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Speaker 1: Novel.

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Speaker 2: Hi, this is The Girlfriend's Guide, where I use expert interviews,

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Speaker 2: real life experiences, and research to show you how to

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Speaker 2: fight crime and keep your girlfriends safe. Today, we're heading

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Speaker 2: back to the Pace Women's Justice Center aka Gail's House,

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Speaker 2: which we.

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Speaker 1: Visited in season one.

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Speaker 2: We're going to learn how to tackle domestic violence in

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Speaker 2: our own lives from the people who fight it every

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Speaker 2: single day. Just a warning, there are stories of domestic

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Speaker 2: abuse and mentions of suicide coming up.

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Speaker 1: If you need any support.

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Speaker 2: Or advice, please reach out to our charity partners no

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Speaker 2: More at no More dot org. Hi'm Anisinfield and from

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Speaker 2: the teams at Novel.

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Speaker 1: And iHeart Podcasts.

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Speaker 2: You're listening to The Girlfriend Friend's Guide, Episode three, dealing

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Speaker 2: with intimate partner violence.

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Speaker 3: I had met him as a sophomore in high school,

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Speaker 3: so really it was my only relationship. Everything was wonderful

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Speaker 3: at first, and then little incidents would happen and it

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Speaker 3: escalated to the point of physical violence. And I was

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Speaker 3: told that these incidents happened because I failed. I failed

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Speaker 3: as a wife, was a girlfriend, a mother, as a daughter,

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Speaker 3: I failed, and therefore it happened.

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Speaker 2: This is Debbie, that's not her real name. We actually

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Speaker 2: met when I was reporting on Gail Katz's murder at

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Speaker 2: the hands of her husband, Bob Beerenbaum. I want to

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Speaker 2: to get a better understanding of the abuse that Gail

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Speaker 2: experienced in their marriage. Like in Gail's case, the abuse

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Speaker 2: Debbie endured grew worse with time. It started out as

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Speaker 2: her husband being controlling, losing his temper, and then sharing

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Speaker 2: her with affection that's known as love bombing. Sometimes all

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Speaker 2: of those things would roll into one, like this one time,

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Speaker 2: when he became hell bent on buying Debbie an expensive

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Speaker 2: gift from overseas for her birthday. It was turning into

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Speaker 2: such a fuss to buy it that Debbie eventually suggested

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Speaker 2: he just drop it and buy something else because she

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Speaker 2: didn't actually want it anyway. This then turned into a

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Speaker 2: raging row, with Debbie just managing to get away despite

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Speaker 2: her husband's attempts to stop her. She went to stay

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Speaker 2: with a friend, but he wouldn't leave her alone.

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Speaker 3: It was an onslaught. It was text messages. It was

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Speaker 3: phone calls every two seconds, like Carl ring five times

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Speaker 3: before it goes to voicemail, hanger, call back again, hang up,

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Speaker 3: leaving messages, sending voicemail, sending voice audio through the text.

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Speaker 2: She couldn't escape her husband at home or out of

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Speaker 2: the house, and.

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Speaker 3: By that time I just had decided I can't live

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Speaker 3: like this and the only way out was for me

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Speaker 3: to commit suicide.

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Speaker 2: Debbie then checked into a mental health facility for.

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Speaker 3: A week, and within the first twenty four hours meeting

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Speaker 3: the therapist, they pointed out to me, this isn't you,

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Speaker 3: it's him. He was calling the hospital and he was

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Speaker 3: harassing the nurses. So he became banned from the hospital

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Speaker 3: and they literally told him, if you show up here,

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Speaker 3: we'll call security and you'll be arrested.

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Speaker 2: At one point, Debbie's husband decided to flip the narrative.

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Speaker 2: He told Debbie's therapists that she was abusive towards their child,

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Speaker 2: an accusation that they are legally bound to escalate into

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Speaker 2: an investigation.

