WEBVTT - Miles Copeland 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:12.119 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob left Sech Podcast. 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:17.200 My guest today is music in Legend Miles Copeland, you know, 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:23.040 was a manager, as a label owner, the consummate Outsidered insider. Miles, 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:25.439 glad to have you here. Nice to be with you, 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:28.880 Bob asth we nitor you want. Okay, what's the story? 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:32.280 Was your father really in the CIA? My father was, well, 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:35.479 some people like to say, you know, for because it 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:38.120 sounds exotic perhaps to say he was a spy, but 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:39.959 an actual fact, he was what we would call an 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:43.519 operative in all the countries where he was working, you know, 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:48.040 whether it be Dabascus, Syria, or Lebanon or Egypt. The 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:50.519 heads of the country he knew that he was operating 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:52.880 from the CIA, which was really what they wanted because 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:54.480 they wanted a c I a guy that they could 0:00:54.480 --> 0:00:58.200 talk to. So and an actual fact, yes, he was CIA, 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:01.280 but he was an operative, you know, So I can't 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:04.520 really say that he was a spy, although it does 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:07.600 sound rather exotic to say that he was. And when 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:10.399 did you discover that this was his line of work? Well, 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:13.040 I was probably I mean when when we were in Egypt, 0:01:13.080 --> 0:01:15.679 I was only ten years old and he after we 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:18.720 left Egypt, he resigned from the CIA, and I knew 0:01:18.800 --> 0:01:20.880 a few years after that that he was CIA, but 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:23.840 I didn't really think much about it. Um and I 0:01:23.959 --> 0:01:27.520 never had any feeling that there was something wrong with 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:34.119 with influencing governments, let's say, because Lord knows some governments 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:37.319 do need influencing. Well, there's a rumor that your father 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:42.280 was involved in overthrowing the government in Syria. Was that true? Well, 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:45.800 that actually was true, but it was not something that 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:49.560 Uh had been planned in advance. I mean, as my 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:51.560 father used to tell the story, he said, you know, 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:56.600 I was having dinner with the General Zaim and the 0:01:56.720 --> 0:02:01.640 Colonel Uh from the military attache American American Embassy, and 0:02:01.920 --> 0:02:04.600 we were talking and he kind of brought up, you know, 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:07.400 almost like philosophically, well what would it take to overthrow 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:09.840 a government? And I sort of thought about it, and 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:11.720 I thought, well, you know, I guess you'd want to 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:15.639 take the radio station, and then you'd want to uh. 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:17.240 Well no, wait a minute, I think first you need 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:19.760 a reason for overthrowing the government, but then you take 0:02:19.800 --> 0:02:23.920 the So anyway, they were talking philosophically, so they didn't 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:26.560 think much about it. But apparently the general had stopped 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:29.520 drinking and said finally says he could do this. We 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:32.040 could do this. The Americans help me, we can do this. 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:34.560 And he thought they all, you know, he in the 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:37.320 military had a she thought, my god, the guy's the 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:39.640 guy serious here? You know. Well, you know what, let 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:41.840 him sleep it off. He'll forget about it the next day. Well, 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:44.200 the next day he didn't forget about it, and uh, 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:46.560 he was Okay, the American is gonna help me, all right, 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:51.120 you know. And so he sends a telegram to the 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:53.640 CEI office back in Washington and saying, you know what 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:56.280 do we do? This guy really wants to overthrow the government? 0:02:56.360 --> 0:02:59.200 You know, what's our position? And gets a cable back saying, 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:01.720 you know, don't mess it. You know, we don't need 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:05.280 this stuff, and uh, we don't mess around in foreign affairs. 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:09.200 And he tells the general and the general says, but 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:12.320 I'm going to do this. You must help me. Cable 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:14.440 goes back and forth and back and forth, and finally 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:17.639 the general says, look, if you don't help me, I 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:22.440 go too the Russians. So Cable goes back to Washington. Look, 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:25.359 this guy is serious. He's gonna do this either we're 0:03:25.400 --> 0:03:27.000 with him or we're not with him, and if we 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:28.760 don't go with him, he's gonna go with the Russians. 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:31.480 So what do we want to do. Cable comes back saying, well, 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:34.000 you know, you're on the spot. Do what you gotta do. 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:37.640 So he stayed an incident which was at our house, 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:41.200 you know. He one night, Uh, my father says, okay, 0:03:41.240 --> 0:03:43.520 you and your mother and the two kids. You know, 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:45.840 you're you're gonna leave the house and you're gonna go 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:48.200 away for the weekend, you know what, but we want 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:50.760 to go, just go, you know. So how we went 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:53.800 and uh, we come back a couple of days later, 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:56.840 and the house is full of bullet holes, and the 0:03:56.920 --> 0:03:59.760 allegation had a bomb in the garden, you know, which 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:02.160 would planted to make sure nobody would be hurt, of course, 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:06.120 but this was the incident to create the the atmosphere 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:07.840 that the government had to come in, and you know, 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:10.160 this general had to come in and save the country 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:13.440 from these rebels, you know, which were of course completely 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:16.480 made up. So he ended and of course the general 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:19.080 overtook the country, and of course my father then could 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:22.800 claim as to being the first American operative to overthrow 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:25.159 our government. By covert means. But it was not a 0:04:25.240 --> 0:04:28.680 planned thing where the CIA and back in Washington was plotting, 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:31.440 you know, they just got stuck and decided to better 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:32.720 go on with it because the guy was going to 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:35.719 do it anyway. So how many countries did you live 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:40.200 in growing up? I lived in Syria during that period, 0:04:40.520 --> 0:04:44.480 and then uh in Egypt when Gamala Donasa became the 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:48.480 president and my father was organized but was actually loaned 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:51.880 to NASA from the CIA to organize egypt Secret and 0:04:51.920 --> 0:04:56.600 Teller's organization. And then we my father decided to go 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:59.520 on his own with some other CIA guys and they 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:02.279 would for their own private ci A and go and 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:04.480 we moved to Lebanon. So I lived in Lebanon for 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:08.760 twelve years. So I spent probably half of my early 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:12.680 childhood and somewhere around the Middle East. And to what 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:16.520 degree did these experiences inform your career as a manager. 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:19.159 What I'm really talking about is you're the first manager 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:21.440 I know who took their band, in this case, the 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:26.000 police around the world. How did you decide to do that? Well, 0:05:26.080 --> 0:05:29.160 I don't know that I could say with some sort 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:34.279 of definite um news or position to say, well, you know, 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:36.400 because I grew up in Egypt. That's why I wanted 0:05:36.400 --> 0:05:39.000 a couple Asia. But I knew Egypt existed, you know, 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:41.600 I knew the rest of the world existed. And if 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:45.600 there was one thing I knew about, you know, marketing 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:48.520 and rock and roll and whatever, is that image counts 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:50.919 for a lot. And you know, if you look at 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:53.520 the Beatles, it's long hair, or it's you know, Elton 0:05:53.640 --> 0:05:56.760 John Wild clothes or you know, you you go down 0:05:56.800 --> 0:05:59.159 the list of the real big superstars, there was always 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:01.839 something that was grabbed your attention. It could be a 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:05.560 photograph or a uh something about them, you know. And 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:08.560 I was figured, well, you know, the police. When I 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:11.920 was managing the police, I had two great advantages. One 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:14.720 was there's only three guys, which means it was very 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:18.000 inexpensive to move them around. And not only was it, 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:21.040 uh three guys, but it was at a period where 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:24.800 having a lot of equipment was really not something that 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:26.520 you needed, you know, it was actually better if you 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:28.440 didn't have a lot of equipment. So it was a 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:31.479 cheap operation. We could go to place as nobody else went. 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:33.719 You know. The other great advantage of the police was 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:35.640 they looked good, you know, and the sting looked like, 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:37.800 you know, you dressed them up as an Arab, but 0:06:37.800 --> 0:06:40.440 put him on a stallion. There's Lawrence a Rabia for you, 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:43.520 you know. So I figured, well, if we're gonna go 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:47.000 for mystique and for glamour and for photographs, you know, 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:49.440 and we're just a few of us, why not why 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:52.240 not go to Egypt and why not go to eat 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:55.720 India and some exotic places, because you know, you take 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:58.920 a picture of the police riding camels with the Pyramids 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:02.400 in the background, that's a photograph that any music journalist 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:04.960 who's busy trying to put his newspaper together for that 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:07.159 week is gonna think, well, that's a photo I could use. 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:09.479 And that was sort of the market it was. It was, 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:11.760 in a way, it was a marketing idea, you know, 0:07:12.040 --> 0:07:13.480 but it was also a lot of fun, you know, 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:16.000 the kind of you know, when we went to India, 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:19.000 we dressed up. I dressed them up as Maraja maharajahs 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:24.280 at the Tajbaal Hotel and but it was definitely something 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:26.720 that made them look glamorous and a lot of people 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:29.040 around the world be thinking, my god, what a wonderful 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:31.480 you know, what a hip happening. Group. They must be. 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:33.880 Look look where they are. They're they're playing in India, 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:36.640 They're playing in all these wild, exotic places, and it 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:39.400 made them so different than everybody else. You know, anybody 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:41.920 could play Boston or New York or London or whatever, 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:46.360 you know, but Egypt that was different. Talking about marketing, 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.360 was your idea for the members that being to all 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:53.440 die there here blonde? I will admit that was not 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:58.000 my idea. However, when I saw it, I thought, Eureka, 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:01.520 look that's a look that kind of glued them together 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:04.000 as a as a group, just like the Beatles, all 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:06.760 wearing long hair or whatever. You know. It was. It 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:08.960 was like a glue. But they had done it actually 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:11.480 for a regular experiment gun commercial, and the and the 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:14.160 people that wanted the commercial this that we want a 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:15.920 group and we want them all to be blonde hair, 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:18.120 you know, and so they dyed their hair for the commercial, 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:19.720 you know, to make a bit of a bit of 0:08:19.720 --> 0:08:22.480 extra money. But when I saw it, I recognized what 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:25.080 the value of that was. Okay, Now, these places you 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:27.840 took the band were places where they hadn't had rock 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:31.280 conscience before. And I would assume there were some bumps 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:34.079 in the road especially in India. What was your experience 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:40.080 like playing in India. Well, India was was something where 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:43.120 you know, you sort of imagined what things are gonna be, 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:45.000 but you get to the place and you find out 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:47.520 that things aren't quite what you imagine. You know, you 0:08:47.600 --> 0:08:50.200 imagine India that big country with at least have a 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:52.520 p A system. Well, when I got to India, it 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:54.560 took me a while to find somebody who would promote 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:56.600 a show. But the first thing I found out, of course, 0:08:56.640 --> 0:08:59.600 there was no PA system. The only one that existed 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:02.400 was for twenty people or so. So I effectively had 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:05.200 to figure away to get a p A system into India, 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:09.400 which meant hiring some very good carpenters who could build 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:12.800 the big speaker cabinets, but they had no speakers in India. 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:14.920 So I had to go to London to buy speakers 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:17.560 and fly to back to India with speakers to give 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:21.000 it to these these uh carpenters to stick in the cabinets. 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:23.400 So we actually built our own p A system for India. 