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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to coast am on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Karen, When you look at the Giza Pyramids, what is

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Speaker 2: your best assumption on how they were made?

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Speaker 3: This is hard because the Egyptians are building weapons of

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Speaker 3: the mind with these things, so they're not going to

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Speaker 3: lead blueprints. It's like if you're building a nuclear bomb,

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Speaker 3: you don't publish how you build it so that everyone

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Speaker 3: else can build one too.

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Speaker 4: So it's something that you really keep close to the vest.

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Speaker 3: They're not and there's not many pyramids that are built

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Speaker 3: of stone through and through of this size. You know,

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Speaker 3: the Great Pyramid on the Giza Plateau is fifty stories

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Speaker 3: high and it wasn't no building higher structurally was built

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Speaker 3: until the Eiffel Tower, right, So that still blows our mind.

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Speaker 2: And I'm told we have cranes that can't even move

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Speaker 2: the blocks of stone today.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So my best answer, and I haven't seen any

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Speaker 3: Egyptologists really work this out in a way that's satisfied

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Speaker 3: to me, is that they used hydraulics more than anything else.

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Speaker 3: If you're going to put a block in place every

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Speaker 3: two minutes, which is what you need to build the

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Speaker 3: pyramid of that size over a twenty year span of time,

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Speaker 3: which is the evidence that we have that it was

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Speaker 3: about twenty some years that they took to build these pyramids.

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Speaker 4: Block in place every two minutes, you're going to need to.

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Speaker 3: Use water because nothing moves stone faster then floating it

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Speaker 3: and floating it into place, and then even up into place.

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Speaker 3: So the idea of using water to lift stones, I

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Speaker 3: think is a really interesting one to play with, and

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Speaker 3: it is going to be way easier than using ramps.

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Speaker 3: But I'm also one of those Egyptologists a little bit crazy,

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Speaker 3: who likes the Jean Pierre Houdin theory of the inside

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Speaker 3: out pyramid construction, where you put your outer stones on first,

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Speaker 3: and there's an internal ramp that's circular that you go

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Speaker 3: up with and then you finish it as you go

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Speaker 3: on down with your outer casing stones. That the idea

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Speaker 3: that you don't need a ramp on the outside. If

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Speaker 3: you had a single ramp going up the side of

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Speaker 3: the Great Pyramid, it would be more than a kilometer

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Speaker 3: long and people would fall off it and they would die.

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Speaker 4: So it's kind of stupid. There's no evidence for that

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Speaker 4: amount of earth.

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Speaker 3: If you had a ramp going up around the sides

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Speaker 3: of the pyramid, like spiraling up around it. We don't

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Speaker 3: have evidence for that amount of stone either. What if

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Speaker 3: you had a ramp on the inside of the pyramid

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Speaker 3: that's inside of the structure that we can't see unless

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Speaker 3: we dismantled this thing blocked by block, which you're not

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Speaker 3: going to do because it's a World Heritage Site, et cetera,

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Speaker 3: et cetera. So there could be a ramp on the

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Speaker 3: inside to move these stones once they started to get

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Speaker 3: higher into place. But I think for the base of

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Speaker 3: that pyramid, the bulk at the bottom where most of

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Speaker 3: those stones are, you're going to be lifting them into

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Speaker 3: place using as much water as you possibly can, and

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Speaker 3: then you're going to get a whole bunch of dudes

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Speaker 3: to come and labor is cheap in Egypt, it still is,

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Speaker 3: and it was in the ancient world, and then they

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Speaker 3: would use as many guys as possible to move those

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Speaker 3: blocks into place.

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Speaker 2: What if they knew the secret of Shan resonance and

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Speaker 2: they kind of floated the blocks in the place.

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Speaker 3: I haven't seen any evidence for this. I'm still waiting

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Speaker 3: for the floating car. So you know, I haven't seen

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Speaker 3: any floating blocks with sound, and I've heard of amazing

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Speaker 3: things happening with sound. I've seen squares cleared of protesters

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Speaker 3: using sound cannons.

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Speaker 4: I haven't seen those kinds.

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Speaker 3: Of devices able to lift blocks of stone, destroy them, maybe,

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Speaker 3: but not lift them and levitate them carefully into place

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Speaker 3: so that they're put exactly where they need to be

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Speaker 3: towards true cardinal North.