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Speaker 3: The therapist heard what he said, and she said, are

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Speaker 3: you saying that she's not a good mother and that

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Speaker 3: she puts your child in danger? And he said, well,

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Speaker 3: she's afraid of her. So they separated us and they

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Speaker 3: had to call their mandated reporters. He was interviewed, my

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Speaker 3: child was interviewed, and then the investigator came to interview

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Speaker 3: me and he said to me, he happened to be

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Speaker 3: a therapist as well, and he said, I know what's

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Speaker 3: going on. I've spoken to your therapist here. I spoke

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Speaker 3: to them. I know exactly what's going on here. It's

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Speaker 3: not you. I'm actually going to not investigate you. That

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Speaker 3: therapist then pointed out to my husband at the time

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Speaker 3: and to me and said, do you hear what you're saying.

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Speaker 3: You're being abusive. You're clearly exerting control over her. You're

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Speaker 3: clearly not even allowing her to answer questions.

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Speaker 2: But despite everyone acknowledging the emotional abuse DEBU experiencing, it

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Speaker 2: didn't result in an immediate arrest or a restraining order,

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Speaker 2: or even a police investigation. She was surrounded by resources

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Speaker 2: for victims of domestic abuse, but it felt like she

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Speaker 2: could access them because the abuse was never quote unquote

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Speaker 2: bad enough. So when she left the hospital, she felt

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Speaker 2: helpless and confused and without options.

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Speaker 3: I went back. So there's some kind of national statistic,

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Speaker 3: or it might be even a global statistic that a

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Speaker 3: victim of domestic violence it takes him up to seven

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Speaker 3: attempts on ourage to actually extricate yourself from the place.

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Speaker 3: Everything that happened during this argument that I mentioned that

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Speaker 3: caused me to go to a hospital and have a breakdown,

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Speaker 3: that wasn't rising to the level of a crime. It

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Speaker 3: was all psychological, emotional mental abuse. It was literally the

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Speaker 3: perfect crime.

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Speaker 2: But for the first time in decades, Debbie had really

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Speaker 2: challenged her husband by going to hospital. She left, and

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Speaker 2: she told people what he'd been doing to her. When

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Speaker 2: she returned home, his emotional abuse and control worsened, and

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Speaker 2: soon it became physical.

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Speaker 3: The last twenty four hours, it was a physical attack

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Speaker 3: with hands around my neck, and I was told that

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Speaker 3: I needed to leave. You need to pack your bags

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Speaker 3: and leave the next day. And I agreed to it

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Speaker 3: because I said, this is great, this is my way out.

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Speaker 3: He's asking me to leave. I'm not leaving him. And

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Speaker 3: I had a sliding glass door behind me, and I

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Speaker 3: knew this wasn't going to end well. Prior to that,

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Speaker 3: he had told me he was going to kill me.

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Speaker 3: So I slid the sliding gas door and I went

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Speaker 3: out of it, and he went around the desk to

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Speaker 3: chase me. There was a gate to the backyard there.

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Speaker 3: I opened the gate and he grabbed me and I

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Speaker 3: held on to that post by two arms and wrapped

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Speaker 3: myself around it as much as I could, and he

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Speaker 3: put me in a chokehold.

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Speaker 2: In a desperate attempt to break free, Debbie bit his

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Speaker 2: arm until he let go.

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Speaker 3: And then I turned around and ran. My only got

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Speaker 3: about ten fifteen feet where he tackled me. So I

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Speaker 3: flailed and I screamed and I yelled. And I had

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Speaker 3: heard once that when you're attacked that you should just

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Speaker 3: make as much noise and be as big as you can.

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Speaker 3: So that's what I did. And he got scared, so

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Speaker 3: he left. He went inside. I didn't have a wallet,

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Speaker 3: I didn't have my phone, I didn't have my bag,

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Speaker 3: I didn't have car keys.

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Speaker 2: Looking battered and bruised, Debbie decided to make a break

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Speaker 2: for it.

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Speaker 1: She walked to the.

