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Speaker 1: My daughter Lucy and her twin brother. Of course, my

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Speaker 1: daughter is fourteen years old. Let it sink him. The

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Speaker 1: victims and the Gallaine Maxwell case are as young as

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Speaker 1: fourteen that we know of. How do I know there

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Speaker 1: are not other victims that we're younger than that? Think

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Speaker 1: about it Crime Stories with Nancy Grace today tomorrow. Every

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Speaker 1: weekday during the school year, my daughter and son go

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Speaker 1: out on the playground. This is one of the reasons

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Speaker 1: I drive by their school during recess because the Guillaine Maxwell,

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Speaker 1: Yes this highly educated, wasn't it Cambridge or Oxford that

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Speaker 1: she graduated? Oxford in Great Britain a university. People strive

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Speaker 1: to attain all the money, all the breeding, all the

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Speaker 1: matters means nothing because according to prosecutors and according to

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Speaker 1: witnesses and victims that I have spoken with, and I

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Speaker 1: believe them, she would actually troll the playground. Because in

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Speaker 1: New York, the schools their PS public school, Public School

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Speaker 1: PS number FORTYPS number one fifty three. They're in the city,

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Speaker 1: so they have the basketball courts and play areas right

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Speaker 1: there on the street. They may have a chain link

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Speaker 1: fence around them, but you can drive by and look

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Speaker 1: at the children twenty feet away playing and sitting there

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Speaker 1: having snacks at recess. According to witnesses, you would walk

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Speaker 1: around the playground, get out of a limo and go

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Speaker 1: over and strike up conversations with these little girls. Why why,

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Speaker 1: I've seen it a hundred times with my own eyes,

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Speaker 1: maybe a thousand, and all the cases I investigated and

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Speaker 1: prosecuted grooming. You befriend the child victim. They think you're

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Speaker 1: their friend. You give them money for the arcade, you

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Speaker 1: buy them ice creams, you take them shopping, and the

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Speaker 1: next thing you know, they're getting molested. That's what happens

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Speaker 1: fourteen years old. And of course now these ladies are

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Speaker 1: grown up. These girls are grown up, and they're in court,

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Speaker 1: and as you would predict, I know it's going to happen.

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Speaker 1: Makes me sick to my stomach. I know it's coming,

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Speaker 1: and it's happening right now. They are getting torn to

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Speaker 1: shreds on cross examination. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation

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Speaker 1: and Series XM one eleven. We read your questions, We

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Speaker 1: listen to your emails and phone calls. Let me know

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Speaker 1: what you think with me an all star panel to

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Speaker 1: try and make sense of what is happening in the

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Speaker 1: courtroom right now. But first of all, I want you

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Speaker 1: to take take a listen to our friend Mola Lenji

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Speaker 1: at CBS taking the stand as Jane to protect her identity.

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Speaker 1: The first alleged victim to testifying Galaine Maxwell's trial today,

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Speaker 1: said she was fourteen and frozen in fear during her

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Speaker 1: first sexual contact with Jeffrey Epstein. She said she'd meant

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Speaker 1: Epstein and Maxwell in nineteen ninety four while eating ice

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Speaker 1: cream at a summer arts camp in Michigan, telling a

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Speaker 1: packed courtroom that Maxwell befriended her then would sometimes be

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Speaker 1: in the room during sexual abuse that went on for years.

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Speaker 1: She seemed very casual, like it was normal, she said,

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Speaker 1: with Maxwell just a few feet away at the defense table,

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Speaker 1: but it did not seem normal to me. Jane fought

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Speaker 1: back tears when she described flying from her home in

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Speaker 1: Palm Beach to New Mexico, where she saw Maxwell and

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Speaker 1: was told Epstein wanted to see her. I felt my

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Speaker 1: heart sinking into my stomach, she said, her voice cracking,

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Speaker 1: because I didn't want to see him. Let me just

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Speaker 1: put it out there. I think this is the same

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Speaker 1: witness as said at age fourteen, Gallaine Maxwell had her

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Speaker 1: straddle straddle like you ride a horse, straddle Epstein's face

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Speaker 1: and had her, this fourteen year old girl twist his

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Speaker 1: and apples and with that Allen start panel. Jessica Pride

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Speaker 1: with me, sex assault lawyer with the Pride Firm. You

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Speaker 1: can find her at Victim Lawyer dot com. Doctor Teresa Gill, PhD,

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Speaker 1: professor's psychology, psychotherapist and author of Women Who Were Sex

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Speaker 1: Abused as Children Special guests Joining us for the first

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Speaker 1: time today, Detective Charles Duchamp with Beaumont Police Department Criminal

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Speaker 1: Investigations Division, Special Crimes Unit. That's a mouthful and a

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Speaker 1: first timer the hazing began. Joining me. Brian Yennis, Fox

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Speaker 1: News national correspondent who has been covering this case from

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Speaker 1: the get go. Brian, it makes me sick. It makes

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Speaker 1: my stomach burn when I think about these women getting

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Speaker 1: shredded on cross exam. But that is the law. Under

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Speaker 1: the sixth Amendment, you have a right to not only

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Speaker 1: a lawyer, but the right to confront translation cross examine

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Speaker 1: witnesses called against you. Do I like it? No? Is

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Speaker 1: that the law as interpreted from the Constitution? Yes, tell

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Speaker 1: me what's happening in court, Brian, and don't airbrush it.