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Speaker 4: Haven't seen yet.

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Speaker 2: You're working on a book on neffer td. Egypt may

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Speaker 2: have been one of the weird places. And I say

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Speaker 2: weird because no other countries were doing this, that gave

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Speaker 2: women so much power in those days.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I have a book called When Women Ruled the World,

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Speaker 3: And in this book I talk about I talk about

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Speaker 3: six different women, five of whom became nothing less than king,

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Speaker 3: not queen. The ancient Egyptians use the word queen for

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Speaker 3: the sexual partner of the king. They use the word

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Speaker 3: king for these women when they reached that pinnacle of

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Speaker 3: power and were nothing less than monarch. And you can

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Speaker 3: look at their path to power and understand that this

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Speaker 3: was a place that allowed women to transcend the normal

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Speaker 3: patriarchal structures in a way that nowhere.

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Speaker 4: Else on earth did.

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Speaker 3: And I have a class that UCLA called women in

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Speaker 3: power in the ancient world. That compares Egypt to Greece,

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Speaker 3: to Rome, to Persia to the Levant to Mesopotamia. Trying

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Speaker 3: to figure out why Egypt, what was it that they

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Speaker 3: were doing. Do they have different DNA no, where they

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Speaker 3: were enlightened than other people in the ancient world. Maybe,

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Speaker 3: But there's a number of reasons why I think women

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Speaker 3: were able to rise to power there. One of them

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Speaker 3: is a bit of an uncomfortable truth, and that's unequal

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Speaker 3: power distribution, authoritarianism, kingship. The more unequal to power, the

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Speaker 3: more liable you will be to give it to a

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Speaker 3: woman if that keeps the power, or in the family,

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Speaker 3: if your close circle of elites gets to maintain that power,

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Speaker 3: you'll give it to a woman if it means you

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Speaker 3: get to maintain your power too. A place like Greece,

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Speaker 3: where you have a democratia, one man falls, another man's

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Speaker 3: going to take his place immediately, you don't have the

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Speaker 3: possibility for a woman to take power in that kind

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Speaker 3: of system. It's funny living in a democracy and seeing

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Speaker 3: how hard it is for women to make it to

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Speaker 3: the presidency of a directly elected office. In the United States,

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Speaker 3: and I would say the democracy is not helping. Whereas

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Speaker 3: you could be a general and you're appointed to that position,

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Speaker 3: their women can find their way ahead in the United

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Speaker 3: States in an easier fashion unless you get fired, like

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Speaker 3: the latest leader of the navy was just fire.

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Speaker 2: What happened to lost knowledge in those days? I mean

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Speaker 2: where did it go? Did it?

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know they didn't have computer hard drives,

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Speaker 3: but what happened to your floppy disc? You know you

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Speaker 3: have lost knowledge, right, you have lost knowledge, maybe in

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Speaker 3: a notebook that you've lost, or a floppy drive you

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Speaker 3: don't know how to turn on anymore, a computer that

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Speaker 3: doesn't work. Do you know what your emails look like

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Speaker 3: from nineteen ninety seven? I don't have my emails from

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Speaker 3: nineteen ninety seven. So that's just our simple technological loss knowledge.

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Speaker 3: If you're writing things down on papyrus, or if you're

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Speaker 3: a cuneiform expert from Mesopotamia, whatever your medium is, if

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Speaker 3: you're writing things down in that sort of impermanent or

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Speaker 3: permanent hopefully permanent, but impermanent on real materials kind of way,

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Speaker 3: you'll always lose something. And the hope is that you

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Speaker 3: copy and copy things again so that you can maintain

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Speaker 3: some knowledge. The more I study the ancient world, the

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Speaker 3: more I may amazed. I am that anything survives, that

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Speaker 3: I can write a book that's about Neffertiiti.

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Speaker 4: As you say, I'm working on that book now. I'm

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Speaker 4: going to be able to.

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Speaker 3: Write a whole four hundred sum page book about a

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Speaker 3: woman who lived thirty five hundred years ago, and I'm

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Speaker 3: going to delve into the politics of the time, the

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Speaker 3: religion of the time, what bet she had, who she.

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Speaker 4: Was married to.

