1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Zero. I am Akshatrati. This week, how big 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: things become small. Among all forms of energy, the fastest 3 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:24,279 Speaker 1: growth is for electricity, and that's making people look to 4 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: every possible technology, including nuclear. Last week we talked about 5 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: how the West has been struggling to build big nuclear 6 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: power plants in recent decades. Today we'll talk about small 7 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 1: modular reactors what some say could be the solution to 8 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: the problem. Don't build large, build small. The idea is 9 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 1: enticing take something that's big and hard to build and expensive, 10 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: shrink it down to something that's more manageable, easier to replicate, 11 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: perhaps even cheaper. Instead of one huge nuclear power plant, 12 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: you build ten small ones. But right now these kinds 13 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,040 Speaker 1: of small modular reactors are very much in the startup phase, 14 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: with only two in commercial operation in Russia and in China. 15 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: There are hundreds of different designs wuying to be the 16 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: next success story, all with their own pros and cons, 17 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 1: and there are of course concerns about safety. So how 18 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: viable is the business for these small modular reactors. Will 19 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 1: SMRs ever become a scaled of solution for our energy 20 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: needs and climate goals? This week on Zero, I'm joined 21 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 1: again by Rachel's slabaw. She's a partner focused on climate, 22 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: sustainability and energy at the venture capital firm TCVC, where 23 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: she has made investments in startups that are shrinking nuclear reactors. 24 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 1: Before that, she was a tenured professor of nuclear engineering 25 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: at the University of California in Berkeley. Rachel talks us 26 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: through where we are in the development stage for SMRs, 27 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: why she's not worried about having SMRs in her garden, 28 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: and why wind, solar and nuclear developers should team up 29 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: to take on the fossil fuel lobby. This is the 30 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: second of two episodes looking at the development of nuclear 31 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: fission technologies. If you didn't listen to the first one, 32 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: we've put a link in the show notes. Rachel, Welcome 33 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: back to Zero. 34 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 2: Great to be here. Thank you so much for having me. 35 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 1: So last week on the show we covered large scale nuclear. 36 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: This week, I want to talk about SMRs small modular reactors. 37 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: Now there are already two of these reactors, one in 38 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: Russia and in China, but you know, Western governments don't 39 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: want those technologies, So these Western countries are making their 40 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: own bets. Canada has approved building two reactors, the UK 41 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: is approved one. The Tennessee Valley Authority in the US 42 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 1: wants to build one, and then there are hundreds of 43 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: companies with their own designs. So let's just start with 44 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: the basics. What has already been approved in construction for SMRs, 45 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: and which Western governments are willing to pay for them. 46 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean this is changing all the time. I'm 47 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 2: probably not going to get the current list right, but 48 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 2: one of I will point out. One of the reactors 49 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 2: that's likely to be built first, especially in Canada, is 50 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 2: called the BWRX three hundred and that's from General Electric, 51 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 2: and that is one of these sort of crossovers where 52 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 2: it's a light water reactor. It's a boiling water reactor design, 53 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,080 Speaker 2: but it's small and modular. It's three hundred megawatts, and 54 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 2: so that is one of the bridge faster paths forward 55 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 2: because the design is not that different from the designs before. 56 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 2: The supply chain is really similar, and so maybe you 57 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 2: don't get some of the benefits of the advanced reactors, 58 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 2: but you can move more quickly and you don't have 59 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 2: to wait for supply chain build out, and so it's 60 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 2: kind of a good bridge technology. And like all of 61 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 2: these things, if actually we build a bunch of them 62 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 2: on that bridge. Maybe that becomes the technology that is 63 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 2: one of the winners in the long run. 64 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: And yet it is true there are one hundred plus 65 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: small molo de reactor designs available. And sure we could 66 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: play the free market game of letting the market decide 67 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: which of these reactor designs we should pick, and that 68 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: might take one hundred years to decide. We don't have 69 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: that time. At what point do you go? This is 70 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: where governments need to come in decide we need to 71 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 1: narrow field down drastically and perhaps pick a few winners 72 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: and let that competition create the ecosystem to have nuclear I. 73 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 2: Mean, I think because nuclear is such a specific technology 74 00:04:33,560 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 2: where there are things that are inherently more sensitive than 75 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 2: some other technologies, government is always going to be involved, 76 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 2: and that's important. It also requires real expertise to understand 77 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,479 Speaker 2: what is more likely to work and what is more 78 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 2: likely to hit their cost targets, and I think it's 79 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 2: not reasonable to expect all customers to be able to 80 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 2: figure that out. And so again it makes sense because 81 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:01,039 Speaker 2: there's so much expertise required to have some government participation here, 82 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 2: and you can see that in some of these research programs, 83 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 2: and like in the US there's the Advanced Reactor Demonstration 84 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 2: program where there are a range of technology supported, but 85 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 2: two large demos selected, and one of them is a 86 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 2: sodium cold fast reactor and one of them is a 87 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 2: triso fueled gas reactor. And those are really sensible choices 88 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 2: because those are the two reactor technologies where we have 89 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:31,119 Speaker 2: the most experience and the most data, and so those 90 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 2: ones sensibly would be the first ones you would support 91 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 2: to demonstrate, because that's you know, we've had gas reactors 92 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 2: in the UK, we've had sodium fast reactors in France. 93 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 2: We've had both of them also in the US. So 94 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 2: those technologies aren't ones where we don't have any experience. 95 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: Okay, well this is the time to get nerdy about 96 00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: advanced reactors. So talk us through the main categories of 97 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 1: these reactor designs. As you said, some of them have 98 00:05:57,400 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 1: been tested, but some of them are yet to be tested. 99 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: Has been tested, and why did we even try those 100 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:03,679 Speaker 1: things in the first place. 101 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 2: So we have sodium fast reactors and that's where sodium 102 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 2: is the heat transfer media, and we have metal fuel. 103 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 2: Those are the reactors where you can use a recycling 104 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 2: process and they have really strong safety features because metal 105 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,919 Speaker 2: or sodium is a really powerful heat transfer mechanism, so 106 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 2: if anything happens in the reactor, you can get the 107 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 2: heat out really quickly and keep the fuel safe. There 108 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 2: are let's say three other major bins, so there's high 109 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 2: temperature gas reactors, and so they use typically helium as 110 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 2: the heat transfer medium, and the fuel is in very durable, 111 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 2: robust kernels called trizoparticles. They're teeny little kernels that have 112 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 2: like layers of ceramic around them, so they're incredibly durable, 113 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 2: and so the particles themselves can't really melt. So helium 114 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 2: it's a gas, it's not as good of a heat 115 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 2: transfer mechanism. So in gas reactors the safety comes from 116 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 2: the fuel form. The fuel just can't melt down. It's 117 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 2: super rugged. And then if you have a loss of 118 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:09,239 Speaker 2: coolant accident where the helium is lost, the heat transfer 119 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 2: properties of air are not so wildly different, so it's 120 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 2: not as big of a deal, and those tend to 121 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 2: operate at higher temperatures. We've built the most of those reactors. 122 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 2: And then the third category that has two subcategories is 123 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 2: molten salt reactors, and so we have built an experimental 124 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 2: molten salt reactor at Oakridge National Lab. And this is 125 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 2: where there are several different approaches. But you can instead 126 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 2: of fabricating the fuel into some kind of solid material, 127 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 2: you dissolve the fuel into the salt, so the fuel 128 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 2: is actually a liquid. It's a utectic technically, and so 129 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 2: the fission happens in the molten salt utectic and some 130 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 2: of the benefits of those molten salt very good heat 131 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 2: transfer properties, also high temperature, so you can get heat. 132 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 2: And because you're not fabricating a fuel form, you have 133 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 2: a lot of flexibility, so you can do recycling or 134 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:08,559 Speaker 2: materials management. And then there's one reactor company that's taking 135 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 2: a molten salt coolant and trizoparticles that we typically use 136 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 2: in gas reactors and combining them to get the heat 137 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 2: transfer of the salt and the durability of the fuel. 138 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 2: So it's a wild world out there. You can combine 139 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 2: these things in a lot of ways. 140 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: That's how you get to one hundred and thirty designs 141 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: or whatever there are. Yeah, exactly. You talked about how 142 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: many of these designs can then be made in different sizes. 