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Speaker 1: From Mediators World News headquarters in Bozeman, Montana. This is

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Speaker 1: Col's we Can Review with Ryan cal Callahan. Now here's Cal.

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Speaker 2: What is uh Col's wee Can Review, Cal of the Wild.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure if you're going to start seeing that

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Speaker 2: new logo yet, but we did a bunch of new

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Speaker 2: artwork and pictures and yes it features snort, which is,

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Speaker 2: you know, fun for me, fun for you. It's really

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Speaker 2: why you're here. I get it, but I know you're

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Speaker 2: also super interested in conservation. So that's why this week's

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Speaker 2: special drop is with Chris Jenkins of the Orient Society.

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Speaker 2: And if you are wondering what the Orient Society is,

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Speaker 2: well you're in the right place because I want to

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Speaker 2: know too, and as you probably are painfully aware, I

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Speaker 2: ask a lot of questions, but it's really just for you.

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Speaker 2: So without further ado, CEO Chris Jenkins of the Orient Society, Chris,

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Speaker 2: can you tell us who you are and what the

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Speaker 2: heck the Orient Society is or how it came about?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Sure, thanks for having me on CAL. This is

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Speaker 1: a this is great and I am a really kind

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Speaker 1: of a wildlife biologist, you know, conservation biologist by training,

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Speaker 1: you know, grew up rural New England doing a lot

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Speaker 1: of hunting and angling and looking for frogs and snakes

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Speaker 1: and all of those good things. And then went on

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Speaker 1: through university and and you know it was ultimately going

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Speaker 1: to be a professor, but ended up working on a

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Speaker 1: variety of wildlife conservation projects in your region. In the

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Speaker 1: Northern Rockies. I worked in and around Yellowstone National Park

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Speaker 1: on a whole variety of species from ranging from you know,

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Speaker 1: sage grouse to pygmy rabbits to rattlesnakes, so quite a

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Speaker 1: diversity of experience. But after I left the Greater Yellowstone ecosystem,

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Speaker 1: I founded a new wildlife conservation nonprofit called the Oriane

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Speaker 1: Society and Orient Society and myself. We're based down in

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Speaker 1: Georgia and I live in the probably not what most

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Speaker 1: of your listeners think of when they think of Georgia.

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Speaker 1: I live in the mountains. A lot of people don't

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Speaker 1: even realize there are mountains in Georgia, but we have

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Speaker 1: the northern part of the States pretty significant mountains, lots

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Speaker 1: of wilderness areas, big national forest and wild and scenic rivers.

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Speaker 1: Just a really beautiful place. If anybody's been to been

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Speaker 1: to Great Smoky Mountains National Park. It's actually very close

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Speaker 1: to there, and people can kind of have a you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of imagine what it's like where we're based. And

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Speaker 1: the Orient Society is, you know, again a wildlife conservation nonprofit.

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Speaker 1: And to explain what we do, it's probably the best

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Speaker 1: to explain what we don't do, in that we don't

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Speaker 1: do advocacy, litigation, lobbying, those types of conservation approaches. We

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Speaker 1: do what we call science fueled boots on the ground conservation.

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Speaker 1: And so what that really means is that we do

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Speaker 1: science and on the ground conservation conservation. We really get

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Speaker 1: your hands dirty. So so first on the science side,

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Speaker 1: you know, we we do a lot of scientific research,

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Speaker 1: all research, you know of an applied nature research that

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Speaker 1: will tell us something about a species we're interested in

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Speaker 1: that will allow us to in turn work on conservation

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Speaker 1: projects in an informed way for those species. So we

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Speaker 1: have graduate students. I'm adjunct faculty at UGA, I have

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Speaker 1: other staff who are also faculty members at different universities.

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Speaker 1: But really the biggest part of what we do is

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Speaker 1: the boots on the ground conservation part. And when I

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Speaker 1: say boots on the ground, getting your hands dirty it's

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Speaker 1: the types of things such as buying land, conserving land

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Speaker 1: in different forms, a lot of habitat restoration work. We

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Speaker 1: do a lot of wetlands restoration. We do a lot

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Speaker 1: of prescribed fire in different landscapes around North America. We

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Speaker 1: do a lot of like captive breeding and reintroduction programs

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Speaker 1: for species that have gone extinct. You know, we integrate

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Speaker 1: well with federal state agencies. Other nonprofits do a lot

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Speaker 1: of conservation planning and working on endangered species recovery plans

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Speaker 1: for example. So so really diverse. But again, we use science,

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Speaker 1: and we take the results from our science and and

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Speaker 1: you know, just kind of the scientific world at large,

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Speaker 1: and use that information to inform actions on the ground

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Speaker 1: to conserve wildlife. And probably one of the most unique

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Speaker 1: things about us is that we are focused on those

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Speaker 1: groups of species that that most of the world, even