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:26.800 The other thing about India that was was unique was 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:30.800 that we had we turned out we had there had 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:33.880 never been a rock concert of any size in India before, 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:37.600 and we hired a three thousand seat venue open air, 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:41.400 and uh, the group, you know, we we went out 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:43.520 to do a sound check because every band would you know, 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:45.600 three or four o'clock in the afternoon, you do your 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:48.080 sound check to make sure everything's working for the show 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:50.480 that night, which was gonna be at seven or eight o'clock, 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:53.559 you know, start. But of course the audience had never 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:55.960 heard a rock concert before and they were beginning to 0:09:56.800 --> 0:10:01.080 uh come to the concert hall early in the afternoon. 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:05.360 So when the band started the sound check, the audience 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:08.120 thought the concert had started and they were missing it. 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:11.280 So they all freaked out, and we're climbing the walls 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:14.280 and finally broke the gates down and stormed the venue, 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:17.400 and before we knew it, the place filled up with 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:20.400 all these fans thinking the show it started. Meanwhile there 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:25.160 was the police just basically sound checking. Okay, And since 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:28.880 you've lived in Egypt, was its smooth sailing there? Well? 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:32.920 Egypt had several problems for it. First place was I 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:36.120 went to Egypt beforehand, knowing that you really need to 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:39.320 check things out in advance, so of course I went. 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:41.720 It was at the American University, which I figured was 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:45.040 a decent hall, which it was, and great, do you 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:48.800 have electricity? Does it work? Yeah? Okay, electricity works. Do 0:10:48.840 --> 0:10:53.280 you have uh spotlights? Yeah, okay, there are the spotlights. Okay, 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:56.120 you've got spotlights. And so I I vetted the place 0:10:56.160 --> 0:11:01.280 and I thought, well, okay, we're pretty together. So we were. 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:04.240 The first show was in India. Then we came into Egypt. Well, 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:08.080 I I had made a mistake or somehow the wires 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:10.040 got crossed. And the first thing that happened was the 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:14.400 equipment came in on air frase as opposed to access 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:19.800 baggage and uh, so I go to pick up the 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:21.800 the equipment so we can do the show that night, 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:24.520 and of course there's no equipment there because it came 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:27.160 in on the freight a supposed to excess baggage. And 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:29.440 I had a little fixed man by the name of Muhammed, 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:32.680 and I said, Mohammed, Uh, what are we gonna do 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:35.240 with the equipment is not here? They said, well maybe 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:37.400 it is. It a freight. So we go to the 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:40.640 air freight blights, which of course was a Friday, and 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:45.160 uh it was their their holiday there, religious holiday like 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:48.280 like our Sunday. And there was a guy there and says, 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:53.400 sunny gonna impuzzy, but we cannot help you come back Monday, 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:56.800 you know. I said, we can't Monday. The show is tonight, 0:11:57.000 --> 0:12:00.080 you know. And uh so Muhammed, what were gonna do? 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:04.040 He society Sunday, I cannot tell this was embuzzyment Monday. 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:07.480 Cannot cannot help unless you know someone the someone in 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:10.320 the government, you know. And I said, well, I do 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:12.880 remember a guy I my father told me about and 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:15.040 who's the they are neighbor when we lived in Egypt. 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:17.000 I heard that he was a big deal in the 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:19.600 British the government, so I do know him. He said, 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:23.720 what's his name? I said, huss Hussan behind me. You 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:26.760 know this man, he is the vice but let us 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:30.280 thought of Egypt. He could do anything. He is a god. 0:12:30.520 --> 0:12:33.319 I said, well, get him on the phone. Lo and 0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:35.120 behold he does. Get him on the phone, and I 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:37.640 get this vice prime minister on the phone and he's 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:39.280 going and this is the gold letter. How are you? 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:43.319 How's your family, your bub, how's your father? Is all good? Everything? 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:45.840 You know? I said, yeah, it's all good. But I've 0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:48.079 got a problem here. I can't get my equipment. It's 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:51.840 in it's in it's in freight and there's nobody working here, 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:56.800 and he says, don't I said someone immediately, no more 0:12:56.840 --> 0:13:01.079 than ten minutes went by, sirens wailing. Twenty policeman show up. 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:06.199 They waived the equipment through and I'm a hero. You 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:08.800 go out and I looked at Stay and I said, sting, 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:13.120 that's management for you. Then that night, that night though, 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:15.840 of course, then I showed you just how stupid manager 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:18.640 early was. Okay, so we get ready and we're just 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:20.640 doing the sound check, you know, and I'm saying, okay, 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:23.720 well can you I want the spotlights on the study. 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:27.920 Mystificld Limn. I can cannot do this. What do you 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:30.000 mean there's a spotlights? Can you turn the spotlight on 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:33.480 so we can have no But there's no bulbs. So 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:35.599 what do you mean there's no bulbs? He says, we 0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:37.800 have a spotlight, but there's no bulbs in the spotlights. 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:40.839 And I said, well, go get something. He says, but 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:43.319 we don't have there's none in Egypt. We have to 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:48.160 go to Europe to get them. What you mean you've 0:13:48.200 --> 0:13:50.160 got spot You told me there were spotlights is, yes, 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:52.959 we have spudlights, I said, but the old bulbs said them. 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:56.559 He said, no, it's the bugs. So we actually had that. 0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:58.000 We had a film crew with it, so we had 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:00.679 to have the sun guns and the film crew, and 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:02.439 that was just the start of our problems. So we 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:04.599 had not a lot of light for the show. But 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:06.959 of course then then, of course who turns up with 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:09.719 the chief of Cairo Police with his wife and his 0:14:09.800 --> 0:14:12.080 two kids, and he's in his suit and she's all 0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:14.640 decked out and all her jewelry and her finery, and 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:17.880 of course what's he wants. He wants the front row. 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:21.000 And I'm saying to him, so excuse me, sir, but 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:23.240 you know, I really don't. It's a rock concert. You 0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:25.400 don't want to be at the front row because you 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:27.680 know you're gonna get bobbed by fans. Are gonna want to, 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:29.560 you know, be close to the band. I said, you 0:14:29.600 --> 0:14:31.720 really want to be like, you know, twenty rows back 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:34.280 or someplace, you know, someplace safe. No, no, no, and 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:39.760 must have the front row, okay, I warned you. Sure enough, 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:43.760 one minute into the show, kids are rushing the stage 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:47.720 to hope places bedlam. The chief of police is fighting 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:50.200 people off, trying to protect his wife and his kids, 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:53.600 and Sting takes numbers at this and kind of walks 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:55.480 over and sticks his foot out on the chief of 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:57.480 police and taps him on the shoulder and says, you know, 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:00.360 stub that you know because he was and if that's 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:02.960 a huge insult in Asia. So next thing I know, 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:04.680 I'm standing on the side of the stage and all 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:06.840 these policemen and the chief of police is rushing up 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:08.440 to the side of the stage and they're telling me 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:11.200 just go he go to jail. And he taking to jail. 0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:14.280 You know. I said, what what happened? Is the chief 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:17.480 of police and my mohammed, my fixing guy says Mr 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:21.360 Goblin Stickers just hit the chief of police. He's going 0:15:21.400 --> 0:15:23.800 to be in jail tonight. You must do something, you know. 0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:27.840 So I have to have an apology, you know. So 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:30.960 I waited for the song day. I walk out on 0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:33.400 stage and I said, Sting, you just kicked the chief 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:35.880 of police at Cairo. He wants to put you in jail. 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:38.080 You've got to apologize. And sing looks at me and 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:42.520 says no, I said, Sting, for Christ's sake, you gotta 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:46.240 pud No. He said he shouldn't have done that, you know. 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:50.520 So I go back wait for the next song, and 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:52.840 I go back out against thing. Look, this is serious. 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:55.080 You're gonna be in jail tonight in Cairo, and I 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:56.360 don't know if I can get you out. So I'll 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:59.880 tell you what. Let me do the talking. I'll apologize 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:02.080 and I'll look at you and you just nod your 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:05.120 head like you're agreeing with me. Okay, will you do that? 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:07.920 It says, okay, I'll do that. So at the end 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:10.800 of the show, the police are on the side of 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:12.800 the stage. They rush out, they grab Staying and I'm 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:14.680 all right there in front of him, and I'm going, Mr, 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:17.800 I'm so saudy, and I'm remembering every bit of Arabic 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:20.960 I could think of, you know. I'm we apologize and 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:23.920 it shouldn't have happened, you know, everything I could think of, 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:25.440 you know. And then I would look at Staying and 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:28.000 say Sting, you know, given the sign, and he nodded 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:30.000 an agreement, you know. And then I look back at 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:32.360 the Chief of police. And so the bluff worked, and 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:33.840 at the end of it, the Chief of Police turns 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:35.880 to me and says, I don't like Zack Man, but 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:38.520 you are honor. I go now, and how do you left? 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:41.760 And I went up to Sting and I I went 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:44.040 up to stay at us at Staying, I just saved 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:48.080 you from a state worse than death. That was our 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:50.560 story of Cairo. Let's go back to the beginning of 0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:53.200 the police's career. Legend has it that you made a 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:56.400 unique deal with A and M. There was no upfront money, 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:58.600 but you've got a better royalty rate. What really went 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:02.720 down there, Well, it's true I did make a deal 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:04.800 with A and M for no money and a very 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:08.600 high royalty rate, but it was not necessarily because I 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:11.560 was being so brilliant, you know, and and uh, it 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:14.320 was really a matter of I had no choice. I knew. 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.720 I knew one thing, and that is that the police 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:20.080 had very little going for them that I could go 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:22.119 to a record company and try to talk him into 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:25.040 a record deal. There was no tour upcoming, there was 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:28.720 no press, there was no fan base. It was literally nothing. 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:30.879 As a matter of fact, the police were sort of 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:34.000 shunned by the punks because they were older, and they 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:37.840 were not recognized by the older bands and either. So 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:40.800 basically the police were in no man's land. There was 0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:44.600 nothing to recommend him except for one thing. The music 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:47.119 they made in the studio was great. The Chastle had 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:50.160 rock sand so I knew the music had to speak 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:52.720 for itself. So I figured if I went to the 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:54.840 record label and I said, look, you know, and I 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:57.280 set up a scenario where he only listened to the 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:00.159 music and made a judgment based on whether you're the 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:02.879 music or not and not. At the back of his 0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:05.520 head was you know, what's this gonna cost me? You know, 0:18:05.880 --> 0:18:07.760 is this gonna eat up my budget for the year. 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:11.040 What's my boss gonna think? You know, suppose this fails, 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:13.520 if I gonna look like a fool, all the sort 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:15.680 of negatives that an average a and our guy would 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:18.880 be having, I had to eliminate. So you only listened 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:21.000 to music. So I went in and I said, look, 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:24.920 I got nothing to recommend this group except about amazing music. 0:18:25.119 --> 0:18:27.080 So I want to make you a deal. I'm giving 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:30.600 you the record for free. It's yours. You don't have 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:33.560 to negotiate. Just give me the highest royalty you can. 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:38.240 It's free. Now listen to the record and put on 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:41.119 the record. And of course he heard Roxanne and all 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:44.240 the songs and and that Police album was a great album. 0:18:44.440 --> 0:18:46.960 And I bet you it was the only time he 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:50.400 ever listened to music without anything worrying in the back 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:52.880 of his mind about whether, you know, this might lose 0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:54.960 his job or eat up his budget for the year 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:57.560 or whatever. He just listened to the music and it 0:18:57.680 --> 0:18:59.159 was one of those things where it's like, you know, 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:00.760 when you got to lose, there was nothing, there was 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:04.600 nothing to lose, And that sort of strategy was one 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:08.000 that it worked. If I had asked for money, I'm 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:11.480 sure he would have said no. So you make a deal. 