1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephan. 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: Never told you a protection of iHeartRadio, and today we 3 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: are coming at you. That sounds kind of intimidating. We're 4 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: coming to you with another episode of book Club. Content 5 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 1: warning for a brief discussion of sexual abuse, ableism, physical abuse, pain, suicidality. 6 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: We're not going to talk too much in depth about 7 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: any of those things, but just to put that out there. Also, 8 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,880 Speaker 1: this is a very quote heavy episode. I think I've 9 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: described this before, but a lot of times when we 10 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: do book Club, I read the book and as I 11 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: go through, I just copy paste quotes as I'm reading 12 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: because I'm like, oh, this is relevant, this is relevant. 13 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: And then at the end I go back and try 14 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: to make it so it's not a huge thing. This one. 15 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: Originally it was fifteen pages of quotes and I had 16 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: to go through and pick and choose. And so I 17 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:19,400 Speaker 1: will tell you, please go read this book. I personally 18 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 1: wish I had read it way earlier. I've been talking 19 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:26,400 Speaker 1: about it for a while. It is called Care Work, Dreaming, 20 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: Disability Justice by Leah Lakshmi, Peeps Nut Samarasina, and it's 21 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: from twenty eighteen and yeah, I just wish I had 22 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: read it earlier, especially before. As I've said, I wrote 23 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,960 Speaker 1: about disability in the book that we have coming out, 24 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: but it was so informative. It is a collection of 25 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: personal essays about disability justice, especially through the lens of 26 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: sick and disabled, queer, trans, black and brown people, and 27 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: it also includes quotes and segments written by others in 28 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: the community, and it has advice and tips, and it's 29 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: really open. It's got a lot of vulnerable stories about 30 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: the realities and possibilities of disability justice. So oh, as 31 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: with a lot of these episodes where Samantha and I 32 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: can't really speak to the experience, this is a very 33 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 1: it is a very cool episode, right. 34 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 2: I think before we were recording, I was like, look, 35 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 2: there's so much that they say that trying to act 36 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 2: like we have some commonality to it, not that we don't, 37 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 2: because there's definitely a lot to it. We were talking 38 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 2: about when we talk about sexual abuse and they talk 39 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 2: about PTSD and they talk about trauma and itself, all 40 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 2: that is familiar, and especially when it tends to like 41 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 2: anxiety and depression. Because I was like, oh, they kind 42 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:44,799 Speaker 2: of hit some nails on the head that I did 43 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 2: not recognize. Once again, we talked about this earlier in 44 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 2: a Monday Mini when we were talking about I did 45 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 2: not really think about disabilities as my anxiety. But what 46 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 2: the fact of the matter is it actually holds me 47 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 2: back from doing things. I was like, oh, yeah, that 48 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 2: makes that actually makes sense then, And I just don't 49 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 2: see it as a disability because it's an invisible disability 50 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 2: a B. It doesn't feel like it's severe as other 51 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 2: types of disabilities, even though that is also ablest in 52 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 2: its own mindset. But yeah, in this with their experience 53 00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 2: as well as who they talk to and who they 54 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 2: are referencing, they say it best and so why do 55 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 2: we need to replace it? 56 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: Yes, but that being said, please support them and check 57 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 1: out their work and through everything I've seen read they 58 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: do go by them pronouns. But as always, if that's incorrect, 59 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:40,000 Speaker 1: let us know. But let's start because disability justice is 60 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: at the heart of this book, so let's break down 61 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: that term. Quote. Disability justice is a term coined by 62 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: the black, brown, queer, and trans members of the original 63 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: Disability Justice Collective, founded in two thousand and five by 64 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: Patty Byrne, Mia Mungus Stacy Milburn, Lee, Roy Moore, Eli Clare, 65 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: and Sebastian Margaret, disabled queer and trans, black Asian and 66 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: white activists and artists. They dreamed up of movement building 67 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: framework that would center the lives, needs, and organizing strategies 68 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:13,080 Speaker 1: of disabled, queer and trans, and or black and brown 69 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 1: people marginalize from mainstream disability rights organizing's white dominated single 70 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: issue focus and another quote in the words of Sins 71 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: Invalid co founder and executive director Patty Byrne, While a 72 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:33,719 Speaker 1: concrete and radical move forward toward justice for disabled people, 73 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 1: the disability rights movement simultaneously invisibilized the lives of people 74 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: who lived at intersecting junctures of oppression, disabled people of color, 75 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:47,280 Speaker 1: immigrants with disabilities, queers with disabilities, trans and gender non 76 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:51,479 Speaker 1: conforming people with disabilities, people with disabilities who are houseless, 77 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: people with disabilities who are incarcerated, people with disabilities who 78 00:04:55,839 --> 00:05:01,520 Speaker 1: have had their ancestral lands stolen, amongst others. Disability justice activist, 79 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 1: organizers and cultural workers understand that able bodied supremacy has 80 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: been formed in relation to other systems of domination and exploitation. 81 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: The histories of white supremacy and ableism are inextricably entwined, 82 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: both forged in the crucible of colonial conquest and capitalist domination. 