Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2: Following his meeting moments ago in the Oval Office with
Speaker 2: President Trump is NATO's Secretary General, Mark Ruta, Mister Secretary General,
Speaker 2: Welcome back to Bloomberg TV and Radio. It means a
Speaker 2: lot of yourself. Take your time at what I know
Speaker 2: is a very busy day. Absolutely, we saw you in there.
Speaker 2: We were watching the hole back and forth with yourself,
Speaker 2: the President, and a gaggle of reporters. In the Oval Office.
Speaker 2: You had everything from whiteboards to stats to make the
Speaker 2: argument to President Trump. Did you manage to soften some
Speaker 2: of the edges when it comes to Trump and the Alliance?
Speaker 1: Well, I mean what I think is important is to
Speaker 1: be fair, and fairness dictates that this president is really
Speaker 1: doing a huge amount of work to get NATO in
Speaker 1: better shape. He had a big success last year in
Speaker 1: the Hague with the five percent spending commitment. But what
Speaker 1: I wanted to show to him tonight is that over
Speaker 1: the last ten years since forty five, if an out
Speaker 1: tramp forty seven. We see this secularly English on European
Speaker 1: and Canadian allies spending more, but also but it comes
Speaker 1: to the year on year increase forty seven and twenty
Speaker 1: to twenty five, almost twenty percent more spending, which is
Speaker 1: of course because of Russia and the threat and the
Speaker 1: war in Ukraine, but also very much because this president
Speaker 1: is quite forcefully encouraging allies to spend more. And I
Speaker 1: think it is fair to share that with him.
Speaker 3: Well, in mister Secretary General, it's not just the president,
Speaker 3: it's others in his administration as well. The Defense Secretary
Speaker 3: Pete Hegsett set in Brussels recently that the US would
Speaker 3: stop paying NATO dues if the allies don't meet defense
Speaker 3: spending targets. And your understanding is this just the long
Speaker 3: term five percent target that matters, or has has this
Speaker 3: administration set out to you that there needs to be
Speaker 3: more interim goals met in the short term.
Speaker 1: Well, but we are seeing already with the almost twenty
Speaker 1: percent increase that you are reaching the mes interims of
Speaker 1: subsorption capacity. You can only each year on year spend
Speaker 1: so much more because you have to find and higher
Speaker 1: and contract and managment in a uniform. Obviously, you have
Speaker 1: to work very hard, and the US is doing that,
Speaker 1: Europe is doing that on expanding the output of the
Speaker 1: defense industrial base at a bitch at the moment on
Speaker 1: both types of the Atlantic it's simply not producing enough.
Speaker 1: So the pennsident is now meeting with the bosses of
Speaker 1: the big defense industrial companies in the United States to
Speaker 1: again make that argument. But then given dead background, spending
Speaker 1: almost twenty percent more means that he not only got
Speaker 1: to promise in the Hague, but at alash are now delivering.
Speaker 1: Take Germany spending twice as much in twenty twenty nine
Speaker 1: as it did in twenty twenty one, more than a
Speaker 1: half and fifty billion by twenty twenty nine. These are
Speaker 1: really big numbers and a great success.
Speaker 2: I want to ask you about Ukraine, Secretary General and
Speaker 2: what you heard from President Trump today. It was shocking
Speaker 2: for a lot of people to see massive black clouds
Speaker 2: of smoke pluming over Saint Petersburg. We know that Ukraine
Speaker 2: is reaching deeper into Russian territory and making remarkable use
Speaker 2: of its advanced drone technology. Does President Trump believe Ukraine
Speaker 2: can win this war militarily?
Speaker 1: Well, let me not speak for President Trump because I
Speaker 1: think he should do that himself, but obviously be discussed Ukraine,
Speaker 1: and you heard this also in the public part of
Speaker 1: the meeting with the media in the Oval Office that
Speaker 1: he acknowledged that Ukraine is doing well on the battlefield,
Speaker 1: is doing well in terms of hitting some of the
Speaker 1: critical infrastructure in Russia. I really think that over the
Speaker 1: last three to six months, Ukraine is doing much better.