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:15.240 Do they put the record out in the UK? What happened, Well, 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:18.720 the British part of the deal was, look, you'll put 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:20.640 the single out in America, but I don't I don't 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:22.480 know if that ever really happened, to tell you the truth. 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:24.680 But they did put the single out in England. So 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:27.119 Roxanne came out, but it didn't really get a lot 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:29.400 of attention. Like I was saying, you know, it wasn't 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:31.960 a lot really going to the police. So I decided 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:33.960 that the only really way I could get something to 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:36.240 happen for them was to make something happen in the USA, 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:39.400 where nobody knew who they were. So my brother Ian 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:42.200 had had gotten a job at the Paragon Agency, which 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:45.920 was a booking agency. In making Georgia and being in 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:48.280 making Georgia, they felt them they were always sort of 0:19:48.320 --> 0:19:50.800 feeling like they were off the beaten track, and to 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:53.040 get a British group or something would be something special 0:19:53.160 --> 0:19:54.920 for them. So I called in and I said, look, 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:57.600 you think you can book the Police for a tour 0:19:57.680 --> 0:19:59.440 of America. I don't care wherever he played, just can 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:01.760 you get us some shows? And he said, well, it's 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:03.760 gonna be tough. You've got no record deal and there's 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:06.120 nobody supporting you and all that. I said, yes, there's 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:08.920 only three guys in a ROADI literally we can. We 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:10.960 can get by on a station wagon and a few 0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:13.240 hundred bucks a night. We can make it work because 0:20:13.359 --> 0:20:16.520 Laker Airways has got seventy five dollar tickets to America, 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:18.600 so it's only gonna cost you if you want the 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:21.040 bucks to get him there? Can you get me shows? 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:23.320 And he said, well, I'll try, and lo and behold, 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:27.119 he gets five weeks of gates all in dumps. I 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:30.560 mean the worst venues you could think of. I mean, 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:32.960 CB g VS is famous, but it was a dump. 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:36.200 You know, the Rat Club in Boston and well named, 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:39.440 I might add, you know, and they played places where 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:42.080 you know, who knows what they were. They were disco 0:20:42.200 --> 0:20:44.720 tags or whatever. But he managed to get shows. But 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:48.280 the funny thing was the show that he did in 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:52.440 Syracuse was in a cold night and only four people 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:54.600 showed up. I mean, after all, it was a group 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:56.639 that we've ever heard of. Why should they show up, 0:20:56.720 --> 0:21:01.000 you know, some club and uh, four people show up 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:04.240 and the police decide, you know, well, you know what, 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:07.160 four people actually bought tickets and here in the Syracuse 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:09.080 Modius there we are, so you know what, let's go 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:11.560 out and give him a great show. So how they went. 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:16.240 They did a killer show. And one of those four 0:21:16.359 --> 0:21:18.720 people turned out to be a DJ at m i 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:21.680 Q University back in Boston who had a radio show 0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:25.280 and he was so named with a group that would 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:27.560 walk out and do that that he started. They gave 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:29.639 him the Rock Sande single that they had got they 0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:32.360 had pressed up in England, and he started banging out 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:35.879 on the station and next thing you know, some other 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:38.120 stations picked up on it and it became a regional 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:45.440 hit in the in the whole Northeast. And uh, in January, 0:21:45.800 --> 0:21:48.119 Jerry Moss, who was always looking at you know, the 0:21:48.200 --> 0:21:50.440 Emma Vane and Records started looking at who was looking 0:21:50.480 --> 0:21:52.479 at Billboard, as all the record people do. They look 0:21:52.520 --> 0:21:55.520 on the radio charts in the back pages of Billboard magazine, 0:21:55.800 --> 0:21:58.639 which is the sort of the music business magazine. And 0:21:58.760 --> 0:22:01.840 he saw that one of the biggest imports was the 0:22:01.920 --> 0:22:03.960 Police and it had A and M Records next to me. 0:22:04.880 --> 0:22:06.680 So he knew me from the past that we called 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:10.040 me up and he said, Myles, is this uh my band? 0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:12.240 Is this Police that says A and M Records? Does 0:22:12.280 --> 0:22:14.080 that mean it's an America too? And I said, yeah 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:17.159 it is. He said, well, you're you're the top ad 0:22:17.359 --> 0:22:20.200 on on Northeast radio, you know. I said, well, let's 0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:22.159 do something. He said, well, let's get the band over 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:24.680 here again. We'll put the record out. I said, fantastic. 0:22:25.280 --> 0:22:26.920 So I called my brother Ian again. I said, I 0:22:27.040 --> 0:22:29.679 in okay, the record companies now behind us, get us 0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:32.680 a tour. Can you book us another tour? And sure enough, 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:34.800 about two months later, the Police head off to America 0:22:34.840 --> 0:22:37.040 again for our second tour, this time with A and 0:22:37.160 --> 0:22:38.680 M banking. And that was really the start of the 0:22:38.720 --> 0:22:41.760 Police in America. But it was that, you know, I 0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:44.040 I often get asked by people you know, what was 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:46.920 the most important show you ever did? And they would 0:22:46.920 --> 0:22:49.440 imagine I would say something like, you know cha stadium, 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:51.920 you know eighty thousand people that sold out in a 0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:54.320 few minutes. And I said, no, no, no, no. The 0:22:54.400 --> 0:22:56.680 most important show the Police ever did was the four 0:22:56.800 --> 0:23:00.320 people in Syracuse on that first tour. It just so 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:05.439 happened that one of those four people happened to be important. Okay, 0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:08.960 So the legend on the Police is they did not 0:23:09.160 --> 0:23:12.639 like each other, sometimes stronger hated each other. He was 0:23:12.720 --> 0:23:14.880 that true? And b was that true from the beginning. 0:23:15.960 --> 0:23:18.320 The story of the Police really is is this is 0:23:18.400 --> 0:23:23.239 that it was? It was an interesting dynamic. Uh, there 0:23:23.320 --> 0:23:26.520 were three threes. There was the three brothers, story, Ian 0:23:26.600 --> 0:23:31.000 and I, each playing a different role. Stewart created the Police, 0:23:31.040 --> 0:23:32.840 He came up with a name. It was his idea. 0:23:33.160 --> 0:23:36.200 He always thought it was his band. Sting wrote to 0:23:36.320 --> 0:23:39.240 hit songs, and it was the look and and he 0:23:39.400 --> 0:23:40.720 was a great player, and he was sort of the 0:23:40.760 --> 0:23:43.359 peacemaker between them, you know, so I think there was 0:23:43.560 --> 0:23:46.720 there was There was always some sort of let's say, 0:23:46.960 --> 0:23:50.760 I wouldn't quite call it animosity, but Stewart looked at 0:23:50.800 --> 0:23:53.040 as his band. But he also knew that Sting was 0:23:53.840 --> 0:23:57.480 really the driver of it. Uh. I as the manager, 0:23:57.560 --> 0:23:59.239 Ian as the agent, we all had a big part 0:23:59.320 --> 0:24:01.320 to play. So that was it was a combination of 0:24:01.440 --> 0:24:05.119 forces who were making the police happen. It wasn't single 0:24:05.200 --> 0:24:08.280 e Stewart or it wasn't singlely Sting, you know. So 0:24:08.520 --> 0:24:10.600 a lot of a lot of the thing about that 0:24:10.920 --> 0:24:14.000 they were hated was exaggerated because they made a better story. 0:24:14.880 --> 0:24:17.359 I remember the first documentary on the police, you know, 0:24:17.520 --> 0:24:20.080 I was, I was interviewed and they asked the same question. 0:24:20.200 --> 0:24:22.280 He was asked, to the police really hate each other? 0:24:22.359 --> 0:24:25.600 And I said, well, no, actually there was. There was tension, 0:24:25.680 --> 0:24:28.200 of course, you know, because in a bandit's happening, and 0:24:29.240 --> 0:24:32.439 as crazy as it was, you know, yeah, there was tension, 0:24:32.560 --> 0:24:34.560 but no, there was no hatred. There. There was sort 0:24:34.600 --> 0:24:38.000 of a uh there were times like, for instance, when 0:24:38.119 --> 0:24:40.680 Stewart got so excited he sweeds Sting a little hard 0:24:40.720 --> 0:24:42.720 and he cracked his ring. You know, that was not 0:24:42.840 --> 0:24:45.200 because he hated Staying. That was because he was so excited, 0:24:45.320 --> 0:24:48.080 you know. And I said, but you know, I so 0:24:48.240 --> 0:24:50.639 I sort of downplayed the whole idea of the police 0:24:50.680 --> 0:24:53.760 hating each other. Well, when the documentary comes out, I'm 0:24:53.840 --> 0:24:56.760 hardly in it, and I'm looking at the documentary and 0:24:57.080 --> 0:24:59.040 I'm seeing guys in there that I didn't even know 0:24:59.600 --> 0:25:01.760 who see need to be experts on the police, and 0:25:01.800 --> 0:25:04.240 they were saying thing, oh yeah, you know, sticking story, 0:25:04.359 --> 0:25:06.679 hate each other, and oh yeah, there was an each 0:25:06.720 --> 0:25:09.280 other's throat, and I'm going and I went to the 0:25:09.520 --> 0:25:11.119 I went to the MTV people and I said, what 0:25:11.200 --> 0:25:12.919 are you doing. That's not true, and he said, well, 0:25:12.960 --> 0:25:15.760 it makes a better story. And the fact of the 0:25:15.840 --> 0:25:18.679 matter is, I'm probably the least. I knew more than 0:25:18.720 --> 0:25:21.359 anyone other than the three band members, but I'm in 0:25:21.440 --> 0:25:24.400 the least in the video because I was not telling 0:25:24.480 --> 0:25:26.840 what they wanted to hear. It's a better story that 0:25:26.920 --> 0:25:29.600 they hated each other. You know, later in later years, 0:25:29.720 --> 0:25:33.000 there was probably a bit more animosity because when they 0:25:33.040 --> 0:25:35.399 did the reunion tour, I mean, I I hear this 0:25:35.640 --> 0:25:38.399 that Staying wanted to change some of the songs and 0:25:39.160 --> 0:25:41.480 change the chords and Stewart didn't really like it. So 0:25:41.600 --> 0:25:44.119 maybe there was more animosity later on. But during the 0:25:44.119 --> 0:25:47.840 police years, you know, from from what I saw was 0:25:47.920 --> 0:25:51.399 their tension was there was there you know, naturally there 0:25:51.400 --> 0:25:54.920 would be, but there was no hatred. So how the 0:25:55.080 --> 0:25:58.520 three Copeland brothers that have a father and intelligence and 0:25:58.640 --> 0:26:02.600 all end up in the music by a complete fluke, 0:26:03.240 --> 0:26:06.520 you know? And uh, I mean it's it's one of 0:26:06.600 --> 0:26:08.440 the things that I mean, I just I just wrote 0:26:08.480 --> 0:26:11.879 a book, my memoirs, but I actually just today placed 0:26:11.920 --> 0:26:15.880 with a publisher. Uh and uh so it'll be out 0:26:16.560 --> 0:26:18.240 in three or four more months, you know. And I 0:26:18.400 --> 0:26:21.480 explained this, but it's one of the curious stories that 0:26:21.960 --> 0:26:24.359 um you know. Here I was, I knew nothing about 0:26:24.400 --> 0:26:28.280 the music business, and I met a group inn in 0:26:28.440 --> 0:26:30.560 Beirut and said, look, we think you can help us. 0:26:30.640 --> 0:26:33.760 And I go to London and on my way to 0:26:33.960 --> 0:26:36.480 report to the U. S. Army because I just got drafted, 0:26:36.520 --> 0:26:37.800 and they came to me and said, we want you 0:26:37.840 --> 0:26:40.399 to be our manager. I said, well, I'd love to, 0:26:40.600 --> 0:26:44.080 but crazy idea, but I'm drafted, you know. So I 0:26:44.200 --> 0:26:47.720 went off to America got rejected by the U. S. 0:26:47.840 --> 0:26:50.280 Army because I have high arches, you know, I wouldn't 0:26:50.280 --> 0:26:52.080 even trying to get out of the army, but they 0:26:52.160 --> 0:26:55.800 rejected me. I was one of two thousand people, the 0:26:55.960 --> 0:26:59.000 only one to get rejected. So I felt, in a 0:26:59.080 --> 0:27:02.000 way sort of bad, except that it was Vietnam time 0:27:02.480 --> 0:27:04.040 and all my friends were trying to figure out way 0:27:04.040 --> 0:27:06.720 to get out of the army and I had inadvertently 0:27:06.760 --> 0:27:09.040 got out of it. But I sent it a cable 0:27:09.080 --> 0:27:11.080 back to London saying, well, I'm out of the Army. 0:27:11.440 --> 0:27:13.119 I get a cable back from this this group that 0:27:13.200 --> 0:27:16.400 I was I ended up managing. They said, God bless 0:27:16.560 --> 0:27:20.159 your feet. Anyway, the group became Wishbone Ash, which was 0:27:20.240 --> 0:27:22.840 the first group I ever managed, and it was really 0:27:22.920 --> 0:27:24.680 a lark. I went back to London. I didn't know 0:27:24.800 --> 0:27:27.240 what I was gonna do. I I had imagined I 0:27:27.320 --> 0:27:29.640 was gonna be two years in the army and they said, 0:27:29.680 --> 0:27:32.600 we think you could help us, and you know, why not, 0:27:32.960 --> 0:27:34.840 you know, and I just said, what the hell? And 0:27:34.960 --> 0:27:37.600 next thing I knew I was in the music business. Okay, 0:27:37.680 --> 0:27:40.400 you were learning on the fly. You're obviously a smart guy, 0:27:40.720 --> 0:27:44.160 but you must have made big mistakes. Well, I think 0:27:44.240 --> 0:27:46.119 you know. One of the great lessons of life is 0:27:46.280 --> 0:27:48.520 you can just learn. You can learn things and mistakes 0:27:48.840 --> 0:27:52.400 maybe even more than successes. You know, I sure made mistakes. 0:27:52.520 --> 0:27:54.840 But the one thing I knew that I know what 0:27:55.000 --> 0:27:58.040 I like, So it was not something where I was 0:27:58.080 --> 0:28:00.159 always looking over my shoulder to say, well, you know, 0:28:00.359 --> 0:28:01.840 how do I know it's any good? Well, you know, 0:28:02.080 --> 0:28:04.520 my my view was I like it, so it must 0:28:04.560 --> 0:28:06.879 be good, you know. And that was really it was 0:28:06.960 --> 0:28:09.080 as simple as that. And it was not a time 0:28:09.119 --> 0:28:12.840 where it was let's say, there were no classes and 0:28:14.119 --> 0:28:16.439 university to learn how to be a rock and roll manager, 0:28:16.600 --> 0:28:19.120 you know, so most managers were learning on the fly, 0:28:19.480 --> 0:28:22.680 you know. And who's to know what makes something work 0:28:22.760 --> 0:28:24.639 and something not work? You know? This has always been 0:28:24.640 --> 0:28:27.440 a mystery, you know. And it's not just money, you know. 0:28:27.560 --> 0:28:28.879 There are a lot of people that have tons of 0:28:28.920 --> 0:28:32.000 money try to make something happen. It doesn't happen. But 0:28:32.280 --> 0:28:35.480 I didn't. I knew what I liked, and I guess 0:28:35.560 --> 0:28:39.000 I didn't have the feeling that I was worse or 0:28:39.120 --> 0:28:41.400 better than anybody else, so why not And I kind 0:28:41.440 --> 0:28:44.000 of just went out and did it. And being in 0:28:44.120 --> 0:28:47.320 England where a lot of the attitudes in England at 0:28:47.360 --> 0:28:49.800 that time where you know, I would call it a 0:28:49.880 --> 0:28:52.520 glass half full country, you know, where I look at 0:28:52.560 --> 0:28:54.640 a glass half full and I would say it's it's 0:28:55.280 --> 0:28:57.680 that Sorry, I would I would put that another way. 0:28:57.760 --> 0:29:00.680 There a glass half empty country, whereas I was a 0:29:00.760 --> 0:29:03.480 glass half full country. We could look at the same glass. 0:29:03.560 --> 0:29:05.120 They would say, well it's empty, and I would say, 0:29:05.160 --> 0:29:08.240 well it's full. So I basically just said, well, I 0:29:08.280 --> 0:29:10.160 don't know what I'm not supposed to know, so well, 0:29:10.200 --> 0:29:12.400 let's just go out and do it. And I would 0:29:12.520 --> 0:29:17.000 dream up ideas, and with one of my first stunts, 0:29:17.120 --> 0:29:20.239 I went to trying to find a show. I had 0:29:20.320 --> 0:29:23.120 no idea how to get a show going, you know, 0:29:24.280 --> 0:29:27.360 and so I down the road from where I was 0:29:27.440 --> 0:29:29.719 staying with my parents. There was a college that had 0:29:29.760 --> 0:29:32.320 put on shows, and I went down there and called 0:29:32.360 --> 0:29:34.200 them up and said, look, could I get an opening 0:29:34.280 --> 0:29:37.400 slot for the show? And I was kind of put off, 0:29:37.440 --> 0:29:39.520 and so I decided to go to the college myself. 