143 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: We talked about a gigawot is the sort of standard 144 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: size large nuclear power plant, the three hundred megawort that 145 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: is now being built as a small modular reactor. There 146 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: are some ideas for two hundred, and for one hundred, 147 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: and nowadays the thing that just blows my mind is 148 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: people are talking about tiny nuclear reactors five megawort and 149 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 1: one megawote, And just so that we can put this 150 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: in scale, one megawatt is about five hundred houses worth 151 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: of power if you're a UK consumer, and probably two 152 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 1: hundred houses if you're an American consumer. And so if 153 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: we're talking something that could sit in the backyard of 154 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 1: a tiny neighborhood and just power the neighborhood. But I'm 155 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 1: worried about those because with the large power plants, the 156 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: one gigawater three hundred megaworter, you have trained people who 157 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,440 Speaker 1: operate a power plant, who know what they're doing, will 158 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: keep this thing safe. What happens when you turn these 159 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,839 Speaker 1: designs into this small thing that will not have the 160 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: economics to have a safety officer sitting next to the 161 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 1: power plant running. 162 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 2: They're a totally different type of technology. So how much 163 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 2: energy is in a gigawatt reactor is a thousand times 164 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 2: more than in a one megawatt reactor, right, and so 165 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 2: the volume of material, the intensity of the material is 166 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 2: just a totally different scale. So what you need to 167 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 2: keep that safe. You can design them so that they 168 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 2: can't melt down and that they're tamper proof because it's 169 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 2: just so much less heat to manage, so many fewer 170 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 2: things can happen. 171 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 1: And so as DCVC, you have invested in this company 172 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,959 Speaker 1: called Radiant, and it is supposed to be making these small, 173 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: very small reactors. So maybe we could take that example 174 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:26,839 Speaker 1: to try and explain to people, why do you think 175 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: that it is okay to have one of these nuclear 176 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:31,319 Speaker 1: reactors in your backyard. 177 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, and maybe it's because we talked about that. I 178 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 2: used to be a reactor operator. It was at a 179 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,200 Speaker 2: research reactor. It was one megawat thermal, so about three 180 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:44,199 Speaker 2: times smaller than one of these. But like I've operated 181 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 2: one of them, it couldn't melt down, nothing could really 182 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,439 Speaker 2: happen to it. I guess partly it's familiarity with what 183 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 2: the safety really looks like and how safe they actually are. 184 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 2: You know, at that reactor at Penn State, people would 185 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 2: call and ask what the evacuation plan was and we're like, 186 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 2: there's no evacuation, like, there's nothing can happen. I guess 187 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 2: I'm just comfortable and knowledgeable about the safety features that 188 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 2: that's not my concern. 189 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: What do they look like, how quickly can we have one? 190 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: And where would they typically be used? 191 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 2: Great questions. They're a high temperature gas reactor, so they're 192 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 2: using that super durable triso fuel with a helium coolant. 193 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 2: The reactor plus the power conversion system, all of it 194 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 2: fits into a shipping container. As you were talking about that. 195 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 2: As a scale, it's pretty small. Radiant is using a 196 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 2: super critical co too Brayton cycle to convert the power, 197 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 2: so it's a bit more efficient, and that means they 198 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 2: don't need water as a heat sink, so they can 199 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 2: cite very flexibly. They can be in aert environments. You 200 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 2: just don't have water impact concerns. 