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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. We have a show that will completely,

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Speaker 1: totally and utterly blow your mind. Run for some things.

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Speaker 1: Amanda Lippman will tell us about how they're preparing to

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Speaker 1: win local races in twenty twenty four. Then we'll talk

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Speaker 1: to the Washington Post Ben Terris about his new book,

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Speaker 1: The Big Break, The Gamblers, Party, Animals and True Believers

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Speaker 1: trying to win in Washington. Will America loses its mind?

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Speaker 1: But first we have the host of the Enemy's List,

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Speaker 1: The One, the Only, the Lincoln Projects, Rick Wilson. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to Fast Politics.

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Speaker 2: Rick Wilson, Good morning, Molly.

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Speaker 3: How are you today?

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Speaker 1: We're all just recovering from the White House Correspondence Dinner.

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Speaker 3: I too, am recovering for the White House Correspondence Dinner.

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Speaker 3: Our various witnesses to history and drama and amusements. We're

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Speaker 3: well noted across a variety of media platforms. This week.

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Speaker 1: We're not going to talk about Kelly and Conway.

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Speaker 3: I'm not talking about Kelly and Conway.

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Speaker 1: I am absolutely not talking about Kelly and Conway.

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Speaker 3: I'm totally not going to mention Kelly and Conway's egregious behavior. Yes,

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Speaker 3: I would never, as an eyewitness to her egregious behavior,

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Speaker 3: mention her egregious behavior.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad we've cleared that up. Yes, so now we

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Speaker 1: will not talk about Kelly and Conway, but we will

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Speaker 1: talk about this dead ceiling fuckery. Here we are. The

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Speaker 1: Republicans have passed a budget. Can you pass a budget

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Speaker 1: for not paying your bills?

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Speaker 3: Well, not for long? I mean, this is like the

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Speaker 3: guy who's out spending money on hookers and yachts, and

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Speaker 3: he sits down in his kitchen and makes a perfectly

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Speaker 3: rational budget on a spreadsheet, but leaves out the lines

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Speaker 3: that say hookers and yachts.

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Speaker 1: Here's the thing, Like if I called American Express right

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Speaker 1: now and was like, look, man, April, I have something else.

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Speaker 1: Can I just send you something else?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 1: I mean? Is this even normal behavior to pass a

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Speaker 1: budget for some money that you already No.

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Speaker 3: It's really not. What they're doing here is they want

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Speaker 3: to look away from the spending binge that happened under Trump,

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Speaker 3: for which this debt ceiling is what we're paying for,

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Speaker 3: and basically burn down the rest of the economy in

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Speaker 3: the meantime so that they can score political points before

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Speaker 3: for twenty four and beat Joe Biden. There is a

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Speaker 3: profoundly nihilistic nature to today's Republican Party where they believe

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Speaker 3: that they're going to win for the first time. And

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Speaker 3: by the way, they got their ass handed to them

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Speaker 3: on the debt ceiling shit back in nineteen ninety five,

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Speaker 3: they got their ass handed to them on the debt

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Speaker 3: ceiling in twenty eleven. It goes on and on. It's

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Speaker 3: never a smart strategy politically speaking. But they believe that

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Speaker 3: their audience now is so destructive and so profoundly shitty

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Speaker 3: that they would accept the economic consequences if it was

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Speaker 3: a chance to own the Libs and blame Joe Biden.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I'm not convinced that these Republicans even understand the

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Speaker 1: consequences of their actions.

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Speaker 3: Well, look, I will tell you McCarthy actually does understand it.

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Speaker 3: He's been around long enough to see how badly it

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Speaker 3: fucked the Republicans right in twenty eleven. And never forget

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Speaker 3: Kevin McCarthy's best friend, his chief advisor, his number one

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Speaker 3: bro is a lobbyist named Jeff Miller, whose clients include

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Speaker 3: all kinds of major private equity people, Wall Street banks,

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Speaker 3: hedge fund brows who all understand that once you blow

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Speaker 3: up the full faith in credit of the American government

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Speaker 3: and blow up our credit rating, their bottom lines taken

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Speaker 3: immediate and consequential and really ugly strike against them. That

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Speaker 3: is not where he wants to be or his clients

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Speaker 3: want to be. And Kevin actually he's weak and he's stupid,

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Speaker 3: but he's not completely like eating lead paint chips. This

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Speaker 3: is a guy who understands that this hurt the Republicans

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Speaker 3: in the past and can certainly hurt them again.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about right now where this goes. Because

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Speaker 1: we saw Jenny Yellen saying that the government has money

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Speaker 1: till we had heard July. She said June first, which

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Speaker 1: seems bad.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know because at the time we're recording this,

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Speaker 3: there are eight total days in which both the House

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Speaker 3: and Senate are in session. They are a bajillion gajillion

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Speaker 3: miles apart, and partly because Joe Biden's position is I

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Speaker 3: would like a clean debt sailing limit like you guys

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Speaker 3: voted for three times during Trump so we can get

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Speaker 3: on with the business at hand. And their position is

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Speaker 3: we want to burn it all down and live in

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Speaker 3: the radioactive ruins while our children eat rats over open fires. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it is the nihilist versus the adult position once again,

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Speaker 3: and this it should You can't underestimate the degree to

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Speaker 3: which the Republican Party now is profoundly nihilistic about all

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Speaker 3: these things. They understand at the grown up level how

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Speaker 3: bad this is going to be. But there are some

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Speaker 3: of them, like you know, Matt Gates and Margie Taylor

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Speaker 3: Green and Paul Gosar and the rest of the weirdo

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Speaker 3: caucus who think, wow, this will be fun man, this

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Speaker 3: is going to be great, And people like Steve Bannon

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Speaker 3: who think, yes, we will burn it all down and

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Speaker 3: then I can replace with my authoritarian nationalism in the

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Speaker 3: form of my best friend again, Donald Trump.

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Speaker 1: Right right, It's funny because it's like we just cannot

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Speaker 1: move past this reality that the Republican Party has completely

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Speaker 1: lost its mind.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, look, and the profound realization that a

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Speaker 3: lot of us have had over the last few years

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Speaker 3: is that there is no policy left. They've kept the

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Speaker 3: branding of the old Republican policy, like we want to

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Speaker 3: be fiscally responsible, they want to be fiscally responsible unless

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Speaker 3: they're spending like a drunken sailor in the Philippines. They

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Speaker 3: want to be fiscally responsible until it's to pay for

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Speaker 3: things like infrastructure. When it was to do shit like

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Speaker 3: Trump's wall, these guys were like blank check twenty four

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Speaker 3: to seven. And now suddenly it's like, my god, I'm

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Speaker 3: not going to spend that much money on cocon hookers.

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Speaker 3: I've got to stop this right now, because well I

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Speaker 3: feel guilty. No, they have no guilt, they have no shame.

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Speaker 3: They are completely nihilist, and they are completely going to

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Speaker 3: run the car over the cliff. And here's the problem

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Speaker 3: for Kevin. Okay, here's why he's doing this. His deal

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Speaker 3: to get through the after the fifteenth vote, his deal

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Speaker 3: with Matt Gates and the Jihati caucus was that he

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Speaker 3: would not vote for a clean debt ceiling. Ever, he

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Speaker 3: would kill the debt ceiling and crash the economy before

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Speaker 3: he'd vote for clean debt ceiling. And they are gonna

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Speaker 3: take his job away if he votes for it. And

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Speaker 3: here's the thing. He loves his job more than he

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Speaker 3: loves anything else in the world. Right. He loves being

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Speaker 3: speaker more than anything. He would be happy to be

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Speaker 3: speaker in the radioactive ruins, eating rats over and open

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Speaker 3: fire than to lose his job. He cannot, in his

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Speaker 3: mind conceive of an action where where he had to

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Speaker 3: be brave enough to say, fuck it, it's not worth

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Speaker 3: keeping this job if I'm gonna crash the economy and

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Speaker 3: destroy the country.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is very republican circa twenty twenty three. Let's

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Speaker 1: talk about Tucker Carlton, who got fired last week. Merry Christmas, rip, yes,

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Speaker 1: thoughts and prayers out? Yeah, I mean I won't, but okay.