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Speaker 1: the wildlife world, loves to hate or has forgotten. And

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Speaker 1: so we are focused on reptiles and amphibians. You know, personally,

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Speaker 1: I'm a I'm a venomous snake expert. I work quite

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Speaker 1: a lot with rattlesnakes and venomous snakes really, you know,

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Speaker 1: all over the world. And but but we focus on snakes, turtles, frogs, salamanders,

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Speaker 1: things of that nature. And the last thing I'll say

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Speaker 1: about that is that I don't want to like have

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Speaker 1: your audience just tune out if this is largely a

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Speaker 1: hunting and angling, say based audience. First of all, as

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Speaker 1: you know Cal, because we both serve on the board

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Speaker 1: of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers together, I am also a

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Speaker 1: very avid hunter and angler. You know, I hunt and

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Speaker 1: fish over one hundred and fifty days a year. It's

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Speaker 1: a huge part of my life. And you're working on

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Speaker 1: conservation through that, you know, policy and advocacy in the

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Speaker 1: hunting and angling space is a huge, huge part of

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Speaker 1: what I do. But I will say that what the

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Speaker 1: orient In society does it is very much in tune

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Speaker 1: with that. And I view whether I'm working on conserving

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Speaker 1: a federally endangered snake or I'm working at trying to

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Speaker 1: increase turkey populations in the Southeast. To me, that all

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Speaker 1: goes hand in hand. And indeed, the things that the

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Speaker 1: orient Society does often really benefits hunting, angling conservation of

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Speaker 1: species such as turkeys that I just mentioned, And I'll

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Speaker 1: give one example of that and then I'll be quiet

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Speaker 1: here and turn it back over to you. But you know,

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Speaker 1: as an example, over the last ten years, orient Society

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Speaker 1: has been working very closely with a large number of nonprofits, universities,

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Speaker 1: state and federal agencies, Chambers of commerce, on and on

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Speaker 1: a long list of partners on something called the Georgia

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Speaker 1: Gopher Tortoise Conservation Initiative. So the one tortoise species we

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Speaker 1: have here in the southeast was a candidate species for

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Speaker 1: federal listing, and this partnership that was put together, we

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Speaker 1: really wanted them to not go on the endangered species

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Speaker 1: list and keep them in the management of the States

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Speaker 1: for a whole variety of reasons. You know, first of all,

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Speaker 1: we wanted the species to be successful. So in doing that,

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Speaker 1: we worked on a plan where over the course of

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Speaker 1: these ten years, we helped create literally hundreds of thousands

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Speaker 1: of acres of new public land in South Georgia. And

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Speaker 1: you know, all of those acres are now places that

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Speaker 1: you can go and you can hike, bird, watch, hunt, fish,

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Speaker 1: do whatever it is that you're interested in. So there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of intersections here between your audience, my personal

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Speaker 1: interest in hunting and fishing, and this conservation focus on reptiles.

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Speaker 1: And amphibians that the Orient Society works on.

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Speaker 2: And what so, you know, at the beginning you said,

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Speaker 2: you know, folks love to hate the species that the

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Speaker 2: Orient Society focuses on. Is that where the need lies

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Speaker 2: for the Orient Society or is it just the fact

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Speaker 2: that like a state Fish and Game agency is so

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Speaker 2: focused on on ungulet's.

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Speaker 1: Let's say that.

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Speaker 2: Some of the needs of the of those other species

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Speaker 2: get lost. Where where's the niche?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, the first thing I'd say is that

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Speaker 1: this goes back a long time, you know, like biblical

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Speaker 1: times in some ways. But you know, people, you know,

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Speaker 1: you can even take so if we look at say mammalogy,

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Speaker 1: study of mammals, ornithology study of birds, and then herpetology

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Speaker 1: is the study of reptiles and amphibians. And the truth

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Speaker 1: is that reptiles and amphibians are very very different groups

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Speaker 1: of animals, but they get put into the same group.

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Speaker 1: And the reason behind that is because historically they were

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Speaker 1: thought of as kind of the you know, kind of

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Speaker 1: the animals that the ichy, the gross, the dangerous animals.

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Speaker 1: So they end up getting lumped together. So, first of all,

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Speaker 1: there's a deep history here of people not liking me animals,

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Speaker 1: but there is a significant need, and that is I'll

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Speaker 1: just give you some superlatives that illustrate this. So a

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Speaker 1: lot of your listeners are probably familiar with i UCN,

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Speaker 1: the International Union for the Conservation of Nature.

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Speaker 2: And they get a name drop on this podcast pretty

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Speaker 2: much every week.

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Speaker 1: There you go. We I work quite a bit with them.

