Speaker 2: for my shoulder and it's worked out great. So I'm

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Speaker 2: hoping if I have to go the replacement route that

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Speaker 2: i'm a candidate, and I think I am. You know,

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Speaker 2: they generally will do that for the younger, younger, more

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Speaker 2: active patience, and I'm probably still in what these surgeons

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Speaker 2: would consider the younger category. You know that I'm not

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Speaker 2: the seventy five year old. I'm the you know, late

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Speaker 2: fifties guy that's active.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean, gosh, I know that you we've talked

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Speaker 1: about your shoulders and everything. You've suffered from a lot

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Speaker 1: of different stuff. I'm glad I haven't hit any of

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Speaker 1: that yet, but I think I am going to end

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Speaker 1: up with a little bit of arthritis. I played indoor

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Speaker 1: soccer for quite a while, I mean as an adult,

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Speaker 1: and I've mentioned that before, and I separated my shoulder

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Speaker 1: and almost broke my nose, and I broke my ankle

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Speaker 1: and part of my foot. I mean, you know, and

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Speaker 1: then you start feeling it when you get older. And

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Speaker 1: I just never thought that was going to happen. So

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Speaker 1: why health? Physical health? I mean, course mental health, but

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Speaker 1: physical health as you get older is so important. I

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Speaker 1: go to the doctor. Are you a big doctor person?

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Speaker 1: I go to the doctor for everything. Probably too much.

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Speaker 2: I'm the typical guy, you know. I I generally put

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Speaker 2: you know, that's what happened with the shoulders. I just

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Speaker 2: kept putting it off and had no idea what was

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Speaker 2: going on. Now, as I've gotten older, it's sort of like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I have to pay attention to things a little bit

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Speaker 2: more so I'm getting better at it, but you know,

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Speaker 2: it's still it's a hurdle for me to kind of

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Speaker 2: get into that mindset of, oh, I probably should go

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Speaker 2: in and get seen on this or whatever.

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Speaker 1: You know, is that like a male thing, like the

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Speaker 1: way you're raised, just power through it. Because the way

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Speaker 1: I was raised was if you don't feel well, suffer,

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Speaker 1: get in there, find out what options you have. I

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Speaker 1: also can understand being scared, you know.

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Speaker 2: You know, I don't know. I can't really say that

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Speaker 2: there was anything about my upbringing that would have contributed

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Speaker 2: to that mindset. I just kind of, yeah, it's more

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Speaker 2: of that just suck it up and deal with it,

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Speaker 2: you know. My family laughs at me. I've got this

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Speaker 2: kind of this weird tolerance for pain. And as an example,

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Speaker 2: you know, I ruptured the medial ahead of my right

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Speaker 2: calf in my mid forties and didn't know I had

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Speaker 2: ruptured it, and a week later I was out there

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Speaker 2: trying to run on it and was wondering why my

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Speaker 2: foot is just flopping around right, you know. And I

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Speaker 2: never went into the doctor for that. I just kind

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Speaker 2: of let it heal up on it on its own,

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Speaker 2: even though I had a bunch of blood that had

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Speaker 2: settled down into the bottom of my foot. And it's

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Speaker 2: just that I don't know, you know it's I think

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Speaker 2: guys we have a greater tendency of not wanting to

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Speaker 2: go in. And part of it may be that fear

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Speaker 2: of being told or you got a problem. You know,

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Speaker 2: I kind of want to just nope, I don't want

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Speaker 2: to know about that.

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Speaker 1: Boy. My dad one time at night, we were, you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of a little far flung. We were in a

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Speaker 1: rural area at the farm, and one night he said,

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Speaker 1: I kept just chest pain and I don't know what's happening.

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Speaker 1: And we had just eaten dinner a while back, and

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Speaker 1: so he was settling in, he was laying in his chair.

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Speaker 1: I have this horrible chest pain and he and he

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Speaker 1: thought he was having a heart attack. So we rush

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Speaker 1: him to the hospital and they do tests and they

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Speaker 1: said to my stepmother, ma'am, what did he happen to

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Speaker 1: have for dinner? And she said he ate half a

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Speaker 1: pot roast And they said, your husband has angina. That's

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Speaker 1: what's going on me not having heart attack. Well that's good,

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Speaker 1: I mean, And I but I think goodness because he

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Speaker 1: would kind of sometimes put off stuff too, And I'm

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Speaker 1: just glad so that that's always taught me.

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Speaker 2: Man.

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Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not paranoid, but I definitely go in

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Speaker 1: and get stuff checked out. I don't miss appointments, but

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Speaker 1: certainly a lot of men and women do too well.

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Speaker 2: And I will say, you know, when it comes to

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Speaker 2: the chest pain, that's that's something I will pay attack. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, that's really my biggest fear is, you know,

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Speaker 2: the cardiac arrests, you know, the sudden death type of scenario.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I'm trying to do what I can

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Speaker 2: to avoid, you know, having risk factors for something like that.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, all I'm doing is saying hello to

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Speaker 1: you and we get a PSA on health of this. See,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad we're productive even when we're chatting at the beginning.

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Speaker 1: This is not a good segue at all. But we

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Speaker 1: are heading to the New York area for this. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's not a great segue at all. There's no way

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Speaker 1: to get out of that. So we're heading to New York,

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Speaker 1: which is where I lived for eight or nine years.

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Speaker 1: I lived in New York City, but we are kind

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Speaker 1: of all over the area for this next story. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna go ahead and set the scene. Trigger warning. We're

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Speaker 1: talking about sexual assault, giving just enough details that are

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Speaker 1: important for Paul, but not gratuitous. That's the goal for me.

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Speaker 1: We're going to start unfortunately. You know, sometimes we do

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Speaker 1: scene setting, sometimes we do the dynamics of a victim

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Speaker 1: or the offender's family, and then sometimes we start with

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Speaker 1: just a victim who's found. And that's why we're going

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Speaker 1: to start with this one. Just after midnight February sixteenth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight, there is a woman who's discovered at

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Speaker 1: the Green Acres Mall in Valley Stream, New York, which

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Speaker 1: is on Long Island. I have been to Long Island

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Speaker 1: a few times, but of course, what you know, the

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Speaker 1: first thing I think of with Long Island is the

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Speaker 1: Long Island serial killer case that's been happening and is

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Speaker 1: in the news, which is certainly not this case. But

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Speaker 1: when I first started reading about this, I thought, Okay,

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Speaker 1: now we're dealing with Long Island again. Did you do

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Speaker 1: anything on that case or no Long Island serial Killer.

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Speaker 2: I was interviewed by Laura Engler for a I think

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Speaker 2: it was a Fox News documentary and it was before

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Speaker 2: the case was solved, and I had it really paid

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Speaker 2: a time to the Long Island serial killer. And then

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Speaker 2: once they provided me some background and I was reading

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Speaker 2: up on it. It was a much more fascinating case

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Speaker 2: than what I realized. And of course, you know, they've

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Speaker 2: arrested Rex Huermen. Authoram has done work, you know, from

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Speaker 2: a genealogy side to try to identify some of the

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Speaker 2: victims that were out there on Gilgo Beach. And then

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Speaker 2: I did record a podcast relatively recently talking about there

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Speaker 2: were two other victims that this one guy and I'm

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Speaker 2: forgetting his name right now, that he was convicted of

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Speaker 2: and he was thought to have done this third victim. Well,

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Speaker 2: they just charged humor Men with this third victim. So

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Speaker 2: now there's a question about, well, is this one guy

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Speaker 2: who's sitting in prison actually responsible for these other two

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Speaker 2: cases or is that part of you know, humer Men's victims.

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Speaker 2: You know, so interesting, there's I think there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of more work that needs to be done to try

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Speaker 2: to figure that out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and I say Long Island serial case. Of course,

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Speaker 1: you know gig Beach. There's a lot happening over there.

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Speaker 1: So for our story, we're going to start with a

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Speaker 1: victim who is found outside of a mall. This is

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Speaker 1: February sixteenth, nineteen sixty eight, just after midnight and someone

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Speaker 1: discovers the body of a twenty three year old dance instructor.

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Speaker 1: Her name is Diane Cusick. She is discovered at the

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Speaker 1: Green Acres Mall in Valley Stream, New York. And I

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Speaker 1: can give you some more details in a minute. She

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Speaker 1: had a four year old daughter, she was estranged from

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Speaker 1: her husband, and she was living with her parents in

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Speaker 1: New Hyde Park, New York, which is also on Long Island.

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Speaker 1: So going backwards, and then you know, we'll talk about

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Speaker 1: damage done and everything else. We hop around a lot,

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Speaker 1: so I'll ask you you want to start with the

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Speaker 1: condition of the body and those kinds of details, or

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Speaker 1: do we want to talk about her timeline or what

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Speaker 1: do you think?

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Speaker 2: Well, let's just get right into it in terms of

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Speaker 2: what happened to her, and then we can work from there.

