WEBVTT - Hanging On By a Thread 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.640 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:19.200 Meet your Girl Daniel Moody recording from the Home Bunker. Folks. 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:24.599 Let's just start off today with my thoughts which I 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:32.800 shared yesterday on Tommy Tuberville, the senator who apparently needed 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:37.080 to be told the definition of white nationalism so that 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:42.120 he could walk back his white nationalist thoughts about white 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:46.919 nationalists being able to join the military and referring to 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:52.320 them as Americans. Tommy Tuberville is sixty eight fucking years old, 0:00:53.040 --> 0:00:56.880 so I would really love it if mainstream media would 0:00:56.960 --> 0:01:00.800 stop giving these motherfuckers the benefit of the out as 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:04.360 if Tommy Tuberville is in elementary school and is just 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:08.200 learning these topics for the first fucking time. He is not. 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:10.840 And it is the same way that I had to 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:16.200 listen during the entirety of Trump's disastrous administration from people 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:19.559 like Susan Collins and others that say that Donald Trump 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:24.000 will quote grow into the position, are we fucking dumb? 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:29.000 Like it is this idea of perpetual adolescence that white 0:01:29.040 --> 0:01:33.520 men are given in this country. Oh you're sixty something, 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:36.680 you're seventy something, you're eighty something. Oh they don't know, 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:42.400 they'll learn. Give me a fucking break. It is intellectually 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:48.520 dishonest at best and gaslighting at fucking worse. By chasing 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:53.080 people down like Tommy Tuberville and asking them to define 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:57.320 statements that were very fucking clear, run with what it 0:01:57.400 --> 0:02:01.440 is that they said, instead of trying to get them 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:04.600 to backtrack on what it is that you know that 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:10.360 they believe, and then to boot Tommy Tuoperville's backtracking on 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:15.640 his white nationalist or American statement was well, I was 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:19.440 a football coach, so I dealt with more minorities than 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:23.520 a lot of people. You dealt with like slave masters 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:27.160 dealt with enslaved Africans. Get the fuck out of here. 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:33.960 It is just so wild to me the way that 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:39.840 journalists just refuse to take these people at their word 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:45.800 and print the fucking truth. Tommy Tuberville is a racist, 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:49.600 and he's a fucking terrorist right now in the Senate 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:54.239 as he holds up confirmations for the military because he 0:02:54.280 --> 0:02:57.480 doesn't want women in the military to be able to 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:03.800 have access to abortions. I am so tired of them 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:08.000 talking about activism when this is the kind of terrorism 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:11.840 that they are doing. What does it say folks about 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:16.040 our government. When you can have one fucking senator hold 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:25.040 up an entire fucking agency, it means it's broken. And 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:27.680 those are the conversations that we should be having on 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:32.280 a regular basis. And instead of oh, Tommy Tuberville backtracks 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:35.720 on his fucking white nationalist beliefs, it should be Tommy 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:39.640 Tuberville believes that white nationalists are Americans that should have 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:46.360 the ability to join the military. It is bullshit. The 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:49.960 Republican Party is the white nationalist party. If you are 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:55.000 a Republican you support white nationalism, plain and simple. You 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:59.880 attack LGBTQ people, you attack black people, you attack indigenous people, 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:03.880 you attack women, you attack people of color, you attack Muslims. 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:07.840 That is the protocol of the Republican Party. And to 0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:13.960 say or print anything to the contrary is a fucking lie. 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:21.880 It is not neutrality. I'm just so tired of mainstream media. 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:27.080 I'm so tired of this party. I'm so tired of 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:31.080 them making it so easy to run against them. And yes, 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:34.560 Democrats are trying to figure out what their fucking messaging is. 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:40.240 If you thought, folks that the twenty twenty election was 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:43.800 the most consequential election of our time, I don't even 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:47.160 know what to refer to twenty twenty four as, but 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:51.440 it is literally the battle between good and evil, right 0:04:51.480 --> 0:04:58.720 and wrong, authoritarianism and democracy. This country is not just backsliding. 