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Speaker 1: I founded the Viper Specialist Group that the group that

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Speaker 1: works around the world on vipers. Are currently in the

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Speaker 1: North American chair for the Snake Specialist Group, So I

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Speaker 1: work with them quite quite a bit. But as your

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Speaker 1: listeners likely know, they have a classification system for how

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Speaker 1: rare or threatened animals are. You can find that information

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Speaker 1: through the red List, because most countries don't have something

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Speaker 1: like you know, federal or state level kind of listing,

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Speaker 1: something like an Endangered Species Act or state level. So anyways,

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Speaker 1: but if you look at how uc ND data, the

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Speaker 1: most endangered group of animals on the planet are turtles,

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Speaker 1: So over sixty percent of all turtle species in the

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Speaker 1: world are classified as being endangered with extinction. And then

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Speaker 1: other superlatives. You can take amphibians, you know, frogs, salamanders, sicilians,

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Speaker 1: these types of animals they are experiencing some of the

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Speaker 1: most rapid declines and extinction rates of any vertebrates or

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Speaker 1: any types of wildlife that we know of. It's just

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Speaker 1: incredibly dramatic. It's moving around the world literally waves of

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Speaker 1: disease that are wiping out huge to sweets of species

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Speaker 1: and then even snakes. You know. The thing with snakes,

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Speaker 1: I would say is that they're one of the least

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Speaker 1: known understood scientifically, and one of the least understood scientifically

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Speaker 1: of all the wildlife species for a whole number of reasons.

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Speaker 1: So if we look at IUCN, say conservation status information,

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Speaker 1: we know very little about snakes. So the first point

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Speaker 1: there is that, yes, there is an incredible need To

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Speaker 1: get to your second point, you mentioned ungulates, and the

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Speaker 1: first thing I'd say is, I'm a huge fan of

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Speaker 1: ungulates and bears and all these different types of wildlife.

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Speaker 1: But you know, and I would say that conservation of

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Speaker 1: something like an elk population, you know, could benefit you know,

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Speaker 1: reptiles and amphibians, just like conserving a gopher tortoise in

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Speaker 1: the southeast here could conserve a you know, could conserve

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Speaker 1: a turkey population. And so again I kind of think

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Speaker 1: of this all in the same sphere. But as you're

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Speaker 1: well aware, col funding sources are much different for these

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Speaker 1: and you know, through a whole variety of mechanisms. But

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Speaker 1: you know, people are very aware of things like the

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Speaker 1: Pittman Robertson Act. Those types of things provide a lot

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Speaker 1: of funding for the species we love to go out

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Speaker 1: and you know, pursue, but a lot of these non

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Speaker 1: game species, while they do benefit from some of that,

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Speaker 1: they don't have anywhere near the same level of conservation

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Speaker 1: funding that is put directly towards them. And so and

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Speaker 1: you can just look at the size you know, again

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Speaker 1: we're not funded necessarily completely by federal or state dollars,

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Speaker 1: but you can look at the size of the nonprofits.

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Speaker 1: If you take the bird world for example, you start

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Speaker 1: listing off the big bird organizations you know, you you know,

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Speaker 1: not even in the hunting space, just go like Autubon,

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Speaker 1: you know, American Bird Conservancy, Cornell Lab of Ornithology, on

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Speaker 1: and on there are you know, these groups have hundreds

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Speaker 1: of thousands of members across them, they have millions, tens

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Speaker 1: or hundreds of millions of dollars in budget. So while

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Speaker 1: the orient in society, with the exception of sea turtle organizations.

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Speaker 1: We are the largest conservation nonprofit in the United States

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Speaker 1: for these groups of animals. You know, we operate on

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Speaker 1: you know, a less than two million dollars a year budget.

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Speaker 1: We've got twelve full time staff. So, I mean, you

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Speaker 1: can just look at the nonprofits and how they're funded by,

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Speaker 1: you know, the world around us, and the scale of

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Speaker 1: these animals, interest in these animals and resources available to

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Speaker 1: conserve them is significantly different.

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Speaker 2: One thing that I try to remind people offen right

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Speaker 2: is exactly what you said, is the conservation specifically, like

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Speaker 2: the habitat conservation for game species also benefits non game species.

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Speaker 2: Is that something you would largely agree with or disagree with,

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Speaker 2: because it's obviously not the same as habitat conservation with

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Speaker 2: a you know, a new a skank salamander in mind.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I would say in general, conservation for

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Speaker 1: wildlife that aims to, you know, in some form conserve

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Speaker 1: and manage habitats as you're talking about in some form

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Speaker 1: of a natural state is generally going to benefit a

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Speaker 1: lot of things. I mean, there may be some very

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Speaker 1: specific examples where you know, I don't know, we're really

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Speaker 1: want close canopy for us for some species, and there's

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Speaker 1: another one that really likes open But you know, in general,

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Speaker 1: doing these types of habitat conservation projects I think typically

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Speaker 1: benefit a lot of species. I mean, there's certainly probably

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Speaker 1: examples in the world of you know, let's just say,