Speaker 1: And when you look at the amount of Russians getting
Speaker 1: killed or seriously wounded, we are now reaching numbers of
Speaker 1: thirty to thirty five thousand. When you look at the
Speaker 1: war in Vietnam in fourteen years the United States lost,
Speaker 1: Russia is now losing in five weeks what the United
Speaker 1: States lost in fourteen years in Vietnam. Russia's losing now
Speaker 1: in three weeks what Russians was in ten years in
Speaker 1: Afghanistan in the nineteen eighties. These are staggering numbers. So
Speaker 1: as you saw in the public part of the meeting,
Speaker 1: the President Framuch acknowledging the fact that the Ukrainians are
Speaker 1: doing so much better also thanks to US support, which
Speaker 1: is they're paid for the European and Canadian allies and
Speaker 1: other key helped the US is providing.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 3: As we consider what Ukraine has been able to accomplish
Speaker 3: in the longer range strikes, we are seeing into Russian territory,
Speaker 3: Secretary General, have any of the NATO allies expressed some
Speaker 3: concern about that, the idea that it could spark further
Speaker 3: Russian retaliation and rope NATO countries into it.
Speaker 1: Well, I think we should start by seeing what happened
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two. By the way, in twenty fourteen
Speaker 1: when they grabbed Crimea and then in February twenty twenty
Speaker 1: two when they started to full onslaughts on Ukraine. This
Speaker 1: was unprovoked. There was absolutely no reason for the Russians
Speaker 1: to do this. So it's only fair for Ukraine to
Speaker 1: be able to defend itself. And they do this with
Speaker 1: help from the best, but also because of their own ingenuity.
Speaker 1: They're extremely successful in constantly updating the long technology and
Speaker 1: the end time DeLong technology, staying ahead of the Russians
Speaker 1: and therefore really being successful on the battlefield.
Speaker 2: Now, it's really something we watched you very closely in
Speaker 2: the Oval Office today, Secretary General. This went on for
Speaker 2: quite some time and it was not your first visit
Speaker 2: of course, with President Trump. Do you have the playbook?
Speaker 1: Now?
Speaker 2: Did you cook up the recipe? You show up with
Speaker 2: the goods, a whiteboard, the stats and a story that
Speaker 2: the President wants to hear, and you might be able
Speaker 2: to advance your cause.
Speaker 1: You know, what I believe is to be fair when
Speaker 1: leadership is successful, His leadership is successful. And what I
Speaker 1: wanted to show today is the successful in three ways.
Speaker 1: Well only around a degree in a nuclear capability to
Speaker 1: a NATO, not only getting the Allies to deliver to
Speaker 1: commit to five percent defense spending, but also to deliver
Speaker 1: on the spending, and that's clearly what is happening at
Speaker 1: the moment. And third, by taking that coute, that mental
Speaker 1: of being the leader of the free world, and when
Speaker 1: he meets an Ancora, he will meet with all the Allies,
Speaker 1: but also ten countries there as guests from the released
Speaker 1: from in the Pacific, a total combined GDP of seventy
Speaker 1: seven zero seventy trillion dollars two and a half the
Speaker 1: size of the United States. Absolutely there to hear his views,
Speaker 1: to get his thoughts on the next steps we collectively
Speaker 1: have to take.
Speaker 3: Well. Of course, the financial aspect of this and the
Speaker 3: investments in the defense industrial base are one part of it,
Speaker 3: mister Secretary General, but there's also the consideration of actual
Speaker 3: human capital and US military forces that are currently stationed
Speaker 3: all around Europe. Obviously, we've now seen withdraws considerations this
Speaker 3: administration is making about moving troops around. Further, how do
Speaker 3: you avoid anything being chaotic in nature as that plays out?
Speaker 3: And how does Europe make sure that it's able to
Speaker 3: adequately defend himself itself in a surprise scenario. What are
Speaker 3: those preparations like.