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Speaker 1: Her hands are found tied, her face is severely beaten,

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Speaker 1: and she has been sexually assaulted, and ultimately the county

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Speaker 1: Medical examiner says that she was strangled. So I think

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Speaker 1: you might find some of the details, you know, in

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Speaker 1: some of the stuff I'll talk to you about lacking

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Speaker 1: in details, like if we're talking about who the suspects

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Speaker 1: might be. But the basics are that that she was beaten,

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Speaker 1: sexually assaulted, strangled, and hands found tied together. And then

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Speaker 1: there's another physical thing that will be important. But do

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Speaker 1: you have any thoughts so far or now?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So let's give me some details about the location

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Speaker 2: where the body's at at this mall. Part of my

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Speaker 2: assessment is going to be was she attacked and assaulted

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Speaker 2: at this location? Or is this a dumping location? You know,

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Speaker 2: why did the offender choose this particular location? What time

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Speaker 2: of day? You know she likely was last seen, you know,

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Speaker 2: because the mall is you know, in the day, is

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Speaker 2: a very busy place. There's lots of potential witnesses, so,

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Speaker 2: you know, I kind of want to just get a

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Speaker 2: feel for this location.

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Speaker 1: Let me give you one more detail about something found

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Speaker 1: on her which might help, and then I'll go back

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Speaker 1: and kind of give you the timeline. So the Nassau

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Speaker 1: County DA says that Diane is found with an adhesive

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Speaker 1: band over her mouth, and the sixty eight edition of

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Speaker 1: news Day described it as a two inch wide adhesive

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Speaker 1: tape that had been wound around her mouth and her neck.

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Speaker 1: I don't have photos of this tape unfortunately, Okay, but

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Speaker 1: you know I'm wondering. So at sixty eight, of course

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Speaker 1: pre DNA testing, can they get fingerprints off of the tape,

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Speaker 1: assuming the offender's not wearing gloves.

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Speaker 2: Yes. In fact, you know this the description of this tape.

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Speaker 2: You know it sounds like what we commonly refer to

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Speaker 2: as tape, the gray tape that turns out to be

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Speaker 2: very good for fingerprints. You have both the gray side,

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Speaker 2: the non adhesive side where you can have fingerprints, but

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Speaker 2: even the adhesive side, the fingerprints can actually be impressed

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Speaker 2: in the adhesive. And so Layton examiners have the ability

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Speaker 2: to use different chemicals and powders in order to be

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Speaker 2: able to visualize those prints in the adhesive. Even if

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Speaker 2: the adhesive has been somewhat stuck on top of another surface,

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Speaker 2: by peeling it back, there could potentially still be some

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Speaker 2: rich detail that they can get they can find. Now,

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Speaker 2: what I don't know is whether or not they had

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Speaker 2: developed these techniques to go after this type of evidence

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Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty eight, and I will say by the

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Speaker 2: nineties they had tools to be able to go after

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Speaker 2: this type of evidence.

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Speaker 1: So in sixty eight, would it be powder or what

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Speaker 1: would they be doing in sixty eight just to compare

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Speaker 1: I mean, they would be using the old fashioned cards obviously,

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Speaker 1: if I mean the guy has to have a record,

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Speaker 1: I guess for you to be able to compare it.

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Speaker 2: Sure well, you know, first in nineteen sixty eight, you know,

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Speaker 2: they most certainly had a variety of different types of

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Speaker 2: techniques to develop Layton prints. And you know, Layton you

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Speaker 2: can have finger visible fingerprints and such as you know,

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Speaker 2: like a bloody fingerprint where you photograph it and you

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Speaker 2: can compare the details in that the ridge detail from

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Speaker 2: that bloody print to somebody's ten print card. But if

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Speaker 2: it's a latent print, that means it's not visible to

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Speaker 2: the naked eye in essence, and so you have to

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Speaker 2: use powders or different chemicals in order to visualize that.

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Speaker 2: And you know, of course there's a wide variety of

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Speaker 2: different colored powders. You know, if you have a black surface,

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Speaker 2: you're not going to use a black powder because you

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Speaker 2: need contrast. Then there's also magnetic powders that are good

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Speaker 2: for certain types of surfaces that the typical black powder

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Speaker 2: just doesn't work on. But then there's chemicals, like when

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Speaker 2: you have paper substances from the that are deposited when

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Speaker 2: you touch the paper, actually absorbed into the paper itself,

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Speaker 2: and so you need a chemical to go into the

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Speaker 2: matrix of the paper and react with where the fingerprint

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Speaker 2: residue is. And the one of the chemicals at the

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Speaker 2: use in nynhydrod, you know, and so you develop these

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Speaker 2: purple prints off of paper. So depending on what kind

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Speaker 2: of backing this adhesive tape has nineteen sixty eight, they

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Speaker 2: likely had a variety of methods that they could use

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Speaker 2: to at least get prints off of the non adhesive

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Speaker 2: side of this tape.

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Speaker 1: So they collect the tape, which is good. Let me

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Speaker 1: talk you about the timeline. That's kind of the last

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Speaker 1: physical detail I think as of right now. The timeline

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Speaker 1: is I told you she has a four year old daughter.

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Speaker 1: She's estrange for her husband. She's living with her parents.

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Speaker 1: So she's found at midnight on the sixteenth. Her parents

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Speaker 1: said that around seven o'clock that evening, so five hours

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Speaker 1: before she told her her mom and dad that she

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Speaker 1: was heading to the mall, the green Acre's Mall where

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Speaker 1: she was found, which is less than ten miles away,

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Speaker 1: and she wanted a new pair of dancing shoes. When

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Speaker 1: she didn't return her parents headed to the mall to

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Speaker 1: look for her, and they were the ones that found her.

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Speaker 1: They see her car in the parking lot of the mall,

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Speaker 1: then they discover her body in the back seat. So

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Speaker 1: she was parked in a poorly lit area. So there's

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Speaker 1: just less people around, fewer people around than normal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So the question would be did the offender interact

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Speaker 2: with the victim prior to her getting to the mall

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Speaker 2: or had she arrived at the mall and that's when

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Speaker 2: the offender before she even got into the mall, you know,

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Speaker 2: that's when the offender interacted with her and attacked her.

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Speaker 2: Or did he follow her out of the mall? You know,

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Speaker 2: what did she find that, you know, the shoes? Did

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Speaker 2: she have a you know, a bag with shoes in

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Speaker 2: it like she had purchased them? So that would give

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Speaker 2: some indication as to you know, the sequence of what

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Speaker 2: happened to her. Now, the location in the parking lot,

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Speaker 2: you know, where it's dark. You know, this may be

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Speaker 2: something where she parked there and the offender took advantage

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Speaker 2: of you know, that concealment and saw that. Maybe she

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Speaker 2: walked into the mall, walked out of the mall and

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Speaker 2: was heading to this car in a darker area of

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Speaker 2: the parking lot and decided this was a victim of opportunity.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is the kind of case that rings

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Speaker 1: in your head as a woman, and I'm sure as

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Speaker 1: a man of you know, having that feeling of dread,

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Speaker 1: which I've had time and time again too, when i

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Speaker 1: feel like I've parked in the wrong place and now

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Speaker 1: I'm trapped, and I just maybe I went somewhere, you know,

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Speaker 1: like a mall late in the afternoon, and I stayed

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Speaker 1: a lot longer than I thought, and then all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, it's dark and it's kind of desolate. And

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Speaker 1: so that is, you know, a big fear that a

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Speaker 1: lot of people have. So we don't have very much

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Speaker 1: information because there are no witnesses. They talked to more

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Speaker 1: than two thousand people who were in the vicinity of

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Speaker 1: the mall, and nobody saw her. Nobody saw anything, and

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Speaker 1: that was it. So this seems like a very gutsy's

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Speaker 1: not the right word, but bold, brazen thing to do

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Speaker 1: in a parking lot with presumably a lot of people

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Speaker 1: at one point. But maybe that helps distract or you know,

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Speaker 1: then people are not paying attention to one person because

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Speaker 1: there aren't a few people. There's lots of people around

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Speaker 1: it initially, but of course it was seven o'clock at night,

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Speaker 1: so I don't know, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And it's dark, you know, in February. I'm assuming, you know,

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Speaker 2: seven o'clock at night. If she's arriving at the mall,

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Speaker 2: she went straight to there, And that's what I'm going

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Speaker 2: to presume right now that yeah, you know, I think

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Speaker 2: if the offender is able to blitz her, she's not

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Speaker 2: able to put up much resistance. There's not a lot

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Speaker 2: of you know, she doesn't scream, she doesn't make a

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Speaker 2: lot of noise during this attack. It's possible people are

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Speaker 2: walking right by with blinders on, you know, and if

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Speaker 2: she's in the shadows. Because of the location where she parked,

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Speaker 2: I can see where you're you know, these witnesses aren't

359
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Speaker 2: any biness is even though you have people coming and

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Speaker 2: going from the mall and inside cars or walking to

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Speaker 2: their cars in the parking lot. But I still don't

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Speaker 2: have a confidence, if you will, based off of just

363
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Speaker 2: the limited amount of information that she was attacked at

364
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Speaker 2: this location. Is it possible she stopped for gas and

365
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Speaker 2: then she's blitzed at the gas station or stopped at

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Speaker 2: some other store on the way to the mall and

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Speaker 2: during you know, the let's say, the sexual assault, and

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Speaker 2: she's trying to talk her way out of you know

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Speaker 2: this with this offender as she say, well, I was

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Speaker 2: heading to the mall, and so after he kills her,

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Speaker 2: he drives the mall and walks away from the car.

