1
00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:05,480
Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. I

2
00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:10,040
Speaker 1: in my private life, in the confines of my happy

3
00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:19,000
Speaker 1: marriage with my consenting life practice it on masochism, bondage, dominance,

4
00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:28,200
Speaker 1: all the rest, masks, binds, ropes, fire. Wow. Even just

5
00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:30,200
Speaker 1: saying it like that, I can fill my shoulders. Listen

6
00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,320
Speaker 1: for the first time in decades, I am a masochist.

7
00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:37,159
Speaker 1: In order to achieve sexual gratification, I need to be

8
00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:42,639
Speaker 1: tied up, punched, pinched, whipped, kicked, or otherwise tortured by

9
00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:47,600
Speaker 1: my loving wife. And here's the bigger truth. All of

10
00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:50,760
Speaker 1: us needs something right now. I don't know what you

11
00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:52,600
Speaker 1: do in your bedroom with you a loved one, but

12
00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:56,120
Speaker 1: I do know this. You're probably a little embarrassed about it.

13
00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:58,639
Speaker 1: You probably don't want the rest of us looking at

14
00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:01,560
Speaker 1: you while you do it, unless that's your thing. And

15
00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:05,400
Speaker 1: if so, great, But wouldn't we'd be better off if

16
00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:11,240
Speaker 1: we didn't let shame win. This is probably a familiar voice,

17
00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,160
Speaker 1: that of the great actor Paul Giamatti, who plays the

18
00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:19,320
Speaker 1: character of Chuck Rhodes on the hit Showtime series Billions.

19
00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,040
Speaker 1: Chuck is, at the moment of this speech, a candidate

20
00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:26,480
Speaker 1: for New York State Attorney general since the start of

21
00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:30,360
Speaker 1: the show, he's been harboring a big secret. When I

22
00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:34,400
Speaker 1: heard Chuck's speech, as an avid fan of Billions, I

23
00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,560
Speaker 1: immediately wanted to sit down with the co creator of Billions,

24
00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:49,760
Speaker 1: Brian Koppelman for a special bonus episode. I'm Danny Shapiro,

25
00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,680
Speaker 1: and this is family secrets, Secrets that are kept from us,

26
00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,200
Speaker 1: the secrets we keep from others, and the secrets we

27
00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:03,440
Speaker 1: keep from ourselves. One of the themes that keeps emerging

28
00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,400
Speaker 1: on this podcast is the sense that culturally and societally

29
00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,760
Speaker 1: we are experiencing the era of the end of secrecy.

30
00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:15,120
Speaker 1: Whether it's as a result of DNA testing or the Internet,

31
00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:19,079
Speaker 1: or of the Me Too movement, the explosion and revelation

32
00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,080
Speaker 1: of secrets all around us is allowing us to begin

33
00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,840
Speaker 1: to understand that we may trust others with our deepest

34
00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:30,320
Speaker 1: fears are most deeply held secrets, and one of the

35
00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,160
Speaker 1: first steps in trusting others in this way is the

36
00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,919
Speaker 1: realization that we're not alone. It turns out that Brian

37
00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:40,200
Speaker 1: and I are both a little obsessed with Ralph Waldo Emerson,

38
00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:44,280
Speaker 1: whose essay on self reliance is one I have quoted

39
00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:49,120
Speaker 1: time and again to my students. Emerson wrote, a man

40
00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:51,880
Speaker 1: should learn to detect and watch that gleam of light

41
00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:56,680
Speaker 1: which flashes across his mind from within. Yet he dismisses

42
00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:02,440
Speaker 1: without notice his thought because is his. Why do we

43
00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,200
Speaker 1: do this? Why do we dismiss our own thoughts and

44
00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:14,079
Speaker 1: assume there's something weak, second class shameful about them? So

45
00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:15,919
Speaker 1: first of all, I want to say, it's a great

46
00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,440
Speaker 1: person to talk to you. I'll say if I use

47
00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,519
Speaker 1: the word, I am talking about this. Um. The episode,