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:02.359 We are hanging on by a fucking thread. And for 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:04.600 folks that say, oh, well, Biden's age, I don't give 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:07.080 a fuck of Biden as one hundred and fifty. If 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:09.200 that man still has breath in his body and that 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:11.560 is who the fucking nominee is, then that is who 0:05:11.560 --> 0:05:15.360 we're voting for, plain and fucking simple. Because the alternative, 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:18.719 whether it's Donald Trump or DeSantis or fucking Haley or 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:22.919 Pence or any other of those Republican fucking clowns, the 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:27.080 alternative is fascism and white nationalism. That is it. 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:29.800 So if you. 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:34.520 Want that, don't vote right our vote for one of 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:38.080 these fucking third party candidates that are also a fucking 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:46.559 clown show. Today, I am aggravated. The entire story around 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:51.400 Tuberville just has me on one. Coming up next, dear friends, 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:55.920 my conversation with our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel, 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:59.520 is back after a very long break from the show, 0:05:59.560 --> 0:06:06.599 so I'm excited to get into conversation with him. Folks. 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:09.920 I am so excited to welcome back after a very 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:15.520 long break, our friend UH in house doctor doctor Jonathan Methel. 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:21.039 Back to WOKF Jonathan, it has been a long time 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:23.640 since we've chatted. I would love to say that things 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:26.520 in America have gotten surprisingly better since you've been gone. 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:31.280 They haven't. But I want to start off with the 0:06:31.320 --> 0:06:37.040 fact that you know, over the holiday, the fourth of 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:40.039 July holiday, that a lot of people celebrated. You know, 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:43.280 I just chose to drink by a pool because it's 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:46.200 a day off. But I'm not celebrating America. You know, 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:50.640 there were countless shootings, right, some of which elevated to 0:06:51.000 --> 0:06:56.919 headline news, others did not. And I and I know 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:00.200 that you've been traveling abroad a bit and and I 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:04.160 wanted to get you know, just your read out on one, 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:09.120 Why is it just that everyone is off, so everyone 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:13.440 goes and grabs their guns over holidays? Like why the 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:18.280 escalation in shooting happens during that time? Uh is number one? 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:21.760 And then two while you were traveling abroad, I know, 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:24.760 speaking a lot about your your upcoming book and just 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:28.800 your work around you know, gun violence, Like what is 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:32.880 the perspective, what are you being what is being reflected 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:37.320 back at you from the from people abroad in terms 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:40.760 of how they are seeing America right now. 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:46.720 Well, hey, everybody, first, it's great to be back sitting 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:49.440 by a pool. Signs really good right now. Maybe we 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:51.920 should do a pool side chat one of these days. Yeah, 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:55.880 that would be awesome. I I will say, so, I 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:59.280 was I was going. I was in not so far 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:04.000 the UK. I was in London and through Durham in 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:07.400 the north of the UK, and then through Scotland and Edinburgh. 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:13.360 And I will say definitely, to be fair, it's just 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:15.960 a weird moment for the world, Like the whole world 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:18.520 isn't working right now. People are still kind of reeling 0:08:18.560 --> 0:08:22.560 with the rise of fascism and a war of aggression 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:26.160 like we haven't seen in really a very very long time, 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:30.480 and climate instability everywhere, and so the whole, the whole 0:08:30.520 --> 0:08:33.000 world is reeling. You know. I go to the Middle 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:37.080 East a lot, and they're up ended. So but I 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:40.920 will say that there's something so particular about guns in 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:44.120 America that you even if the whole world's on fire, 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:47.880 they're still going to like stop for a minute and say, 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:50.280 and what the hell is wrong with what the hell's 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:54.040 wrong with America, and and and and definitely I got 0:08:54.080 --> 0:09:00.400 that the most around around the shootings on the fourth July, 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:03.080 I've actually been doing a fair bit of British media. 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:06.120 I did a piece in The Guardian and I have 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:08.520 a piece coming out in The Independent about this because 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:11.960 I just got contacted because everybody was like, hey, look, 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:14.480 this is your national holiday. What the hell is going 0:09:14.559 --> 0:09:17.440 on here? And so it was, on one hand, pretty 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:20.800 remarkable was happening around what was a long Fourth of 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:24.000 July weekend. Remember we had everybody. Everybody kind of took 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:27.920 off like six weeks before and after for Fourth of July. 