201 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,439 Speaker 1: Because the turbine that is being turned with the heat 202 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: is not being turned by steam. It's being turned by 203 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: hot CO two. 204 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 2: Yep, that's right. What are their applications? So micro reactors, 205 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 2: we do not expect that you're going to take one 206 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 2: hundred microreactors to get one hundred megawatts and have that 207 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 2: be on the grid and compete with utility scale. They're 208 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 2: in remote locations, they're in emergency situations, they're in high 209 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:20,080 Speaker 2: reliability backup. So anywhere that you would have a diesel 210 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 2: generator is where you could put a micro reactor. So 211 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 2: military bases, industrial facilities, remote communities, and for a lot 212 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 2: of these places diesel generators one, they're expensive, or they're smelly, 213 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:37,360 Speaker 2: they make a lot of local air pollution, they're loud. 214 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 2: But also the logistics of getting diesel fuel is pretty complicated, 215 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 2: and the more remote your location. I mean there are 216 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,479 Speaker 2: places in Alaska where now the roads are melting more frequently, 217 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 2: it's actually quite difficult to get fuel there. Right, there's 218 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 2: a real reliability and resilience issue around diesel fuel delivery. 219 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean, especially for Defense department, it would 220 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 1: be a godsend because one estimate of getting fuel to 221 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: a battlefront is four hundred dollars a gallon, Yeah, fifty 222 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: to eighty times the cost of fuel that you can 223 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 1: buy at the pump. And so if you have something 224 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: like a microreactor, the Defense department would be the first 225 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: ones to buy a bunch of these. 226 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 2: And even diesel fuel it's six or eight dollars a gallon, 227 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 2: which happens in a lot of places. You know, fuel 228 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 2: doesn't have to be four hundred dollars a gallon for 229 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,439 Speaker 2: a microreactor. It makes sense. We also are forward looking 230 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 2: at things like, okay, we want to build ev charging 231 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 2: stations in the middle of the country. This is maybe 232 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 2: less relevant in the UK you're not as spread out, 233 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 2: but trying to build transmission to have that charging station 234 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 2: might be slower and more expensive than just building a microreactor. 235 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 2: So there's a lot of like flexible applications. 236 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 1: If there is something like a microreactor doing a charging 237 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 1: station in a remote area, how do you make this 238 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 1: reactor stop? Because the whole point of a nuclear reactor 239 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: is you start this chain reaction that is controlled. But 240 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: if you're going to start and stop, how does a 241 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 1: reactor deal with start and stop? 242 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 2: So we have control mechanisms and you can ramp reactors, 243 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 2: and then how rampable they are depends on the design. 244 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 2: For large reactors, fuel is not that much of the 245 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 2: cost of the reactor compared to the overall capital, so 246 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 2: ramping the reactor to like save fuel doesn't make that 247 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 2: much economic sense for very small reactors, fuel is actually 248 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 2: a much larger fraction of the cost of the system, 249 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 2: and so it does make much more economic sense to 250 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 2: ramp your reactor because it's just again it's so much smaller. 251 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 2: Some of the general rules that you would use for 252 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 2: large reactors don't apply. So for small reactors, turning it down, 253 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 2: turning it off, saving the fuel actually makes sense. 254 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: And so how exactly would you do it in a 255 00:14:57,800 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 1: radiant reactor. 256 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, so we have what are called control drums. So 257 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 2: what control mechanisms do is they absorb neutrons, and so 258 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 2: you can imagine the more neutron absorber you put in there, 259 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 2: the reaction slows down, slows down, stops, and then when 260 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 2: you remove that absorber, the reaction increases again. And so 261 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 2: basically you just, in a controlled and thoughtful manner, you 262 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 2: just add more neutron absorber until the reaction gets to 263 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 2: the place where you want it to be, and then 264 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 2: to turn it back up, you remove that neutron absorber. 265 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: And could that be instantaneous like the way we do 266 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 1: batteries for example, you know, you click a button, turns 267 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: on and provides your power, So. 268 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 2: Shut down can be instantaneous. Start up slower than instantaneous. 