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Speaker 1: Well, I can tell you that there's so little information.

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Speaker 1: You know, they clear the ex husband, so he's alibi,

374
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Speaker 1: and there's so little information that the case goes cold.

375
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Speaker 1: Probably you'll be able to guess pretty soon that we're

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Speaker 1: having multiple cases in this story because we don't have

377
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Speaker 1: a ton of information about what happens, you know, moving forward.

378
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Speaker 1: But just trust me, we're leading somewhere. I know, we

379
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:07,879
Speaker 1: like to have a lot, a lot, a lot of information,

380
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Speaker 1: but this goes cool.

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Speaker 2: And do you have any information as to what clothing

382
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Speaker 2: Diane still had on?

383
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Speaker 1: It looks like fully clothed. It doesn't say anything about

384
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Speaker 1: her not having any clothing on, missing clothing, ripped clothing,

385
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Speaker 1: anything like that. Severely beaten, sexually assaulted, but nothing about

386
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Speaker 1: removed clothing or anything.

387
00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:32,040
Speaker 2: Okay, and the sexual assault, are we talking they recovered

388
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Speaker 2: semen vaginally I believe.

389
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Speaker 1: So yes, Okay, moving forward, we're going to have another

390
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Speaker 1: victim that will eventually be tied to the killer from

391
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Speaker 1: the first victim. This is four years later, So this

392
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Speaker 1: is I'm going to want to talk about geographic profiling

393
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Speaker 1: at some point, Not right now, Paul, but I want

394
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Speaker 1: at some point we're going to want to talk about that. Sure,

395
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Speaker 1: four years So now we're May tenth, nineteen seventy two.

396
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Speaker 1: There's a passerby who discovers the body of twenty one

397
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Speaker 1: year old Mary Hinds, she sometimes called Mary Beth. She

398
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Speaker 1: is floating face down in a muddy, wooded Long Island creek.

399
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Speaker 1: This is about five miles from the mall. And that

400
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:16,040
Speaker 1: is one of the things that they start They're starting

401
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,320
Speaker 1: to thinking, Okay, we've had a pretty brutal murder here,

402
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,560
Speaker 1: but I'll give you more details. I have a photo

403
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,159
Speaker 1: of the scene that I sent you, which is not

404
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:26,920
Speaker 1: a great photo, I will say, but also I can

405
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,399
Speaker 1: give you I'm presuming what you want to know is

406
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,680
Speaker 1: you know, death and damage and all that stuff.

407
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:38,120
Speaker 2: Sure, so let's take a look at that photo. This

408
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:43,040
Speaker 2: is a photo that is taken looking down the road

409
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:47,120
Speaker 2: where Mary's body was found and zooming in on this.

410
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,080
Speaker 2: You know, I think the first thing that strikes me

411
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Speaker 2: because I don't know Long Island very well. I know

412
00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:58,040
Speaker 2: it's quite populated today, but this looks, you know, fairly remote.

413
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,720
Speaker 2: It looks like a reasonably very remote stretch of road.

414
00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:05,000
Speaker 2: It's a photo that's looking down the road. I can

415
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:10,040
Speaker 2: see vehicles parked on either side, which are potentially investigators

416
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:14,280
Speaker 2: vehicles or the you know, the passerby vehicle, the witness vehicle.

417
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:20,159
Speaker 2: It appears that there might be an underpass for the creek,

418
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,400
Speaker 2: and there's a wall on the left side. What strikes

419
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,320
Speaker 2: me is, you know, right at least this stretch of road,

420
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:30,720
Speaker 2: it's heavily wooded. You know, there's trees on both sides.

421
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,600
Speaker 2: There's high grass and bushes that are that are very dense.

422
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:40,359
Speaker 2: This appears to be a prototypical body dump location. You

423
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,240
Speaker 2: know that the offender chose, probably because at the time

424
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 2: of day or night when he dumped her body, there's

425
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,359
Speaker 2: few cars. There's risk a few cars that would be

426
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 2: traveling along this stretch of road.

427
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're right. Did you look at the

428
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:54,399
Speaker 1: poles there?

429
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:56,359
Speaker 2: Let me see, I had zoomed in.

430
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,240
Speaker 1: I can't tell if those are electric poles or if

431
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 1: those are lights. I'm guessing electric. Huh.

432
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Speaker 2: Well, there appears, you know, further down the road there

433
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:13,560
Speaker 2: is a street light, and then closer in the photograph

434
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:18,240
Speaker 2: to where the cars are parked, there is a utility pole.

435
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,199
Speaker 2: It doesn't appear that it has a light on it,

436
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,480
Speaker 2: but the trees are somewhat obscuring the top of it. Yeah,

437
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 2: you know, And so of course the question would be

438
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 2: is there sufficient lighting in this area or is this

439
00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:34,239
Speaker 2: also reasonably dark? And my guess is is that if

440
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 2: there's that one soul light along the stretch of road,

441
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 2: you know, it's not a very well lit road.

442
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,640
Speaker 1: Well, let me tell you about what happens with her.

443
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 1: So again, her name is Mary Hines, and she is

444
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,879
Speaker 1: twenty one. She's totally closed, but she is missing her

445
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 1: shoes and she still has her rings on her fingers,

446
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 1: so you know, that's part of the is this a

447
00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 1: robbery thing that they're thinking. But she has bruises on

448
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 1: her face and her neck, and an autopsy determines that

449
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: she was strangled.

450
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 2: Obviously, Mary has been dumped in this creek. Right now,

451
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 2: we don't have any information as to whether she was

452
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 2: killed at this particular location, or if the offender had

453
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,920
Speaker 2: killed her at a different location and then drove out

454
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 2: here and dumped her Mary being fully clothed, and that

455
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 2: we also saw that with with Diane. You know that

456
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 2: is somewhat significant. You know, some offenders really get off

457
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 2: on either cutting clothing off or tearing clothing off during

458
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:43,959
Speaker 2: a sexual assault. With with Mary, the missing shoes are interesting,

459
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 2: and you know, part of that could be you know,

460
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 2: what kind of shoes she had on, or these shoes

461
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 2: that would have, you know, fallen off pretty easily during

462
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 2: a fight. But I see this a lot where victims

463
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 2: when found they're they're missing one or both of their

464
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,880
Speaker 2: shoe shoes. One of the questions that I would have

465
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 2: with with Mary and being fully closed is was she

466
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:12,400
Speaker 2: sexually assaulted and redressed and her shoes were never put

467
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 2: back on? And this is a sequence that some offenders

468
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 2: will do. And it's either allowing the victim to redress

469
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 2: themselves and then in Mary's case, strangling killing Mary and

470
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 2: then dumping her body, but he doesn't bother putting the

471
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 2: shoes back on, or the offender will redress some victims

472
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 2: he's killed them, sexually assaulted, killed them and then will

473
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 2: put the victim's clothes on. And I've got cases where

474
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,880
Speaker 2: it's obvious the offender has redressed the victims. When you

475
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 2: you know, see these you know, pair of stretched pants

476
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 2: that are put on the victim and they're inside out

477
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 2: and backwards hunt her body. You know, it's like, yeah,

478
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 2: I don't think she did that to herself. Yeah, it's

479
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 2: just speculation at this point in terms of what what

480
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:56,919
Speaker 2: actually happened to her, you know. And this is where

481
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,719
Speaker 2: like with Diane, you know, vaginal seemen is found, but

482
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 2: she's she's fully clothed, and you know, of course, depending

483
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 2: on the types of clothes, I don't know if she

484
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 2: had jeans on or she had a skirt on, but

485
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:14,160
Speaker 2: most certainly you can have vaginal penetration while the clothes

486
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 2: are still on, if it's something like you know, underwear

487
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 2: and a skirt or a dress. So the offender is

488
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:24,679
Speaker 2: I would need to know more about the clothing in

489
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:26,720
Speaker 2: both both instances to try to get a sense for

490
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 2: what the offender is doing, how he is sexually assaulting

491
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,439
Speaker 2: the victims. Similar cause of death, you know, you have

492
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 2: what sounds like manual strangulation. There isn't a ligature found

493
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 2: you haven't mentioned a ligature, and he's beating these victims,

494
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 2: both Mary and Diane. You know about the face. You know,

495
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 2: the bruising to the neck is possibly a result of

496
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 2: the manual strangulation, because you do see that. You know,

497
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 2: sometimes the offenders will you know, do an arm bar

498
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 2: into the victim's neck and that could possibly cause some bruising.

