1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,640 Speaker 1: I was knocked to the ground, and when I came 2 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: to my handbag with my person, my credit cards had 3 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 1: all gone. Just come from the hospital, I need to 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: pay my guests bill, and I've got to present for 5 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:20,239 Speaker 1: my grandson. I just don't know what to do. We'd 6 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: better getting some new ones. And my computer says, now, 7 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:40,879 Speaker 1: hello and welcome to Stephanomics, the podcast that brings the 8 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: global economy to you. From that clip was part of 9 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: a running joke in Little Britain, the cult BBC comedy 10 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: of the and it was doing the rounds A few 11 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 1: days ago in a mini Twitter storm over an interview 12 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: I did with the British finance Minister, the chance of 13 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: the Exchequer, Rishi Sun. In it, he had explained why 14 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: he had to wait until next year to raise UK 15 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: welfare payments in line with rocketing inflation, rather than maybe 16 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 1: giving families the help right now. It wasn't because it 17 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: was too expensive. It needn't cost anything at all. It 18 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: was that the system wouldn't let him. Computer says no. Well, 19 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: you can hear his answer to that and my other 20 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: questions in a minute. Also, how the mood cooled noticeably 21 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: when I asked him about recent revelations that his wife 22 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,040 Speaker 1: had been using a loophole in UK tax law which 23 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: enabled her to avoid millions of pounds in UK tax 24 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: on her foreign earnings. After the Chancellor will be heading 25 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:37,759 Speaker 1: halfway around the world to hear from the United Nations 26 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: Commissioner of Human Rights, the former President of Chile, Dr 27 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: Michelle Bacheley. I've been talking to her at the New 28 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: Economy Gateway event in Panama about Russian war crimes, American 29 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: abortion rights and whether the new president of Chile can 30 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: succeed where she didn't worth sticking around for. But first, 31 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:58,639 Speaker 1: here's the Chancellor and if you want to picture the scene, 32 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: the two of us were so seeing in a very 33 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: swanky new shared workspace in the English city of Stoke 34 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: on Trent, previously the home of English Pottery, now best 35 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: known as the headquarters of the Betting Company at three 36 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:26,639 Speaker 1: five Chancelor, thanks very much for doing this. We've had 37 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: the GDP news today. There's obviously a lot of factors, 38 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: global factors creating uncertainty for the economy, but we have 39 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: also created some of our own in the UK and 40 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: the debate about the Northern Ireland Protocol is obviously casting 41 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 1: casting a shadow. Have you analyzed at the Treasury what 42 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 1: the economic implications of tearing up the protocol would be. 43 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,239 Speaker 1: First of all, on the protocol, I think the government's 44 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: position is that as it's currently operating, it's poses enormous 45 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: challenges to the stability of the situation in Northern Ireland. 46 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: You can see it's become a barrier to re establishing 47 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: power sharing in Northern Ireland doesn't have cross community consent 48 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 1: and that's a very serious situation that needs resolving. Our 49 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: preferences is to have and always has been, to have 50 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: a negotiated settlement with our European friends and partners, and 51 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 1: no decision has been taken about you know what the 52 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: future direction might be. And we've got your second question. Look, 53 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,359 Speaker 1: of course that's that's my job to provide the Prime 54 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: Minister in the government with analysis on policy regarding the economy, 55 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: and you'd expect me to do that and everything, and 56 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: of course we do, and we're constantly monitoring everything that's 57 00:03:36,280 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: going on and analyzing that as we go. But we 58 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 1: we understand that you could get legislation next week to 59 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: make it possible to tear up the protocol, and that 60 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: seems to be what the Foreign Secretary is supporting are 61 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: you Are you lobbying hard on behalf of the economy 62 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: to prevent that. I think it's important people know that 63 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: no decision has been taken. Our preference has always been 64 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: to have a negotiated settlement, and you said that the 65 00:03:57,440 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: Treasury job to analyze these things. When the protocol was signed, 66 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: it was very clear that these checks were going to happen, 67 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: that there would be this kind of impediment to trade. 