269 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 2: You need a little bit of time. But again, on 270 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 2: one megawatt a reactor, a very small reactor, that time 271 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 2: is like minutes. For a very large reactor, it's longer, right, 272 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 2: so you have a longer time evolution. But microreactors are 273 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 2: pretty responsive. But for all of them, if you put 274 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 2: the control mechanisms in quickly, that reaction shuts down in seconds. 275 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 2: The last thing is timeline. So Radiant, the company I 276 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 2: work with, is on pace to demonstrate their reactor next year. 277 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 2: So they will turn on their first full scale demonstration 278 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 2: reactor in twenty twenty six. That's actually pretty fast. So 279 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 2: the company started in twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, 280 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 2: you know, when they were just a few employees. To 281 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 2: turning on a reactor in twenty twenty six, it will 282 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 2: have cost them less than two hundred million dollars to 283 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 2: do that. You know, it's pretty good. They expect first 284 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 2: commercial deployment in twenty twenty eight. They're going to turn 285 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 2: on that reactor at Idaho National Lab. There were recent 286 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 2: announcements that they have the slot to go do that. 287 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 2: They've got the fuel. You know, they're racking and rolling 288 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 2: and it's pretty exciting. 289 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: Join us after the break when I ask rachelously how 290 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: the economics of advanced nuclear reactors stack up. And while 291 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:07,679 Speaker 1: I have you. If you're finding this episode insightful, please 292 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: give Zero a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It's 293 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 1: great to hear your feedback and it helps new listeners 294 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: find the show. Recently, a listener who goes by Maui 295 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: Gardner said Zero is an excellent place to find what's 296 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 1: happening in climate tech. I'm not a techno geek, but 297 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: I find the show fascinating and understandable. Thank you, Maui Gardner. 298 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 1: And so, microreactors mean they'll have specific applications and they'll 299 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 1: have specific economics. But the stuff that is going to 300 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: make a difference on the energy transition at large or 301 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: small modular reactors. And so let's talk about the economics 302 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: of those. Because you started by saying they could be cheaper. 303 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: The nuclear industry has promised cheaper power for a long time, 304 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 1: but in the West it's not quite delivering on the promise. 305 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: So why do you think SMRs could do it? 306 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 2: I will say I'm not under the hood at any 307 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 2: of the other SMR companies knowing the blow by blow 308 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 2: of how the economics are really looking. So this is 309 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 2: more from the outside philosophical. So, as I mentioned, because 310 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 2: we're not very good at megaprojects, we do tend to 311 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 2: be good at factory manufacturing. And so if you replace 312 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 2: the economy of scale with economy of numbers, right, so 313 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:33,239 Speaker 2: you're making a lot of the same thing over and 314 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 2: over again. It's repeatable, it's modular, it's shippable, and you're 315 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 2: limiting how much on site work you're doing so that 316 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:46,400 Speaker 2: it's more rinstant repeat and less redesign for every location. 317 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 2: We tend to do better and more predictably economically. 318 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: There. 319 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 2: The other is because these reactors do have such high 320 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 2: inherent safety, it is likely that we will need fewer 321 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 2: systems and less complication to keep them safe. So it's 322 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,199 Speaker 2: not that we want have safety systems, it's just that 323 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 2: it's easier to do the safety systems. A lot of them, 324 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 2: for example, don't operate at pressure. So large light water 325 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 2: reactors even the there's pressurized and there's boiling, but all 326 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 2: of them operated a pretty high pressure. So you need 327 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 2: like thick steel vessels if you don't need such a 328 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 2: stick theal vessel that can only be made one or 329 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 2: two places in the world. Now that saves cost. So 330 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 2: there's a lot of things that are simpler. And then 331 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 2: by making them smaller, they can be fabricated more places, 332 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 2: they can be three D printed. You know, you just 333 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 2: have so much more flexibility and resilience in the supply chain. 