499
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 2: But it sounds like this is an offender that is

500
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 2: likely using his fists to gain compliance. He's hitting these victims,

501
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 2: he's overpowering them, he's beating them in the face, sexually

502
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 2: assaulting them, killing them through manual strangulation. You know. So

503
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 2: there's overlap in terms of the the mo between both

504
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:20,439
Speaker 2: Diane and Mary's case.

505
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 1: Well, I wanted to get you the details that you've

506
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: been asking for about clothing, and the New York State

507
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,360
Speaker 1: has a data portal on cold cases. So I took

508
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: a look and let me tell you first about Diane,

509
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 1: because I know you wanted to know about clothing and

510
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:40,199
Speaker 1: I have a little bit more information. So bruises on

511
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 1: both eyes, lips, bridge of her nose. Here's what she

512
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 1: was wearing, so black leotard, but they say it's torn.

513
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,479
Speaker 1: So I didn't know that she's wearing a mini skirt,

514
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,159
Speaker 1: black leotard. They say leotard's I don't know if you

515
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 1: if that's plural or not. I've always said leotard, but

516
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 1: black leotard. That's torn, a mini skirt, a red black else,

517
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:04,919
Speaker 1: a tan car coat, and she's wearing white boots and

518
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: all of this is on her when they find her.

519
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 1: There were marks on her wrist, you know, of course,

520
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,199
Speaker 1: and then they found restraints, the purses in the car,

521
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 1: and the jewelry she was wearing was untouched. And you know, so,

522
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: I mean, we've said this is probably not robbery motivated.

523
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: I have a little bit more information about Mary Beth. Also,

524
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 1: whenever you want to talk about.

525
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 2: That Diane's case, do they find the shoes she went

526
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 2: to the mall for or receipt that she had? Know

527
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:36,679
Speaker 2: is there any information that ind case she actually went

528
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 2: into the mall and then made it back to the car,

529
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 2: versus being attacked as soon as she drove into the

530
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 2: parking lot and was ready to get into the mall

531
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 2: or go into the mall.

532
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 1: I don't see that. But they say that she was murdered.

533
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: They think between ten and ten PM and midnight and

534
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 1: if she's supposed to be there at seven, Yeah, I

535
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: don't see that. I mean I could definitely poke around

536
00:28:58,400 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 1: and try to find that too.

537
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 2: I'm just trying to get a sense for the offender.

538
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 2: Is he somebody that is trolling for victims by wandering

539
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 2: around through the mall, you know, and therefore he's being

540
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 2: seen by witnesses that are shopping, you know, And sometimes

541
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 2: you get that, Oh, there's this guy that just is

542
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 2: the strange looking man that's you know, wandering around. And

543
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 2: I saw this man follow this woman out of the

544
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 2: you know, the Macy's front door, out to her car.

545
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 2: Versus he is maybe in a vehicle in a dark

546
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 2: part of the parking lot, just waiting for a woman

547
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 2: to park next to him, and then he pounces on

548
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 2: her and attacks her right at that spot. So it's

549
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,240
Speaker 2: just trying to get a sense for how he is

550
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 2: potentially finding his victims and selecting his victims. Now, of course,

551
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 2: with Diane's clothing, just like what I was somewhat speculating,

552
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 2: like with Mary the black leotards in a skirt, he

553
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 2: does not need to remove the clothing in order to

554
00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 2: be able to have a vaginal intercourse. With with Diane.

555
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 2: So in some ways, you know, that's uh, I don't

556
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 2: know if that's his preference. I have to see, you know,

557
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 2: how Mary is dressed. I guess.

558
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's talk about Mary. And this is from

559
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: that cold case site, which is very helpful. Okay, ligature strianulation,

560
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 1: bruises on the face. She was wearing hot pants, white

561
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: hot pants, and a blue jumper suit. Are you old

562
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:28,479
Speaker 1: enough to understand that maybe I'm not shoes in her

563
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: in her stockings are missing, and her purse is missing,

564
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: and they cannot determine whether she's been sexually assaulted.

565
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 2: Okay, so they're not they're not finding you know, like

566
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 2: obvious sexual assault evidence, like semen evidence, at least with it.

567
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 2: Whatever they did, you know, in all likelihood, of course,

568
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 2: there's there's this is a sexually motivated crime. If she's

569
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 2: with these hot pants and the jump suit, I'm envisioning

570
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 2: something that the hot you know, she could pull these

571
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 2: pants up over, you know, with this jump suit, and

572
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 2: it sounds like that in place. So this is where

573
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 2: you know, her socks are off and her shoes are off.

574
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 2: Right now, I would say she's probably redressed. I don't know,

575
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: if if she did it herself, she was allowed to

576
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 2: redress after some sort of sexual interaction, or if the

577
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 2: offender redressed her, which would be interesting. If the offender

578
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 2: is sexually assaulting and then killing these victims and redressing

579
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 2: them himself in a way, that's a It's like some

580
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 2: offenders after they kill their victim, they'll put a blanket

581
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 2: over the victim in order to in essence hide the

582
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 2: victim having to look at what they just did, right,

583
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 2: and in some ways by redressing these women, if that's

584
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,840
Speaker 2: what he's doing, this may be in his psychology of

585
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,239
Speaker 2: trying to hide the fact that he went over the

586
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 2: line in his mind of what he psychologically thinks he

587
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 2: should be doing with these victims and is now trying

588
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 2: to put you know, being in the sense of denial.

589
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 2: You know, I'm redressing them so it doesn't look like

590
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 2: there're sexually assaulted.

591
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you about Mary. Mary is as I

592
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 1: had said twenty one. She was a nanny. She had

593
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: been missing for five days, and so this is May,

594
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 1: but it's also the northeast, so it's going to be

595
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 1: probably cooler, and she will be in a creek. I

596
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: don't know if that's going to have any impact on

597
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 1: discovering scientific sexual assault or not. But she was coming

598
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: home from a dance in Hempstead, New York. And this

599
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 1: is about five miles from the creek, just a couple

600
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: of miles from the creek, and it is on Hempstead

601
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 1: Lake in the Rockville center of New York, which I

602
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 1: said is five miles from where Diane was, so close together,

603
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 1: but four years apart. And by the way, there's two

604
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 1: million people in nineteen seventy, two years earlier, two million

605
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 1: people in Long Island.

606
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so I mean this is a large population base,

607
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 2: and of course it is. You know, basically Log Island

608
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 2: connects to Manhattan, New York City, so it's a huge

609
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 2: population base. You know, the county that I worked in,

610
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 2: Contracosta County, had a population base about one point two million.

611
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 2: So Long Island by itself is almost double the population

612
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 2: base of my jurisdiction, my former jurisdiction. And so this

613
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 2: is where this type of crime you can't immediately assume

614
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 2: it's done by the same offender, okay, because there are

615
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,720
Speaker 2: multiple predators in any of these types of population bases

616
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 2: operating at the same time.

617
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:37,479
Speaker 1: Well, now we're going to move from Mary, who is

618
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: the second victim, and that case is not even declared

619
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 1: cold yet because there is now a third victim. And

620
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 1: I will say, as you have probably guessed, we're talking

621
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 1: about a serial killer here. This is a woman named

622
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: Laverne moy and this is happening. It went from May.

623
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: This is June, same year, June twentieth, just a couple

624
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 1: of months after, a boy, a little boy finds LaVerne's

625
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:10,200
Speaker 1: partially nude body underneath a small bridge that runs over

626
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 1: the exact same creek where Mary was. So Laverne is

627
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: twenty three, and she's black and the other two victims

628
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 1: are white. So do you want to talk about that first,

629
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 1: or do you want to talk about her injuries? Or

630
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:25,439
Speaker 1: where do you want to go from here?

631
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 2: Well, let me just address that straight up. Is it's

632
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 2: a myth that these serial predators will have a specific

633
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 2: type of victim, whether it's a certain age, certain race,

634
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 2: certain look, and a lot of that I blame the

635
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 2: media for because of the coverage of Ted Bundy. You know,

636
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 2: he went after Brunette co Edz. That's what everybody thinks.

637
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 2: And the reality is is most of these predators have

638
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:58,839
Speaker 2: a wide range of demographics in their victims. And some

639
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 2: of this is just due to their finding victims of

640
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 2: opportunity and they'll take whoever is fitting in their mindset,

641
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 2: somebody that they can victimize. But many offenders will have

642
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 2: a series in which you see victims of different races.

643
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:23,359
Speaker 2: Sometimes you'll see different genders that are being victimized by

644
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:27,839
Speaker 2: the same offender. Sometimes, like what we call crossover offenders,

645
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 2: you'll see offenders that are victimizing children and adults, whether

646
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 2: it's just sexual assault or it's these are serial killers.