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:32.800 But but I will say that it was it was 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:38.680 it was hot, it was you know, muggy, and it 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:43.200 was the opening line for my Independent piece is Americans 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:46.040 celebrated the Fourth of July house holiday in the most 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:49.559 American way possible by ducking for cover because. 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:51.400 Damn Jonathan Wow. 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:56.199 Okay, because that's kind of become our national autobiography. That 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:59.200 in a way that that's kind of what we saw. 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:03.880 So there were I think eighteen mass shootings on record 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:07.320 on the Fourth of July weekend. Twenty two people died 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:10.199 at least, but I think that's an undercount. One hundred 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:13.720 people injured, But I think that's an undercount, and that's 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:15.840 just the high profile mass shooting. That's not all the 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:18.280 other shootings that we probably had on that weekend too, 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:21.719 about you know, suicide and partner violence and all the 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:24.679 other stuff and stuff. So what I said is, in 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:29.040 a way, the fourth of July shooting is a reflection 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:32.880 of America right now, that this is our national autobiography, 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:36.120 this is the world we live in. And there are 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:39.280 I think are particular reasons. Right in the summer, people 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:43.120 are out, they're socializing together, they are getting conflict. It's muggy, 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:49.560 they're irritable. People are also I mean, they just have 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:54.480 more time to shoot each other around holiday weekends. And 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:59.599 also I think particularly around fourth of July, there's symbolism 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:03.240 about out. You know, there are fireworks and things exploding 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:06.160 and grudges and remember lest year we had a shooting 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:09.760 at a parade in Illinois, and so there are particular 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:12.440 things about Fourth of July. But I would also say 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:15.360 that the numbers on fourth of July weren't that different 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:19.719 from the numbers for the June or for you know, 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:22.280 the month before that, And so in a way just 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:26.800 it just becomes kind of what we've got. And part 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:29.439 of the story is about a reflection of American trauma, 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:33.960 and another story is about our complete inability, our complete 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:40.240 inability to work together to address something that is a 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:42.040 threat to all of us. 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:47.800 You know, when you say it is our national autobiography, 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:52.000 dock and cover, and I think about you know, one, 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:54.679 I did not realize that it was eighteen mass shootings, 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:58.719 and you're saying that that's an undercount. You bring up 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:03.640 the shooting that happened last year where we saw baby 0:12:03.679 --> 0:12:08.600 strollers and sandals and everything abandoned after the shooting that 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:11.560 happened during the Fourth of July parade. And what was 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:16.480 funny is that I had gone with friends and their kids. 0:12:16.559 --> 0:12:20.560 They wanted to take their kids down to you know, 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:23.439 a little like kid parade that was happening in their town, 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:29.439 and I was terrified, you know, I was terrified to go. 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:31.520 And I just I want to lift up what you 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:34.920 just said, like with regard to the collective trauma, right 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:39.440 like parades, outdoor concerts, movie, you know, outdoor movies like 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:43.079 these are things that people look forward to and socialize 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:47.040 around during the summer, and these are the places that 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:51.080 are most terrorized during the summer, and so can you 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:55.400 just speak to like this collective trauma and the fact 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:58.600 that we continue to move through it, right, And also 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:02.800 like how other people like you said that you're doing 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:06.000 a lot of writing, you know, with with you know, 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:10.000 with regard to the British press, how they are looking 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:12.600 at us, like does the rest of the world. Just 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:16.320 like because I have not traveled abroad probably in a year, 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:19.000 and one of the things I like to do is 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:21.120 just you know, I like to talk to the drivers. 