334 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,440 Speaker 2: You don't need that size of a crane, you don't 335 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 2: need to dig up as much dirt, you don't need 336 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 2: to pour as much nuclear grade concrete. Like, just everything 337 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 2: gets simpler. 338 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: So China has one small modular reactor that is actually 339 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 1: connected to the grid today. Russia has built a small 340 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: modular reactor that is on a floating ship that it 341 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: can move around and provide power. And for all the 342 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,439 Speaker 1: talk in the West about small modular reactors, what the 343 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 1: West has done and to its credit, has innovated and 344 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: developed lots and lots of interesting designs, but hasn't really 345 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 1: built any. So why is it that if advanced reactors 346 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: have these other properties that you're talking about, which it 347 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: would be smaller, cheaper to make, and something that the 348 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 1: West could use, especially AI data companies could use. Why 349 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:34,359 Speaker 1: is it that Russia and China are investing and actually 350 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: building these things first political will. 351 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 2: Mostly they are structured differently. Right in China and Russia 352 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:45,359 Speaker 2: it's very state owned in top down. Also to some extent, 353 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 2: the reason France has been so successful in nuclear is similar. 354 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 2: And the United States and most of the West has 355 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 2: more of a hybrid system where there's government involvement but 356 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 2: it's mostly free market but also like quasi free market 357 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:06,639 Speaker 2: and so you end up with convoluted incentives sometimes. And 358 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 2: so if the United States had decided this is for 359 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 2: sure what we're going to do, we could do it. 360 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 2: But the market drivers of real load growth to pull 361 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 2: these things forward has only just happened, right, and so 362 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 2: one could argue, yes, these are interesting designs and there 363 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 2: was reason to care about them, but without the load 364 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 2: growth to drive the demand, it's hard to move really 365 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 2: anything forward. And now we're in that point in time 366 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 2: and then everyone's like, oh, but these aren't ready yet, 367 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 2: and it's like, well, you got to, like you have 368 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 2: to have that combination of planning ahead syncd up with 369 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 2: market signals, and so it's a it's a little messy, 370 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 2: but we're getting there. 371 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: In the future, we're going to bet on a bunch 372 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 1: of technologies that are going to help us with the 373 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: energy transition, with trying to meet this growing power. The 374 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,639 Speaker 1: competition for nuclear is going to be all of those. 375 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: So the first competition is gas, The second competition is 376 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: solar and when combined with batteries of some sort, maybe 377 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: long duration batteries. The third competition growing now is geothermal, 378 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:16,639 Speaker 1: in advanced geothermal, which can also provide power all the time. 379 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,880 Speaker 1: Why do you think then nuclear is a good bet 380 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: to make because all these other things have plenty of 381 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 1: promise too. 382 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 2: It is good to have a resilient system where you 383 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 2: have a variety of technology sources, so that, for example, 384 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 2: if everything was natural gas, electricity prices would be so 385 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 2: subject to the price of natural gas it would not 386 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:41,880 Speaker 2: be a very stable environment for businesses or consumers. Geothermal 387 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 2: has a likelihood to be more stable. Geothermal is going 388 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 2: to become viable in more and more locations, but it's 389 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,440 Speaker 2: not viable in every location. It makes sense to have 390 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 2: a variety of technologies just in principle, and also, the 391 00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 2: amount of electricity growth we are taught talking about is 392 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:05,640 Speaker 2: so high we don't have time to only build one 393 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 2: thing like that just isn't gonna work. You're going to 394 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 2: have to build some of everything because you're going to 395 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 2: need to exercise multiple supply chains and multiple skill sets 396 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 2: and multiple people. There's such a fighting over the pime 397 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 2: mentality like the pie is getting bigger. 398 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: There's plenty of pie, and what about the public perception 399 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:26,919 Speaker 1: of it? So we talked a little bit about safety, 400 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 1: but there is real safety risk, and then there's perceived 401 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 1: safety risk. And there is a lot of perceived safety 402 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: risk around nuclear that holds back people's support for the technology. 