1 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:08,560 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. This is 2 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:11,399 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb. Today is Saturday, so we have an older 3 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:13,360 Speaker 1: episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind to share with 4 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 1: you here. This one was originally published eight thirteen, twenty 5 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:19,919 Speaker 1: twenty four. It is Blood Squirting from the Lizard's Eye, 6 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: Part one. 7 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 8 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 9 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. 10 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 3: And I am Joe McCormick. And today on Stuff to 11 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 3: Blow Your Mind, we are going to be talking about 12 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:48,919 Speaker 3: an animal, about the horned lizard or frenosoma, a genus 13 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,239 Speaker 3: of lizard native to North America, also known as horned 14 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 3: toads or horny toads. From what I've been reading, I 15 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 3: think the people in the biological sciences prefer the more 16 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 3: accurate lizard, applely because they are certainly not toads, though 17 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 3: there are reasons for calling them toads, mainly that they 18 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 3: look like toads. 19 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: Now, we're going to probably try and stick to horned lizard. 20 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: I'm probably going to say horned lizard because I like 21 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: using the more antiquated term and it sounds more demonic. 22 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: But we also might say, horny toad, horned toad, horn toad, 23 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:22,119 Speaker 1: and so forth. 24 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 3: Throughout the episode, Horned Lizard makes me think learned lizard. 25 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 3: You know, doesn't it suggest a kind of wisdom? 26 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, sometimes lizards can appear quite wise, so I 27 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: buy that. 28 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 3: And in fact, you might even think about some of 29 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 3: the species of horned lizards as especially wise or discerning 30 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 3: among the reptile kind, because they, as we get into 31 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 3: later in this episode, they have some anti predator strategies 32 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 3: that really require snap judgment calls about say what type 33 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 3: of predator you're dealing with? 34 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: That's right? And I don't know if we'll get into 35 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: it in this episode or the next, but among the Navajo, 36 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: among the DNA people, they're sometimes called grandfather, so I 37 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: think there is often that vibe of maybe sort of 38 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: wisdom and power to them. 39 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 3: Though I have to admit I did come to this 40 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 3: topic through more base and if you know, us predictable routes. 41 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 3: So my window into talking about horned lizards was the 42 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:20,239 Speaker 3: fact that for sci fi horror nerds like us, it's 43 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:22,239 Speaker 3: alien summer. Would you agree, Rob. 44 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, it's been an alien summer for me. We've 45 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: been chatting about alien movies and the upcoming alien movie. 46 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 1: So yeah, there's a lot of excitement in the air. 47 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a new alien movie coming out in theaters 48 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,519 Speaker 3: later this week, Alien Romulus. Of course, there's no guarantee 49 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 3: ahead of time it's going to be good. I don't 50 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 3: think they've even released the critics embargo yet. But I'm 51 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 3: just recklessly letting myself get excited regardless tempering expectations is 52 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 3: for the week. 53 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 1: That's right, Say yes to Xenomorph and then figure the 54 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 1: rest out later. 55 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 3: You know, if I'm disappointed, I'm disappointed, It'll be okay. 56 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 3: So we've had Aliens on the brain for a few 57 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 3: months here, and we've covered a couple of Aliens copycat 58 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:03,519 Speaker 3: movies on Weird House Cinema. We'll probably do at least 59 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 3: one more, I think that's right. 60 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: We also had a seven part Monster Fact series on 61 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: the various creatures and organisms of the alien universe, with 62 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: part seven publishing this week. 63 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 3: Mm hmm. But so we've got all this excitement running 64 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 3: through us, and I was looking to find some real 65 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:21,959 Speaker 3: world biology to cover that had parallels an alien. We've 66 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 3: already done a lot of topics along these lines in 67 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 3: the past, and the idea of the xenomorph's weaponized blood 68 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 3: took hold. So in the Alien movies if you haven't 69 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 3: seen them, the creature in these movies has extremely potent 70 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 3: acid for blood, which appears to serve as a defense strategy. 71 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 3: So if you cause injury to one of the Xenomorphs, 72 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 3: you are likely to get some of its blood on 73 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 3: yourself or on your critical infrastructure, such as the inside 74 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 3: of your spacecraft hull, and that blood will burn through 75 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 3: bodies and space ships alike. So, as observed by the 76 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 3: characters in the first movie, there's real danger in injuring 77 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 3: the creature. How do you fight it? 78 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: That's right. It's also worth pointing out that there is 79 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: at least some acid fluid as projectile in the xenomorph world. 80 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: The most, I would say, I guess the key example 81 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: would be in nineteen seventy nine's Alien the first film, 82 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: as we see that emergent face hugger seem to use 83 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: acidic secretions to burn through Caine's helmet in order to 84 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 1: access his face. Now, naturally, given that certain wounds, especially 85 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: lethal wounds to a Xenomorph, could result in a jet 86 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: of acidic blood, we could easily classify that as a 87 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: form of defensive spray, and then in Alien three and 88 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: Alien Resurrection, the third and fourth movies in the franchise, 89 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 1: we actually see xenomorphs using an offensive acid spray attack, 90 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 1: And of course this has also been used to various 91 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 1: effects in Alien video games for ranged enemies, as well 92 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: as in Alien comic books and so forth. Also worth 93 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: pointing out that, given our current Mortal Kombat discussions on 94 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: Weird House Cinema, the acid spit is one of the 95 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: signature moves of the green clad Ninja reptile. 96 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 3: Is it really a spit because the animation looks to 97 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 3: me more like projectile vomit. 