48
00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,560
Speaker 1: the speech, the whole thing was written by UM, my

49
00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,320
Speaker 1: partner and me, by David Lean and me. And so

50
00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:30,600
Speaker 1: if if I say I I'm, it's really we. It's

51
00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:32,239
Speaker 1: just annoying to say we all the time because it

52
00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:36,160
Speaker 1: sounds like you're saying the royal weak. So UM, and

53
00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:38,600
Speaker 1: I'll say, you know, Danny, you know my wife's Amy

54
00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:41,560
Speaker 1: a little bit. The novelist Amy compliment and Amy is

55
00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:47,080
Speaker 1: a genius at writing about shame and about secrets, and uh,

56
00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:51,120
Speaker 1: for three novels are are about that. And which is

57
00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:53,240
Speaker 1: to say that we talk about this a lot at home,

58
00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,200
Speaker 1: as you know, like if two writers are in a house,

59
00:03:56,240 --> 00:04:00,360
Speaker 1: they're they're talking about this stuff. And um, about the

60
00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:07,400
Speaker 1: reasons that characters and people allow themselves to be haunted

61
00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:11,320
Speaker 1: or imprisoned by their secrets, and and when they have

62
00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,880
Speaker 1: the key to let themselves out available to them pretty

63
00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,919
Speaker 1: much all the time. And so to the speech that

64
00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,400
Speaker 1: Chuck gave, it wouldn't be true to tell you that

65
00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:25,000
Speaker 1: we knew from day one we were pointed towards that speech. That's,

66
00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,320
Speaker 1: you know, one of the great things about a series

67
00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:32,120
Speaker 1: that runs for a long time, the sort of novelistic

68
00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,240
Speaker 1: sent you know, that this novelistic approach to television that

69
00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:40,719
Speaker 1: we're able to u practice if you can discover stuff

70
00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,600
Speaker 1: as you go. But we did know that at some

71
00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:47,200
Speaker 1: point we we had hoped that Chuck could let his

72
00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:49,640
Speaker 1: shoulders down, as he says in the speech about this

73
00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,240
Speaker 1: whole thing, that um, that it might come out, and

74
00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,680
Speaker 1: that if it came out, it would he would find himself,

75
00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,600
Speaker 1: if Lendy would find herself in some ways trapped by it,

76
00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:05,040
Speaker 1: Chuck would find himself in some ways freed. And um

77
00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:08,160
Speaker 1: and of course and and and uh. The episode that's

78
00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,400
Speaker 1: hearing this Sunday night and when this podcast goes up.

79
00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:14,599
Speaker 1: But but episode seven of the show, UM, Chuck tells

80
00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,080
Speaker 1: a story about where some of this came from in

81
00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:22,279
Speaker 1: a way, um, and uh, you know where where some

82
00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,360
Speaker 1: of this uh, this sense of shame. He doesn't say

83
00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,360
Speaker 1: it specifically in those words, but the two viewer will

84
00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:33,520
Speaker 1: understand that that's what he's talking about. And um, of course,

85
00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,479
Speaker 1: the reaction that we've gotten from that moment on the

86
00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:42,760
Speaker 1: show has been just so satisfying, because yes, people loved

87
00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:44,440
Speaker 1: the surprise of it and loved, as you said, like

88
00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:48,279
Speaker 1: the drama of it. But more than that, I think

89
00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:51,840
Speaker 1: they loved and related to and and and really got

90
00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:55,839
Speaker 1: a lot out of the You know what Chuck is saying,

91
00:05:55,880 --> 00:06:00,440
Speaker 1: which is, of course, don't allow these society don't as

92
00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:02,360
Speaker 1: long as your behavior doesn't harm anybody, don't allow these

93
00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:07,160
Speaker 1: societal constraints stop you from being who you need to be.