68 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: So that's something that's that's no surprise at all. I 69 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: think when it comes to the protocol where to recognize 70 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: that there's a there's a unique situation in Northern Ireland 71 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: and everyone acknowledged that at the time, and it required 72 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 1: a degree of flexibility and a constructive attitude on all 73 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 1: sides to recognize the particular circumstances of Northern Ireland to 74 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: come up with a solution that would work. And I'm 75 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 1: hopeful that continued dialogue and negotiation can't resolve the situation 76 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 1: result and the negotiated But just when you're weighing up 77 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: the impact on the economy as a chancellor, seems clear 78 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 1: that you would be pushing for the continuation of the 79 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: protocol rather than throwing all of our trade relationship into uncertainty. Well, 80 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: it's it's important to me, as it is important to 81 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: the government, that we also protect the Good Friday Agreement, 82 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: that we resume power sharing in Northern Ireland, that we 83 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 1: make sure that Norther Ireland's placed in the Union in 84 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: the United Kingdom is secure. And it's clear that the 85 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: Protocol as it's currently operating is is causing on all 86 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: those things. And that's why we, you know, we wereain 87 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 1: committed to trying to find resolution on that. It's a 88 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,159 Speaker 1: serious situation and that's something that across government we all feel. 89 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: One of the reasons why a big trade war with 90 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: Europe would be the worst possible timing is the cost 91 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 1: of living crisis. Our economists estimate that the cost of 92 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 1: living squeeze altogether is going to cost the average family 93 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 1: well over twenty one pounds this year. You've got, as 94 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 1: a result, real disposable income falling by four percent. We're 95 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 1: also expecting to see the economy shrink in the second 96 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: and fourth quarter. We've already saw today, it shrinks, started 97 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: to shrink in March. I mean, do you look back 98 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: now and wish that you had got more ahead of 99 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: this crisis in the spring statement, rather than yet again 100 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:52,479 Speaker 1: having to rush out some emergency medicine under pressure from 101 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 1: from the rest of the government. Well, no, I think 102 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 1: it's important that the policy remains responsive to the situation 103 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 1: that we're seeing. And in the spring and in February, 104 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: we had a sense of what was happening. In particular, 105 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 1: we had clarity on energy prices because the price cap 106 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: was increased in April by about seven hundred pounds and 107 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 1: we announced in advance of that the support that was 108 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: going to accompany that increase, and it's worth about three 109 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: fifty pounds for a typical households, about half the increase. 110 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: And then on top of that overall I've just said 111 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 1: it's two thousands. So that doesn't feel responsive. But that's 112 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,919 Speaker 1: just one aspect of what we're doing. And if you 113 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: if you look what's happening in a few weeks time, 114 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: for example, there's a very significant tax cart coming in 115 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 1: for thirty million people in work. That's well, it means 116 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: that most people in work, the vast majority, seventy of them, 117 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: will see a net tax cut in facts worth three pounds. 118 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: The combination of our fuel duty freeze and fuel duty 119 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: tax cut, the largest ever cut to fuel duty that's 120 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: worth another hundred pounds for a typical family. The national 121 00:06:56,960 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: living wage has just gone up but a few weeks ago. 122 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: Again that's worth about a thousand pounds a year to 123 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: someone working full time on the national living wage. So 124 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: you put all these things together, there's quite a lot 125 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: of support in place. But I've always said I'd stand 126 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: ready to do more as the situation evolves, particularly with 127 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: energy prices where the price cap will will most likely 128 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: go up again in the autumn. And I'm focused now 129 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: on I'm out and about across the country, listening to people, 130 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: hearing what's on their mind, what they're worried about, to 131 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: make sure that we can get our policy right. And 132 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: that's the thing that I'm focused on now. Don't You've 133 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: mentioned that lots of the measures actually were to help 134 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: working families, but we