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:23.920 I like to talk to the people that are you know, 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:27.679 working and and get a sense of like what their 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:30.880 views are on you know, on America as well as 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:32.760 you know, on the country that I happen to be in, 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:37.040 because I think that it's very raw. But like, talk 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:40.680 to us about this collective trauma and how we kind 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:42.320 of just pick up and move through it. 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:46.319 Well, we habituated. That's kind of the term. I mean, 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:48.880 if you think about the first mass shootings that we 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:52.200 heard about when we kind of entered the mass shooting era, 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:57.440 Columbine or Sandy Hook, Parkland, those were real moments of 0:13:57.720 --> 0:14:03.080 national reckoning, and now it's just they happened so often. 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:06.520 And it's not just that they happen so often, it's 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:10.640 that we've lost faith in our political system. And so 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:14.520 it used to be we would a mass shooting would happen. 0:14:14.559 --> 0:14:18.760 I remember around Sandy Hook I was on Fox News 0:14:18.800 --> 0:14:20.480 all the time, and they were like, oh my god, 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:25.280 what can we do to fix this? And people were 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:27.320 marching down the street. Member there were all those huge 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:31.080 marches in midtown here in New York. And so I 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:36.320 think part of the story here is just a threat 0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:41.240 to our existence that is met with a complete lack 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:44.800 of trust in our political system to fix it or 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:48.720 address it, or even meaningfully engage it. And I think 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:53.400 that's really part of the story here is you know, 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:58.000 partially in the piece if it ever gets published, you 0:14:58.000 --> 0:14:59.600 never know what kind of edits they're going to make. 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:03.880 But I say the framework of Fourth of July is 0:15:03.920 --> 0:15:07.800 like a celebration of you know, life, liberty, the pursuit 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:11.080 of happiness, and what kind of liberty you have. I 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:15.520 interview all these parents who who say that they're avoiding 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:19.400 block parties and not letting their kids go to firecrackers 0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:21.440 because you don't know what is a firecracker and what 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:24.480 is a gun? A gunshot, and so in a way, 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:28.240 the impingement on our liberty of thinking you might or 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:31.560 somebody you love might be the next statistic of a 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:35.320 mass casualty event is really a real effect on our 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:39.400 own liberty. Right. We're affecting our freedom, our ability to move. 0:15:39.920 --> 0:15:43.160 And I don't think a lot of people with respect 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:46.560 are really soothed by the idea of we'll just take 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:48.560 a gun and you can fire back. It just doesn't 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:51.400 work that way. That you know, it's very clearly a 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:55.240 ridiculous response, and so in a way, it's just it 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:58.680 impacts daily life and daily death and death in our 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:00.960 country in a real way. But I guess the other part, 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:03.880 having done this research my book in January talks about 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:08.520 this more is I've interviewed a lot of gun owners 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:12.200 who want reform. Also, even in the piece, I interview 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:15.520 some gun owners who say, look, I'm a gun owner, 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:19.080 but what we have now is insane. And so it's 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:22.200 not like it's like a Democrat versus Republican issue totally. 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:26.360 I mean, it is because of who gets elected, but 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:30.120 it's also there are these things that just seem really 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:34.480 basic common sense across the rest of the world. Background checks, 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:38.840 registering insurance liability, all the things you would do for 0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:42.200 a car, and you can't even do those really basic things. 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:46.040 And in fact, our Supreme Court right now is poised 0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:49.800 to make things considerably worse with a case they're going 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:51.360 to hear next year. I can't even believe they're going 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:56.480 to hear this about whether someone convicted of domestic Yes, 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:02.560 And so in a way, it's just really, this is 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:05.359 really what minority rule means. It's not just about like 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:07.919 imposing the will of five percent of the people and 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:12.119 everybody else. It's also not letting people work together to 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:16.359 solve problems. When left in a room together, they could 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:18.720 find I think some reasonable compromise positions. 