94
00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:10,360
Speaker 1: And in fact, if you own who you need to be,

95
00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:15,239
Speaker 1: you'll find that you can float through life a little

96
00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:20,000
Speaker 1: bit easier. Uh. Now, of course you know he is,

97
00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,520
Speaker 1: by making the speech hurting some people, So it's it's

98
00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:27,359
Speaker 1: not um apolly, you know. Unburdening yourself in that way

99
00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:31,679
Speaker 1: is often like though these dangers you think are there,

100
00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:33,800
Speaker 1: but you have in real life. You better pick the

101
00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,120
Speaker 1: right spots. You better prepare the right people, and you

102
00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:40,320
Speaker 1: better make sure that you're not causing more harm. Oh yeah,

103
00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,400
Speaker 1: there's this moment. I mean, it's so layered, right, because

104
00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:48,000
Speaker 1: there's also the sense that he realizes it is tactical

105
00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:51,839
Speaker 1: for him, and it is from his soul um and

106
00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:55,039
Speaker 1: and both of those come together in that moment. But

107
00:06:55,160 --> 00:07:01,040
Speaker 1: I wonder whether part of what the really extraordinary response

108
00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:05,480
Speaker 1: to that speech has been among viewers is that, I mean,

109
00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:09,520
Speaker 1: there's this moment where Chuck says to the assembled reporters

110
00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,760
Speaker 1: and political people in the in the room, I'm asking

111
00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:19,840
Speaker 1: if I may trust you with my deepest fear. Brian

112
00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:22,920
Speaker 1: also has an awesome Twitter feed you can find him

113
00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:26,360
Speaker 1: at at Brian Coppelman, in which I've noticed over the

114
00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,160
Speaker 1: years just how generous he is with other writers and

115
00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:33,840
Speaker 1: sharing his creative process. Again, to go back to your

116
00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,840
Speaker 1: Twitter feed, you are giving people permission constantly to be like,

117
00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,360
Speaker 1: wait a minute, that's a scary thought. Um, maybe that

118
00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:42,480
Speaker 1: means it's a valuable thought. Oh I don't want to

119
00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:46,080
Speaker 1: touch that. Maybe it means I should touch that. Maybe

120
00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,880
Speaker 1: that's where the kernel of truth lies. Because we devalue,

121
00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:58,040
Speaker 1: we devalue our own private insights all the time. And

122
00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:06,280
Speaker 1: as as as people, we're we're so sort of trained. Yes,

123
00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:08,640
Speaker 1: I mean, you and I are of like the free

124
00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:13,400
Speaker 1: to be giving me generation in some way, but most

125
00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:15,200
Speaker 1: and you know, there was a brief moment in the

126
00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:20,160
Speaker 1: late sixties or early seventies where individual expression was um.

127
00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:26,080
Speaker 1: Really people tried to really stoke that in kids, but generally, you're, um,

128
00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:29,800
Speaker 1: we're all trained to check with the group think before

129
00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:35,920
Speaker 1: really giving our own deepest opinion and our and saying

130
00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:41,120
Speaker 1: our own deepest dreams and ideas very often. And the

131
00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:47,040
Speaker 1: more that we can learn that if in fact we

132
00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:54,440
Speaker 1: don't worry about the reaction, we will find that we

133
00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:59,720
Speaker 1: just steal better and sleep better. And and the older

134
00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,800
Speaker 1: I at the more uncertain that becoming comfortable in your

135
00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:08,120
Speaker 1: own skin is the answer to most personal problems, not

136
00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,800
Speaker 1: going to solve world problems. But um, I mean, you know,

137
00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,280
Speaker 1: unless you extrapolate that, everyone does that. But you know,

138
00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,840
Speaker 1: the more you're not faking the funk and the more

139
00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:23,560
Speaker 1: you're just living in who you are, it changes all

140
00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:27,240
Speaker 1: of your interactions. It enables the people who are with

141
00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,840
Speaker 1: you to just get the sense that you're calm, not

142
00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:34,840
Speaker 1: that you're lazy or too relaxed, but that you're calm

143
00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,760
Speaker 1: and open and available to them because you're not putting