98 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: I think it depends. At least in the first game. 99 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: He was in Mortal Kombat too, he would definitely spit. 100 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,720 Speaker 1: It was like a kind of a sound over and 101 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: over again, and I think it got a little more 102 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 1: vomity later on. 103 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 3: Okay, Now, of course, it's fairly common in the natural 104 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 3: world to find animals that produce some kind of toxic 105 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 3: defensive fluid that they use to protect themselves against predators 106 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 3: or attack prey. But what seemed less common, though perhaps 107 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 3: more common than you would think, was that the defensive 108 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 3: fluid in question was actually the animal's own blood. 109 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 1: That's right, because a part of the logic here, of course, 110 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: is we tend to think vampire like when we think 111 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: about an organism's blood. Right, it's part of the prize, 112 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 1: it's part of the predator's claim. So broadly speaking, it would, 113 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: on the surface anyway, seem illogical to think that a 114 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: predator could be harmed by blood of its prey. 115 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 3: But here is where the horned lizard comes in. If 116 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 3: you know one thing about the horned lizard, it is 117 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 3: probably that these various species of lizards have a defensive 118 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 3: adaptation of squirting blood out of their eyes. 119 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: That's right. They're kind of Internet famous for this, a 120 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: lot of clips, a lot of a lot of animations 121 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: and videos. I should also add that if you know 122 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: one thing, you should probably know two things. Also, that 123 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: there to some extent horned up, right, because right, I 124 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 1: call them horned lizards, right. 125 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 3: But while lots of animals are spiky or horned in 126 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 3: some way, I would say that the blood squirting out 127 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 3: of the eyes is such a shocking behavior, such a 128 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 3: bizarre and seemingly rare adaptation, that you would almost have 129 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,359 Speaker 3: to wonder if it's not real, Like, is that something 130 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 3: people just made up or does that really happen? And 131 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 3: according to the author of a book that I'm going 132 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 3: to cite in this episode, reports of it have sometimes 133 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 3: in the past been dismissed as tall tales, but they're 134 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 3: not tall tales. The Horned Blizzard's weaponized blood is absolutely real, 135 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 3: and it is the subject of some interesting scientific investigation. 136 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: So this is going to be really fun to get 137 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: into now. When we were doing our pre research, though, Joe, 138 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: you brought up a resource that we've looked to in 139 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: the past, and that's the California herbs dot com website 140 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: where they have a wonderful I mean it's not just 141 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: about this, but they have a huge listing of various 142 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: herp appearances in various films, many of which are very 143 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: much in the domain of weird house cinema meaning reptiles, yes, yeah, yeah, 144 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: for herpetologist cinema files. And they have a list there 145 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 1: that you shared with me of horned lozerds in movies, 146 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: and there are a few that I was familiar with, 147 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: you know, because they're pretty popular films. I think what 148 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: outlot Josie Wales is on there. 149 00:07:54,720 --> 00:08:00,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, but they they are apparently a number of you know, 150 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 3: westerns I guess where there are horned lizards, which makes 151 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 3: sense because you know, you find a lot of these 152 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 3: several of these species are very common in the American Southwest. 153 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: But also Jodroowski's Holy Mountain is included there, his film 154 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: from nineteen seventy three that does have a very memorable 155 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: hert scene, though it may contain shots of actual hurts 156 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: being exploded with fireworks, so you know, go into that 157 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: one with a certain amount of caution. But it's I mean, 158 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: it's Holy Mountains, so I'd advise a great deal of 159 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: content consideration before you watch it. Anyway, It's kind of 160 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: a titan of surreal cinema and an important film when 161 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: you're looking at weird psychotronic pictures and you know, Mexican 162 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: cinema certainly cinema of the nineteen seventies. But it is 163 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: not for everyone. 164 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's not movie Night with the grandparents. 165 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I believe the scene in question. It's been a 166 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: long time since I've seen it, and I have only 167 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:52,800 Speaker 1: seen it like used to. The only way you could 168 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: watch it would be like a rip of a Japanese 169 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,719 Speaker 1: laser disc, and they're much better sources for it available now, 170 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: But there is an extended scene where the conquest of 171 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 1: Mexico is recreated with frogs and toads and lizards standing 172 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: in for the various actors and sides in this conflict. 173 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 3: I did not remember that detail. There's a lot I've 174 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 3: forgotten about Holy Mountain. 175 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 1: So I would say cameo appearance by the horned lizard. Now, 176 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: it's worth noting at the top here that we're not 177 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 1: dealing with a single species when we're discussing horned lizards, 178 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: but rather an entire genus of North American lizards, and 179 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 1: that's Phinosoma, including some twenty one species which range as 180 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:36,319 Speaker 1: far north as parts of Canada and on the southern 181 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: end range all the way through Mexico and into Guatemala. 182 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: And of these again, somewhere around twenty one species, at 183 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: least eight species squirt blood from the eye region. So 184 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: just an example of range here, there's the greater short 185 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: horned lizard or Hernandez is short horned lizard, and it 186 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: can be found as far north as southern Saskatchewan and 187 00:09:56,640 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: Alberta and south into the Texas Panhandle in central Mexico. 188 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: And this is one of the species of bloodshooters. 189 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. But as you said, Rob, the various 190 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 3: species of horned lizards can be found all over the 191 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 3: part of North America, from down in southern Mexico all 192 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 3: the way up to the southern part of Canada. And 193 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 3: you can look up maps that show you sort of 194 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 3: different estimated ranges of the different species. But yeah, you'll 195 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 3: find them all throughout the arid and semi arid regions 196 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 3: of the North American West. Here, I think it would 197 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 3: be a good place to introduce one of my major 198 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:35,319 Speaker 3: sources for this episode, which is a book called Introduction 199 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 3: to Horned Lizards of North America by Wade C. Sherbrook. 