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Speaker 2: Supermarket and asked to borrow their phone, and that's where

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Speaker 2: she called her friend to come and get her. Finally

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Speaker 2: she was free, and now she had a crime to

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Speaker 2: report against her husband that the police couldn't ignore. Sadly,

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Speaker 2: what happened to Debbie is far from unique, So what

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Speaker 2: can we do to stop it? After the break, we'll

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Speaker 2: hear from Cindy Kanisher the executive director of the Pace

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Speaker 2: Women's Justice Center, on what people like Debbie, victims of

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Speaker 2: intimate partner violence, can do to break the cycle of abuse.

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Speaker 4: I'm Cindy Canisher, the executive director of the Pace Women's

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Speaker 4: Justice Center.

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Speaker 2: The Pace Women's Justice Center in Westchester, New York is

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Speaker 2: close to our hearts here on the Girlfriends. Girl's sister

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Speaker 2: Elaine Katz, has been heavily involved in their board and

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Speaker 2: fundraising efforts for many years now. They even renamed their

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Speaker 2: building Gail's House, and every single day they help women

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Speaker 2: just like Gail to access life saving advice and legal aid.

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Speaker 1: So Cindia is the perfect person.

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Speaker 2: To ask for advice on how to deal with domestic abuse.

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Speaker 2: And her first tip is a spade's a spade. You've

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Speaker 2: got to call it what it is.

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Speaker 4: You know, there's not one definition of what domestic balance is.

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Speaker 4: But really at the crux of when we talk about

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Speaker 4: domestic balance and when I think about it, it's about

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Speaker 4: power and control. It could be as small as you know,

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Speaker 4: having to tell your partner where you're going all the time,

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Speaker 4: and if you don't say, oh, I'm not coming home

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Speaker 4: from work, I'm going out with my friends or you

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Speaker 4: have to ask permission to do that.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 4: Maybe it's just that one little thing at the beginning,

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Speaker 4: but that's part of control, right, because there's that imbalance

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Speaker 4: of power. So there are so many different ways that

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Speaker 4: that power and control can exist, even if it's not physical, right,

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Speaker 4: very very often it's more than physical abuse going on.

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Speaker 4: And sometimes even before the physical abuse, it's the psychological

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Speaker 4: and emotional abuse. And sometimes that's all there is, but

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Speaker 4: that could be even more difficult for someone to deal with, right,

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Speaker 4: because it affects your sense of self and who you.

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Speaker 1: Are tip too. Knowledge is power.

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Speaker 4: So to the extent that you can do so safely,

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Speaker 4: find a resource in your community to reach out to.

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Speaker 4: Even if someone's not ready to leave and you're not

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Speaker 4: sure what you want to do, it's really important to

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Speaker 4: know what your options are. Right, So legally, what can

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Speaker 4: you do? So many victims of domestic violence come to

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Speaker 4: us they've remained in the relationship for a long time

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Speaker 4: because they were told that if they left, their children

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Speaker 4: would be taken away from them, or their immigration status

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Speaker 4: would be removed, or something's been held over them that

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Speaker 4: sort of involves their legal rights, and it's not true,

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Speaker 4: and so it's really important to have the knowledge and

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Speaker 4: power that you get from that so that you can

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Speaker 4: make a decision about your options. I want people to

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Speaker 4: know that there are people out there that care and

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Speaker 4: that will be there to support you and listen to

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Speaker 4: you in whatever path you want to take.

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Speaker 1: Tip's three.

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Speaker 2: If you suspect someone you know is experiencing domestic violence,

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Speaker 2: offer them consistent support.