144
00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:39,840
Speaker 1: a bunch of stuff up in front of who you

145
00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,760
Speaker 1: really are, in between you and them. And so that's

146
00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:44,520
Speaker 1: been a lot of what I've worked on myself for

147
00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:48,520
Speaker 1: the last fifteen years or so is just being the

148
00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,040
Speaker 1: person that I am, you know, hopefully the best version

149
00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,440
Speaker 1: of who I am. I find it when I'm not

150
00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,480
Speaker 1: trying to put on anything. It enables me to be

151
00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,280
Speaker 1: the most empathetic version, the most sympathetic version, and the

152
00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:04,079
Speaker 1: most giving because um, um, just kind of like living

153
00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:08,120
Speaker 1: in the present and in where I am and I

154
00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:10,440
Speaker 1: you know, and as I've had those insights, I've tried

155
00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,040
Speaker 1: to help other people get there to the extent that

156
00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:15,679
Speaker 1: I you know, to the extent that I can. Yeah, well,

157
00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,760
Speaker 1: that is just makes so much sense to me, and

158
00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:22,440
Speaker 1: is also the way that I have been living my

159
00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:25,480
Speaker 1: life for the last I'm gonna say, twenty years or

160
00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:28,240
Speaker 1: so and more and more and more so. And as

161
00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:34,680
Speaker 1: a writer, I find that when I go there, like

162
00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,240
Speaker 1: here's just a brief example from me. Um, there's a

163
00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:41,360
Speaker 1: moment in in my not my most recent book, but

164
00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,760
Speaker 1: the book before a memoir called Hourglass. There's a moment

165
00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:49,199
Speaker 1: where there's I'm having a sort of intense, intense kind

166
00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,600
Speaker 1: of exchange with my husband. Um, there's been an ice

167
00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:54,760
Speaker 1: storm in Connecticut, and we've headed off in a direction

168
00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:57,680
Speaker 1: to another house to to be in in a in

169
00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,880
Speaker 1: a safe space. And he's an explorer, a former journalist,

170
00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:03,720
Speaker 1: so he likes to explore, and he starts explore, exploring

171
00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:05,800
Speaker 1: the roads around us, and our kid is in the

172
00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,200
Speaker 1: back seat and his in his car seat, and I

173
00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:10,200
Speaker 1: turned him like, what are you doing? What are you doing?

174
00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:12,520
Speaker 1: It's like, we're not supposed to be out on the roads.

175
00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:15,440
Speaker 1: This is not the moment to be a journalist. And

176
00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:17,920
Speaker 1: I was furious with him. And we finally got to

177
00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:19,640
Speaker 1: the house and we settled in and he went back

178
00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:21,920
Speaker 1: out into the ice storm to help, you know, to

179
00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,440
Speaker 1: help people. And I wrote this scene and at the

180
00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:30,520
Speaker 1: end of the scene something was not entirely there. He

181
00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:32,440
Speaker 1: had come back in. His cheeks were ruddy and his

182
00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:34,400
Speaker 1: eyes were bright, and he said it's like a war

183
00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:36,200
Speaker 1: zone out there, and that was the end of the scene.

184
00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:38,880
Speaker 1: And then I had this thought. It was a sentence,

185
00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,960
Speaker 1: and the sentence was I hated him, and I thought

186
00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,960
Speaker 1: I can't write that. I cannot write that. And then

187
00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:47,400
Speaker 1: I wrote it, and then I deleted it, and then

188
00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:49,199
Speaker 1: I wrote it, and then I deleted it, and then

189
00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:50,880
Speaker 1: finally I wrote it and I left it in. It

190
00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,559
Speaker 1: was probably the last edit I made in my book.