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Speaker 1: I hate that. Just tell me what's happening. You think

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Speaker 1: I like looking into a camera and say a fourteen

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Speaker 1: year old girl straddled up stag's face and twisted as nipples. No,

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Speaker 1: I don't, but that's what happened. Hit me, Nancy. We

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Speaker 1: knew from the very beginning of this trial, during opening

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Speaker 1: statements what the defense was going to do here. In fact,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to read you the first line from the

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Speaker 1: defense on that day one about how they were going

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Speaker 1: to attack these accusers. Are going after gland Maxwell. The

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Speaker 1: first line from the lawyer of Bobby Sternham was this.

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Speaker 1: Ever since Eve was accused of tempting Adam for the Apple,

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Speaker 1: women have been blamed for the bad behavior of men,

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Speaker 1: and women are often villainized in pun more than the men,

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Speaker 1: ever are. I guess he's talking about Galaie Maxwell being funds.

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Speaker 1: He is he and not the girl victims that are

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Speaker 1: getting shredded on the stand. Go ahead, exactly right. What

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Speaker 1: they are doing is setting the stage that what the

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Speaker 1: prosecution is doing is going after Galan Maxwell because they

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Speaker 1: couldn't go after Jeffrey Epstein because they allowed him to

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Speaker 1: kill himself in a jail cell, and now she is

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Speaker 1: the scapegoat. They also said that they were going to

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Speaker 1: go after these accusers because of three M the three ms,

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Speaker 1: memory manipulation and money. They were going to go after

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Speaker 1: these accusers and say that their memory was faulty, that

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Speaker 1: they were manipulated because of money, money that some of

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Speaker 1: them have received, including the first woman who was on

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Speaker 1: who took the stand, which was Jane under the pseudo

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Speaker 1: name who. So she did accept five million dollars from

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Speaker 1: the victims Compensation fund, as did over a hundred other

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Speaker 1: victims through the Epstein estate. And I would like to

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Speaker 1: point out that's a double edged sword as far as

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Speaker 1: I'm concerned. Charles Deschamp, Detective Yeah, because as you were

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Speaker 1: hearing Brian Yennis Fox needs a national correspondent accurately report. Yes,

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Speaker 1: Jane not her true name, did take money from the

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Speaker 1: victims compensation fund. I mean, you know it's bad when

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Speaker 1: they have to create a multimillion dollar fund to pay

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Speaker 1: off all your child sex victims. Okay, So that said,

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Speaker 1: that's a double edged sword, and I hope the state's

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Speaker 1: listening because they got their hands full right now, just

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Speaker 1: in case they didn't think of this, I say it's

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Speaker 1: a double edged sword because of this. Yes she took

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Speaker 1: the money. Yes she can be cross examined on a

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Speaker 1: pecuniary or money interest in the outcome of a case.

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Speaker 1: But the fact that she was awarded compensation means that

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Speaker 1: another tribunal who runs that fund decided, yes, she is

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Speaker 1: a victim of Epstein's She's a real victim. So there

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Speaker 1: I would bawl that up and wind back and throw

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Speaker 1: that right back at the defense. So what do you

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Speaker 1: make of that, Charles, I would think, I mean, she

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Speaker 1: is a victim. She was, from what I've read, fourteen

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Speaker 1: years old when this started, which is which is a

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Speaker 1: very young age. Her mental as that of a child.

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Speaker 1: She's not capable of dealing with things. She has hormones

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Speaker 1: and stuff, but she's not able to deal with adult

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Speaker 1: type situations that she was placed into. And people that

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Speaker 1: that manipulate and prey upon children take advantage of that.