Speaker 1: I think the United States is doing that. So let's
Speaker 1: first agree that the United States has to take care
Speaker 1: of multiple theaters, not only Europe, also for example in
Speaker 1: the Pacific, and if a situation would occur where they
Speaker 1: have to defend both sides of the equation, both in
Speaker 1: the Pacific and Europe, they have to avoid the situation
Speaker 1: in which they have spread their resources too thinly. This
Speaker 1: is why Europeans have to step up. This is NATO
Speaker 1: three point zero, stronger Europe and a stronger NATO. That
Speaker 1: means that the US will stay involved when it comes
Speaker 1: to the nuclear umbrella, but also when it comes to
Speaker 1: the conventional but aver time. Right, you now will see
Speaker 1: and this is a structured process, is that the Europeans
Speaker 1: are taking over more and more of that leadership role.
Speaker 1: For example, when it comes to the three combatant commands.
Speaker 1: They will over the next eighteen to twenty four months
Speaker 1: move from American generals and admirals to European generals and admirals.
Speaker 1: So that's also an example of European stepping up. But
Speaker 1: also when it comes to UK, the fact that the
Speaker 1: US is still providing all the support but paid for
Speaker 1: by Europeans in Canada, which is only fair. So europe
Speaker 1: stepping up, the US staying heavily involved when it comes
Speaker 1: to the conventional nuclear detterns in Europe.
Speaker 2: Presidents had a lot to say about NATO's lack of
Speaker 2: involvement in the Strait of Horror moves. Did that come
Speaker 2: up today? Did he have a message for you on
Speaker 2: this or is he moving on? Now?
Speaker 1: You've seen this in the public part, and I know
Speaker 1: there is disappointment, And the point I wanted to make
Speaker 1: is that the disappointment has to do with a couple
Speaker 1: of isolated cases. Yes, they are there. I understand to disappointment,
Speaker 1: But when you look at your overall picture of European
Speaker 1: nations living up to their bilateral basing basing agreements with
Speaker 1: the United States. So this is not NATO these or
Speaker 1: bilateral agreements, but obviously they are all allies. When you
Speaker 1: look at that, what you see is between the ends
Speaker 1: of February, when the war started on the twenty eighth
Speaker 1: of February until the ceasefire mid April, that between four
Speaker 1: thousand and five thousand US planes taking off from European basis.
Speaker 1: This is Europe as one big power projection platform forty years.
Speaker 2: President know that before you told them?
Speaker 1: I guess so, Yes, he knows all these numbers. But
Speaker 1: I think it is fair to also point out to
Speaker 1: that fact. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, as we consider the different facts and figures here,
Speaker 3: mister Secretary General, when we consider the actual articles that
Speaker 3: buying together the NATO Alliance, including Article five. I know
Speaker 3: before you came over to speak with us, you we're
Speaker 3: speaking with a number of reporters, and you told them
Speaker 3: that you are absolutely certain that the US would protect
Speaker 3: Europe if necessary. Is that just a certainty that you
Speaker 3: feel the US would abide by Article five or did
Speaker 3: the President say that to you directly? Did he verbally
Speaker 3: reaffirm that commitment?
Speaker 1: Again, I will never, in my role as Sector General
Speaker 1: disclose what we discuss betrying between closed doors, but let
Speaker 1: me say this Article five is there to protect the
Speaker 1: whole of the alliance, and the US is not only
Speaker 1: involved in NATO to protect Europe. NATO was also there
Speaker 1: to protect the United States. You've seen Jona stee At,
Speaker 1: the Prime Minister of Norway, visiting the White House in
Speaker 1: April last year and showing those charts with these huge
Speaker 1: Russian nuclear submarines just over the border from Norway in
Speaker 1: these big Russian ports, and he explained to the President
Speaker 1: these submarines are not there to attack Norway. They are
Speaker 1: there to attact the United States and prevent these submarines
Speaker 1: to become a threat to the United States. We have
Speaker 1: the Alliance working together making sure that these submarines are
Speaker 1: not capable of reaching the shores on this side of
Speaker 1: the Atlantic. And then when it comes to Europe as such,
Speaker 1: the fact that the US is so heavily involved in
Speaker 1: Europe also gives to the United States the ability to
Speaker 1: do long range strikes, the ability to control critical choke points,
Speaker 1: the ability to have industrial depth when it comes to
Speaker 1: defense industrial productions. So there are many reagions why the
Speaker 1: US is revolved not only to protect Europe, but also
Speaker 1: because the defense of the US mainland is involved. Here.