have there's a big hit for 135 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: anyone who's reliant on on state benefits. And that's a 136 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 1: very simple thing that could have been done that actually 137 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: would have been cost neutral, would have been to spread 138 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: the uprating across two years, so instead of getting a 139 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: well below inflation increase in benefits this year, and what 140 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: will probably be a well above inflation increased next year. 141 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: You could have spread it over two years, and I 142 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: know there may have been some technical problems with that, 143 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: but have you worked out how to do that, because 144 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: it obviously can make Actually there are quite the technical problems. 145 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: That sounds like an excuse, but the operational is actually 146 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: technically complicated and it's not necessarily possible to do that 147 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: for everybody. And actually many other systems are built in 148 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 1: a way that they can only be done once a year. 149 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: And the decision was taken quite quite a while ago 150 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: before you managed to put the further you designed the 151 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 1: furlough scheme. For most of the world of the UK 152 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: popular work. The welfare system works in a in a 153 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: very different way, and we're constrained somewhat by the operation 154 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: of the welfare system, so it can't be done for 155 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: everybody in that way, but we are still supporting people. 156 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:37,480 Speaker 1: I recognize there's always going to be families in a 157 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: particular circumstance that it's you know, I can't particularly forecast 158 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: sitting at a desk and in the treasury, and that's 159 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 1: why we've given councils before and now up to a 160 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,600 Speaker 1: billion pounds of discretionary funding because the local councils are 161 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: best place to know those very vulnerable families who for 162 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,679 Speaker 1: whatever reason aren't quite getting the help they need. So 163 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 1: those councils now have the funding that they can provide 164 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: direct support to those families a little bit extra as well. 165 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:03,679 Speaker 1: And you've talked about council's We've done a very careful 166 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: look at what's happened on the leveling up agenda across 167 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 1: the country, since everything that we can get on very 168 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: latest because obviously most of the time you have got 169 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 1: rather old data. But the things that go right up 170 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: mostly to the spring of this year, the gap between 171 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: London and Southeast and everywhere else is growing on every 172 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,559 Speaker 1: measure except life expectancy and the number of people on benefits. 173 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: And that's only because London has leveled down. Those things 174 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 1: have got worse. In London. Here salaries on our monthly 175 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: salaries have fallen behind the London and Southeast by another 176 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: three hundred pounds. I mean, it's an impossible task that 177 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 1: you've been landed with this leveling up agenda and you're 178 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: not It doesn't feel like the government's really putting the 179 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: money in the effort in to make a difference on 180 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: any of these measures. So I haven't seen your report yet, 181 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 1: so forgive me for not having cited exactly the figures, 182 00:09:57,720 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: and they're slightly different to the figures that I've looked 183 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: at previous slee where what you saw was a much 184 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,959 Speaker 1: stronger recovery and jobs and wages outside of London and 185 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: the Southeast. So I'd be interested to have a look 186 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 1: at your report. I think in general at the period 187 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: that you're describing is obviously the period of the pandemic, 188 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: and so it's a child that's been a challenging time 189 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: for the economy. But that said, we are very committed 190 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: to leveling up. You know, what does it mean to me? 191 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: It means making sure people wherever they happen to grow 192 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: up and live in the UK feel that they've got 193 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: fantastic opportunity ahead of them and that they also have 194 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,199 Speaker 1: enormous pride in the place where they get to call home. 195 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: You know, we're sitting here and Stoke, which has received 196 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 1: a huge amount of investment in the town here, or 197 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 1: the cities here or the collection of towns, and also 198 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: investment in the transport infrastructure. And I've been here multiple 199 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: times to visit local businesses in the community, and actually 200 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: there's an enormous sense of positivity and optimism here about 201 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: what's happening. Were blue bergs, So we obviously we're very 202 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 1: focused on the financial services on the city. You had 203 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,599 Speaker 1: a fantastic career in the city. You've also been in 204 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,400 Speaker 1: high office for several years. It's very easy to lose 205 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: track of how the rest of the world sees things, 206 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: and I just I have to ask you, it's been 207 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: a few weeks since the story broke, do you have 208 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: a better understanding now of why even your supporters found 209 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:17,200 Speaker 1: it extraordinary that your family was organizing its tax affairs 210 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 1: to to limit UK tax So, my my wife's her 211 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: own person. She's an independent businesswoman. She's made a statement 212 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: she's my wife. Is I think people would find extraordinary 213 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: if she was my property, I wouldn't. I wouldn't presume 214 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: to dictate my wife to tell her what to do. 215 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: She's an independent business person and she's always followed all 216 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: the rules. She's paid taxes in the UK on her 217 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:43,839 Speaker 1: UK earnings and international taxes on her international earnings, very 218 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:47,679 Speaker 1: much within the rules. But she recognized that, you know, 219 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,079 Speaker 1: there was a call to go beyond the rules and 220 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: she made that decision herself to pay both UK and 221 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: foreign TA. You didn't think it was extraordinary. I just 222 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: wonder whether you think you often talk about being a 223 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:00,959 Speaker 1: good husband and being a good sitter, and do you 224 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 1: think being a good citizen, a good husband, a good 225 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: leader is only about sticking to the rules and doing 226 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: what's legal. But I do think about part of being 227 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 1: a good husband is not presuming to dictate to my 228 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: wife what to do, because she's an independent person and 229 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:26,199 Speaker 1: I support her decisions. And now to Panama and the 230 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 1: New Economy Gateway. It's an event that's an offshoot of 231 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: the Singapore New Economy Forum that Bloomberg holds every year 232 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: in November. As I write this, I'm looking at a 233 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: long line of container ships out my window queuing to 234 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 1: get into the Panama Canal. So yes, it is a 235 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: good place to talk about supply chains and the future 236 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:48,559 Speaker 1: of global trade. We've been doing that a lot in 237 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:50,679 Speaker 1: the last couple of days, but we've also been doing 238 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:52,319 Speaker 1: that a lot on this podcast, so I thought you 239 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: might be more interested to hear my conversation with Dr 240 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: Michelle Bachelor, Commissioner for Human Rights for the United Nations, 241 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: and President of Chiday between two thousand and six and 242 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: twenty ten, since we were talking to an audience in Panama, 243 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: we spent a lot of time on Latin America. But 244 00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: I started by asking her whether Vladimir Putin all members 245 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: of the Russian military should not be tried for war 246 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 1: crimes in Ukraine. Well, I have to say that we 247 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 1: have had admission there from two thousand and fourteen that 248 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,719 Speaker 1: had been a monitory and reporting all kinds of situations 249 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: and making a lot of reports to the human rights 250 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: councils sense the South of fourteen and after the twenty 251 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 1: fourth of February, they're still there working there, identifying and 252 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:40,079 Speaker 1: receiving a lot of information allegations of violation of human rights, 253 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 1: on on how prison of war have been treated, if 254 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 1: there are allegations of arbitrary killings or actually usual killings, 255 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: is there any allegations on gender based violence and rapes? 256 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: And our job as the Office of the High Commissioner 257 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: is to to get all that in mention to verify it, 258 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: to see with what are facts that are real and 259 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,959 Speaker 1: which are not, because in this kind of situation we 260 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: need to ensure that the information we share with the 261 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: world and of course with the media as well, are 262 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,559 Speaker 1: facts that are real. But it's not for us to 263 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: say whether something is a war crime or not. There 264 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: is a particular if I would say, methodology to identify 265 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: if delegations are a reality, and we do that. We 266 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: are also asking to preserve evidence because the only possibility 267 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: of defining war crimes is on a tribunal with evidence 268 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: based But let me say something. The war in Ukraine 269 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: is not a war that can be seen only as 270 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 1: a terrible and it is violation of international humanity law 271 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: and international human wrest law. That is one terrible thing, 272 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: and it has had so many casualties and grievances, etcetera. 273 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: But I have to say the war in Ukraine has 274 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: provoked and will continu needed to provoke a three dimensional 275 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: crisis or food, energy and finance, as oil, fertilizers and 276 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: food prices are character ticketing and there will be serious 277 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: effect in Latin America and the Caribbean, already deeply affected 278 00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: by the COVID nineteen pandemic. Pricing christ is particularly affect 279 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: more of a population if we continue with high levels 280 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: of inflation, with lack of enough food, with people having 281 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: not any support there will be a big social unrest. 282 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: I'm certain about that. I mean, when when something happens 283 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,640 Speaker 1: in the country, but the leaders are trusted, that leader 284 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: can speak to the country then say, look, we are 285 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 1: facing this issue. We did not produce it, but we're 286 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: having the consequences, and we're going to deal with this 287 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: and this and this and this manner that if there's 288 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: no trust in institution, they are not trust in leadership, 289 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: it could be much worse. Just briefly, to go back 290 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: on on Ukraine, I mean, obviously, sitting in Latin America, 291 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: it has its own experience of of being next to 292 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: a very large neighbor and that neighbor involving itself in 293 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 1: its affairs. And the US has been very vociferous about 294 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: calling for Russian officials to be prosecuted for war crimes, 295 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: despite the fact that the US has itself refused to 296 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: join or be bound by the International Criminal Court. Do 297 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 1: you do you think that's tenable? Do you think that 298 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: is a constructive contribution? Well, I believe that the definition 299 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: of war crime is not political. It has to be 300 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 1: udicial after a criminal investigation, and uh and and and 301 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 1: and that's what we will stand for. And to have 302 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:41,239 Speaker 1: all the information needed to ensure that there is the process, 303 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: that there are serious investigation, and that all the evidence 304 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: is for source or that whoever the mechanisms that have 305 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 1: to decide to make those definitions, who have all the 306 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: informations that it is needed if the US is calling 307 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,040 Speaker 1: for it, and yet the US is by definition and 308 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: not willing to have any of its own officials or 309 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: military members be tried on the same terms that that 310 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: that suggests it is political, and that devalues the term. Surely, well, 311 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: there's a lot of politics in all these issues. Of course, 312 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:20,119 Speaker 1: of course I would like that every country in the 313 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,959 Speaker 1: world is is a member of the i c UH 314 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 1: and that's not the DISH. And we have three of 315 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 1: the P five that are not ratifying the SEC and 316 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 1: the wrong statute. So there is an issue there, and 317 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 1: even Ukraine has not ratified the wrong institute. But but 318 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:43,960 Speaker 1: there are other ways, anyway to investigate identified perpetrators and 319 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: hold them account. You talked about the risks that might 320 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: come and the problems that could be exacerbated by rising 321 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 1: food and energy prices. In this region. We have seen 322 00:17:56,119 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: a surge in authoritarian tendencies. Nikara was the most recent example. 323 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 1: When you look at the region, what are you which 324 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: countries are you most worried about and how how do 325 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: you want to how do you think we can start 326 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 1: to redress that democratic deficit build trust as you mentioned earlier, Yeah, 327 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:21,199 Speaker 1: of course we are being following. I mean even before 328 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:25,399 Speaker 1: the war and before COVID, we have been following several 329 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: countries in the region and looking at the human right situation. 