403 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,199 Speaker 1: And it is not to say perceived safety risk is 404 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: one that you should swipe away, because you have to 405 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: convince people that this is something that is worth the 406 00:23:55,720 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: money and something worth investing in four or their interest 407 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 1: for their benefit. Are there places in the world where 408 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: you think that has been done well and what lessons 409 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: can we draw from it. 410 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,360 Speaker 2: It's a huge mix, and it actually is changing really actively. 411 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 2: So we've seen among millennials and now gen Z a 412 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 2: much stronger openness to nuclear because climate change is the 413 00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:29,920 Speaker 2: bigger concern and your right perception of risk. Humans are 414 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 2: very poor at risk perception for most types of risks. 415 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,919 Speaker 2: So nuclear is actually the safest form of energy that 416 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 2: we have. But if there's an accident, it feels scary, 417 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 2: and it's just we can't have systems that can have accidents. 418 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 2: So one of the things that I think is helpful 419 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,360 Speaker 2: about advanced reactors is that it is easier to make 420 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 2: them safe. And so if you just get out of 421 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,360 Speaker 2: the category of it's even possible to have an accident 422 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 2: or a meaningful accident, it's just simpler because there's no 423 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 2: world in which humans aren't going to think reactor meltdowns 424 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 2: aren't scary. Just like driving is way more dangerous than flying. 425 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 2: People are afraid of flying, they're not afraid of driving. 426 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,680 Speaker 2: It doesn't matter if it's dangerous or not. It's it's 427 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 2: risk perception. The UK has actually overall done a good job. 428 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 2: South Korea has done a medium job. Sweden has done 429 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 2: a pretty good job. France has done a medium job. 430 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 2: So it's a big mix. I think Switzerland has done 431 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 2: a pretty good job. They're fifty percent nuclear, even though 432 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 2: they're very small, and in the US it's it's been changing. 433 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 2: Part of it is how active is the opposition to 434 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 2: nuclear energy. We didn't talk about this, but one of 435 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 2: the things about nuclear that is so compelling is the 436 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 2: fuel is incredibly efficient, so The reason it doesn't matter 437 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 2: to save cost on fuel in those big reactors is 438 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,639 Speaker 2: you just need almost none of it. So a fuel 439 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,439 Speaker 2: pellet the size of the last knunkle of my pinky 440 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,640 Speaker 2: will make the same amount of energy as one ton 441 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,399 Speaker 2: of coal or three barrels of oil. And so you 442 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 2: just don't have the same size of industry compared to 443 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 2: some of these other industries, so you don't have as 444 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 2: powerful of lobbying groups, so you don't have the same 445 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,520 Speaker 2: resources to go make sure people understand what the technology is, 446 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,400 Speaker 2: and you have competitor technologies that have quite a lot 447 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 2: of resources. That most anti nuclear campaigns are funded by 448 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 2: oil and gas. 449 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: Wow has that been proven? 450 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 2: Yes? 451 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 1: Wow? Expand on that, like, I didn't know that. 452 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean who's the I think it used 453 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,439 Speaker 2: to be different, But like, who is the biggest loser 454 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 2: of nuclear succeeds. 455 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 1: It's oil and gas. Yeah, but that's also true of 456 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,399 Speaker 1: wind and solar and so like then there has to 457 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: be some lobby that renewables and nuclear come together. Is 458 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: that happening? Oh you wish it. 459 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 2: Would maybe someday. Both communities have too much of a 460 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 2: small pie mentality, I would say, And don't recognize that 461 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:02,880 Speaker 2: they're actually fighting for the same thing. 