WEBVTT - NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte Talks Getting NATO Into 'Better Shape'

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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<v Speaker 2>Following his meeting moments ago in the Oval Office with

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<v Speaker 2>President Trump is NATO's Secretary General, Mark Ruta, Mister Secretary General,

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<v Speaker 2>Welcome back to Bloomberg TV and Radio. It means a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of yourself. Take your time at what I know

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<v Speaker 2>is a very busy day. Absolutely, we saw you in there.

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<v Speaker 2>We were watching the hole back and forth with yourself,

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<v Speaker 2>the President, and a gaggle of reporters. In the Oval Office.

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<v Speaker 2>You had everything from whiteboards to stats to make the

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<v Speaker 2>argument to President Trump. Did you manage to soften some

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<v Speaker 2>of the edges when it comes to Trump and the Alliance?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I mean what I think is important is to

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<v Speaker 1>be fair, and fairness dictates that this president is really

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<v Speaker 1>doing a huge amount of work to get NATO in

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<v Speaker 1>better shape. He had a big success last year in

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<v Speaker 1>the Hague with the five percent spending commitment. But what

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<v Speaker 1>I wanted to show to him tonight is that over

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<v Speaker 1>the last ten years since forty five, if an out

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<v Speaker 1>tramp forty seven. We see this secularly English on European

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<v Speaker 1>and Canadian allies spending more, but also but it comes

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<v Speaker 1>to the year on year increase forty seven and twenty

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<v Speaker 1>to twenty five, almost twenty percent more spending, which is

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<v Speaker 1>of course because of Russia and the threat and the

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<v Speaker 1>war in Ukraine, but also very much because this president

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<v Speaker 1>is quite forcefully encouraging allies to spend more. And I

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<v Speaker 1>think it is fair to share that with him.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, in mister Secretary General, it's not just the president,

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<v Speaker 3>it's others in his administration as well. The Defense Secretary

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<v Speaker 3>Pete Hegsett set in Brussels recently that the US would

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<v Speaker 3>stop paying NATO dues if the allies don't meet defense

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<v Speaker 3>spending targets. And your understanding is this just the long

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<v Speaker 3>term five percent target that matters, or has has this

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<v Speaker 3>administration set out to you that there needs to be

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<v Speaker 3>more interim goals met in the short term.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, but we are seeing already with the almost twenty

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<v Speaker 1>percent increase that you are reaching the mes interims of

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<v Speaker 1>subsorption capacity. You can only each year on year spend

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<v Speaker 1>so much more because you have to find and higher

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<v Speaker 1>and contract and managment in a uniform. Obviously, you have

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<v Speaker 1>to work very hard, and the US is doing that,

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<v Speaker 1>Europe is doing that on expanding the output of the

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<v Speaker 1>defense industrial base at a bitch at the moment on

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<v Speaker 1>both types of the Atlantic it's simply not producing enough.

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<v Speaker 1>So the pennsident is now meeting with the bosses of

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<v Speaker 1>the big defense industrial companies in the United States to

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<v Speaker 1>again make that argument. But then given dead background, spending

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<v Speaker 1>almost twenty percent more means that he not only got

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<v Speaker 1>to promise in the Hague, but at alash are now delivering.

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<v Speaker 1>Take Germany spending twice as much in twenty twenty nine

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<v Speaker 1>as it did in twenty twenty one, more than a

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<v Speaker 1>half and fifty billion by twenty twenty nine. These are

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<v Speaker 1>really big numbers and a great success.

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<v Speaker 2>I want to ask you about Ukraine, Secretary General and

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<v Speaker 2>what you heard from President Trump today. It was shocking

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<v Speaker 2>for a lot of people to see massive black clouds

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<v Speaker 2>of smoke pluming over Saint Petersburg. We know that Ukraine

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<v Speaker 2>is reaching deeper into Russian territory and making remarkable use

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<v Speaker 2>of its advanced drone technology. Does President Trump believe Ukraine

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<v Speaker 2>can win this war militarily?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, let me not speak for President Trump because I

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<v Speaker 1>think he should do that himself, but obviously be discussed Ukraine,

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<v Speaker 1>and you heard this also in the public part of

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<v Speaker 1>the meeting with the media in the Oval Office that

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<v Speaker 1>he acknowledged that Ukraine is doing well on the battlefield,

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<v Speaker 1>is doing well in terms of hitting some of the

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<v Speaker 1>critical infrastructure in Russia. I really think that over the

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<v Speaker 1>last three to six months, Ukraine is doing much better.