191
00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,439
Speaker 1: And I turned it in and my editor called me

192
00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:58,199
Speaker 1: a few days later after she had a chance to

193
00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,200
Speaker 1: read it, and she said, my favorite sentence in the

194
00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,200
Speaker 1: entire book, because I hated him. It was like a

195
00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,640
Speaker 1: live wire. And also, by the way, in retrospect a

196
00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:10,280
Speaker 1: few years later, I'm talking about this with you in

197
00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:12,480
Speaker 1: a podcast. The millions of people are going to hear

198
00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,400
Speaker 1: because I don't have any shame about that anymore, because

199
00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:19,079
Speaker 1: everybody hates their partners sometimes. But there was something about

200
00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:24,199
Speaker 1: that feeling in the moment of to expose, too vulnerable,

201
00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:28,280
Speaker 1: too real, too true, not okay. I mean you think

202
00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:31,520
Speaker 1: about the books that you've loved the most, that have

203
00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:35,320
Speaker 1: impacted that if you know, mattered to you the most,

204
00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,920
Speaker 1: and you it's rarely because the author was pulling punches.

205
00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,040
Speaker 1: It's rarely because the author was worried about what their

206
00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,400
Speaker 1: spouse or kids We're going to think of them. Also,

207
00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,719
Speaker 1: you know, write anything you want later, if you're really

208
00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,080
Speaker 1: sure it's gonna hurt somebody, you can always retacted, you

209
00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,160
Speaker 1: can always edited out, you can always find another way.

210
00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:55,800
Speaker 1: But often I find people stop and they're so scared

211
00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:58,280
Speaker 1: they're gonna hurt people in their lives that they don't

212
00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:00,839
Speaker 1: even pick up the pen. Right, you're special writer, You're

213
00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:04,120
Speaker 1: an accomplished writer, you're a famous writer, and still you

214
00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:08,080
Speaker 1: were worried about whether you could do it. So let

215
00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,280
Speaker 1: me ask you this, Um, to go back to Chuck's speech,

216
00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:15,920
Speaker 1: and there's also there are these great cutaways from his

217
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:20,280
Speaker 1: speech where I mean there's one in particular where he

218
00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:24,760
Speaker 1: describes he uses the word unburdening, and then we cut

219
00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:29,560
Speaker 1: to his wife's face, and UM, you know, we know

220
00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:34,320
Speaker 1: that this is not an unburdening for Wendy. What thoughts

221
00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:38,640
Speaker 1: do you have about, um, you know, those two characters

222
00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:45,040
Speaker 1: and the ways in which Chuck is released by deciding

223
00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:47,280
Speaker 1: that he is going to shine a light and reveal

224
00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:51,599
Speaker 1: what's under all of that darkness. Um, Wendy has a

225
00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:53,880
Speaker 1: very different reaction. Can you talk about that a little bit?

226
00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:56,120
Speaker 1: I'll talk about it a bit. I don't want to

227
00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:59,160
Speaker 1: overtalk it because this is a work that's still going

228
00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:01,839
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, And so I don't overtalk it.

229
00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:08,520
Speaker 1: I would just say there, Well, their situations are different, right,

230
00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:18,599
Speaker 1: because it's actually the practice itself. Although it although it,

231
00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:23,160
Speaker 1: Wendy gets stuff out of it, it's it's not primal

232
00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:24,920
Speaker 1: to Wendy in the same way it as to Chuck.

233
00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:30,760
Speaker 1: And so for Wendy, even Wendy admitting it when it

234
00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:34,560
Speaker 1: doesn't carry it in the same way. For Wendy, it's

235
00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,160
Speaker 1: a different kind of shame or embarrassment. And I don't

236
00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:38,680
Speaker 1: want to talk too much about it. I would just

237
00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:41,360
Speaker 1: say yes, of course, That's what I was saying before

238
00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:45,600
Speaker 1: about Um, when one on burdens, one ought to be

239
00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:49,760
Speaker 1: aware of the consequences too. If there are direct consequences,

240
00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,720
Speaker 1: you should lift those people and talk through it and

241
00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:54,600
Speaker 1: figure it out. And you may so off to do

242
00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,480
Speaker 1: it anyway, but then know that certain relationships are going

243
00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,880
Speaker 1: to change as a result of that. Yeah, No, I