200 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,839 Speaker 3: This was published by University of California Press in two 201 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 3: thousand and three, and the author, Wade Sherbrooke, was director 202 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,599 Speaker 3: of the Southwestern Research Station of the American Museum of 203 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:56,319 Speaker 3: Natural History, and so one of the questions Sherbrooke addresses 204 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 3: in the introduction of this book is why are horned 205 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 3: lizards commonly referred to as toads, horned toads, horny toads. Well, 206 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 3: they really do kind of look like toads. They tend 207 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 3: to have a wide body when viewed from above, especially 208 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 3: in certain defensive postures where they sort of flatten and 209 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 3: widen their bodies out to create to sort of turn 210 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 3: their backs into a shield. They tend to for lizards 211 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 3: have a short, blunt snout which can resemble a toad's head, 212 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 3: and they also have an awkward walking gait. They tend 213 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:33,559 Speaker 3: to have a camouflaged appearance which helps them blend into 214 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 3: their often sandy or gravelly surroundings, and this can resemble 215 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 3: the model color patterns and bumpy texture you would see 216 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 3: on the backs of some toads, so in lots of 217 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 3: different ways they look like toads, and this led to 218 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 3: the name of their genus. Frinosoma means toad body, phrenoss 219 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 3: toad and soma of course means body, toad body, total 220 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,319 Speaker 3: toad body to add to the toad comparisons to make 221 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 3: them even more of a toad body. Can observe how 222 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 3: they eat. Now, the different species of horned lizards have 223 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 3: some different different diets. Some are more sort of taking 224 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 3: what they can get than others, but some are quite 225 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 3: specialized to eating insects and specifically ants, specifically even more 226 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 3: harvester ants. And if you watch the horned lizards eat 227 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:26,199 Speaker 3: harvester ants. When they specialize in this food source, they 228 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 3: have a kind of a sticky, flicking tongue action, much 229 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,839 Speaker 3: like we associate with toads and frogs. I was reading 230 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 3: in one part of the Sherbrook book about how exactly 231 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 3: it is that these horned lizards can eat these incredibly 232 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 3: venomous ants, and apparently they have a strategy of like 233 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 3: flicking them into the mouth, and then as they swallow 234 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 3: the ant, the ant becomes covered in this layer of 235 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 3: mucus that comes out of glands in the lizard's throat, 236 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 3: and this coating of mucus surrounds the ant as the 237 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 3: ant is is digested and essentially disables it from biting 238 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 3: or stinging the lizard from the inside until it is 239 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 3: well dead and able to be digested. And these lizards 240 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 3: have to eat a lot of these ants because ants 241 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:17,319 Speaker 3: are not super nutritious like they've got There's not a 242 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 3: lot of meat on that bone. It's mostly bone. 243 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: That's right. Like For instance, one of the other big 244 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 1: ant eaters out there is of course the mammalian ant eater, 245 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 1: and they are known to eat tons of ants and termites. 246 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: I've seen estimates of like thirty thousand ants and termites 247 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,760 Speaker 1: a day, But even that is still a low calorie diet, 248 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: and it's one of the reasons that we think that 249 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: ant eaters have one of the lowest mammalian body temperatures. 250 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 1: But in terms of the the what we're dealing with here, 251 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: the horned lizards consumption of ants, I found an interesting 252 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: article that answers the question, well, how do they eat 253 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 1: them safely? This was from two thousand and eight published 254 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 1: in the journal jazz A by Sherbrooke and Schwink, And 255 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: the answer is in the title Horned lizards Incapacity Dangerous 256 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: ant prey with mucus. And we've already touched on the 257 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: main aspect of this, but they provide one more little 258 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 1: detail that I really like. They write, quote, we show 259 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: that they're derived feeding kind of mattics that are associated 260 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: with unique mucus secreting hyrngel papilia that apparently serve to 261 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: immobilize and incapacitate dangerous ants as they are swallowed by 262 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: compacting them and binding them in mucus trans And then 263 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: they later add the detail ants extracted from fresh killed 264 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 1: horned lizard's stomachs are curled ventrally into balls and bound 265 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: in mucus. 266 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 3: Take an ant as you're swallowing it, coat it with slime, 267 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 3: and wadd it up into a ball so that you 268 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 3: can digest it without it getting into trouble inside your 269 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 3: digestive tract. That's right, Roll them up, all right, So 270 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 3: that is horned lizards as predators. But I wanted to 271 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 3: focus for the majority of today's episode on horned lizards 272 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 3: as prey because it is, of course in their role 273 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 3: as prey and in their anti predator defense strategies that 274 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 3: we see the jets of blood emerge from the eyes. 275 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 3: So here I want to go back to that book 276 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 3: I mentioned by Wade Sherbrook. He has an excellent section 277 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 3: in this book called Enemies and Defense, which sort of 278 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 3: covers a nearly comprehensive list of different sort of predator 279 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 3: prey relationships between horned lizard species and the predators that 280 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 3: target them, and the strategies they have for resisting these predators. So, 281 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 3: as we alluded to earlier, horned lizards are of course 282 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 3: covered in spikes and scales. This is a pretty sophisticated 283 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,440 Speaker 3: armor defense. If you've never seen what a horned lizard 284 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 3: looks like by the way, you should look one up. 285 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 3: I mean, first of all, they are beautiful, but this 286 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 3: will give you a better idea of what we're talking 287 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 3: about as we continually reference the armour moving on. They 288 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 3: tend to have spikes and scales along different parts of 289 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 3: their bodies, such as sort of spiky flank protrusions running 290 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 3: down the lateral sides of the body, but then also 291 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 3: sometimes some kind of bumpy or tough coverings on the back, 292 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 3: and then especially bony spike protrusions around the crown of 293 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 3: the head. So some of the spiky looking things, usually 294 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 3: the smaller ones are just more modified scales, but the 295 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 3: spikes around the head are actually like hard, sharp bony 296 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 3: spikes now covered in spikes and scales. As they are, 297 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 3: you might not think that a horned lizard would look 298 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 3: very appetizing, but you know, out here in the arid 299 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 3: and semi arid regions of the American West, many predators 300 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 3: will take whatever they can get, and so horned lizards 301 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 3: are indeed a prey animal to many species of predators. 