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Speaker 3: Want to me and one for my who mees.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about this for a second. Tucker Carlson

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Speaker 1: is out. He has a non compete. I mean, we

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Speaker 1: don't know that he has a non compete because I'm

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Speaker 1: sure he's ND eight on it, but I think we

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Speaker 1: can all assume that he has a non compete. Arena

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Speaker 1: Braganti has a OPO file that she's not afraid to use.

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Speaker 1: What happens now?

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Speaker 3: So first off, let me address Arena Burganti because that

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Speaker 3: is the most overpriced fucking stock in America. Why people

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Speaker 3: are so chicken shit about her is astounding to me.

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Speaker 1: Arena Callreck. Don't call me, okay please.

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Speaker 3: Oh he's so mean, it is so fucking oh. Oh,

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Speaker 3: you're gonna say shit about me in the New York Post.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, the world is ending. You know, these

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Speaker 3: people who live in this fucking bubble who are afraid

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Speaker 3: of this woman, and guess what.

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Speaker 1: Don't call me, Arena, call reck, call wreck.

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Speaker 3: Everything in her fucking OPO file about Tucker Carlson would

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Speaker 3: make him more money and get him more viewers. Fox

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Speaker 3: is not the one in the catbird seat here. They've

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Speaker 3: already started to crash out their ratings. And here's the thing.

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Speaker 3: They think it's Bill O'Reilly, But the world has changed

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Speaker 3: since twenty seventeen. They think, oh, well, we'll just disappear

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Speaker 3: Bill O'Reilly or Megan Kelly or whoever, and they'll never

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Speaker 3: be important again. Listen, that is not how it works.

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Speaker 3: In twenty twenty three, the media landscape has profoundly and

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Speaker 3: fundamentally changed. And so Tucker now legally and contractually, okay,

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Speaker 3: that's the kind of shit that gets negotiated out by

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Speaker 3: mediators and lawyers. Okay, But every time you see Tucker now,

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Speaker 3: you can see these couple little video clips that have

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Speaker 3: come out. You can see that this is a guy

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Speaker 3: that's kind of struggling with the desire for relevance. Skin

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Speaker 3: For Tucker, it's not about the money at this point.

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Speaker 3: And I think there's a part of Tucker that he

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Speaker 3: enjoys the show, voting transgressive things that he always has

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Speaker 3: liked to do and be I was one of the

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Speaker 3: first people out of the gate last week to say,

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Speaker 3: you know, Tucker might want to hear this tune very frequently.

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Speaker 3: Bum bum bum boom boo bom. Imagine for a moment

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Speaker 3: the weird fucking scenario of Tucker Crosson entering in the

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Speaker 3: Republican primary. I gotta tell you, first off, it sucks

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Speaker 3: the remaining liquid out of the desiccated corpse of Ron

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Speaker 3: DeSantis's political career, like right then and there, like Santa's

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Speaker 3: just like turns into a husk and blows away in

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Speaker 3: the dust, Ron in the wind? Oh is Ron okay?

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Speaker 3: This idea of Tucker Crosson running for president, It's absurd,

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Speaker 3: it's insane, it's cuckoo. Yes, And of course, you know

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Speaker 3: what America would never do. We would never elect an adulterous, corrupt, venal,

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Speaker 3: fucking scumbag idiot bewigged reality TV hosts real estate investment

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Speaker 3: scammer named Donald Trump. Either. I don't think anything's impossible

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Speaker 3: in my world anymore. I don't ever count on anything

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Speaker 3: to not go fucking sideways in this country, and so

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Speaker 3: you have to plan out. I mean, the worst thing

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Speaker 3: you can do these days is ignore what the worst

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Speaker 3: case scenario really is.

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Speaker 1: We need to stop the tape here. So are you

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Speaker 1: saying that Tucker Carlson's going to run for president?

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Speaker 3: I'm not saying he's going to run for president. I'm

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Speaker 3: saying you can't write off the possibility, because look, if

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Speaker 3: you're Tucker right now, what do you get if you

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Speaker 3: do a new streaming show or a new a new podcast.

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Speaker 3: I mean, he's not going to do a podcast. He might,

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Speaker 3: but it's not.

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Speaker 1: I actually think he could. I mean, oh, he.

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Speaker 3: Could be very successful. So okay, what's he gonna do?

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Speaker 3: Go work for Ben Shapiro at The Daily Wire get

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Speaker 3: the fuck out of here, right, or or form his

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Speaker 3: own streaming show. Maybe if Elon gives him a streaming

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Speaker 3: channel on Twitter and somehow some fuck aery there. But

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Speaker 3: he's done that now, He's been that guy for years now.

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Speaker 3: I don't know how many years he had a show?

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Speaker 3: What eight seven, eight years, right, whatever it was. If

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Speaker 3: you're Tucker, now, why not go for the big troll.

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Speaker 3: Why not go for the for the real transgression. Why

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Speaker 3: not blow everything the fuck up and run for president.

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Speaker 3: I'm not encouraging it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was gonna say, what is happening here?

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Speaker 3: I'm also not going to write it off, because again,

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Speaker 3: this is a country that has gotten fucked for the

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Speaker 3: last eight years because we kept thinking the worst can't

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Speaker 3: happen twenty sixteen. The time loop of twenty sixteen keeps

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Speaker 3: coming back to bite us on the ass. Oh no,

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Speaker 3: there's no way that Trump could ever beat a real

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Speaker 3: conservative like Jeb Bush. There's no way that Ted Cruz

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Speaker 3: will be defeated by Trump. Ted's a brilliant debate. There's

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Speaker 3: no way Marco can be beaten. And then, of course

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Speaker 3: Hillary will of course be president. I'm picking up my

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Speaker 3: curtains for my office in the West Wing. I've heard

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Speaker 3: that shit from one hundred fucking people. And then they'll

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Speaker 3: rain Trump in. Don't worry, Paul Ryan and Mitch mcconaugh

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Speaker 3: will get control of them, and they'll make him a

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Speaker 3: normal president, and he could never ignore a horrible disease

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Speaker 3: or all the shit I've been told over and over

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Speaker 3: again in the last eight years about why the worst

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Speaker 3: case scenario can't happen, and then it always fucking happens, right,

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Speaker 3: I mean, the one time the worst case scenario didn't

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Speaker 3: happen was in twenty twenty, and the consequences of not

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Speaker 3: having Trump re elected we're still pretty damn dark.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: You can't just say it won't happen, because, frankly, the

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Speaker 3: barriers to entry for running for president are surprisingly fucking low.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think rfk's entire campaign is on Steve

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Speaker 3: Bannon's credit card.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about RFK. So clearly Republicans have decided

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Speaker 1: that they're going to support Marion Williamson and RFK in

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Speaker 1: the hopes that that will somehow derail Biden.

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Speaker 3: And No Labels.

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Speaker 1: I feel like you don't want to talk about no Labels.

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Speaker 3: No. Look, all these groups, okay, every single one of

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Speaker 3: them are backed by a bunch of Republican billionaires. No

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Speaker 3: labels Republican billionaires including Harlan Crowe, Steve Bannon, whatever, weird,

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Speaker 3: like God knows what, Grifty Sugar Daddy bullshit he's got

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Speaker 3: this time, but there seems to always be some random

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Speaker 3: Chinese billionaire or Ecuadorian drug lord or whatever the fuck

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Speaker 3: Steve Bannon gets his money from that he can somehow

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Speaker 3: like con into say this is my secret plan and

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Speaker 3: it works brilliantly. And bye. By the way, just a

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Speaker 3: sidebar on Steve Bannon once more. You notice that Scabby

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Speaker 3: was there with Donald Trump again this week. He was

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Speaker 3: with Donald Trump again this week, like, oh, mister President,

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Speaker 3: So you know you've got no labels. You've got Steve

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Speaker 3: Bannon doing RFK Junior, You've got Mary and Williamson. I'm

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Speaker 3: running because of whatever spirit guy told.