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:21.800 I mean the fact, you know, to your point, the 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:25.600 fact that the Supreme Court would even hear that kind 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:29.480 of case, would even say, oh, yeah, this is a 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:32.760 both sides issue. Let's let's let's hear this out. That 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:36.920 somebody that has been convicted of domestic violence should own 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:40.360 a weapon right, and that goes against you know, their right. 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:44.359 This is the same fucking court you know that you 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:49.880 have had declare that those that have served time shouldn't 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:51.919 be able to get their right to vote back. But 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:55.080 if you beat somebody, you can get your gun back. 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:59.480 Yeah, and part part of that story. I've actually done 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:01.600 it number of interviews about this because I'm like, what 0:18:01.720 --> 0:18:07.120 the hell, and not surprisingly people support it on the right. 0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:12.480 I'm not everybody, but the people who reflectively support gun rights, 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:14.879 and I'm like, how can you possibly support this? And 0:18:14.920 --> 0:18:18.320 what they said is it's just the principle that the 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:19.480 principle is government. 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:23.680 There's no fucking principle. Like Jonathan, I can't like, there's. 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:28.439 Good the thing they said that the government should have 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:31.840 no role in regulating weapons. That's that's what they're thinking. 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:34.200 And because I tell you to be honest, when I 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:36.800 first heard the case, I thought, great, finally we're going 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:39.720 to get some limitations on this friggin madness. But when 0:18:39.760 --> 0:18:42.800 I did these interviews, I'm like, oh crap, they're actually 0:18:42.800 --> 0:18:44.840 doing this to prove the opposite point, which is that 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:48.879 there's no limitation whatsoever. And I think Kathy Hoschel had 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:50.639 a pop ed in the New York Times about this 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:52.800 or has one coming up, and other people are writing 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:56.560 about it. But it's it's just a weird. It's a 0:18:56.560 --> 0:18:57.920 weird world we live in right now. 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:02.359 I mean, it's weird, Jonathan. But it's like everywhere that 0:19:02.400 --> 0:19:04.800 you look, So I want to I want to go 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:07.400 to your to your time. You know in the UK, 0:19:08.080 --> 0:19:11.879 everywhere that you look, there is not a country that 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:17.639 isn't dealing with either the rise of fascism, minority rule, 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:24.040 just the disenfranchisement of you know, of voters, and also 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:28.960 just the withering of democracy. So talk to us about 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:33.760 like your time in the UK and what you heard, 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:35.440 you know while you were there. 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:37.520 I'm going to get in trouble. I was worried you 0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:41.879 might ask me that, because I will say for sure. 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:44.679 I mean there are governments falling apart, right and left. 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:47.879 And before that, I as you know, I was in Israel, 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:50.840 and you know, say what you will about Israeli politics. 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:54.320 There are there is a wide range of political views 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:57.200 there and the fact that like the judiciary has been 0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:00.439 taken over by the same right wing machine is put it. 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:03.520 People are in shock. I have a lot of friends 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:06.800 here who it's like America is going down the tubes, 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:09.440 and so we're moving to Portugal. A lot of people 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:10.520 are moving to Portugal. 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:11.920 It's on my list. 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:15.000 And Portugal had a fascist party, a right wing party 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:17.000 that had never gotten like more than one percent of 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:19.320 the vote, and now they're pulling at like thirty percent. 