302 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 3: Juveniles are the most vulnerable to predation. They're smaller and 303 00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 3: they have less developed armor, so many are eaten between 304 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 3: the time they hatch from their eggs and the first hibernation. 305 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 3: But Sherbrooke in this chapter gets into a list of 306 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 3: different predators, and the first one I want to look 307 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 3: at is his section on the long nosed leopard lizard 308 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 3: or the Gambelia whizly zennii. These are worth looking up 309 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 3: a picture of as well, because while they're not very 310 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:23,919 Speaker 3: interesting in terms of shape, they're just sort of like 311 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 3: larger looking predatory lizards. They do have a truly leopard 312 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 3: looking coloration pattern. 313 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, they're quite quite fetching in their own right. 314 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 3: So these lizards will frequently attack and eat horned lizards, 315 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 3: especially juveniles, and the general strategy here is not super complicated. 316 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 3: It is to bite them near the head and then 317 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:48,199 Speaker 3: swallow them whole head first. You know, this is just 318 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 3: me reasoning from the pictures, but the sort of backwards 319 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 3: pointing orientation of the head spikes, because they sort of 320 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 3: extend backward from the head like a crown, it makes 321 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 3: it seem like it would probably be easier to swallow 322 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 3: a horned lizard head first rather than tail first, Like 323 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 3: if you went backwards, I would think the spikes would 324 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 3: would be more likely to catch like hooks in the 325 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 3: lining of the throat and the digestive system. But it 326 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 3: also seems like eating one of these things head first 327 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 3: would be a very no going back scenario. You know, 328 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 3: once you start eating a big one, you're committed. 329 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you can't put it in reverse. 330 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,480 Speaker 3: Sherbrook says in the book about defensive strategies that when 331 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:32,119 Speaker 3: attacked by a leopard lizard a horned lizard, and again, 332 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 3: defensive strategy is very somewhat by species, so we'll be 333 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 3: speaking in some generalities here, but the horned lizard will 334 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:43,439 Speaker 3: often try to defend itself by flattening out its back 335 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,360 Speaker 3: into a wide shield shape so it wants to look 336 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 3: as wide as possible, and then tilting and orienting its 337 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:55,159 Speaker 3: armored shield back toward the predator. And again, adults with 338 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 3: well developed armor are much less vulnerable to leopard lizards. 339 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 3: The next category is birds. A number of different birds 340 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,920 Speaker 3: prey on horned lizards. Sherbroke mentions hawks such as the 341 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 3: red shouldered hawk or buteolineatis, but also smaller birds like 342 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 3: the prairie falcon, the American kestrel, and the loggerhead shrike. 343 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 3: Predatory birds with powerful talons and beaks have an advantage 344 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 3: when preying on these lizards because they have the ability 345 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 3: to tear the lizard apart and eat it piece by piece, 346 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 3: making it a somewhat easier proposition to consume that this 347 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 3: spiky animal as opposed to an armored adult that needs 348 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 3: to be swallowed whole. However, it does still come with risks. 349 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 3: Sherbrooke mentions one case of a red shouldered hawk that 350 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 3: was found dead after having eaten a couple of Texas 351 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 3: horned lizards. Apparently one of the horns had pierced through 352 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 3: the hawk's throat from the inside. Oh, and I can't 353 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 3: help but apply like a human level of grossed out 354 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 3: to this. Like I know it's just part of the 355 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 3: you know, their way of making a living, but I 356 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 3: cannot imagine eating something this spiky. 357 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: And it's like a like a like a wheat then, 358 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: except even worse right. 359 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, Oh, it's like you know, you ever think when 360 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 3: you're like eating a tortilla chip and you don't chew 361 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 3: it upright and you get a shard caught in your throat. Yeah, Okay. 362 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 3: Another bird that preys on these animals is the greater 363 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 3: road runner or Geocossics californian Us. The Greater Roadrunner has 364 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 3: an interesting strategy where it grabs the horned lizard by 365 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 3: a leg or by the tail with its beak, and 366 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 3: then it whips them up in the air and slams 367 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 3: them back down against the ground repeatedly, so it is 368 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 3: beating the lizard against the earth, using centrifugal force to 369 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 3: smash it dead. Basically, it bashes it and bashes it 370 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:53,919 Speaker 3: until it is dead and busted up, and this allows 371 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 3: the roadrunner to take its time orienting the lizard so 372 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 3: it can be swallowed whole head first by attached to 373 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 3: a picture for you of the Greater Roadrunner trying to 374 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,199 Speaker 3: get this whole lizard into its mouth head first that 375 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 3: I don't know how this is going to happen. This 376 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 3: is just a photo from the book. It's not animated, 377 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:12,439 Speaker 3: but I believe in you. 378 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, roadrunners are such interesting, weird 379 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 1: creatures in their own ride. I don't feel like the 380 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: cartoons properly prepared. As for the reality, I've only seen 381 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: I've only seen them in the wild, I think one 382 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 1: or two times while I'm in the Arizona. But it's 383 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: like it's like seeing like the ghost of a dinosaur 384 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:31,640 Speaker 1: run by. It's pretty neat. 385 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah yeah. And of course, in the case of 386 00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 3: the roadrunner, swallowing it headfirst once again keeps the horns 387 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,640 Speaker 3: pointed away from the bird's vital organs. It's going down 388 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 3: the digestive tract. 