647
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,839
Speaker 2: So the fact that Laverne is black and Mary and

648
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 2: Diane were white means nothing in terms of this must

649
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 2: be a different offender. You know, this is common, this

650
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 2: is typical. So right now I thought we had a

651
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:54,959
Speaker 2: clear image of how you know this offender is coming

652
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 2: across as victims, But right now I would say that

653
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 2: seems to be wide open. I do think with Laverne,

654
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 2: she is deposited partially nude, and so that seems like

655
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 2: there's a little bit of an evolution that might be

656
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 2: going on in terms of how you know how much

657
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 2: the offender is dealing with the victim's clothing, But he

658
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,320
Speaker 2: is using the same creek that he did with Mary

659
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 2: versus Diane. And it'll be interesting to see as the

660
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 2: series goes, does he seem to continue to do that

661
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 2: because he's decided that that's a safer and lower risk

662
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 2: body disposal process than the mall parking lot that he

663
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 2: did with Diane.

664
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, let me tell you more information about what happens

665
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: with Laverne. So she was a ward clerk in a

666
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 1: local hospital. She was with her grandmother in Queens, so

667
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,840
Speaker 1: she is ten miles away. So obviously he is not

668
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 1: meeting these people where they live. He's meeting them in

669
00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 1: these locations. I guess she was missing for three days.

670
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: Her cause of death, just like Mary and Diane, was strangulation,

671
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:12,800
Speaker 1: but it sounds like sexual assault, just like in Mary's

672
00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:16,959
Speaker 1: case where she was also found in the creek is undetermined.

673
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,919
Speaker 1: And you know, they are literally paul steps away from

674
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: each other where these bodies were found. And of course

675
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 1: now the media has linked these cases and I can

676
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:27,239
Speaker 1: tell you about clothing and stuff too.

677
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 2: You know, I think with this line of question that

678
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 2: I have right now is you know, I'm trying to

679
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:36,360
Speaker 2: figure out how the offender is coming across the victims.

680
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,360
Speaker 2: With Diane at the mall. I'm going to presume that

681
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 2: he didn't end up coming across her before she got

682
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 2: to the mall. So he's either laying in wait for

683
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 2: the right situation to be able to attack a woman,

684
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 2: or he's following Diane out of the mall, he sees

685
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 2: her and turns out that her car is in a

686
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 2: perfect location for him to be able to pull an

687
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 2: attack off. With Laverne right now, you know, she's maybe

688
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 2: getting off work, and of course she's having to walk

689
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 2: out to her car. And again it's somewhat similar. Is

690
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 2: he lying in wait by her car? Is he just

691
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 2: in this parking lot for one reason? Is he inside

692
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 2: the you know, the hospital ward for legit purposes, or

693
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 2: for whatever reason he's decided that's place to be able

694
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 2: to troll for victims. With Mary, that's still unclear in

695
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 2: terms of, you know, how what her last activity was

696
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 2: before you know the offender would have run across her.

697
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 1: Do you want to talk about clothing.

698
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's hear more about Laverne.

699
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: She was wearing a black blouse and high black leather boots.

700
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 1: She was nude from the waist down. She had eight

701
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 1: pieces of costume jewelry, including three silver wire bracelets, a

702
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 1: silver watch, a yellow metal ring, a gold ring with

703
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 1: a lavender stone, and a silver wire type expansion ring

704
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 1: and they were all there. So she had all of

705
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 1: this stuff, but she was wearing a blouse and high

706
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 1: black leather boots and nothing else.

707
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 2: Okay, And we don't have witnesses who last oliver and

708
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,359
Speaker 2: to describe her lower garments, like she had pants on

709
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 2: or did she have a skirt or anything like that.

710
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 1: Not that I know of.

711
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 2: Now, you know, these high boots, this type of footwear

712
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 2: doesn't sound like something that pants would be able to

713
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 2: be slid over if she had been wearing pants. Sounds

714
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,720
Speaker 2: like for the pants to come off, either the boots

715
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 2: came off, pants underwear came off and then the boots

716
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 2: were put back on, or were the pants cut off

717
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 2: offenders will cut clothing off, or she had clothing that

718
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 2: could easily be pulled off. Yeah, you know, and the

719
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 2: boots didn't have to come off. Now they're not finding

720
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,800
Speaker 2: evidence of sexual assault, but this is obviously a sexually

721
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 2: motivated crime. And you know, again, I don't know how

722
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 2: thoroughly they're looking for evidence of sexual assault, because you

723
00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 2: can definitely have you know, back in the early seventies.

724
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:15,120
Speaker 2: You know, they weren't necessarily processing the victim's body very

725
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:19,879
Speaker 2: very thoroughly for physical evidence like that. But also some

726
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:23,320
Speaker 2: offenders can't get it up even though it's a sexually

727
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 2: motivated crime, so they don't leave any physical you know,

728
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 2: physical evidence, DNA evidence. Today behind outside Diane, we have

729
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 2: vaginal semen, so we know he you know what in

730
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 2: California we would call a rape. But it's a definitely

731
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 2: all three are these are sexually motivated crimes. This is

732
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 2: a serial killer, yes, And.

733
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 1: We have to continue on with his next victim. So

734
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: we are still on Long Island. And this is about

735
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 1: a year later, a year after Laverne. July twentieth, nineteen

736
00:40:56,200 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 1: seventy three, and this is a woman named Hyman. She

737
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 1: is thirty three years old. She is found in her

738
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 1: home which is north Woodmere, New York. It's about five

739
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 1: miles from Rockville Center, which is where Mary and Laverne

740
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 1: were found in the Creek, Okay, and just a couple

741
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:18,360
Speaker 1: of miles from the green Acre's Mall and Valley stream.

742
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 1: And then I can tell you the details of what

743
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 1: was supposed to happen. You know, last time people saw

744
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 1: her or I can tell you the details of what happened.

745
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,399
Speaker 1: I mean, I can tell you. It's unfortunately a little

746
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 1: rinse repeat here. You know, that's one of the reasons

747
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 1: why they're saying this has got to be a serial

748
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 1: killer that's connected.

749
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, yeah, tell me where is Sheila inside the house?

750
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 2: She fully closed? How was she killed?

751
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 1: So she and her husband have three sons. They were

752
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 1: all away, thankfully, at summer camp earlier. In that morning

753
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: of July twentieth, her husband left the house to go

754
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: to a department store to get some toys, and Sheila

755
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,919
Speaker 1: was home alone. So he's gone early in the morning.

756
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: He comes back at one thirty, and he finds her

757
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 1: bludgeon to death in their primary bathroom. She has been,

758
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: according to the autopsy, struck in the head fifteen times

759
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 1: with a blunt object that has never been recovered. The

760
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 1: New York Times reported in seventy three that the police

761
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 1: said the bathroom was covered in so much blood that

762
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: it was several hours before they could be certain that

763
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:24,200
Speaker 1: she had been beaten rather than an accidental fall. There

764
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 1: was blood all over the place. And then I have

765
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 1: details about the house and locks and all that kind

766
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 1: of stuff. So what do you think so far in

767
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 1: the house this is different.

768
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's definitely different. And you know, again this

769
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 2: is scene where we see offenders attack victims outside as

770
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 2: well as entering houses, and it's all the same offender.

771
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 2: So again, just because it's different doesn't indicate it's a

772
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 2: different offender. The bludgeoning with all the blood in the

773
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 2: bathroom struck fifteen times probably, you know, you've got blood

774
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 2: spatter that's going to be a result of you know,

775
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 2: blows from this weapon whatever it is, into the pooled

776
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 2: blood sources on her head. You have bleeding out onto

777
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 2: the floor. You know, a lot of the blood inside

778
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:13,280
Speaker 2: this bathroom may have flowed out of her body after

779
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 2: the offender left. You know, it's a misconception that this

780
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 2: offender would have had to walk out of his house

781
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 2: with a ton of blood on him. No, you know,

782
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 2: he definitely is escalating for the first three. You know,

783
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 2: he's beating these women on the head, in the face.

784
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 2: Now he's using a weapon to a point where now

785
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 2: you have significant injuries to the head, much more so

786
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 2: than what we're seeing with the previous three. So this

787
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 2: is something that he's stepping up on. And you know,

788
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:47,200
Speaker 2: typically this type of bludgeoning. This is where the offender is.

789
00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 2: This is what I would characterize sort of your anger

790
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:53,320
Speaker 2: retaliatory offender. He is angry at something in his life

791
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 2: and he's taken out taken that anger out on his

792
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,720
Speaker 2: victims by proxy, and so now something there's a reason

793
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 2: why he's stepping up this part of his attack.

794
00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 1: Do you feel like he is accelerating. I mean, he's

795
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 1: gone from an isolated parking lot to an isolated creek.

796
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 1: But then just a few months later, another victim in

797
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 1: the almost exact same spot. And now he's entering somebody's house.

798
00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 1: And I wanted to clarify the husband left at eleven

799
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 1: am and he came home at one point thirty. So

800
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 1: this is not a large window. I know you can

801
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,399
Speaker 1: do a lot, but for a stranger to come in.