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Speaker 1: very heavily managed game species population. It's maybe managed just

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Speaker 1: to make maximize the productivity of that species in a

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Speaker 1: very intense, manicured way that you know, maybe is taking

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Speaker 1: it's not truly restoring or managing habitats to some you know,

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Speaker 1: historic state or some level of quality. It's just focused

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Speaker 1: on that game species. So there may be cases where

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Speaker 1: you have that type of intense management for one species

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Speaker 1: that then you know, is having a negative effect on

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Speaker 1: a number of others. But in general, you know, I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of you take your average you know,

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Speaker 1: piece of state public land here in the state of Georgia,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of the habitat management that they're doing,

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Speaker 1: for example, say to benefit turkeys or white tails is

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Speaker 1: often you know, going to benefit many of the non

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Speaker 1: game species as well.

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Speaker 2: So, and let's let's talk about your is the orient

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Speaker 2: Society is that a membership based organization.

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Speaker 1: It is, so we do have a series of membership levels,

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Speaker 1: and you know, we have a newsletter that comes out

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Speaker 1: and we try to really you know, our communications program

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Speaker 1: is really geared towards conservation because again we you know,

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Speaker 1: these animals, as you know we've talked about, they really

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Speaker 1: have a pr problem. And so a huge part of

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Speaker 1: our active conservation is communication. And then you get to

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Speaker 1: like some of the species work on like venomous snakes,

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Speaker 1: it's even a bigger component of what we do. And

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Speaker 1: so we we produce a lot of content podcasts, blogs, blogs,

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Speaker 1: just different documentaries. We put out a lot of content

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Speaker 1: around the conservation work that we do. And so by

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Speaker 1: following us in some form, either you following our newsletter

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Speaker 1: becoming a member, these are these are activities that did

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Speaker 1: you get or information and and there are certainly activities

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Speaker 1: and events that you get linked into. We are working

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Speaker 1: on concepts to make our membership maybe a little bit

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Speaker 1: more like say back country Hunters and Anglers, where you

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Speaker 1: and I serve together, and meaning that currently our membership

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Speaker 1: does not do a lot of the active work on

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Speaker 1: the ground for the organization. It's typically done by the

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Speaker 1: organization staff and students. Again, we do have some events

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Speaker 1: where we bring together members to work on particular projects.

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Speaker 1: But it is structured a little bit different than your

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Speaker 1: typical hunting organization in that regard. But again, we are

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Speaker 1: the board is currently kind of working on strategies for

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Speaker 1: how to make it so make it more membership driven

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Speaker 1: in certain ways. So it would not surprise me if

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Speaker 1: within the next handful of years you start to see

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Speaker 1: a structure where the orient Society has say a Georgia chapter,

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Speaker 1: a Montana chapter, and we have members who are out

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Speaker 1: there working on whatever it might be. Habitat conservation project,

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Speaker 1: we're storing a species that's in decline, you know, so

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Speaker 1: that we're kind of heading in that direction. But we

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Speaker 1: do have a membership program, and i'd encourage everybody to

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Speaker 1: check it out.

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Speaker 2: Just out of curiosity. When you're talking reptiles, amphibians, vipers, rattlesnakes,

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Speaker 2: what how would you classify your membership? Does it attract

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Speaker 2: a certain group of people?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a that's a good question. So first of all,

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Speaker 1: people would be amazed the number of people in let's

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Speaker 1: just take the United States, let alone the world that

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Speaker 1: are really interested in reptiles in some form, And so

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Speaker 1: I would say our membership is is fairly diverse. One

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Speaker 1: of the big demographics that are interested in reptiles and

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Speaker 1: amphibians are people that keep them for pets. You know,

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Speaker 1: get that. There are literally millions of people in the

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Speaker 1: US that keep reptiles and amphibians for pets. They're often

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Speaker 1: one of the you know, the easier species to keep,

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Speaker 1: and it's just a huge, huge, you know, multi billion

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Speaker 1: dollar industry. So that's a demographic. That demographic is really

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Speaker 1: diverse in terms of their views relative to conservation, and

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Speaker 1: you know, where we're focused on conservation in the wild,

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Speaker 1: we certainly get some of that demographic. There's also a

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Speaker 1: growing and kind of interesting demographic that is that's it

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Speaker 1: would be kind of analogous to like birders. You know,

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Speaker 1: so people go out and have these life lists and

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Speaker 1: they're trying to check off all these bird species. But

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Speaker 1: there are these groups of people called field herpers, and

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Speaker 1: field herpers are like that. They in their spare time

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Speaker 1: to recreate, they go out and they look for reptiles

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Speaker 1: and amphibians.

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Speaker 2: And herpers would be like herpetologist exactly.