389 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 1: Clever girl. 390 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, okay, So another bird predator chiwawin ravens or 391 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:53,280 Speaker 3: corvas crypto. Lucas Sherbrook says that these birds, they've got 392 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 3: an interesting difference here. They bring dead horned lizards to 393 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:01,919 Speaker 3: their nests to feed their young, but the ravens render 394 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 3: them safe by not feeding them to their young hole, 395 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 3: but instead ripping them open and only feeding the soft 396 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,120 Speaker 3: inerds to the hatchlings, so only guts for the children, 397 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 3: and then the carcass with the hard parts is discarded. 398 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: All right, Well, that's not surprised. Leave it to the 399 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: ravens to intelligently dissect before feeding. 400 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 3: To the end, they're like a tourist at a beach 401 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,880 Speaker 3: restaurant picking the meat out of a crab. They're getting 402 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 3: all the juicy bits and not swallowing the hard parts. 403 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 3: Of course, snakes are a major predator of these lizards. 404 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 3: Various species of snakes prey on them, killing them either 405 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 3: with venom or with constriction, and then in all cases 406 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:47,399 Speaker 3: swallowing them whole. Snakes, like birds, do incur some risk 407 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 3: by attempting to swallow a horned lizard. Sometimes the horns 408 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 3: rip them open from the inside, and a crucial factor 409 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 3: seems to be just the relative sizes of the snake 410 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 3: in the lizard. The snake, it's hung, but it can't 411 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 3: get too greedy. It has to know its limits. And 412 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 3: so I guess there are cases where a snake might 413 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 3: be sort of driven near starvation and it's pushing the 414 00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 3: boundaries of like, is this thing so big it's going 415 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:16,680 Speaker 3: to kill me to eat it? I'm gonna roll the dice. Now, 416 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,199 Speaker 3: that's not all the potential predators of horned lizards, but 417 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 3: I'm going to come back to one more major category 418 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 3: in a minute when we get to the blood squirting. 419 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 3: So there's another interesting framework that Sherbrook introduces in this 420 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 3: chapter where he's talking about the different levels of defense 421 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 3: that a prey animal can deploy when trying to survive 422 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 3: against predators, and the three layers of defense he talks 423 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 3: about are, first of all, avoid being seen second, avoid 424 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 3: being caught, and third be difficult to eat or appear 425 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 3: dangerous to the predator. And you could sort of paraphrase 426 00:23:55,160 --> 00:24:00,959 Speaker 3: these as one, hide, two run in three fight. Horned 427 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 3: lizards are not very good at number two. They're not 428 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 3: very good at running away. There are some exceptions, such 429 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,959 Speaker 3: as when facing off against certain snakes venomous snakes like 430 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 3: the diamondback rattle snake. Sometimes in facing off against one 431 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:20,679 Speaker 3: of those, the lizard will just run away, But in 432 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 3: most cases it's not going to be great at trying 433 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 3: to outrun predators. They've got kind of short limbs and 434 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 3: awkward movements. So mostly horned lizards excel at number one 435 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 3: and number three avoiding being seen in the first place. 436 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 3: And then if they really if they're cornered and they're 437 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:42,679 Speaker 3: caught and they can't hide anymore, they resist being eaten 438 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:47,719 Speaker 3: somehow by a combination of morphological and behavioral defenses. So 439 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 3: we'll look at number one first, the hiding part. Horned 440 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:56,880 Speaker 3: lizards are masters of camouflage, and Sherbrooke has an interesting 441 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 3: side note about how we often don't appreci cate how 442 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 3: effective a wild animal's camouflage actually is because most people, 443 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 3: you know, if you're not like living out in the wilderness, 444 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 3: most of the time you're going to see any of 445 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 3: these wild animals, it's in some form of media that 446 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 3: is designed to help you see the animals, such as 447 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 3: like a picture in a book or footage in a documentary, 448 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 3: where the whole point is that you're supposed to be 449 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 3: able to see it. And so this kind of we 450 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 3: kind of underappreciate how effective natural camouflage strategies are because 451 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 3: if we were just walking around in the environment, we 452 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 3: likely might go right by animals of this type and 453 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 3: never see them, so we wouldn't even know that we'd 454 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 3: miss them. 455 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: That's a great point. Yeah, And so. 456 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 3: Horned lizards are very good at hiding. They hide themselves 457 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 3: with a couple of strategies. They hide by disrupting predator 458 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 3: search routines for both shape and color, so their coloration 459 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 3: tends to mimic the patterns of gravelly, sandy or grassy 460 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 3: grounds where they live, and the pigment in their skin 461 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,640 Speaker 3: tends to match the color of the local soil or 462 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 3: whatever the background is. So, for example, horned lizards that 463 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 3: live in areas with redder soil will be redder in 464 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 3: color and so forth. Also, in the domain of color, 465 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 3: they have patterns of what is called disruptive coloration. This 466 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 3: is found in many animals where varied color patterns make 467 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 3: it harder to pick out the outline of an object 468 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,640 Speaker 3: against the background. This is also one of the main 469 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:37,719 Speaker 3: principles behind human tactical camouflage. Some of their hiding strategies 470 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 3: are more obvious, like in some cases, if there is 471 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 3: a predator around, they might increase their hiddenness by ducking 472 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 3: underneath something so they can run under a shrub or 473 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 3: a rock or some of the ground cover. But another 474 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,440 Speaker 3: thing they do often is if a predator is nearby, 475 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 3: they can flatten their bodies against the ground, and this 476 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 3: especially helps protect against, say, the visual detection by birds, 477 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 3: because this flat prevents them from casting a shadow, which 478 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,480 Speaker 3: if they did cast a shadow, would reveal their outline. 