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Speaker 3: That's extraordinary that I can do that at all with

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Speaker 3: someone who lived almost four thousand years ago.

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Speaker 2: How many female rulers has Egypt.

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Speaker 3: Had dozens, but only five of them became king, and

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Speaker 3: there are many of them who acted as queen regent.

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Speaker 3: Egypt did not trust the uncle or the brother of

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Speaker 3: the uncle of the new king or the brother of

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Speaker 3: the dead king to act for a young king in power.

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Speaker 3: But Egypt demanded that even if a boy came to

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Speaker 3: the throne, if the king died suddenly and you got

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Speaker 3: a twelve year old to put on the throne, the

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Speaker 3: Egyptians would do it any other place in the world,

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Speaker 3: likely that kid would be dead before the week was out,

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Speaker 3: and the guy holding the knife would be like, I'm king,

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Speaker 3: and everyone say, yes, you are. But in Egypt, where

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Speaker 3: they believed in divine kingship, that child was often more

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Speaker 3: often than not allowed to rule.

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Speaker 4: But because they were so.

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Speaker 3: Young and you didn't want to give them all of

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Speaker 3: the keys of the kingdom, you had a wise decision

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Speaker 3: maker making the policy rules while the child learned the job.

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Speaker 3: A mother is the best person to act on in

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Speaker 3: the child's best interest, to step back when the child

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Speaker 3: is getting better at ruling on his own. And it's

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Speaker 3: in that capacity as queen regent that women were really

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Speaker 3: able to hold the reins of Egypt, sometimes informally just

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Speaker 3: as the mother of the king, and then they would

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Speaker 3: step back into the shadows when he.

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Speaker 4: Grew into his power. But other times they were able

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Speaker 4: to use that position to gain nothing less than kingship.

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Speaker 2: Was there a royal bloodline in Egypt?

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Speaker 4: Always lineage is everything.

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Speaker 3: I was just talking about this with my class, that

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Speaker 3: there's this hidden institution called the harem where all of

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Speaker 3: these women are collected together, young beautiful women, to intensify

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Speaker 3: the sexual procreation of one man of the king. Because

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Speaker 3: that lineage was like the secret weapon par excellence.

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Speaker 4: That was the way the elites kept their power. You

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Speaker 4: needed to.

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Speaker 3: Make sure that you had the air and the spare

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Speaker 3: and twenty more guys lined up so that you always

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Speaker 3: had a lineage to go towards. But it was a

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Speaker 3: double edged sword having a whole lot of sons. You

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Speaker 3: wanted to make sure that you had sons to carry

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Speaker 3: on your legacy. But when it comes time the king

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Speaker 3: dies and a new king takes his place, you only

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Speaker 3: need one. You don't need twenty, you don't need thirty,

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Speaker 3: you don't need fifty. And if you have too many

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Speaker 3: sons who have the opportunity for power, you get civil war.

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Speaker 3: So it's a double edged sword. This haram economy of

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Speaker 3: creating a lot of children of the king, But it

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Speaker 3: shows the anxiety that the Egyptians had at keeping a

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Speaker 3: lineage strong. The Egyptians idealized a perfected lineage from father

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Speaker 3: to son to grandson forever. Nothing ever worked that way.

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Speaker 3: The longest dynasty from all of ancient Egypt is Thetolemaic

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Speaker 3: dynasty of the Macedonian Greeks, not Egyptian at all those

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Speaker 3: three hundred years. Other dynasties tend to last about two

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Speaker 3: hundred years. It's not bad for a ruling family to

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Speaker 3: maintain some sort of lineage, But these dynasties tried to

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Speaker 3: keep everything in the family through incests, and so you

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Speaker 3: have another tension between short term strategies keep it all

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Speaker 3: in the family. Let's do a brother sister marriage. The

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Speaker 3: eighteenth dynasty of the New Kingdom started with two full

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Speaker 3: brother sister marriages in succession, and that ended up creating

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Speaker 3: a king named Amenhotep the First, who couldn't, we think,

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Speaker 3: have any children because he was probably sterile from being

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Speaker 3: a product of that incest, and they had to bring

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Speaker 3: in another relative not indirect lineage, named tut Mosa. He's

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Speaker 3: known to us as Tutmos the First, and he's not

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Speaker 3: a son of Amenhotep the First, So sometimes they had

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Speaker 3: to get a little shady to keep that lineage going.