Speaker 2: President has some nice things to say about Turkey and
Speaker 2: President Erduwan in the Oval office today and of course
Speaker 2: we had pretty big news. It was a market moving headline,
Speaker 2: the President announcing is sending more engines aircraft engines to
Speaker 2: Turkey despite objections from some in Congress secretary journalists. Is
Speaker 2: this the right move right now?
Speaker 1: I never commented about these by that's all decisions you
Speaker 1: have to understand. When there are discussions between allies, you
Speaker 1: will see me going mute and then trying to help
Speaker 1: behind the scenes when decisions are being made between allies.
Speaker 1: When it comes to specific defense industrial decisions, I'm always
Speaker 1: staying out of that, of course, taking note for me,
Speaker 1: one thing is crucial keeping the allies together, making sure
Speaker 1: we are as strong as possible in the United States
Speaker 1: is providing the leadership and the defense industial output and
Speaker 1: the encouragement to make sure we stay strong.
Speaker 3: Well and understanding your reluctance to talk about specific defense
Speaker 3: systems between countries, can you shed some light as to
Speaker 3: whether there is a conversation happening amongst all of the
Speaker 3: allies about increasing the supply of patriots specifically, what is
Speaker 3: the nature of those conversations.
Speaker 1: Well, that's a crucial conversation because the Patriots missiles, the
Speaker 1: back three missiles are crucial, but it comes to the
Speaker 1: Patriot systems to be a maximum effective obviously, and what
Speaker 1: you're seeing at the moment is that Ukraine needs them
Speaker 1: to protect their cities, to protect their critical infrastructure. The
Speaker 1: Russians are not able to advance on the front line.
Speaker 1: They are losing a lot of Russians as we discussed
Speaker 1: already in this interview. But obviously there is still a
Speaker 1: threat from Russia when it comes to cities and the
Speaker 1: critical infrastructure in Ukraine. So that's one reason why we
Speaker 1: need to ramp up Patriot missile production. There is close
Speaker 1: cooperation between companies in the United States and companies in
Speaker 1: Europe to help with that productions or a lot is
Speaker 1: going on. I guess the meeting the President is now
Speaker 1: having with the big defense industry of companies will also
Speaker 1: partly be about the Patriots, but also the other defense
Speaker 1: industry output of the United States. So yes, this is
Speaker 1: absolutely being discussed and it is very important.
Speaker 2: This is what you need most now. The interceptors for
Speaker 2: Patriots fads, are there others?
Speaker 1: Secretary, of course, we also need long range ammunition. We
Speaker 1: need everything to ramp up the production of everything. The
Speaker 1: good news is that our stockpiles are in a good position,
Speaker 1: so we can defend ourselves. But with the war in
Speaker 1: Ukraine and the war in the Middle East, obviously we
Speaker 1: have to make sure that we keep that production going.
Speaker 1: And with all the money coming in. There's also a
Speaker 1: from a purely commercial perspective for defense industrial companies that
Speaker 1: region to rempop production because the demand is there and
Speaker 1: the money is there, both in the US and Europe
Speaker 1: and Canada.
Speaker 2: NATO Secretary General Mark Ruter, we thank you so much,
Speaker 2: Secretary General. We'd love to follow up after the summit
Speaker 2: in Okrea. Thank you for being so generous with your time.