479 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 3: So if you can't see the outline of the creature, 480 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:15,880 Speaker 3: it disrupts the predator's shape recognition. And the horned lizard's 481 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,959 Speaker 3: lateral body spikes also help disrupt shape recognition by interfering 482 00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,199 Speaker 3: with the casting of a shadow. Now, in order for 483 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 3: a lot of these hiding strategies to be effective, the 484 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,880 Speaker 3: horned lizard needs to remain motionless, which it does much 485 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 3: of the time. It pays to be sedentary if you're 486 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 3: one of these buddies, and it also helps that you know, 487 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 3: as ectotherms, they need to spend a lot of time 488 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 3: absorbing sun anyway, because their body temperature is dependent on 489 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 3: the surrounding environment, they don't generate their own body heat 490 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 3: through metabolism. Now, one defensive strategy that Sherbrook talks about, 491 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 3: which in a kind of embarrassing way ping done some 492 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 3: like video game playing styles I'm familiar with, is that 493 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 3: if startled, the horned lizard will often run as fast 494 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,679 Speaker 3: as it can a short distance and then suddenly stop 495 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 3: and freeze. Why would it do that? That doesn't seem 496 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 3: to make a lot of sense, but it does actually 497 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 3: if you read it explained. So the lizard usually can't 498 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 3: run very fast very far, but the main purpose of 499 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 3: it seems to be too quickly re enter stealth mode, 500 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 3: so you run a short distance and then freeze in 501 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 3: order to once again blend into the surroundings and hopefully 502 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,919 Speaker 3: disappear from the predator's vision. This makes me think of 503 00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 3: various I don't know, like Batman, video games and stuff. 504 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 3: Where the bad guys see you and this like, oh oh, 505 00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 3: I need to run to the opposite side of the 506 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 3: room and hide, and then they'll all be like where'd 507 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 3: he go? 508 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 1: Or like a metal gear game where you just immediately 509 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: put a box over your body and then they're looking 510 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: right at you and maybe they won't see it. Huh. 511 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: But you know, I have to say I only have 512 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: human eyes. I don't have the eyes of an eagle, 513 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: and they're not even great human eyes. But you know, 514 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: there have been times where I've been watching an animal 515 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: in the wild that is really good at its camouflage, 516 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 1: and you know, either it will be the situation of 517 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,160 Speaker 1: looking right at it and not seeing it until there 518 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: is movement, or the reverse kind of looking at it 519 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 1: in movement and in the second it stops, I cannot 520 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: see it anymore. I know it is there, but I 521 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 1: cannot actually see it. It's just based on the memory 522 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 1: of what just happened. 523 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 3: So yeah, that's how it works for predators also. I 524 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 3: mean it's again we underappreciate how effective camouflage can be 525 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 3: because we're so trained on this, like media that shows 526 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 3: you this is where it is, look right here. But okay, 527 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 3: let's say all of that has failed. You Your invisibility, 528 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 3: camouflage stealth mode has failed. You're a horned lizard and 529 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 3: you're cornered by a predator that definitely knows you're here. 530 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 3: Here we get to the active defail strategies, where you 531 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 3: try to make yourself look difficult to eat or dangerous 532 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 3: to the predator. Now, the range of behaviors described in 533 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 3: Sherbrook's book here are surprisingly diverse. I wouldn't have expected 534 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 3: this many different things to be on the record, but 535 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 3: Sherbrook lists a number of them, just in response to 536 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 3: the presence of humans. To read from a paragraph here 537 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 3: quote in an almost comic antic, one horned lizard raised 538 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,959 Speaker 3: itself high on all four legs, lowered its head, and 539 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 3: in a series of hops, approached its tormentor like a 540 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 3: charging bull. On another occasion, a horned lizard charged and 541 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 3: bit a person's boot. Normally, they do not bite when 542 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,640 Speaker 3: captured by hand, but some struggle an attempt to thrust 543 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,480 Speaker 3: their horns into the flesh of their captor. Now that's 544 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 3: kind of interesting, though. There are also reports that a 545 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 3: good number of these lizards, if picked up and handled 546 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 3: and sometimes rubbed or stroked, they will become immobile, and 547 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 3: this could be some kind of death feigning strategy, as 548 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 3: seen in some prey animals. You might wonder, like, why 549 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 3: would it be advantageous for a prey animal to pretend 550 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 3: to be dead when it has been gripped by a predator. 551 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 3: There could be different explanations, but I think it's generally 552 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 3: understood that if you pretend to be dead, you can 553 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 3: wait for the predator to relax its grip or focus 554 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 3: in order to have a moment to escape other defensive behaviors. 555 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 3: When cornered, sometimes a horned lizard will inflate its body, 556 00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,720 Speaker 3: going to puffer fish mode. This will certainly make it 557 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 3: look harder to swallow, and maybe actually be harder to swallow. Remember, 558 00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 3: predators can die from eating a horned lizard that is 559 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 3: too big, so you want the predator to be wondering 560 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 3: if you are over the. 561 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 1: Line look more difficult to eat. 562 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 3: Another strategy is the backshield thing I talked about earlier. 563 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 3: So you can sometimes flatten your back into a round 564 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 3: shield and then tilt and orient your back towards the predator. 565 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 3: This makes you look big, but also makes you look 566 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 3: difficult to eat. But apparently in other cases they'll do 567 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 3: the opposite. They'll quickly just turn and face a predator 568 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 3: head on. Sometimes they hiss like a snake. This could 569 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 3: be a signal to convey danger and aggression. Sometimes they'll 570 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 3: kind of vibrate their tails. Now, there's some other predator 571 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 3: defense strategy stuff that we might come back to in 572 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 3: part two, but I wanted to get to the blood 573 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 3: squirting here because this is the main event for me. 574 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 3: Sometimes when a horned lizard is threatened, it will blast 575 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 3: a jet of its own blood out of its eyes 576 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 3: toward the attacker. Now, again, Rob, I think you mentioned 577 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 3: this earlier. Not all horned lizard species have been observed 578 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 3: to do this. At the time of Sherbrook's book, he 579 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 3: did say that most species were known to be blood squirters, 580 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 3: the majority, where I think maybe there might be more 581 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 3: different species identified now, so it might not be the 582 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 3: majority at this point. 