802
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 1: She's wearing a night gown and the lacerations are just,

803
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 1: to be very specific, her skull. She had a fractured

804
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 1: jaw and a lacerated jugular vein. I didn't know you

805
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 1: can do that with a blunt object.

806
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 2: I think with a significant enough blow to the neck,

807
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 2: you know, And this is where he's using a weapon,

808
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 2: and you know it's a weapon. That he's able to

809
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 2: put a fair amount of force into you know, so

810
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 2: you know if you strike the neck and may not

811
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 2: purposely be aiming for the neck, it's just you know,

812
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,919
Speaker 2: she's struggling, she's fighting, and he's you know, bringing down

813
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 2: the weapon and may have caught her in the neck

814
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:12,760
Speaker 2: with a pretty significant blow. But in terms of accelerating,

815
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:18,320
Speaker 2: what is seen in a series oftentimes is you'll see

816
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 2: clusters and then the offender doesn't commit a crime for

817
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 2: a longer stretch and then maybe does one two or

818
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 2: does another cluster. And this may be how his personal

819
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 2: life is impacting his either his ability to go out

820
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 2: and troll for victims and kill victims, or he has

821
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 2: stressors that have happened and now he has an internal

822
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 2: psychology in which he needs to go out and has

823
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 2: a compulsion to go out and commit these types of crimes.

824
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 2: And then once you know that stress or relaxes in

825
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 2: his mind, then you may see him retreat from committing attacks.

826
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 2: So it's kind of hard to say why the offender

827
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 2: is doing crimes. More frequently, we have the four year

828
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 2: gap from Diane to Mary's case that we know of,

829
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 2: and then now we have cases that are happening on

830
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 2: a more frequent basis. We don't know why, you know,

831
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 2: at this point, but it does appear that at least

832
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 2: with the bludgeoning of Sheila and the amount of damage

833
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 2: he's doing to her skull, her face, her neck, he's

834
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 2: amping up on that violence that for whatever reason.

835
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 1: Now, the police say that the house was locked up,

836
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:35,320
Speaker 1: no signs of forced entry, no open windows, no valuables taken.

837
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 1: I know that we've talked about the power of a

838
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 1: weapon or a gun pointed at you and then you

839
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,799
Speaker 1: forced inside and the doors locked behind you, you know,

840
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 1: after the person leaves. But you know, that was that

841
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:50,879
Speaker 1: was part of what they thought was strange. They looked

842
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 1: at the husband, they cleared him eventually, and then the

843
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 1: case goes cold.

844
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I would just be looking if I'm the

845
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 2: CSI and this house is completely locked up. It's like,

846
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 2: is it possible for the offender to have been able

847
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 2: to lock the house up himself and leave, you know,

848
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:10,359
Speaker 2: through a door and the door locks behind him because

849
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 2: the way the locking mechanism works. Did he steal the

850
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 2: victim's keys, you know and lock the door behind That's

851
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 2: you know, that's just part of what's going on. Here,

852
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:23,759
Speaker 2: or is this an offender that you know, Let's say

853
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 2: he's a very accomplished burglar, is able to get inside

854
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:28,760
Speaker 2: the house and was inside the house when the husband

855
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 2: was there, and once the husband leaves, now the offender

856
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,799
Speaker 2: attacks again, goes is able to lock up the house

857
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 2: and make it look like nothing's awry until the husband

858
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 2: finds Sheila's body.

859
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 1: Okay, I said it went cold, and that case went cold.

860
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 1: So now we're going to a couple of months after

861
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 1: Sheila was murdered in July of seventy three. Now we're

862
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 1: in December of seventy three, and this victim is an

863
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 1: eighteen year old named Maria s Marita Rosata Nievez, and

864
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 1: she's found in an overgrown part of Jones Beach, not

865
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: far from a bus stop. This is about twenty minutes

866
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: from Sheila's house, twenty minutes from the green Acre's Mall,

867
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:16,399
Speaker 1: twelve miles from the Rockville Center. You know, it's all

868
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,720
Speaker 1: on Long Island, so everything is on Long Island. Sure,

869
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 1: I don't have a picture of that scene, unfortunately, but

870
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 1: they said it's very overgrown. She was discovered by workers

871
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:29,880
Speaker 1: who were trying to prune a tree. She was wrapped

872
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:33,799
Speaker 1: in a blanket and covered with plastic bags, so her

873
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 1: hands were tied behind her knees. Her neck had a

874
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:40,359
Speaker 1: ligature mark on it. She had been strangled. No word

875
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:42,800
Speaker 1: on sexual assault, and there's not a lot of information

876
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 1: on Maria. She came from Puerto Rico.

877
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 2: This is significant. You know she's wrapped in a blanket

878
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 2: and plastic, so she's been packaged for transport. Obviously this

879
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:57,400
Speaker 2: is a body dump location. And where is the offender

880
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 2: at to have access to this blanket and plastic? Is

881
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 2: it possible he took Maria back to his house? Is

882
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:08,359
Speaker 2: it possible that he brought this blanket and plastic with

883
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 2: him because he knew he was going to go out

884
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:13,439
Speaker 2: and find a victim. Why is she being wrapped this way?

885
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:15,760
Speaker 2: Does she have bleeding injuries? Is he trying to prevent

886
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 2: her blood from being in his car?

887
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 1: It's by a bus stop.

888
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:24,400
Speaker 2: Also, buses are so sporadic and periodic in terms of

889
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:28,880
Speaker 2: their schedule. I'm not sure the offender is choosing that

890
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 2: location because of the bus stop. May not have even

891
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:34,839
Speaker 2: known that the bus stop was necessarily that may not

892
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 2: have been a feature that he even paid attention to.

893
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 2: I guess is what I'm trying to say, he just

894
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:41,279
Speaker 2: found a location where there's he was confident that he

895
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 2: would be able to park, pull Maria's body out, dump it,

896
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 2: you know, if he hid the body or whatever, get

897
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,360
Speaker 2: in the car and drive off and had you know,

898
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 2: confidence that there would be no witnesses.

899
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 1: Now, she lived in Manhattan, so I wonder if she

900
00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 1: took a bus in and he I saw her at

901
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 1: this bus stop, and I can tell you about the

902
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:05,920
Speaker 1: clothing that she was wearing, and I can tell you

903
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 1: that she had defensive knife wounds on her hands.

904
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 2: See, I would argue that he's not seeing her at

905
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 2: the bus stop, okay, because of the packaging, you know,

906
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:21,839
Speaker 2: the blanket and the plastic. You know, he's transported her

907
00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 2: body after he killed her to that location. It's just

908
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 2: that where has he taken her. I've got a series

909
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 2: where I'm confident that one of the victims I'm going

910
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:36,279
Speaker 2: to use a geographic profiling term, was taken back to

911
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 2: the one of the offender's anchor points, whether it be

912
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,879
Speaker 2: his residence, a place of work after hours where there's

913
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:46,400
Speaker 2: no other employees, you know, and then after killing the victim,

914
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 2: you know, in this particular case, he bleached the victim's

915
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 2: body down, and actually it appears that he packaged her

916
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:55,080
Speaker 2: up and dumped her at a different location. We have

917
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 2: soil on her body that's not from the location her

918
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:00,239
Speaker 2: body was dumped, so we know he took her to

919
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:04,319
Speaker 2: a different location prior to dumping her body where she

920
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 2: was found. I would say that this is what's going

921
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:10,000
Speaker 2: on with Maria. It's just that where is he taking her.

922
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 1: She had a boyfriend and roommates in New York. They

923
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:15,919
Speaker 1: don't even have a photo over aside from the one

924
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:19,800
Speaker 1: that was taken at her death and at the crime scene.

925
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:21,880
Speaker 1: You know, they don't have a photo if you go

926
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 1: searching for it. They found a light cord, like maybe

927
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 1: an electric cord or a thin cord you know, that bound

928
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 1: her wrists behind her knees. She was wearing a white

929
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:37,640
Speaker 1: braw and light blue denim jeans, but no blouse, no shoes,

930
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 1: or no stockings.

931
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:44,560
Speaker 2: Sounds like the thin cord it's binding her her wrists

932
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:50,400
Speaker 2: but also to her knees. In other words, this cord

933
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 2: is part of the packaging of her body, trying to

934
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:57,360
Speaker 2: keep her more compact, to be more easily moved, versus

935
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:01,480
Speaker 2: a floppy body that's dead weight that does This is

936
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 2: just a packaging. It's not necessarily binding. Of the risks

937
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:07,919
Speaker 2: in this case may not be to control her. She's

938
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 2: wearing a white bra, no blouse, liked blue jeans, but

939
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:16,280
Speaker 2: no shoes and socks. Yep. Yeah, so this is where

940
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:21,880
Speaker 2: I go back to. I think those jeans were possibly

941
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 2: put back on her. This may be an offender that

942
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 2: is redressing his victims.

943
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:29,520
Speaker 1: And we've talked about that, but I'm not sure we've

944
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 1: ever really we've never had multiple victims where that's happened.