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<v Speaker 1>And when you look at the amount of Russians getting

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<v Speaker 1>killed or seriously wounded, we are now reaching numbers of

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<v Speaker 1>thirty to thirty five thousand. When you look at the

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<v Speaker 1>war in Vietnam in fourteen years the United States lost,

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<v Speaker 1>Russia is now losing in five weeks what the United

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<v Speaker 1>States lost in fourteen years in Vietnam. Russia's losing now

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<v Speaker 1>in three weeks what Russians was in ten years in

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<v Speaker 1>Afghanistan in the nineteen eighties. These are staggering numbers. So

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<v Speaker 1>as you saw in the public part of the meeting,

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<v Speaker 1>the President Framuch acknowledging the fact that the Ukrainians are

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<v Speaker 1>doing so much better also thanks to US support, which

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<v Speaker 1>is they're paid for the European and Canadian allies and

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<v Speaker 1>other key helped the US is providing.

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<v Speaker 2>Well.

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<v Speaker 3>As we consider what Ukraine has been able to accomplish

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<v Speaker 3>in the longer range strikes, we are seeing into Russian territory,

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<v Speaker 3>Secretary General, have any of the NATO allies expressed some

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<v Speaker 3>concern about that, the idea that it could spark further

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<v Speaker 3>Russian retaliation and rope NATO countries into it.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I think we should start by seeing what happened

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<v Speaker 1>in twenty twenty two. By the way, in twenty fourteen

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<v Speaker 1>when they grabbed Crimea and then in February twenty twenty

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<v Speaker 1>two when they started to full onslaughts on Ukraine. This

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<v Speaker 1>was unprovoked. There was absolutely no reason for the Russians

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<v Speaker 1>to do this. So it's only fair for Ukraine to

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<v Speaker 1>be able to defend itself. And they do this with

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<v Speaker 1>help from the best, but also because of their own ingenuity.

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<v Speaker 1>They're extremely successful in constantly updating the long technology and

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<v Speaker 1>the end time DeLong technology, staying ahead of the Russians

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<v Speaker 1>and therefore really being successful on the battlefield.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, it's really something we watched you very closely in

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<v Speaker 2>the Oval Office today, Secretary General. This went on for

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<v Speaker 2>quite some time and it was not your first visit

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<v Speaker 2>of course, with President Trump. Do you have the playbook?

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<v Speaker 1>Now?

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<v Speaker 2>Did you cook up the recipe? You show up with

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<v Speaker 2>the goods, a whiteboard, the stats and a story that

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<v Speaker 2>the President wants to hear, and you might be able

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<v Speaker 2>to advance your cause.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, what I believe is to be fair when

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<v Speaker 1>leadership is successful, His leadership is successful. And what I

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to show today is the successful in three ways.

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<v Speaker 1>Well only around a degree in a nuclear capability to

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<v Speaker 1>a NATO, not only getting the Allies to deliver to

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<v Speaker 1>commit to five percent defense spending, but also to deliver

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<v Speaker 1>on the spending, and that's clearly what is happening at

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<v Speaker 1>the moment. And third, by taking that coute, that mental

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<v Speaker 1>of being the leader of the free world, and when

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<v Speaker 1>he meets an Ancora, he will meet with all the Allies,

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<v Speaker 1>but also ten countries there as guests from the released

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<v Speaker 1>from in the Pacific, a total combined GDP of seventy

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<v Speaker 1>seven zero seventy trillion dollars two and a half the

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<v Speaker 1>size of the United States. Absolutely there to hear his views,

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<v Speaker 1>to get his thoughts on the next steps we collectively

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<v Speaker 1>have to take.

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<v Speaker 3>Well. Of course, the financial aspect of this and the

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<v Speaker 3>investments in the defense industrial base are one part of it,

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<v Speaker 3>mister Secretary General, but there's also the consideration of actual

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<v Speaker 3>human capital and US military forces that are currently stationed

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<v Speaker 3>all around Europe. Obviously, we've now seen withdraws considerations this

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<v Speaker 3>administration is making about moving troops around. Further, how do

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<v Speaker 3>you avoid anything being chaotic in nature as that plays out?

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<v Speaker 3>And how does Europe make sure that it's able to

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<v Speaker 3>adequately defend himself itself in a surprise scenario. What are

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<v Speaker 3>those preparations like.