583 00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: I believe that's the case. But what we can look 584 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 1: again at that data before we come back with part 585 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 1: two and clarify if we need to. 586 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 3: Okay, well, certainly some species do this, Now they don't 587 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 3: do it every time they're threatened. It seems like a 588 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 3: fairly specialized behavior. Sherbroke says that among two species, Texas 589 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 3: horned lizards and regal horned lizards, blood jetting happened during 590 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 3: four to six percent of human captures, so that's not 591 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 3: most of the time. You know, it's like one and 592 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 3: twenty times. It sounds nuts. So it was indeed sometimes 593 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 3: believed to be a myth, but it is real. So 594 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 3: Sherbroke writes that you know, if a lizard is about 595 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 3: to squirt blood out of its eyes, you're going to 596 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 3: see this. In preparation, the lizard arches its back and 597 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 3: it closes its eyes, and the lids around the eyes 598 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 3: become visibly swollen, like you can see that something is 599 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 3: building up there. And then suddenly a thin stream of 600 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 3: blood jets out of one or both eyes, and it 601 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:03,160 Speaker 3: can be shot in either direction, forwards or backwards. This 602 00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 3: blood spray can reach a distance of about six feet, 603 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,720 Speaker 3: and the jet lasts for about one second per blast, 604 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 3: though the lizard can usually do it again if the 605 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 3: threat persists, so it's not just like one and done. 606 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 3: You can blast more than once six feet. 607 00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 1: That is crazy considering the size of these creatures. 608 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 3: They're a little things, aren't they. Yeah, so does the 609 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:29,200 Speaker 3: lizard lose a lot of blood from this. Yeah, yeah, 610 00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:32,320 Speaker 3: it does, but it usually recovers if it escapes the situation, 611 00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 3: so it's not like a lethal amount of blood loss, 612 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 3: but it it does lose a serious amount. 613 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 1: Better than losing all the blood and the body as well. 614 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,320 Speaker 3: That's right. So research has shown that the horned lizards 615 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,320 Speaker 3: are able to do this via a mechanism that rapidly 616 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 3: increases blood pressure in chambers within the head. So the 617 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 3: way it works is that blood flows into the head 618 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 3: via the arteries, but then the lizards have a set 619 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 3: of muscle that they can use to squeeze closed the veins, 620 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 3: leading blood back out of the head. So when they 621 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 3: squeeze these muscles, blood flows into the head but not out, 622 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 3: and excess build up of blood flows into the ocular sinuses. 623 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 3: These are voids within the facial tissue around the eye socket, 624 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 3: and this manifests externally as bulging eyelids. Eventually, the pressure 625 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 3: becomes so great that the capillaries in these sinuses burst. 626 00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:33,840 Speaker 3: Blood is rapidly released and escapes through the easiest route 627 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 3: to the surface through the eye and the tear duct 628 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 3: and here you get the blood jets. Now there's a 629 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 3: sentence in Sherbrook's book that I love there's like, oh, 630 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,360 Speaker 3: there's such a story behind this, and no description of 631 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 3: what this means. Sherbroke writes, quote, humans sampling the blood 632 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 3: sprayed do not taste anything strongly objectionable. 633 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: That statement raises a number of questions. Who methodology past 634 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,800 Speaker 1: history with the sampling of lizard blood? Yeah? And I 635 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,319 Speaker 1: mean one of the key questions though that arises from 636 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 1: this is, of course that in a lot of the literature, 637 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: the reason cited for the blood spurning is that there 638 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:20,719 Speaker 1: is something objectionable about the taste or sensation of this 639 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: creature's blood. 640 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:25,400 Speaker 3: Well, I think there is, but maybe not perceptible to humans. 641 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,760 Speaker 3: So what is the point of the blood squirting? Well, 642 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 3: according to Sherbrook, a clue comes down to the relatively 643 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:37,759 Speaker 3: selective employment of this defensive behavior against only certain predators 644 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,279 Speaker 3: we mentioned it only happens in like four to six 645 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 3: percent of human captures. The lizard usually does not squirt 646 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 3: blood out of its eyes at other predators we've mentioned earlier, 647 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 3: like birds, leopard lizards, snakes. So who do they use 648 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:57,840 Speaker 3: it against? Dogs? Wild canids such as the coyote and 649 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:02,320 Speaker 3: the kit fox or Vulpius macro. Any type of dog 650 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 3: attacks a horned lizard, here come the blood jets. When 651 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 3: any of the sprayed blood gets into a dog's mouth. 652 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,800 Speaker 3: Sherbroke says that you can usually see the dog showing 653 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 3: obvious displeasure with the taste, like shaking its head back 654 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 3: and forth, sometimes chewing or wiping its mouth on grass, 655 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,240 Speaker 3: as if trying to get the taste out of its mouth. 656 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 1: Oh wow, no, this yeah, this makes a lot of 657 00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 1: sense then. I mean, we've talked before about how dogs 658 00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: their sense of smell and therefore their sense of taste 659 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 1: is just in a realm, so far beyond human levels 660 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,080 Speaker 1: of taste and scent that they it's just a different, 661 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:39,760 Speaker 1: a different universe. 662 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:44,279 Speaker 3: Sherbrook writes, quote, clearly there is some chemical component of 663 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 3: the blood that causes dog family members goosetatory or taste distress. 664 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,799 Speaker 3: The blood never harms them, but it certainly suggests to 665 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,359 Speaker 3: them that a different meal would be more palatable. How 666 00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 3: fortunate for the horned lizard to be able to deliver 667 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:03,279 Speaker 3: that message before war being severely bitten and tasted. And 668 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:08,720 Speaker 3: Sherbrooke notes that there are some other lizards, not horned lizards, 669 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 3: that have occasionally been seen bleeding lightly from the eyes 670 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:17,439 Speaker 3: under stress, and he speculates that perhaps something like this 671 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 3: was an early stage in the evolution of this more 672 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 3: elaborate defensive measure, maybe slight bleeding from the eyes under stress. 