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Speaker 4: It could be a really uncomfortable conversation for someone who's

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Speaker 4: living through abuse to be approached. It can also be

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Speaker 4: unsafe because oftentimes keeping the secret is what's keeping them safe,

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Speaker 4: and if the abuser finds out that someone else knows,

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Speaker 4: so you have to think about safety issues. And it

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Speaker 4: could just be saying you know, I'm here for you

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Speaker 4: if you ever want to talk to me about anything,

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Speaker 4: or I can help you get you numbers or whatever,

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Speaker 4: and know that they may be met with I don't

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Speaker 4: know what you're talking about, but it's important to say

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Speaker 4: that you're there because at some point they'll know, when

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Speaker 4: they're ready to reach out, that there's somebody there for them.

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Speaker 2: Just like out curiosity, does there happen to be a

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Speaker 2: kind of singular website that people can go to and

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Speaker 2: they can find the service in their host code.

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Speaker 4: There's the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence and CADV, which is,

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Speaker 4: you know, a national organization that probably has lists of

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Speaker 4: different organizations across the country. In New York, for example,

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Speaker 4: there's the New York State Coalition Against a Stick Violence,

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Speaker 4: So they have a list I know of every DV

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Speaker 4: organization in New York and where they're located and how

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Speaker 4: to contact them. So there are ways to find.

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Speaker 2: Women's Aid have a useful resource called the Survivor's Handbook

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Speaker 2: on their website.

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Speaker 1: We'll put the link in the description of this episode.

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Speaker 2: It's got loads of specific advice for each circumstance. But

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Speaker 2: a few things stood out that didn't come up in

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Speaker 2: my chat with Cindy, and this one felt important. The

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Speaker 2: number one tip is before leaving, make a safety plan,

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Speaker 2: and they had a useful checklist which I'm going to

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Speaker 2: read out. Number one, find times your partner is away

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Speaker 2: from the house to leave. Number two, pack all the

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Speaker 2: important documents for yourself and your children, things like passports,

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Speaker 2: birth certificates, medical records, that sort of thing. Three, pack

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Speaker 2: essentials whatever you can take, remember the really important stuff

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Speaker 2: like medication, and four have the phone numbers you need

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Speaker 2: to hand. That's your local domestic abuse service, police, domestic

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Speaker 2: violence unit, GP, social worker, children's school, solicitor, the really

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Speaker 2: important people who are you're in case of emergency contacts.

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Speaker 1: Five.

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Speaker 2: Teach your children how to dial emergency services nine one

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Speaker 2: one nine nine. Nine. Teach them what to do and

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Speaker 2: how to do it and in what circumstances they might

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Speaker 2: have to make that call.

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Speaker 1: Six.

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Speaker 2: If you have neighbors you can trust, tell them about

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Speaker 2: your plan and when you want to leave, ask them

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Speaker 2: to call the police if there's any signs of violence.

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Speaker 2: Seven leave an emergency bag with someone you trust. That

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Speaker 2: could be the neighbor as well, or it could be

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Speaker 2: a friend or a colleague.

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Speaker 1: Eight.

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Speaker 2: Keep money with you at all times for bus fairs, taxis,

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Speaker 2: and if you have a car, make sure that the

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Speaker 2: tanks full of petrol.

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Speaker 1: Nine.

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Speaker 2: Scout out the safest place to go. They might know

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Speaker 2: that you're at your parents, for example, so think about

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Speaker 2: various options that could be safe for you.

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Speaker 1: Ten.

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Speaker 2: Along with all of this research and planning, do consider

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Speaker 2: your digital safety. A lot of abusive part partners monitor

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Speaker 2: their spouse's digital footprint, so be careful there and once

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Speaker 2: you have left, change your passwords after you leave and

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Speaker 2: add two factor authentication to anything that supports it. But really,

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Speaker 2: the best solution to intimate partner violence is if none

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Speaker 2: of this planning were ever necessary for anyone and instead

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Speaker 2: we stopped the violence at its source, which brings me

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Speaker 2: to Cindy's fourth tip.

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Speaker 1: Educate early.

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Speaker 4: There's a lot of prevention work in schools about what

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Speaker 4: it looks like to be in a healthy relationship where

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Speaker 4: it's not a healthy relationship. You know, hopefully if they

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Speaker 4: can identify it, then they'll be able to not continue

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Speaker 4: on with the relationship at a younger age.