0:29:39.560 --> 0:29:42.200 So I went to the college. I met the person 0:29:42.320 --> 0:29:44.600 organizing the show as one of the students, and I said, well, 0:29:44.640 --> 0:29:48.080 I've got the opening act on the show, and they go, okay, 0:29:48.200 --> 0:29:50.080 we we don't know about that, but if you say 0:29:50.160 --> 0:29:52.960 so so. And then I went back to the group 0:29:53.000 --> 0:29:56.360 and I said, look, just show up because the college 0:29:56.360 --> 0:29:59.600 stakes you're on, you know. And then headline group they 0:29:59.680 --> 0:30:01.880 showed up and they thought the college had book the 0:30:02.000 --> 0:30:06.720 opening act. So the college thought the headline acted about 0:30:06.760 --> 0:30:08.880 the opening act, and the headline acting got to college 0:30:08.880 --> 0:30:10.800 of book the act, and meanwhile, I wish I would 0:30:10.800 --> 0:30:12.320 ask for how to do the show, and nobody said 0:30:12.320 --> 0:30:14.160 anything wise, and of course we didn't get paid, but 0:30:14.240 --> 0:30:16.760 they played a show. So it was stuff like that. 0:30:17.000 --> 0:30:20.280 He was just doing it, you know. And uh that 0:30:20.480 --> 0:30:27.800 that kind of got the ball rolling. Did you get 0:30:27.920 --> 0:30:32.440 Wishbone ash their record deal? Yeah? How did you do that? Well? 0:30:32.520 --> 0:30:36.520 That was something where we did. I. I was so 0:30:36.720 --> 0:30:39.440 desperate to get shows, but I really had no clue 0:30:39.440 --> 0:30:42.280 how to do it. Uh. And I saw in the 0:30:42.360 --> 0:30:44.320 back pages of one of the music papers that there 0:30:44.400 --> 0:30:46.479 was a little book and it said the Booker's Bible 0:30:47.280 --> 0:30:50.320 and for twenty five pounds, which was the reason why 0:30:50.520 --> 0:30:52.440 money at that time, because the average of wage was 0:30:52.520 --> 0:30:55.640 something like nineteen pounds that that period, you know, so 0:30:56.160 --> 0:30:59.760 a week. So I thought, well, a booker's Bible which 0:30:59.800 --> 0:31:01.600 had every name in it. So I called up the 0:31:01.680 --> 0:31:03.560 phone number and sure enough that with the guy that 0:31:03.600 --> 0:31:06.640 answer it says, yes, it's got every phone number you 0:31:06.640 --> 0:31:09.240 could possibly want. All the clubs and all everybody the 0:31:09.280 --> 0:31:14.160 books shows, and I this guy sounded kind of crooked, 0:31:14.280 --> 0:31:16.800 you know, and I thought, well, you know, I'll think 0:31:16.840 --> 0:31:18.240 about it. And he said, look, i'll tell you what. 0:31:19.440 --> 0:31:21.840 I'll show you how the book works. He's paying the 0:31:21.920 --> 0:31:23.800 twenty five pounds. I'll show you it works. I'll come 0:31:23.840 --> 0:31:26.880 to your house and let's get a phone, and I'll 0:31:26.880 --> 0:31:28.640 show you how the book works. And I thought, well, 0:31:28.840 --> 0:31:30.760 you know, I'm desperate. I don't I have no clue. 0:31:30.800 --> 0:31:33.400 And the band's rehearsing and getting ready to do shows 0:31:33.440 --> 0:31:35.640 and they're gonna be asking me soon. Was our first 0:31:35.680 --> 0:31:38.800 gig and I had no gigs, you know, So I figured, well, okay, 0:31:38.800 --> 0:31:40.520 I'll bring this guy over. So I get this guy. 0:31:40.600 --> 0:31:42.200 Of course he looks just like the crook that he 0:31:42.280 --> 0:31:46.200 sounded like on the phone, and uh he booked some shows. 0:31:47.840 --> 0:31:52.920 Of course, first show comes around and off goes the 0:31:53.000 --> 0:31:55.560 group to the show, and of course there's no show. 0:31:57.760 --> 0:32:01.080 And uh I called him up and say, look, you 0:32:01.520 --> 0:32:03.560 there's no no no club where you said the was, 0:32:03.600 --> 0:32:06.440 you know, Oh, you've got the wrong address, and he 0:32:06.440 --> 0:32:09.280 gives me another address. The group goes to that. Of course, 0:32:09.800 --> 0:32:13.080 no show. So now I'm thinking, okay, all the shows 0:32:13.120 --> 0:32:14.880 in the book that he had booked. Because we had 0:32:14.920 --> 0:32:17.440 like eight shows in the books, they almost be funny 0:32:17.560 --> 0:32:19.760 or something's wrong. So I started calling all the places. 0:32:20.640 --> 0:32:25.920 Sure enough, everyone was like, no, we only booked discos, 0:32:26.120 --> 0:32:28.560 or no we hadn't. We don't have music groups here anymore, 0:32:28.640 --> 0:32:32.360 and everyone was a notion. So I thought, oh my god, 0:32:32.600 --> 0:32:35.800 Now I was so embarrassed. But I actually decided, you know, 0:32:36.240 --> 0:32:38.480 I mean, cold calling is a terribly hard thing to do. 0:32:38.680 --> 0:32:41.040 Just get on the phone and started calling somebody, you know, 0:32:41.840 --> 0:32:44.040 And I decided, well, I was so embarrassed that I 0:32:44.400 --> 0:32:46.720 knew that when the group came over to the rehearsals 0:32:46.760 --> 0:32:48.920 that I would have to tell them the bad news 0:32:49.000 --> 0:32:50.520 that all the shows they thought were in the books 0:32:50.520 --> 0:32:52.760 were gone. So I got on and I started using 0:32:52.800 --> 0:32:54.120 this book well and the whole. A lot of the 0:32:54.200 --> 0:32:58.120 numbers were good, and I started booking. I actually booked 0:32:58.160 --> 0:33:02.320 three shows, one of which Wasn't a show which was 0:33:02.520 --> 0:33:07.240 opening for Deep Purple in a place just outside of London. 0:33:08.120 --> 0:33:11.400 And Richie Blackmore, the guitarist of Deep Purple, saw wish 0:33:11.440 --> 0:33:14.280 Bone Ash I thought they were pretty good and men 0:33:14.520 --> 0:33:19.239 and mentioned it. The producer friend of his who then 0:33:19.320 --> 0:33:21.800 called me up and said, look, I'd like to produce 0:33:21.960 --> 0:33:25.880 your group. So that's how I met Derek Lawrence, who 0:33:25.960 --> 0:33:29.880 ended up producing the first Wished One ash album. So 0:33:30.000 --> 0:33:33.400 it's really Richie Blackmore from Deep Purple, who who had 0:33:33.720 --> 0:33:36.040 put his producer on it and who called me and 0:33:36.440 --> 0:33:39.280 what did I know, but sounded like a decent producer, 0:33:39.360 --> 0:33:41.720 and he said he could get me a record deal, 0:33:41.840 --> 0:33:44.160 and he did. He got a deal with a record 0:33:44.360 --> 0:33:46.720 And why was it the band bigger in the US? 0:33:47.320 --> 0:33:49.920 I think really it was cause they never really wrote 0:33:49.960 --> 0:33:53.520 that hit song and their vocals were never really killer. 0:33:54.280 --> 0:33:58.160 They were a good workman and like group um, and 0:33:58.720 --> 0:34:02.480 their disadvantage is that they, you know, they really did 0:34:02.640 --> 0:34:04.440 make a hit in America. You could have a lot 0:34:04.480 --> 0:34:06.000 of bands that are great, but if they don't have 0:34:06.080 --> 0:34:09.480 that hit song that gets all over the radio, it's 0:34:09.520 --> 0:34:11.719 never really gonna make it, you know. And wish One 0:34:11.760 --> 0:34:13.680 never really had that killer song. I mean, they had 0:34:13.719 --> 0:34:15.960 some songs that worked in the worldands for instance, or 0:34:16.719 --> 0:34:19.279 this town or that town, but overall, it just never 0:34:19.480 --> 0:34:23.600 was an act that had that winning song. And the 0:34:23.719 --> 0:34:27.320 vocals were okay, you know, the musicianship was great, but 0:34:27.520 --> 0:34:30.680 that really wasn't enough to make them a big, big deal. 0:34:30.760 --> 0:34:32.920 It made them an okay deal, you know. But I 0:34:33.040 --> 0:34:35.280 learned a lot, you know. It took me out across 0:34:35.320 --> 0:34:38.279 the country. I did shows all over America. I got 0:34:38.360 --> 0:34:41.080 involved with other groups, so I would say they were 0:34:41.120 --> 0:34:45.200 a learning experience, and uh, I valued that and it 0:34:45.640 --> 0:34:48.080 it came to be a great bunch of lessons and 0:34:48.200 --> 0:34:50.920 I applied to the police in later years. So how 0:34:50.960 --> 0:34:53.040 did you get involved with the Climax blues band? That 0:34:53.160 --> 0:34:56.799 was a band that I had heard records of them, 0:34:57.000 --> 0:34:59.400 and they had a great guitar player and they had 0:34:59.440 --> 0:35:02.520 great Volk goals. And I was in England obviously, and 0:35:02.600 --> 0:35:05.839 I had seen them advertised, but they were abandoned. Had 0:35:05.880 --> 0:35:10.160 been around for quite a while, but it never seemed 0:35:10.200 --> 0:35:12.759 to be getting anywhere. And so I basically as a lark, 0:35:12.880 --> 0:35:16.359 I said to them, Um, you know, I called him 0:35:16.400 --> 0:35:18.400 up and I said, look, I'm I'm a manager and 0:35:18.440 --> 0:35:20.759 I would like to represent you. And I know you've 0:35:20.800 --> 0:35:22.480 never been to America before. I could take you to 0:35:22.520 --> 0:35:25.640 America and uh, you know, you don't have a manager, 0:35:25.760 --> 0:35:27.399 and I think I could help you. And they were 0:35:27.600 --> 0:35:31.680 they basically put me off and uh. I kept calling 0:35:31.719 --> 0:35:33.880 them and they kept putting me off. And then one 0:35:33.920 --> 0:35:35.840 day I saw that they were playing in a local 0:35:35.920 --> 0:35:39.000 club in London, and I called him up and said, look, well, 0:35:39.040 --> 0:35:43.000 let me meet you in person at the club and uh, 0:35:43.680 --> 0:35:46.360 let's see if we can work something out. Well, I 0:35:46.400 --> 0:35:48.000 went down to the club. There's a place called the 0:35:48.040 --> 0:35:51.080 Marquee Club on on Wardor Street in the West end 0:35:51.120 --> 0:35:54.000 of London, and I'm there and of course they don't 0:35:54.080 --> 0:35:55.719 At the time they were supposed to meet, they didn't 0:35:55.719 --> 0:35:58.279 show up, and I waited an hour and they never 0:35:58.360 --> 0:36:00.800 showed up. So I said, the hell with it, the 0:36:00.880 --> 0:36:03.600 hell with them. I started walking back to my office 0:36:03.640 --> 0:36:06.960 and I'm walking down the street and just as they 0:36:07.000 --> 0:36:09.640 get to the street, corner of van comes whizzing by 0:36:09.760 --> 0:36:12.960 and I almost hit me, you know, and in the 0:36:13.040 --> 0:36:16.320 band was the Climax blues band. They thought I was 0:36:16.400 --> 0:36:18.400 sitting there on the street corner waiting for them to 0:36:18.480 --> 0:36:21.560 pass by, that that was that keen and on signing them. 0:36:21.600 --> 0:36:23.359 Actually I had said to hell when I was going home, 0:36:24.160 --> 0:36:26.560 but they waved and I realized it was them. So 0:36:26.640 --> 0:36:28.799 I walked back to the Marquee Club and they were 0:36:28.920 --> 0:36:31.120 Now they were like Okay, this guy must be real. 0:36:31.800 --> 0:36:33.879 He was so keen, honest, he waited on the street 0:36:33.920 --> 0:36:36.479 corner for us. So we made a deal. I became 0:36:36.520 --> 0:36:40.440 the manager. So were you involved with them when they 0:36:40.520 --> 0:36:43.440 had their big hits like I Couldn't Get It Right 0:36:43.520 --> 0:36:46.880 and who I Love You? Yeah, they couldn't get it right? 0:36:47.080 --> 0:36:51.400 Was really Uh. They had delivered an album and they 0:36:51.480 --> 0:36:53.640 had no hit on it, and I said to them, guys, 0:36:53.880 --> 0:36:57.960 you know I can make you much bigger than you are, 0:36:58.080 --> 0:36:59.880 but you've got to have that hit song and I 0:37:00.000 --> 0:37:01.480 don't hear it on the record, so you've got to 0:37:01.480 --> 0:37:03.520 go back to the studio. And I put up a 0:37:03.600 --> 0:37:05.360 bunch of names that have songs that I thought they 0:37:05.400 --> 0:37:08.239 could cover that might work. But they were against that, 0:37:08.360 --> 0:37:09.800 and they said, well, I think we have one, and 0:37:09.800 --> 0:37:12.719 they went and they wrote Couldn't Get It Right, And 0:37:13.080 --> 0:37:15.040 we went into studio and cut that. When I heard it, 0:37:15.120 --> 0:37:17.840 I realized that was the song that we needed, and 0:37:18.080 --> 0:37:19.680 of course it was. It went to number three in 0:37:19.719 --> 0:37:21.920 America and I think a number five in England and 0:37:22.000 --> 0:37:25.839 that that was the first big hit they had. Um 0:37:27.000 --> 0:37:29.800 and uh. So I I do take some credit for 0:37:29.840 --> 0:37:31.759 the fact that I pushed them to come up with 0:37:31.840 --> 0:37:36.359 the hit song, and that did um project them into 0:37:36.640 --> 0:37:39.640 a bigger marketplace. But by that time I was always 0:37:39.680 --> 0:37:44.800 having my own troubles financially and we ended up partying ways, 0:37:44.960 --> 0:37:47.160 and later on they had the song I Love You, 0:37:47.280 --> 0:37:50.239 which I was not part of. Okay, tell me more 0:37:50.280 --> 0:37:54.000 about these financial troubles. Partly because wish vawon Ash was 0:37:54.080 --> 0:37:56.600 a group that couldn't really I mean, we're not going 0:37:56.640 --> 0:37:58.120 to come up with a hit song. They were really 0:37:58.160 --> 0:38:00.840 going to make it live. And most of the bands 0:38:00.840 --> 0:38:03.960 I was working with, including Glimyss bands were great live bands, 0:38:04.880 --> 0:38:07.879 where you know, you're dealing with an audience, and what's 0:38:07.960 --> 0:38:09.959 live is a bit different than than a hit single 0:38:10.040 --> 0:38:12.200 on the radio, you know. So I figured if I 0:38:12.280 --> 0:38:16.279 could make the bands succeed through big concerts, then that 0:38:16.480 --> 0:38:18.920 would get them to be big enough, you know, that 0:38:18.960 --> 0:38:21.600 would break them wide open. And one of the markets 0:38:21.719 --> 0:38:24.600 where we were had not really broken yet was Europe. 0:38:25.239 --> 0:38:27.200 And so I dreamed that this idea that if I 0:38:27.280 --> 0:38:29.840 could put Wishbone Ash on with some other big acts 0:38:30.239 --> 0:38:32.759 and make it look like Wishbone was a headlighter, and 0:38:32.880 --> 0:38:36.000 we go do all these festivals in Europe, and I 0:38:36.120 --> 0:38:39.000 go spend the money to hire you know, Blue Red 0:38:39.160 --> 0:38:42.440 and John McLaughlin and all these various acts that we 0:38:42.560 --> 0:38:44.960 were working with. We were thinking about that I could 0:38:44.960 --> 0:38:47.520 make Wishbone Ash and Climax and the other bands I 0:38:47.600 --> 0:38:51.200 was working with look good, and in concept it was 0:38:51.239 --> 0:38:55.279 sort of a lot of pellucidt before a lot of pelluction. Conceptually, 0:38:55.320 --> 0:38:59.600 it was great and it worked. The problem was a 0:38:59.680 --> 0:39:03.280 lot of the technicalities of it were difficult and very expensive, 0:39:03.360 --> 0:39:05.400 and pretty soon I was cleaned out of money. I 0:39:05.480 --> 0:39:08.439 just had didn't didn't have the money to finance something 0:39:08.520 --> 0:39:11.719 like this. I mean, we we hired two planes and 0:39:11.840 --> 0:39:14.040 we go load up the equipment on the airplanes, you know, 0:39:14.080 --> 0:39:15.759 and I was thinking, in't that great? We got our own, 0:39:15.920 --> 0:39:19.239 our own planes. You know. The pilot shows up, realizes 0:39:19.320 --> 0:39:21.680 the plane super overweight with all equipment. He says, get 0:39:21.719 --> 0:39:24.320 that shut off my plane. You know, that was the 0:39:24.360 --> 0:39:26.279 start of our troubles. I had to hire trucks to 0:39:26.320 --> 0:39:29.239 carry the equipment to the next show, and one thing 0:39:29.320 --> 0:39:33.799 after another. Then lou Reid didn't show up. So we're 0:39:33.840 --> 0:39:36.640 trying to find out what happened to lou Reid, and 0:39:37.040 --> 0:39:40.800 uh turns out he was in Australia, you know. So 0:39:41.120 --> 0:39:43.680 I caught his agent, who was William Marson the time, 0:39:43.719 --> 0:39:46.040 and they said, well we we we've got a we've 0:39:46.040 --> 0:39:49.200 got a phone number for you, but uh um, you 0:39:49.320 --> 0:39:51.600 have to deal with it yourself. So I finally get 0:39:51.719 --> 0:39:56.200 him in his hotel room and in uh Australia, and 0:39:57.280 --> 0:40:01.759 his friend Rachel answers the phone said, uh uh hi, 0:40:02.120 --> 0:40:04.439 smiles Copeland. I wanted to know when lou Reid's gonna 0:40:04.440 --> 0:40:06.839 show up, because you know the dates are in a week. 0:40:07.440 --> 0:40:09.120 We needed no when we can pick him up at 0:40:09.120 --> 0:40:13.719 the airport, and only well, uh, lou uh doesn't know 0:40:13.800 --> 0:40:15.560 about the tour. He said, well, what do you mean 0:40:15.600 --> 0:40:18.000 I know about the door? Is it gonna talk to Louis? Well, 0:40:18.040 --> 0:40:21.520 he's in the bathroom. I said, well, I'll wait, and 0:40:21.640 --> 0:40:23.719 Rachel says, well, he's been here for three days, so 0:40:24.239 --> 0:40:28.480 it's gonna be a lot of weight. But but what 0:40:28.560 --> 0:40:30.640 do you mean three days? Well, he's been in there 0:40:30.680 --> 0:40:34.200 three days and he won't come out. So I knew 0:40:34.239 --> 0:40:36.160 by then we were in deep trouble. Of course, lou 0:40:36.239 --> 0:40:40.560 Reid never showed up. He had fired the agent beforehand, apparently, 0:40:41.080 --> 0:40:43.000 so I had to scamper around and find that we 0:40:43.160 --> 0:40:45.440 we finally found a Continua Turner to do the shows 0:40:45.480 --> 0:40:48.160 in his place. But of course we're trying to book 0:40:48.239 --> 0:40:49.839 them at the last minute, so of course the price 0:40:49.920 --> 0:40:52.800 tag went went up. Anyway, I got cleaned out, I was, 0:40:52.960 --> 0:40:55.880 I was on the verge of bankruptcy, and that was 0:40:56.600 --> 0:40:59.960 really the start of me. I mean, I lost everything. 0:41:00.760 --> 0:41:04.319 My brother's store was in curved there, and Climax Blues 0:41:04.400 --> 0:41:07.520 Band eventually left, Wishbone left, everybody left because I had 0:41:07.600 --> 0:41:10.480 no money, you know. But that was when the punks 0:41:10.520 --> 0:41:12.640 were coming along and nobody paid attention to them, and 0:41:12.680 --> 0:41:15.080 they had no money. So I knew what I was 0:41:15.160 --> 0:41:16.680 doing and had no money, and they didn't know what 0:41:16.760 --> 0:41:18.319 they were doing and had no money. So we were 0:41:18.440 --> 0:41:21.800 we were like destined to be together. So what was 0:41:21.840 --> 0:41:25.600 your next move with the punks? Well, I realized that 0:41:25.800 --> 0:41:27.920 they were you know, you couldn't help but pick up 0:41:27.960 --> 0:41:33.000 the British newspaper, which was the National Press, and the punks, 0:41:33.120 --> 0:41:35.080 you know, the sex pistols, the class they were all 0:41:35.080 --> 0:41:38.719 over the newspapers, you know, but the music press just 0:41:38.840 --> 0:41:41.320 shunned them, you know, And I kept thinking, well, you know, 0:41:41.520 --> 0:41:44.360 they're all over the press. And there's all this craziness 0:41:44.440 --> 0:41:47.480 and nobody pays attention to them, and everybody says they're losers. 0:41:48.160 --> 0:41:50.560 You know, maybe I can help, you know. And it 0:41:50.719 --> 0:41:53.000 just so happened that Malcolm mclair and the manager of 0:41:53.040 --> 0:41:56.200 the Sex Pistols, had an office above where I was working. 0:41:56.320 --> 0:41:58.560 I had gone back to an old office friend of 0:41:58.640 --> 0:42:01.680 mine that had loan be his office, and I said, 0:42:02.040 --> 0:42:04.360 you know, can I come into your office? And I 0:42:04.480 --> 0:42:07.600 needed a place to work, and Malcolm McLaren was upstairs, 0:42:07.640 --> 0:42:10.520 so I'd go upstairs and say, uh, Malcolm, I've been 0:42:10.560 --> 0:42:12.200 reading in the papers and no one will book the 0:42:12.200 --> 0:42:14.440 sex Pistols. But you know, I called a friend of 0:42:14.480 --> 0:42:16.719 mine at the Marquee Club and he'll book the sex 0:42:16.760 --> 0:42:20.920 bistess Um. Sorry, miss, I'm sorry, we can't do it. 0:42:21.360 --> 0:42:24.960 We're the pistols are busy that day. So I'd go 0:42:25.080 --> 0:42:27.160 back downstairs. I called the Marquee Club. I said, look, 0:42:27.200 --> 0:42:31.000 you know, give me another day. So three or four 0:42:31.080 --> 0:42:33.480 times I did this, and third, four or fourth time 0:42:33.480 --> 0:42:35.520 I went up to Malcolm. I said, okay, I got 0:42:35.640 --> 0:42:38.160 like three more shows and could you do any of these? 0:42:39.120 --> 0:42:41.800 Finally he jumps up and starts screaming at me, don't 0:42:41.840 --> 0:42:45.040 you get it? I get more pressed, saying they can't 0:42:45.120 --> 0:42:48.000 get gigs, that you're screwing up my whole rock, get 0:42:48.080 --> 0:42:51.680 the funk out of my office. So I'm kind of 0:42:51.760 --> 0:42:54.799 like stunned. I mean, but the papers saying you can't. 0:42:54.880 --> 0:42:56.839 No one will book the group. I just booked them, 0:42:57.920 --> 0:43:01.040 and I'm walking out. I had a call from a 0:43:01.880 --> 0:43:05.400 promoter in Holland saying I'll book the sex Pistols. So 0:43:05.520 --> 0:43:07.320 as I'm walking out, and I said, okay, Malco, I 0:43:07.360 --> 0:43:10.400 get it, Okay, but I do have a gig in Holland. 0:43:10.560 --> 0:43:12.799 I don't know if you'd be interested in that. He's, oh, hug, 0:43:12.880 --> 0:43:17.560 I'll do that. I said, oh, okay, well it's so 0:43:18.560 --> 0:43:20.640 I'll do Holland. He says, but I can't go, so 0:43:20.719 --> 0:43:24.200 you don't have to take the group. So I I 0:43:24.320 --> 0:43:26.400 take the sex Pistols. I do the first shows in 0:43:26.640 --> 0:43:30.640 out of England in Holland at the place called the Paradisoh, 0:43:31.360 --> 0:43:34.399 and uh I go off with Johnny Rotten and the gang. 0:43:34.960 --> 0:43:38.160 This is before sid Vicius joined the group, and uh 0:43:39.360 --> 0:43:40.920 I go off of the sex Pistols, which she, of 0:43:40.960 --> 0:43:43.080 course gave me a great credibility with all the punks. 