244
00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,040
Speaker 1: mean she is she is blindsided. Um. I guess I

245
00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:08,840
Speaker 1: was asking because I'm thinking about when we love a drama,

246
00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:11,920
Speaker 1: we see ourselves in multiple characters in that drama, right,

247
00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:16,600
Speaker 1: And and I see myself in both Chuck and Wendy. Um,

248
00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:21,120
Speaker 1: there's this moment um where Wendy gets into the elevator

249
00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,640
Speaker 1: after she's watched Chuck speech on television and she's she

250
00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:28,480
Speaker 1: looks mortified and like she doesn't even know where to look.

251
00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:32,480
Speaker 1: And um, and there's what I read into that. And

252
00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:34,440
Speaker 1: again this is just you know, me as a as

253
00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:38,640
Speaker 1: a as a viewer, was that there was pride there

254
00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:42,440
Speaker 1: that had just been I mean, Wendy is so put together. Um,

255
00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,640
Speaker 1: and you know, she looks great all the time, and

256
00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:48,560
Speaker 1: she she just navigates life in this way where she

257
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:51,800
Speaker 1: helps people, but she doesn't need any help. And UM,

258
00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,120
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean I I see pieces of

259
00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,480
Speaker 1: myself and Wendy and I kind of connected to what

260
00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:01,160
Speaker 1: I viewed as her. Um, she's just sort of stripped

261
00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:03,640
Speaker 1: a little bit by this, and she doesn't want she

262
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:05,920
Speaker 1: didn't want to walk through life that way. David and

263
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:10,400
Speaker 1: I of course have to be all these characters, as

264
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,520
Speaker 1: you know, right, you can't write all these characters if

265
00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,520
Speaker 1: you can't find some piece of yourself and all these characters.

266
00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:20,200
Speaker 1: Um and so I UM. I also would say that

267
00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,760
Speaker 1: although we can work from place of intellect, I mostly

268
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,600
Speaker 1: work from place of instinct. Which is why while it's

269
00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:29,080
Speaker 1: going on, I don't like to talk about it that

270
00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:31,960
Speaker 1: much because I'm not actually working from the top down.

271
00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:35,400
Speaker 1: I'm working from the inside out while i'm writing. And

272
00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,680
Speaker 1: although I'm aware of plot, like building plot, when it

273
00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,520
Speaker 1: comes to character dialogue, those little moments. I mean, the

274
00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:47,040
Speaker 1: thing I love the most about the creative process is

275
00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:49,320
Speaker 1: the ways in which I surprise myself when I'm doing

276
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,200
Speaker 1: what I do and you know, I'm sitting on my couch,

277
00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,480
Speaker 1: I've got my headphones on, I'm blasting music, and I'm

278
00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,400
Speaker 1: in this other realm. I'm sort of you know, when

279
00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:04,040
Speaker 1: it's at it's as such as when Um, we're writing

280
00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:09,440
Speaker 1: that speech and the reactions, you know, you're in that

281
00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:14,520
Speaker 1: strange place, Manny, where you're hyper present but also sort

282
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:18,199
Speaker 1: of barely tethered to the earth. And that's where I

283
00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,600
Speaker 1: hope to be when i'm writing. Particularly, we're writting the scenes, right,

284
00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:26,240
Speaker 1: so there's there's the outlining and that sort of structural piece,

285
00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:30,520
Speaker 1: but then the writing of the scenes, um, and the

286
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,560
Speaker 1: discovery that you were talking about. For me, that has

287
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:35,840
Speaker 1: to happen from the subconscious and from the gut, and

288
00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,080
Speaker 1: it's like all the stuff that you've ever learned in

289
00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,800
Speaker 1: your life somehow is suddenly the stuff you don't even

290
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:44,919
Speaker 1: know you knew is suddenly there in your fingers. And

291
00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:48,560
Speaker 1: the more I talk it out, the less I feel

292
00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,119
Speaker 1: like I can just fly and dance. So that's why

293
00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,040
Speaker 1: I don't like to talk to stuff not that much.