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Speaker 1: They're going out into the field looking for herbs, which

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Speaker 1: are reptiles amphibian So it's like a again it's like

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Speaker 1: a burder. It's somebody who like on the weekend, what

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Speaker 1: they do for fun is they go out and they

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Speaker 1: just try to find these animals. You know, lots of

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Speaker 1: times they're photographing them. You know, there's a whole series

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Speaker 1: of kind of databases, you know, on the Internet that

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Speaker 1: they're submitting data into. And it's a really large and

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Speaker 1: growing group, to the point where some states are actually

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Speaker 1: have regulations around it, you know, like they would hunting

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Speaker 1: and angling. You know, Texas, for example, there's you know,

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Speaker 1: you need to buy a hunting license to be outfield herping,

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Speaker 1: and you know, there are specific rules and regulations just

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Speaker 1: like you would have if you were going to go

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Speaker 1: out and say, hunt a white tailed deer. So. And

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Speaker 1: then there are other demographics. You know, we have people

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Speaker 1: who are just generally interested in conservation, and there are

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Speaker 1: a number of people like me. It's been kind of

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Speaker 1: surprising that have this kind of a dual interest, like

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Speaker 1: in hunting and angling and reptiles. You know, I think

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Speaker 1: we're taught to be afraid of a lot of these animals,

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Speaker 1: but when people get past that emotion and realize that

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Speaker 1: you know, something like you know, a rattlesnake is actually,

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to get bit by one.

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Speaker 1: I don't think any of us do. But it's actually

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Speaker 1: a really cool and fascinating animal and seeing one in

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Speaker 1: the while they're finding one is really cool, just like

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Speaker 1: say tracking down a whitetail in Maine or something. It's

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Speaker 1: just this event like that. And so there's a there's

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Speaker 1: a good number of people and I think that's growing

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Speaker 1: as well, that you know, kind of walk that line

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Speaker 1: of the hunting at angling community and also having an

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Speaker 1: interest in reptiles. And you know, my world's always been

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Speaker 1: walking that line, and it's been interesting because there's a

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Speaker 1: huge proportion of hunters and anglers, for whatever reason fear

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Speaker 1: just how we're taught, actually dislike reptiles and amphibians. And

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Speaker 1: then there's a large number of reptile amphibian people who

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Speaker 1: are kind of anti hunting. And so I've always kind

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Speaker 1: of been in this strange place in between, but I've

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Speaker 1: always carried that flag that you know, these these are

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Speaker 1: both really important things. They both are important to conservation,

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Speaker 1: and I'm seeing more and more of that, you know,

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Speaker 1: through BHA and in other places where I'm connecting to people.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, it's such an interesting thing, right because hunting

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Speaker 2: it puts you in places where you're going to run

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Speaker 2: across a bunch of different species, right, Like, that's a

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Speaker 2: huge part of why we go after an elk and

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Speaker 2: a deer and everything else. Is that time in nature.

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Speaker 2: And you bring up an interesting point right where it's

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Speaker 2: like you're you are taught, to a degree varying degrees

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Speaker 2: to disregard certain species, whether that's because it's going to

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Speaker 2: distract you from what you're supposed to be doing, or

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Speaker 2: because there is a fear as in you know, the

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Speaker 2: case of a rattlesnake, right, so you know, as you know,

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Speaker 2: like when when Snort got whacked by that snake in Idaho,

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Speaker 2: I had a lot of people right in and say like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I kill everyone I see, And I just got to say, like,

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Speaker 2: we we've run across many more rattlesnakes here in Montana

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Speaker 2: since Snort got bit, and they all lived to rattle

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Speaker 2: another day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, and yeah, I'm a huge into rattlesnakes,

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Speaker 1: but I have bird dogs as you do. Actually, two

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Speaker 1: nights ago I came out onto my back patio and

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Speaker 1: my English Cocker spaniel was literally nose to nose with

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Speaker 1: a copperhead and didn't get a bite. But I've had

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Speaker 1: my some of my bird dogs get venomous snake bites before.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, it's just to me, it's all part of

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Speaker 1: the natural world and it's not the way I look

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Speaker 1: at it, quite honestly, and I can't. I can't be

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Speaker 1: like a you know, sit up on this soapbox and

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Speaker 1: say nobody should ever kill a snake. And a lot

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Speaker 1: of people do that because I kill so many animals,

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Speaker 1: you know, to eat and you know, just through you know,

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Speaker 1: my different forms of recreation. But a couple of things there.

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Speaker 1: For first of all, the way that we kill snakes

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Speaker 1: in this country and the way most people think about

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Speaker 1: killing snakes is you kill any snake you see any

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Speaker 1: time anywhere. I'm generalizing, of course, but you know, if

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Speaker 1: I was to tell you or you know, one of

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Speaker 1: the listeners that hey, I'm going to go out and

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Speaker 1: I'm going to kill every bear that I see, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to kill them year round, day, night, on and

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Speaker 1: on in an unregulated fashion. People, you know, that's just

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't do that, obviously, but you know, you would

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Speaker 1: be horribly upset with me and and the way we

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Speaker 1: look at snakes is not as wildlife that we want

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Speaker 1: to manage. Maybe we don't want them at our back door.