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Speaker 2: When did the dynastes die out and why?

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Speaker 3: It depends the end of the twelfth dynasty, I think

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Speaker 3: died out because of incests and because they couldn't have

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Speaker 3: an heir. The end of the sixth dynasty, he seems

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Speaker 3: to have died out because of a combination of climactic

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Speaker 3: problems drought and famine, and it seems to have fallen

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Speaker 3: into a decentralized kind of economic mess. And then the

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Speaker 3: end of the New Kingdom, the end of the twentieth

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Speaker 3: ninety see what we called the Bronze Age collapse is

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Speaker 3: also it's a period that I know, well, it's what

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Speaker 3: my book Recycling for Death is about. I am looking

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Speaker 3: at the Bronze Age collapse through coffins and it's a

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Speaker 3: perfect storm of economic problems, of environmental degradation, certainly in

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Speaker 3: the northern Mediterranean, such that people are leaving in mass

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Speaker 3: movements and moving around the Mediterranean as pirates or settlers

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Speaker 3: or migrants and coming into Egypt in multiple waves over

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Speaker 3: hundreds of years, destabilizing the region. And you're also dealing

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Speaker 3: with the kingship.

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Speaker 4: That becomes too big for itself.

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Speaker 3: You know, we talk about a company like IBM, is

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Speaker 3: IBM too big? Is Boeing too big?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 3: How big is too big a company? But UCLA I

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Speaker 3: talked about how it's too big all the time. And

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Speaker 3: the more centralized it gets, the more inefficient it gets.

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Speaker 3: And there is such a thing that happens in ancient Egypt.

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Speaker 3: You have these institutions that are too big to fail,

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Speaker 3: so much so that they fail and things turn into

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Speaker 3: a decentralized mess, and you have a collapse that demands

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Speaker 3: that people start again.

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Speaker 2: Kara, at what point, what year did Rome take over?

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Speaker 3: Rome's going to be taken over with the death of Cleopatra,

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Speaker 3: and so that's going to be thirty BCE. Many people

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Speaker 3: think Cleopatra committed suicide to avoid being put into chains

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Speaker 3: and paraded by Octavian in the.

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Speaker 4: Streets of Rome in a triumph.

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Speaker 3: I think that Octavian murdered Cleopatra and then spread this

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Speaker 3: rumor that served him and his propagandistic interest in having

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Speaker 3: complete authoritarian rule over the Roman Empire, which no senator

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Speaker 3: had ever taken before, and he demonized her and turned

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Speaker 3: her into this trope of a woman taking a man's

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Speaker 3: way out, committing suicide like a warrior and abandoning her people,

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Speaker 3: abandoning her children and her sons to be hunted down

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Speaker 3: by the Romian Roman warriors. But it was Egypt's loss,

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Speaker 3: It was the Ptolemaic loss, Cleopatra's death that allowed Rome

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Speaker 3: to settle its troops into Egypt and allowed Octavian to

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Speaker 3: take it. Every senator up to that point there had

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Speaker 3: been multiple civil wars fought by Romans. Roman senators, many

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Speaker 3: of them revolving around Egypt, like vulture circling around Egypt.

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Speaker 3: Who was going to take it? Julius Caesar tried to

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Speaker 3: take Egypt. He settled garrisons there, and he got killed

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Speaker 3: for it. They put a target on his back so

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Speaker 3: bright that they murdered it.

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Speaker 4: Him on the steps of the senate in Rome.

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Speaker 3: Because if you get Egypt in the Roman mind and

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Speaker 3: in the material mind, you have control over all the

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Speaker 3: money in the world to build the best army that

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Speaker 3: you need to pay all of them their wages. And

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Speaker 3: it was Octavian who was able to finally take the

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Speaker 3: prize of Egypt. And it was Egypt that launched him

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Speaker 3: into that princept's position, the imperial position of being the

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Speaker 3: first among many. Even though they didn't call it a king,

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Speaker 3: he was a king. He created his own lineage and

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Speaker 3: passed it on to his adopted son. So yeah, Rome

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Speaker 3: took over when the last Ptolemaic ruler was killed.

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