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Speaker 1: And that's what was done in this case, where she's

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Speaker 1: you know, was taking advantage of amongst no no telling

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Speaker 1: how many others that are probably afraid to come forward

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Speaker 1: because look what they're doing to this this Young Lady

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Speaker 1: Prime Stories with Nancy Grace. So Brian Yannis with me

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Speaker 1: from Foxney's national correspondent. Go ahead, tell me what else

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Speaker 1: is happening in court. Yeah, So, Jane, we're called meeting

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Speaker 1: Maxwell and Epstein in nineteen ninety four at the age

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Speaker 1: of fourteen at the Interlocan Summer Arts Camp. It's a

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Speaker 1: prestigious art academy in Michigan in which Jeffrey Epstein was

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Speaker 1: a donor. The prosecution brought somebody from the camp that

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Speaker 1: confirmed that both Epstein and Maxwell did go to that camp,

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Speaker 1: and that's where they first met Jane. At the time,

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Speaker 1: Jane her father recently died from leukemia and the family

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Speaker 1: was going into bankruptcy. And this is part of what

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Speaker 1: we've seen, are these accusations in which Maxwell and Epstein

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Speaker 1: were said to target girls, miners who were in families

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Speaker 1: that were either broken or going through financial hardship. At

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Speaker 1: that she was traveled between the ages of fourteen and

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Speaker 1: sixteen between Florida and New Mexico and New York. She

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Speaker 1: took part in orgies in which she says Maxwell took

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Speaker 1: part in most of those orgies. Okay, why why wait?

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Speaker 1: Wait wait? A fourteen year old girl being in an orgy.

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Speaker 1: I don't even say orgy around the twins. Okay, every

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Speaker 1: woman in this room right here, there's three of them,

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Speaker 1: are going and looking away. I wonder if the jury

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Speaker 1: is looking away, because that's that's a sign. When you

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Speaker 1: put up testimony or pictures or a diagram and you

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Speaker 1: see a drug, that means something. And everybody in this

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Speaker 1: room went when you said orgy, all right, don't just

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Speaker 1: throw the word orgy at me, Brian Yennis, what exactly

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Speaker 1: what orgy? Where? Who? What had that happened? So this

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Speaker 1: was in essential. What they would do is they brought

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Speaker 1: her in for one hundred dollars. They would say, let's

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Speaker 1: have sexualized massages. Maxwell. Maxwell would bring Um would bring

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Speaker 1: jam right here, getting a chest height go ahead. She

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Speaker 1: would bring h Gilan. Maxwell would bring in Jane into

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Speaker 1: the room and normalize sexual activities. They would have conversations

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Speaker 1: about sex. Maxwell would undress herself in front of Jane

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Speaker 1: uh to normalize the fact that they would be naked.

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Speaker 1: They would go into the room in which Epstein was

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Speaker 1: supposed to be getting sexualized massages. He would be naked.

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Speaker 1: She would then Um do things to him as he

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Speaker 1: was either you know, masturbating at the time when she

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Speaker 1: would do Jane, Jane would do sexual As to Epstein,

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Speaker 1: what would sexual masturbation? Uh, Stay would masturbate us. Epstein

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Speaker 1: would masturbate and touch her breasts as well as Cilan.

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Speaker 1: Maxwell would so touch Jamee's breast as well in this room.

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Speaker 1: That's that's what we know as to what the sexual

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Speaker 1: abuse was like. They would have all of a sudden.

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Speaker 1: She says that the massage table would turn into some

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Speaker 1: sort of orgy where there would be multiple people, other women,

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Speaker 1: model type women. This was a fourteen year old girl

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Speaker 1: at the time, and Galen Maxwell was oftentimes in the

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Speaker 1: room and she would also touch the fourteen year old,

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Speaker 1: mainly on her breasts. What is Maxwell doing when all

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Speaker 1: this testimony is coming out? Maxwell is taking notes on

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Speaker 1: post its. She's looking dead in the face, you know,

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Speaker 1: she's looking back and forth. She's looking at Jane, the

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Speaker 1: fourteen year old accuser. She's also looking at the jury,

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Speaker 1: and she is taking notes. She's paying attention. Like you

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Speaker 1: say that that like you want going to give her

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Speaker 1: a gold star because she's paying attention. Do her nails,

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Speaker 1: remember Simpson? O J. Simpson said there and took notes too.

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Speaker 1: I think he was writing I am screwed, but it

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Speaker 1: didn't turn out that way. Then he had Jodi Arius.

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Speaker 1: She was taking notes, looking like a librarian with her

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Speaker 1: beat glasses on. Yeah, they're all taking notes. What else

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Speaker 1: can they do? Go oh crap, I'm screwed. No, they

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Speaker 1: have to eat normal. Take a Listen to our cut eleven.

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Speaker 1: This is Michael Jennevici nine News, testifying under the pseudonym Jane.

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Speaker 1: She claims she was just fourteen years old when she

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Speaker 1: first suffered abuse at the hands of both Jeffrey Epstein

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Speaker 1: and Glaine Maxwell. The court heard how the pair befriended

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Speaker 1: her and invited her to Epstein's Palm Beach mansion before

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Speaker 1: eventually sexually abusing her, abuse that she claims lasted for years.

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Speaker 1: Glene Maxwell has pleaded not guilty to six charges, including enticing, transporting,

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Speaker 1: and trafficking girls to have sex with Jeffrey Epstein. The

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Speaker 1: first of the four victims to testify, Jane was adamant

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Speaker 1: that she wasn't just groomed by miss Maxwell, but that

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Speaker 1: she was physically abused by her as well, describing in

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Speaker 1: graphic details group orgies at Epstein's home while she was

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Speaker 1: aged between fourteen and sixteen. She then described the impact

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Speaker 1: that it's had on her adult life. How do you

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Speaker 1: navigate a healthy relationship when you have a broken compass.

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Speaker 1: It ruined my self esteem, my self worth. I didn't

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Speaker 1: know how men were supposed to treat me, and I

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Speaker 1: didn't know how I was supposed to reciprocate. You know,

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Speaker 1: I want to ask you. There's Brian Yannis joining me,

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Speaker 1: Fox and International correspondent. The name Emmy has come out

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Speaker 1: in trial. Jane, victim number one that we know of many,

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Speaker 1: many dozens of victims, says she was abused by Maxwell

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Speaker 1: and Epstein, forced to take part in sexualized massages involving adults.

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Speaker 1: One of the adults is named Emmy, as she had

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Speaker 1: a British accent. Now is she using the name Emmy

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Speaker 1: for it going Maxwell? Or is Amy another person? I

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Speaker 1: believe that this is probably another person. I do not

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Speaker 1: believe that this would be I mean, we have to

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Speaker 1: understand that Maxwell was in charge of the house, but

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Speaker 1: there were other women that were helping in setting epsteined

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Speaker 1: up with these women. So I would imagine that this

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Speaker 1: is another woman who was helping Apstein and Maxwell. I'm

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Speaker 1: quoting from an article. One of the other women to

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Speaker 1: take part in the orgy where everybody was taking part

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Speaker 1: in sex play was named Sophie. Jane agreed with the

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Speaker 1: defense that she quote knew the routine and that she

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Speaker 1: would quote make out with other girls during the intercourse.

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Speaker 1: Another woman who participated in the orgies was named Eva,

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Speaker 1: and when asked did she know the routine as well, Jane,

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Speaker 1: not her real name, said yes, you know. Jessica Pride,

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Speaker 1: a sex assault attorney with the Pride Law Firm, the

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Speaker 1: law is very clear, even with adult women. For many,

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Speaker 1: many years, the law insisted there'd be corroboration for a rape,

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Speaker 1: such as a bruise, bleeding from the vagina, a bloody lip,

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Speaker 1: torn clothing, something to corroborate the rape victim's story. That

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Speaker 1: is no longer the case. Corroboration in a rape case

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Speaker 1: is no longer required. So the fact that this child

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Speaker 1: didn't fight and scream and kick and claw and walk

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Speaker 1: out of the room beat up. You remember Lt. Lawrence Taylor,

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Speaker 1: Dancing with the Stars, huge NFL celebrity. When that little

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Speaker 1: girl walked out of his hotel room, she was beaten

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Speaker 1: not by him, but by her pimp to make her

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Speaker 1: go have sex with LT so that is not required

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Speaker 1: under the law because the child cannot consent to sex

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Speaker 1: crime stories with Nancy Grace, my question to you is

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Speaker 1: I anticipate the defense making a big deal out of

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Speaker 1: the fact that this child at the time fourteen, didn't

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Speaker 1: call police, wasn't bruised, wasn't beaten, didn't run from the

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Speaker 1: house screaming, didn't have torn clothes. I guarantee you that's

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Speaker 1: going to be insinuated. It's going to slip into the

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Speaker 1: defense like a snake. Essica and I agree, Nancy. However,

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Speaker 1: you got it right. Children can't consent, And another key

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Speaker 1: component to this is grooming. This child was groomed. It

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Speaker 1: didn't just happen the first day they metal stud he

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Speaker 1: dropped his pants and you know, masturbation occurred. No, it

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Speaker 1: was a series of boundary violations in which they did

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Speaker 1: nice things for the girl, took her on trips, they

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Speaker 1: usually give gifts, start to build a relationship. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of a slippery slope where then victims all of a

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Speaker 1: sudden one day find themselves in a place where they

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Speaker 1: freeze in fear because they're like wait, which just happened.

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Speaker 1: How did I just be his penis for the first time?

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Speaker 1: She was fourteen and said she saw a penis for

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Speaker 1: the first time and froze in fear. Now that's downs

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Speaker 1: like consent to you. No, And we know that the

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Speaker 1: props or the defense is going to argue, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: because she didn't fight, she didn't you know, run away,

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Speaker 1: she stayed there, she must have consented her compliance. No,

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Speaker 1: not true. And what we know is that eighty percent

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Speaker 1: of victims, eighty percent of my clients do exactly that

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Speaker 1: they freed in fear. That is how victims respond to trauma.