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Speaker 1: I don't want my dog bit, but I want to

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Speaker 1: know that up on that mountain behind my house is

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Speaker 1: a is a timber rattlesnake population, and you know it's

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Speaker 1: a wild place, and and so you know there's there's

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Speaker 1: a number of different angles there. The other thing i'd say,

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Speaker 1: you know, and I know you've even heard me say

404
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Speaker 1: this cow, is that in doing that and killing every rattlesnake,

405
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Speaker 1: we see what we we don't know enough. I'm not

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Speaker 1: saying we should never kill a rattlesnake, but the difference

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Speaker 1: is that we know a lot about elk populations, population dynamics,

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Speaker 1: animal behavior, on and on. We know a lot about

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Speaker 1: their science. Or you can go to white tails, even

410
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Speaker 1: where we know you know infinitely more. We know so

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Speaker 1: little about rattlesnakes and their population, biology and all of

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Speaker 1: these things, and to effectively harvest them in a regulated

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Speaker 1: way where people are allowed to kill the snakes, but

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Speaker 1: the snakes are still going to persist. You know, we

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Speaker 1: just don't have the information for that. And I will

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Speaker 1: tell you the information we have for rattlesnakes might be

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Speaker 1: more like I'm trying to think of the best way

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Speaker 1: for the audience, it'd be like the difference between a

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Speaker 1: white tail and a mountain goat, meaning in terms of

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Speaker 1: their reproductive rates and those types of things. You can

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Speaker 1: kill a lot more white tails and they're still going

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Speaker 1: to have pretty high production at a population level, whereas

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Speaker 1: mountain goats are not, you know, going to you're not

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Speaker 1: gonna be able to harvest mountain goats at that same

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Speaker 1: level and be able to maintain a sustainable population. We

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Speaker 1: know rattlesnake populations based on their reproductive biology that they

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Speaker 1: have a really slow, long life, reproduct, low reproductive output.

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Speaker 1: They're not the type of species that you can kill

429
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,719
Speaker 1: just kind of any time anywhere, and they're still going

430
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 1: to persist on the landscape there. You know, there are

431
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 1: some states like Pennsylvania for example. I know I'm in

432
00:27:58,160 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: a huge tangent call. I'll get off of it right

433
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 1: after this, But there's some states like Pennsylvania for example,

434
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 1: that has a hunting season for rattlesnakes. That and if

435
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 1: you go and you buy like their version of sportsman

436
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 1: package or whatever they call it, and you get your

437
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 1: bear tag and your white tail tags and your you know,

438
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: trout stamp whatever all the components might be there. One

439
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 1: of the things you get is a rattlesnake tag, and

440
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:22,360
Speaker 1: there's a rattlesnake season.

441
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 2: There's a rattlesnake tag and a rattlesnake season, yep, and.

442
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: You and there are regulations around it. You have to

443
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: you have to harvest a mail. It has to be

444
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 1: of a certain size, you know, on and on and

445
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 1: and and I will tell you that I did an

446
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 1: episode on this on my podcast called Snake Talk. And

447
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 1: this is one of the tools that the state of

448
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania use to recover timber rattlesnakes. And they now have

449
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: some of the strongest timber attlesnake populations in the country.

450
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 1: But but but they provided a way where people could

451
00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: kill a snake, you know, for meat, for the skin,

452
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 1: for the rattle, whatever it might be. But at the

453
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: same time, just like we think of all other wildlife,

454
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 1: they're doing it in a managed, regulated way so they can,

455
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 1: you know, try to maintain that species on the landscape

456
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 1: while allowing opportunity for people to have that you know,

457
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 1: interaction with the animal.

458
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 2: So it kind of forces people through a non confrontational

459
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 2: way to look at that species closer. Right, if they

460
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 2: have to sex it and they have to get a

461
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 2: general length it, it can't just be a pure reaction

462
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 2: kill when they come across a state a snake.

463
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, no exactly. I mean they're going out and hunting snakes,

464
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: just like you go out and September say and bohun

465
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: elk and and and the other thing it does is

466
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 1: it uh, you know, it brings value you to that animal.

467
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's a game species. And like you said,

468
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 1: people have to really look at this animal. And I

469
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: won't go into the details of how it's done. It's

470
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 1: also how I handle snakes. But but you know what

471
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 1: these these rattlesnake countries are doing is are physically handling

472
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 1: these rattlesnakes to determine if they're male or female. They're

473
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: doing it in a safe way and so on. But yeah,

474
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: you get this much more in depth knowledge about the animal,

475
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: a really cool animal and and just in general is

476
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 1: bringing more value to the animal. So I kind of

477
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: again I went on a tangent. I don't even if

478
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 1: I fully answered your question, but I do think that

479
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania examples interesting and and you know, just the idea

480
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: of killing every snake you see, to me, it just

481
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense. It's to me, it's like I'm gonna

482
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 1: kill every bear I see. That doesn't make sense to

483
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: me either, because I want to I want to be

484
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: able to go out and hunt bears every year and

485
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 1: have bear meat in my freezer, just like I want

486
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 1: to be able to go out every year and see

487
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:58,120
Speaker 1: some of these rattlesnakes in real wild places. Have you.