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Speaker 1: Her to my cousin. I'm my first person. That's her

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Speaker 1: spirit guy. Yes, continue, yes.

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Speaker 3: And the absurdity of it is that Democrats should recognize

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Speaker 3: what happens when you put third party candidates on the ballot.

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Speaker 3: Now you're going to ask yourself, wow, was that really

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Speaker 3: happened in America. I'm not going to say I've done it,

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Speaker 3: but I am going to say that if you were

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Speaker 3: to look at a bunch of races in the state

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Speaker 3: of Florida where the Green Party candidates suddenly drew four

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Speaker 3: or five percent away, from the Democrats. I mean I

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Speaker 3: might know who did it. I might know the guys

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Speaker 3: who did it.

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Speaker 1: Right. No, And that's a good point. And I mean

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Speaker 1: I think that's the danger of RFK.

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Speaker 3: Republicans of the ship all the fucking time. Okay, Ralph

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Speaker 3: Nader was a product basically that campaign basically was a

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Speaker 3: Carl Roe flimflam. Yeah, Jesus, Democrats don't understand this. If

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Speaker 3: I were the Democrats, I'm not saying I would do this,

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Speaker 3: but I might consider possibility of doing this is go

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Speaker 3: out in a bunch of states and register the fucking

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Speaker 3: Maga Party on the ballot. Wait, explain the process of

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Speaker 3: registering a political party in the States ranges from extremely

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Speaker 3: difficult to extremely trivial. Right, That's what no labels to do.

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Speaker 3: They're going to the states where they're going to hurt

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Speaker 3: by the most, and a lot of those states also

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Speaker 3: happen to have a pretty easy access to the ballot.

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Speaker 3: So why wouldn't you go out and register the Maga

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Speaker 3: Party in twenty states and you run some fucking moke

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Speaker 3: for president? It's dirty politics, right, And people are like, oh,

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Speaker 3: this isn't Marcus of Queensberry rules. The Marcus of Queensberry

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Speaker 3: rules are all fine and good and they're lovely there

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Speaker 3: and they're wonderful unless you're fighting somebody who wants to

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Speaker 3: gut you and eat your fucking liver.

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Speaker 1: And that's what the other team is doing right now, right,

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Speaker 1: which Republicans do. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's unbelievable.

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Speaker 3: We're in a very consequential moment right now, Molly, and

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Speaker 3: all the joking aside. I mean, the combination of the

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Speaker 3: debt crisis which could blow up the economy, which is

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Speaker 3: what they want, the re emergence of Trump as the

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Speaker 3: main candidate and the Republican Party and giving him basically

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Speaker 3: a longer time window to attack Joe Biden, the presence

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Speaker 3: of these third party candidates and third party ballot lines.

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Speaker 3: We're entering a time where everybody better take this seriously,

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Speaker 3: because the twenty twenty four campaign is in full effect.

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Speaker 3: It is in full swing right now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're forever living in twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 3: It is. I'm telling you. I keep calling it the

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Speaker 3: time loop because I feel like I felt in twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 3: All these people making, all these smart, well intentioned people

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Speaker 3: who keep saying like I can't believe this is happening.

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Speaker 3: You can't, it's happened before.

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Speaker 1: But you do think that Biden can get reelected.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, And I have to say this weekend in DC,

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Speaker 3: I detected from a lot of conversations with reporters before

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Speaker 3: the event, Right, well, Biden's so old, he's not sharp,

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Speaker 3: And I gotta tell you, he walked out into the

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Speaker 3: event and he blew people the fuck away.

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Speaker 1: Every time, you know, the anxiety that people have, and

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Speaker 1: then every time he's great. Yeah, yeah, I.

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Speaker 3: Mean, look, the speech writers got his tone perfectly, but

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Speaker 3: that was only half of it he delivered. Yeah, he

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Speaker 3: was sharp, he was witty, he was funny. He had

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Speaker 3: good timing and cadence and pacing and all that stuff.

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Speaker 3: And wrapping up with the dark Brandon joke of inverting

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Speaker 3: a favorite Republican meme right and Republican talking point of

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Speaker 3: inverting it and owning it was really spot on his

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Speaker 3: performance in that room that night. A lot of people

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Speaker 3: and folks I was talking to in both you know,

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Speaker 3: the press and the political worlds were like, wow, I

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Speaker 3: didn't I didn't know he still had it in him.

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Speaker 1: So stupid They do that every time, though, every time

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Speaker 1: they're like, oh, it's going to be so bad. I

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Speaker 1: was getting texts from a political friend. Oh it's so late.

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Speaker 1: Will he be okay? You know he's fine. He did

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Speaker 1: this State of the Union like you can't fucking believe.

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Speaker 3: He set the fucking hook for the State of the

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Speaker 3: Union and reeled those fuckers in on Social Security. Nobody

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Speaker 3: be included saw it coming.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Thank you Rick Wilson for joining us.

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Speaker 3: You are more than welcome, ass always.

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Speaker 1: Amanda Lipman is the co founder of Run for Something.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to fast Politics, Amanda Lipmn.

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Speaker 4: Thanks for having me, Molly always fun.

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Speaker 1: I am always delighted to have you. Tell us what

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Speaker 1: you're working on right now.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So Run for Something is doing two things right now.

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Speaker 4: As a reminder of Run for Something recruits and supports young,

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Speaker 4: diverse progressives run for local office all across the country.

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Speaker 1: And brag to us about some of your successes.

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Speaker 4: Some of our amazing successes include Representative Zoe zephyr Out

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Speaker 4: in Montana, who is right now belief unbelievable. Senator Meghan

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Speaker 4: Hunt in Nebraska, who has been leading some of the

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Speaker 4: work to the abortione ban there, who's been currently under

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Speaker 4: an ethics complaint because she has a trans kid and

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Speaker 4: therefore has a conflict of interest.

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Speaker 1: So they say, oh, that's right, I remember that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, books like Lena Hidalgo, the Harris County executive, who

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Speaker 4: is unbelievable, a whole bunch of members of the New

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Speaker 4: York State Legislature, Pennsylvania State Legislature, Representative Anna Escamani down

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Speaker 4: in Florida, and Representative Fantry Striscoll who's the minority leader

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Speaker 4: in the Florida State House, who are fighting truth and

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Speaker 4: nail against Ron DeSantis, and nearly eight hundred others who

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Speaker 4: all across the country are just getting shit done in

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Speaker 4: this unbelievable way. So, in short, we're doing two big

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Speaker 4: things right now. One, we are working with candidates for

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty three elections. This is not an off year.

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Speaker 4: There are more elections in twenty twenty three than there

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Speaker 4: were in twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 1: Tell us what those elections look like.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so we've got for share of some state legislative races,

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Speaker 4: including critically in Virginia, we were trying to flip back

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Speaker 4: a chamber and push some real accountability against the Republican governor.

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Speaker 4: We also have tons of municipal races, school board races.

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Speaker 4: There are something like twenty nine thousand school board seats

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Speaker 4: up this year. Only half of those elections are in November.

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Speaker 4: It's election day. We're recording this on Tuesday. It's election

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Speaker 4: day today for ten run for Something candidates in Texas, Ohio, Pennsylvania,

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Speaker 4: and Indiana. So we're working with a bunch of folks

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Speaker 4: running for local races this year. We are also proactively

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Speaker 4: recruiting for twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 1: Oh interesting, so tell us what that looks like.

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Speaker 4: So we are running events to get people thinking we're

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Speaker 4: running for office. We just did some really cool ones

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Speaker 4: running for about school board races in Pennsylvania. We're doing

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Speaker 4: some work in Arkansas to get more people talking about

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Speaker 4: running for office. We're doing work in Texas and Wisconsin

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Speaker 4: and Michigan as well as all other states to get

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Speaker 4: people getting ready to get on the ballot. The earlier

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Speaker 4: we can work with folks, the better. It allows us

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Speaker 4: to really help people set up strong campaigns, to build

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Speaker 4: out their staff in the right way, to raise money

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Speaker 4: in the most efficient way possible, and to make sure

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Speaker 4: that we are finding, you know, honestly the best possible

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Speaker 4: folks to be on the ballot in a year where it's.