294
00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:56,880
Speaker 1: I think this is really useful for listeners to hear

295
00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,960
Speaker 1: because many people who don't do this kind of word

296
00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:06,320
Speaker 1: have the misunderstanding that it's manufactured in some way that

297
00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,040
Speaker 1: they're you know, like as you say, from the top down,

298
00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,840
Speaker 1: that there is I can tell you the only times

299
00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,080
Speaker 1: in my writing life that I've written myself right into

300
00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:18,080
Speaker 1: a corner or where I've had to throw away hundreds

301
00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:20,200
Speaker 1: of pages or just put something in a drawer never

302
00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:22,359
Speaker 1: to come out again, has been when I've started with

303
00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:24,520
Speaker 1: an idea. It's when I when I when I've had

304
00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:28,080
Speaker 1: a big idea. Of course, Yeah, it's like you have

305
00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:30,000
Speaker 1: to lead like I always lead from the way I

306
00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:32,840
Speaker 1: talked about is from curiosity and obsession. Right, if I'm

307
00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,639
Speaker 1: incredibly curious to the point where I'm obsessed, then I

308
00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,440
Speaker 1: can write about something. But that's the only way that

309
00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:41,959
Speaker 1: it works. And so if it can be a world,

310
00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,200
Speaker 1: so you could say, oh, there's a world I'm fascinated by,

311
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,800
Speaker 1: and then you can have the intellectual notion, hey, I

312
00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,080
Speaker 1: think other people might be fascinated by that too, Maybe

313
00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,880
Speaker 1: this is worth my time. But then immediately what has

314
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,760
Speaker 1: to pull you into it is curiosity and obsession and fascination.

315
00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:59,760
Speaker 1: Those are the things that have to just grab hold

316
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:02,440
Speaker 1: if you would, yank you into it so that you

317
00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,439
Speaker 1: you you can't be released from it. That reminds me

318
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,920
Speaker 1: of something that I, UM also say to my students

319
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,840
Speaker 1: is that, you know, theme is just a fancy literary

320
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,600
Speaker 1: word for obsession, you know, like, show me a writer's

321
00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:18,600
Speaker 1: themes over the course of a lifetime, and I can

322
00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,880
Speaker 1: tell you what obsesses that writer. UM, And I think

323
00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:24,760
Speaker 1: to go back to from the top down. You know,

324
00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,240
Speaker 1: so many of us, um you were taught literature in

325
00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,399
Speaker 1: a certain way. Some of us were taught it in

326
00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,960
Speaker 1: a very dry way, in terms of thinking about metaphor,

327
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,240
Speaker 1: thinking about similarly, thinking about foreshadowing, and all the kinds

328
00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:42,240
Speaker 1: of things that they teach in UM less evolved English

329
00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:46,760
Speaker 1: literature classes. And the thing about metaphor is that it

330
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,840
Speaker 1: does spring from the unconscious. It never springs from the

331
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,840
Speaker 1: conscious mind. So do do you and David worked together

332
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,480
Speaker 1: in a room or do you do you work separately

333
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,960
Speaker 1: and then come to it. I'm so curious and frankly

334
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,560
Speaker 1: envious at the idea of partner a ship in that

335
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:04,040
Speaker 1: way where um, you have that sounding board. Well, when

336
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:06,760
Speaker 1: we're outlining, we're together and we're writing scenes were separate,

337
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,919
Speaker 1: So um, you know, because that intellectual part of it,

338
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,720
Speaker 1: the part where you're grinding, is much better with another

339
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:16,520
Speaker 1: person because you're able to really throw ideas and challenge

340
00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:20,159
Speaker 1: each other, and it's like you know, it's when it

341
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,800
Speaker 1: starts getting a flame. It's great because you both can

342
00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,200
Speaker 1: sort of add kindling on, add logs under the fire.