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:21.520 So the whole world is like, oh, you got a 0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:26.400 strong man. Well I need a strong man too. And 0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:30.040 before I answer your actual question, I will say we 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:32.320 have a you know, this twenty twenty four election. We 0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:34.400 thought the twenty twenty election was the most important election 0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:36.879 of our lifetime. The twenty twenty four election really is 0:20:37.160 --> 0:20:39.720 the most important election of our lifetimes because America can 0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:43.399 reset the clock on this stuff, or we can go 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:45.480 down that same path. And I just feel like if 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:49.320 the American election goes to the far right, that is, 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:52.800 that's just going to tip everything else over in a way, 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:55.280 and also of course enable Putin and all these guys. 0:20:55.320 --> 0:20:59.480 So anyway, but your question was about the UK, and 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:02.880 I will say there. I mean, if you just walk 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:04.600 down the street in the UK, and if you want 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:06.680 an example of like what the hell's going on in America, 0:21:06.720 --> 0:21:09.480 you'll find it anywhere. Everybody's like what the hell's going 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:12.760 on in America? But I will say that there were 0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:17.280 there was a lot of like I mean across Europe, 0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:19.520 how do we play pay for social programs? How do 0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:21.679 we pay for healthcare? How do we pay for retirement? 0:21:22.359 --> 0:21:26.159 How come conservatives are rising back up in our own governments? 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:30.480 And so I just think there's a model of liberalism 0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:33.000 that is, and I'd be curious your sense about this, 0:21:33.480 --> 0:21:36.399 there's a model of liberalism that just not responding to 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:39.080 the to the rights of fascism. In other words, like 0:21:39.080 --> 0:21:43.040 I think the europe model that I've seen is like like, 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:45.280 look at France, you know, trying to raise like France 0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:48.879 is going broke basically because of immigration and raising the 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:52.000 raising the retirement age and all these kind of things. 0:21:52.480 --> 0:21:55.680 And the model of kind of liberal socialism can't pay 0:21:55.800 --> 0:21:58.920 for I can't pay for what they're doing in a way. 0:21:58.960 --> 0:22:02.600 And so I just feel like liberalism is not an 0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:06.200 answer to fascism right now, or we need a better answer. 0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:07.919 I don't know. That's my sense of Europe. That's a 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:09.720 very broad answer. I realized. 0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:16.000 We've actually never seen liberalism in action in any real way. 0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:21.000 What we get is centrists at best, and we and 0:22:21.040 --> 0:22:24.879 we call it liberalism. We've actually never I don't know, 0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:29.360 maybe point tell me, point to a progressive body and 0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:31.880 tell me that like, oh, this is this is what 0:22:32.080 --> 0:22:33.960 the rest of the world has tried to model after 0:22:34.359 --> 0:22:38.040 I've never seen it, right, Like we we we referred 0:22:38.080 --> 0:22:42.040 to said Obama was liberal, Obama was not liberal, Obama 0:22:42.160 --> 0:22:44.600 was a centrist. Right, we say Bill Clinton was a 0:22:44.960 --> 0:22:48.440 Bill Clinton was a centrist. Biden is a centrist. Right, 0:22:48.560 --> 0:22:52.600 So I'm not quite sure when we talk about liberalism, 0:22:52.720 --> 0:22:58.440 we've never seen that in action, not in this country. 0:22:58.960 --> 0:23:01.160 What would liberalism look like right now? I mean, again, 0:23:01.160 --> 0:23:03.879 I'm thinking a lot about Europe, and I'm thinking about 0:23:04.720 --> 0:23:06.639 what's the I guess it's really I think it's a 0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:09.679 fair question. What's the model of liberalism that we're advocating 0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:15.040 for in the face of I mean, look, what, like 0:23:15.400 --> 0:23:19.280 is RFK Junior a liberal? Like he's he's fucking crazy, 0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:20.520 He's fucking crazy. 0:23:20.320 --> 0:23:23.119 Like he's absolutely that's I mean to say that that 0:23:23.240 --> 0:23:26.600 man who doesn't believe in vaccines, who like is the 0:23:26.600 --> 0:23:30.439 biggest proponent of conspiracy theories, and all he does is 0:23:30.440 --> 0:23:32.800 have the last name Kennedy is a liberal. He's not 0:23:32.840 --> 0:23:34.480 even a little I don't know what you would call 0:23:34.520 --> 0:23:37.480 his political affiliation besides nuts, Yeah. 0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:40.360 I mean, And part of that story is extreme positions 0:23:40.359 --> 0:23:43.159 have become mainstream. Right Kenned. We've known about Kennedy and 0:23:43.200 --> 0:23:45.200 the health community for years and everybody's like, oh, that 0:23:45.240 --> 0:23:47.879 guy's a nut. But but I will just say, it 0:23:47.960 --> 0:23:53.320 just feels like a very unstable moment. But but I 0:23:53.320 --> 0:23:55.120 don't know, this is I know we're going off topic. 0:23:55.160 --> 0:23:57.080 We can talk about this some other time, but like, 0:23:57.119 --> 0:23:59.719 what's a liberal position, for example, on the war on Ukraine? 0:23:59.800 --> 0:24:03.440 Like do we let putin win? Do we keep fighting 0:24:03.480 --> 0:24:07.200 by funding the military? It's like, it's not it's not clear, right, 0:24:08.600 --> 0:24:10.760 There are all these there are all these issues where 0:24:11.280 --> 0:24:13.159 I just think, I just think what it means to 0:24:13.160 --> 0:24:16.240 be a liberal is is it's much easier to be 0:24:16.240 --> 0:24:18.960 a fascism right now because it gives you like easy answers, 0:24:19.000 --> 0:24:22.000 even if they're fake, which is like trust and authoritarians. 0:24:22.520 --> 0:24:24.120 But it's I don't know, I'm not doing a very 0:24:24.200 --> 0:24:28.760 job of articulating this, but it does feel like what 0:24:28.800 --> 0:24:30.879 does it mean to be a liberal right now? Is 0:24:30.920 --> 0:24:33.520 something that I just felt a lot of resonance between 0:24:33.600 --> 0:24:35.920 like things I've been thinking and what I was talking 0:24:35.920 --> 0:24:37.360 about with people in the UK. 0:24:38.280 --> 0:24:40.840 I mean, for me, what does it mean to be 0:24:41.000 --> 0:24:44.280 a liberal at this moment? It means to be looking 0:24:44.359 --> 0:24:49.000 at the the multiple crises that we're dealing with and 0:24:49.119 --> 0:24:51.760 at like, what would it mean to be a liberal 0:24:51.800 --> 0:24:54.320