673 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 3: And then horned lizard ancestors have blood that is for 674 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:34,720 Speaker 3: some reason distasteful to canids. Sometimes that gross blood makes 675 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 3: a predation attempt stop, and then there's evolutionary incentive to 676 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 3: bleed more and more of it preemptively to make the 677 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:46,520 Speaker 3: predation attempt stop earlier and earlier before major injury has occurred, 678 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,440 Speaker 3: until you end up with six foot jets of eyeblood. 679 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:54,319 Speaker 1: It's like really aggressive free samples in the mall food court. Yes, 680 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 1: but instead of trying to bring certain customers in, you're 681 00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 1: trying to convince them this food is not for you. Here, 682 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:01,440 Speaker 1: have a taste. 683 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 3: But so, why is this blood apparently distasteful to canids 684 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 3: to dogs? 685 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 1: So it seems like the main hypothesis, based on what 686 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,440 Speaker 1: I was looking at, is that it comes down to 687 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:16,239 Speaker 1: what these creatures eat. What the horned lizards eat, they 688 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:21,160 Speaker 1: eat copious amounts of ants, and those ants contain formic acid. 689 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,399 Speaker 1: So apparently previously researchers thought that the acidity was more 690 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 1: of a glandular product. But now you know, we understand 691 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,359 Speaker 1: that it's the blood, like that's what's shooting out. There's 692 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,680 Speaker 1: nothing being added to the blood. The blood in and 693 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:38,560 Speaker 1: of itself is supposed to have this formic acid quality. 694 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,120 Speaker 3: That's right. Sherbrooke makes this point in the book that 695 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,920 Speaker 3: it was once thought that maybe there were blands around 696 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 3: the eyes adding something to the blood before it gets 697 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,359 Speaker 3: blasted out, but they said no, there's no evidence of that. 698 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: Interesting side note, I've already mentioned another big time ant consumer, 699 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,920 Speaker 1: the giant anteater of Central and South America. That is 700 00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 1: a creature that cannot produce its own stomach acid apparently 701 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 1: and instead depends on formic acid from its prey. Wow. Yeah, 702 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:08,400 Speaker 1: I didn't know that. Another interesting fact concerning horned lizards 703 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:12,200 Speaker 1: here they apparently don't eat fire ants. Fire Ants are, 704 00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:16,040 Speaker 1: of course invasive ants from South America beyond the southern 705 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:20,760 Speaker 1: limits of the horned lizard's range. They often they're really 706 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,920 Speaker 1: more of a threat to horned lizards because they can 707 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,200 Speaker 1: push out native ant species that the horned lizard depends on, 708 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 1: while also provoking human inhabitants to deploy anti ant measures 709 00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 1: that you just don't discriminate. So all of this plays 710 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 1: a role in the habitat loss and decline of various 711 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:40,239 Speaker 1: horned lizard species. 712 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, i'd read that as well. Many horned lizard populations 713 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,480 Speaker 3: throughout the throughout North America have been in decline in 714 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:53,239 Speaker 3: recent decades. And yeah, fire ants are implicated as part 715 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:54,760 Speaker 3: of the picture for why that's happening. 716 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,239 Speaker 1: A related question that I didn't even think to ask 717 00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 1: what I just saw come up when I was searching 718 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,839 Speaker 1: around for answers on people ask well, can't we get 719 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,120 Speaker 1: some ant eaters and some armadillos in on these fire ants, 720 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,480 Speaker 1: as these creatures do eat fire ants. And the answer 721 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:12,439 Speaker 1: there is no, not really, because like an ant eater 722 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,239 Speaker 1: eats a lot of ants, but it has to go 723 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:17,719 Speaker 1: in like in quick bursts, because it's not immune to 724 00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 1: the bites, and so it's got to get in, like, 725 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 1: you know, eat a bunch of ants and get out 726 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:24,080 Speaker 1: of there before it gets too painful. And they're not 727 00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,279 Speaker 1: going to finish off a colony like they're not going 728 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,360 Speaker 1: to eat it down to the to the queen. You know, 729 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:30,879 Speaker 1: they're not gonna eat it down to the last ant. 730 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,279 Speaker 1: It's like a devastating raid, but then they have to 731 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,799 Speaker 1: move on, so it's not going to like wipe out 732 00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:41,200 Speaker 1: populations necessarily. But yes, it seems like the consumption of 733 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 1: ants is key. And I think we're gonna go ahead 734 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 1: and close out this episode, but we're gonna be back 735 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,880 Speaker 1: on Thursday. We're gonna get into various other angles concerning 736 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,719 Speaker 1: the horned lizard and also some of the traditions surrounding it, 737 00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:59,919 Speaker 1: including again I teased out some Navajo traditions and they're 738 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:01,880 Speaker 1: there is one story we're going to come back to 739 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 1: about the Holy toad who eats ants that give him power. 740 00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:09,759 Speaker 1: Whoa which is correct? The research they're looking at you 741 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:10,760 Speaker 1: absolutely correct. 742 00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:12,120 Speaker 3: I can't wait. 743 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:14,719 Speaker 1: All right, Well, we're going to go and close it out, 744 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,120 Speaker 1: but in the meantime, go ahead and write in with 745 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:22,880 Speaker 1: your observations concerning the horned lizard. You've seen them out 746 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 1: in the wild, you've studied them right in. We'd love 747 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,319 Speaker 1: to hear from you. We'll come back with part two 748 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,040 Speaker 1: on Thursday. Reminder that that's when our core episodes published 749 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:33,839 Speaker 1: Tuesdays and Thursdays every week, and the stuff to blow 750 00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:36,880 Speaker 1: your podcast feed where we are primarily a science and 751 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,400 Speaker 1: culture podcast. We do a short form episode on Wednesdays, 752 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,200 Speaker 1: and on Fridays we do Weird House Cinema. That's when 753 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:45,920 Speaker 1: we set aside most of our serious concerns to just 754 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:47,320 Speaker 1: talk about a weird film. 755 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:51,160 Speaker 3: Huge thanks to our excellent audio producer, JJ Posway. If 756 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:52,680 Speaker 3: you would like to get in touch with us with 757 00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,360 Speaker 3: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest topic 758 00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:57,640 Speaker 3: for the future, or just to say hello, you can 759 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,360 Speaker 3: email us at contact Stuff to Blow Your Mind to 760 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:08,520 Speaker 3: dot com. 761 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,560 Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 762 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:14,439 Speaker 2: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 763 00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:28,880 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows. 764 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:35,759 Speaker 1: M