343
00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:30,320
Speaker 1: But the writing of the soil will outline us Well,

344
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:32,480
Speaker 1: we'll talk through a story and put the cards up

345
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:36,520
Speaker 1: on the board together, but then and then one of

346
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,960
Speaker 1: us will do a first pass alone at at taking

347
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,800
Speaker 1: the cards and putting it into an outline. Then the

348
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:44,480
Speaker 1: other one will rewrite that, ask questions. The other guy,

349
00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:47,360
Speaker 1: I'll ask questions and rewrite. Then we have an outline,

350
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,680
Speaker 1: and then we just split the outline up, like I'll

351
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:52,600
Speaker 1: pick these bunch of scenes. You take these bunch of

352
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,560
Speaker 1: scenes and then we write the scenes separately. We put

353
00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:58,520
Speaker 1: him in one document, and one of us goes through

354
00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:01,040
Speaker 1: first re writing the whole thing, and then the other

355
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,040
Speaker 1: goes through, and we just go back and forth, and

356
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,359
Speaker 1: then at the end we sit together and solve whatever

357
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 1: remaining sort of problems there are together. I mean, if

358
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:11,320
Speaker 1: you're gonna collaborate, because you have to love that what

359
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:13,320
Speaker 1: the way the other person works, and you have to

360
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:17,639
Speaker 1: be the kind of person who can celebrate when the

361
00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:19,800
Speaker 1: other person comes up with a great line. And from

362
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,879
Speaker 1: the very beginning, right because writers can get jealous and

363
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,720
Speaker 1: petty and miserable, but from one of the things that

364
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:27,840
Speaker 1: Dave and I have always had as we love when

365
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:29,919
Speaker 1: the other guy comes up with something great. We just

366
00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 1: that's just the way we were made, you know. Um,

367
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,040
Speaker 1: Rather than getting annoyed, we get happy. So that's a

368
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,040
Speaker 1: big part of it. Right. If if David writes a

369
00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:44,000
Speaker 1: hilarious couplet, I mean, all I want to do is celebrated,

370
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 1: and like, it just makes me, I don't know, it

371
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:50,240
Speaker 1: just makes me happy. And he's the same. When you know, basically,

372
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,199
Speaker 1: when we're split the document and we're writing, we're just

373
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 1: trying to make the other guy laugh and smile because

374
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:58,200
Speaker 1: we've been best friends with kids, you know, so we've

375
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 1: been having this dialogue back and forth. Should then Brian

376
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,600
Speaker 1: and David's working relationship points to the same exact thing

377
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,000
Speaker 1: Brian's talking about here, just in the way that Haruki

378
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:14,199
Speaker 1: Murakami's cats spring from the well of his unconscious. So

379
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,719
Speaker 1: do our obsessions drive us, whether we're artists or not,

380
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 1: and take us to places we couldn't have predicted or

381
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,880
Speaker 1: dreamt of. The trick I think is to trust the journey,

382
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:29,200
Speaker 1: to give ourselves permission to follow Emerson's gleam of light.

383
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:32,800
Speaker 1: I know that it's true in the work, and I

384
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:37,399
Speaker 1: know that I could go through the movies that David

385
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,919
Speaker 1: and I made and you could definitely find the things

386
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 1: that have obsessed us and the reasons and and really

387
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,359
Speaker 1: you're talking about the questions you've been asking yourself the

388
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:50,920
Speaker 1: whole time, and those those questions of course exist in

389
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 1: any in any artist body of work, right exactly. Well, Brian,

390
00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 1: this has been such a treat. I'm a fan and

391
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,680
Speaker 1: of both your generosity and your art. Thanks so much.

392
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 1: This has been really fun day. I'd like to thank

393
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:18,360
Speaker 1: my guest Brian Compleman, if you haven't already, check out

394
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,119
Speaker 1: Billions on Showtime, airing on Sundays at nine pm Eastern

395
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,720
Speaker 1: Standard Time, and you can find Brian on Twitter at

396
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 1: at Brian Compliment. For more podcasts for My Heart Radio,

397
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever

398
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows,