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Speaker 1: Body bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Some of the names

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Speaker 1: that I'm about to give to you kind of contra

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Speaker 1: up all kinds of warm feelings from the perspective of

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Speaker 1: fine food or food that I would consider comfort food. Button, chantraline, cremini, shaitaki.

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Speaker 1: One of my favorites Orscher, snowpuff, portobella. I love a

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Speaker 1: good portobella sandwich, grilled porcini morale for the you high

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Speaker 1: dollar types out there. But you know, the name that

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Speaker 1: is not included on this list is a scientific name.

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Speaker 1: First off, it's called Amanita falloid, otherwise known as a

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Speaker 1: death cap, the death cap ushroom. A mushroom is so

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Speaker 1: very lethal that once it is ingested, there is a

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Speaker 1: high probability that death will visit you in less than

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Speaker 1: about twenty four hours. Today we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: arguably one of the more bizarre cases that we've heard about.

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Speaker 1: We're going to explore some of the issues that may

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Speaker 1: have occurred in a town in Victoria, Australia. I'm Joseph

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Speaker 1: s Gott Morgan and this is body bags. I love mushrooms, Dave,

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Speaker 1: I love them. This is how I love them. I

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Speaker 1: love them generally. Button mushrooms. I like to take them

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Speaker 1: fresh ones. Now. I don't like them out of the

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Speaker 1: can because they're too salty, and they've got that funky

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Speaker 1: color that's almost gray. It's not very appetizing. But I

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Speaker 1: like to take button mushrooms and sautee them in butter,

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Speaker 1: onions and garlic, and then once I have them just right,

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Speaker 1: and after I have grilled my rib I steak, like

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Speaker 1: to take them and pour them over the top of

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Speaker 1: that steak and maybe have a few on the side

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Speaker 1: and enjoy that flavor, that robust flavor with a grilled steak.

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Speaker 1: I don't know that there's anything better. Maybe a hamburger

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Speaker 1: with salted mushrooms. But boy, I'll tell you what. You

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Speaker 1: bring out the mushrooms and you really really make my

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Speaker 1: mouth start. A matter of fact, hang on, we'll get

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Speaker 1: my handkerchief out right now. Kind of my mouth is

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Speaker 1: kind of watering.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're kind of freaking me out. How deep you've

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Speaker 2: gone into this, Joe. I'm a little concerned. But the

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Speaker 2: story has gained worldwide attention for its simplicity and diabolical nature.

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Speaker 2: Here it is in a nutshell. Joe Aaron and Simon

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Speaker 2: Patterson have been married for several years. They've got two children. However,

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Speaker 2: the marriages are working out, Aaron and Simon split up. Aaron,

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Speaker 2: hoping for reconciliation, reaches out and invites Simon over for

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Speaker 2: a big lunch with Simon. She invites her exen laws

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Speaker 2: soon to be exend laws, Gail and Don Patterson. She

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Speaker 2: also invites Heather Wilkinson and Ian Wilkins. That would be Wilkinson,

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Speaker 2: that would be Simon's and uncle. Ian Wilkinson is a pastor.

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Speaker 2: He's a much beloved pastor. And I think Aaron, in

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Speaker 2: her mind's I was thinking his family will be in

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Speaker 2: favor of staying together from that generation, if you stay

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Speaker 2: together for the kids or whatever. But what she doesn't

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Speaker 2: know is that Simon's family doesn't trust her. They really

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Speaker 2: are a little weirded out by Aaron Patterson. So as

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Speaker 2: this lunch is going on, this lunch of beef Wellington

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Speaker 2: and mushrooms prepared for by a mushroom connoisseur, somebody who

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Speaker 2: knows how to forge, meaning find mushrooms out in the field.

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Speaker 2: She knows the right stores to shop for the right mushrooms.

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Speaker 2: She actually prepares this beef wellington garnished with mushrooms for

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Speaker 2: her soon to be accent loss, thinking there will be

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Speaker 2: a reconciliation, but instead, Simon doesn't show up and the

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Speaker 2: family basically turns on her in her mind's eye, and

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Speaker 2: they are not in favor of the dude getting backed together.

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Speaker 2: What happens next is the reason this story has gone worldwide.

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Speaker 2: Of the five adults sitting in that table partaking of

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Speaker 2: beef wellington garnish with mushrooms, three of them end up

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Speaker 2: dead and one ends up in ICU waiting on a

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Speaker 2: liver transplant. Only one was able to walk away from

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Speaker 2: that table. That person was Aaron Patterson.

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Speaker 1: I find it interesting that she would prepare a meal

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Speaker 1: for these individuals, and it was within a very short

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Speaker 1: period of tom that you've got these individuals who begin

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Speaker 1: to display gastro intestinal discomfort.

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Speaker 2: They were straight up poisoned at lunch. That's what I'm

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Speaker 2: going to be honest with you. We could beat around

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Speaker 2: the bush all day long. But the reason I pointed

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Speaker 2: out that Simon wasn't there and that the family was

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Speaker 2: not in favor of them getting back together is Aaron

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Speaker 2: knew that when they got there, she immediately knew that

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Speaker 2: this was not going the way that she wanted. And

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Speaker 2: next thing, you know, beef wellington and mushrooms deserved and

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Speaker 2: everybody gets sick.

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Speaker 1: Well, let me ask you. Did Aaron get sick?

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Speaker 2: Joe, I'm glad you asked that. I feel like Colombo.

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Speaker 2: According to Aaron, she got sick and that she too

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Speaker 2: went to the hospital. But here's the deal. You've got

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Speaker 2: these four elderly people.

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Speaker 1: Oh and by the way, just let me interject this.

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Speaker 1: The pastor you mentioned, this guy's on the list for

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Speaker 1: a liver transplant, so he's like in dire straits.

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Speaker 2: Well, you may as well go ahead and say it.

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Speaker 2: The other three are dead, Joe. They died, and this guy,

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Speaker 2: the pastor. The only reason he's alive is anybody. Ian

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Speaker 2: Wilkinson is alive by the grace of God. That's the

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Speaker 2: only way you can look. They all eat the same thing,

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Speaker 2: so they all get sick and die. Ian, as you mentioned,

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Speaker 2: liver transplanted. The guy's barely hanging on. And Aaron Wilkinson,

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Speaker 2: she's not on her deathbed, she's not in the hospital.

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Speaker 2: She claims she got sick, and there is a report

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Speaker 2: that she did go to the hospital. If you and

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Speaker 2: I go out to dinner tonight and you make meat mushrooms.

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Speaker 2: I could probably go to the hospital and take a

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Speaker 2: good sick I could go in and complain about my stomach,

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Speaker 2: and I could do all of that for at least

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Speaker 2: twelve hours they put me in. Just by complaining alone,

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Speaker 2: I can make myself throw up, tell them anything I

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Speaker 2: needed to tell them. So her being in the hospital

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Speaker 2: doesn't mean very much to me because she doesn't have

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Speaker 2: any of the other symptoms everybody else has.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and most of the time, if there's a toxic

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Speaker 1: substance that everybody is ingesting and it's impacting this many people,

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Speaker 1: there's a high probability that if anyone ingested it, they're

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Speaker 1: going to be equally as sick. As a medical legal

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Speaker 1: death investigator, in forensics, one of the things that we

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Speaker 1: look for is kind of from an epidemiological standpoint, you

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Speaker 1: look for or urgens of diseases. You look for origins

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Speaker 1: of medical conditions and what brought that back, particularly when

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Speaker 1: you're thinking about, say, for instance, a major loss of

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Speaker 1: life event, or you're thinking about something that brings about

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Speaker 1: an illness. Just think about any kind of pandemic. But

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Speaker 1: here we have, in almost a microcosm, where you have

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Speaker 1: multiple people, three of which die, and you have an

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Speaker 1: additional individual that is now on life support with his

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Speaker 1: liver essentially destroyed. We approach this from a medical model

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Speaker 1: when we're investigating these kinds of cases. It's not like commonly,

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Speaker 1: when you begin to think about gunshot wound or stab

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Speaker 1: wound or bludgeoning, you can kind of trace that back

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Speaker 1: to a single instrument that is used. But it's not

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Speaker 1: so simple when you begin to think about something that

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Speaker 1: is so toxic and incompatible with life, you really have

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Speaker 1: to put your thinking cap on and begin to examine

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Speaker 1: what you have before you and trying to determine because

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Speaker 1: it's not necessarily going to just immediately present itself. You

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Speaker 1: can't look at a body and say, well, look, this

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Speaker 1: toxin is present. Now. There are certain things that you

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Speaker 1: can look for, particularly like with heavy metal poisoning, for instance,

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Speaker 1: you can see changes in the body and the pallor

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Speaker 1: and all those sorts of things, nail beds and all

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Speaker 1: those things that we look for. But if you're talking

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Speaker 1: about something perhaps like a poison mushroom, that's going to

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Speaker 1: take a bit more time to understand. Because as many cases,

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Speaker 1: as many kinds of toxic events that emergency room personnel

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Speaker 1: have to deal with that walk through the door, and

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Speaker 1: clinical personnel from a treatment standpoint, long term treatment, they

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Speaker 1: don't encounter poison vegetation like this, and certainly not something

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Speaker 1: as glaring as a poison mushroom.

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Speaker 2: When I think about, what would I know if I've

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Speaker 2: sit down to eat and you're describing how much you

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Speaker 2: love the mushroom and you sit down to eat, would

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Speaker 2: they taste different? Do poison mushrooms taste different than non

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Speaker 2: poisonous mushrooms?

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Speaker 1: No, I mean, and listen, I think probably a discerning

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Speaker 1: person that is really into mushrooms. You think about somebody

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Speaker 1: that forages for mushrooms. There are different textures and my

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Speaker 1: family are big on chanterline mushrooms. They love them, they

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Speaker 1: cook with them, they wait for these seasons to come in,

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Speaker 1: and they all have different textures and many of them

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Speaker 1: will be described as being kind of light and others

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Speaker 1: will be described literally as being very beefy when you

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Speaker 1: eat them, And a lot of that has to do

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Speaker 1: with texture and flavor as well. So it's like anything

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Speaker 1: else in the world, whether it's a bottle of wine

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Speaker 1: or a cigar, everybody has different things that they like,

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Speaker 1: and mushrooms are no different. But for this particular species

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Speaker 1: that we're actually talking about with the mushroom, and just

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Speaker 1: so you know, from Jump Street, we know that something

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Speaker 1: is afoot because the authority is actually identified mushroom as

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Speaker 1: a species that is referred to as the death cap mushroom,

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Speaker 1: and it's highly toxic. But here's the thing. It has

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Speaker 1: to be ingested in order for it to do harm

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Speaker 1: to you. So it's not what we refer to as

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Speaker 1: a transdermal thing. There are certain species of plant life

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Speaker 1: in the world in which we encounter that when you

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Speaker 1: touch it, it can be transdermal. You know, you can

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Speaker 1: absorb it through your skin. And keep in mind a

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Speaker 1: mushroom is not necessarily a plant like we think of.

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Speaker 1: It's actually a fungus that's growing out of the earth

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Speaker 1: like this, and the death cap mushroom actually has kind

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Speaker 1: of this very interwoven network beneath the surface of the

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Speaker 1: earth that it's growing through. So you'll have multiple of

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Speaker 1: these sprouts coming up, but it's very distinctive. And this

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Speaker 1: is the thing. The wife in this particular case Aaron.

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Speaker 1: She's known as a forager, and so one of the

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Speaker 1: hallmarks or a really good forager from mushrooms is that

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Speaker 1: you understand speed, you understand the way things look. And

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Speaker 1: I beg any of you within the sound of my

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Speaker 1: voice to go and actually take a look at the

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Speaker 1: different species of mushrooms out there, and each one of

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Speaker 1: them are very, very distinctive. And the most common is

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Speaker 1: the button mushroom. It's white. Sometimes they're referred to as

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Speaker 1: white mushrooms around kind of a bulbous head the death

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Speaker 1: cap mushroom, though, Dave, this should be your first warning.

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Speaker 1: The cap itself spreads out rather wide. Think of a

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Speaker 1: rather substantial miniature umbrella, okay, And it's the thickness of

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Speaker 1: it is not as thick as, say, for instance, relatively

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Speaker 1: speaking as a portobello or a button mushroom. The cap

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Speaker 1: on it is kind of thin. But here's the thing.

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Speaker 1: It has this luminescent green color. When you see it

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Speaker 1: that first off, it doesn't look appetizing at all. I

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Speaker 1: know you don't like mushrooms, and none of them look appetizing.

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Speaker 1: But if you come across something that's green other than

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Speaker 1: maybe a green apple granny smith are green grapes, you're

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Speaker 1: not necessarily going to grab it. Up and stick in

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Speaker 1: your mouth. Well, and for somebody that does this, even

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Speaker 1: as a hobbyist, they're going to look at this thing

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Speaker 1: and say, you know what, that's probably something that I

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Speaker 1: ought to stay away from. Or they're going to look

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Speaker 1: at it and say, oh my gosh, that's a death

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Speaker 1: cap mushroom. We not only do I need to stay

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Speaker 1: away from it, I need to warn everybody that might

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Speaker 1: be in my little group that goes out and forges

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Speaker 1: for mushrooms that there are death cap mushrooms here. We

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Speaker 1: need to stay away from them.

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Speaker 2: Here we are, at this time and place where you've

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Speaker 2: got a forager. She is an expert on these things.

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Speaker 2: She knows what she's doing when it comes to mushrooms.

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Speaker 2: We've got four people at a lunch that doesn't go

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Speaker 2: her way, and all the adults at the table are

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Speaker 2: sick except for Aaron the Patterson, the woman who prepared it.

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Speaker 2: Her ex husband. Well, I don't like calling somebody X

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Speaker 2: when they're only separated, but I don't think there's any

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Speaker 2: real chance they're going to get back together. But they

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Speaker 2: are currently not together. Simon has no interest and getting

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Speaker 2: back together with his wife Aaron. And yet now we

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Speaker 2: find out and this is something that investigators pulled out.

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Speaker 2: How did these people get sick? Did you feed them

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Speaker 2: these mushrooms? Well, they started looking back in history. Has

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Speaker 2: she done this before? Do we have any other people

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Speaker 2: getting sick when she cooks? Sure enough? May twenty twenty two,

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Speaker 2: a year and two months before her husband Simon ended

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Speaker 2: up in the hospital with very similar symptoms.

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Speaker 1: And that's amazing, because, Dave, if this is in fact,

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Speaker 1: and let's face it, this is almost a serialized event

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Speaker 1: when you think about it. Poisoners in and of themselves

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Speaker 1: are interesting birds, to say the very least. First off,

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Speaker 1: they're very stealthy. And here's the thing. In order to

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Speaker 1: poison someone, and let's just she has not been convicted

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Speaker 1: of having poisoned anyone. Let me see, not even charged yet. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: let me just say that very plainly. But here's the

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Speaker 1: thing with these poisoning cases. You almost have to be

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Speaker 1: an intimate to be within the circle of an individual,

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Speaker 1: because why well, you have to get close enough to

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Speaker 1: them to apply whatever toxin it is that you're looking

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Speaker 1: to get into their system. And what's the most effective

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Speaker 1: way to do that. Well, ingestion is the quickest way

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Speaker 1: to do it, because Once you uptake this thing and

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Speaker 1: it begins to metabolize in your system, you're going to

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Speaker 1: have this onset and this horrible onset of nausea. It'll

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Speaker 1: be accompanied by vomiting. There'll be terrible intestinal pain. If

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Speaker 1: you've ever had severe intestinal cramping, it leads to severe dehydration,

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Speaker 1: just an unquenchable thirst. It's a horrible way for these people.

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Speaker 1: The course is very horrible and if they if they

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Speaker 1: can survive beyond, I don't know the first six hours

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Speaker 1: or so, guess what happens. There's a phase two that

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Speaker 1: this kicks into relative to the poisoning, and you think

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Speaker 1: that you're out of the woods. This is a scary part.

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Speaker 1: You might be in the hospital. They've hung an ivy

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Speaker 1: on you. They're pushing the necessary medications into your system.

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Speaker 1: There's almost like this dormant phase where this toxin is

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Speaker 1: coursing through your system. It's not that it's necessarily gone

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Speaker 1: into a dormant state. It's now working at a cellular

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Speaker 1: level and it cannot be detected until it gets into

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Speaker 1: phase three, and you know what happens. Then your liver

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Speaker 1: begins to shut down and we think about the pastor

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Speaker 1: right the sixty six year old, and your kidneys begin

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Speaker 1: to shut down at that moment time. And look, man,

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Speaker 1: if you have renal failure, renal failure is that's one

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Speaker 1: of the leading causes of death at an end stage

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Speaker 1: phase with people. What is it?

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Speaker 2: What is renal fail.

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Speaker 1: Renal failure means literally that your kidneys have shut down

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Speaker 1: and they can no longer appropriately process waste in your body.

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Speaker 1: So everything, all these toxins begin to back up in

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Speaker 1: your body. And isn't it interesting? Also the liver begins

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Speaker 1: to fail, so you go into what's referred to as

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Speaker 1: hepatic failure, which is just a fancy term for the liver,

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Speaker 1: and the liver begins to shut down. The individuals actually

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Speaker 1: begin to present with yellow skin color, and of course

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Speaker 1: we know that means they're in a state of jauntice.

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Speaker 1: If you've never seen anybody with jauntice, it's striking. And

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Speaker 1: when you see them, even what were the whites of

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Speaker 1: their eyes become yellow at that time too, And so

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Speaker 1: they're in a total system failure at this point in time.

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Speaker 1: It's a horrific way to die.

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Speaker 2: How is it possible, Joe, that four people seemingly similar

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Speaker 2: health three die one survives. I mean the fact that

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Speaker 2: the sixty six year old pastor is still alive. Granted

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Speaker 2: he's on a liver transplant list and things are not

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Speaker 2: looking good for him. But is it always Obviously is

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Speaker 2: not always fatal. What are some things that would make

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Speaker 2: a difference, do you think?

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Speaker 1: I think probably within this is an excellent point day

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Speaker 1: when you look at this, you think about survivability. This

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Speaker 1: pastor that you mentioned, he is sixty six. The rest

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Speaker 1: of these poor victims, they're well north of sixty six.

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Speaker 1: He's the youngest one in the group. And let's face it,

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Speaker 1: as you age, your systems become weaker than they were

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Speaker 1: when you were younger.

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Speaker 2: Would it be possible that the chef, the person who

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Speaker 2: prepared the dish, that they could, in fact, being substantially younger,

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Speaker 2: eat some of it, have some moderate symptoms, but not deathly.

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Speaker 1: No, I don't think that that's possible, because if you

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Speaker 1: ingested this thing, from my perspective, if you ingested this mushroom,

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Speaker 1: which is arguably the single most toxic mushroom in the world. Okay,

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Speaker 1: there are no degrees to it. Really, I'm going to

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Speaker 1: be very curious to find out when her husband had

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Speaker 1: complained of this illness several months prior to this fatal

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Speaker 1: event that occurred at their home or at their former

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Speaker 1: family home there where they were getting together. I'd like

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Speaker 1: to know the symptomology that he went through and kind

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Speaker 1: of the progress now people can survive this. What's really

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Speaker 1: horrific about this kind of circumstance is that if she did,

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Speaker 1: in fact poison this group of people, she really took

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Speaker 1: a shotgun approach. She was indiscriminate, Dave. She blasted them

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Speaker 1: essentially with this toxic substance, and she really didn't care

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Speaker 1: who died. Maybe she viewed everybody in the room as

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Speaker 1: an enemy. Maybe she said, well, I'm going after the

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Speaker 1: one target, and if other people die as a result

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Speaker 1: of it, so bit. But she certainly didn't die. She

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Speaker 1: still survived.

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Speaker 3: She's lived to tell the tale.

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Speaker 1: I love history, I do unashamedly. I think probably one

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Speaker 1: of our most successful episodes that we had was probably

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Speaker 1: the examination that we did of Julius Caesar's autopsy.

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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, that was crazy.

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Speaker 1: Well, let me throw another couple of names at you.

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Speaker 1: Emperor Claudius was a Roman empire and in addition to

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Speaker 1: Emperor Claudius Charles the six who was one of the

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Speaker 1: Holy Roman emperors. Take a while, guess what both of

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Speaker 1: these cats had in common.

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Speaker 2: Death by poison.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and not just poisoning, but death cap mushroom poisoning.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I thought you were messing with me.

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Speaker 1: No, honest to God's truth. And Voltaire actually wrote about

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Speaker 1: Charles the sixth death as a result of ingesting death

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Speaker 1: cap mushroom. And it may have not have been a

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Speaker 1: homicidal poisoning, but he was on a hunting trip and

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Speaker 1: he ingested these. Claudius was in fact poisoned, lethally poisoned,

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Speaker 1: and common history and I think a lot of these

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Speaker 1: scholars concur that it was probably a death cap mushroom.

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Speaker 1: And these mushrooms have been known for years and years,

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Speaker 1: and they actually they were initially found in Europe. That's

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Speaker 1: where they kind of spring from. And I find it

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Speaker 1: it's fascinating to me the way these things travel across

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Speaker 1: the world, because you know the case of these poor

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Speaker 1: people down in Australia, I don't know that this species

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Speaker 1: of mushroom existed prior to that land down there being

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Speaker 1: inhabited by Europeans. And they can also be found in

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Speaker 1: North America as well, And again, what do we have

347
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Speaker 1: in common with that? Well, the first settlers of North

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Speaker 1: America were European, so it's and you know, over a

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Speaker 1: period of time, certainly these species will kind of evolve

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Speaker 1: within their environment. It might turn into a different species,

351
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Speaker 1: or it might vary slightly from say the European specs.

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Speaker 1: The one thing that they do have in common is

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Speaker 1: that their level of toxicity and kind of what you're

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Speaker 1: seeing with them when they present at autopsy and certainly

355
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Speaker 1: in the clinical phase when you're doing an examination of

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Speaker 1: the records leading up to their death.

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Speaker 2: Let me ask you about autopsy. You mentioned that what

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Speaker 2: did it show up in an autopsy that it was

359
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:27,000
Speaker 2: a death cab mushroom poison or would it just be

360
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Speaker 2: vague in that while they died from some poison, I mean,

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Speaker 2: is there a way to tell?

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Speaker 1: This is one of the really cool things about a

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Speaker 1: case involving something that is ingested, like a fungus like this,

364
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Speaker 1: which a mushroom is, or some type of plant life

365
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:43,879
Speaker 1: that we might see. One of the things that we

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Speaker 1: do at autopsy, Dave, and I don't know that many

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Speaker 1: people really think about this. When not only draw blood,

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00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:54,000
Speaker 1: we draw urine and bile and vitreous fluid. We examine

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Speaker 1: the organs and take samples of those. One of the

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Speaker 1: tasks that you have to do at autopsy is during

371
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Speaker 1: the dissection. Just imagine the shape of a stomach. Okay.

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Speaker 1: You have the long tube that comes down the esophagus,

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Speaker 1: and you take a piece of string okay, and you

374
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Speaker 1: make an incision beneath the esophagus where it attaches on

375
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,959
Speaker 1: adjacent to where like the aord is running down the spine. Okay,

376
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,560
Speaker 1: and you tie that piece of string off so that

377
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Speaker 1: you've essentially tied off the top end of the esophagus

378
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Speaker 1: where it dumps into the stomach, or the lower end

379
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Speaker 1: of the esophagus, forgive me where it dumps into the stomach.

380
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,679
Speaker 1: And then you cut, you transsect across that where with

381
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Speaker 1: a pair of scissors. Then you go beneath the stomach

382
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Speaker 1: where it dumps into the small intestine. And here's the

383
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,360
Speaker 1: other part. You take a piece of string and you

384
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Speaker 1: tie off that bit that dumps in to actually the

385
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Speaker 1: small intestine, and you clip below that so that when

386
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,920
Speaker 1: you pull up the stomach, you have a completely in

387
00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:07,199
Speaker 1: cased sack. It's the stomach removed from the body, and

388
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,320
Speaker 1: that's the way we examine it. And we'll take that

389
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,359
Speaker 1: entire stomach before we examine the contents, and we'll put

390
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 1: it in a scale, and the scales. If you've ever

391
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 1: been to the grocery store and been to the produce section,

392
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Speaker 1: that's what the scales look like in the morgue, no more,

393
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Speaker 1: no less, that's exactly what they look like. We measure

394
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,720
Speaker 1: everything in gram so we would get a weight for

395
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 1: the stomach where the contents therein. We then go over

396
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Speaker 1: to a sink that we have in the morgue and

397
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 1: we carefully hold the stomach above a container in the

398
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:44,440
Speaker 1: sink and we gently opened up the stomach by incision,

399
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 1: and everything that's contained within that stomach dumps into that container.

400
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,720
Speaker 1: Now I know this is horribly grotesque for people to

401
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 1: listen to, but this is part of medical legal debt

402
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 1: investigation because once we have all of those remnant that

403
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,120
Speaker 1: partially digested food stuffs that are in stomach, we can

404
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: take that container and walk over to the autopsy table,

405
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,160
Speaker 1: put it up on our dissecting board, and very very

406
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 1: carefully go through it and we will literally try to

407
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 1: identify every type of substance that's contained within that gastric content.

408
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:24,920
Speaker 1: We'll also get a fluid measurement on it too. We'll

409
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,639
Speaker 1: talk about how many c ses of content for instance,

410
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 1: you know, like a c C is an increment of

411
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 1: measurement that we do injections with in a clinical standpoint,

412
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 1: but we measure out in ccs the amount that's contained

413
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,919
Speaker 1: in the stomach. And we'll actually talk about color because

414
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,439
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes it'll be green the contents of the stomach.

415
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 1: It will be green, it will be a bage. Sometimes

416
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 1: you'll see reds. And you can actually identify food stuffs

417
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 1: within the stomach. I'll give you for an example. The

418
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 1: most identifiable food in the human stomach that you can

419
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,960
Speaker 1: come across are actually hot dogs because they're in a case,

420
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 1: whether it's a naturally occurring caseing or synthetic casing, and

421
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 1: most people don't chew them up very well, and you

422
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:07,240
Speaker 1: can look at it and say, oh my gosh, that's

423
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 1: a hot dog, and easily easy to spot. Any kind

424
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 1: of leafy, green vegetable matter like salads, most of that

425
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 1: stuff's easily appreciable. So with a mushroom, it's kind of spongy, right,

426
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 1: so as it would be chewed all right, you would

427
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 1: still see a remnant of that. Perhaps if you were

428
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 1: keen on this, you would hone in on something that

429
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,400
Speaker 1: resembles a mushroom that's in there. And I say this

430
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 1: because this goes back to the investigation that the police

431
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 1: would have been conducting concurrently with the local corner. Because

432
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 1: down in Australia they actually still have a corner system.

433
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:51,400
Speaker 1: So when they get together before the autopsy, if there's

434
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:53,959
Speaker 1: a suspicion on the part of the investigators the police

435
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 1: that is death cap mushrooms have been used, then the

436
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 1: corner would begin to look at this at auto and

437
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 1: they would save every bit of the stomach content day.

438
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 1: They would put it in little clear plastic vials that

439
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,640
Speaker 1: have a screw on cap and they would set it aside,

440
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: keep it in the refrigerator, keep it cool, and then

441
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:14,920
Speaker 1: they would take a sample of this and they would

442
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 1: send it off. They would send it off to the

443
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: crime lab and it would be examined there. It would

444
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 1: be examined in the crime lab. Now you would have

445
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 1: to have somebody at the crime lab that can look

446
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 1: at stomach contents like this, and first off, they would

447
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: look at it from a taxonomy standpoint where they're identifying

448
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 1: what type of matter this is. Is it of some

449
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 1: type of non animal matter that has been ingested, So

450
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 1: it might be a fungus like a mushroom, or it

451
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 1: could be a leafy vegetable like a lettuce or whatever

452
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,119
Speaker 1: it is. You think about the components contained within this

453
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: beef wellington dish, which mushrooms are actually a component of.

454
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,679
Speaker 1: You think about a baked good, because beef wellington actually

455
00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 1: has a crust on it, it's rolled up, and there's

456
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 1: beef contained in there obviously, and other vegetable matter, and

457
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 1: so you would be looking at this mishmash of stuff

458
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 1: that's in there. So you have to be very very

459
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 1: careful and once you've identified that mushroom, because heat is

460
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 1: not going to change it. So if this mushroom was

461
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,640
Speaker 1: baked in, okay, that mushroom is not going to be

462
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: baked down to the point in a kitchen where it

463
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 1: would be unrecognizable from a microscopic standpoint. And if you

464
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,560
Speaker 1: need further help, for instance, in a case like this,

465
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 1: I would suspect that a sample of this mushroom, and

466
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 1: this happens here in the US. Relative to the Smithsonian,

467
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: they would send a sample of this off to the

468
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 1: National Museum perhaps or to an organization that deals with

469
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: toxic plants, and there will be specialists on staff that

470
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 1: will specifically identify this, and if this case does go

471
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 1: to trial, they'll have these individuals testify.

472
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,879
Speaker 2: By it amazing that you can find all of that

473
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 2: out at an autopsy, and it makes sense that they

474
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 2: would be. There would be a lot of undigested stuff

475
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 2: in there. The people got sick right away, So even

476
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 2: if they are getting rid of the content, I mean

477
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 2: through expulsion, through vomiting and diarrhea and everything else, there

478
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 2: would still be enough left to determine what actually caused this.

479
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, there would be. And keep in mind, and I

480
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 1: don't want to really discuss people with this, but you

481
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 1: have to understand one of the presentations with this toxic

482
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: event is gastrointestinal discomfort. Okay, so let's just kind of

483
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 1: take this stage by stage. Once it's ingested, this toxin

484
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: goes into the system. Now, how does it go through

485
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 1: into the system. Well, it's in the stomach first. It's

486
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:42,959
Speaker 1: passed through the sophacause it's sitting in the stomach. Just

487
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 1: because we ingest something doesn't mean it just merely pauses

488
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: in the stomach and then goes into the small intestine

489
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: where absorption takes place and all this sort of stuff.

490
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: At that point, you still have absorption that's going on

491
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 1: in the stomach. With the triggering mechanism of this toxic event.

492
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 1: You have people that developed nausea. They can vomit, but

493
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: they'll also develop things like diarrhea. So you might have

494
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 1: it coming out of both ends, as they say, but

495
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 1: there would still be a remnant enough of this. And

496
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: here's another piece to this that's kind of fascinating. When

497
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: you have a toxic substance like this, it's not just

498
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: what has been ingested into the system through absorption through

499
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: the stomach and the small intestine and that sort of thing.

500
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: One of the other things that you look for is

501
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: that many times with a toxic substance, it will begin

502
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 1: to cause changes in the lining of the stomach perhaps,

503
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 1: and those changes that you see are associated and microscopically

504
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: they can be identified as being associated with certain types

505
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 1: of toxins. Okay, you might look at it and it

506
00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: might look red and irritated, for instance, or inflamed, but

507
00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: microscopically those changes sometimes can be very specific to specific

508
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 1: types of toxin. So once that stomach is removed, like

509
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: we were talking about just a second ago, you would

510
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: trim out part of that stomach itself and you would

511
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: preserve it and the physicians would take it and fix

512
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 1: it onto a slot. And part of that is I

513
00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: guess you could refer to it as forensic histology. It's

514
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: really just histology, which is the study of tissues. So

515
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: then that's one of the things that pathologists do. Those

516
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: samples that we take from all of the organs in

517
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 1: the body. They would examine that microscopically over a period

518
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: of time and document those changes and they can testify

519
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 1: to that on stand Dave. Because forensic pathologists are pathologists

520
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: as well, and so they're experts in the area of

521
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 1: histology studying tissue. You know, because like things that come

522
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: out of surgery, if somebody has a gangrenous limb or

523
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 1: or cancers and all these things that are removed, pathologists

524
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: takes a look at all that stuff. So they're keen

525
00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 1: on different types of tissues, and so that would be

526
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,800
Speaker 1: examined as well. So you've got to whole myriad of

527
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: things that come into play here, and we haven't even

528
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: mentioned all of these people will have had some kind

529
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: of liver failure as well, and that can be demonstrated.

530
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: And it's very powerful when you think about it, because

531
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,959
Speaker 1: if this thing were to go to trial, the pathologist

532
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: could actually put up several slides of what healthy liver

533
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 1: looks like, and then they take a slide and they

534
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 1: show what a damaged liver looks like from an acute

535
00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 1: poison event. And it's going to be striking, and they

536
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 1: will literally on the stand given an anatomy lesson, and

537
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 1: it can be very powerful.

538
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 2: We probably want to be very clear that she has

539
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 2: not Aaron Patterson has not been charged. She has been

540
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 2: mentioned as somebody they're interested in based on how these

541
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 2: deaths occurred. Three out of the four dying, one still

542
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 2: in the hospital. But police they're playing this as they

543
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 2: get everything together. The one thing that you and I

544
00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 2: both noticed, Joe, is the amount of Q and A

545
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:57,959
Speaker 2: you and I have gotten privately away from here of

546
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 2: people asking about this particular case and poisoning. Is it

547
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 2: because using something we eat as a weapon, I mean

548
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,280
Speaker 2: using a gun, a knife that you know, you've got

549
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 2: a big deal there. You're talking about something that people eat.

550
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 2: When we began the program, today you were salivating talking

551
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 2: about mushrooms. Is that the fascinating part? You think that

552
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 2: people are going man something in my backyard In this case,

553
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 2: the death cap mushroom could actually be used as a weapon.

554
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 2: And the bigger question, could they prosecutors, if they decided

555
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 2: to move forward with this, could they go back and

556
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 2: look at her husband Simon from fourteen months ago when

557
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 2: he was in the hospital in intensive care for twenty

558
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 2: one days with gastrointestinal problems. He had three surgeries while

559
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 2: he was in there. Could they go back and pull

560
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 2: slides from the different things that they were doing with

561
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 2: him and determined at this late date that he himself

562
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 2: was poisoned.

563
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that they probably could. They've certainly for

564
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: any of my listeners that have ever been in the hospital,

565
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 1: think about all the times when you were in hospital

566
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:02,719
Speaker 1: at night and that nurse comes in your room and

567
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 1: wakes you up. Hospital is not the place to go

568
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 1: for rest, right, Well, every time a nurse comes into

569
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 1: your room, they go back out to their desk and

570
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: they chart, they chart, they chart, they chart. Everything that

571
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 1: they do to you is written down, and God bless nurses.

572
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: I think that they are the unsung heroes in our society.

573
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:22,959
Speaker 1: That's one of the things that they do. They not

574
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 1: only treat their patients that they're charged to care for,

575
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: but they chart and document it all along. And so

576
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 1: that's a long course for him to have been in

577
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: the hospital. And if he has undergone these surgeries, like

578
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 1: you had mentioned, these multiple surgeries, if anything had been

579
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: removed from his body at that point in time, Yeah,

580
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: I think that there's a high probability that they will

581
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: find perhaps some type of changes, tissue changes in his system,

582
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: particularly as the scene kind of metabolizes through that talks

583
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: and metabolizes through his body. And also if there are

584
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,239
Speaker 1: any biological samples like blood that's left behind. They've had

585
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: enough time now perhaps that if they are thinking, rethinking

586
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: the course of treatment, they're going to go back and

587
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 1: they're going to take a look at everything he has.

588
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: And here's the thing, Dave, if they're looking for death

589
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 1: cap mushroom toxicity for him, do you think for two

590
00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 1: seconds he's going to say, no, you guys can't look

591
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 1: at my medical records. No, that's not what's going to happen.

592
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: He's going to say, here, where do I sign the release?

593
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 1: Now he's part of a death investigation, and that his

594
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 1: course of treatment is part of that, so they can

595
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: go back and begin to take a look at it.

596
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 1: They'll take a look at how he initially presented. They're

597
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:42,400
Speaker 1: going to look at his history. Have you ever had

598
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 1: an event that occurs like this, that is even in

599
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: the more distant past, and people that were around him

600
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 1: at the time that this occurred, who had access to him,

601
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 1: if this was in fact a toxic event, who had

602
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,439
Speaker 1: access to, say, his food supply at that moment in time,

603
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 1: And the police are going to look at every bit

604
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: of that period. And here's another thing. I would also

605
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: think that if there are any other cases out there

606
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 1: that might have geographic proximity to any of these events

607
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: that might share commonalities, you can bet your bottom dollar,

608
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: particularly if they're unsolved or unresolved clinically, they the police,

609
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 1: the prosecutor down there, they're going to take a long,

610
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: hard look at those cases too, because Dave, this is

611
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 1: not something that happens every day. All right, It's going

612
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: to stand out like a sore thumb. But you know

613
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 1: that brings us back to where we started in this case.

614
00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: You think about a medical model of investigation, and doctors

615
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 1: and nurses and healthcare workers. Yet they are clinicians there

616
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: to take care of us. But you know what else, Dave,

617
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:52,440
Speaker 1: they're investigators. Everything they do, every place that they go

618
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: with a patient, every bit of treatment that they administer

619
00:35:56,239 --> 00:36:00,319
Speaker 1: to a patient is problem solving. And that's all investigation is.

620
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 1: It's problem solving. It's like a big puzzle. They're going

621
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,959
Speaker 1: to be putting these pieces together. Let's wait and see

622
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 1: what happens with this case, because I for one, I'm

623
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,800
Speaker 1: going to be fascinated to see what the end result

624
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 1: is and to see if this actually did result from

625
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:24,879
Speaker 1: the weaponization of a musherer. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and

626
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:26,879
Speaker 1: this is bodybags