330 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 1: As you may know, these countries are like we have 331 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: been working strongly on Venezuela for for a long time, 332 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:42,360 Speaker 1: and we have been identifying there which are the issues, 333 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: the challenges, the problems, and also identifying which other possibilities 334 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 1: to to improve the protection and promotion of human rights. Uh. 335 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: I mean in Venezuela has a good economic growth that 336 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,360 Speaker 1: is welcome. It is key though that this grow needs 337 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,720 Speaker 1: to be used to ensure people can have an adequate 338 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:05,160 Speaker 1: standard of living. And I continue to encourage the lifting 339 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: of sectorial sanctions to contribute to reliving the needs of 340 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,879 Speaker 1: the most vulnerable people in Venezuela. I do believe that 341 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 1: sanction individual sanctions can play important role. But when you 342 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:18,640 Speaker 1: have sectorial sanctions, what it happens is that the people 343 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: who are the most vulnerable ones are the ones who 344 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: are affected because they're not enough money for supporting the 345 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: health system, the social protection system, the education and so on. 346 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:33,160 Speaker 1: On Nara, Yes, we have many people have been arrested 347 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: in the context of of one elections and these are 348 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:41,360 Speaker 1: extremely concerning. We have been calling the authority to release 349 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: all those avertuality chain UM. The government has continued to 350 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: cancel the legal status of society organizations and universities and 351 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:54,359 Speaker 1: we have also called authority to restore those status because 352 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 1: those organizations have been avituality dissolved or sanctioned. And of 353 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: course there is a new law that cons terms as 354 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:04,440 Speaker 1: a lot on engeo, further restricting the functioning of civil society, 355 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: contrary to the country's human rights obligations. I think Nicaragua 356 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: must remaining international agenda. Last March, the Humans Council adopted 357 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 1: resolution that allows my office to continue monitoring on reporting 358 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: on the human situation in the country and it established 359 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: a group of human rights experts with an accountability mandate 360 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 1: em parallel to the mandate of my office. UM. We 361 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 1: are also being concerned about the Salvador about the state 362 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,120 Speaker 1: of emergency, which led to more than thirty thousand people 363 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 1: being arrested and the subsequent amendment to criminal law and 364 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: criminal procedural law. I mean, we recognize I have to 365 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 1: say I've been haven't been in Offer myself. I understand 366 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: that security and how you deal with delinquency is a very, 367 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: very challenge challenging issue, and I recognize the challenges posed 368 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: by gang violence in sal Salvadore. But we have to 369 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 1: do things not only I mean, the intention can be good, 370 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 1: but we have to do it in a way that 371 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: you respect international humorous law. There's so many countries. I 372 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 1: think we could spend twenty minutes those and people will 373 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: be fascinated to hear what you think. But let me 374 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,719 Speaker 1: just come back on Venezuela, because many people were surprised 375 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: to see you recommend the lifting of sanctions last year 376 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:29,399 Speaker 1: against Venezuela, despite their not having been a significant improvement 377 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 1: in the situation. And I noticed that there have been 378 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: ninety three incidents that your Offers has seen related to 379 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: restrictions on Venezuela's civic and democratic space just since last autumn, 380 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 1: and yet you've said again that you are in favor 381 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: of lifting sanctions. Is that because you don't think they 382 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: are the right tool for Venezuela and do we use 383 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 1: them too much in other places? Well? As I mentioned 384 00:21:55,960 --> 00:22:02,879 Speaker 1: before Stefanie, we differentiate indie visual sanctions, sanctions to individual 385 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: people who you could think are responsible for violation of 386 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,640 Speaker 1: human rights or and they need to be held accountable, 387 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:14,360 Speaker 1: from sectorial sanctions. We are against sectorial sanctions, not only 388 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: in Venezuela, in everywhere because what happens at the sectorial 389 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 1: sanctions usually hurt the poorest. That I have to tell you. 390 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:29,159 Speaker 1: When I visited Nicara at Venezuela into southern nineteen I 391 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: spoke to people who are not a pro government and 392 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: mothers and doctors of hospitals or children hospitals who were 393 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: affected by the sanctions. Even though it's some sanctions are 394 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 1: supposed not to include medicine medical supplies, there is a 395 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: lot of overcompliance. Banks do not want to risk anything, 396 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: so what happened. For example, I was speaking to some 397 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,479 Speaker 1: some doctors. They have these children who needed a kidney 398 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 1: transplant and there was no possibility to do it in 399 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 1: the country, so they were sending these children children to 400 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 1: Italy or Argentina. But the banks will won't send the 401 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: money to those places, so they won't accept it and 402 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 1: many children die because of that. So that's what I mean. 403 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: I mean, when you're doing some sanction, you need to 404 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 1: think exactly who you are impacting, and usually you don't 405 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:22,360 Speaker 1: impact the powerful, impact the more vulnerable people. The dynamic 406 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 1: you mentioned is very visible in Afghanistan. Briefly on the 407 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: political prospects for Venezuela. What are you hoping will be 408 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: the political solution? Do you think you can have a 409 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: free and fair presidential election in four Well, I am 410 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: a chronic chronic optimistic, if I might say, because otherwise 411 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:48,120 Speaker 1: I will have to give up. I always say use 412 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 1: these words of Desmond Tuto, who used to say I'm 413 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 1: a prison of hope. And so I hope that parties 414 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 1: will sit together understanding that they need to think on 415 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: Venezuela as a whole and which could be the best 416 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: political dialogue to ensure that in twenty twenty four they 417 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: are fair to bearn and very participative elections. And I 418 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: hope this will be resumed soon. You mentioned the challenges 419 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:23,440 Speaker 1: of office. You're conscious in your criticisms that how challenging 420 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 1: it is to be. On the other side, we have 421 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:29,360 Speaker 1: seen new governments come in on a wave of optimism 422 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: in Peru, Ecuador, Honduras and certainly your own native country, Chile, 423 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:40,359 Speaker 1: and very rapidly lose support. If you look at the 424 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 1: new President of of Chile, Gabrielle Boreck, he seems to 425 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: have lost support very quickly. And so, as someone who's 426 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,880 Speaker 1: been in very much in that situation, what's your advice 427 00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: to him? How can he come through on on that 428 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: optimism that brought him to power. Well, I mean, first 429 00:24:57,800 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: of all, and I spoke to him that when I 430 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: was chilling summer, I told him there has been so 431 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: huge expectations on your government from enormous amount of people, 432 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: and I have to tell you, Mr Pressing, I told 433 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: him big expectations can never be met because usually there 434 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: are unrealistic expectations because people want changes but in a months, 435 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 1: in two months, but many of the more transformational changes 436 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: will take a bit longer. They had to deal with 437 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 1: issues that are very challenging for any government. COVID nineteen 438 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: is still covegn nenteen pandemic. The economy with the covination 439 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: and the consequences of COVID on the economy and the 440 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: employment UH and now the consequences of higher levels of 441 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: inflation due to the war. So clearly, I think for 442 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: any leader, this is a very challenging moment. My only 443 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:57,159 Speaker 1: recommendation could be always speak openly to the people, to 444 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 1: explain the challenges and explain what you're going to do 445 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,879 Speaker 1: to address these challenges, but on the other hand, to 446 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 1: to explain that there are no magical solutions. The other 447 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 1: thing that has happened, I guess is there's all this 448 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 1: process of a new Chilean constitution that's been going on 449 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: created also a lot of expectations. It was good because 450 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 1: the country through that has channeled the social outburst of 451 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 1: to South and nineteen in a democratic and participatory process, 452 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: but also something very interesting because a completely paritarian the 453 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 1: one fifty four members of the Constitutional Assembly are fifty 454 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 1: fifty women and men, and that's it's really new, and 455 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: it means that a lot of processes has included the 456 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 1: gender perspective and so on. But of course he has 457 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: taken time, and people want solutions now, wants changes now, 458 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: and it will be until the fourth of September when 459 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: there will be the referendum where this new constitution can 460 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: be approved or not by the people. So I think 461 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: they're leaving a lot of challenge. I think do you 462 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: think it would be approved? Do you think it will 463 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: be approved. I hope it will be approved. I think 464 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,119 Speaker 1: it should be approved. I think one of the challenges 465 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 1: that they have is to be able to communicate better 466 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 1: to the people so people can understand what is it about. 467 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,040 Speaker 1: Because some people are more concerned, of course, of working, 468 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:22,680 Speaker 1: having food, you know, the the normal concerns of somebody 469 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 1: and not being able to get in touch in detail 470 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: with these issues. But I think it's a great opportunity 471 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: and I hope it's approved. So we're going to run 472 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: out of time, but I had to ask you one question, 473 00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: especially given given your record in speaking up for for 474 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 1: women's rights. We've had big demonstrations in the US this 475 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 1: weekend over the potential for Supreme Court overturning abortion rights 476 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 1: in in in many states in the US. When you 477 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 1: look at the continent, some would say the biggest or 478 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 1: one of the larger democratic democratic deficits that's opening up 479 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: is potentially in the US with the constitution. They're becoming 480 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: quite a polarizing force. Um, do you think the U 481 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 1: s should perhaps take a leaf out of Chile's book 482 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 1: and have a have a constitutional Convention have some kind 483 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: of way to address this deficit. Well, let me tell 484 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 1: you first that the League document from the U. S. 485 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 1: Supreme Court does not constitute the final decision from the court. 486 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,199 Speaker 1: Uh And and I think that possible decisions taken at 487 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 1: the national level in the US to revert more than 488 00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: five decades of protection of sessional dicty health and rights 489 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 1: through raw and way are very concerning. And we're really 490 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 1: concerned about because we believe it could be a massive 491 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 1: setback for human women's right contrary to the international human 492 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: rights standards. Medium and women in the U S could 493 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: be affected by the decision, especially those with low income 494 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: and belonging to racial and ethnic minorities, because evidence showed 495 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 1: that highly restrictive laws have a disproportional impact of marginalized 496 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 1: group of women, in particular women living in poverty. Globally, 497 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: unsafe abortion is a didn't cause of maternal death, and 498 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,520 Speaker 1: evidence has shown that restrictive abortion laws do not reduce 499 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: incidence of abortion, but drive it underground make it more 500 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: likely to be unsafe. Do the US needs a constitutional process, Well, 501 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: I'm not sure there is appetite there for that. And 502 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 1: I suppose are the American cities of the one who 503 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: needs to answer that, because I know constitutions can open 504 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 1: many other issues that maybe they don't want to open 505 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: it right now the discussion. But I hope in this 506 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: issue that women's women's rights can be respected because we 507 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: do believe that even um, I mean, everybody can have options, choices, 508 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 1: and what states need to ensure that women have those options. 509 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: What state cannot do is to impose a certain perspective, 510 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 1: but needs to ensure that all women's according to their 511 00:29:54,640 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: own beliefs, religion or decisions on their own autonomy, on 512 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 1: their voices and so on, can have access to all 513 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: the different options, and not to try to ensure that 514 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 1: some things are not available, particularly to the most vulnerable 515 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: and poorists and marginalized groups of people in the country. 516 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: United Nations Human Rights Commissioner Dr Michelle Bachelor, thank you 517 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: so much for joining us. It's been it's been wonderful 518 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: to have you. Thank yourself. Fanny. Well, that's it for 519 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 1: this episode of Stephanomics. Next week will be in Davos 520 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 1: for the World Economic Forum. I don't know yet what 521 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 1: we'll be talking about, but I know it will be 522 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 1: different from Panama and Stoke on Trent. If you want 523 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 1: more economic news and analysis before then, check out the 524 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: Bloomberg News website and follow as Economics on Twitter. This 525 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: episode was produced by Megas Hendrickson even though you had 526 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,080 Speaker 1: COVID and Summer Saudi, with special thanks to Do To 527 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: Michelle Bachelet and the right Honorable Rishi Sunak MP. Mike 528 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: Sasso is executive producer of Stephanomics and the head of 529 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Podcast is francesco leav