462 00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: So yes, it's an efficient fuel, and the amount of 463 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 1: waste it produces relative to save fossil fuels or even 464 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 1: some of the renewable technologies which are much less waste 465 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: producing but still do have some waste. Nuclear waste in 466 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,439 Speaker 1: volume is small, but there are two big problems with it. 467 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,159 Speaker 1: One is that the length of time that the waste 468 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 1: could be radioactive and could be harmful is immensely long. 469 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 1: We're talking thousands of years, which is again a timeline 470 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: that human perception doesn't allow you to really understand. And 471 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 1: then second, it's that so far we've not really done 472 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: a very good job of dealing with the nuclear waste 473 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 1: we do have. So here in the UK, waste from 474 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: nuclear weapons and from nuclear power plants is in one 475 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 1: site and cell a field, and yes it's there and 476 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,120 Speaker 1: it's being managed, but it's also one which people are 477 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: aware of and feel fear from. So what should we 478 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: do with the waste problem? 479 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 2: Yeah? No, I would love to see us actually solve it. 480 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,120 Speaker 2: And there are a few countries that are again mostly 481 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,640 Speaker 2: smaller European countries where decision making is simpler, that are 482 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 2: making good progress on what to do with their waste. 483 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,679 Speaker 2: The biggest challenge with nuclear waste is that it's a 484 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,640 Speaker 2: problem with no urgency because there isn't that much of it, 485 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 2: and it's safe how it is for like, it's safe today, 486 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 2: it's safe next year, it's safe in ten years, it's 487 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 2: safe in fifty years. So who's going to expend the 488 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 2: political capital and energy on solving the problem. So some 489 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 2: of the issue is that it just it's fine how 490 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 2: it is for now, and so it's really hard to 491 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 2: get people to move on the topic. And because these 492 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 2: solutions are long term solutions in politicized environments, it's easy 493 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 2: for them to be reversed. That's what happened in the US. 494 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 2: So it may be that we'll pitdle around to not 495 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 2: solving it for long enough that we actually will just 496 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 2: get recycling stood up and then it's a simpler problem 497 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 2: to solve. 498 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 1: What are the solutions that you think are working though, 499 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: which you consider as good solutions and an operation today? 500 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you can do deep geologic storage, where basically 501 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 2: you dig a hole deep in the ground that's a 502 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 2: very well studied and thoughtful hole, and you store it 503 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 2: in casks underground. That's what most people are thinking about 504 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 2: is geologic storage. You also for smaller volumes you can do. 505 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 2: There's a startup actually doing borehole storage, where you instead 506 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 2: of making one big hole, you make some smaller holes 507 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,479 Speaker 2: and store it in a more dispersed fashion. There are 508 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 2: some more exotic ideas that have never really gotten much purchase, 509 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 2: like oh, what if you put it in a deep 510 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 2: sea subduction zone and let it get stucked back into 511 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 2: the crust. I actually think it's a pretty good idea, 512 00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 2: but we don't know enough about the deep ocean maybe 513 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 2: to satisfy what we would need to satisfy to say 514 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 2: that was okay. And then there's recycling, and that's where 515 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 2: because nuclear fuel just isn't that expensive, it hasn't been 516 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 2: economically viable to recycle. So so far it's only been 517 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 2: a country like France where there's a strategic national interest 518 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 2: of you know, they don't have that much fuel resource themselves, 519 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 2: or they don't have any fuel resource themselves. They've gone 520 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 2: all in on nuclear and so recycling makes sense for 521 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 2: them so that they can really extend their fuel supply. 522 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: That was a lot of fun. Thank you Rachel, Thank 523 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: you Exhan. 524 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 2: It was great to be here. 525 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: And thank you for listening to Zero. And now for 526 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: the sound of the week. That is the sound of 527 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: a Formula car racing in London, going at speeds of 528 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: up to three hundred and twenty kilometers per hour indoors. 529 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: Formula E is vying with Formula one to become the 530 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: world's most popular racing sport, something we'll be covering in 531 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: a future episode of Zero. If you liked this episode, 532 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: please take a moment to rate and review the show 533 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Share this episode with a 534 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 1: friend or with someone who is not a techno geek. 535 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Oscar boyd Our. Theme music 536 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 1: is composed by Wonderly Special Thanks to Eleanor Harrison, Dungate, Samersadi, 537 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: Moses Andim and Shawan Wagner. I'm Akshatrati back soon.