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Speaker 1: And so that doesn't mean she consented. She agreed even

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Speaker 1: if she participated, that's what she felt like she had

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Speaker 1: to do to survive the situation. So I don't think

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Speaker 1: that that in any way, shape or form means that

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Speaker 1: she is any way responsible for what happens. The grown

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Speaker 1: ups are responsible, the predators are responsible. Jes Lain Maxwell

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Speaker 1: is responsible. Let me give you an example of what

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Speaker 1: Jessica Price is talking about. When victims phrase, I tell

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Speaker 1: the story once, I'll tell it again. The other day,

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Speaker 1: the twins and I were walking our pound puppy, fat Boy,

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Speaker 1: and even though he's this big. He thinks he is

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Speaker 1: a Rottweiler or a Saint Bernard, so when we take

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Speaker 1: him for a walk, he tries to pick a fight

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Speaker 1: with every other dog that we pass. Well, he picked

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Speaker 1: a fight with two Rodwellers, and I don't know how

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Speaker 1: he did it, but he lunged and got out of

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Speaker 1: his leash. We changed, by the way, after that, he

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Speaker 1: had one of these leashes. Now he wears a vest,

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Speaker 1: so that young man is not going to be able

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Speaker 1: to get out of the leash again. Anyway, he went

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Speaker 1: straight between the two Rodwellers and started a fight with them. Well,

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Speaker 1: I ran over there, my son ran behind me, and

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Speaker 1: we got the dog back. Nobody was hurt. I turned

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Speaker 1: around and my daughter Lucy was just standing there. I said,

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Speaker 1: you did not help me try to get the dog, Lucy,

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Speaker 1: and she said, Mom, I froze. I was so scared.

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Speaker 1: I froze. And you know what, she was standing in

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Speaker 1: the same exact exact spot. She sure was. She froze.

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Speaker 1: And I am just imagining this little girl freezing at

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Speaker 1: the time, wanting the money, her family is going bankrupt,

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Speaker 1: with the dad dying in leukemia, wanting the money, wanting

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Speaker 1: the new clothes, or whatever it is the money would

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Speaker 1: buy that all the other girls had at school. I

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Speaker 1: want to take a listen to our cut twenty one.

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Speaker 1: This is Mola Leni with CBS News. Or you could

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Speaker 1: hear the discomfort in her voices. She testified the size

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Speaker 1: and the deep breaths before answering questions, at times getting

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Speaker 1: emotional and often sounding deflated, especially when she was recalling

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Speaker 1: the more graphic details. The defense will continue their cross

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Speaker 1: examination of Jane. Well, let's talk about the cross examination,

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Speaker 1: but first take a listen to our cut fourteen my

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Speaker 1: longtime friend, Shep Smith at CNBC the alleged victim using

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Speaker 1: the pseudonym Jane in court. She's accusing Jeffrey Epstein's one

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Speaker 1: time girlfriend of grooming her, sexually abusing her, and forcing

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Speaker 1: her to engage in sex acts with Epstein. But in

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Speaker 1: cross examination, Maxwell's lawyers pressed her to recall exact dates

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Speaker 1: and facts from decades ago. Jane had said at one

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Speaker 1: point in her testimony that Epstein flew her to New

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Speaker 1: York on his private jet to see The Lion King

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Speaker 1: on Broadway in nineteen ninety four. Maxwell's lawyer questioned her

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Speaker 1: on how she could have done that when The Lion

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Speaker 1: King didn't debut until nineteen ninety seven. Jane testified she'd

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Speaker 1: been incorrect in her timeline. Oh wow, they scored a point,

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Speaker 1: didn't they, Doctor Theresa gil Hey, gotcha. The Lion King

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Speaker 1: didn't start till ninety seven, and you said ninety four.

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Speaker 1: Who cares. I'm more concerned about her seeing Epstein's penis

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Speaker 1: for the first time first time when she's fourteen years old,

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Speaker 1: than when she saw The Lion King. But you know

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Speaker 1: that's what happens to victims on the stand, doctor gill, Well,

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Speaker 1: I think what's interesting is that when I think that

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Speaker 1: Elaine and Edistein were kind of masterful because what they

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Speaker 1: did was during the abuse phase, they would actually talk

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Speaker 1: to her about all the things that they could give her. So,

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Speaker 1: what do you want to do in your career? What

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Speaker 1: are your dreams? We can help you at that. We

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Speaker 1: know people. Here is money for your mother who needs

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Speaker 1: money and is desperate so she can take care of

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Speaker 1: the family. So they mixed the the sexual exploitation with

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Speaker 1: the promise of having the things that you want and

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Speaker 1: being able to financially take care of your mom. So

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Speaker 1: of course she's going to be confused of course that's

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Speaker 1: going to be mixed messages and she's going to freeze

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Speaker 1: and not know what to do. And they were just

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Speaker 1: masterful at what they did. Doctor Yale, You've just given

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Speaker 1: me a very horrible flash to a case that I tried.

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Speaker 1: And the victim was a nine year old little boy

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Speaker 1: and he was very learning disabled. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: I had this happened a couple of times with children

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Speaker 1: on the stand. He put his head down and I

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Speaker 1: had to go up and try to not tell I

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Speaker 1: can't tell him what to say, but you know, take

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Speaker 1: his hand and try to coerce cajole him into continuing

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Speaker 1: his testimony. But nine years old, and his mom worked

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Speaker 1: single mom, and as I told you, learning disabled, doctor Gill.

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Speaker 1: And one thing he loved he could play video games.

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Speaker 1: I don't mean like the kind my son plays where

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Speaker 1: he sits as his what he desktop and plays games

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Speaker 1: and his little friends are on the cell phone. They're

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Speaker 1: all playing the same game. You would go to an arcade,

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Speaker 1: like at the mall or something, and you'd put in

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Speaker 1: a quarter and you'd play until you lost. Well, that's

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Speaker 1: something that he could do and he understood and he

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Speaker 1: loved playing it. So his mom would let him go. Well,

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Speaker 1: one day she found a ten dollar bill folded up

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Speaker 1: in his front pocket, a crisp ten dollar bill. Well,

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Speaker 1: she had to find out where it came from. And

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Speaker 1: here's the rest of the story. A grown man. Many

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Speaker 1: people thought he was a very attractive I, of course,

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Speaker 1: did not find him the least bit handsome. Great job,

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Speaker 1: college degree, wife, family, the works. Of course, he was

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Speaker 1: divorced and living alone. But he would get roles of

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Speaker 1: quarters and give them to this little boy who could

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Speaker 1: barely speak, and then would take him back to his

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Speaker 1: home which was near the arcade. And when that home

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Speaker 1: was searched pursuit to warrant by the bed was child porn,

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Speaker 1: half full container, a vasoline, and all sorts of sex paraphernalia.

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Speaker 1: I had this boy examined. This child had been raped

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Speaker 1: so many times. Well, okay, I'm not going to go

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Speaker 1: into it, but let me just say it was apparent

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Speaker 1: immediately upon examination that this child was a rape victim.

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Speaker 1: And you're talking that was for a roll of quarters.

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Speaker 1: This child that couldn't even talk had been being anally

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Speaker 1: raped for who knows how many months for a roll

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Speaker 1: of quarters. And here you're taking a girl whether she's

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Speaker 1: fourteen or fifteen, to fly on a private jet to

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Speaker 1: see what was that she saw the lion king cat.

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Speaker 1: Excited my children were when they got to see Wicked

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Speaker 1: on Broadway. It was like they were They still talk

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Speaker 1: about it. I just thank he also co signed for

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Speaker 1: an apartment for the mother and her and the brothers

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Speaker 1: to have a place in Manhattan. So he was giving

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Speaker 1: a lot, not only to this little girl, and getting

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Speaker 1: a lot crime stories with Nancy Grace. Take a listen

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Speaker 1: to our thirteen. This is Aaron Oldris Chef ABC this morning.

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Speaker 1: The first accuser to testify in the Chris Mindal sex

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Speaker 1: trafficking case against Gillenne Maxwell, former girlfriend of convicted sex

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Speaker 1: offender Jeffrey Epstein, will be back on the stand. Defense

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Speaker 1: attorney's continuing cross examination of the woman known only by

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Speaker 1: the pseudonym Jane Tuesday. Jane telling the jury she was

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Speaker 1: fourteen when she had her first sexual encounter with Epstein,

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Speaker 1: describing in graphic detail the explicit moments with him that

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Speaker 1: left her frozen in fear and to our cut fifteen

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Speaker 1: Chef Smith CNBC. The lawyer also tried to suggest Jane

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Speaker 1: was unreliable and might be telling her story for money.

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Speaker 1: She pounced on the fact that the alleged victim acts

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Speaker 1: and soap operas, asking whether she's accustomed to memorizing lines,

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Speaker 1: able to cry on command, and seeks drama. The lawyer

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Speaker 1: also questioned why Jane didn't come forward with all the

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Speaker 1: details of her story much earlier, but Jane later testified

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Speaker 1: I was sitting in a room full of strangers and

428
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: telling them the most shameful, deepest secrets I had been

429
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: carrying around with me everywhere. It was too difficult, too difficult, emotionally,

430
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: too difficult on every level. Bran and s joining us

431
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: from Fox Knees, tell me about the cross examine of

432
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 1: cross examination of Jane, Well, just as you heard from

433
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: Chef's reporting there, the really one of the harder parts

434
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 1: was when they were asking her about her acting jobs.

435
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 1: This is somebody who's been acting for over twenty two

436
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 1: twenty two years and soap operas and alike, in a

437
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: pretty successful career. And the attorney goes, you know, you

438
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 1: were a cancer patient, a car crash victim, you played

439
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 1: a prostitute even and Jane says, well, that was not

440
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,320
Speaker 1: my favorite role. As to say, you know, why are

441
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 1: you bringing that that roll up, and she did say

442
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 1: because ultimately she was then pressed as to why she

443
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 1: took too long, and again Jane said because it was

444
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 1: too difficult. It was too difficult, emotionally, too difficult on

445
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 1: every level. And during this cross examination, you know, they

446
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 1: really pounced on the fact that she had spoken the

447
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: FBI in twenty nineteen and in twenty twenty, and during

448
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: that cross examination she had not told she told the

449
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 1: FBI that her memory was a little bit fondy as

450
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 1: to whether or not Galan Maxwell was actually in the

451
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: room when Epstein molested her. And they also recounted the

452
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: fact that she wasn't sure if Maxwell had ever touched her,

453
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 1: And of course that is different than what her testimony

454
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 1: is now, which is that Maxwell was there most of

455
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 1: the time, and that Maxwell had had touched her on

456
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 1: multiple occasions, including an orgies and on her breasts. So

457
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 1: this was really at the heart of what I think

458
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 1: the defense was going to continue to do to each

459
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: and every one of these accusers that come up. We

460
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: still have three more left trying to poke holes, particularly

461
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 1: on the issue of memory, as in as if you

462
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 1: know you do not have any evidence in terms of

463
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: documentary evidence, to Corrobory. What you're saying, your memory is

464
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 1: more than twenty years in the past, you were a child,

465
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: and how can we rely on that, especially when there

466
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: are these inconsistencies over the last few years. It's it's

467
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: very clear that this is what they're going to continue

468
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: to do. And you know, I don't know if it'll

469
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 1: work on the Jerry. I think, Nancy, you've seen this

470
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 1: a lot more than I have as to whether or

471
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: not this will work. It's obviously a big gamble in

472
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 1: their part. Wow, the way you were saying that, Brian

473
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 1: felt like I was right there in the courtroom. Well,

474
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 1: this is when the state needs corroboration. As I said earlier,

475
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 1: Is it required under the law? Nope, it's not required

476
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 1: under the law. But will it help solidify this case

477
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 1: for the jury? And that's why we need this pilot

478
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 1: that piloted the captained a private plane for Epstein where

479
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: he would fly these young girls all over the world.

480
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut eighteen. This is Mike Sacks,

481
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: Fox five, New York. Earlier in the day, Epstein's longtime

482
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 1: private pilot gave the jury detailed descriptions of Maxwell's and

483
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 1: Epstein's various homes, as well as Epstein's three planes he

484
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: owned from nineteen ninety four to two thousand and four,

485
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 1: the time period the government says Maxwell trafficked and abused

486
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 1: for different underage girls in each of those locations, But

487
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: the pilot also said he never saw any female he

488
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: thought was under the age of twenty on a plane

489
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 1: without a parent, instead describing the fourteen year old Jane

490
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: as a quote mature woman with piercing powder blue eyes. Okay,

491
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 1: what does that mean? He thought that this witness who's

492
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: on the stand right now, Jane was a grown woman.

493
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 1: Explained that to me, if you don't mind, Brian, if

494
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 1: he was very familiar with Epstein's accuser, Virginia Jufrey or

495
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: Virginia Roberts, who's pursuing Jeffrey who was suing Gland Maxwell

496
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: in the civil case, but when asked about Jane, he

497
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: was only that there was a familiarity with Jane, but

498
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 1: that he couldn't pinpoint her particularly. You know. He essentially

499
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: said that he recalled seeing Jane coming into the cockpit

500
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 1: with Jeffrey Epstein, but that he couldn't guarantee that he

501
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: transported her somewhere, you know, he says that he can

502
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 1: remember places people like President Clinton, but he can't remember

503
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 1: or the passenger necessarily, you know, in that kind of specificity.

504
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 1: So he also said that he never saw any sexual

505
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: acts on the airplane, but he flying the airplane, right.

506
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 1: He said that sometimes he would go down into the

507
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 1: airplane and he never every time he left the cockpit,

508
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 1: you know, he never saw anything. But he did say that, yeah,

509
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 1: we did fly a lot of people, and you know,

510
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 1: ultimately he confirmed that Galen Maxwell was somebody who was

511
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 1: his number two right hand woman, and that there were

512
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 1: people on these flights. But in terms of being the

513
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,319
Speaker 1: smoking gun, in terms of saying, you know, I saw

514
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 1: Jane and she was in fact underage and was traveling this,

515
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 1: he didn't necessarily offer that. What he was able to

516
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:47,760
Speaker 1: offer was, yes, Jane was somebody who was in our world.

517
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 1: I'd noticed her. I know that this was somebody that

518
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,719
Speaker 1: knew Maxwell and Epstein. I did fly people sometimes they

519
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: were underage, but they were with parents when I understood it.

520
00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: So at least there was the corroboration that these flights exist,

521
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: did that there was a relationship, But in terms of

522
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 1: him having witnessed anything that would cross the line. He

523
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 1: wasn't able to offer that. But you know what to you,

524
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: Jessica Pribe, you're a veteran trial lawyer, and I'll circle

525
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 1: back with our detective Charles de shamp. We don't need

526
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 1: him to identify her the victim or say he observed

527
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 1: them having sex. We need him to verify that he

528
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: flew that private plane with Epstein. I don't care about

529
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: Trump and Clinton. I'm not on their case today talking

530
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:32,240
Speaker 1: about was he transporting girls from one place to the next.

531
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 1: Everybody wants to talk about Trump and Clinton. You know,

532
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 1: I notice all the Republicans talk about Clinton and all

533
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 1: the Democrats talk about Trump being on the plane. Don't care.

534
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 1: I care about these girls. What in the hay was

535
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 1: Epstein doing flying these young girls around without their parents. So,

536
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,839
Speaker 1: Jessica Pride, the pilot did what we wanted him to do.

537
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 1: He described at Stein's planes, and he described flying girls

538
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 1: who didn't know if they were under age or not,

539
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: and he remembered victim one. That's exactly right, because the

540
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,439
Speaker 1: charges that Maxwell is being charged with are for sex

541
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 1: trafficking and transporting you know, women across state lines for

542
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 1: the purpose of, you know, having for them to be

543
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 1: molested by Epstein. So now that he places Jane in

544
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 1: the plane, you've got it. You've got what you need.

545
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,720
Speaker 1: The prosecutor did a good job, and the pilot served

546
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 1: his purpose. You know, earlier they keep talking about, oh,

547
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:43,360
Speaker 1: this is about the victims coming forward and they're financially motivated,

548
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 1: they're trying to get money, that this is why they're testifying. No,

549
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 1: Jane already got money from the victims compensation fund and

550
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 1: people really need to read the fine print. The fine

551
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 1: print says, if you take money from victims compensation funds,

552
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 1: you can't get money from anywhere else, not a single dollar.

553
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 1: You have to dismiss the cases against Displaying Maxwell, all

554
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 1: civil cases against her from the victims who took money

555
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: from the fund, had to drop them, had to dismiss them.

556
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:18,240
Speaker 1: So even it's shocking to me that Epstein really wanted

557
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 1: to protect his rich friends. He wanted to still protect

558
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 1: Displaying by hey, take my money, but then you can't

559
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 1: go after anyone else, And that is crazy to me.

560
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 1: So she has no financial motive right now. And I

561
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: can tell you that from the thousands of clients I've represented,

562
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 1: it's not about the money. No amount of money is

563
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:44,440
Speaker 1: worth being sexually abused. She will live with a lifetime

564
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 1: of trauma and the medical build And another thing is

565
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 1: she only got five million dollars. I mean five million

566
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 1: dollars is a lot of money. But out of one

567
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty five million that they put out, they

568
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,360
Speaker 1: did have two hundred and twenty five people apply for

569
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 1: that money. And the valuators said, we think she's got

570
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: a case and we're going to give her money. And

571
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,280
Speaker 1: I think that's very relevant. I think the prosecution, since

572
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,360
Speaker 1: the defense brought it up on cross exam, should hammer it,

573
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 1: hammer it. I would choose that I've spit it out

574
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 1: right on the defense table and didn't Brian Ennis just

575
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 1: say that it came out that Gallaine Maxwell is at

576
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 1: was ep seins a number two, number two, his right

577
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 1: hand person. So Charles the shamp, there you have it.

578
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,880
Speaker 1: She was the one booking those planes. Now, when you

579
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 1: take your private plane, you got to say who the

580
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 1: passengers are, so some identification. You want to tell me

581
00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 1: she's his number two and she didn't know who was

582
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 1: on that plane. Be asked to Shamp, well, I can

583
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,479
Speaker 1: tell you this, and I have talked to you about

584
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: Texas law and how we charge parties here when we

585
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 1: have these time the trafficking type cases and individuals that

586
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 1: we can through evidence which is what you got, their

587
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: testimony and other other things that you can forms of

588
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 1: evidence you could use. If you can prove that those

589
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: other parties you know, participated knew about what was going

590
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 1: on with it, then they're they're capable of being charged

591
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: along with it with just with everyone else. And we

592
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 1: do agree, shan't agree. I couldn't agree more. As a

593
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 1: matter of fact, I'm so mad right now I can

594
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: chew a nail and a half. We wait as justice

595
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 1: some thoughts. Nancy Grace signing off, goodbye friend,