0:43:43.160 --> 0:43:45.959 Next thing I know, Billy Idol and all these punk 0:43:46.000 --> 0:43:47.799 bands are knocking at the door saying, well, could your 0:43:47.800 --> 0:43:50.560 book shows for us? You know, So before I knew it, 0:43:50.719 --> 0:43:53.680 all of a sudden, I was the guy you went 0:43:53.760 --> 0:43:55.560 to if you wanted to book a show for a 0:43:55.600 --> 0:43:59.760 punt group. So Susie and the Batshees and Billie Idols 0:44:00.080 --> 0:44:01.960 was a band called Generation X at the time. And 0:44:02.840 --> 0:44:05.360 then it was a magazine called Sniffing Glue, which was 0:44:05.440 --> 0:44:07.680 a run by a guy named Mark Perry. And he 0:44:07.760 --> 0:44:10.480 comes into the office to do an interview with when 0:44:10.560 --> 0:44:13.720 one of the bands, and nextly I know, he's moved 0:44:13.760 --> 0:44:16.960 into the office, so all of us. Before I knew it, 0:44:17.480 --> 0:44:19.800 my office was Sniffing Glues office, And of course that 0:44:19.880 --> 0:44:22.000 meant all the punt groups came to came there. And 0:44:22.360 --> 0:44:25.400 next thing I know, I'm in the punt world, you know, 0:44:26.160 --> 0:44:29.120 which was fine. Are you a manager, you a promoter? 0:44:29.719 --> 0:44:32.160 What's your rong? A bit of everything? You know, with 0:44:32.800 --> 0:44:35.400 with some some I'm managing and some I'm a promoter 0:44:35.560 --> 0:44:37.560 and some I'm a you know. And then I had 0:44:37.680 --> 0:44:41.040 friends in New York. I called an old manager friend 0:44:41.080 --> 0:44:43.200 of mine who was a publicist that I'd used with 0:44:43.320 --> 0:44:46.880 Wishfune and Climax called Jane Friedman, who was working with 0:44:46.920 --> 0:44:51.520 Patti Smith and John Kale and and UH Television. And 0:44:51.640 --> 0:44:54.600 I called her and said, Uh, You've got some mats 0:44:54.680 --> 0:44:57.000 over there that might be interesting in England. You know, 0:44:57.160 --> 0:44:59.719 I think I can get some shows for them. So 0:45:00.280 --> 0:45:03.720 so I brought Blondie and Television and tour them in England, 0:45:04.520 --> 0:45:07.400 and John Kale got him into England and UH had 0:45:07.480 --> 0:45:09.920 him produced Squeeze, who I was who had just signed 0:45:09.920 --> 0:45:13.440 for management, and I got him to work with the Police, 0:45:13.520 --> 0:45:15.640 but they didn't get on at all, so then that 0:45:15.719 --> 0:45:19.120 didn't work. But basically, before I knew it, I was 0:45:19.400 --> 0:45:22.279 I was becoming the kind of the main hon show 0:45:22.360 --> 0:45:25.960 in the punk world in England. So I started a 0:45:26.080 --> 0:45:29.200 label with Mark Perry called Step Forward Records, and UH 0:45:30.520 --> 0:45:33.480 I had Squeeze on Deptford Fund City Records and Stewart, 0:45:33.560 --> 0:45:37.200 my brother Stewart and Wayne County, the Electric Chairs and 0:45:37.680 --> 0:45:41.640 different bands on Illegal records. And I was in the 0:45:42.040 --> 0:45:45.800 punk world doing independent records and that's really how the 0:45:45.800 --> 0:45:49.200 Police got going. So how did that work out financially 0:45:49.320 --> 0:45:52.680 for you? Well, because you could make a record for 0:45:53.120 --> 0:45:56.120 eighty pounds, you know, and then I could I'd get 0:45:56.160 --> 0:45:57.839 in my car and I drive to a record store 0:45:57.920 --> 0:46:00.279 and they'd buy the records. You know, they give me 0:46:00.360 --> 0:46:02.840 the cash right there, you know. So so I was 0:46:02.960 --> 0:46:05.440 literally in the record business where not only was I 0:46:05.800 --> 0:46:07.839 in the studio making the record, I would then take 0:46:08.600 --> 0:46:11.359 the tapes to the master room to get the master done, 0:46:11.719 --> 0:46:13.640 and then to the plate maker to make the plate, 0:46:14.200 --> 0:46:16.320 and then the label maker to get the label and 0:46:16.400 --> 0:46:18.239 the sleep you know. So I was doing the lot, 0:46:18.840 --> 0:46:21.120 but you could make enough that they would pay for 0:46:21.160 --> 0:46:23.719 themselves because punks didn't really know who was who at 0:46:23.760 --> 0:46:26.399 the time, so the records either to the record store, 0:46:26.440 --> 0:46:27.960 so they would kind of you go into the store 0:46:27.960 --> 0:46:30.319 and say, well, here's my latest release, and they'd buy 0:46:30.400 --> 0:46:33.520 five boxes, you know. So it was like, well that's great. 0:46:33.719 --> 0:46:35.480 You know. Well it was great for about four or 0:46:35.520 --> 0:46:37.719 five months, and then finally you'd walk in and I'd say, well, 0:46:37.760 --> 0:46:39.600 here's my lass and said, okay, let me have a listen. 0:46:39.920 --> 0:46:42.480 How many how many fans have they got? Whoops? The 0:46:42.560 --> 0:46:44.759 bubble at burst? You know, but it was enough to 0:46:44.800 --> 0:46:47.560 get going, you know, did that carry you through to 0:46:47.680 --> 0:46:51.839 the police. Yeah, it carried me through where we were. 0:46:51.960 --> 0:46:57.520 We were handling the cramps and and and uh the 0:46:57.719 --> 0:47:01.000 fall and Sham sixty nine and see Court, all these 0:47:01.040 --> 0:47:04.239 different kind of bands. Uh, So we were sort of 0:47:04.320 --> 0:47:07.239 buzzing around. It was all sort of small time. But 0:47:07.360 --> 0:47:09.480 in in London, you know that you could be kind 0:47:09.520 --> 0:47:12.400 of small time and be successful, you know. But with 0:47:12.520 --> 0:47:15.120 the police, you know, nobody cared. And I found the 0:47:15.200 --> 0:47:17.560 studio or a friend of mine found a studio actually, 0:47:18.040 --> 0:47:20.640 and I could record the full album for a thousand pounds, 0:47:21.560 --> 0:47:25.440 which you know today would be worth five six thou dollars. 0:47:25.800 --> 0:47:27.960 So if we record the first Polate, which meant you know, 0:47:28.320 --> 0:47:30.040 that's why I could offer it for free, you know, 0:47:30.719 --> 0:47:32.560 because it really didn't cost very much. If it had 0:47:32.600 --> 0:47:35.120 been a two hund three hundred thousand dollar deal, well, 0:47:35.160 --> 0:47:36.880 of course, you know you needed money to do that, 0:47:37.040 --> 0:47:39.920 but the fact is that nobody needed money. In those days, 0:47:40.000 --> 0:47:43.040 you could record for very little. Nobody was looking. You know, 0:47:43.239 --> 0:47:45.160 a lot of the bands could hardly play, you know, 0:47:45.640 --> 0:47:48.239 I don't when I first saw the Clash, I wasn't 0:47:48.239 --> 0:47:50.400 sure they knew that those things at the top of 0:47:50.440 --> 0:47:54.640 the guitar were for tuning the strings. You know, okay, 0:47:54.920 --> 0:47:58.000 but going to the police. What's it like working with 0:47:58.160 --> 0:48:04.040 your brother? Well, I guess in some ways it was strange, 0:48:04.120 --> 0:48:06.279 but in some ways, you know, I'd give him his 0:48:06.360 --> 0:48:11.000 first job, you know, which was one as a tour 0:48:11.080 --> 0:48:14.600 manager for Joan Armor Trading. He had just gotten out 0:48:14.640 --> 0:48:16.759 of college, and I said, look, I've just taken on 0:48:16.880 --> 0:48:19.160 this act. Would you be the tour manager? And off 0:48:19.200 --> 0:48:22.239 he goes to America with Joan Armor Trading, and then 0:48:22.320 --> 0:48:24.800 later he comes. When he comes back, I had just 0:48:24.880 --> 0:48:28.120 signed up a violin player by the name of Daryl 0:48:28.160 --> 0:48:30.759 Way who had a group called Curved Air, and they 0:48:30.800 --> 0:48:33.359 were looking for a drummer. And cut a long story short, 0:48:33.560 --> 0:48:35.520 you know, he Darrell figured well, as Stewart's in the 0:48:35.600 --> 0:48:39.239 band and he's Miles's brother, Myles will probably pay more 0:48:39.280 --> 0:48:42.239 attention to it. So Stewart gets a gig and Curved Air, 0:48:43.160 --> 0:48:45.839 and Curved Air goes out and it is reasonably successful. Well, 0:48:45.840 --> 0:48:48.800 they were another casualty of the big fatal tour I 0:48:48.880 --> 0:48:51.000 did in Europe, you know, the Star Treking tour, which 0:48:51.400 --> 0:48:54.600 was a disaster and put me near bankruptcy. So that's 0:48:54.640 --> 0:48:57.760 when Stewart decided that you know, all this high falutant 0:48:57.800 --> 0:49:00.320 bands with lots of equipment and Rhodies and knows what. 0:49:00.960 --> 0:49:03.560 Let's strip it all down to the simplest possible thing. 0:49:03.680 --> 0:49:05.360 And that's when he came up with the idea of 0:49:05.440 --> 0:49:09.320 three people and one roadie and very little equipment like 0:49:09.480 --> 0:49:11.799 all the punks basically, which meant that for a guy 0:49:11.880 --> 0:49:14.719 like me who had no money, you know, you could 0:49:14.719 --> 0:49:17.600 actually do And they were not precious about having to 0:49:17.640 --> 0:49:20.520 be in big famous studios or whatever else. So what 0:49:20.680 --> 0:49:23.040 I said, I can record your album for a thousand pounds. 0:49:23.760 --> 0:49:26.160 They were gaged. They had nothing to lose. And then 0:49:26.960 --> 0:49:32.120 what comes first? Urga music War I r S. I 0:49:32.320 --> 0:49:35.359 r S came first because when I when I got 0:49:35.440 --> 0:49:38.799 to England with the police and they started happening, Um, 0:49:40.040 --> 0:49:41.879 I had a lot of bands back in England were saying, 0:49:41.880 --> 0:49:44.080 well what about us, you know, we we want to 0:49:44.120 --> 0:49:46.759 have a little shot in America too, you know. So 0:49:46.920 --> 0:49:50.719 I figured that I needed to find a way to 0:49:50.800 --> 0:49:52.640 get their records out in America. I mean, I was 0:49:52.719 --> 0:49:55.640 bringing them in imports and selling them some of the 0:49:55.680 --> 0:49:58.640 imports stores, but that really wasn't satisfying any of the acts. 0:49:58.719 --> 0:50:02.319 So so I went to Jerry Moss and I said, well, 0:50:02.520 --> 0:50:04.880 I figured A and M is already sort of on 0:50:05.120 --> 0:50:06.960 side in a sense. I mean they were they were 0:50:07.040 --> 0:50:09.680 sort of fans in a way. And and since the 0:50:09.680 --> 0:50:12.839 police didn't cost him a lot of money, and uh, 0:50:13.719 --> 0:50:15.759 they kind of figured I was onto something, but they 0:50:15.800 --> 0:50:18.680 didn't know quite what yet. So I went into Jerry 0:50:18.760 --> 0:50:20.359 Moss and I said, I'll tell you what. I've got 0:50:20.440 --> 0:50:23.320 these bands in England, and I'm gonna make you the 0:50:23.400 --> 0:50:26.120 same kind of deal I made for the police in 0:50:26.160 --> 0:50:30.239 the beginning. I don't need your money. I just need 0:50:30.280 --> 0:50:32.879 you to put the records out. So I'm gonna give 0:50:32.920 --> 0:50:34.920 you the records for free and you give me a 0:50:35.040 --> 0:50:38.239 label unless your own sales people decide, you know, how 0:50:38.320 --> 0:50:41.040 many they're gonna press up. Let them vet the thing. 0:50:41.080 --> 0:50:43.279 I mean, it's down to you not you know, so 0:50:43.360 --> 0:50:48.600 there's no risk. And uh he said, okay, sounds fair enough. 0:50:48.840 --> 0:50:51.759 Let me hear the records. I said, ah, I said, 0:50:51.800 --> 0:50:55.000 that's that's that's the only CAVEAT said, you can't hear 0:50:55.040 --> 0:50:57.080 the music. I said, you have to put out whatever 0:50:57.120 --> 0:50:59.799 I give you, But your own sales people can tell 0:50:59.840 --> 0:51:01.839 you how many should press up. You know, if they 0:51:01.840 --> 0:51:05.479 want to press up five, no problem, but you can't 0:51:05.520 --> 0:51:07.399 listen to music. Because I knew if he heard the music, 0:51:07.480 --> 0:51:09.520 if he heard the buzz Cox and he heard Chelsea 0:51:09.680 --> 0:51:13.760 and he heard he would say no, so lo and behold. 0:51:13.960 --> 0:51:16.399 He said, okay, I'll give me the deal. And then 0:51:16.440 --> 0:51:18.680 I went out and signed the buzz Cox. The good 0:51:18.760 --> 0:51:22.839 news was the bands like the buzz Cox and later 0:51:22.960 --> 0:51:24.279 the you know, a lot of the lot of the 0:51:24.320 --> 0:51:27.360 punk bands could not get deals in America. So if 0:51:27.400 --> 0:51:29.120 somebody came along to him and said, look, i'll put 0:51:29.160 --> 0:51:31.200 your record out in America, but I can't pay your money. 0:51:31.719 --> 0:51:34.440 I'll give you a good royalty, a lot of them said, okay, 0:51:34.520 --> 0:51:36.520 that sounds good to me. So I was signing up 0:51:36.560 --> 0:51:41.440 bands for next to nothing, and I didn't need a 0:51:41.480 --> 0:51:43.000 lot and the police were beginning to make a little 0:51:43.000 --> 0:51:44.440 bit of money at this time, so I didn't need 0:51:44.480 --> 0:51:47.520 a lot of money to launch a label. And uh, 0:51:47.719 --> 0:51:50.319 you know, the Cramps had a had songs they had 0:51:50.320 --> 0:51:53.760 already recorded. The buzz Cox. I picked up the record 0:51:53.840 --> 0:51:57.160 that had already been recorded in England. Um, and I 0:51:57.320 --> 0:51:59.040 kind of went down the list and picked up bands 0:51:59.080 --> 0:52:01.760 that nobody else was interested in. They couldn't get deals 0:52:01.800 --> 0:52:04.520 in America and they ain't M gave me a label 0:52:05.560 --> 0:52:08.719 and my first employee. As another sort of example is 0:52:09.040 --> 0:52:14.560 my first employee was somebody that had just gotten fired 0:52:14.640 --> 0:52:17.320 actually from the A and M College department. And I 0:52:17.400 --> 0:52:19.399 knew I couldn't afford any money, so I said, I'll 0:52:19.400 --> 0:52:22.320 tell you what. I'll make you vice president of the label, 0:52:22.920 --> 0:52:24.719 which for a college kate it was like a big deal. 0:52:25.600 --> 0:52:27.200 But I can only pay you a hundred bucks a week. 0:52:28.360 --> 0:52:30.560 I figured all his friends would think he was crazy, 0:52:30.680 --> 0:52:32.560 but he didn't and he ended up becoming a big, 0:52:32.840 --> 0:52:36.640 big deal and U record business. So who was it 0:52:36.719 --> 0:52:38.759 was a guy named Jay bo Berg, you know. But 0:52:39.480 --> 0:52:42.080 it was really a matter of making things so cheap 0:52:42.200 --> 0:52:43.960 that the answer had to be yes. I mean, that 0:52:44.080 --> 0:52:45.960 was part of my sales pitch was, look, if you 0:52:46.040 --> 0:52:49.759 make the answer an easy yes, you're likely to get it. Yes. 0:52:50.640 --> 0:52:52.440 If if Jay had said to me, well, I need 0:52:52.520 --> 0:52:55.040 fifty tho dollars a year salary or I'm not doing it, 0:52:55.080 --> 0:52:56.480 I would have said, well, hell were you know, I'm 0:52:56.520 --> 0:52:58.960 not hiring you. You know, if Jerry, if if I 0:52:59.000 --> 0:53:00.640 had gone to Jerry Moss and said, look, I got 0:53:00.680 --> 0:53:03.480 all these acts in England and I need a hundred 0:53:03.480 --> 0:53:05.279 thousand dollars to launch a label. He was said, get 0:53:05.320 --> 0:53:07.440 the funk out of my office. You know, if I'd 0:53:07.440 --> 0:53:09.560 gone into the A and M guy in England and said, look, 0:53:09.600 --> 0:53:11.239 I got this big, great band, the Police, but I 0:53:11.320 --> 0:53:13.719 need X, you know, they would have said, sorry, mate, 0:53:13.960 --> 0:53:16.520 no deal. You know, so I I'm a lot of 0:53:16.600 --> 0:53:18.959 the best deals I ever made were for no money 0:53:19.040 --> 0:53:21.759 up front. But that opened the door. It made it 0:53:21.880 --> 0:53:26.320 easy for somebody to say yes. And what were the 0:53:26.440 --> 0:53:28.680 first records that got the notice of A and M 0:53:28.880 --> 0:53:31.200 that were on I R S. Well, actually, after the 0:53:31.280 --> 0:53:33.920 first year you would have thought, yeah. I mean, the 0:53:33.960 --> 0:53:36.880 bus Cocks did twenty five thousand albums, which made actually 0:53:36.960 --> 0:53:38.600 made a profit for A and M. You know, not 0:53:38.760 --> 0:53:40.840 a lot, but at least it was a profit. You know, 0:53:42.320 --> 0:53:44.440 the Craft sold a bit, and uh, the Wall of 0:53:44.520 --> 0:53:47.200 Voodoo and whatever, you know, but none of them are 0:53:47.239 --> 0:53:49.680 really big hits of any course. So Jerry Moss calls 0:53:49.719 --> 0:53:53.160 me into his office to Miles, sorry to tell you this, 0:53:53.320 --> 0:53:55.200 but let's close the label. You haven't had a hit. 0:53:55.239 --> 0:53:57.680 You put out eight records and they've all nobody. They 0:53:57.719 --> 0:54:02.680 haven't any hits. I saidn't been Jerry, Uh, did you 0:54:02.800 --> 0:54:05.040 make money out of I RS of the first year? 0:54:05.120 --> 0:54:07.480 He said yeah, well but not a lot, you know. 0:54:07.840 --> 0:54:11.080 I said, yeah, but you made a property right He said, yes, 0:54:11.200 --> 0:54:13.920 that's true. I said, how many deals have you ever 0:54:14.000 --> 0:54:16.160 done in your career in the music business? Unless you 0:54:16.160 --> 0:54:18.040 remember this is a guy that had the Carpenters and 0:54:18.360 --> 0:54:21.640 Peter Frampton and huge list of acts, one of the 0:54:21.680 --> 0:54:24.759 most respected labels in America. I said, how many deals 0:54:24.840 --> 0:54:27.080 have you ever done in your career in which the 0:54:27.160 --> 0:54:29.200 first year you made money on the on the deal? 0:54:30.000 --> 0:54:32.759 He said, well, actually probably none. I said yes, but 0:54:32.880 --> 0:54:35.160 you made money on my deal, didn't you. He said yeah, 0:54:35.200 --> 0:54:37.239 But now I said yes, And I said, let me 0:54:37.280 --> 0:54:40.359 ask you another question. I said, how many records does 0:54:40.440 --> 0:54:43.320 the normal acts have before they really break big and 0:54:43.600 --> 0:54:46.160 become a major act. He said, well, it's usually the 0:54:46.239 --> 0:54:50.080 third album. And I said, well, I put out eight records. Yes, 0:54:50.440 --> 0:54:53.399 but everyone was the first album of the act. None 0:54:53.400 --> 0:54:56.399 of those acts have got the album three. He said, yeah, 0:54:56.480 --> 0:55:00.200 you're right. Okay, I'll give you another year, so I 0:55:00.400 --> 0:55:02.920 r S carried on for another year. At the end 0:55:02.960 --> 0:55:07.480 of that year, we signed The Go Goes and shortly thereafter, 0:55:08.239 --> 0:55:11.080 The Go Goes went the number one in the US charts, 0:55:11.600 --> 0:55:15.120 the first girl group to ever have a number one 0:55:15.160 --> 0:55:17.840 album in America where they played the music themselves and 0:55:17.960 --> 0:55:21.920 wrote all the songs. So it was our first number one. 0:55:22.000 --> 0:55:24.200 It was the biggest album of the year. It was 0:55:24.280 --> 0:55:29.279 a momentous event. Actually in Showtime just had a documentary 0:55:29.280 --> 0:55:31.239 at on the Go Goes actually, which kind of goes 0:55:31.280 --> 0:55:36.120 through the the the importance of that record. But the 0:55:36.200 --> 0:55:38.239 funny thing about The Go Gos was, I was the 0:55:38.400 --> 0:55:42.640 only person at any of the shows willing to sign 0:55:42.760 --> 0:55:46.680 this group. And was it directly done by you? Yeah? 0:55:46.880 --> 0:55:50.520 I I signed him, And uh it was not. I 0:55:50.560 --> 0:55:52.880 mean there was money involved, but it was not not 0:55:53.000 --> 0:55:55.160 a lot. I mean I couldn't have afforded the major 0:55:55.280 --> 0:55:58.759 deals that people were doing, you know. So they had 0:55:58.800 --> 0:56:00.839 to be reasonable because they had there was no place 0:56:00.880 --> 0:56:05.040 else to go. Their manager had was was had had 0:56:05.760 --> 0:56:07.400 come and got to deal with me, and I said, look, 0:56:07.400 --> 0:56:09.560 I want to sign the group. She went back to 0:56:09.719 --> 0:56:12.800 the only other label that had registered you know what 0:56:13.040 --> 0:56:15.480 looked like might be interested, which was a Lecture Records, 0:56:15.520 --> 0:56:18.480 and Elector said, no, we're not signing girl groups. So 0:56:18.680 --> 0:56:20.320 she had no place to go. She came back to 0:56:20.360 --> 0:56:23.800 me and said, okay, we'll sign with you. And I 0:56:23.920 --> 0:56:26.600 went in and negotiated the deal and it was, you know, 0:56:28.320 --> 0:56:30.279 more than I wanted to spend, but a lot less 0:56:30.280 --> 0:56:33.520 than they thought they were deserved. And uh, I signed 0:56:33.600 --> 0:56:37.080 the group, and uh, I mean to me, you know, 0:56:37.360 --> 0:56:41.480 five girls who sang, who played well and had energy 0:56:41.680 --> 0:56:44.719 and were enthusiastic, and that just seemed like a great 0:56:44.800 --> 0:56:47.040 marketing think to me, you know, and how bad could 0:56:47.080 --> 0:56:49.239 it be? Of course, I had no idea the album 0:56:49.320 --> 0:56:51.600 go to number one, you know. I figured, you know, 0:56:51.719 --> 0:56:54.400 top forty be good, you know, but it just seemed 0:56:54.400 --> 0:56:57.480 to me a winner. But all the other labels went 0:56:57.560 --> 0:56:59.680 by the rules. They said, well, there's never been a 0:56:59.760 --> 0:57:01.840 girl group that had a big hit record, so we 0:57:01.920 --> 0:57:04.600 don't want to side a girl group then never even 0:57:04.640 --> 0:57:07.759 heard the music. And that was sort of how I 0:57:08.000 --> 0:57:09.920 built I r S. I. I went with what I 0:57:10.040 --> 0:57:13.160 listened to, and I thought, you know, that's good, I'll 0:57:13.200 --> 0:57:16.840 sign it. And who decided that Richard Gonnerer would produce 0:57:16.920 --> 0:57:20.400 that record. I decided that I had met Richard when 0:57:20.440 --> 0:57:23.920 he was producing the clim X Blues band, and he 0:57:24.040 --> 0:57:26.680 did the Blondie album, which I toured in England. So 0:57:26.760 --> 0:57:30.000 I had known Richard from the Sire Records days, and 0:57:30.200 --> 0:57:34.960 I knew he was unlike the average producer in that 0:57:36.160 --> 0:57:38.640 he was kind of new school and that he had 0:57:38.720 --> 0:57:42.200 just done Blondie. But he was also a songwriter. He 0:57:42.360 --> 0:57:45.320 he his his career started as a songwriter, so I 0:57:45.400 --> 0:57:48.120 knew he knew the mechanics of a hit song. And 0:57:48.200 --> 0:57:50.640 I felt that Go Go has had songs, you know, 0:57:51.600 --> 0:57:54.200 and he just seemed to be the right sensibility for me. 0:57:55.440 --> 0:57:57.920 And uh. I talked him into doing it at a 0:57:58.000 --> 0:58:02.720 price much us and he would normally get. But that's 0:58:02.720 --> 0:58:04.720 all I had. Really, I didn't have the money, you know. 0:58:04.840 --> 0:58:07.160 I said, Richard, can you do the album for this price? 0:58:07.240 --> 0:58:10.560 And he wasn't sure, and I said, well, let me 0:58:10.720 --> 0:58:12.720 send you the group and I think you're gonna like him, 0:58:12.760 --> 0:58:15.440 you know. And he did and uh, and he recorded them, 0:58:15.720 --> 0:58:17.480 but of course he went over budget, and he went 0:58:17.520 --> 0:58:22.480 about seven thousand dollars over budget. Calls me and says Miles, uh, uh, 0:58:22.920 --> 0:58:25.000 I'm over budget seven thousand. I need you to send 0:58:25.040 --> 0:58:26.600 me the money. And I said, Richard, I'm sorry, I 0:58:26.640 --> 0:58:30.560 don't have the money. And uh, I said, I said, 0:58:30.560 --> 0:58:32.760 you better hope the record sells, because that's the only 0:58:32.760 --> 0:58:36.800 way you're gonna get your money back. So luckily for him, 0:58:36.880 --> 0:58:45.720 the record sold okay. And then how does urga music 0:58:45.800 --> 0:58:48.720 were the movie come to be? Well, I was at 0:58:48.760 --> 0:58:53.680 the time becoming the I guess I R S and 0:58:53.880 --> 0:58:56.440 the Police, and we were sort of at the bandwagon 0:58:56.520 --> 0:58:58.760 of the you know, at the front of the vanguard 0:58:58.880 --> 0:59:01.959 of the whole new music scene. So when Michael White, 0:59:02.040 --> 0:59:06.000 the producer, had this idea about doing a movie, he 0:59:06.160 --> 0:59:08.280 called me up and said, would you be interested in 0:59:08.680 --> 0:59:11.280 h helping me produce this movie. I want to make 0:59:11.320 --> 0:59:13.720 a movie about all these great, fun little groups that 0:59:13.760 --> 0:59:16.080 are going on around the world, and it's just gonna 0:59:16.080 --> 0:59:18.200 be a movie about you know, we just fold each 0:59:18.200 --> 0:59:20.160 of the groups. There's no real storyline or whatever. And 0:59:20.240 --> 0:59:23.240 I said, well sure. You know, for me, it was 0:59:23.280 --> 0:59:26.720 another way I was figuring, you know, I want to 0:59:26.760 --> 0:59:29.240 get exposure for these people, you know, because the radio 0:59:29.360 --> 0:59:32.360 was still not totally on board yet, you know, and TV, 0:59:32.680 --> 0:59:36.680 MTV hadn't started yet, and you know, anyway we could 0:59:36.720 --> 0:59:39.360 get exposure to me was hey, if you if you 0:59:39.480 --> 0:59:42.080 if you'll get the exposure, Hey, I'm your guy, you know, 0:59:42.520 --> 0:59:44.520 so I said, sure, I'll help you. And of course 0:59:44.640 --> 0:59:48.160 I roped in the Police and all the bands I 0:59:48.320 --> 0:59:50.760 was working with, plus all sorts of other bands, you know, 0:59:50.880 --> 0:59:53.680 to give it credibility. We got as many bands as 0:59:53.720 --> 0:59:59.480 we could. So ERG was basically Michael White had the idea, 0:59:59.680 --> 1:00:01.800 and he got the money together, and I got the 1:00:01.880 --> 1:00:06.200 bands together, and you got the record. Yeah. I got 1:00:06.280 --> 1:00:08.440 A and M to put the record out. I didn't. 1:00:08.880 --> 1:00:10.600 It became an A and M record. I mean again, 1:00:10.680 --> 1:00:13.120 it was there was some money involved, and at the 1:00:13.160 --> 1:00:15.600 time I didn't have any money, so I gave it 1:00:15.680 --> 1:00:17.920 to A and M. Let's go back to the police. 1:00:18.320 --> 1:00:21.920 Police are relatively unique in that every album was bigger 1:00:22.000 --> 1:00:25.800 than the previous one, and they were all successful during 1:00:25.880 --> 1:00:28.160 this run. Did you ever go back to A and 1:00:28.320 --> 1:00:34.080 M and renegotiate? Uh? Yes? And no? Okay, first place, Uh, 1:00:34.320 --> 1:00:38.920 your first statement is incorrect. Okay. In America, okay, the 1:00:39.040 --> 1:00:42.720 first record went out and did very well. The second 1:00:42.800 --> 1:00:46.720 record was released in America and did three quarters of 1:00:46.840 --> 1:00:49.800 what the first one did, so it was not as successful. 1:00:50.800 --> 1:00:54.120 In England. The opposite happened. The first record was released 1:00:54.160 --> 1:00:57.520 in England and just almost disappeared without a trace. The 1:00:57.600 --> 1:01:01.240 second album went straight to number one and it was 1:01:01.520 --> 1:01:05.280 complete bedlam in England. Okay it was you know, we 1:01:05.360 --> 1:01:07.560 had three hit single, three number one hit singles in 1:01:07.640 --> 1:01:11.640 a row. So England and Europe was completely different to America. 1:01:12.080 --> 1:01:15.000 America was a slow build. It wasn't until the fifth 1:01:15.080 --> 1:01:16.960 album that the Police had a number one record in 1:01:17.040 --> 1:01:19.680 America and that was became the Synchronicity, and you know, 1:01:19.800 --> 1:01:22.320 that became the biggest album. But the second album was 1:01:22.400 --> 1:01:27.480 not not the biggest, uh. It was was about well, 1:01:27.480 --> 1:01:29.120 I think the first album went out did like half 1:01:29.120 --> 1:01:31.840 a million. Second album that, you know, three hundred thousand, 1:01:32.600 --> 1:01:35.320 you know, it wasn't it takes time to build America, 1:01:35.480 --> 1:01:39.440 you know, and but in England it was quick. The 1:01:39.520 --> 1:01:43.960 second album just went gang busters crazy, you know, and 1:01:44.040 --> 1:01:46.040 in Europe was saying the same a lot of around 1:01:46.080 --> 1:01:48.200 the world. So the police were really bigger around the world, 1:01:48.320 --> 1:01:51.240 faster than they were in America. So you had to 1:01:51.280 --> 1:01:53.240 have a different strategy in each part of the world, 1:01:53.280 --> 1:01:54.880 which is part of the reason why I went around 1:01:54.920 --> 1:01:57.520 the world with the police, because I knew that those 1:01:57.560 --> 1:02:02.160 photographs to do well in places like You're up Japan, Australia, 1:02:02.240 --> 1:02:05.040 whatever it is, it would help in America, but in 1:02:05.120 --> 1:02:08.120 America it's really you know, you're battling station by station 1:02:08.240 --> 1:02:10.680 by station by station. You know, as part of the 1:02:10.760 --> 1:02:14.320 problem of our system in America, you know there're how 1:02:14.360 --> 1:02:18.320 many national radio stations are there? You know, well, you 1:02:18.400 --> 1:02:21.240 know there aren't really you know, so it was a 1:02:21.280 --> 1:02:23.280 louder Okay, you could be big in Boston, but you'd 1:02:23.320 --> 1:02:27.800 be unknown in l A. You know. So America takes 1:02:27.840 --> 1:02:29.600 this time, whereas in England you get on the BBC 1:02:29.760 --> 1:02:32.240 and you've got the whole country day one, you know, 1:02:33.080 --> 1:02:35.720 so a lot of European countries in the same way. 1:02:35.840 --> 1:02:39.000 You know, you have one national station pretty much covers 1:02:39.040 --> 1:02:41.720 the country, whereas in America it's a it's a much 1:02:41.760 --> 1:02:46.320 slower building. Yeah, so what about renegotiating. Okay, as far 1:02:46.320 --> 1:02:51.160 as we renegotiated, but of course, um after the it 1:02:51.320 --> 1:02:54.560 wasn't until the second or third record though, well, actually 1:02:54.600 --> 1:02:57.520 the second record became huge in England. And I had 1:02:57.560 --> 1:02:59.560 a lawyer who was who was a very famous lawyer, 1:02:59.640 --> 1:03:04.000 caller Groupman, and he always figured, well, you know, his 1:03:04.120 --> 1:03:07.120 famous quote was, it's not about the money, It's about 1:03:07.160 --> 1:03:10.920 the money. So his view was, if you could renegotiate, 1:03:11.080 --> 1:03:14.520 go get the money. They albou the royalty, you know, 1:03:14.680 --> 1:03:19.680 just get the money. So it wasn't long before, you know, 1:03:19.840 --> 1:03:22.480 we went in and renegotiated, and I think we probably 1:03:22.520 --> 1:03:24.640 renegotiated on every album, you know, to get a bit 1:03:24.680 --> 1:03:27.640 more wealthy points. And sure we got higher royalty points 1:03:27.720 --> 1:03:29.680 and we got more money and all that, and the 1:03:29.760 --> 1:03:33.360 police did very well, you know. But often I think 1:03:33.480 --> 1:03:36.720 back and I think, well, what really is the smartest strategy, 1:03:36.840 --> 1:03:41.880 because there was an opposite strategy which I was uniquely 1:03:42.480 --> 1:03:45.160 aware of, and that was the R. E M strategy. 1:03:46.160 --> 1:03:50.800 I signed R E M for dollars because my brother 1:03:50.920 --> 1:03:53.360 Ian had met them and down he wasn't making Georgia 1:03:53.360 --> 1:03:55.800 and they were in Athens, Georgia, and he told me 1:03:55.840 --> 1:03:57.800 and he said, look, you gotta sign this group, you know, 1:03:57.920 --> 1:04:00.720 And so I signed him, you know, and they built 1:04:00.720 --> 1:04:04.360 a lot of fans in the in the company, and uh, 1:04:04.800 --> 1:04:08.560 every record did more than the last that correct. Next 1:04:08.600 --> 1:04:11.880 record was you know, seventy, next record was a hundred 1:04:11.880 --> 1:04:14.080 and fifty thousand, and they kept creeping up and every 1:04:14.120 --> 1:04:18.000 advance would go higher. And as we began to realize 1:04:18.080 --> 1:04:19.840 this was a group that was going places. You know, 1:04:20.200 --> 1:04:22.320 I would they call him in the office and speak 1:04:22.320 --> 1:04:24.720 to the manager and say, look, we'd like to give 1:04:24.760 --> 1:04:29.560 you more money and uh per record and increase your 1:04:29.640 --> 1:04:32.840 royalties and uh in return, you know it, give us 1:04:32.840 --> 1:04:34.439 a couple more records at the end of the deal. 1:04:35.760 --> 1:04:39.400 And their response was, well, look, we're fine. You know, 1:04:39.520 --> 1:04:43.320 we got enough money. We don't need anymore. We're happy 1:04:43.360 --> 1:04:45.720 with the deal as it is. So you know what, 1:04:45.960 --> 1:04:47.640 we'll just do the deal and we'll go through the 1:04:47.720 --> 1:04:50.920 contract and at the end of the deal, we'll come 1:04:50.960 --> 1:04:53.680 to you and say, well we're open now, and you know, 1:04:53.800 --> 1:04:55.560 we'll wait for an offer from you and from the 1:04:55.600 --> 1:04:58.480 open market, and we'll see what happens. He said, but 1:04:58.640 --> 1:05:00.920 you know, we love your company and you know we're 1:05:00.960 --> 1:05:03.240 open for anything. You know, but no, we don't need 1:05:03.560 --> 1:05:06.040 so I couldn't renegotiate. So the next record went out 1:05:06.080 --> 1:05:08.600 was bigger, and you know, we got to the last 1:05:08.680 --> 1:05:11.960 album and I'm thinking we're gonna lose r E M. 1:05:12.160 --> 1:05:15.880 You know, so of course trying to renegotiate. Look, we'll 1:05:15.920 --> 1:05:18.680 even give you, we'll back date the royalties, you know, 1:05:18.800 --> 1:05:22.400 we'll we'll give you back your masters. You know, No, 1:05:22.760 --> 1:05:26.160 we're fine, We're fine. We're fine. Meanwhile, like where is 1:05:26.240 --> 1:05:28.800 the police? Renegotiated every time, and then Sting when I 1:05:28.880 --> 1:05:31.960 was managing this thing, renegotiated his contract every time, and 1:05:32.840 --> 1:05:35.439 you know, he made more and more money. I made 1:05:35.480 --> 1:05:38.440 more money, you know. But then R A M go 1:05:38.560 --> 1:05:41.600 off and the deal's over, and they come to me 1:05:41.680 --> 1:05:43.920 and say, well, the deal's over. We love your you know, 1:05:44.040 --> 1:05:47.440 we love I RS. So we're going to the marketplace 1:05:47.560 --> 1:05:49.520 and you can make an offer like everybody else, and 1:05:49.600 --> 1:05:53.120 we're gonna go with the best offer. So the money 1:05:53.160 --> 1:05:54.560 went up and up, and you know, I got to 1:05:54.600 --> 1:05:56.360 a point it was three million, and it's like that 1:05:56.440 --> 1:05:57.760 was about as far as I could go. And I 1:05:57.800 --> 1:06:00.480 went to Jerry Moss and he said, well, I'll help you. 1:06:00.760 --> 1:06:03.760 I'll put up a couple of million, you know. And 1:06:05.800 --> 1:06:08.000 the group comes in and says, well, we've just been 1:06:08.040 --> 1:06:11.560 to Warner Brothers and they're offering more than that. And 1:06:11.720 --> 1:06:13.560 I went back to Jerry and it said, Jerry, can 1:06:13.600 --> 1:06:16.280 you we're gonna lose R. E M. Can you up 1:06:16.360 --> 1:06:19.160 the offer? And he said I could. We're at five million. 1:06:19.200 --> 1:06:20.760 I mean, we can't go more than that, you know, 1:06:21.520 --> 1:06:24.120 and they want they want their their masters back and said, 1:06:24.360 --> 1:06:27.360 I can't do that. So I brought the managers back 1:06:27.400 --> 1:06:30.120 in again. And they're very honorable guys. I have to 1:06:30.160 --> 1:06:33.640 admit they were really good people. And they said, look, Miles, 1:06:33.720 --> 1:06:36.480 we've just been back to Warner Brothers and here's what 1:06:36.600 --> 1:06:40.120 they just told us. And then here's here's the letter 1:06:40.240 --> 1:06:44.360 contract and they said, whatever Miles offers you will pay 1:06:44.400 --> 1:06:50.240 you double. And I said, guys, I looked at that 1:06:50.360 --> 1:06:54.160 paper with incredutibility. I looked at that thing, and I said, guys, 1:06:54.960 --> 1:06:59.200 here's my advice. Get out of my office right now, 1:07:00.160 --> 1:07:04.080 go straight to Warner Brothers. Signed that deal before they 1:07:04.240 --> 1:07:08.120 changed their mind. And I gotta say, that's the best 1:07:08.160 --> 1:07:13.680 deal iver Seed and guys, congratulations, I'm proud of and 1:07:14.160 --> 1:07:17.680 they left. They went to Warner Brothers and they signed 1:07:17.720 --> 1:07:21.480 the biggest record deal in history. And then again when 1:07:21.560 --> 1:07:24.200 that deal expired and all their rights returned and they 1:07:24.280 --> 1:07:27.120 resigned again. They made the biggest record deal in the 1:07:27.240 --> 1:07:29.640 history of the music business. And I have to say 1:07:30.160 --> 1:07:32.040 that now when I look back at it, and I say, 1:07:32.440 --> 1:07:36.040 the Alan grouping method of hitting him every renegotiate, every 1:07:36.080 --> 1:07:38.400 deal and up the money and whatever. Versus the R 1:07:38.480 --> 1:07:40.280 and D r M deal. R E M made more 1:07:40.320 --> 1:07:45.520 money than the police, a lot more because they ended 1:07:45.600 --> 1:07:49.960 up with total freedom to get all the rights of 1:07:50.080 --> 1:07:54.680 back to their masters, and it just ended up being 1:07:54.720 --> 1:07:57.600 a phenomenal deal. They actually did do it historically, the 1:07:57.600 --> 1:08:00.760 biggest record deal ever. Okay, as a manager, how much 1:08:00.760 --> 1:08:04.400 do you charge? Uh? In the case of the police, 1:08:04.480 --> 1:08:07.040 we were all on it together, so we we we 1:08:07.160 --> 1:08:10.720 split it four away, so everybody made and out of 1:08:11.720 --> 1:08:13.200 I gave part of it. I gave my I gave 1:08:14.240 --> 1:08:16.200 to a partner who was with the police every single 1:08:16.280 --> 1:08:21.200 day on the road, so I was making less. But 1:08:21.360 --> 1:08:26.599 the management commission was The management commissions historically go from 1:08:26.680 --> 1:08:32.040 fift Some managers take as much as and it really 1:08:32.080 --> 1:08:35.200 depends on what the manager's offering, and it depends on 1:08:35.600 --> 1:08:39.880 the negotiating position of the group, all sorts of things. Well, 1:08:39.920 --> 1:08:42.640 you've managed a lot of bands, do you commission the 1:08:43.360 --> 1:08:47.320 recording budget? Do you take from the net on the road? 1:08:47.439 --> 1:08:50.439 What kind of deals do you I think you can't 1:08:50.479 --> 1:08:53.320 really record from the recording budget because the band doesn't 1:08:53.360 --> 1:08:57.640 receive that. I re commissioned what they get. Okay, I 1:08:57.720 --> 1:09:03.240 don't commission um money that goes to recording studio whatever 1:09:04.680 --> 1:09:07.520 on the on the concerts. You know, I I commissioned 1:09:07.560 --> 1:09:10.479 the profit of the concerts, you know. Okay, do you 1:09:10.560 --> 1:09:14.920 still get paid on police records? Yes. And one of 1:09:15.080 --> 1:09:17.560 one of the things I was very precious about was 1:09:17.680 --> 1:09:23.160 to say, look, I am not into renting myself as 1:09:23.240 --> 1:09:27.040 a manager. If I'm gonna roll on my starta fleaves 1:09:27.080 --> 1:09:29.400 and fight for you guys, we're all in this together, 1:09:30.040 --> 1:09:33.040 so let's be in it all the way. I'm not 1:09:33.160 --> 1:09:35.519 gonna be simply working for you for five years and 1:09:35.560 --> 1:09:40.280 then I get nothing, Although nowadays some acts think that 1:09:40.400 --> 1:09:42.479 that's fair, you know. So if some act came to 1:09:42.600 --> 1:09:45.880 me and they were already successful so that I could 1:09:46.240 --> 1:09:47.960 bank the money, you know, and then it was like 1:09:48.080 --> 1:09:51.680 a no brainer I could. I could say, Okay, so 1:09:51.800 --> 1:09:55.559 you're gonna pay me. I'm gonna automatically make X million 1:09:55.640 --> 1:09:58.800 dollars a year, so okay, you know what, after five years, 1:09:59.160 --> 1:10:01.120 you're free to go on your your own. In that case, 1:10:01.160 --> 1:10:03.360 I would say okay, because there's no risk I'm gonna 1:10:03.400 --> 1:10:06.280 make money. I've heard of a manager saying well, okay, 1:10:06.320 --> 1:10:08.000 I'll manage an act and I would make it. You 1:10:08.080 --> 1:10:09.880 paid me a million dollars a year and I'll manage it. 1:10:10.680 --> 1:10:12.800 I'd say, that's not a bad management deal because you're 1:10:12.800 --> 1:10:14.760 making a million dollars a year and have you're only 1:10:14.800 --> 1:10:17.920 doing it for five years. Well okay, but the police 1:10:18.680 --> 1:10:22.080 nobody wanted the police. It was a pure risk. I 1:10:22.280 --> 1:10:25.559 invested in the first album. I paid for that first album. 1:10:25.880 --> 1:10:29.640 I paid for that first tour. Okay, so I invested. 1:10:30.920 --> 1:10:34.400 It's something which had almost everybody said it was a 1:10:34.479 --> 1:10:38.160 no hoper, but all four of us were in it together. 1:10:38.360 --> 1:10:40.800 So that was really why I kept my rot. Did 1:10:40.840 --> 1:10:43.800 you have paper with the band? Yeah. Eventually, after after 1:10:43.920 --> 1:10:46.080 we made the record deal and the record went out 1:10:46.200 --> 1:10:49.280 and started successful, we made we made a deal and 1:10:50.120 --> 1:10:51.680 that's when they said, well I have to, you know, 1:10:51.840 --> 1:10:54.760 have a partner. And I agreed. Actually out there was 1:10:54.800 --> 1:10:58.479 only fair. I mean, I've always been someone that agreed 1:10:58.640 --> 1:11:02.800 that you you've got somebody good working with, you give 1:11:02.880 --> 1:11:05.200 them a reward more than just a salary, which is 1:11:05.280 --> 1:11:08.560 why I gave a percentage of the record company to 1:11:08.760 --> 1:11:12.880 j Bowberg. I gave a percentage of Police. Most of 1:11:12.920 --> 1:11:16.200 the companies I've done business with, I've always given one 1:11:16.280 --> 1:11:17.920 of the key people in the company a piece of 1:11:18.000 --> 1:11:20.559 the action, so that they felt that it was more 1:11:20.640 --> 1:11:23.880 than just a job, that it was their like And 1:11:24.280 --> 1:11:26.160 that's always worked for me. I've never been afraid to 1:11:26.840 --> 1:11:31.599 give part of the you know, the business away. Now 1:11:31.720 --> 1:11:34.479 A and M was ultimately sold to Polygraham gobbled up 1:11:34.560 --> 1:11:37.360 becomes part of Universal. Have they ever approached you to 1:11:37.439 --> 1:11:40.600 buy out your royalty stream? Okay, they came to me 1:11:42.320 --> 1:11:44.000 when when the I R S here was coming to 1:11:44.080 --> 1:11:46.240 a close, Jerry called me in and said, look, would 1:11:46.240 --> 1:11:48.320 you be interested in selling the label? And I said, well, 1:11:48.360 --> 1:11:52.400 I'm not opposed to it, except that I'm not gonna 1:11:52.439 --> 1:11:56.439 just sell it. What I would do is will make 1:11:56.479 --> 1:11:59.120 a financial deal, but I want you to exchange I 1:11:59.280 --> 1:12:01.599 R S sharfs A and M shares, give me shares 1:12:01.640 --> 1:12:03.960 of A and M, so we're all in this together. 1:12:05.080 --> 1:12:09.040 And he agreed. He said that sounds like a reasonable deale. 1:12:09.280 --> 1:12:11.040 Of course, I wasn't expecting. I mean, A and M 1:12:11.080 --> 1:12:13.040 was a lot bigger label than I RS was, and 1:12:13.120 --> 1:12:15.160 I wasn't expecting to walk away with half the label. 1:12:15.240 --> 1:12:17.760 But you know, five ten percent of A and M 1:12:17.800 --> 1:12:20.600 would have been worth millions of dollars, you know. So 1:12:22.080 --> 1:12:24.840 a couple of weeks later, I go back and said, okay, um, 1:12:25.520 --> 1:12:27.800 you're ready to make an offer. So what's the offering is? Well, 1:12:27.840 --> 1:12:30.760 I can't actually give you shares because we're a sub 1:12:30.840 --> 1:12:33.960 chapter S corporation, and that means I can't give you 1:12:34.040 --> 1:12:35.880 shares in the company, but we're prepared to buy you 1:12:36.000 --> 1:12:39.120 and he and he pulled out some daughter figure which 1:12:39.240 --> 1:12:41.200 was really just not very interesting to me, and I 1:12:41.560 --> 1:12:45.439 got so angry I stormed out of the office. And uh. 1:12:45.600 --> 1:12:47.840 Of course, Jerry and I later became very good friends, 1:12:47.880 --> 1:12:50.479 and in some ways I wish I had figured some 1:12:50.560 --> 1:12:52.439 way to do a deal with him, because when we 1:12:52.520 --> 1:12:54.599 went to m C A was really not quite the same. 1:12:54.760 --> 1:12:57.599 And then we went to m I and whatever whatever. 1:12:57.720 --> 1:13:00.759 You know, we became the corporation and we really didn't 1:13:00.760 --> 1:13:03.120 want to become. But it was a lesson. I mean, 1:13:03.160 --> 1:13:05.040 I learned a lot of lessons along the way. You 1:13:05.120 --> 1:13:07.760 know what what the corporate world really is. You know, 1:13:08.120 --> 1:13:10.280 when IRA started and when the police started, we were 1:13:10.320 --> 1:13:12.679 flying by the seat of our pants. We had nothing 1:13:12.760 --> 1:13:15.960 to lose. Everything was cheap. I could be crazy. I 1:13:16.040 --> 1:13:18.960 could sign crazy acts, and I signed a lot of 1:13:19.000 --> 1:13:23.280 crazy acts, you know. Um, but they were ones where 1:13:23.320 --> 1:13:24.840 I could afford it, you know, and the ones that 1:13:24.960 --> 1:13:28.680 if if they didn't work, too bad, you know. But 1:13:28.760 --> 1:13:32.360 it was fun on the way, you know. Um. Whereas 1:13:32.400 --> 1:13:34.200 when you all of a sudden part of the corporation 1:13:34.320 --> 1:13:37.840 and they're talking millions of dollars and whatever, they want 1:13:37.880 --> 1:13:40.200 to see hit records, and they're not interested in whether 1:13:40.320 --> 1:13:42.439 you have an act that's cool or not. They're interested 1:13:42.439 --> 1:13:44.920 in whether you're selling records or not. And that's quite 1:13:44.960 --> 1:13:46.880 a jolt for someone like me, you know, to be 1:13:47.000 --> 1:13:50.840 thrown out of the world of doing something this hip 1:13:50.920 --> 1:13:54.560 and cool, and you know you're you're doing it for 1:13:54.680 --> 1:13:57.720 the for the love of the music, versus you have 1:13:57.920 --> 1:14:00.800 to make numbers or they're gonna fire, you know. So 1:14:01.800 --> 1:14:05.880 that's okay. So who owns the Masters of I RS today? Well, 1:14:05.960 --> 1:14:09.000 now it's all owned by Universal And how did that 1:14:09.080 --> 1:14:12.960 come to me? Well? Universal Body and M Universal Body, 1:14:13.040 --> 1:14:17.400 m C A UM Universal Body, am I. You know. 1:14:17.640 --> 1:14:20.360 So I ended up selling I R S E M 1:14:20.439 --> 1:14:24.600 I UM because we needed the money and E M 1:14:24.680 --> 1:14:27.519 I made us a pretty nice offer. And they were 1:14:27.560 --> 1:14:31.320 busy trying to build their their their business and I 1:14:31.439 --> 1:14:33.160 looked at it and said, well, you know, the business 1:14:33.200 --> 1:14:36.040 has changed. It's not as fun anymore. And you know, 1:14:36.320 --> 1:14:38.240 we've been at it long enough and about time that 1:14:38.320 --> 1:14:40.200 I made something because I never made anything out of 1:14:40.280 --> 1:14:44.479 virus at the beginning. You know, Um, I had staff 1:14:44.520 --> 1:14:47.000 that were getting paid, but I wasn't. You know, it 1:14:47.120 --> 1:14:48.880 was a labor of love basically, if I was making 1:14:48.920 --> 1:14:51.560 money managing the police in staying you know, so I 1:14:51.640 --> 1:14:54.200 never really thought about money. But when we sold the 1:14:54.200 --> 1:14:57.200 E M I, they ended up buying the label, and 1:14:57.280 --> 1:15:00.080 then of course Universal buy C M I. And they 1:15:00.120 --> 1:15:02.360 owned the Beatles. You know, they owned Frank Sinaga, they 1:15:02.439 --> 1:15:05.040 owned I R S, they owned the Police, they owned 1:15:05.040 --> 1:15:08.479 the lot. Okay, you're on both sides of it. You've 1:15:08.479 --> 1:15:12.840 been a manager, and you've also cut royalties, meaning you've 1:15:12.880 --> 1:15:17.719 paid royalties. Traditionally it's an opaque system and the labels 1:15:17.760 --> 1:15:20.160 don't pay a hundred cents on the dollar. What can 1:15:20.200 --> 1:15:22.320 you tell us about that, both in terms of what 1:15:22.479 --> 1:15:27.200 you paid and also trying to collect. Well, you know, 1:15:27.320 --> 1:15:31.000 there's like every single deal, there's two sides to it. 1:15:32.360 --> 1:15:36.000 I would say that since the record business, it's sort 1:15:36.040 --> 1:15:40.080 of like everybody says well, nine out of ten acts failed. Well, 1:15:40.760 --> 1:15:43.599 nine out of ten acts were financed by the record companies. 1:15:44.120 --> 1:15:46.160 So let's say the act fails and they got an 1:15:46.160 --> 1:15:49.599 advance of two hundred thousand dollars. Okay, So the record 1:15:49.680 --> 1:15:52.479 company gives the act two hundred thousand dollars, They spend 1:15:52.520 --> 1:15:54.600 a hundred thousand making the record, and they pocket a 1:15:54.680 --> 1:15:58.679 hundred thousand. Record goes out in bombs. Record label lost 1:15:58.720 --> 1:16:02.640 two hundred thousand dollars. The act made money for a 1:16:02.680 --> 1:16:05.679 short time, so the labeled was a loser in that deal. 1:16:07.080 --> 1:16:11.960 Now one out of that one out of ten succeeded. Well, 1:16:12.080 --> 1:16:15.160 from a business standpoint, the label is thinking, well, that 1:16:15.400 --> 1:16:18.400 one that succeeds has got to pay for all those losers. 1:16:19.479 --> 1:16:21.880 So obviously we can't pay a hunter. But you know, 1:16:21.960 --> 1:16:25.080 we can't pay like there was no losers because they 1:16:25.120 --> 1:16:27.040 don't know who's gonna be the winner and who's the loser. 1:16:27.720 --> 1:16:31.920 So in most record deals they have to figure that, Okay, 1:16:32.520 --> 1:16:35.320 we can pay a royalty to the act, or a 1:16:35.400 --> 1:16:38.519 fifteen percent royalty or attention, whatever the number is. Okay, 1:16:38.840 --> 1:16:41.400 But he gets up to about you. You're getting to 1:16:41.479 --> 1:16:44.479 the sort of upper reaches of the big superstar deals, 1:16:44.560 --> 1:16:48.720 you know. But then they've got to do marketing. They've 1:16:48.720 --> 1:16:51.519 gotta pay for the staff, they gotta pay for buying 1:16:51.760 --> 1:16:54.479 records onto the radio. All the amount of money that 1:16:54.560 --> 1:16:57.000 it costs to make a record happen. So I would 1:16:57.080 --> 1:17:01.439 argue that record labels in many cases, or in most cases, 1:17:01.560 --> 1:17:04.760 lose money on an act. Yes, they make money on 1:17:04.840 --> 1:17:07.920 the winning acts, and they do so because it helps 1:17:07.960 --> 1:17:10.519 pay for the loser acts. And I've known loser a 1:17:10.600 --> 1:17:12.960 big big winner acts that says, well, why should I 1:17:13.040 --> 1:17:15.680 pay for the losers? And I'd say, well, you know what, 1:17:15.800 --> 1:17:18.680 You're right, But then again, who was to know you 1:17:18.840 --> 1:17:20.920 were a winner? You could have just as easily been 1:17:21.000 --> 1:17:24.280 one of those losers. Let's assume you're a winner. And 1:17:24.400 --> 1:17:28.640 the contract says ex royalty. Traditionally labels don't pay a 1:17:28.760 --> 1:17:31.760 hundred cents on the dollar on that. Well, they don't 1:17:31.760 --> 1:17:33.679 pay a hundred cents on the dollar because they gotta 1:17:33.680 --> 1:17:36.240 pay for the pressing. No no, no, no no. When 1:17:36.280 --> 1:17:38.920 we get to the net, okay, and we look at 1:17:38.960 --> 1:17:43.679 the contract, it says, let's just assume teen percent royalty. 1:17:43.760 --> 1:17:45.960 The net net net is a million dollars. I should 1:17:45.960 --> 1:17:49.360 get a hundred thousand dollars. Okay, it seems like the 1:17:49.439 --> 1:17:53.160 record company doesn't pay that hundred thousand dollars. Hasn't that 1:17:53.280 --> 1:17:57.479 been your experience? It really depends on the company what 1:17:57.600 --> 1:17:59.720 the deal is going to be. I've never I've not 1:18:00.040 --> 1:18:02.640 had a problem with I mean, I didn't have a 1:18:02.680 --> 1:18:04.519 problem they and am they paid. We did. We did 1:18:04.560 --> 1:18:06.640 audits on labels, so we did find money, but we 1:18:06.680 --> 1:18:09.040 didn't find very much, and a lot most of it 1:18:09.120 --> 1:18:11.519 was accounting mistakes. Okay, there are there have been some 1:18:11.680 --> 1:18:14.120 labels have been been crooked, you know, And that's just 1:18:14.240 --> 1:18:16.639 the fact of life, you know. And and the reality 1:18:16.800 --> 1:18:19.439 is their accident crooked and they're labels that are crooked. 1:18:19.920 --> 1:18:23.880 And believe me, I've seen both. Okay. But when you 1:18:24.040 --> 1:18:26.959 look at the finances of the record business, you realize 1:18:27.000 --> 1:18:29.320 that a lot of money is thrown away, and a 1:18:29.360 --> 1:18:32.240 lot of it stupidly, to tell you the truth. Um. 1:18:32.760 --> 1:18:34.439 And that's the reason why a lot of the deals 1:18:34.439 --> 1:18:35.760 a lot as good as it should be for the 1:18:35.840 --> 1:18:39.200 winner acts because the labels are losing on the losers. 1:18:40.200 --> 1:18:42.599 They gotta make it on the winners. And a lot 1:18:42.640 --> 1:18:44.680 of the labels also, one of the things I learned 1:18:44.680 --> 1:18:47.559 when they got d M I is that a lot 1:18:47.600 --> 1:18:51.400 of the executive salaries are whopping salaries, you know, way 1:18:51.520 --> 1:18:54.799 higher than it should be. And that the the salaries 1:18:54.840 --> 1:18:56.880 of the executives, I mean, they're more interested in the 1:18:57.000 --> 1:19:00.080 shares and the salaries and there are you know, they 1:19:00.479 --> 1:19:02.519 they want to up their fees because they want to 1:19:02.520 --> 1:19:05.479 break some act. So they bury the loser acts. And 1:19:05.600 --> 1:19:08.439 they waved the flag saying, look I I signed so 1:19:08.600 --> 1:19:11.719 and so you know. So I have a mixed feeling about, 1:19:12.000 --> 1:19:14.280 you know, whether deals are fair or not. And I 1:19:14.320 --> 1:19:16.840 would have to say, having been on both sides of 1:19:16.880 --> 1:19:19.840 the deal, I've seen things that are unfair on the 1:19:19.880 --> 1:19:22.040 record side and not seeing things that are unfair on 1:19:22.080 --> 1:19:25.000 the act side. But nine times out of ten, it's 1:19:25.040 --> 1:19:26.800 the act that makes the money and the record label 1:19:26.840 --> 1:19:32.360 the loses. Okay, do you foresee the police breaking up 1:19:32.720 --> 1:19:37.000 and how do you end up as the manager's sting? Well? 1:19:37.080 --> 1:19:39.560 I think Sting was smart enough to know that, you know, 1:19:39.760 --> 1:19:42.880 it takes a lot more than you know one guy 1:19:43.000 --> 1:19:45.400 writing songs and putting a band together. You know, you 1:19:45.479 --> 1:19:47.720 need an organization behind you. And he knew that I 1:19:47.880 --> 1:19:49.920 was good at what I was doing. And he also 1:19:50.000 --> 1:19:53.960 knew that I was good at let's call it thinking 1:19:54.000 --> 1:19:56.160 out of the box, not being stuck in some kind 1:19:56.200 --> 1:19:58.240 of rules, you know, and he wanted to break the rules, 1:19:58.400 --> 1:20:01.759 you know. And uh, in the case of the police, 1:20:01.880 --> 1:20:04.080 none of us really wanted the police to break up, 1:20:04.160 --> 1:20:06.160 even Sting, I mean, because it was kind of like 1:20:06.240 --> 1:20:09.760 the Golden Goose. So if you remember back, nobody really 1:20:09.800 --> 1:20:13.200 made an announcement, Okay, the police are broken up. Now 1:20:13.280 --> 1:20:17.080 Stings solo, it kind of like, well, we're not really 1:20:17.160 --> 1:20:19.200 saying the police broke up, even though we kind of 1:20:19.280 --> 1:20:22.880 think they have. But Sting is gonna do a solo 1:20:23.000 --> 1:20:25.639 record and maybe he'll do another police album. We don't 1:20:25.760 --> 1:20:29.160 really know. And it wasn't until Andy Summers did a 1:20:29.200 --> 1:20:31.960 solo record a couple of years later that he had 1:20:32.240 --> 1:20:34.560 as a publicity he kind of said, well, really, the 1:20:34.560 --> 1:20:36.720 police are kind of broken up, you know, But we 1:20:36.880 --> 1:20:39.680 always kind of hit it. None of us wanted to 1:20:39.760 --> 1:20:44.240 say definitively the police are broken up, because it was 1:20:44.360 --> 1:20:47.400 kind of like killing something that was an asset. Why 1:20:47.479 --> 1:20:51.200 if you don't have to, um, you know, a lot 1:20:51.200 --> 1:20:53.160 of people knew, I mean, Sting knew, I kind of 1:20:53.240 --> 1:20:56.240 knew that Sting didn't really want to do The Police again, 1:20:56.360 --> 1:21:01.200 especially when his solo career had happened. Um, what did 1:21:01.280 --> 1:21:05.120 I want to go out and announce it? No? Okay? 1:21:05.240 --> 1:21:07.800 What's the thrill for you in the process? Is that 1:21:07.920 --> 1:21:11.040 the music itself is the marketing, is the ride? What 1:21:11.240 --> 1:21:15.800 turns you on? And how's you doing this? I don't 1:21:15.840 --> 1:21:18.960 know that I would put my finger on one thing, 1:21:19.120 --> 1:21:20.920 but there is a kind of a thrill in taking 1:21:21.040 --> 1:21:26.200 something that everybody says is a loser and making it 1:21:26.320 --> 1:21:28.920 a huge winner. There's there's a lot of fun in 1:21:29.040 --> 1:21:31.880 that in a way. It's but but then again, that 1:21:32.040 --> 1:21:33.800 make it seem like I'm saying, well, I want to 1:21:33.880 --> 1:21:35.639 go out and say I told you so. Well, It's 1:21:36.760 --> 1:21:38.719 it's not really that. There is a kind of a thrill, 1:21:38.880 --> 1:21:41.000 you know when I when I when we did The 1:21:41.080 --> 1:21:44.400 Police and UH at a London show and I hired 1:21:44.439 --> 1:21:47.599 a half track to drive us. We we did an 1:21:47.600 --> 1:21:50.960 opening show with Hammerson palis Amage with Odian for three 1:21:51.000 --> 1:21:54.759 thousand people, the right upmarket, cool venue across the street. 1:21:54.800 --> 1:21:57.040 We decided we go a little more punky with a 1:21:57.160 --> 1:22:00.639 stand up venue called the Hammersmonth Palais. I figured, well, 1:22:00.720 --> 1:22:02.800 you know, to get across the intersection. We should have 1:22:02.920 --> 1:22:05.639 some kind of cool image. Let's let's get an army 1:22:05.680 --> 1:22:07.160 hat track and we'll put the band in the back 1:22:07.200 --> 1:22:09.400 of it. We'll drive across the street and look kind 1:22:09.439 --> 1:22:12.320 of cool in the photographs. Of course, when we went 1:22:12.360 --> 1:22:13.920 out of backstage and we got in the hat track 1:22:14.000 --> 1:22:17.759 and we drove out in the intersection, it was complete bedroom. 1:22:17.840 --> 1:22:20.519 There were thousands of people are Luckily I had hired 1:22:20.600 --> 1:22:22.759 a hat track, and we couldn't have got across the street, 1:22:22.880 --> 1:22:26.280 you know, because there were thousands of fans and they're 1:22:26.280 --> 1:22:28.280 all screaming and yelling and wanting to get a piece 1:22:28.320 --> 1:22:31.080 of the police, you know, And that was thrilling, you know, 1:22:31.240 --> 1:22:35.639 to see people just were going crazy for something you had, 1:22:36.120 --> 1:22:38.240 you were helping making happen. That was great, you know. 1:22:39.120 --> 1:22:41.040 I mean, there were there were other times, like I 1:22:41.240 --> 1:22:43.920 was invited to be to give the keynote speech at 1:22:44.200 --> 1:22:47.640 the New New Music Seminar in New York. And the 1:22:47.720 --> 1:22:49.360 first couple of ones had a big, kind of small 1:22:49.439 --> 1:22:51.200 three or four hundred people. But this was one that 1:22:51.240 --> 1:22:52.960 which I had heard it was gonna be kind of big, 1:22:53.000 --> 1:22:55.559 and there was like three thousand people there and I've 1:22:55.880 --> 1:22:58.160 brought out. It was at the Hilton Hotel in New York, 1:22:58.240 --> 1:22:59.800 and I came came out to do my speech and 1:23:00.320 --> 1:23:02.880 looking out at a bank of people, of three thousands 1:23:02.960 --> 1:23:05.920 of people, thinking, wow, you know this is big. You know, 1:23:06.479 --> 1:23:09.040 I knew my speech. I walk off the stage and 1:23:09.120 --> 1:23:11.040 I'm I'm walking to the side of the door, and 1:23:11.080 --> 1:23:12.560 this girl comes up to me with a tape in 1:23:12.600 --> 1:23:17.519 her hand and looks at me and say uh, and 1:23:17.680 --> 1:23:22.280 she fainted right in front of me. I'm thinking, you know, 1:23:22.479 --> 1:23:24.080 my first in it was that I didn't touch her. 1:23:24.080 --> 1:23:27.080 I didn't touch her, you know, like she fainted. And 1:23:27.160 --> 1:23:30.400 I realized after she and she was coming so close 1:23:30.479 --> 1:23:33.679 to the person that she thought, by some magic could 1:23:33.720 --> 1:23:35.559 make her a big superstar. You know, she had her 1:23:35.560 --> 1:23:37.840 tape in her hand. She just fainted right in front 1:23:37.880 --> 1:23:39.920 of me. You know, she was so overcome to be 1:23:40.000 --> 1:23:43.360 into my presence. You know, that was a shock. You know, 1:23:43.560 --> 1:23:46.080 I'm just some guy, you know, and here's this girl 1:23:46.160 --> 1:23:49.320 fainting in front of me, you know. And I remember 1:23:49.960 --> 1:23:52.600 um sort of a similar experience. You know, when I 1:23:52.640 --> 1:23:56.880 went out to introduce the police at Shade Stadium. You know, 1:23:57.800 --> 1:24:01.040 eighty thousand people as me even a bit more, you know, 1:24:01.880 --> 1:24:04.400 and uh, I'm doing the introduction. So I walked out 1:24:04.439 --> 1:24:08.200 on stage and the minute I walk out, flash bulbs everywhere. 1:24:08.320 --> 1:24:11.080 The place was electric. That was screams, and I got 1:24:11.200 --> 1:24:15.880 ladies and gentleman this time, and the place went the 1:24:16.200 --> 1:24:19.640 zirk that at the roar of the crowd. I mean, 1:24:20.160 --> 1:24:24.880 it was so powerful. I did my introduction and walking 1:24:24.960 --> 1:24:28.000 up the stage and I was shaking with it, just 1:24:28.400 --> 1:24:30.880 the energy of it, you know, And I thought to myself, 1:24:31.320 --> 1:24:32.880 oh my god, look what it's done to me. I 1:24:33.000 --> 1:24:36.040 was on stage for a minute. Those guys are gonna 1:24:36.080 --> 1:24:38.200 be out there for an hour and a half. What's 1:24:38.240 --> 1:24:42.880 it gonna do to them? And you know, something people 1:24:42.960 --> 1:24:46.280 forget is that they went out there and they were 1:24:46.400 --> 1:24:50.400 dealing with I mean, people fainting and people going crazy, 1:24:50.600 --> 1:24:53.439 and I mean just the mediac this of it. It 1:24:53.600 --> 1:24:56.200 was unbelievable. I mean one of one of the funny 1:24:56.280 --> 1:24:59.960 stories that at that show, you know, everybody was showing 1:25:00.080 --> 1:25:02.840 get on stage, and at one point the security guy 1:25:02.880 --> 1:25:05.040 asked me if I could stay by the stairs because 1:25:05.080 --> 1:25:06.479 everybody is trying to get up, and he was like 1:25:06.800 --> 1:25:09.439 losing losing it, you know, And I said okay, I'll stop. 1:25:09.680 --> 1:25:12.800 So overcomes the manager of Joan Jett, who has been 1:25:12.880 --> 1:25:16.000 one of the opening acts, and a big burly guys 1:25:16.040 --> 1:25:18.360 coming right behind him, you know. And the manager comes out. 1:25:18.400 --> 1:25:19.760 But I know what he's gonna ask. You said, Miles, 1:25:19.800 --> 1:25:21.719 you know, do me a favor. You know, Joan Jets 1:25:21.760 --> 1:25:24.120 here with her mother, and you know our parents can 1:25:24.200 --> 1:25:25.640 can you put them on stage? And I said, look 1:25:25.680 --> 1:25:29.000 at the fire marshals up there right now, everybody and 1:25:29.040 --> 1:25:31.320 their mother. The police have got all there. I don't 1:25:31.320 --> 1:25:33.800 know what I know. If I put anybody else up there, 1:25:33.880 --> 1:25:36.280 they're gonna close the whole show down, you know. And 1:25:36.360 --> 1:25:38.840 he says, I understand, I understand, you know, but anything 1:25:38.880 --> 1:25:40.360 you can do. And I said, believe me, I'll do 1:25:40.439 --> 1:25:43.280 what I can. You know. He walks off. This big 1:25:43.400 --> 1:25:46.960 burly bouncer comes up and goes takes my hand and 1:25:47.040 --> 1:25:49.240 sort of, I know, Mr Copeland, I know what you're 1:25:49.280 --> 1:25:52.240 gonna do. What you're gonna do, right and I and 1:25:52.320 --> 1:25:53.760 he takes his hand and walks to and I look, 1:25:53.840 --> 1:25:56.200 there's a twenty dollar bill in my hand. The guy 1:25:56.240 --> 1:25:59.599 at timpt me. But to what Joe Jett other stage 1:25:59.640 --> 1:26:02.599 with what bucks? You know, so I go backstage the band. 1:26:03.240 --> 1:26:06.559 I say, guys, you will not believe what just happened. 1:26:07.240 --> 1:26:08.840 I'm going back to get them to bring them out 1:26:08.840 --> 1:26:10.519 on stage, you know. And I said, they said what 1:26:10.720 --> 1:26:12.840 I said? I said, Joe Jet's magic came up with 1:26:12.920 --> 1:26:15.599 some bouncer comes up. I just got tipped twenty bucks 1:26:16.080 --> 1:26:19.240 for putting somebody on stage. So Andy Summers said up 1:26:19.240 --> 1:26:23.240 to me and says, okay, give us our share. So 1:26:23.400 --> 1:26:25.840 I have to give up five bucks this big bid 1:26:25.960 --> 1:26:28.679 the Stewarts five to Andy, and I get five bucks, 1:26:28.760 --> 1:26:31.479 you know. So they were and they're looking at it, going, 1:26:31.960 --> 1:26:33.960 that's great, we just make five bucks with the show, 1:26:34.040 --> 1:26:38.679 and out they walked, you know. Okay. Traditionally or not traditionally, 1:26:38.720 --> 1:26:41.640 but a great number of managers end up going inside 1:26:42.160 --> 1:26:45.720 two labels. Were you ever offered the gig? Where you 1:26:45.800 --> 1:26:50.920 ever tempted you want? Did you want that? No? Not really? 1:26:51.000 --> 1:26:52.960 I mean I R S was my label. So in 1:26:53.080 --> 1:26:55.799 the way I had I was inside. I was inside 1:26:55.880 --> 1:26:57.640 E M I because we sold I R S, D 1:26:57.880 --> 1:27:02.080 M I, and so I became I was part. I 1:27:02.280 --> 1:27:05.000 realized what the corporate world was was once a year 1:27:05.120 --> 1:27:07.320 they would bring all the label heads together you know, 1:27:07.880 --> 1:27:11.320 they would have you know, Chris Lists and capital and whatever. 1:27:11.439 --> 1:27:13.679 We would all have to do our presentation for the year. 1:27:14.479 --> 1:27:16.880 And my I was very good friends with the head 1:27:16.920 --> 1:27:18.479 guy at E M I, who was the guy named 1:27:18.520 --> 1:27:21.760 Jim five Field. And after the presentation and we'd all 1:27:21.840 --> 1:27:23.960 all good art you know, talking about acts and all that, 1:27:24.160 --> 1:27:26.559 he would leave the room and the accountants would come 1:27:26.600 --> 1:27:30.479 in and they say, Okay, your target this year is X. 1:27:31.040 --> 1:27:34.360 You make that number, you get your Christmas bonus. I 1:27:34.439 --> 1:27:36.639 don't care how you do it. You can fire everybody 1:27:36.720 --> 1:27:38.679 and cut your overhead or you're gonna have a hit record, 1:27:38.760 --> 1:27:41.280 don't care. That's whatever you gotta make. You make that number, 1:27:41.920 --> 1:27:44.120 you get your Christmas bonus. You don't like that number, 1:27:44.240 --> 1:27:47.680 you don't get squatted. And we're sitting there at the 1:27:47.760 --> 1:27:51.600 end of the thing thinking, you know, what are we 1:27:51.640 --> 1:27:54.040 gonna do? Well, of course you gotta figure some way 1:27:54.080 --> 1:27:55.960 to get your Christmas bonus because that's all you're gonna 1:27:56.000 --> 1:27:58.479 make that year, you know. So that's the corporate world. 1:27:58.560 --> 1:28:01.920 You know, this whole idea about you know, artists label. 1:28:02.040 --> 1:28:03.840 You know they care about the artists and the music 1:28:03.920 --> 1:28:06.600 and the art nonsense. Wait till the accounts walk in 1:28:06.640 --> 1:28:10.320 their own it's the numbers, it's the share value. And 1:28:10.439 --> 1:28:12.200 that was a world that I was really not going 1:28:12.280 --> 1:28:15.120 to function well in. Now. J Boulberg, who by this 1:28:15.280 --> 1:28:18.840 time and you know who was was with me in 1:28:18.880 --> 1:28:21.240 the label there. You know, I said to him at 1:28:21.280 --> 1:28:22.439 the end of it, I said, look, you know, I'm 1:28:22.439 --> 1:28:24.680 not gonna last year very long. And I'll bet you 1:28:25.280 --> 1:28:27.599 knowing you am I either as I R S. They're 1:28:27.600 --> 1:28:30.200 gonna close down Chrysalis, They're gonna close down I R S, 1:28:30.400 --> 1:28:33.280 They're gonna close down Version, They're gonna close down these labels. 1:28:33.280 --> 1:28:36.120 Why would they want so many labels? If I were you, 1:28:36.360 --> 1:28:38.200 you're a lot younger than I am. You you know 1:28:38.360 --> 1:28:40.439 your way around these companies. If I were you, I'd 1:28:40.479 --> 1:28:42.200 go out and look for a job right now before 1:28:42.240 --> 1:28:45.360 they fire you, because you know, no one's gonna hire me. 1:28:45.400 --> 1:28:47.320 They're gonna think, why would Miles take this job? He's 1:28:47.320 --> 1:28:49.560 managing Sting and making all that money with stinging the 1:28:49.680 --> 1:28:51.960 police and they have all this They imagine I'm doing 1:28:52.000 --> 1:28:54.400 all this great stuff, you know, where Shay was just 1:28:54.720 --> 1:28:57.160 working for I R S. You know, so I said, Jay, 1:28:57.240 --> 1:28:59.679 do yourself a favor, Go get yourself a job while 1:28:59.760 --> 1:29:02.360 you have a job, And I think he was kind 1:29:02.400 --> 1:29:05.760 of upset about it, but sure enough he takes my 1:29:05.840 --> 1:29:08.519 advice and he goes off, and a few months later 1:29:08.600 --> 1:29:12.639 he ends up as president of MCA Records. And of course, 1:29:12.800 --> 1:29:15.679 of course, a year later, what happens. The university closes 1:29:15.800 --> 1:29:17.880 MCA Records, and he's that of a job, right, but 1:29:17.960 --> 1:29:21.160 he survives. The history of the music business is littered 1:29:21.240 --> 1:29:25.280 with people who had great fortunes and blew them. What 1:29:25.400 --> 1:29:29.320 happened with all your money? Well, I if I could 1:29:29.360 --> 1:29:31.000 go back and do it over again, I'd have more 1:29:31.080 --> 1:29:33.439 money than I have now, for sure. You know. I mean, 1:29:33.479 --> 1:29:35.280 I did blow money on things I shouldn't have done 1:29:35.280 --> 1:29:37.920 it on, you know, But thankfully I did do enough 1:29:37.960 --> 1:29:41.760 stuff that made money. When I sold IRIS Records, I 1:29:41.880 --> 1:29:43.680 made money. You know. I bought a place in a 1:29:43.760 --> 1:29:46.000 big about a castle in France, believe it or not, 1:29:46.160 --> 1:29:49.680 you know, which is appreciated in value. You know, I 1:29:49.800 --> 1:29:51.840 have my royalties from the police. You know, I do 1:29:52.040 --> 1:29:54.760 have money, but I'm not. I'm not flushed like I 1:29:54.880 --> 1:29:56.720 used to be. I wouldn't walk around and say, you know, 1:29:56.840 --> 1:29:59.760 I'm a billionaire or whatever. You know, But I'm living 1:29:59.800 --> 1:30:02.120 in Fine, you know, and a lot of it has 1:30:02.160 --> 1:30:03.719 to do with the fact that, you know, I'm getting 1:30:03.800 --> 1:30:06.720 rewarded four things that I did years ago, just like 1:30:07.000 --> 1:30:09.360 Sting is, and just like Andy and Stewart are you know, 1:30:09.840 --> 1:30:12.400 we all got our royalties to things we did thirty 1:30:12.479 --> 1:30:15.360 years ago. Uh, And I think that's right, you know, 1:30:15.479 --> 1:30:18.680 we should, you know, because you know, I went through 1:30:18.680 --> 1:30:21.160 a lot of sacrifice, just like Andy Somers did, and 1:30:21.280 --> 1:30:24.840 Stewart and Sting, and we all sacrificed to get what 1:30:25.040 --> 1:30:28.559 we we have, and some made more than others. Of course, 1:30:28.600 --> 1:30:32.320 Sting made up like a bandit, and uh, thankfully he 1:30:32.439 --> 1:30:34.800 wrote great songs and he deserves every penny he's got. 1:30:35.760 --> 1:30:37.640 And a lot of the great artists do you know. 1:30:38.040 --> 1:30:41.720 But sure there are those that blew their money. Um, 1:30:42.280 --> 1:30:44.679 and thankfully I was not one that blew all mine. 1:30:45.479 --> 1:30:48.760 So once keeping you busy now other than writing your memoir, well, 1:30:48.840 --> 1:30:51.280 actually writing the memoer was was quite interesting. But I'm 1:30:51.360 --> 1:30:54.280 very interested in politics and what's going on today. I'm looking, 1:30:54.479 --> 1:30:56.240 you know, with kind of fear at what's going on 1:30:56.360 --> 1:30:59.800 in America. And but you know, I'm having grown up 1:31:00.080 --> 1:31:01.760 one of the you know, you asked very early on, 1:31:01.960 --> 1:31:04.080 you know, what was it like, you know, growing up 1:31:04.080 --> 1:31:05.600 in the Middle East. Well, one of the things that 1:31:06.920 --> 1:31:09.840 does get into your mind is, you know, what's the 1:31:09.880 --> 1:31:12.560 position of America in the world, and what is the 1:31:12.640 --> 1:31:15.680 politics of the world. So politics is very much a 1:31:15.760 --> 1:31:17.720 part of what you live and grow up in and 1:31:17.800 --> 1:31:21.360 places like Lebanon and whatever. You know, And uh, I 1:31:21.479 --> 1:31:24.439 can't help but remain interested in politics and what's happening 1:31:24.520 --> 1:31:28.240 with the country and where the future goes. And um, 1:31:29.040 --> 1:31:31.880 that's something that you know, I'm I watched stev every day, 1:31:31.960 --> 1:31:33.880 just like Donald Trump does, you know, wanting to see 1:31:33.920 --> 1:31:37.320 what crazy stuff is happening. You know. But I'm also 1:31:37.400 --> 1:31:39.760 working with guitar players, so I always liked they work 1:31:39.800 --> 1:31:45.479 with Steve i, Umnodle, Bettencourt, Zach wild Y, Moustein, I 1:31:45.560 --> 1:31:49.080 worked with Kenny Waite, Shepard, you know, guitarists. I really 1:31:49.160 --> 1:31:53.000 loved the guitar and what the guitar does. Um, and 1:31:53.200 --> 1:31:55.760 I love I love musicianship and stuff. I still listen 1:31:55.800 --> 1:31:57.200 to records, you know, I still listen to a lot 1:31:57.240 --> 1:31:59.439 of Middle Eastern stuff. As a matter of fact, I'm 1:31:59.439 --> 1:32:03.000 not married to one particular kind of music, but I'm 1:32:03.040 --> 1:32:04.880 interested in what's going on in the world, you know, 1:32:05.120 --> 1:32:08.280 and the human predicament, you know, I'm interested. I'm sitting 1:32:08.320 --> 1:32:10.960 here in California looking out it as you must be 1:32:11.479 --> 1:32:15.200 looking out at smoke, you know, uh, the environment, you know, 1:32:15.280 --> 1:32:16.880 Where where am I? What are my kids going to 1:32:16.920 --> 1:32:19.320 grow up to be in twenty years, you know, and 1:32:19.800 --> 1:32:21.680 what's the world gonna be? So I think none of 1:32:21.760 --> 1:32:25.960 us can escape from that fact. Um So I would 1:32:26.000 --> 1:32:29.280 say my my vision now has become I mean it's 1:32:29.280 --> 1:32:32.680 always been sort of slightly political, but much more so 1:32:32.840 --> 1:32:36.040 now than it has been in the past. So, needless 1:32:36.040 --> 1:32:38.680 to say, the music business has gone through a tumultuous 1:32:38.800 --> 1:32:42.840 change in the twenty first century. And I would also say, 1:32:42.920 --> 1:32:44.720 as someone who's been around in the era where you 1:32:44.800 --> 1:32:48.400 had your heyday, music drove the culture in a way 1:32:48.439 --> 1:32:52.000 it does not today and is not quite as important, 1:32:52.040 --> 1:32:54.880 even though they're big acts, etcetera. What do you think 1:32:54.920 --> 1:32:57.840 about music's place in the overall culture today and what 1:32:57.960 --> 1:33:02.280 do you think about today's music business this Well, I'd 1:33:02.280 --> 1:33:06.320 say the music business has changed a lot. But you know, 1:33:07.160 --> 1:33:09.320 a couple of years ago I sat with Jay Boberg, 1:33:09.360 --> 1:33:13.040 who was actually had had gotten the was running a 1:33:13.120 --> 1:33:15.720 chairman of a company that was doing digital stuff. So 1:33:15.800 --> 1:33:17.120 I asked him, I said, you know, what, what do 1:33:17.200 --> 1:33:20.120 you think, you know, with the Spotify and the world 1:33:20.200 --> 1:33:23.000 of digital and does that mean that all the royalties 1:33:23.040 --> 1:33:25.800 that I'm getting from the police and the old stuff 1:33:25.840 --> 1:33:27.439 that I did over the years, you know, that means 1:33:27.439 --> 1:33:30.240 he's gonna be dissopated. And he said, well no, he said, 1:33:30.280 --> 1:33:32.160 just the opposite. And I said, what are you talking about? 1:33:32.200 --> 1:33:35.080 He said, well, you know, he said, what's really happened, 1:33:35.120 --> 1:33:39.439 he said, is that now even though you're not making 1:33:39.520 --> 1:33:44.920 a lot per play, you're talking billions. So he said, remember, 1:33:45.160 --> 1:33:47.040 you know, you go back twenty years, were we ever 1:33:47.120 --> 1:33:50.719 making money out of Africa? No, it was all piracy 1:33:50.880 --> 1:33:53.320 and you know you'd never get a royalty check from 1:33:53.320 --> 1:33:56.439 anywhere in Africa. He said, Now, if somebody wants music 1:33:56.520 --> 1:33:59.960 and gabon or what you know, pick pick a country. 1:34:00.160 --> 1:34:03.080 You know, Molly, you know they have their phone and 1:34:03.120 --> 1:34:05.120 they want music, Well they can get it on their phone, 1:34:05.200 --> 1:34:07.680 even if they're paying two cents a song. You know, 1:34:07.720 --> 1:34:10.599 at least it's something. So he said, now we're actually 1:34:10.640 --> 1:34:14.280 getting royalty east from Africa. So he said, multiplied Spotify, 1:34:14.439 --> 1:34:16.400 where you know, two or three years ago, maybe you 1:34:16.479 --> 1:34:19.599 were getting point zero zero zero one cent a song 1:34:20.200 --> 1:34:27.240 play multiple times ten billion. Now you're talking real money. So, 1:34:27.360 --> 1:34:30.799 he said, the likelihood is, even though the record business 1:34:30.840 --> 1:34:34.519 went into a huge slum when the Satisfy and and 1:34:34.840 --> 1:34:38.120 the Spotify, a lot of these digital platforms were starting, 1:34:38.160 --> 1:34:40.400 obvious is I think the arc is gonna go back 1:34:40.479 --> 1:34:43.519 up again, where those royalty streams will now be meaningful 1:34:43.640 --> 1:34:46.800 because there's just so many people on it. And he said, 1:34:47.080 --> 1:34:50.120 the funny thing about the youth today is the figure 1:34:50.120 --> 1:34:53.120 it out. Paying nine bucks a month to listen to 1:34:53.200 --> 1:34:56.519 whatever you want, whenever you want it is a great deal. 1:34:57.000 --> 1:34:59.840 It's a lot better deal than in the past, where 1:35:00.600 --> 1:35:02.760 once a month you get to buy one record for 1:35:02.920 --> 1:35:06.160 fifteen bucks and you only get to hear that one record. 1:35:07.160 --> 1:35:09.120 You know, you own the record, he said. But you know, 1:35:09.320 --> 1:35:11.800 nine bucks a month, for ten bucks a month, whatever 1:35:11.840 --> 1:35:15.599 it is to get spotifyces you own everything all the time. 1:35:15.720 --> 1:35:17.920 He said, that's a great deal. It's a lot cheaper 1:35:18.000 --> 1:35:21.320 for the average kid then buying one record a month. 1:35:21.479 --> 1:35:23.040 You know, So, he said, when you think about it 1:35:23.120 --> 1:35:26.719 that way, he said, the whole generation of this thinking 1:35:26.840 --> 1:35:28.600 of things in a different way. And you know, you 1:35:28.640 --> 1:35:32.280 look at things like Uber and also you know a 1:35:32.400 --> 1:35:34.800 lot of other businesses they're really thinking, well, wait a minute, 1:35:34.840 --> 1:35:38.400 owning something doesn't have quite the same fields it used 1:35:38.400 --> 1:35:42.320 to owning a car. Why, you know, with all the 1:35:43.040 --> 1:35:45.040 you know, you gotta buy tires, you gotta you getta 1:35:45.120 --> 1:35:47.760 license it, you gotta you know, have repairs, you gotta 1:35:47.800 --> 1:35:50.200 buy gash you got well, you know, Uber is pretty easy. 1:35:50.320 --> 1:35:52.160 You know. So a lot of those sort of ways 1:35:52.240 --> 1:35:56.439 of thinking, you know, uh, that ownership as a way 1:35:56.920 --> 1:35:59.679 that you used to influence my generation or your generation, 1:36:00.760 --> 1:36:04.080 they now think of in a different way. And will 1:36:04.120 --> 1:36:07.720 that change everything in the future? Will maybe? So you know, um, 1:36:08.680 --> 1:36:10.760 I think that in terms of you know, what I 1:36:10.840 --> 1:36:12.920 said to him was the time to start a record label? 1:36:12.960 --> 1:36:14.880 He said, Well, no, he said, because the problem is, 1:36:15.479 --> 1:36:17.559 by the time you build up enough of a catalog 1:36:18.800 --> 1:36:21.360 to make any money, you spent so much money doing 1:36:21.439 --> 1:36:24.000 it that you'll never make it back again. So the 1:36:24.040 --> 1:36:26.200 way to make money is do what universal did you buy? 1:36:26.240 --> 1:36:30.280 E M I. They've already got the catalog you spent. 1:36:30.360 --> 1:36:32.599 You buy it for three or four million dollars billion. 1:36:33.800 --> 1:36:36.960 You fire everybody. Now, all that money goes straight into 1:36:36.960 --> 1:36:40.360 your system, which is already set up digitally cause you 1:36:41.080 --> 1:36:43.800 maybe a few more people, and all that money just 1:36:43.840 --> 1:36:45.560 flows in with no cost to it. Whereas E M 1:36:45.600 --> 1:36:47.360 I had all the costs. Now they've got none. They 1:36:47.439 --> 1:36:49.280 got no rent, they got no pressing, and they got 1:36:49.400 --> 1:36:52.160 no nothing. You just clashed in. So universal now is 1:36:52.200 --> 1:36:56.400 making doing phenomenally well because they lost all the they 1:36:56.479 --> 1:36:58.400 have E M I, but with no cost to me. 1:36:58.439 --> 1:37:03.200 Am I. Well, Miles, this has been wonderful. Thank you 1:37:03.320 --> 1:37:05.759 so much for your insight in your history. You're certainly 1:37:05.800 --> 1:37:09.080 one of a kind. Thanks for doing this. Happy to 1:37:09.160 --> 1:37:12.320 be here until next time. This is Bob Left sense