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<v Speaker 1>I think the United States is doing that. So let's

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<v Speaker 1>first agree that the United States has to take care

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<v Speaker 1>of multiple theaters, not only Europe, also for example in

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<v Speaker 1>the Pacific, and if a situation would occur where they

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<v Speaker 1>have to defend both sides of the equation, both in

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<v Speaker 1>the Pacific and Europe, they have to avoid the situation

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<v Speaker 1>in which they have spread their resources too thinly. This

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<v Speaker 1>is why Europeans have to step up. This is NATO

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<v Speaker 1>three point zero, stronger Europe and a stronger NATO. That

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<v Speaker 1>means that the US will stay involved when it comes

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<v Speaker 1>to the nuclear umbrella, but also when it comes to

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<v Speaker 1>the conventional but aver time. Right, you now will see

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<v Speaker 1>and this is a structured process, is that the Europeans

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<v Speaker 1>are taking over more and more of that leadership role.

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<v Speaker 1>For example, when it comes to the three combatant commands.

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<v Speaker 1>They will over the next eighteen to twenty four months

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<v Speaker 1>move from American generals and admirals to European generals and admirals.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's also an example of European stepping up. But

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<v Speaker 1>also when it comes to UK, the fact that the

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<v Speaker 1>US is still providing all the support but paid for

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<v Speaker 1>by Europeans in Canada, which is only fair. So europe

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<v Speaker 1>stepping up, the US staying heavily involved when it comes

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<v Speaker 1>to the conventional nuclear detterns in Europe.

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<v Speaker 2>Presidents had a lot to say about NATO's lack of

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<v Speaker 2>involvement in the Strait of Horror moves. Did that come

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<v Speaker 2>up today? Did he have a message for you on

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<v Speaker 2>this or is he moving on? Now?

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<v Speaker 1>You've seen this in the public part, and I know

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<v Speaker 1>there is disappointment, And the point I wanted to make

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<v Speaker 1>is that the disappointment has to do with a couple

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<v Speaker 1>of isolated cases. Yes, they are there. I understand to disappointment,

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<v Speaker 1>But when you look at your overall picture of European

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<v Speaker 1>nations living up to their bilateral basing basing agreements with

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<v Speaker 1>the United States. So this is not NATO these or

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<v Speaker 1>bilateral agreements, but obviously they are all allies. When you

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<v Speaker 1>look at that, what you see is between the ends

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<v Speaker 1>of February, when the war started on the twenty eighth

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<v Speaker 1>of February until the ceasefire mid April, that between four

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<v Speaker 1>thousand and five thousand US planes taking off from European basis.

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<v Speaker 1>This is Europe as one big power projection platform forty years.

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<v Speaker 2>President know that before you told them?

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<v Speaker 1>I guess so, Yes, he knows all these numbers. But

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<v Speaker 1>I think it is fair to also point out to

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<v Speaker 1>that fact. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, as we consider the different facts and figures here,

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<v Speaker 3>mister Secretary General, when we consider the actual articles that

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<v Speaker 3>buying together the NATO Alliance, including Article five. I know

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<v Speaker 3>before you came over to speak with us, you we're

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<v Speaker 3>speaking with a number of reporters, and you told them

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<v Speaker 3>that you are absolutely certain that the US would protect

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<v Speaker 3>Europe if necessary. Is that just a certainty that you

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<v Speaker 3>feel the US would abide by Article five or did

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<v Speaker 3>the President say that to you directly? Did he verbally

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<v Speaker 3>reaffirm that commitment?

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<v Speaker 1>Again, I will never, in my role as Sector General

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<v Speaker 1>disclose what we discuss betrying between closed doors, but let

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<v Speaker 1>me say this Article five is there to protect the

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<v Speaker 1>whole of the alliance, and the US is not only

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<v Speaker 1>involved in NATO to protect Europe. NATO was also there

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<v Speaker 1>to protect the United States. You've seen Jona stee At,

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<v Speaker 1>the Prime Minister of Norway, visiting the White House in

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<v Speaker 1>April last year and showing those charts with these huge

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<v Speaker 1>Russian nuclear submarines just over the border from Norway in

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<v Speaker 1>these big Russian ports, and he explained to the President

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<v Speaker 1>these submarines are not there to attack Norway. They are

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<v Speaker 1>there to attact the United States and prevent these submarines

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<v Speaker 1>to become a threat to the United States. We have

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<v Speaker 1>the Alliance working together making sure that these submarines are

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<v Speaker 1>not capable of reaching the shores on this side of

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<v Speaker 1>the Atlantic. And then when it comes to Europe as such,

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<v Speaker 1>the fact that the US is so heavily involved in

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<v Speaker 1>Europe also gives to the United States the ability to

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<v Speaker 1>do long range strikes, the ability to control critical choke points,

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<v Speaker 1>the ability to have industrial depth when it comes to

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<v Speaker 1>defense industrial productions. So there are many reagions why the

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<v Speaker 1>US is revolved not only to protect Europe, but also

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<v Speaker 1>because the defense of the US mainland is involved. Here.

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<v Speaker 2>President has some nice things to say about Turkey and

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<v Speaker 2>President Erduwan in the Oval office today and of course

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<v Speaker 2>we had pretty big news. It was a market moving headline,

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<v Speaker 2>the President announcing is sending more engines aircraft engines to

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<v Speaker 2>Turkey despite objections from some in Congress secretary journalists. Is

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<v Speaker 2>this the right move right now?

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<v Speaker 1>I never commented about these by that's all decisions you

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<v Speaker 1>have to understand. When there are discussions between allies, you

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<v Speaker 1>will see me going mute and then trying to help

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<v Speaker 1>behind the scenes when decisions are being made between allies.

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<v Speaker 1>When it comes to specific defense industrial decisions, I'm always

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<v Speaker 1>staying out of that, of course, taking note for me,

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<v Speaker 1>one thing is crucial keeping the allies together, making sure

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<v Speaker 1>we are as strong as possible in the United States

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<v Speaker 1>is providing the leadership and the defense industial output and

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<v Speaker 1>the encouragement to make sure we stay strong.

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<v Speaker 3>Well and understanding your reluctance to talk about specific defense

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<v Speaker 3>systems between countries, can you shed some light as to

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<v Speaker 3>whether there is a conversation happening amongst all of the

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<v Speaker 3>allies about increasing the supply of patriots specifically, what is

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<v Speaker 3>the nature of those conversations.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, that's a crucial conversation because the Patriots missiles, the

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<v Speaker 1>back three missiles are crucial, but it comes to the

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<v Speaker 1>Patriot systems to be a maximum effective obviously, and what

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<v Speaker 1>you're seeing at the moment is that Ukraine needs them

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<v Speaker 1>to protect their cities, to protect their critical infrastructure. The

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<v Speaker 1>Russians are not able to advance on the front line.

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<v Speaker 1>They are losing a lot of Russians as we discussed

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<v Speaker 1>already in this interview. But obviously there is still a

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<v Speaker 1>threat from Russia when it comes to cities and the

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<v Speaker 1>critical infrastructure in Ukraine. So that's one reason why we

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<v Speaker 1>need to ramp up Patriot missile production. There is close

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<v Speaker 1>cooperation between companies in the United States and companies in

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<v Speaker 1>Europe to help with that productions or a lot is

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<v Speaker 1>going on. I guess the meeting the President is now

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<v Speaker 1>having with the big defense industry of companies will also

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<v Speaker 1>partly be about the Patriots, but also the other defense

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<v Speaker 1>industry output of the United States. So yes, this is

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<v Speaker 1>absolutely being discussed and it is very important.

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<v Speaker 2>This is what you need most now. The interceptors for

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<v Speaker 2>Patriots fads, are there others?

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<v Speaker 1>Secretary, of course, we also need long range ammunition. We

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<v Speaker 1>need everything to ramp up the production of everything. The

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<v Speaker 1>good news is that our stockpiles are in a good position,

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<v Speaker 1>so we can defend ourselves. But with the war in

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<v Speaker 1>Ukraine and the war in the Middle East, obviously we

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<v Speaker 1>have to make sure that we keep that production going.

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<v Speaker 1>And with all the money coming in. There's also a

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<v Speaker 1>from a purely commercial perspective for defense industrial companies that

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<v Speaker 1>region to rempop production because the demand is there and

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<v Speaker 1>the money is there, both in the US and Europe

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<v Speaker 1>and Canada.

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<v Speaker 2>NATO Secretary General Mark Ruter, we thank you so much,

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<v Speaker 2>Secretary General. We'd love to follow up after the summit

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<v Speaker 2>in Okrea. Thank you for being so generous with your time.