488
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 2: It's it's a it's a great, great example. And I'd

489
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 2: love to get another example out of you of like

490
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 2: what the orient Society is like really focused on right now,

491
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 2: if there, if you have a keystone project or or

492
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 2: initiative that you'd like to talk about it, I'd love

493
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 2: to get that. But how much how much snake eating

494
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 2: do you do?

495
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 1: You know, I've never actually eaten a snake. I've eaten

496
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 1: a lot of the kind of classic reptiles and amphibians

497
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: that people eat, many alligators and frogs and and turtles.

498
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: I've never I've never eaten a snake. I'm not saying

499
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: I wouldn't, but I never have. And sure, yes, yeah.

500
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, we grew up, you know, I would have been

501
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 2: a young guy, not a kid. But the first outfitter

502
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 2: I worked for, we ate rattlesnake was not a rare

503
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 2: thing on the menu. They're around hunting camp is there

504
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 2: are a lot of snakes wandering through camp and there

505
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 2: there weren't any that were just killed and discarded. I'll

506
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 2: tell you that much.

507
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 1: So yeah, interesting, Yeah, what what I mean, what are

508
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: your thoughts on on rattlesnake and what it tastes like?

509
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: And you know.

510
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 2: It's it's I I've certainly pulled it off a couple

511
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 2: of times where it was like tender and and uh,

512
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 2: pretty darn enjoyable.

513
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: You know.

514
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 2: There's just like most of our wild game, no fat, right,

515
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 2: so you're or it seems like the grease is in

516
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 2: in that layer just underneath the skin that comes off

517
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 2: with the with the height of the of the snake,

518
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 2: and I would say it's like a dark meat chicken.

519
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 2: And yeah, we used to do do a bunch of stuff.

520
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 2: I will tell you I ran a snake over just

521
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 2: on accident. I'd make a especially big production when you're

522
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:16,760
Speaker 2: towing a trailer and tried to avoid a snake in

523
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 2: the road. But I do try to make sure that

524
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 2: that's not how they meet their end under my tires anyway.

525
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 2: But this particular one did, and I skinned it through

526
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 2: the whole thing on this barbecue as we were getting

527
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 2: camp ready for the season, and returned to the barbecue,

528
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 2: flip my headlamp on, flipped the lid up, and there

529
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 2: was also we also had a road killed pheasant on

530
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 2: there that night too, and the snake had fully coiled

531
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 2: up in the barbecue and was in the striking position

532
00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 2: when the smoke and steam cleared in my head lamp

533
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 2: and I screamed and fell backwards over a cooler behind me.

534
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 1: That's great. Yeah, I picture them doing exactly that if

535
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 1: we put them on fire, just like all those muscles

536
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,320
Speaker 1: tightening up and then coiling right up. That's funny. Yeah

537
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: it was.

538
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's an interesting meat.

539
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:23,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's for sure.

540
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 2: So but yeah, Chris, if so, there's my aside for

541
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 2: you if there's uh, do you have a particular issue

542
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 2: that orian's involved with that you'd really like people to

543
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 2: know about, or something that you think new people to

544
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 2: orient society would be interested in or want to engage in.

545
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say, I mean, first I'll just give

546
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 1: you the twenty second overview of kind of the breadth.

547
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 1: But then I'll focus back in on one project. And

548
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 1: you know, so we have two kind of focal landscapes

549
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 1: that were in really kind of three and they're all

550
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 1: in eastern North America, so the long leaf Pine ecosystem,

551
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: the southern Apalachian region, and then also what we call

552
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:13,719
Speaker 1: the Great Northern Forests, so these would be forests up

553
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:18,280
Speaker 1: in the northeast, you know, places like Adirondacks and southern

554
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 1: New York all the way up through Maine and Quebec.

555
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,320
Speaker 1: And then we have a whole series of smaller projects

556
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 1: all over. We've done a lot of work in the

557
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 1: West looking at energy development and some of the rare rattlesnakes,

558
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: saying like Wyoming and Colorado and other projects really kind

559
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,839
Speaker 1: of spread across the West. We even have some international

560
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,879
Speaker 1: work in Latin America. We work to save giant tortoises

561
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 1: in Africa out in the Seychelle Islands. These are people

562
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 1: probably thought of Galapagos tortoises, but the one in the

563
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 1: Seychelles is called the Aldabra tortoise. So we work on

564
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 1: conserving them and getting them back. But the project I

565
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: would highlight would be down here, and it would be

566
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 1: in the long leaf savannahs. So the long leaf historically

567
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: would have been most of the lowlands of the southeast

568
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: that range from southeastern Virginia all the way to eastern Texas.