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Speaker 3: Ges do so much.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we're like the little engine that could you know

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Speaker 4: this this you know, group of thirty four just doing

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Speaker 4: a lot of work and helping as many people as

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Speaker 4: we can. And you know, we always keep a picture

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Speaker 4: of Gail in our office and you know, I walk

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Speaker 4: by it and I think, this is why we're here

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Speaker 4: because we don't to the extent that we can stop it.

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Speaker 4: We don't want that to ever happen again. And providing

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Speaker 4: all these services upfront and support hopefully hopefully as doing.

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Speaker 2: That, and they really do. They save the lives of

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Speaker 2: people like Gail and Debbie. After the break we'll hear

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Speaker 2: how Debbie rebuilt her life with the help of lots

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Speaker 2: of therapy, domestic violence charities, and a little laughter. After

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Speaker 2: the assault, Debbie's friend picked her up from the supermarket

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Speaker 2: that day. They reported Debbie's husband to the police and

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Speaker 2: then he was arrested.

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Speaker 3: This time around, he committed a crime. He assaulted me,

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Speaker 3: he harassed me, he tried to impede my breathing. He

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Speaker 3: completely had risen to the level of a crime, and

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Speaker 3: so the immediate court provided me with an order of

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Speaker 3: protection the criminal court, but I did have to go

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Speaker 3: to family court.

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Speaker 2: Debbie met with a domestic violence charity who provided some

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Speaker 2: free legal support.

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Speaker 3: And they helped me with an additional order of protection

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Speaker 3: from the family court, and so he was immediately removed

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Speaker 3: from the home.

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Speaker 2: But then Debbie had to start doing the hardest bit,

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Speaker 2: unraveling decades of her life and trying to figure out

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Speaker 2: who she was without her husband.

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Speaker 3: Once he was out. I had three types of counseling,

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Speaker 3: and I went religiously, so I had domestic violence counseling,

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Speaker 3: I had a peer support group with other victims of

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Speaker 3: domestic abuse, and I had a therapist. Many people end

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Speaker 3: up in an abusive relationship again because they haven't had

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Speaker 3: the opportunity to really heal.

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Speaker 2: Debbie started to want to help others like her, so

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Speaker 2: she got involved in grassroots initiatives and trained to help

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Speaker 2: other victims of domestic violence.

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Speaker 3: And I volunteered doing that for sexual assault, and then

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Speaker 3: I trained as a divorce mediator because I wanted to

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Speaker 3: understand the mechanics of the law and how all of

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Speaker 3: that works, so that I could speak not just from

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Speaker 3: my experience, but from a different level.

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Speaker 2: Debbie now works full time in the domestic violence space,

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Speaker 2: helping women just like her. But like so many victims

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Speaker 2: she encounters, she finds herself haunted by the same age

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Speaker 2: old question.

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Speaker 3: Why didn't you leave? And it's a difficult question for

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Speaker 3: anyone to answer, but people don't leave because abuse is

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Speaker 3: built on a thread and then interwoven into a relationship.

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Speaker 3: The longer the relationship, the more threads that are interwoven

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Speaker 3: in there, the stronger the fabric of abuse, and so.

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Speaker 6: It becomes a tremendous challenge to unravel it. I think

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Speaker 6: it depends on the person, the individual, It depends on

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Speaker 6: the universe. So what can we as a community as

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Speaker 6: a world do right I think just be there.

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Speaker 3: Is it really journeying to talk about it? Not any longer.

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Speaker 3: On the side, I actually do stand up comedy for fun.

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Speaker 3: Have used it as therapy now and it's actually been great.