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Speaker 1: Never mattered more. How many times does a woman need

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Speaker 1: to be told to run for office? If you're listening

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Speaker 1: to this podcast right now and you are a woman

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Speaker 1: and you're thinking like maybe I should run for office,

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Speaker 1: can you just talk about that for a minute.

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Speaker 4: So it has been said that women need to be

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Speaker 4: asked seven times to run for office, and the joke goes,

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Speaker 4: you ask women seven times, a man is just going

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Speaker 4: to tell you right and then ask you for money.

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Speaker 4: But what we have found more broadly is that especially

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Speaker 4: young women right now, are really eager to step up.

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Speaker 4: They want to solve these problems that women and more

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Speaker 4: broadly other people are facing, and they are fucking furious

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Speaker 4: leadership that they don't feel like is fighting for them.

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Speaker 1: So twenty twenty three, so it's these state races. What

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Speaker 1: are the ones you really where you feel like Democrats

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Speaker 1: could move the needle.

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Speaker 4: Well, we've obviously got the Virginia State legislature, which will

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Speaker 4: be critical, but we are also looking at count as

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Speaker 4: school board races across the country. One thing that really

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Speaker 4: keeps me up at night as a new parent, there

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Speaker 4: is so much aggression coming from the far right. Any

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Speaker 4: school board races in the form of Moms for Liberty

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Speaker 4: in particular, but as well as Americans for Prosperity and

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Speaker 4: a number of other organizations. When I say aggression, I

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Speaker 4: mean like they're putting in money and time and effort

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Speaker 4: into these races, but they're also making them very hostile.

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Speaker 4: They're hard, They are progressing and attacking candidates and scaring

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Speaker 4: people out of them, and that's a tactic.

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Speaker 1: Can you explain to me what Moms for Liberty is

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Speaker 1: and just a little bit about it?

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Speaker 4: Yes, So, Moms for Liberty was an organization that came

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Speaker 4: to be a base out of Florida. Is all both

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Speaker 4: good and terrible things tend to be after In fact,

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Speaker 4: one of the run for Something along we worked with

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Speaker 4: down there of our county, Jennifer Jenkins ran and won

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Speaker 4: against an incumbent school board member in her county. The

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Speaker 4: school board member, after losing, was furious. One of the

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Speaker 4: big issues in that race at the time was both

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Speaker 4: equity and schools, as well as cold policies. Field recall

434
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,920
Speaker 4: this was a really hot topic around schools. After twenty

435
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,240
Speaker 4: twenty one twenty nine two, they decided that one of

436
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,920
Speaker 4: the things they wanted to do was create an organization

437
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:14,640
Speaker 4: to bring moms united against what has become an umbrella

438
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 4: organization to push against LGBT equity and schools, against school safety,

439
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 4: against diverse reading curriculums. They are working to ban books,

440
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,480
Speaker 4: They're working to shut down libraries, They're working to get

441
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:31,119
Speaker 4: teachers fired, and in many places there if they're explicitly

442
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 4: or implicitly encouraging harassment against school board members and candidates

443
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,720
Speaker 4: who are against them. It is funded by Republican mega donors.

444
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,960
Speaker 4: The Florida State Republican Chair has a direct connection to it.

445
00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,240
Speaker 1: Who is the Florida State Republican Chair.

446
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:51,400
Speaker 4: So there's this woman, Bridgitt Ziegler, who is the wife

447
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 4: of one of the vice chairs of the Florida Republican Party.

448
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,720
Speaker 4: She is a co founder and former co director of

449
00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 4: Moms for Liberty, also a school board member. She also

450
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 4: is running as part of the Leadership Institute, which is

451
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,159
Speaker 4: one of like the Koch Brothers funded conservative training programs

452
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,400
Speaker 4: that does basically what Run for Something does, but has

453
00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,040
Speaker 4: been doing it for decades and.

454
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,480
Speaker 1: Has billions of dollars right.

455
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,959
Speaker 4: Of millions of dollars over thirty some odd years. Bridget

456
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,400
Speaker 4: runs their school board Leadership program. So they have been

457
00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 4: doing things like trainings for school board candidates. They had

458
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 4: ted Cruz to potential school board candidates, and they've been

459
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 4: working in partnership with Moms for Liberty. So it is

460
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 4: a full Republican Party effort to take over school boards

461
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 4: from the bottom up and to really put a button

462
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 4: on this. Ralph Reid, who is one of the sort

463
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,600
Speaker 4: of infamous leaders of the quote unquote moral majority of

464
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,159
Speaker 4: far a Christian leader, has said, I would rather have

465
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,360
Speaker 4: a thousand school board members than a single president.

466
00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:48,119
Speaker 1: Wow.

467
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 2: It's powerful.

468
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:50,120
Speaker 4: Can make a difference.

469
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:54,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, wow. So the school board races really are where

470
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 1: it's at. Talk to me about this Virginia Board of Delegates,

471
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,120
Speaker 1: because that I feel like we've been here before with Thisgia.

472
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 4: With Virginia, we absolutely the Virginia State Legislature. We flipped it.

473
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 4: We Democrats, but also run for something candidates in particular

474
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:13,160
Speaker 4: flip the Virginia State House.

475
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,439
Speaker 1: That's right. In twenty eighteen, right, well.

476
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 4: Twenty seventeen we won to the five seats. We flipped it.

477
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 4: In twenty nineteen, Republicans took it back. We have forty

478
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 4: eight seats, they have fifty two. This is really really close.

479
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,000
Speaker 4: In the Virginia State Senate, Democrats have control, but we

480
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 4: need to flip back the state House and we have

481
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,360
Speaker 4: an opportunity to do that this year, which is really exciting.

482
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 4: So we're gonna be working with a bunch of candidates

483
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:38,919
Speaker 4: in Virginia to make sure that we are flipping as

484
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 4: many of these seats as possible.

485
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 1: Let's talk about this twenty twenty four recruitment effort. What

486
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,639
Speaker 1: are you looking for? Who do you need? What states

487
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: tell us about your hope streams, et cetera.

488
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 4: Well, we are looking everywhere. That what makes this work

489
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,199
Speaker 4: so fun, especially at this point in the cycle. The

490
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,239
Speaker 4: earliest filing deadlines for twenty twenty four, some of them

491
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 4: haven't been sad yet but are likely to start hitting

492
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 4: in as soon as December twenty twenty three. Historically, Texas

493
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,360
Speaker 4: campaign filing deadlines have been the December before the election year,

494
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,360
Speaker 4: so it's not too early to start thinking about these races.

495
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 4: We are looking for especially young people, so for us,

496
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 4: that's folks forty and under. We're especially looking for young women,

497
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 4: young people of color, young LGBTQIA folks, but really anyone

498
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 4: who doesn't see themselves reflected in leadership who is pissed

499
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,879
Speaker 4: about a problem or excited about a solution, and who

500
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,160
Speaker 4: sees a way for local office And for us, that's

501
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 4: everything in state house, state Senate and below. Take the

502
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 4: way for them to solve it, to take leadership there.

503
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,400
Speaker 4: And I am especially pumped about some of the work

504
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 4: that we are doing in these states that a lot

505
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 4: of people write off, like I'm really pumped about Indiana,

506
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 4: I'm pumped about Oklahoma.

507
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 1: I want to hear about pumped about Indiana because one

508
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,680
Speaker 1: of the things that's really shaped my most recent podcasting

509
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 1: is that we had a man, Adam Fresh who ran

510
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 1: again and you'll remember, ran against Lauren Boepert. Everyone said,

511
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,880
Speaker 1: you're crazy we had him and he lost by seven

512
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,199
Speaker 1: into votes. So I'm now very excited about seats that

513
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 1: people think you're crazy to be excited about. So let's

514
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 1: talk about Indiana.

515
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,880
Speaker 4: Well, I think you know, Indiana falls into the bucket

516
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,439
Speaker 4: of states where as people will call Barack Obama one

517
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,040
Speaker 4: Indiana in two thousand and eight, it's so crazy, right,

518
00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 4: But there is an open US Senate race in Indiana.

519
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 4: Mike Brown is retiring, and for a while that they

520
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 4: was trying to find a Democrat to run in that race.

521
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 4: And I don't know, if the top of my head

522
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,199
Speaker 4: if we have identified one just yet, but it's the

523
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 4: kind of place where it's really worth building democratic infrastructure.

524
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 4: There are and this has turned so many of these

525
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 4: red states blue cities, and I think we should keep

526
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:45,880
Speaker 4: that in mind because they are going to become more

527
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 4: and more powerful. So we're looking especially in places where

528
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,680
Speaker 4: they're going to be competitive or could be competitive or

529
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,960
Speaker 4: should be competitive US Sunate elections. That includes places like Montana,

530
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 4: where we've now seen an uprising of young people standing

531
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 4: with representative's effort. Police is like Nebraska, where there will

532
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:04,919
Speaker 4: be two US Senate seats on the ballot and a

533
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:08,120
Speaker 4: whole bunch of furious people mad about the bills they've

534
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:12,199
Speaker 4: passed against trans kids. Josh Holly is on the ballot

535
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 4: in Missouri, they have again passed some egregious legislation against

536
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 4: trans people.

537
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 1: There.

538
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 4: It is worth thinking holistically. You know, where's Joe binding

539
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,640
Speaker 4: in a campaign? Probably Pennsylvania, with consin Michigan, Arizona, Georgia.

540
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 4: Great awesome. Where else can we be and what else

541
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 4: can we be doing to lift up the entire ticket

542
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 4: without counting on the top of the ticket to do

543
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 4: the work.

544
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 1: I want to talk about this a little more because

545
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:40,359
Speaker 1: what you're saying is basically that you think that what

546
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:47,479
Speaker 1: happened in Kansas in the twenty tens could happen you

547
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 1: could have this kind of seismic blowback. And you are

548
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: not the first person to come on this podcast to

549
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,120
Speaker 1: talk about a seismic blowback. In fact, a few weeks

550
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 1: ago we had James car on here and he was

551
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 1: talking about the Mississippi governorship.

552
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a perfect example here. People also forget like

553
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 4: Kansas has a democratic governor, Luisiana has a democratic governor.

554
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 4: Kentucky had a democratic state legislature as recently as twenty

555
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 4: sixteen and still has a democratic governor. These are places

556
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 4: where democrats can win if it's the right democrat and

557
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 4: if they're willing to invest in it.

558
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 1: This Mississippi governor's race is really on the horizon. It's

559
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 1: a candidate called Presley. He is relative of Elvis Presley.

560
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 1: Talk to me about that a little bit.

561
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 4: I think it's a really compelling race. That's a great candidate,

562
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 4: and he's not just like the relative at Elvis Presley experience.

563
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 4: He's the Mississippi Public Service Commits Center.

564
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: He's the highest elected Democrat in the state right now.

565
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 1: Just yeah, like in Florida where Nikki Fried was the

566
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 1: AG chair.

567
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 4: This is what you want. You want a Democrat who

568
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 4: has roots, who has ties to the community. It also

569
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 4: helps that he has a name. A fun fact about

570
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 4: Brandon Presley is when he ran in the early two

571
00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 4: thousands in one office at twenty three, he was the

572
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 4: youngest mayor in Mississippi's history. Big deal. Kind of folks

573
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 4: who love to work with had run for something, been

574
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 4: around in the early two thousands. It's the kind of

575
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 4: race that we shouldn't ran off just because it seems

576
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 4: like a long shot. And it's certainly the kind of

577
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 4: place that I hope the candidate that Presley is able

578
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 4: to keep it really local. You know, governor's races in particular,

579
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 4: it can be about the problems the communities themselves are facing.

580
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 4: It's easy to keep them centered. So I hope that

581
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 4: he's able to do that successfully.

582
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 1: Can you tell me something you're seeing that other people

583
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: aren't at the state level.

584
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 4: Well, one of the things that I think is really

585
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 4: exciting about the twenty twenty four races and twenty twoty

586
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 4: three writ large is that we are building on the

587
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 4: work we've done since twenty sixteen and twenty seventeen, that

588
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 4: none of that was for not so whether it's black

589
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 4: quoters matter.

590
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's a great organization. Sorry, go on, yeah,

591
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 1: or state.

592
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 4: Parties or county parties, like all of these folks who've

593
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 4: been doing this work for a while. They did to

594
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 4: register black voters in twenty twenty or twenty twenty two

595
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 4: will also help twenty twenty four. It's why I think

596
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 4: it's so important that this year Democrats can't take our

597
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 4: foot off the gas. I've hurt for too many people

598
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 4: who have said, oh, I'm just hired of politics. They

599
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 4: don't want to spend any more money, i don't want

600
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 4: to pay any more attention. I'm just let me have

601
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 4: a break. Come back to me next year. It's like, no,

602
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 4: we don't have the luxury of that. That's not how

603
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 4: this works, because if we'll lose momentum, we can lose

604
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 4: it all.

605
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 1: Yeah. The school boards seem really I mean, that is

606
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 1: something where you really could end up like your school

607
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: could end up being completely crazy.

608
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you're not going to know it until it's

609
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 4: too late for you to get involved. Like that's actually

610
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 4: the really scary part about school boards is it is

611
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,960
Speaker 4: often too late to feel the challenger, or get on

612
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 4: the ballot, or stop or even like contest some of

613
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 4: these races until the absolutely bananas people have geared themselves

614
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 4: that revealed themselves to be as bad shit as they are.

615
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 4: So that's the thing that we really have to think

616
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 4: about in terms of as an organization, can we flood

617
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 4: this zone good really good people running for these races.

618
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: So do you think I mean, is it fair to

619
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: say if you have a kid in public school you

620
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: should run for school board?

621
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,959
Speaker 4: Absolutely, if you have a kid in public school, if

622
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 4: you're thinking about having a kid in public school, even

623
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 4: if you haven't, and because you made that decision for

624
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 4: a particular reason, like that's also a compelling part of

625
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 4: a campaign. I would say it's definitely worth noting that

626
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 4: the median school board member is fifty nine years old.

627
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 4: We are especially looking for younger parents, who are people

628
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 4: who currently have kids. That's often retirees who run for

629
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 4: school board and are a little bit distanced from the

630
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 4: work itself. But that's not to say that anyone and

631
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 4: everyone who cares about their schools, which is ultimately a

632
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 4: way of saying I care about my community, whether I

633
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 4: have a kid in the system or not. I should

634
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 4: get engaged.

635
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: Talk to me about like sort of the races that

636
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: you think our listeners should be like really supporting, you know,

637
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: giving money too. I mean what, like, what's a lot

638
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 1: of bang for your boy?

639
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 4: I think you can't go wrong engaging with whatever the

640
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 4: local races near you. I know it's not always a

641
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 4: helpful answers. People are like, you know, I can't really

642
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 4: like flip it. It's like one you don't know. The

643
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 4: best way to future the other side can take control,

644
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 4: or to to let them keep holding control is to

645
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 4: not engage with it. I think it's really important important

646
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 4: that people invest in the places they live. The cool

647
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 4: thing about it is when you do, and then the

648
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 4: people you help elect or people you prevent from winning,

649
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 4: make a difference, you get to live the results of that.

650
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 4: You get to bake down the bike path that your

651
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 4: elected official helped open, you get to go regress that

652
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 4: they made possible, or send your kids to the school

653
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 4: that you helped fund more teachers for. I think that's

654
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 4: really special and it creates sort of a virtuous cycle

655
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,719
Speaker 4: of wanting to stay engaged because you see why it matters,

656
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 4: which is not to say you also shouldn't send money

657
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 4: to state parties and groups that organize young people in

658
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 4: communities of color all across the country. But investing where

659
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 4: you live, you like, really can't go wrong.

660
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: That's a great answer. Do you have any hope for

661
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: this Florida State Party right now? Like, I mean, where

662
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: are the sort of states where Democrats are kind of

663
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 1: rebuilding and where you have some hope there?

664
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 4: Well, I think the state party, you know, there's nowhere,

665
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,320
Speaker 4: nowhere works to go. But I think there's some incredible

666
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 4: Democrats in Florida. Fantry's Driscoll, Anna Escamani, Maxwell Frost, Ashley

667
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 4: Gant who are really amazing. And even more local, there's

668
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 4: some incredible school board members across Florida who are showing

669
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 4: what fighting really looks, like Maria Salamanca and Orange County,

670
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 4: Luisa Santos and Lucy Abiaz Geller in Miami Dade. These

671
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 4: are amazing, And you'll know, it's mostly women, mostly people

672
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 4: of color, who are really unafraid to fight for their values.

673
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 4: And I think that's what we need moving forward. There

674
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 4: are so many state parties across the country that are

675
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 4: sort of winnowing on the vine, unfortunately, and the way

676
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 4: to rescue them is to invest in them. We cannot

677
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 4: abandon this critical infrastructure, especially going into a national electioneer.

678
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really good point. And there really are

679
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 1: volunteer opportunities on the state party level.

680
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 4: Too, totally, and especially as you live in a place

681
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,359
Speaker 4: where the presidential campaign is not likely to have as

682
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 4: much infrastructure. But your doors knocked for your city council race,

683
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,839
Speaker 4: your school board race, your state house race will help

684
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 4: the full ticket, right, it all helps. It doesn't matter

685
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 4: necessarily what Democrats you are going to.

686
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,879
Speaker 1: The doors for. Will you remind me of that statistic

687
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,720
Speaker 1: that you like to quote or that you have quoted

688
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 1: in the past with me about how meaningful it is

689
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 1: to have someone run on the ticket even if they

690
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: don't win in a red state.

691
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 4: So we have this theory called reverse code tails, which

692
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,879
Speaker 4: is basically that running people locally, whether or not they

693
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 4: win or lose, those campaigns have a really galvanizing effort

694
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 4: in those communities. They bring voters out, they bring volunteers out,

695
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 4: and they help volks up the ticket either win by

696
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,760
Speaker 4: bigger margins or lose by a little bit less, both

697
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 4: of which is progress towards eventually flipping in some places,

698
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 4: and I think especially in places where you're thinking about,

699
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 4: like rural Pennsylvania or rural Michigan or the redder parts

700
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 4: of Wisconsin. In some places, the local Democrat is just

701
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 4: looking to move the margin from seventy thirty to sixty forty. Right,

702
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 4: That's okay, and that's how you eventually get to fifty

703
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 4: to fifty. You don't go from seventy thirty to fifty

704
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,320
Speaker 4: to fifty overnight. You do it by losing by lass

705
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 4: a little bit each time. And that I think is

706
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 4: really about thinking long term. You know, we got to

707
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 4: look beyond the singular election cycle. Well, only winning is

708
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 4: winning eventually, in order to win big, we do have

709
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 4: to lose a little bit first. So it's not that

710
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 4: folks are sacrificial lambs. It's that they're in service of

711
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 4: a broader, longer term mission.

712
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 1: So good, Amanda Liman. I hope you'll come back anytime.

713
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 4: Molly, thanks for having me.

714
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:51,919
Speaker 1: Hi, it's Mollie, and I am wildly excited that for

715
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: the first time Fast Politics the show you're listening to

716
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,800
Speaker 1: right now is going to have merch for sale over

717
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: at shop dot fastpoliticspod dot com. You can now buy shirts, hats, hoodies,

718
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 1: and toe bags with our incredible designs. We've heard your

719
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 1: cries to spread the word about our podcast and get

720
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:22,720
Speaker 1: a tow bag with my adorable Leo the Rescue Puppy

721
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 1: on it. And now you can grab this merchandise only

722
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 1: at shop dot fastpoliticspod dot com. Thanks for your support.

723
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 1: Ben Terris is a reporter at The Washington Post and

724
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 1: author of The Big Break, The Gamblers Party, Animals and

725
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 1: True Believers Trying to Win in Washington Wall America Loses

726
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 1: its Mind. Welcome to Fast Politics, ben Terris, thanks so

727
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 1: much for having me talk about the book first, and

728
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 1: then we'll talk about poor Shawn mguilwack.

729
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 2: Sure, I have a book coming out. It's my first book.

730
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 2: Could be my last book, because writing a book is

731
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 2: incredibly hard. It turns out, and it nearly killed me.

732
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 2: It took two years, and I'm very very excited about it,

733
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 2: very proud of it. It's called The Big Break, The

734
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 2: Gamblers Party, Animals and True Believers trying to Win in

735
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 2: Washington while America loses its mind, and it comes out

736
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 2: on June sixth, and it's a Washington book. It's kind

737
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,800
Speaker 2: of you know, we've all seen and read and sometimes loved,

738
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 2: sometimes hated all these Trump books that have come out,

739
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 2: and this is sort of like a Donald Trump book

740
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 2: without him being in it really at all. It's a

741
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 2: book about the Washington that he left behind, the Washington

742
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 2: that he might be returning to, a wild cast of

743
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 2: characters behind the scenes, folks, people you've heard of, people

744
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 2: you haven't heard of, all kind of trying to make

745
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,439
Speaker 2: it work in this new new normal. And I got

746
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 2: to tell you, having been and reported in Washington for

747
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 2: you know, ten twelve years now, it even shocked me

748
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:56,359
Speaker 2: the kinds of stuff that I was learning about and

749
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 2: reporting on, as I know, really delved into the process.

750
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 1: Okay, you can't say that, because now I'm going to

751
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 1: ask you, here's this is good training. What you don't

752
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 1: want to do in an interview. What were the things

753
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 1: that shocked you?

754
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 2: Well? I mean, you know, this excerpt that I had

755
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 2: come out in the Washington Post out Sean mcley is

756
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:18,239
Speaker 2: a good example. This was a story about a Democratic

757
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 2: operative named Sean who was this real rising star Democrat

758
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 2: and he had a polling and think tank organization that

759
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 2: he started in twenty eighteen called Data for Progress. And

760
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 2: you know, he was a hot shot, like he was

761
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 2: really on the rise. His polls were getting tweeted out

762
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 2: by the White House. He was getting meetings with Chuck

763
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 2: Schumer and his staff and going to the White House

764
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,319
Speaker 2: for meeting Apparently Joe Biden would cite his polling and

765
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 2: you know in private meetings. And he was also this

766
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 2: real showman like character and so for me, I thought, Okay,

767
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:50,359
Speaker 2: this is a guy who is kind of taking some

768
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 2: of the Trump lessons and using it on the Democratic side.

769
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 2: He's quotable, he you know, likes to say things that

770
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,320
Speaker 2: get him in the newspapery. Was in a pro pried

771
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 2: a lot of the time with his jokes, but like

772
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 2: people kind of dug it because he was good at

773
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 2: what he did. And so in spending time with him,

774
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 2: I got to learn about his gambling habit, which started

775
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 2: at poker nights. For me, I would go to his

776
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 2: poker nights.

777
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 1: Oh, he went to his poker knights.

778
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:19,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. And the gambling habit wasn't just poker. He would

779
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 2: bet kind of pretty big sums of money on politics,

780
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 2: including on races that he was polling, and for me,

781
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 2: I was like.

782
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 1: I'm a cynical guy.

783
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 2: I'm a cynical guy, but like seeing the Pete Rose

784
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 2: of politics in action and kind of bragging about it. Oh,

785
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 2: I'm gonna win fourteen thousand dollars on this chan Tell

786
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 2: Brown Nina Turner race. If Nina Turner loses, even though

787
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 2: he was doing polling for Nina Turner super Pack.

788
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: That seems really bad.

789
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. When I heard that, I was like, man, why

790
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,359
Speaker 2: is nobody nobody's questioning this. People around the poker table

791
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:51,959
Speaker 2: just were kind of like, oh, like, what other bets

792
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 2: you got? And some people were making best with them.

793
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 2: It was kind of a cynical scene.

794
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 1: Right, So when you were reporting this, you're embedded, and

795
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: then the scandal breaks later, did you have a sense

796
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 1: of because micla he was brought down by a number

797
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 1: of scandals, is that fair?

798
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, that's right. And so I did not

799
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 2: know any of that was going to break, right, So

800
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 2: at first, when I'm reporting on him, I have this

801
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 2: kind of story of his gambling and betting on politics,

802
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 2: and I feel like I sort of have it to

803
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 2: myself as a reporter, which is a great place to

804
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:25,800
Speaker 2: be in a way, it's like I'm going to report

805
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 2: of something that nobody's ever heard about, and it's going

806
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 2: to change the way that people think about politics to

807
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 2: a degree, or though people will be surprised by it,

808
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 2: or people be amused by it, or people will be

809
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:36,320
Speaker 2: angered by it, and it will sort of be my story.

810
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 2: What happened with Sean is his entire world kind of

811
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 2: imploded by the end of the year. And you know,

812
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 2: his rides included teaming up with Gabe Bankman Freed, the

813
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 2: brother of Sam Bankman Freed, the crypto former billionaire. He

814
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 2: was kind of helping advise the bank Men Freed on

815
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:57,959
Speaker 2: how to, you know, on how to spend their money

816
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 2: in Washington, among other things, what can mandidates to endorse

817
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 2: and having the ear of people like that can make

818
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 2: you very powerful in Washington. The gambling was a story too.

819
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 2: By the end of the year, what happened was he

820
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 2: got on the wrong side of a number of people.

821
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:16,720
Speaker 2: Sam Bankman Freed had his implosion, a lot of Sean's

822
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 2: bets went the wrong way, and all of that combined

823
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,279
Speaker 2: kind of forced the situation at Data for Progress where

824
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 2: all of these young staffers that when I first got

825
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 2: to know them, really looked up to Sean as kind

826
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 2: of a big brother figure, somebody who could inspire them

827
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:37,520
Speaker 2: politically and get them inside the room in Washington and

828
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,320
Speaker 2: just danced their careers and made them think about politics

829
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:41,839
Speaker 2: in a different way. And they all kind of thought

830
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 2: into his project. When all of these things happened, at

831
00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 2: the end of the year, it just became unsustainable and

832
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:51,280
Speaker 2: there was basically a staff coup and he was fired.

833
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 2: They found out, you know, even more details later about

834
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 2: things he was doing that they did not like as

835
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 2: a organization, and so at first she has to kind

836
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:02,800
Speaker 2: of negotiate for a severance, and by the end of

837
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:04,839
Speaker 2: the year they just fired him on the spot. And

838
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 2: you know, he's out there somewhere now, probably trying to

839
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,280
Speaker 2: plot a comeback. But it's it's a pretty pretty steep

840
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 2: fall for somebody like Sean.

841
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,879
Speaker 1: So I want to like just pull back for a minute,

842
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 1: because I feel like this is a larger issue. We

843
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 1: see it's not a larger issue, but there certainly is

844
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 1: a fair amount of, I want to say, polling problems.

845
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 1: I'm going to be generous here. You know, every time

846
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 1: I have a polster on this podcast. I say you

847
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 1: guys are wrong about this, wrong about that, and they

848
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 1: say things like, well, you're not reading the polls, right.

849
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:44,280
Speaker 1: Poles are a vibe some of Sean's polls we always

850
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,280
Speaker 1: thought on this podcast seemed a little optimistic.

851
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 2: So my big takeaway from my year and a half

852
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 2: with Sean and also just kind of embedded in Washington

853
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 2: in general, is that nobody really knows anything. Everybody in

854
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 2: Washington makes money and gets influenced by convincing people that

855
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 2: they kind of have the secret, they know how things

856
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 2: are going to play out, they know how to couch it.

857
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:10,959
Speaker 2: Nobody ever says it's a guarantee. They always have ways

858
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 2: to say. Look, if you read the poll, it means that,

859
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 2: like you know, ninety percent chance that so and so

860
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:17,359
Speaker 2: could win, the other thing happens. It doesn't mean we're

861
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 2: wrong because ten percent is still a possibility. Like you

862
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 2: don't understand probability, and maybe I don't, But also I

863
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 2: feel like there's a lot of people who make a

864
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 2: living by convincing people they know things and really nobody does.

865
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 2: Maybe they have a slightly better chance at understanding how

866
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 2: the electorate is going to go based on their data,

867
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:40,840
Speaker 2: but really this last midterm was so confusing and so

868
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 2: unexpected that you'd like to think that people would chill

869
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 2: out on their confidence about what they can and can't predict.

870
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:52,399
Speaker 2: But also, Washington has been doing this forever. Nobody really

871
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 2: saw Obama coming, nobody really saw Trump coming, and yet

872
00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 2: everybody still claims to know what's what I mean. I

873
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 2: spent the beginning of my time at these poker knights,

874
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,959
Speaker 2: and I remember Sean talking about Donald Trump is cooked,

875
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 2: He's a cook turkey. He said he's ever going to

876
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:07,880
Speaker 2: run again, He's ever going to win again. And that

877
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 2: might be right, but he's going to run again. He's

878
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,319
Speaker 2: certainly running, and he could win. I mean, anyone who

879
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 2: says otherwise is you know, what are they basing that on?

880
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 2: It's nothing.

881
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:19,799
Speaker 1: I think that's a really good point that there's a

882
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:23,919
Speaker 1: sort of culture of like convincing people, you know, sort

883
00:44:23,960 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 1: of almost the unknowable right.

884
00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 2: That's right. And also I feel like a lot of

885
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 2: people in that industry are very good at explaining away

886
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 2: how they were wrong. So I don't think, you know,

887
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 2: any of us would disagree that. Right before the midterms,

888
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 2: everyone seemed to be saying Republicans are going to have

889
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,400
Speaker 2: a red wave right, and it turned out not to

890
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 2: quite be that way, and so therefore the people who

891
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 2: said that are wrong. And yet if you talk to them,

892
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 2: there's so many ways that they can explain the ways

893
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 2: in which they were right. Oh well, we got the

894
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 2: actual electorate correct, predicted how many people in America were

895
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,480
Speaker 2: basically you were going to vote for Republicans versus Democrats.

896
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 2: We just didn't have it geographically figured out. And it's like, okay,

897
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 2: well what does that do for me? I don't really care.

898
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 2: What I thought going into terms was everybody saying the

899
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 2: Republicans are going to have these huge games everywhere, and

900
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 2: then when it didn't happen, I sort of feel like

901
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,160
Speaker 2: people should say, my bad, I got itron instead of

902
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 2: showing all the ways in which they were technically right,

903
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 2: because being technically right, like, who cares?

904
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 1: Tell us what other Washington weirdnesses you've observed.

905
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 2: When I set out to write this book, the idea

906
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 2: was to try to answer the question, how did Trump

907
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:37,760
Speaker 2: change Washington?

908
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 1: Right?

909
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:42,239
Speaker 2: It was a very chaotic obviously four year presidency. It

910
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 2: was chaotic during the election. Before that, people really got

911
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 2: to know Washington or what they thought Washington was during

912
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 2: these years. You know, like people in America knew the

913
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 2: names of counselors to the President, like Kelly and Conway,

914
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 2: or you know, the Commerce Secretary and Wilbur Ross. These

915
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 2: were characters all of a sudden in the national drama,

916
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,880
Speaker 2: and so people thought they understood Washington. This book is

917
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 2: sort of a look at the Washington below that surface.

918
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 2: And I think it's more interesting because it's just the

919
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,879
Speaker 2: people who are always around. There's lots of drama. There's

920
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:17,880
Speaker 2: people who have these really serious professional and personal relationships

921
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 2: at break because of the Trump presidency. There's stories of

922
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:24,359
Speaker 2: people who are desperately trying to make change in spite

923
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 2: of it or because of it, and just the headwinds

924
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 2: that you're up against when a place like Washington that

925
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:36,360
Speaker 2: is often not really interested in change. So basically, I

926
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 2: spent time with a cast of I don't know twelve

927
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:42,240
Speaker 2: people or so, and I feel like it's a pretty

928
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,240
Speaker 2: broad slice of Washington.

929
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:46,800
Speaker 1: Tell us who the people are.

930
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 2: Well, I can tell you that Matt Slapp is a character.

931
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 1: Oh yes, you really got people right before they crashed.

932
00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:00,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. That was also not something I expected. A leged

933
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 2: groping scandal that Matt Slap found himself in by the

934
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 2: end of the year that is in the book. Did

935
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 2: not expect it. Also, just to be clear, I did

936
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 2: not have that information before it was published. It wasn't

937
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:13,839
Speaker 2: like I knew about a groping incident and sat on it.

938
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 2: I would have reported it in the paper if I

939
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 2: had known at the time. But after I was reported

940
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 2: it was something I continued to report. The Matt Slap story,

941
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,759
Speaker 2: A big part of that thread is actually not even

942
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,759
Speaker 2: about that scandal. It's about him and his right hand

943
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:29,279
Speaker 2: man at Sea Pack, the organization.

944
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 1: That conservative political action.

945
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 2: That's right, and he and Matt Slap is the head

946
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 2: of that. He had a spokesman for years. They were

947
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 2: so close that when the spokesman was Ian, when Ian

948
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 2: was having a family, he thought about having Matt and

949
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 2: Mercedes Slap as godparents.

950
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:45,720
Speaker 1: That's how close they got.

951
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:48,360
Speaker 2: But over the course of the last couple of years,

952
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 2: really their relationship prad into white where now you know

953
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 2: they're not even speaking, and so stories like that I

954
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:56,720
Speaker 2: feel like capture this moment.

955
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 4: You know.

956
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 2: It's a story about the personal dramas that that happened

957
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 2: in Washington, about the political dramas that happened about the

958
00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,880
Speaker 2: waves in which they are connected. Right, People don't just

959
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 2: break up because of politics, and people's politics don't change

960
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 2: just because of politics. Sometimes it's personal, Sometimes it's petty

961
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:20,280
Speaker 2: and about workplace drama or about weird situations at Seapack.

962
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 2: And I feel like that story, if you read that,

963
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 2: you're going to kind of understand some of the psychodrama

964
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 2: happening within the Republican Party right now.

965
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,320
Speaker 1: And so that's fascinating. A match lap, so you really

966
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 1: did find yourself in the middle of drama.

967
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 2: Yes, I was always a little surprised by the access

968
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:40,759
Speaker 2: some of these people gave me. I mean, I went

969
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 2: to Seapac and I went to match Slaps after Seapack

970
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:45,760
Speaker 2: presidential sweep.

971
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 1: Did you get COVID there?

972
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 2: You know, I didn't get COVID there?

973
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:51,839
Speaker 1: What year was it? You didn't go the year when

974
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:52,840
Speaker 1: the guy had COVID?

975
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 2: Well I went last year, So presumably everybody had COVID, right, okay,

976
00:48:57,600 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 2: but nobody was testing for it really, and somehow I

977
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:01,719
Speaker 2: didn't get I kind of just assumed they'd have like

978
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 2: all the varieties there, like you could go into the

979
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 2: bar and order, like you know, the first strain of COVID.

980
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 2: But no, it didn't hit me somehow.

981
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it is interesting to me that we're

982
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 1: talking about this journalist and the murderer Janet Malcolm. You know,

983
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 1: the thing where the subjects cannot resist the journalist.

984
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, Washington is filled with people like that.

985
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 2: To be honest, take Sean, he kind of was of

986
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 2: this all preciss good press mentality.

987
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 3: Right.

988
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 2: Well, here's a good example of that. He made a

989
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:37,759
Speaker 2: joke to me once on September tenth that nobody understood

990
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,840
Speaker 2: the power of earned media better than Osama bin Lauden.

991
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:44,760
Speaker 1: Yikes, because I have a teenager who might make that joke,

992
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 1: and I would then take them aside and be like

993
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:50,440
Speaker 1: you guys like k not gol.

994
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 2: And I'd like to think your teenager probably wouldn't make

995
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 2: that joke in front of a journalist on the record, right,

996
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 2: all right, you know that joke just to explain it

997
00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:58,880
Speaker 2: to people who don't get earned media as one of

998
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 2: these political jargonterns for like free press. And basically what

999
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 2: he's saying is nobody was able to get more press

1000
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 2: attention than Osama bin Laden and do more with it.

1001
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:10,759
Speaker 2: And when he made that joke, his press person was

1002
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 2: right next to me and she was like, you know,

1003
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 2: she sighed, and she's like, you know, it's gotten to

1004
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 2: the point where he says so many controversial things that

1005
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 2: journalists like won't even print them anymore, Jesus, because it's

1006
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 2: like it's not even worth it, you know. He called

1007
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:24,799
Speaker 2: himself a Clarence Thomas Democrat because he believed that more

1008
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:27,280
Speaker 2: money in politics was a good thing for his party,

1009
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 2: his bank account. He said, Lee Atwater was his political idol,

1010
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,360
Speaker 2: lee Atwater being the you know, infamous Republican strategist to

1011
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:38,400
Speaker 2: encourage Republicans to kind of dog whistle their racism instead

1012
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 2: of being blatant about it.

1013
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really bad, he once said to.

1014
00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 2: Me, not even to me, he said to a whole

1015
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 2: poker table. All the zoomers that work for him have

1016
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 2: long COVID and are bisexual, and that he believes that

1017
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 2: long COVID is a real thing when someone who isn't

1018
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:56,360
Speaker 2: bisexual has it. Like he just would say things because

1019
00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:59,319
Speaker 2: he thought all press attention was good press attention, and

1020
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 2: for him it was for a while. It really helped

1021
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:04,279
Speaker 2: him rise. But the same thing that can help you

1022
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 2: rise in Washington can also be the cause of your downfall, right, And.

1023
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:12,240
Speaker 1: I think that's a really good point. Thank you, Ben.

1024
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:14,520
Speaker 1: I hope you'll come back anytime.

1025
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:15,359
Speaker 2: I'd love to come back.

1026
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:23,759
Speaker 3: No, Rick Wilson, Yes, Molly Jung Fast.

1027
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 1: I know mine. What is this saying that has your

1028
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:29,000
Speaker 1: moment of fucker.

1029
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 3: Certain cable networks not learning the lessons of the past

1030
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 3: and putting Donald Trump on their air in a way

1031
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 3: where he will go on the TV and lie like

1032
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:38,200
Speaker 3: a fucking rug for half an hour.

1033
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, you want to hear mine.

1034
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 3: Go.

1035
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:44,760
Speaker 1: You go to a party. Yeah, and this crazy person

1036
00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:47,080
Speaker 1: is following you around all weekend.

1037
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:49,799
Speaker 3: I've been to that party and seen that crazy. I mean,

1038
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 3: I gotta be honest. When I saw her see you

1039
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 3: because I looked back on that when we were all

1040
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 3: walking to the hill. I saw you like twenty people

1041
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 3: back from him. I raven at you, and I saw

1042
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:00,879
Speaker 3: her like behind you, and I'm like, oh my god,

1043
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 3: what is that a fucking like gaunt valkyrie.

1044
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 1: Rah. I'm just telling you that scream is real. All right, guys, Thanks.

1045
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 3: Rick, thanks for having me. As always.

1046
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

1047
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:22,000
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to hear the best minds

1048
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you

1049
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend

1050
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.