945
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:35,839
Speaker 1: We've talked about how that's happened. So this case goes

946
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:39,280
Speaker 1: cold with Maria, as it does with all the other cases,

947
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 1: and Maria is the fifth one in this series. Now

948
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 1: we are actually going to leave Long Island and we're

949
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,000
Speaker 1: going to a totally different state. We're going to New

950
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:51,960
Speaker 1: Jersey where we have another victim. So this is in

951
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:57,880
Speaker 1: seventy seven, So Maria happened in seventy three, four years later,

952
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:00,440
Speaker 1: probably a little less than four years later. And then

953
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:03,200
Speaker 1: it's a twenty six year old woman named Marianne Carr.

954
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:06,279
Speaker 1: She is an X ray technician. She goes missing from

955
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:09,960
Speaker 1: her apartment complex while her husband is away on business.

956
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:12,880
Speaker 1: Her body is going to be discovered in the parking

957
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 1: lot of equality in motel and has Brook Heights, which

958
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:21,200
Speaker 1: is Bergen County, New Jersey, and it's very close to

959
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 1: her apartment. She's wearing all of her clothes, but her

960
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:28,320
Speaker 1: shoes are missing. She has ligature marks on her hands

961
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 1: and her feet, and they say there is also that

962
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:35,840
Speaker 1: adhesive residue around her mouth that is the same kind

963
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:38,680
Speaker 1: that was found in the very first victim from years ago,

964
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:41,399
Speaker 1: Diane Kusick in New Jersey too.

965
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:45,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, people move around. Now, we're talking

966
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 2: about a four year gap in time. You of course,

967
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 2: one of the questions is has the offender relocated, maybe

968
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 2: he got a job out there, changed residents, or is

969
00:53:55,560 --> 00:54:00,319
Speaker 2: he purposely driving out there maybe to start reoffending and

970
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 2: doesn't want this case linked to the other cases on

971
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 2: Long Island. Don't know. At this point, she's got all

972
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 2: her clothes on except her shoes are missing. We see

973
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 2: a trend here. Frequently I'm seeing victims when their bodies

974
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 2: are dumped where they're missing one or both shoes, as

975
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 2: I mentioned before, And that's just sort of a practical

976
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:24,640
Speaker 2: aspect of you know, when the offender's dumping the body.

977
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:27,360
Speaker 2: You know, sometimes he's not taking the time to clean

978
00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:29,319
Speaker 2: out his vehicle of everything that's in there, and then

979
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:31,640
Speaker 2: as he's driving away, he goes, oh, her shoes are

980
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:34,719
Speaker 2: right here and starts throwing them out. But it's in

981
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 2: this case it seems like there is a trend with

982
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 2: the shoes that right now can't draw conclusion. You know,

983
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:44,360
Speaker 2: does he have some sort of weird fetish, you know,

984
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 2: like a foot fetish, like a Jerry Brutos and that's

985
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:50,320
Speaker 2: why he's exposing these women's feet. Is he keeping shoes

986
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 2: as souvenirs? Which I wouldn't put it outside the realm

987
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:55,640
Speaker 2: of possibility. It's just that that could be, you know,

988
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:59,719
Speaker 2: easily found if law enforcement got onto him, or it

989
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:03,319
Speaker 2: may be a side effect of the redressing aspect, if

990
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:05,800
Speaker 2: that's what he is doing and he's just not taking

991
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:09,839
Speaker 2: the time to put shoes back on. It's interesting that

992
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 2: she had binding marks on both wrists and ankles, and

993
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 2: yet she's found very near to where her apartment complex is.

994
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 2: And she also had adhesive indicating that, you know, a

995
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:24,320
Speaker 2: tape had been applied to her, but it's been removed,

996
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:26,880
Speaker 2: so the binding material and the tape have been removed.

997
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:30,800
Speaker 2: I think she's been taken to a location, probably sexually

998
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:34,720
Speaker 2: assaulted and or killed there, and then is transported back

999
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:39,840
Speaker 2: in this state and dumped in this motel parking lot.

1000
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 2: You know. So he's willing to move these victims around

1001
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 2: in his vehicle. He's using a vehicle, and he's taken

1002
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 2: them to a secondary location, whether it be his residents,

1003
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:55,240
Speaker 2: place of work, someplace where he can interact with the victims.

1004
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 2: So it's interesting.

1005
00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:59,600
Speaker 1: Okay, let me tell you a little bit more, just

1006
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:02,120
Speaker 1: some of kind of my own research here about the

1007
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:06,319
Speaker 1: details from that night. There is a retired chief of

1008
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 1: police named Alan Grico, and he says a resident of

1009
00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:13,280
Speaker 1: the building informed us that at approximately seven forty five

1010
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 1: pm she heard the scream of a female coming from

1011
00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:19,880
Speaker 1: the direction of Marianne's apartment and the words being uttered,

1012
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 1: I will, I will, And then she was found the

1013
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 1: next morning, still wearing her uniform. Remember she was an

1014
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:31,880
Speaker 1: X ray technician. Her body had been beaten and lying

1015
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:36,640
Speaker 1: against a fence in that quality in parking lot. She

1016
00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:39,800
Speaker 1: had been strangled and the police say likely by her necklace,

1017
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:43,040
Speaker 1: and of course there's the ankle on the wrists that

1018
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 1: had ligature marks on him.

1019
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:47,719
Speaker 2: So in this case, it sounds like Marianne. She gets

1020
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:50,440
Speaker 2: off work and she's going home to her apartment and

1021
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:54,600
Speaker 2: is attacked as she's entering her apartment and she's in

1022
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:58,719
Speaker 2: her uniform. The offender is pulling her back to his

1023
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:01,760
Speaker 2: vehicle on where is that vehicle at? Is that actually

1024
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:04,439
Speaker 2: in the apartment complex parking lot or did he park

1025
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:08,759
Speaker 2: it around the side. But he is abducting her and

1026
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:12,359
Speaker 2: taking her to a different location, and that's where he

1027
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 2: is now attacking her and then eventually has her fully

1028
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:21,000
Speaker 2: bound up, has adhesive apply to her, and it sounds

1029
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 2: like the adhesive is over her mouth like in Diane's case.

1030
00:57:24,240 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 2: And of course that's being used as a gig, you know.

1031
00:57:27,080 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 2: So he's concerned about her screaming, you know, so he's

1032
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 2: trying to prevent that from happening. He may be putting

1033
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:35,800
Speaker 2: this binding in, this adhesive on her once he gets

1034
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 2: her to his vehicle, so he's trying to keep her

1035
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 2: under both physical control as well as audio control, if

1036
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 2: that's even a thing term. But he's taking her to

1037
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:53,360
Speaker 2: a different location where no question, this is a sexually

1038
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:56,040
Speaker 2: motivated crime. I don't know if they found any you know,

1039
00:57:56,080 --> 00:58:00,240
Speaker 2: physical evidence of sexual assault, but obviously sexually motivated crime,

1040
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:04,680
Speaker 2: strangles her and then dumps her near where he abducted

1041
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:08,440
Speaker 2: her from. He's comfortable moving these victims around in his vehicle.

1042
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:13,520
Speaker 1: Okay, now we're at victim number seven. This is three

1043
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:17,040
Speaker 1: years later, so this is nineteen eighty. The victim is

1044
00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:19,680
Speaker 1: a nineteen year old sex worker. Her name is Valerie

1045
00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 1: Ann Street. She is found murdered in New Jersey, and

1046
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:28,240
Speaker 1: in fact, at the very same quality inn where Mary

1047
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 1: Anne was murdered. Okay, except Valerie is in one of

1048
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:35,439
Speaker 1: the rooms and she's hiden under a bed in one

1049
00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:38,600
Speaker 1: of the rooms inside, versus Mary Anne, who was in

1050
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:42,480
Speaker 1: the parking lot. She had been handcuffed, strangled with some

1051
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 1: type of literature. She was covered in bite and knife

1052
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:50,960
Speaker 1: marks and had similar adhesive marks around her mouth.

1053
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:54,800
Speaker 2: So, just because of her victimology being a sex worker,

1054
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:59,160
Speaker 2: you know, one of the questions about this motel is

1055
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:02,000
Speaker 2: this a motel that was used by sex workers to

1056
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:06,280
Speaker 2: take their customers too. Do they have agreements with the

1057
00:59:06,360 --> 00:59:10,200
Speaker 2: lobby clerk, you know, taking money, you know, over the

1058
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:13,600
Speaker 2: counter to take a customer into the room. And of course,

1059
00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 2: do we have witnesses seeing Valerie with a man entering

1060
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:18,880
Speaker 2: the motel, et cetera. You know, there's there's obviously a

1061
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:24,640
Speaker 2: lot of investigative questions about Valerie's body being found inside

1062
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:28,480
Speaker 2: the motel room. It's interesting that she's hidden under the bed,

1063
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:33,560
Speaker 2: you know, is this just to further delay discovery of

1064
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:38,440
Speaker 2: the body, to allow the offender to get distance away

1065
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:42,200
Speaker 2: from the location. The use of handcuffs, this is another

1066
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:44,880
Speaker 2: type of restraint, you know, it's just like binding. He's

1067
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:47,120
Speaker 2: just trying to keep her under control. It may have

1068
00:59:47,160 --> 00:59:50,560
Speaker 2: significance to the offender, it may not, however, her body

1069
00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:56,080
Speaker 2: being covered in bite marks and knife wounds, not stab wounds,

1070
00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:59,919
Speaker 2: but in essence, a knife has been used to poke

1071
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:03,440
Speaker 2: on the victim's body. Is that the way you're reading that?