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Speaker 3: I actually did a whole bit on I was married

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Speaker 3: to a real narcissist. Not the kind of narcissist that

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Speaker 3: is all to sexyfulm to sexy for myself to No,

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Speaker 3: not that kind of way, like when Hurricane Sandy was

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Speaker 3: going to hit our area. Damn, that's all I need

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Speaker 3: a hurricane, Or when I had cancer. I don't know

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Speaker 3: how I'm going to survive this. I thought chema was toxic,

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Speaker 3: tri suffocating, narcissism. It's your truth.

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Speaker 5: You can say whatever you want about it and laughter

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Speaker 5: there's healing, and if you can feel that pain, then

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Speaker 5: you can find something to laugh about because you're now

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Speaker 5: on that other side.

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Speaker 3: It's not as dark as you know. It got worse

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Speaker 3: and I stayed there. I can't laugh about it, but

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Speaker 3: you can talk about your own experience and you feel

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Speaker 3: the horrible mess and pain. You're out of it now

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Speaker 3: you can look back at it. It's definitely a way

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Speaker 3: of healing, and it also makes it a lot easier

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Speaker 3: to discuss the ugly and the fact that I'm able

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Speaker 3: to just say it, not scripted, just to have a

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Speaker 3: conversation and talk about it. It takes these barriers away.

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Speaker 2: I love that Debbie has figured out how to laugh

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Speaker 2: about some of those dark moments. Standing on stage and

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Speaker 2: poking fun at her abuser is not only very brave,

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Speaker 2: but it's also an amazing way to take back control

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Speaker 2: of her story. It's a philosophy that's at the heart

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Speaker 2: of the girlfriends. I really do believe that women use

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Speaker 2: laughter and gossip to take control of their narratives and

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Speaker 2: support and protect each other. It's a way of saying,

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Speaker 2: I'm here, nothing's going to shock me. In fact, I'll

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Speaker 2: find a way to make you smile in the face

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Speaker 2: of it, even if you don't know how to write now.

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Speaker 2: As Cindy said, sometimes the best thing you can do

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Speaker 2: for a friend going through a hard thing is to simply,

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Speaker 2: through actions and words, remind them that you'll always be

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Speaker 2: there if they need you. But every case is different,

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Speaker 2: So if you suspect someone you love is experiencing domestic abuse,

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Speaker 2: do reach out to an expert for advice. There'll be

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Speaker 2: local resources in your area or please feel free to

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Speaker 2: contact our charity partner no More.

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Speaker 1: They offer global support.

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Speaker 2: To anyone who is worried about domestic abuse or sexual

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Speaker 2: violence in their own or loved one's lives. Will pop

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Speaker 2: a link in the description Until next time, As always,

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Speaker 2: hold your Girlfriend's Tight to. The Girlfriend's Guide is produced

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Speaker 2: by Novel for iHeartRadio. For more from Novel, visit novel

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Speaker 2: dot Audio. This episode is produced and hosted by me

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Speaker 2: Anna Sinfield. Our assistant producer is Madeline Parr and we've

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Speaker 2: had some fantastic additional production by Lee Meyer, the Ona

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Speaker 2: Hamid and Zaianna Yusuf. Max O'Brien is our executive producer.

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Speaker 2: Production management from Shrie Houston and Charlotte Wolfe. Sound design,

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Speaker 2: mixing and scoring by Daniel Kempson and Nicholas Alexander. Music

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Speaker 2: supervision by me Anna Sinfield and Nicholas Alexander. Original music

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Speaker 2: composed and performed by Louisa Gerstein and produced by Louisa

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Speaker 2: Gerstein and you guessed It Nicholas Alexander. The series artwork

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Speaker 2: was designed by Christina Limcol. Story development by me Anna Sinfield.

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Speaker 2: Willard Foxton is creative director and our executive producers at

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Speaker 2: iHeart are Katrina Norvell and Nicki Etoor. Special thanks to

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Speaker 2: Alie Cantor, Carrie Lieberman, and Will Pearson at iHeart Podcasts,

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Speaker 2: as well as Carl Frankel and the whole team at

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Speaker 2: w m E.

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Speaker 3: I God, I Go,