83 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: One cannot look at the history of US slavery, the 84 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: stealing of Indigenous lands, and US imperialism without seeing the 85 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 1: way that white supremacy leverages ablism to create a subjugated 86 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 1: other that is deemed less worthy slash abled, slash smart, 87 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: slash capable. We cannot comprehend ablism without grasping its interrelations 88 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: with heteropatriarchy, white supremacy, colonialism, and capitalism. Each system benefits 89 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:51,720 Speaker 1: from extracting profits and status from the subjugated other. Five 90 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 1: hundred plus years of violence against black and brown communities 91 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:58,039 Speaker 1: includes five hundred plus years of bodies and minds deemed 92 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:03,919 Speaker 1: dangerous by being non normative. A disability justice framework understands 93 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: that all bodies are unique and essential, that all bodies 94 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,159 Speaker 1: have strengths and needs that must be met. We know 95 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,479 Speaker 1: that we are powerful not despite the complexities of our bodies, 96 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: but because of them. Disability justice holds a vision born 97 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: out of collective struggle, drawing upon the legacies of cultural 98 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: and spiritual resistance within a thousand underground pass igniting small, 99 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 1: persistent fires of rebellion. In everyday life, disabled people of 100 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 1: the global majority black and brown people share common ground 101 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: confronting and subverting colonial powers in our struggle for life 102 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: and justice. There has always been resistance to all forms 103 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 1: of oppression, as we know through our bones that there 104 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,040 Speaker 1: have simultaneously been disabled people visioning a world where we 105 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: flourish that values and celebrates us in all our myriad beauty. Yeah. Again, 106 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 1: we can't say it better than that, right. 107 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 2: And I think there's so much depth and history within 108 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 2: that conversation. Yeah, when we've talked about colonialization and past 109 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 2: ugly histories and what that looks like when we take 110 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 2: it intersectionally, and then they are definitely diving into that conversation. 111 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 2: Here's more of a quote more than that. Disability Justice 112 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 2: asserts that ableism helps make racism, Christian supremacy, sexism, and 113 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 2: queer and transphobia possible, and that all those systems of 114 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 2: oppression are locked up tight. So there's that concluding conversation 115 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 2: about the intersectional bit of types of discrimination and what 116 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 2: it can lead to in this power play, and then 117 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 2: going on. It is underdocumented private work work often seen 118 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 2: as not quote real activism, but it is the realist activism. 119 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 2: There is this is how disability justice, art and activism 120 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 2: change the world and save lives. In writing this book, 121 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 2: I wanted to capture some of this history as it 122 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 2: is being made and dreamed. 123 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: Right, And so yeah, it's kind of The book is 124 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,080 Speaker 1: kind of laid out in a series of essays around 125 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: certain topics, all of them revolving around disability justice. There's 126 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: a section that has the ten Principles of Disability Justice 127 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: by Patty Byrne, edited by Aurora Levin's Morales and David 128 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: langstaff on behalf of sins invalid. From my vantage point, 129 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: with since invalid quote, we incubate both the framework and 130 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: practice of disability justice. This burgeoning framework has ten principles, 131 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: each offering new opportunities for movement builders. And the first 132 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 1: one is intersectionality. Then leadership of those most impacted, anti 133 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: capitalist politic cross movement, solidarity, recognizing wholeness, sustainability, commitment to 134 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: cross disability solidarity, interdependence, collective access, collective liberation. 135 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 2: Right. I think that's really important that they really really 136 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:55,679 Speaker 2: hone in on is collective or community and what that 137 00:08:55,720 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 2: looks like as well as not necessarily bargaining but understanding 138 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 2: that there is a. 139 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: Trade, like there's a yeah, there's a balance. 140 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,319 Speaker 2: There's a balance, and that there's a good faith and 141 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 2: being able to be a community and being a collective. 142 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 1: Yes, and again we can't quote the whole book for 143 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: many reasons. Go please go to support. 144 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 3: Do you need to buy the book? 145 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's one of the big ones. But also there 146 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: are just so many beautiful examples of how this could look. 147 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: When that's like dreaming disability justice, what could look like, 148 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: there's so many in there of how that could work, 149 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: how it could look and if you're still kind of like, 150 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: what does that mean exactly? One of the big parts 151 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: of it is something called care webs So here's a quote. 152 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,199 Speaker 1: What does it mean to shift our ideas of access 153 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: and care, whether it's disability, childcare, economic access, are many 154 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: more from an individual chore an unfortunate cost of having 155 00:09:55,520 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: an unfortunate body, to collective responsibility that's maybe even deeper, joyful. 156 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: What does it mean for our movements, our communities, our 157 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: fan ourselves and our own lived experience of disability and 158 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 1: chronic illness? What does it mean to wrestle with these 159 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,959 Speaker 1: ideas of softness and strength, vulnerability, pride asking for help, 160 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: and not all of which are so deeply raced and 161 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: classed and gendered. If collective access is revolutionary love without charity, 162 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: how do we learn to love each other? How do 163 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: we learn to do this love work of collective care 164 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 1: that lives as instead of abandons us, that grapples with 165 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: all the deep ways in which care is complicated. And 166 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: then the quote was I wrote this because I believe 167 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: we stand at the crossroads between both the gifts and 168 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: the unexpected, inevitable collapses of our work, and we have 169 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:51,400 Speaker 1: the opportunity to dream and keep dreaming ways to build emergent, 170 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: resilient care webs. I believe that our work in creating 171 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,360 Speaker 1: the new world depends on it because all of us 172 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: became disabled and sick, because all of us will become 173 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: disabled and sick because state systems are failing. That community 174 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,840 Speaker 1: is not a magic unicorn, a one stop shop that 175 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: always helps us do the laundry and be held in need. 176 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: I believe that the only way we will do this 177 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: is by being real, by not papering over the places 178 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: where a rhetoric falls flat, where we ran out of steam, 179 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 1: or where this is genuinely hard yep so much. Yes, 180 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 1: And that's one of the I would say truly open 181 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:38,360 Speaker 1: and vulnerable parts of this book is that is very 182 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 1: honest in where things do fall flat, like where it 183 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 1: it's just a really complicated, complex thing, and changing that 184 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: mindset of it from it's a chore to it being 185 00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: a deeply joyous thing, but also just that whole asking 186 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: for help and asking not asking for help and navigating 187 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:03,719 Speaker 1: all of that. 188 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 2: And then like I know they talk about it soon, 189 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 2: but they talk about the fact that for those who 190 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 2: are at this time able bodied being requested to help us, 191 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 2: being understanding to the fact that this is not because 192 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 2: they want to. And the matter of the fact is 193 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 2: that those who are saying that they are for disability justice, 194 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 2: meaning they accept all of it, whether it's an anger 195 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 2: and frustration and or all of that, being open to 196 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 2: all the emotions that come with it and stop being 197 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 2: the kind of like the savior hat which people take upon, 198 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 2: which is again able list. 199 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 1: Yes, and I cut it out again because I had 200 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 1: so many lots in here. But there was also a 201 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: whole section on what was called like for people who 202 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:58,440 Speaker 1: are able bodied and had a temporary Uh, we're not 203 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: always temporary, but are now like not able bodied and 204 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: you know, putting up the Facebook post and getting all 205 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:07,679 Speaker 1: that support and then that fading away pretty quickly, if 206 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,079 Speaker 1: it doesn't go away very quickly, and people with disabilities 207 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,959 Speaker 1: seeing that and being like, well, here I am, I've 208 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 1: been doing that. You haven't shown up for me at all. 209 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: But yeah, that was a big topic of asking for 210 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: help receiving care. Here's a quote as Ronham of r 211 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: Amp Vancouver writes, If interdependency is in our DNA, what 212 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: does it mean when we fall out of whack with it? 213 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 1: How do we handle the realities of our bodies and 214 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: minds that need what they need when they need it. 215 00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 1: What does it mean when I can't support you in 216 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: the ways you're supporting me? Does interdependency mean we do 217 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: the same for one another at all times? So there's 218 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 1: even such a thing as the same when it comes 219 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:05,120 Speaker 1: to this stuff? Is it a gentle ebb and flow? 220 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: What if my ebb will never match your flow? What 221 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: if it's sometimes a torrential downpour and one of us 222 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: is drowning? What do we do? Then there were more 223 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 1: questions like what happened when some of us could hang 224 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: out together more because we had fewer mobility needs. We 225 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 1: could make it into a car, could deal with exposures, 226 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: and some of us couldn't. How did we make things 227 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: feel fair when some of us got tired and sick 228 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: and needed to cancel and others, maybe folks who practiced 229 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: sucking it up and working through pain more, maybe just 230 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: folks who didn't have pain and fatigue, were left feeling 231 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: like they were doing all the work. What about those 232 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: of us who felt more comfortable going to non disabled 233 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: events together so got to spend that time and get 234 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: that visibility, and those of us who were more overwhelmed 235 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 1: or had more anxiety about being stared at. And maybe 236 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: the biggest disabled community question of all, what happens when 237 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: a lo a lot of people who have always been 238 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: the only one are no longer the only disabled queer 239 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: of color in the room. How does that affect how 240 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: we work together, build community and work out conflict. Sometimes, 241 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,520 Speaker 1: because we were used to being the only revolutionary equip 242 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: fighting ableism in a sea of able bodied obliviousness, it 243 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: was hard for us to hear that we weren't always right, 244 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 1: to understand differences of opinion or approach or experience as 245 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: other than wrong or attack or threat. After a year, 246 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 1: our group broke up and they were describing specific group 247 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: they set up from all of these pressures and hard 248 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: spots and a web of interpersonal conflict. It was a 249 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: hard breakup. I felt like my dreams Sick and Disabled 250 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: qt BIPOP Crew had fallen apart, that a community I 251 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: had passionately believed in and given much of my limited 252 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 1: energy to had failed. I didn't know that one group 253 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: falling apart didn't have to mean that was it for 254 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: the idea of building a care web for the movement. 255 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 1: I wish we could have known that the struggles we 256 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: hit weren't failures or signs of how inadequate we were, 257 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: but incredibly valuable learnings. And yeah that's true. You know, 258 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: yeah it doesn't always work out, but you've learned from it, 259 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: and then you build off of that, right. 260 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 2: And they don't stop. No, it's the other key another quote. Yet, 261 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 2: as I move forward in this life of creating and 262 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 2: receiving care, I'm continually impressed by how we find ways 263 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 2: to keep each other alive when the state is and 264 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 2: the community can be and inadequate too. I love seeing 265 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 2: how friends and strangers seem to be more and more 266 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 2: used to crowdfunding care and setting up care shift google docs. 267 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 2: I also see the burnout and exploitation of often film 268 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 2: and disabled labor that happens, and also what happens when 269 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 2: people plane run out of energy, money, and time. I 270 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 2: think about the needs I have that I am still 271 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 2: too ashamed to let anyone see, let alone take care of. 272 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 2: I also think about friends and strangers who plenty of needs, 273 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 2: but not enough friends or strangers willing and able to 274 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,159 Speaker 2: come through to care for them. The community is not 275 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 2: a magic utopia, just like our families weren't, and we 276 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 2: don't all just magically love each other or even like 277 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 2: each other, let alone agree on every political issue. 278 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 1: Yes, that was the point that came up a lot 279 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: and known in the book, Because you know, even if 280 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: nobody likes you, even in a lot of times, that's 281 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: because you're in pain and you're not feeling right, very 282 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 1: personal or s shiable, that doesn't mean you should not 283 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: get care that you need. 284 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 2: Right. 285 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 1: Yes, here's another quote. Are the poor and working class 286 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 1: disabled fems doing all the work all the time? Care 287 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: is feminized and invisibilized labor. Care is something that many, 288 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 1: not all poor slash working class folks do like breathing. 289 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: We got time. It's just the right thing to do. Right. 290 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:57,880 Speaker 1: What's going on with race and entitlement? Who feels comfy? Asking? 291 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: Are the white queers, the pretty queer, the middle class, 292 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: relatively happy, skinny normal queers getting much care? How many 293 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: masculine gendered people have I cared the software with no reciprocity. 294 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 1: Talk about this stuff. It's really important disrupted get the 295 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: mask pretty abled people to put in time. And here 296 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 1: is another quote. This is an excellent example of where 297 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: disability rights bumps against disability justice. A rights framework says 298 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: that the ADA and other pieces of civil rights legislation 299 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: give disabled citizens our rights. We simply state the law 300 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:40,239 Speaker 1: and get our needs met. Disability justice says, what if 301 00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 1: you're disabled and undocumented? What if you think the settler 302 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: colonial nation we live in is a farce and a hallucination. 303 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: What if you don't have money to sue an inaccessible business. 304 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 1: What if the people giving you accommodations and access technology 305 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: or not are not paid for by the state but 306 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:00,199 Speaker 1: part of your community. I agree that our acts us 307 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: to access and the world should not be predicated on 308 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:07,120 Speaker 1: desirability or popularity or approval of the able bodied masses 309 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 1: or anyone. And I hold a deep place of respect 310 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: for the way so many of us have been denied 311 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: access to love. But when I say the word love, 312 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: I mean something more crypt out and weird than the 313 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: traditional desirability politics many of us are forced to try 314 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: to survive and live within. I mean that when we 315 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: reach for each other and make the most access possible, 316 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: it is a radical act of love. 317 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 2: I guess that underlying like actually seeing beyond your normative 318 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 2: ablest ideals, because they definitely talked a lot about different 319 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 2: things that I haven't even considered when it comes to 320 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,919 Speaker 2: activism in itself, and how it's so exclusionary just walking 321 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 2: in a pace, being allowed to be late, like we 322 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 2: have such an unfortunate level of hierarchy, and especially when 323 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 2: it comes to success and being successful about like time 324 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 2: and such that it's really able us. And I've never 325 00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 2: really thought about that, And I'm like, huh, that is 326 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,400 Speaker 2: a whole conversation that we don't talk about. And then 327 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 2: there's another quote there is there's grief mixed in with 328 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 2: the rage and survival and a belief that you must 329 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 2: be spoiled or entitled to ask for what you need. 330 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 2: It reminds me of survivors who stubbornly insist that their 331 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:27,159 Speaker 2: parents beat them and they came out just fine. I 332 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 2: honored the survival skills of denying need and getting the 333 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 2: fire have been things that kept us alive. But I 334 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 2: believe our beloved dead want us to do more than 335 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 2: life on one cracker and an inaccessible building forever. And yeah, 336 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,640 Speaker 2: this whole level of well, you need to just deal 337 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 2: with it is it is. It's so infuriating for all things, 338 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 2: all the things in this whole level of like, well 339 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,479 Speaker 2: I got by, why can't you? And then the like 340 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 2: We see that prime example as when it comes to 341 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 2: race and when it comes to feminism and women's issues, 342 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 2: But the conversation is truly like, but why should they 343 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 2: have to? Everybody has been advanced and we all can 344 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 2: take that time to care and then not want them 345 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 2: just to survive, but to truly live and to be 346 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 2: able to do more than just live on crackers, as 347 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 2: they say. 348 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 1: Right, And I think that goes back to what you 349 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: said earlier about the why this is so important for 350 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:34,679 Speaker 1: intersectionality is as we talked about in our recent disability 351 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 1: Pride check in I had a lot of this internalizableism 352 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 1: around like, oh I'm so strong, Look how much pain 353 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: I can put up with before I do something. And 354 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 1: that's just such a toxic, a toxic mindset of why 355 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: if I don't need to be like, who's profiting off 356 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: of this? 357 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 2: Not me? 358 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: Like not me? And there is a lot of discussion 359 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 1: around that in this book too, of the things I've 360 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:04,239 Speaker 1: been wrestling with around capitalism and diableism. And I want 361 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 1: to put this in because there is some history about 362 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: kind of in North America when colonialism came in and 363 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:21,640 Speaker 1: how it changed for the indigenous people. So quote. Disabled 364 00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:26,640 Speaker 1: Cherokee scholar Quo Le Driscol has remarked that in pre 365 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: contact Cherokee, there are many words for people with different 366 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: kinds of bodies, illnesses, and what would be seen as impairments. 367 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: None of those words are negative or view those sick 368 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:39,400 Speaker 1: or disabled people as defective or not as good as 369 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:45,120 Speaker 1: normatively bodied people. With the arrival of white settler colonialism, 370 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: things changed, and not in a good way for many 371 00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 1: sick and disabled, black, Indigenous and brown people. Under the 372 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: Transatlantic enclavement, colonial invasion, and forced labor, there was no 373 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,920 Speaker 1: such thing as state funded care instead. If we were 374 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: too sick or disabled to work, we were often killed, sold, 375 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 1: or left to die because we were not making factory 376 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: or plantation owners money. Sick, disabled, mad, deaf, and neurodivergent 377 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: people's care and treatment varied according to race, class, gender, 378 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: and location. For the most part, at best, we were 379 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: able to evade capture and find ways of caring for 380 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 1: ourselves are being cared for by our families, nations, or communities, 381 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: from our black and brown communities to disabled communities. At worst, 382 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: a combination of legal and societal ableism plus racism and 383 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: colonialism meant that we were locked up in institutions or 384 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: hospitals for our own good. The ugly laws on the 385 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 1: books in the United States from the mid seventeen hundreds 386 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 1: to the nineteen seventies stated that many disabled people were 387 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,880 Speaker 1: too ugly to be in public and legally prevented disabled 388 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: people from being able to take up space in public. Yeah, 389 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 1: and another part of this conversation, a big part of 390 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:03,160 Speaker 1: this book is something called healing justice. Here's a quote. 391 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: I've been involved in what's known as the Healing Justice 392 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,120 Speaker 1: movement since twenty ten and have been involved and invested 393 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: in healing as a form of liberation and social justice 394 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: all my life, from when I was a little survivor 395 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: brown femme disabled kid to when I was a nineteen 396 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: year old feeling ashamed of her alter and interest in 397 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,879 Speaker 1: herbs and taro because they were a departure from the 398 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 1: real struggle. The Healing Justice movement was created in response 399 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: to all of those things, from burnout to ablest movement 400 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: cultures that detegrate and dismiss healing as not serious, to 401 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: a lack of access to high quality healing and health 402 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,360 Speaker 1: care by oppressed people, and in the hope of reclaiming 403 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: the ways are oppressed surviving communities have always healed, from 404 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,360 Speaker 1: before colonization to now. 405 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,399 Speaker 2: And going on. Most sick and disabled people I know 406 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 2: approach healing wanting specific things less pain, less anxiety, more flexibility, 407 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 2: but not usually to become able bodied. And many of 408 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,479 Speaker 2: us don't feel automatically comfortable going to healing spaces at 409 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 2: all because of our histories of being seen as freaks, scrutinized, infantilized, 410 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 2: patronized with what happened, prayed over and asked, have you 411 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 2: tried acupuncture? And a million other quote miracle cures able 412 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 2: bodied practitioners without an anti ablest analysis, including wiki providers 413 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 2: and anti impression therapists, often see us as objects of disgust, fascination, 414 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:29,400 Speaker 2: and or inspiration porn. Mostly, these practitioners dismissed our lived 415 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 2: expertise about our body minds and their needs, or on 416 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 2: the flip side, they tell us we're quote not really 417 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,479 Speaker 2: disabled when we insist on the realities. 418 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: Of our lives. Yeah, there's a lot of that in there, 419 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 1: of like no, you're fine, Like no. 420 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 2: So I'm guessing films like Doctor Strange is the ultimate 421 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 2: to this context of ablest. 422 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:59,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely not a good No, not good, And yeah, 423 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: that was a big speaking of that was also a 424 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: big thing with this was white people jumping in, trying 425 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: to dominate the space, trying to make money. So that's 426 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 1: like a clear always research, always research, right. 427 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:13,640 Speaker 2: We were going to do a whole episode on white 428 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,360 Speaker 2: women and yoga, but we had so many other subjects. 429 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,159 Speaker 2: But this kind of comes into the play of like 430 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 2: what has it become? 431 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 1: Right, and that's you know, we also talked about it 432 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: with veganism, where there's kind of this white vegan movement 433 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,159 Speaker 1: of like we've discovered it, Like no, you did it. 434 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 1: So it's just sort of like you can participate. You 435 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: you could be vegan, you can participate in this, but 436 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 1: there's about respect and knowing the history and not taking 437 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,399 Speaker 1: up the space, the room, getting the money and forcing 438 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: people out who actually have that history. Also, yes, there 439 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,400 Speaker 1: was a lot of talk about sexuality and desirability, which 440 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 1: we've discussed a lot when it comes to disability and 441 00:26:55,080 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 1: how that's often erased, including some specifics that have had 442 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 1: more positive portrayals of disabled sexuality and how important that is. 443 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,159 Speaker 1: And then going back to what you were saying, Samantha, 444 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: which is something we wrote about in the book. But 445 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,680 Speaker 1: there is a big conversation about the accessibility of movements, 446 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:21,919 Speaker 1: of activism, of advocacy. So here's a quote that I 447 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 1: remain with many other fem and feminine people harmed by misogyny, 448 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 1: where endless free care, work and emotional labor is simply 449 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: the role my community in the world has for us. 450 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: We are supposed to wipe the ass of the world 451 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 1: without ceasing. As a newly physically disabled, working class fem 452 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 1: of color in the nineteen nineties, I often felt how 453 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 1: the queer and radical prison justice communities I was part 454 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 1: of looked down upon my gender, especially when I was 455 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 1: disabled and broke and surviving abuse and needing support. Then 456 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 1: I really sucked. I was just another needy, weak girl. Hum. 457 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: The one place fem people could receive respect in those 458 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,439 Speaker 1: communities was if we were tough and vulnerable, always on 459 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: and never needing a thing. I know I'm not alone, 460 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: and I know this experience has not ended. 461 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,159 Speaker 2: I find that interesting that being tough and which is 462 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 2: again kind of that whole. We've talked about it in 463 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:17,120 Speaker 2: so many episodes, whether it's a mom episode, whether it's 464 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 2: about pain or being a survivor of trauma, like this 465 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 2: needs to be tough and in being able to show 466 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 2: that you can handle it as if that's a merit. 467 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 2: And what's going on. What I want to tease out 468 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 2: and focus on are the ways that misogyny, fem phobia, 469 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 2: and trans misogyny come together to royally screw over fem 470 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 2: people of many genders. How misogyny, femphobia, and trans misogyny 471 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 2: are part of the global systems of gender that extract 472 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 2: the hell of a lot of labor and energy from 473 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 2: film and feminized people from parenting and caretaking being considered 474 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 2: free labor to sexist assumptions of film from availability being 475 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 2: made in queer and trans communities. Also, the gen ned 476 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,240 Speaker 2: wage gap is real. Cists and trans women really do 477 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 2: get paid lessons to men and women and films who 478 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 2: are racialized, disabled, in prison, and institutionalized, trans, rural and 479 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 2: poor working class get paid extra bad. 480 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is. 481 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 1: Kind of unrelated, kind of related, but we just did 482 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: an episode on what's going on with strikes, the actor 483 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 1: strike and the writer strike, and I read a lot 484 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: about kind of women, and in particular black women, being 485 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: frustrated because they'd had conversations with the men that they're 486 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: striking with that just dismiss them, and so like they're 487 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 1: in the same cause they're doing they want the same 488 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 1: things mostly, but having that like and that does happen 489 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: in activism too, Like that's what we talk about with 490 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: white feminism. But it's also like, if you're talking about 491 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 1: just all of these ways that activism is raised and gendered, 492 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: in class and all of those those things, it doesn't 493 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: go away just because you're all working towards this one, 494 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 1: you know, general idea. Here's another quote, sick and disabled 495 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: folks will get up from where we've been projectile vomiting 496 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: for the past eight hours to drive a spare effectsor 497 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: to their friend's house who just ran out. We do 498 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: this because we love each other and because we often 499 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 1: have a sacred trust not to forget about each other 500 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: able body. People who think we are weak have no idea. 501 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 1: Every day of our disabled lives is like an ironman triathlon. 502 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 1: Disabled sick, poor, working class, sex, working and black and 503 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: brown fems are some of the toughest and most resilient folks. 504 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 1: I know you have to develop complex strengths to survive 505 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: this world as us. I love how working class, fim 506 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: and disabled this care labor is. I just wanted to 507 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 1: also not be seen as an automatic expectation of any 508 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: film at any time. I want some rules so we 509 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 1: don't feel drained, exhausted and over. I want it to 510 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: be a choice, and I want its next level genius 511 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 1: of skill to be recognized. This is skilled labor. 512 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 2: I think that's such an important conversation because, yeah, with 513 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 2: Keia Brown last year, when we were having these conversations 514 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 2: about being a black woman, a black disabled woman in 515 00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 2: these spaces, and then having that conversation of having to 516 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 2: be strong because of their race, like having to pretend 517 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 2: like that that is something that's so easy and so 518 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 2: like you're used to it, so keep doing that and 519 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 2: you're incredible and you should always do that, and it's 520 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 2: like no, but it's tiring, right, And that's that same 521 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 2: level of everything. Like when we talk about again with 522 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 2: all the missagen Noir leaning on black women for leadership, 523 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 2: they're like, no, we want you to do it for yourself. 524 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 2: We're doing it because we have to, not because we 525 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,360 Speaker 2: want to. This is not about something that we are 526 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 2: so proud to do and we wanted to take up. 527 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 2: Is because everybody else was failing and they started like 528 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 2: they left the world to us, and that's where we are. 529 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 2: And the truth of the matter is they would rather 530 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 2: have someone else do it and let them rest for 531 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 2: just a damn second. 532 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 1: Right, right, And I like the reframing here of toughness 533 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,520 Speaker 1: is like just surviving when no one else is helping you, 534 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: rather than other people in your situation. But like the 535 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: systems aren't helping you, most of society is an't helping you. 536 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: You're finding this community and you are, but like that 537 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: idea of the tough thing is just helping other people 538 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,840 Speaker 1: or getting through your day when no one else, No 539 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: one else is doing anything to help you, and all 540 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:50,880 Speaker 1: of the There's a whole other section I cut out 541 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:56,239 Speaker 1: that was about those kind of emotional skills people with 542 00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: disability develop and how they are not given the do 543 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: that they should be. They are not seen as the 544 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 1: skill that they should be, like things like that, and yeah, 545 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 1: just kind of dismissing this is, oh, you're gonna do it, 546 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: so not recognizing that as a skill or as something 547 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 1: that should be paid and not expected, or at least 548 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: like paige should be an option, which the book also 549 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 1: goes into as well. Here's another quote, and this is 550 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,479 Speaker 1: sort of moving into the suicidality part. We're not going 551 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 1: to get too much into it, but just heads up, 552 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: we don't want platitudes or uplift our people telling us 553 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: were loved. I mean, tell me, but I know I'm loved. 554 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 1: Sometimes hearing that helps. Sometimes I am still deeply, deeply sad. Anyway, 555 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,160 Speaker 1: I don't have the answers, but I am interested in 556 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 1: collectively creating them. I am interested in all of us 557 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 1: who dance with dying talking about all the different and 558 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 1: real things that suicide can mean to us, all the 559 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 1: things that allow us to stay here and more than that, 560 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,719 Speaker 1: I am interested in creating models of how be mostly 561 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 1: queer in trans adulthood, where we can be leaders and 562 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: still be vulnerable, where it can be open that it's 563 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 1: not happily ever after. Life models that encompass falling apart 564 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 1: and reforming not as a failure but as a life pathway. 565 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,320 Speaker 2: And here's another one. The summer after that, Jericho Bolan, 566 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 2: a fourteen year old black queer disabled to find person 567 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 2: with spinal muscular atrophy to announced her planned suicide, saying 568 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,600 Speaker 2: I'm going to be free. Bolan gained mainstream media attention 569 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,279 Speaker 2: for her requested death when she started on Indigogo to 570 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 2: raise money for Jerica's last dance prom in the month 571 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 2: before she would go into the hospice and ask them 572 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 2: to shut off her ventilator. Actions of the media named 573 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 2: as brave and inspirational. She said that she didn't have 574 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 2: a feature that she of course wouldn't be able to 575 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 2: dance or date or love, so she was choosing to die, 576 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,720 Speaker 2: and her announcement of her planned public suicide was cheered 577 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 2: on by her white adoptive family and mostly white rural 578 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 2: farming community of Appleton, Wisconsin. 579 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: Yeah that goes to show how harmful that narrative is 580 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 1: of like you can't there's no future, you can't be happy, 581 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:15,280 Speaker 1: there's like no possibility. And I do love how open 582 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 1: the author was about their own struggles with suicidality, because 583 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 1: I think that's true. I don't think we talk about 584 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: that enough, Like you cannot have a reason, you could 585 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 1: not have a specific thing, you could be generally happy, 586 00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:35,160 Speaker 1: and that feeling comes anyway, and I don't I agree, 587 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 1: we don't talk about that enough. 588 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 2: Right, And I think something that they also point out, 589 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 2: because this whole kind of narrative is this idea of 590 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:47,800 Speaker 2: curing something, and they talk about that a lot, like 591 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 2: we're not asking you to cure us. That is not 592 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 2: a thing. That is not what we're looking in. And 593 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 2: I know we'd mentioned it earlier when we say they 594 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,759 Speaker 2: want a relief of pain, they want the relief of anxiety, 595 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 2: not to be cured. And I think it kind of 596 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,719 Speaker 2: comes into that same conversation about what does cure look 597 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,879 Speaker 2: like and what does it mean when you're a friend 598 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 2: of yours who die by suicide, Like what does that mean? 599 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 2: And is that a celebration? Is that mournful? Like there's 600 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 2: so many conversations to that, because it's not strange and 601 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 2: even as a person who is able to body and 602 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 2: I say that as able by a person but that 603 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,479 Speaker 2: has also mental health needs, like I have definitely had 604 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 2: thoughts of suicide many at times. And that's that reality, 605 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 2: is that it's not just two people of physical disabilities, 606 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 2: and that's a reminder of that. It's like also one 607 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 2: and being said and one being a celebration. That's really 608 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:45,960 Speaker 2: ablest and really really disheartening. 609 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: It is very, very disheartening. And I wanted to include 610 00:36:55,480 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 1: this final quote, even though once again I could have. 611 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 1: It was fifteen pages originally, but fems, I love you 612 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 1: when your handshake too much from meds or stress or 613 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 1: disability to put on eyeliner, let alone put it on perfectly. 614 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:15,839 Speaker 1: I love you when you don't wear eyeliner. I love 615 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 1: you when you are deeply sad, raging in despair, not pretty, 616 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,720 Speaker 1: in the same sweats for three days or a month, 617 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 1: when you smell like sweat and fear and the deep sad. 618 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:28,759 Speaker 1: I love you when you cough up phlegm. I love 619 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,279 Speaker 1: you when you scream and rage and ache. I love 620 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:33,480 Speaker 1: you when you don't wear those five inch heels because 621 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 1: your feet hurt, or it's a sexier choice as a 622 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,839 Speaker 1: disabled fem to wear kicks like the gold glitter ones 623 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 1: I'm wearing right now. And I want a community where 624 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: we can be messy and pain hurting, imperfect, and we 625 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: really know that our genders are still seen and cherished. 626 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,320 Speaker 1: I just love that. I love I think that's also 627 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,799 Speaker 1: going back to what you said, is this idea of 628 00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: like community of not looking for the cure, but looking 629 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:05,800 Speaker 1: for a world where people with disability can be supported 630 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:10,319 Speaker 1: and not have to fight so hard to get to 631 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: get that support, to get basic needs, where it's not 632 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 1: depended on where your friends can be there for you, 633 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,279 Speaker 1: but also you can have something else if they can't 634 00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,280 Speaker 1: be there for you right that time. 635 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, there's so many things that they write down. 636 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 2: They even talk about being able to meet people where 637 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 2: they're at. They talk about the movements in California where 638 00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 2: they thought it was gonna be a mecca and a home, 639 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,320 Speaker 2: but then there are so many stipulations and hierarchies even there. 640 00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 2: They open up about people who want to be Oh, 641 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 2: the whole conversation about what disability justice it was like 642 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 2: that that was an incredible conversation because oftentimes people who 643 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:54,719 Speaker 2: are on the outside with like good intentions fall so 644 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 2: hard and then get frustrated at those that they're trying 645 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,600 Speaker 2: to help that you're like, what was the point then, 646 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 2: what what are you really doing? Because they don't look 647 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,319 Speaker 2: at it. Again, We've talked about this before, We've been 648 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,560 Speaker 2: talking about it a lot recently, because they're not at 649 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:11,359 Speaker 2: the table. They're not there to have their opinions talked 650 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,240 Speaker 2: about or even a part of the conversation. So therefore 651 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 2: there's no understanding of those things things that we don't 652 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 2: think about and take for granted, but they immediately take, 653 00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:27,279 Speaker 2: like immediately think on it, whether it's access through having 654 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,439 Speaker 2: to sit down, or having to have medications being done, 655 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 2: having to be able to go into a different area, 656 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 2: to be able to calm and have a space out, Like, 657 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 2: there's so many things that it's not often thought about. 658 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,440 Speaker 2: I feel like maybe people are getting better, but they're 659 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 2: still not understanding. If you don't include the people who 660 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:51,920 Speaker 2: you are trying to fight for, you're never actually doing justice. 661 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,120 Speaker 1: Right, right, And that goes back to the accessibility of 662 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 1: movements like this and why this is so necessary and 663 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 1: it really is, like, please read it. I wish I'd 664 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 1: read it earlier. And there's so much more that we 665 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 1: could talk about with this, and I'm sure we'll come 666 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 1: back to it, but in the meantime, if you have 667 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 1: any suggestions for books we should read, you can email 668 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,440 Speaker 1: us at Stuff Media, Momstuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You 669 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,880 Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter at moms Stuff Podcasts, or 670 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 1: on Instagram and TikTok at stuff Whenever Told You. We 671 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,440 Speaker 1: have a tea public store with merchandise. We also have 672 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,320 Speaker 1: a book you can pre order at stuff you Should 673 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:31,000 Speaker 1: Read books dot com and on Audible. Thanks as always 674 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 1: to our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya, and 675 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,560 Speaker 1: our contributor Joey. Thank you all so much, Yes, and 676 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:38,840 Speaker 1: thanks to you for listening. Steffan Never Told Me is 677 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,160 Speaker 1: the protection of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, 678 00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:43,080 Speaker 1: you can check out the art radio app, Apple Podcasts, 679 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:51,800 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.