569
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 1: And you know, now these days it's a highly fragmented

570
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 1: lots of agriculture, lots of industrial timber, you know, so

571
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 1: it's really just another form of agriculture with trees that

572
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 1: typically wouldn't even be there. But historically most of that

573
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: landscape would have been this kind of open pine forest,

574
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 1: really low density trees, with a lot of religious beautiful

575
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 1: grasses and forbes. It's almost like a savannah, like a

576
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 1: grassland with low density of trees. And so we have

577
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: a huge focus in that region. There's a lot of

578
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 1: really rare reptiles and amphibians, diversities high because the latitude's low,

579
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 1: and there's been a lot of development, so you have

580
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 1: a lot of species that are really in need. And

581
00:36:57,800 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 1: we have a lot of components of that, and I

582
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:00,840
Speaker 1: won't get into them the sake of time, but the

583
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 1: one I'll focus on in terms of getting people involved

584
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 1: is something called the long Leaf Stewardship Center. So we

585
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 1: run a property called the long Leaf Stewardship centertor we

586
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 1: have facilities there, and it's really focused on stewardship of

587
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 1: this long leaf ecosystem and if you want gopher, tortoises,

588
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 1: intogo snakes or turkeys for that matter, these forests don't

589
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:30,919
Speaker 1: function like they did historically. You need to actively manage them.

590
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: There's a number of different components to that. But you know,

591
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 1: I'll highlight fire and you know, I think you've even

592
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 1: done I think you were maybe down at Tall Timbers

593
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: and did an episode on kind of fire in the southeast,

594
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 1: And so that's really huge for us, is prescribed fire.

595
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 1: We have our own prescribe fire teams. Along with that,

596
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,720
Speaker 1: we do a lot of forestry, getting the off site

597
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 1: sometimes non native pines off the landscape and getting the

598
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 1: native pines on the landscape. A lot of groundcover restoration,

599
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 1: so restoring native grasses. So we're always out there at

600
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 1: different times of the year, like essentially vacuuming up grass

601
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,279
Speaker 1: seed and then we're bagging it up and sorting it

602
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 1: and then planting it in other places. And along with that,

603
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: out of the Stewardship Center, we're monitoring a whole variety

604
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: of species, some of them game species such as bob

605
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 1: white coil and other turtles and frogs. And so the

606
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: Stewardship Center is a place where people can come and

607
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 1: volunteer and work with us to help do things like

608
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 1: restore grass if they had the appropriate expertise, potentially prescribed fire,

609
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 1: rare species inventories. It's a place that we give events

610
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 1: and trainings and work with partners to have landowners come

611
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 1: in and learn, whether it be prescribed fire trainings, whether

612
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 1: that be groundcover restoration training. So it's a place out

613
00:38:56,239 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 1: of which our restoration and management teams are based and

614
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 1: you know, from there we we do all kinds of

615
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 1: restoration and management all across South Georgia. But it's also

616
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 1: a place that we bring people to teach them these

617
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 1: techniques so we can amplipot amplify our impact and make

618
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: our impact much more significant over you know, space and

619
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 1: time by empowering and educating all of these people to

620
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: to manage these landscapes and they can find you know,

621
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: everybody can find more information about this or or any

622
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 1: of orient Society's projects and programs by going on our website,

623
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 1: which you can find at www dot O r I

624
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 1: A N N E dot O R G.

625
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 2: Awesome. Well, yeah, we'll get that up on the website

626
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 2: as well, Chris, Thank you very much. Brown. This has

627
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,439
Speaker 2: been really interesting and it's been fun to learn about

628
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,839
Speaker 2: the Orient Society. You know, it's not uh, you may

629
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:03,360
Speaker 2: be aware, but when we're always rattling off like the

630
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 2: ducks and limiteds and the Delta Water Files and the

631
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 2: BHAs and Pheasants forever and quail Forever, Orient Society just

632
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 2: we skipped that one. So I'm happy that we got

633
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 2: to shine a little light on it, on what you're

634
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,280
Speaker 2: doing and how to get involved.

635
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I appreciate you having me on cal I

636
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,760
Speaker 1: love to talk about conservation through the lens of Orient

637
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:31,359
Speaker 1: or BHA or any lens really, and I'm really appreciative

638
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 1: of everything you do for conservation as well.

639
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 2: I appreciate it, buddy. Well, as you know, we're not

640
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 2: stopping anytime soon. The work isn't.

641
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:41,439
Speaker 1: That's right.

642
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, Well thanks a bunch of chras.

643
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 1: Thank you,