1072
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 1: Yeah? I think the way that I was reading that

1073
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:12,120
Speaker 1: was that it was torture. That's the insinuation he was

1074
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:13,040
Speaker 1: torturing her.

1075
01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 2: Well, and this is where there has to be an expert,

1076
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:19,960
Speaker 2: and this isn't necessarily a pathologist, but this is a

1077
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:25,160
Speaker 2: behavioral expert to assess these wounds. You rely on the

1078
01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:29,480
Speaker 2: pathologist's findings, But is it torture? If it is, then

1079
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:31,840
Speaker 2: you're dealing with a sexual satis. This guy is definitely

1080
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:37,640
Speaker 2: amping up and he is getting sexual gratification from the

1081
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 2: torture aspect of a living victim. You know, and the

1082
01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:46,560
Speaker 2: valeries last moments were horrific. But there is a behavioral

1083
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:51,960
Speaker 2: aspect called pickeerism that some offenders do, and they will

1084
01:00:52,400 --> 01:00:56,240
Speaker 2: in some instances cover the victim's body with all sorts

1085
01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:59,200
Speaker 2: of very superficial let's say, little stab wounds, whether it

1086
01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:02,760
Speaker 2: be from a knife or a screwdriver, And the behavioralists

1087
01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:06,320
Speaker 2: will say this is in some ways, this is penile substitution.

1088
01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:10,680
Speaker 2: He's penetrating into the victim's body over and over again

1089
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:15,160
Speaker 2: with this weapon. It is it is a paraphilia and

1090
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:20,120
Speaker 2: this is definitely a fantasy motivated offender. He's evolving, There's

1091
01:01:20,160 --> 01:01:25,080
Speaker 2: no question about that. Now. It's just you know, with Valerie.

1092
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:28,360
Speaker 2: You know, where was Valerie working as a sex worker?

1093
01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:30,680
Speaker 2: Was she on a stroll area? Is he going into

1094
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:33,760
Speaker 2: that stroll area? I will tell you if she's in

1095
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:36,520
Speaker 2: a stroll area, that tells me that he's likely a

1096
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:40,640
Speaker 2: customer of sex workers and he's comfortable in that culture.

1097
01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:44,600
Speaker 2: But let's say she's more of the escort service type

1098
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:47,880
Speaker 2: and she drives or is dropped off at this this

1099
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:50,480
Speaker 2: motel to meet up with a customer, you know, so

1100
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:54,080
Speaker 2: I need to know more in terms of Valerie's last

1101
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:56,880
Speaker 2: you know, where she was last seen. And she also

1102
01:01:57,000 --> 01:02:02,480
Speaker 2: has adhesive. He's a residue around her mouth, you know.

1103
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:06,640
Speaker 2: And again that's that gig he you know, it's something

1104
01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:10,680
Speaker 2: that he is trying to prevent her from being able

1105
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:14,000
Speaker 2: to cry out, you know. And is that while he's

1106
01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:17,680
Speaker 2: torturing her, is that part of maybe an abduction? You know?

1107
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:21,080
Speaker 2: Is it possible that he could have abducted her from

1108
01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:25,320
Speaker 2: some location and she is not voluntarily going into this

1109
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:29,000
Speaker 2: motel he has to carry her in or drag her in.

1110
01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:30,600
Speaker 2: Is there a way that he could have done that

1111
01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:32,960
Speaker 2: where people wouldn't have seen him do that, like a

1112
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:36,400
Speaker 2: back door for example, into the you know, the hallway.

1113
01:02:36,680 --> 01:02:39,000
Speaker 1: Well, police are figuring out some things, and this is

1114
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:42,120
Speaker 1: what we find out about Valerie. Valerie checked into the

1115
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:45,680
Speaker 1: room one three two at this quality In under an

1116
01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 1: assumed name. She checked in with the client with a

1117
01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:52,760
Speaker 1: man going there willingly. They could not identify the man.

1118
01:02:53,080 --> 01:02:55,920
Speaker 1: I would assume that this quality In had been used knowingly,

1119
01:02:56,200 --> 01:02:58,840
Speaker 1: you know, as a place where sex workers would take clients,

1120
01:02:59,120 --> 01:03:02,160
Speaker 1: So they think that she was gagged with that adhesive tape.

1121
01:03:02,600 --> 01:03:04,880
Speaker 1: And I had said this to you before, numerous minor

1122
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:08,840
Speaker 1: knife incisions on her breast. We don't know a lot about,

1123
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:11,920
Speaker 1: you know, where they might have met, but it sounds

1124
01:03:11,960 --> 01:03:14,560
Speaker 1: like this was a this is where the crime happened,

1125
01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:16,520
Speaker 1: and this was where she was left.

1126
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:19,520
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, no, for sure, for sure, this is a

1127
01:03:19,560 --> 01:03:24,960
Speaker 2: misstep by the offender. If he is seen with his victim,

1128
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:27,959
Speaker 2: you know, that's high risk for him to go in there.

1129
01:03:28,280 --> 01:03:31,200
Speaker 2: Why is he willing to put himself in that high

1130
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:35,920
Speaker 2: risk scenario? And I go back to I think he

1131
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:41,320
Speaker 2: has comfort with this motel. You know, he wasn't ever identified,

1132
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:44,520
Speaker 2: but has he been there before as a customer, maybe

1133
01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:49,120
Speaker 2: with other sex workers. He knows that workers at this

1134
01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:52,200
Speaker 2: motel are going to keep their mouths shut because this

1135
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:55,760
Speaker 2: is a routine thing. They're probably making a decent amount

1136
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:58,640
Speaker 2: of money on the side under the table, you know,

1137
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:03,200
Speaker 2: for the sex workers to bring their customers into this motel.

1138
01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:07,480
Speaker 1: We are going to have to wrap up the first

1139
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:13,000
Speaker 1: part of this two parter here we have more victims

1140
01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:18,160
Speaker 1: and we have a couple of new locations moving forward.

1141
01:04:18,240 --> 01:04:19,840
Speaker 1: I know you're going to be thinking about this case

1142
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 1: for the whole week. You get to think about it.

1143
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:24,320
Speaker 1: You're doing this is I mean, I think probably the

1144
01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:28,040
Speaker 1: deepest profile we've ever talked about, where you're really trying

1145
01:04:28,040 --> 01:04:30,680
Speaker 1: to home in on this and I'll tell you that

1146
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:33,840
Speaker 1: we will have a solution to this, which is good.

1147
01:04:33,880 --> 01:04:37,160
Speaker 2: Because if this was an unsolved series, I'm saying, sick

1148
01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:40,960
Speaker 2: me on it. It's like, Okay, I want to roll

1149
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:42,800
Speaker 2: up my sleeves and go after this guy.

1150
01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:46,240
Speaker 1: Well, I think you'll be interested in finding out what

1151
01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:49,240
Speaker 1: ends up happening with this case, but you'll have to

1152
01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:50,080
Speaker 1: find out in a week.

1153
01:04:51,040 --> 01:04:55,480
Speaker 2: All right, But I understand, so I anxiously await the

1154
01:04:55,520 --> 01:04:56,920
Speaker 2: next case on this series.

1155
01:04:57,440 --> 01:04:58,520
Speaker 1: Okay, I'll see in a week.

1156
01:04:58,680 --> 01:04:59,320
Speaker 2: Sounds good, Kate.

1157
01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:06,040
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production.

1158
01:05:06,040 --> 01:05:09,240
Speaker 2: For our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot

1159
01:05:09,240 --> 01:05:11,440
Speaker 2: com slash Buried Bones sources.

1160
01:05:11,640 --> 01:05:14,040
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emrosi.

1161
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:17,280
Speaker 2: Research by Alison Trumble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1162
01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:19,800
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1163
01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:22,360
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1164
01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:24,640
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1165
01:05:24,920 --> 01:05:29,040
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Danielle Kramer.

1166
01:05:29,320 --> 01:05:32,720
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1167
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:33,960
Speaker 1: buried Bones pod.

1168
01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:36,960
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1169
01:05:37,000 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1170
01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:41,080
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now.

1171
01:05:41,120 --> 01:05:45,400
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's

1172
01:05:45,400 --> 01:05:47,479
Speaker 1: cold cases, is also available now.

1173
01:05:47,800 --> 01:05:51,520
Speaker 2: Listen to Baried Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1174
01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:53,520
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts