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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob left Sech Podcast.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is music in Legend Miles Copeland, you know,

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Speaker 1: was a manager, as a label owner, the consummate Outsidered insider. Miles,

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Speaker 1: glad to have you here. Nice to be with you,

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Speaker 1: Bob asth we nitor you want. Okay, what's the story?

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Speaker 1: Was your father really in the CIA? My father was, well,

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Speaker 1: some people like to say, you know, for because it

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Speaker 1: sounds exotic perhaps to say he was a spy, but

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Speaker 1: an actual fact, he was what we would call an

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Speaker 1: operative in all the countries where he was working, you know,

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Speaker 1: whether it be Dabascus, Syria, or Lebanon or Egypt. The

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Speaker 1: heads of the country he knew that he was operating

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Speaker 1: from the CIA, which was really what they wanted because

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Speaker 1: they wanted a c I a guy that they could

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Speaker 1: talk to. So and an actual fact, yes, he was CIA,

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Speaker 1: but he was an operative, you know, So I can't

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Speaker 1: really say that he was a spy, although it does

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Speaker 1: sound rather exotic to say that he was. And when

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Speaker 1: did you discover that this was his line of work? Well,

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Speaker 1: I was probably I mean when when we were in Egypt,

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Speaker 1: I was only ten years old and he after we

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Speaker 1: left Egypt, he resigned from the CIA, and I knew

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Speaker 1: a few years after that that he was CIA, but

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Speaker 1: I didn't really think much about it. Um and I

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Speaker 1: never had any feeling that there was something wrong with

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Speaker 1: with influencing governments, let's say, because Lord knows some governments

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Speaker 1: do need influencing. Well, there's a rumor that your father

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Speaker 1: was involved in overthrowing the government in Syria. Was that true? Well,

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Speaker 1: that actually was true, but it was not something that

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Speaker 1: Uh had been planned in advance. I mean, as my

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Speaker 1: father used to tell the story, he said, you know,

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Speaker 1: I was having dinner with the General Zaim and the

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Speaker 1: Colonel Uh from the military attache American American Embassy, and

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Speaker 1: we were talking and he kind of brought up, you know,

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Speaker 1: almost like philosophically, well what would it take to overthrow

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Speaker 1: a government? And I sort of thought about it, and

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Speaker 1: I thought, well, you know, I guess you'd want to

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Speaker 1: take the radio station, and then you'd want to uh.

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Speaker 1: Well no, wait a minute, I think first you need

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Speaker 1: a reason for overthrowing the government, but then you take

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Speaker 1: the So anyway, they were talking philosophically, so they didn't

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Speaker 1: think much about it. But apparently the general had stopped

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Speaker 1: drinking and said finally says he could do this. We

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Speaker 1: could do this. The Americans help me, we can do this.

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Speaker 1: And he thought they all, you know, he in the

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Speaker 1: military had a she thought, my god, the guy's the

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Speaker 1: guy serious here? You know. Well, you know what, let

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Speaker 1: him sleep it off. He'll forget about it the next day. Well,

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Speaker 1: the next day he didn't forget about it, and uh,

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Speaker 1: he was Okay, the American is gonna help me, all right,

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Speaker 1: you know. And so he sends a telegram to the

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Speaker 1: CEI office back in Washington and saying, you know what

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Speaker 1: do we do? This guy really wants to overthrow the government?

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Speaker 1: You know, what's our position? And gets a cable back saying,

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Speaker 1: you know, don't mess it. You know, we don't need

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Speaker 1: this stuff, and uh, we don't mess around in foreign affairs.

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Speaker 1: And he tells the general and the general says, but

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Speaker 1: I'm going to do this. You must help me. Cable

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Speaker 1: goes back and forth and back and forth, and finally

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Speaker 1: the general says, look, if you don't help me, I

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Speaker 1: go too the Russians. So Cable goes back to Washington. Look,

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Speaker 1: this guy is serious. He's gonna do this either we're

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Speaker 1: with him or we're not with him, and if we

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Speaker 1: don't go with him, he's gonna go with the Russians.

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Speaker 1: So what do we want to do. Cable comes back saying, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, you're on the spot. Do what you gotta do.

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Speaker 1: So he stayed an incident which was at our house,

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Speaker 1: you know. He one night, Uh, my father says, okay,

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Speaker 1: you and your mother and the two kids. You know,

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Speaker 1: you're you're gonna leave the house and you're gonna go

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Speaker 1: away for the weekend, you know what, but we want

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Speaker 1: to go, just go, you know. So how we went

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Speaker 1: and uh, we come back a couple of days later,

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Speaker 1: and the house is full of bullet holes, and the

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Speaker 1: allegation had a bomb in the garden, you know, which

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Speaker 1: would planted to make sure nobody would be hurt, of course,

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Speaker 1: but this was the incident to create the the atmosphere

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Speaker 1: that the government had to come in, and you know,

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Speaker 1: this general had to come in and save the country

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Speaker 1: from these rebels, you know, which were of course completely

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Speaker 1: made up. So he ended and of course the general

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Speaker 1: overtook the country, and of course my father then could

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Speaker 1: claim as to being the first American operative to overthrow

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Speaker 1: our government. By covert means. But it was not a

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Speaker 1: planned thing where the CIA and back in Washington was plotting,

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Speaker 1: you know, they just got stuck and decided to better

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Speaker 1: go on with it because the guy was going to

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Speaker 1: do it anyway. So how many countries did you live

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Speaker 1: in growing up? I lived in Syria during that period,

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Speaker 1: and then uh in Egypt when Gamala Donasa became the

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Speaker 1: president and my father was organized but was actually loaned

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Speaker 1: to NASA from the CIA to organize egypt Secret and

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Speaker 1: Teller's organization. And then we my father decided to go

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Speaker 1: on his own with some other CIA guys and they

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Speaker 1: would for their own private ci A and go and

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Speaker 1: we moved to Lebanon. So I lived in Lebanon for

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Speaker 1: twelve years. So I spent probably half of my early

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Speaker 1: childhood and somewhere around the Middle East. And to what

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Speaker 1: degree did these experiences inform your career as a manager.

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Speaker 1: What I'm really talking about is you're the first manager

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Speaker 1: I know who took their band, in this case, the

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Speaker 1: police around the world. How did you decide to do that? Well,

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Speaker 1: I don't know that I could say with some sort

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Speaker 1: of definite um news or position to say, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: because I grew up in Egypt. That's why I wanted

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Speaker 1: a couple Asia. But I knew Egypt existed, you know,

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Speaker 1: I knew the rest of the world existed. And if

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Speaker 1: there was one thing I knew about, you know, marketing

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Speaker 1: and rock and roll and whatever, is that image counts

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Speaker 1: for a lot. And you know, if you look at

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Speaker 1: the Beatles, it's long hair, or it's you know, Elton

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Speaker 1: John Wild clothes or you know, you you go down

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Speaker 1: the list of the real big superstars, there was always

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Speaker 1: something that was grabbed your attention. It could be a

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Speaker 1: photograph or a uh something about them, you know. And

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Speaker 1: I was figured, well, you know, the police. When I

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Speaker 1: was managing the police, I had two great advantages. One

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Speaker 1: was there's only three guys, which means it was very

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Speaker 1: inexpensive to move them around. And not only was it,

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Speaker 1: uh three guys, but it was at a period where

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Speaker 1: having a lot of equipment was really not something that

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Speaker 1: you needed, you know, it was actually better if you

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Speaker 1: didn't have a lot of equipment. So it was a

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Speaker 1: cheap operation. We could go to place as nobody else went.

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Speaker 1: You know. The other great advantage of the police was

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Speaker 1: they looked good, you know, and the sting looked like,

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Speaker 1: you know, you dressed them up as an Arab, but

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Speaker 1: put him on a stallion. There's Lawrence a Rabia for you,

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Speaker 1: you know. So I figured, well, if we're gonna go

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Speaker 1: for mystique and for glamour and for photographs, you know,

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Speaker 1: and we're just a few of us, why not why

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Speaker 1: not go to Egypt and why not go to eat

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Speaker 1: India and some exotic places, because you know, you take

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Speaker 1: a picture of the police riding camels with the Pyramids

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Speaker 1: in the background, that's a photograph that any music journalist

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Speaker 1: who's busy trying to put his newspaper together for that

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Speaker 1: week is gonna think, well, that's a photo I could use.

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Speaker 1: And that was sort of the market it was. It was,

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Speaker 1: in a way, it was a marketing idea, you know,

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Speaker 1: but it was also a lot of fun, you know,

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Speaker 1: the kind of you know, when we went to India,

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Speaker 1: we dressed up. I dressed them up as Maraja maharajahs

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Speaker 1: at the Tajbaal Hotel and but it was definitely something

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Speaker 1: that made them look glamorous and a lot of people

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Speaker 1: around the world be thinking, my god, what a wonderful

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Speaker 1: you know, what a hip happening. Group. They must be.

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Speaker 1: Look look where they are. They're they're playing in India,

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Speaker 1: They're playing in all these wild, exotic places, and it

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Speaker 1: made them so different than everybody else. You know, anybody

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Speaker 1: could play Boston or New York or London or whatever,

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Speaker 1: you know, but Egypt that was different. Talking about marketing,

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Speaker 1: was your idea for the members that being to all

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Speaker 1: die there here blonde? I will admit that was not

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Speaker 1: my idea. However, when I saw it, I thought, Eureka,

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Speaker 1: look that's a look that kind of glued them together

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Speaker 1: as a as a group, just like the Beatles, all

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Speaker 1: wearing long hair or whatever. You know. It was. It

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Speaker 1: was like a glue. But they had done it actually

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Speaker 1: for a regular experiment gun commercial, and the and the

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Speaker 1: people that wanted the commercial this that we want a

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Speaker 1: group and we want them all to be blonde hair,

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Speaker 1: you know, and so they dyed their hair for the commercial,

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Speaker 1: you know, to make a bit of a bit of

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Speaker 1: extra money. But when I saw it, I recognized what

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Speaker 1: the value of that was. Okay, Now, these places you

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Speaker 1: took the band were places where they hadn't had rock

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Speaker 1: conscience before. And I would assume there were some bumps

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Speaker 1: in the road especially in India. What was your experience

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Speaker 1: like playing in India. Well, India was was something where

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Speaker 1: you know, you sort of imagined what things are gonna be,

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Speaker 1: but you get to the place and you find out

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Speaker 1: that things aren't quite what you imagine. You know, you

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Speaker 1: imagine India that big country with at least have a

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Speaker 1: p A system. Well, when I got to India, it

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Speaker 1: took me a while to find somebody who would promote

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Speaker 1: a show. But the first thing I found out, of course,

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Speaker 1: there was no PA system. The only one that existed

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Speaker 1: was for twenty people or so. So I effectively had

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Speaker 1: to figure away to get a p A system into India,

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Speaker 1: which meant hiring some very good carpenters who could build

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Speaker 1: the big speaker cabinets, but they had no speakers in India.

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Speaker 1: So I had to go to London to buy speakers

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Speaker 1: and fly to back to India with speakers to give

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Speaker 1: it to these these uh carpenters to stick in the cabinets.

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Speaker 1: So we actually built our own p A system for India.

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Speaker 1: The other thing about India that was was unique was

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Speaker 1: that we had we turned out we had there had

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Speaker 1: never been a rock concert of any size in India before,

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Speaker 1: and we hired a three thousand seat venue open air,

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Speaker 1: and uh, the group, you know, we we went out

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Speaker 1: to do a sound check because every band would you know,

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Speaker 1: three or four o'clock in the afternoon, you do your

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Speaker 1: sound check to make sure everything's working for the show

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Speaker 1: that night, which was gonna be at seven or eight o'clock,

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Speaker 1: you know, start. But of course the audience had never

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Speaker 1: heard a rock concert before and they were beginning to

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Speaker 1: uh come to the concert hall early in the afternoon.

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Speaker 1: So when the band started the sound check, the audience

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Speaker 1: thought the concert had started and they were missing it.

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Speaker 1: So they all freaked out, and we're climbing the walls

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Speaker 1: and finally broke the gates down and stormed the venue,

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Speaker 1: and before we knew it, the place filled up with

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Speaker 1: all these fans thinking the show it started. Meanwhile there

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Speaker 1: was the police just basically sound checking. Okay, And since

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Speaker 1: you've lived in Egypt, was its smooth sailing there? Well?

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Speaker 1: Egypt had several problems for it. First place was I

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Speaker 1: went to Egypt beforehand, knowing that you really need to

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Speaker 1: check things out in advance, so of course I went.

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Speaker 1: It was at the American University, which I figured was

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Speaker 1: a decent hall, which it was, and great, do you

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Speaker 1: have electricity? Does it work? Yeah? Okay, electricity works. Do

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Speaker 1: you have uh spotlights? Yeah, okay, there are the spotlights. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you've got spotlights. And so I I vetted the place

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Speaker 1: and I thought, well, okay, we're pretty together. So we were.

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Speaker 1: The first show was in India. Then we came into Egypt. Well,

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Speaker 1: I I had made a mistake or somehow the wires

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Speaker 1: got crossed. And the first thing that happened was the

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Speaker 1: equipment came in on air frase as opposed to access

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Speaker 1: baggage and uh, so I go to pick up the

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Speaker 1: the equipment so we can do the show that night,

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Speaker 1: and of course there's no equipment there because it came

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Speaker 1: in on the freight a supposed to excess baggage. And

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Speaker 1: I had a little fixed man by the name of Muhammed,

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Speaker 1: and I said, Mohammed, Uh, what are we gonna do

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Speaker 1: with the equipment is not here? They said, well maybe

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Speaker 1: it is. It a freight. So we go to the

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Speaker 1: air freight blights, which of course was a Friday, and

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Speaker 1: uh it was their their holiday there, religious holiday like

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Speaker 1: like our Sunday. And there was a guy there and says,

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Speaker 1: sunny gonna impuzzy, but we cannot help you come back Monday,

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Speaker 1: you know. I said, we can't Monday. The show is tonight,

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Speaker 1: you know. And uh so Muhammed, what were gonna do?

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Speaker 1: He society Sunday, I cannot tell this was embuzzyment Monday.

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Speaker 1: Cannot cannot help unless you know someone the someone in

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Speaker 1: the government, you know. And I said, well, I do

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Speaker 1: remember a guy I my father told me about and

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Speaker 1: who's the they are neighbor when we lived in Egypt.

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Speaker 1: I heard that he was a big deal in the

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Speaker 1: British the government, so I do know him. He said,

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Speaker 1: what's his name? I said, huss Hussan behind me. You

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Speaker 1: know this man, he is the vice but let us

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Speaker 1: thought of Egypt. He could do anything. He is a god.

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Speaker 1: I said, well, get him on the phone. Lo and

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Speaker 1: behold he does. Get him on the phone, and I

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Speaker 1: get this vice prime minister on the phone and he's

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Speaker 1: going and this is the gold letter. How are you?

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Speaker 1: How's your family, your bub, how's your father? Is all good? Everything?

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Speaker 1: You know? I said, yeah, it's all good. But I've

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Speaker 1: got a problem here. I can't get my equipment. It's

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Speaker 1: in it's in it's in freight and there's nobody working here,

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Speaker 1: and he says, don't I said someone immediately, no more

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Speaker 1: than ten minutes went by, sirens wailing. Twenty policeman show up.

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Speaker 1: They waived the equipment through and I'm a hero. You

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Speaker 1: go out and I looked at Stay and I said, sting,

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Speaker 1: that's management for you. Then that night, that night though,

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Speaker 1: of course, then I showed you just how stupid manager

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Speaker 1: early was. Okay, so we get ready and we're just

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Speaker 1: doing the sound check, you know, and I'm saying, okay,

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Speaker 1: well can you I want the spotlights on the study.

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Speaker 1: Mystificld Limn. I can cannot do this. What do you

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Speaker 1: mean there's a spotlights? Can you turn the spotlight on

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Speaker 1: so we can have no But there's no bulbs. So

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Speaker 1: what do you mean there's no bulbs? He says, we

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Speaker 1: have a spotlight, but there's no bulbs in the spotlights.

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Speaker 1: And I said, well, go get something. He says, but

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Speaker 1: we don't have there's none in Egypt. We have to

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Speaker 1: go to Europe to get them. What you mean you've

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Speaker 1: got spot You told me there were spotlights is, yes,

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Speaker 1: we have spudlights, I said, but the old bulbs said them.

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Speaker 1: He said, no, it's the bugs. So we actually had that.

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Speaker 1: We had a film crew with it, so we had

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Speaker 1: to have the sun guns and the film crew, and

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Speaker 1: that was just the start of our problems. So we

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Speaker 1: had not a lot of light for the show. But

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Speaker 1: of course then then, of course who turns up with

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Speaker 1: the chief of Cairo Police with his wife and his

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Speaker 1: two kids, and he's in his suit and she's all

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Speaker 1: decked out and all her jewelry and her finery, and

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Speaker 1: of course what's he wants. He wants the front row.

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Speaker 1: And I'm saying to him, so excuse me, sir, but

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Speaker 1: you know, I really don't. It's a rock concert. You

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Speaker 1: don't want to be at the front row because you

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Speaker 1: know you're gonna get bobbed by fans. Are gonna want to,

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Speaker 1: you know, be close to the band. I said, you

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Speaker 1: really want to be like, you know, twenty rows back

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Speaker 1: or someplace, you know, someplace safe. No, no, no, and

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Speaker 1: must have the front row, okay, I warned you. Sure enough,

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Speaker 1: one minute into the show, kids are rushing the stage

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Speaker 1: to hope places bedlam. The chief of police is fighting

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Speaker 1: people off, trying to protect his wife and his kids,

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Speaker 1: and Sting takes numbers at this and kind of walks

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Speaker 1: over and sticks his foot out on the chief of

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Speaker 1: police and taps him on the shoulder and says, you know,

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Speaker 1: stub that you know because he was and if that's

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Speaker 1: a huge insult in Asia. So next thing I know,

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Speaker 1: I'm standing on the side of the stage and all

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Speaker 1: these policemen and the chief of police is rushing up

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Speaker 1: to the side of the stage and they're telling me

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Speaker 1: just go he go to jail. And he taking to jail.

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Speaker 1: You know. I said, what what happened? Is the chief

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Speaker 1: of police and my mohammed, my fixing guy says Mr

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Speaker 1: Goblin Stickers just hit the chief of police. He's going

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Speaker 1: to be in jail tonight. You must do something, you know.

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Speaker 1: So I have to have an apology, you know. So

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Speaker 1: I waited for the song day. I walk out on

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Speaker 1: stage and I said, Sting, you just kicked the chief

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Speaker 1: of police at Cairo. He wants to put you in jail.

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Speaker 1: You've got to apologize. And sing looks at me and

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Speaker 1: says no, I said, Sting, for Christ's sake, you gotta

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Speaker 1: pud No. He said he shouldn't have done that, you know.

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Speaker 1: So I go back wait for the next song, and

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Speaker 1: I go back out against thing. Look, this is serious.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna be in jail tonight in Cairo, and I

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Speaker 1: don't know if I can get you out. So I'll

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Speaker 1: tell you what. Let me do the talking. I'll apologize

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Speaker 1: and I'll look at you and you just nod your

317
00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,120
Speaker 1: head like you're agreeing with me. Okay, will you do that?

318
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Speaker 1: It says, okay, I'll do that. So at the end

319
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Speaker 1: of the show, the police are on the side of

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Speaker 1: the stage. They rush out, they grab Staying and I'm

321
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Speaker 1: all right there in front of him, and I'm going, Mr,

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00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:17,800
Speaker 1: I'm so saudy, and I'm remembering every bit of Arabic

323
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Speaker 1: I could think of, you know. I'm we apologize and

324
00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:23,920
Speaker 1: it shouldn't have happened, you know, everything I could think of,

325
00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:25,440
Speaker 1: you know. And then I would look at Staying and

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Speaker 1: say Sting, you know, given the sign, and he nodded

327
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Speaker 1: an agreement, you know. And then I look back at

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Speaker 1: the Chief of police. And so the bluff worked, and

329
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Speaker 1: at the end of it, the Chief of Police turns

330
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Speaker 1: to me and says, I don't like Zack Man, but

331
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Speaker 1: you are honor. I go now, and how do you left?

332
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Speaker 1: And I went up to Sting and I I went

333
00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,040
Speaker 1: up to stay at us at Staying, I just saved

334
00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:48,080
Speaker 1: you from a state worse than death. That was our

335
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,560
Speaker 1: story of Cairo. Let's go back to the beginning of

336
00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,200
Speaker 1: the police's career. Legend has it that you made a

337
00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:56,400
Speaker 1: unique deal with A and M. There was no upfront money,

338
00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:58,600
Speaker 1: but you've got a better royalty rate. What really went

339
00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:02,720
Speaker 1: down there, Well, it's true I did make a deal

340
00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:04,800
Speaker 1: with A and M for no money and a very

341
00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,600
Speaker 1: high royalty rate, but it was not necessarily because I

342
00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,560
Speaker 1: was being so brilliant, you know, and and uh, it

343
00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:14,320
Speaker 1: was really a matter of I had no choice. I knew.

344
00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,720
Speaker 1: I knew one thing, and that is that the police

345
00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,080
Speaker 1: had very little going for them that I could go

346
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,119
Speaker 1: to a record company and try to talk him into

347
00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,040
Speaker 1: a record deal. There was no tour upcoming, there was

348
00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,720
Speaker 1: no press, there was no fan base. It was literally nothing.

349
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:30,879
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, the police were sort of

350
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Speaker 1: shunned by the punks because they were older, and they

351
00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,840
Speaker 1: were not recognized by the older bands and either. So

352
00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:40,800
Speaker 1: basically the police were in no man's land. There was

353
00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:44,600
Speaker 1: nothing to recommend him except for one thing. The music

354
00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,119
Speaker 1: they made in the studio was great. The Chastle had

355
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,160
Speaker 1: rock sand so I knew the music had to speak

356
00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:52,720
Speaker 1: for itself. So I figured if I went to the

357
00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:54,840
Speaker 1: record label and I said, look, you know, and I

358
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,280
Speaker 1: set up a scenario where he only listened to the

359
00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,159
Speaker 1: music and made a judgment based on whether you're the

360
00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:02,879
Speaker 1: music or not and not. At the back of his

361
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:05,520
Speaker 1: head was you know, what's this gonna cost me? You know,

362
00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:07,760
Speaker 1: is this gonna eat up my budget for the year.

363
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,040
Speaker 1: What's my boss gonna think? You know, suppose this fails,

364
00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,520
Speaker 1: if I gonna look like a fool, all the sort

365
00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:15,680
Speaker 1: of negatives that an average a and our guy would

366
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,880
Speaker 1: be having, I had to eliminate. So you only listened

367
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Speaker 1: to music. So I went in and I said, look,

368
00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:24,920
Speaker 1: I got nothing to recommend this group except about amazing music.

369
00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:27,080
Speaker 1: So I want to make you a deal. I'm giving

370
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,600
Speaker 1: you the record for free. It's yours. You don't have

371
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,560
Speaker 1: to negotiate. Just give me the highest royalty you can.

372
00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:38,240
Speaker 1: It's free. Now listen to the record and put on

373
00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:41,119
Speaker 1: the record. And of course he heard Roxanne and all

374
00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,240
Speaker 1: the songs and and that Police album was a great album.

375
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:46,960
Speaker 1: And I bet you it was the only time he

376
00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:50,400
Speaker 1: ever listened to music without anything worrying in the back

377
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:52,880
Speaker 1: of his mind about whether, you know, this might lose

378
00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:54,960
Speaker 1: his job or eat up his budget for the year

379
00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:57,560
Speaker 1: or whatever. He just listened to the music and it

380
00:18:57,680 --> 00:18:59,159
Speaker 1: was one of those things where it's like, you know,

381
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:00,760
Speaker 1: when you got to lose, there was nothing, there was

382
00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,600
Speaker 1: nothing to lose, And that sort of strategy was one

383
00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,000
Speaker 1: that it worked. If I had asked for money, I'm

384
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,480
Speaker 1: sure he would have said no. So you make a deal.

385
00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:15,240
Speaker 1: Do they put the record out in the UK? What happened, Well,

386
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:18,720
Speaker 1: the British part of the deal was, look, you'll put

387
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:20,640
Speaker 1: the single out in America, but I don't I don't

388
00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:22,480
Speaker 1: know if that ever really happened, to tell you the truth.

389
00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:24,680
Speaker 1: But they did put the single out in England. So

390
00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,119
Speaker 1: Roxanne came out, but it didn't really get a lot

391
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,400
Speaker 1: of attention. Like I was saying, you know, it wasn't

392
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,960
Speaker 1: a lot really going to the police. So I decided

393
00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:33,960
Speaker 1: that the only really way I could get something to

394
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,240
Speaker 1: happen for them was to make something happen in the USA,

395
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,400
Speaker 1: where nobody knew who they were. So my brother Ian

396
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,200
Speaker 1: had had gotten a job at the Paragon Agency, which

397
00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:45,920
Speaker 1: was a booking agency. In making Georgia and being in

398
00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,280
Speaker 1: making Georgia, they felt them they were always sort of

399
00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,800
Speaker 1: feeling like they were off the beaten track, and to

400
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,040
Speaker 1: get a British group or something would be something special

401
00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:54,920
Speaker 1: for them. So I called in and I said, look,

402
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,600
Speaker 1: you think you can book the Police for a tour

403
00:19:57,680 --> 00:19:59,440
Speaker 1: of America. I don't care wherever he played, just can

404
00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,760
Speaker 1: you get us some shows? And he said, well, it's

405
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:03,760
Speaker 1: gonna be tough. You've got no record deal and there's

406
00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,120
Speaker 1: nobody supporting you and all that. I said, yes, there's

407
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,920
Speaker 1: only three guys in a ROADI literally we can. We

408
00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:10,960
Speaker 1: can get by on a station wagon and a few

409
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,240
Speaker 1: hundred bucks a night. We can make it work because

410
00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,520
Speaker 1: Laker Airways has got seventy five dollar tickets to America,

411
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:18,600
Speaker 1: so it's only gonna cost you if you want the

412
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,040
Speaker 1: bucks to get him there? Can you get me shows?

413
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,320
Speaker 1: And he said, well, I'll try, and lo and behold,

414
00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:27,119
Speaker 1: he gets five weeks of gates all in dumps. I

415
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,560
Speaker 1: mean the worst venues you could think of. I mean,

416
00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:32,960
Speaker 1: CB g VS is famous, but it was a dump.

417
00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,200
Speaker 1: You know, the Rat Club in Boston and well named,

418
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,440
Speaker 1: I might add, you know, and they played places where

419
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,080
Speaker 1: you know, who knows what they were. They were disco

420
00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:44,720
Speaker 1: tags or whatever. But he managed to get shows. But

421
00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:48,280
Speaker 1: the funny thing was the show that he did in

422
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:52,440
Speaker 1: Syracuse was in a cold night and only four people

423
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:54,600
Speaker 1: showed up. I mean, after all, it was a group

424
00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:56,639
Speaker 1: that we've ever heard of. Why should they show up,

425
00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:01,000
Speaker 1: you know, some club and uh, four people show up

426
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,240
Speaker 1: and the police decide, you know, well, you know what,

427
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,160
Speaker 1: four people actually bought tickets and here in the Syracuse

428
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,080
Speaker 1: Modius there we are, so you know what, let's go

429
00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,560
Speaker 1: out and give him a great show. So how they went.

430
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:16,240
Speaker 1: They did a killer show. And one of those four

431
00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:18,720
Speaker 1: people turned out to be a DJ at m i

432
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,680
Speaker 1: Q University back in Boston who had a radio show

433
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,280
Speaker 1: and he was so named with a group that would

434
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:27,560
Speaker 1: walk out and do that that he started. They gave

435
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:29,639
Speaker 1: him the Rock Sande single that they had got they

436
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,360
Speaker 1: had pressed up in England, and he started banging out

437
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,879
Speaker 1: on the station and next thing you know, some other

438
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,120
Speaker 1: stations picked up on it and it became a regional

439
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:45,440
Speaker 1: hit in the in the whole Northeast. And uh, in January,

440
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,119
Speaker 1: Jerry Moss, who was always looking at you know, the

441
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,440
Speaker 1: Emma Vane and Records started looking at who was looking

442
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:52,479
Speaker 1: at Billboard, as all the record people do. They look

443
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,520
Speaker 1: on the radio charts in the back pages of Billboard magazine,

444
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,639
Speaker 1: which is the sort of the music business magazine. And

445
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 1: he saw that one of the biggest imports was the

446
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:03,960
Speaker 1: Police and it had A and M Records next to me.

447
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:06,680
Speaker 1: So he knew me from the past that we called

448
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:10,040
Speaker 1: me up and he said, Myles, is this uh my band?

449
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,240
Speaker 1: Is this Police that says A and M Records? Does

450
00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,080
Speaker 1: that mean it's an America too? And I said, yeah

451
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:17,159
Speaker 1: it is. He said, well, you're you're the top ad

452
00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:20,200
Speaker 1: on on Northeast radio, you know. I said, well, let's

453
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,159
Speaker 1: do something. He said, well, let's get the band over

454
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:24,680
Speaker 1: here again. We'll put the record out. I said, fantastic.

455
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:26,920
Speaker 1: So I called my brother Ian again. I said, I

456
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,679
Speaker 1: in okay, the record companies now behind us, get us

457
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,680
Speaker 1: a tour. Can you book us another tour? And sure enough,

458
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 1: about two months later, the Police head off to America

459
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,040
Speaker 1: again for our second tour, this time with A and

460
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:38,680
Speaker 1: M banking. And that was really the start of the

461
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 1: Police in America. But it was that, you know, I

462
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 1: I often get asked by people you know, what was

463
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,920
Speaker 1: the most important show you ever did? And they would

464
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,440
Speaker 1: imagine I would say something like, you know cha stadium,

465
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,920
Speaker 1: you know eighty thousand people that sold out in a

466
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 1: few minutes. And I said, no, no, no, no. The

467
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:56,680
Speaker 1: most important show the Police ever did was the four

468
00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 1: people in Syracuse on that first tour. It just so

469
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:05,439
Speaker 1: happened that one of those four people happened to be important. Okay,

470
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 1: So the legend on the Police is they did not

471
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,639
Speaker 1: like each other, sometimes stronger hated each other. He was

472
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:14,880
Speaker 1: that true? And b was that true from the beginning.

473
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 1: The story of the Police really is is this is

474
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:23,239
Speaker 1: that it was? It was an interesting dynamic. Uh, there

475
00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 1: were three threes. There was the three brothers, story, Ian

476
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 1: and I, each playing a different role. Stewart created the Police,

477
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 1: He came up with a name. It was his idea.

478
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 1: He always thought it was his band. Sting wrote to

479
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 1: hit songs, and it was the look and and he

480
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 1: was a great player, and he was sort of the

481
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,359
Speaker 1: peacemaker between them, you know, so I think there was

482
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 1: there was There was always some sort of let's say,

483
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 1: I wouldn't quite call it animosity, but Stewart looked at

484
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 1: as his band. But he also knew that Sting was

485
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 1: really the driver of it. Uh. I as the manager,

486
00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,239
Speaker 1: Ian as the agent, we all had a big part

487
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: to play. So that was it was a combination of

488
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:05,119
Speaker 1: forces who were making the police happen. It wasn't single

489
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 1: e Stewart or it wasn't singlely Sting, you know. So

490
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of the thing about that

491
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 1: they were hated was exaggerated because they made a better story.

492
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,359
Speaker 1: I remember the first documentary on the police, you know,

493
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 1: I was, I was interviewed and they asked the same question.

494
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 1: He was asked, to the police really hate each other?

495
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: And I said, well, no, actually there was. There was tension,

496
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 1: of course, you know, because in a bandit's happening, and

497
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,439
Speaker 1: as crazy as it was, you know, yeah, there was tension,

498
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 1: but no, there was no hatred. There. There was sort

499
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 1: of a uh there were times like, for instance, when

500
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:40,680
Speaker 1: Stewart got so excited he sweeds Sting a little hard

501
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 1: and he cracked his ring. You know, that was not

502
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 1: because he hated Staying. That was because he was so excited,

503
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 1: you know. And I said, but you know, I so

504
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 1: I sort of downplayed the whole idea of the police

505
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 1: hating each other. Well, when the documentary comes out, I'm

506
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 1: hardly in it, and I'm looking at the documentary and

507
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 1: I'm seeing guys in there that I didn't even know

508
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: who see need to be experts on the police, and

509
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 1: they were saying thing, oh yeah, you know, sticking story,

510
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 1: hate each other, and oh yeah, there was an each

511
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 1: other's throat, and I'm going and I went to the

512
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 1: I went to the MTV people and I said, what

513
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:12,919
Speaker 1: are you doing. That's not true, and he said, well,

514
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 1: it makes a better story. And the fact of the

515
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,679
Speaker 1: matter is, I'm probably the least. I knew more than

516
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 1: anyone other than the three band members, but I'm in

517
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,400
Speaker 1: the least in the video because I was not telling

518
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: what they wanted to hear. It's a better story that

519
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 1: they hated each other. You know, later in later years,

520
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: there was probably a bit more animosity because when they

521
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 1: did the reunion tour, I mean, I I hear this

522
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 1: that Staying wanted to change some of the songs and

523
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 1: change the chords and Stewart didn't really like it. So

524
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,119
Speaker 1: maybe there was more animosity later on. But during the

525
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 1: police years, you know, from from what I saw was

526
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,399
Speaker 1: their tension was there was there you know, naturally there

527
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 1: would be, but there was no hatred. So how the

528
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 1: three Copeland brothers that have a father and intelligence and

529
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: all end up in the music by a complete fluke,

530
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 1: you know? And uh, I mean it's it's one of

531
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 1: the things that I mean, I just I just wrote

532
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 1: a book, my memoirs, but I actually just today placed

533
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,880
Speaker 1: with a publisher. Uh and uh so it'll be out

534
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: in three or four more months, you know. And I

535
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 1: explained this, but it's one of the curious stories that

536
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 1: um you know. Here I was, I knew nothing about

537
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 1: the music business, and I met a group inn in

538
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,560
Speaker 1: Beirut and said, look, we think you can help us.

539
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 1: And I go to London and on my way to

540
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 1: report to the U. S. Army because I just got drafted,

541
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: and they came to me and said, we want you

542
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,399
Speaker 1: to be our manager. I said, well, I'd love to,

543
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: but crazy idea, but I'm drafted, you know. So I

544
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 1: went off to America got rejected by the U. S.

545
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 1: Army because I have high arches, you know, I wouldn't

546
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: even trying to get out of the army, but they

547
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: rejected me. I was one of two thousand people, the

548
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 1: only one to get rejected. So I felt, in a

549
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: way sort of bad, except that it was Vietnam time

550
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: and all my friends were trying to figure out way

551
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 1: to get out of the army and I had inadvertently

552
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 1: got out of it. But I sent it a cable

553
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: back to London saying, well, I'm out of the Army.

554
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 1: I get a cable back from this this group that

555
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,400
Speaker 1: I was I ended up managing. They said, God bless

556
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 1: your feet. Anyway, the group became Wishbone Ash, which was

557
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: the first group I ever managed, and it was really

558
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:24,680
Speaker 1: a lark. I went back to London. I didn't know

559
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 1: what I was gonna do. I I had imagined I

560
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 1: was gonna be two years in the army and they said,

561
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: we think you could help us, and you know, why not,

562
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 1: you know, and I just said, what the hell? And

563
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: next thing I knew I was in the music business. Okay,

564
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,400
Speaker 1: you were learning on the fly. You're obviously a smart guy,

565
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 1: but you must have made big mistakes. Well, I think

566
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 1: you know. One of the great lessons of life is

567
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: you can just learn. You can learn things and mistakes

568
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,400
Speaker 1: maybe even more than successes. You know, I sure made mistakes.

569
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: But the one thing I knew that I know what

570
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: I like, So it was not something where I was

571
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 1: always looking over my shoulder to say, well, you know,

572
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: how do I know it's any good? Well, you know,

573
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: my my view was I like it, so it must

574
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 1: be good, you know. And that was really it was

575
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: as simple as that. And it was not a time

576
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: where it was let's say, there were no classes and

577
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 1: university to learn how to be a rock and roll manager,

578
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,120
Speaker 1: you know, so most managers were learning on the fly,

579
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 1: you know. And who's to know what makes something work

580
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 1: and something not work? You know? This has always been

581
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 1: a mystery, you know. And it's not just money, you know.

582
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:28,879
Speaker 1: There are a lot of people that have tons of

583
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 1: money try to make something happen. It doesn't happen. But

584
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 1: I didn't. I knew what I liked, and I guess

585
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: I didn't have the feeling that I was worse or

586
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 1: better than anybody else, so why not And I kind

587
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: of just went out and did it. And being in

588
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 1: England where a lot of the attitudes in England at

589
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 1: that time where you know, I would call it a

590
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,520
Speaker 1: glass half full country, you know, where I look at

591
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: a glass half full and I would say it's it's

592
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: that Sorry, I would I would put that another way.

593
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,680
Speaker 1: There a glass half empty country, whereas I was a

594
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 1: glass half full country. We could look at the same glass.

595
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 1: They would say, well it's empty, and I would say,

596
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 1: well it's full. So I basically just said, well, I

597
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: don't know what I'm not supposed to know, so well,

598
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: let's just go out and do it. And I would

599
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 1: dream up ideas, and with one of my first stunts,

600
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,239
Speaker 1: I went to trying to find a show. I had

601
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: no idea how to get a show going, you know,

602
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: and so I down the road from where I was

603
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,719
Speaker 1: staying with my parents. There was a college that had

604
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: put on shows, and I went down there and called

605
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: them up and said, look, could I get an opening

606
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: slot for the show? And I was kind of put off,

607
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: and so I decided to go to the college myself.

608
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 1: So I went to the college. I met the person

609
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: organizing the show as one of the students, and I said, well,

610
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 1: I've got the opening act on the show, and they go, okay,

611
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 1: we we don't know about that, but if you say

612
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 1: so so. And then I went back to the group

613
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: and I said, look, just show up because the college

614
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: stakes you're on, you know. And then headline group they

615
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: showed up and they thought the college had book the

616
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 1: opening act. So the college thought the headline acted about

617
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: the opening act, and the headline acting got to college

618
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: of book the act, and meanwhile, I wish I would

619
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: ask for how to do the show, and nobody said

620
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 1: anything wise, and of course we didn't get paid, but

621
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: they played a show. So it was stuff like that.

622
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: He was just doing it, you know. And uh that

623
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: that kind of got the ball rolling. Did you get

624
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 1: Wishbone ash their record deal? Yeah? How did you do that? Well?

625
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: That was something where we did. I. I was so

626
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 1: desperate to get shows, but I really had no clue

627
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: how to do it. Uh. And I saw in the

628
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 1: back pages of one of the music papers that there

629
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,479
Speaker 1: was a little book and it said the Booker's Bible

630
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: and for twenty five pounds, which was the reason why

631
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 1: money at that time, because the average of wage was

632
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: something like nineteen pounds that that period, you know, so

633
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: a week. So I thought, well, a booker's Bible which

634
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 1: had every name in it. So I called up the

635
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 1: phone number and sure enough that with the guy that

636
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: answer it says, yes, it's got every phone number you

637
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 1: could possibly want. All the clubs and all everybody the

638
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 1: books shows, and I this guy sounded kind of crooked,

639
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 1: you know, and I thought, well, you know, I'll think

640
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 1: about it. And he said, look, i'll tell you what.

641
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: I'll show you how the book works. He's paying the

642
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 1: twenty five pounds. I'll show you it works. I'll come

643
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: to your house and let's get a phone, and I'll

644
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:28,640
Speaker 1: show you how the book works. And I thought, well,

645
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: you know, I'm desperate. I don't I have no clue.

646
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 1: And the band's rehearsing and getting ready to do shows

647
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 1: and they're gonna be asking me soon. Was our first

648
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: gig and I had no gigs, you know, So I figured, well, okay,

649
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 1: I'll bring this guy over. So I get this guy.

650
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 1: Of course he looks just like the crook that he

651
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: sounded like on the phone, and uh he booked some shows.

652
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: Of course, first show comes around and off goes the

653
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: group to the show, and of course there's no show.

654
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: And uh I called him up and say, look, you

655
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: there's no no no club where you said the was,

656
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: you know, Oh, you've got the wrong address, and he

657
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 1: gives me another address. The group goes to that. Of course,

658
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: no show. So now I'm thinking, okay, all the shows

659
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 1: in the book that he had booked. Because we had

660
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: like eight shows in the books, they almost be funny

661
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: or something's wrong. So I started calling all the places.

662
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: Sure enough, everyone was like, no, we only booked discos,

663
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: or no we hadn't. We don't have music groups here anymore,

664
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: and everyone was a notion. So I thought, oh my god,

665
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 1: Now I was so embarrassed. But I actually decided, you know,

666
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 1: I mean, cold calling is a terribly hard thing to do.

667
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: Just get on the phone and started calling somebody, you know,

668
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: And I decided, well, I was so embarrassed that I

669
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 1: knew that when the group came over to the rehearsals

670
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: that I would have to tell them the bad news

671
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: that all the shows they thought were in the books

672
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: were gone. So I got on and I started using

673
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 1: this book well and the whole. A lot of the

674
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 1: numbers were good, and I started booking. I actually booked

675
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: three shows, one of which Wasn't a show which was

676
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 1: opening for Deep Purple in a place just outside of London.

677
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: And Richie Blackmore, the guitarist of Deep Purple, saw wish

678
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: Bone Ash I thought they were pretty good and men

679
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:19,239
Speaker 1: and mentioned it. The producer friend of his who then

680
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: called me up and said, look, I'd like to produce

681
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 1: your group. So that's how I met Derek Lawrence, who

682
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 1: ended up producing the first Wished One ash album. So

683
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 1: it's really Richie Blackmore from Deep Purple, who who had

684
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: put his producer on it and who called me and

685
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: what did I know, but sounded like a decent producer,

686
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: and he said he could get me a record deal,

687
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: and he did. He got a deal with a record

688
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: And why was it the band bigger in the US?

689
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 1: I think really it was cause they never really wrote

690
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: that hit song and their vocals were never really killer.

691
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 1: They were a good workman and like group um, and

692
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 1: their disadvantage is that they, you know, they really did

693
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: make a hit in America. You could have a lot

694
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,000
Speaker 1: of bands that are great, but if they don't have

695
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 1: that hit song that gets all over the radio, it's

696
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 1: never really gonna make it, you know. And wish One

697
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 1: never really had that killer song. I mean, they had

698
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:15,960
Speaker 1: some songs that worked in the worldands for instance, or

699
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 1: this town or that town, but overall, it just never

700
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 1: was an act that had that winning song. And the

701
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,320
Speaker 1: vocals were okay, you know, the musicianship was great, but

702
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 1: that really wasn't enough to make them a big, big deal.

703
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: It made them an okay deal, you know. But I

704
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,280
Speaker 1: learned a lot, you know. It took me out across

705
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,279
Speaker 1: the country. I did shows all over America. I got

706
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 1: involved with other groups, so I would say they were

707
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: a learning experience, and uh, I valued that and it

708
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 1: it came to be a great bunch of lessons and

709
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: I applied to the police in later years. So how

710
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 1: did you get involved with the Climax blues band? That

711
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 1: was a band that I had heard records of them,

712
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 1: and they had a great guitar player and they had

713
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 1: great Volk goals. And I was in England obviously, and

714
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 1: I had seen them advertised, but they were abandoned. Had

715
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: been around for quite a while, but it never seemed

716
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 1: to be getting anywhere. And so I basically as a lark,

717
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,359
Speaker 1: I said to them, Um, you know, I called him

718
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 1: up and I said, look, I'm I'm a manager and

719
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 1: I would like to represent you. And I know you've

720
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: never been to America before. I could take you to

721
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: America and uh, you know, you don't have a manager,

722
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:27,399
Speaker 1: and I think I could help you. And they were

723
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 1: they basically put me off and uh. I kept calling

724
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 1: them and they kept putting me off. And then one

725
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 1: day I saw that they were playing in a local

726
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: club in London, and I called him up and said, look, well,

727
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: let me meet you in person at the club and uh,

728
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 1: let's see if we can work something out. Well, I

729
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 1: went down to the club. There's a place called the

730
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: Marquee Club on on Wardor Street in the West end

731
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: of London, and I'm there and of course they don't

732
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:55,719
Speaker 1: At the time they were supposed to meet, they didn't

733
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: show up, and I waited an hour and they never

734
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,800
Speaker 1: showed up. So I said, the hell with it, the

735
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 1: hell with them. I started walking back to my office

736
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 1: and I'm walking down the street and just as they

737
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 1: get to the street, corner of van comes whizzing by

738
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 1: and I almost hit me, you know, and in the

739
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,320
Speaker 1: band was the Climax blues band. They thought I was

740
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 1: sitting there on the street corner waiting for them to

741
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 1: pass by, that that was that keen and on signing them.

742
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 1: Actually I had said to hell when I was going home,

743
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: but they waved and I realized it was them. So

744
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:28,799
Speaker 1: I walked back to the Marquee Club and they were

745
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 1: Now they were like Okay, this guy must be real.

746
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,879
Speaker 1: He was so keen, honest, he waited on the street

747
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,479
Speaker 1: corner for us. So we made a deal. I became

748
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 1: the manager. So were you involved with them when they

749
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 1: had their big hits like I Couldn't Get It Right

750
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 1: and who I Love You? Yeah, they couldn't get it right?

751
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 1: Was really Uh. They had delivered an album and they

752
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 1: had no hit on it, and I said to them, guys,

753
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 1: you know I can make you much bigger than you are,

754
00:36:58,080 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 1: but you've got to have that hit song and I

755
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 1: don't hear it on the record, so you've got to

756
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: go back to the studio. And I put up a

757
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 1: bunch of names that have songs that I thought they

758
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 1: could cover that might work. But they were against that,

759
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 1: and they said, well, I think we have one, and

760
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 1: they went and they wrote Couldn't Get It Right, And

761
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 1: we went into studio and cut that. When I heard it,

762
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 1: I realized that was the song that we needed, and

763
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 1: of course it was. It went to number three in

764
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 1: America and I think a number five in England and

765
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 1: that that was the first big hit they had. Um

766
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 1: and uh. So I I do take some credit for

767
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:31,759
Speaker 1: the fact that I pushed them to come up with

768
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 1: the hit song, and that did um project them into

769
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 1: a bigger marketplace. But by that time I was always

770
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:44,800
Speaker 1: having my own troubles financially and we ended up partying ways,

771
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 1: and later on they had the song I Love You,

772
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 1: which I was not part of. Okay, tell me more

773
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 1: about these financial troubles. Partly because wish vawon Ash was

774
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 1: a group that couldn't really I mean, we're not going

775
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: to come up with a hit song. They were really

776
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 1: going to make it live. And most of the bands

777
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 1: I was working with, including Glimyss bands were great live bands,

778
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,879
Speaker 1: where you know, you're dealing with an audience, and what's

779
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:09,959
Speaker 1: live is a bit different than than a hit single

780
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: on the radio, you know. So I figured if I

781
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 1: could make the bands succeed through big concerts, then that

782
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: would get them to be big enough, you know, that

783
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 1: would break them wide open. And one of the markets

784
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: where we were had not really broken yet was Europe.

785
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 1: And so I dreamed that this idea that if I

786
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,840
Speaker 1: could put Wishbone Ash on with some other big acts

787
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 1: and make it look like Wishbone was a headlighter, and

788
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: we go do all these festivals in Europe, and I

789
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 1: go spend the money to hire you know, Blue Red

790
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 1: and John McLaughlin and all these various acts that we

791
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 1: were working with. We were thinking about that I could

792
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 1: make Wishbone Ash and Climax and the other bands I

793
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 1: was working with look good, and in concept it was

794
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 1: sort of a lot of pellucidt before a lot of pelluction. Conceptually,

795
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 1: it was great and it worked. The problem was a

796
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,280
Speaker 1: lot of the technicalities of it were difficult and very expensive,

797
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 1: and pretty soon I was cleaned out of money. I

798
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,439
Speaker 1: just had didn't didn't have the money to finance something

799
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 1: like this. I mean, we we hired two planes and

800
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: we go load up the equipment on the airplanes, you know,

801
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 1: and I was thinking, in't that great? We got our own,

802
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 1: our own planes. You know. The pilot shows up, realizes

803
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 1: the plane super overweight with all equipment. He says, get

804
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,320
Speaker 1: that shut off my plane. You know, that was the

805
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 1: start of our troubles. I had to hire trucks to

806
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 1: carry the equipment to the next show, and one thing

807
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 1: after another. Then lou Reid didn't show up. So we're

808
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 1: trying to find out what happened to lou Reid, and

809
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,800
Speaker 1: uh turns out he was in Australia, you know. So

810
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: I caught his agent, who was William Marson the time,

811
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 1: and they said, well we we we've got a we've

812
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: got a phone number for you, but uh um, you

813
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 1: have to deal with it yourself. So I finally get

814
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: him in his hotel room and in uh Australia, and

815
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 1: his friend Rachel answers the phone said, uh uh hi,

816
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,439
Speaker 1: smiles Copeland. I wanted to know when lou Reid's gonna

817
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:06,839
Speaker 1: show up, because you know the dates are in a week.

818
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 1: We needed no when we can pick him up at

819
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 1: the airport, and only well, uh, lou uh doesn't know

820
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 1: about the tour. He said, well, what do you mean

821
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 1: I know about the door? Is it gonna talk to Louis? Well,

822
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 1: he's in the bathroom. I said, well, I'll wait, and

823
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 1: Rachel says, well, he's been here for three days, so

824
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: it's gonna be a lot of weight. But but what

825
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 1: do you mean three days? Well, he's been in there

826
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 1: three days and he won't come out. So I knew

827
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 1: by then we were in deep trouble. Of course, lou

828
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 1: Reid never showed up. He had fired the agent beforehand, apparently,

829
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 1: so I had to scamper around and find that we

830
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 1: we finally found a Continua Turner to do the shows

831
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 1: in his place. But of course we're trying to book

832
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:49,839
Speaker 1: them at the last minute, so of course the price

833
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 1: tag went went up. Anyway, I got cleaned out, I was,

834
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 1: I was on the verge of bankruptcy, and that was

835
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 1: really the start of me. I mean, I lost everything.

836
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 1: My brother's store was in curved there, and Climax Blues

837
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: Band eventually left, Wishbone left, everybody left because I had

838
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 1: no money, you know. But that was when the punks

839
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 1: were coming along and nobody paid attention to them, and

840
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 1: they had no money. So I knew what I was

841
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 1: doing and had no money, and they didn't know what

842
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:18,319
Speaker 1: they were doing and had no money. So we were

843
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 1: we were like destined to be together. So what was

844
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 1: your next move with the punks? Well, I realized that

845
00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 1: they were you know, you couldn't help but pick up

846
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 1: the British newspaper, which was the National Press, and the punks,

847
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 1: you know, the sex pistols, the class they were all

848
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:38,719
Speaker 1: over the newspapers, you know, but the music press just

849
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,320
Speaker 1: shunned them, you know, And I kept thinking, well, you know,

850
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 1: they're all over the press. And there's all this craziness

851
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 1: and nobody pays attention to them, and everybody says they're losers.

852
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: You know, maybe I can help, you know. And it

853
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 1: just so happened that Malcolm mclair and the manager of

854
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 1: the Sex Pistols, had an office above where I was working.

855
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 1: I had gone back to an old office friend of

856
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 1: mine that had loan be his office, and I said,

857
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 1: you know, can I come into your office? And I

858
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 1: needed a place to work, and Malcolm McLaren was upstairs,

859
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 1: so I'd go upstairs and say, uh, Malcolm, I've been

860
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 1: reading in the papers and no one will book the

861
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 1: sex Pistols. But you know, I called a friend of

862
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 1: mine at the Marquee Club and he'll book the sex

863
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 1: bistess Um. Sorry, miss, I'm sorry, we can't do it.

864
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 1: We're the pistols are busy that day. So I'd go

865
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 1: back downstairs. I called the Marquee Club. I said, look,

866
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 1: you know, give me another day. So three or four

867
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 1: times I did this, and third, four or fourth time

868
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 1: I went up to Malcolm. I said, okay, I got

869
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 1: like three more shows and could you do any of these?

870
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:41,800
Speaker 1: Finally he jumps up and starts screaming at me, don't

871
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 1: you get it? I get more pressed, saying they can't

872
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,000
Speaker 1: get gigs, that you're screwing up my whole rock, get

873
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 1: the funk out of my office. So I'm kind of

874
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 1: like stunned. I mean, but the papers saying you can't.

875
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:56,839
Speaker 1: No one will book the group. I just booked them,

876
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 1: and I'm walking out. I had a call from a

877
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,400
Speaker 1: promoter in Holland saying I'll book the sex Pistols. So

878
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:07,320
Speaker 1: as I'm walking out, and I said, okay, Malco, I

879
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,400
Speaker 1: get it, Okay, but I do have a gig in Holland.

880
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 1: I don't know if you'd be interested in that. He's, oh, hug,

881
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 1: I'll do that. I said, oh, okay, well it's so

882
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 1: I'll do Holland. He says, but I can't go, so

883
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:24,200
Speaker 1: you don't have to take the group. So I I

884
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 1: take the sex Pistols. I do the first shows in

885
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 1: out of England in Holland at the place called the Paradisoh,

886
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,399
Speaker 1: and uh I go off with Johnny Rotten and the gang.

887
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 1: This is before sid Vicius joined the group, and uh

888
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 1: I go off of the sex Pistols, which she, of

889
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 1: course gave me a great credibility with all the punks.

890
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,959
Speaker 1: Next thing I know, Billy Idol and all these punk

891
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:47,799
Speaker 1: bands are knocking at the door saying, well, could your

892
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 1: book shows for us? You know, So before I knew it,

893
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,680
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, I was the guy you went

894
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 1: to if you wanted to book a show for a

895
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:59,760
Speaker 1: punt group. So Susie and the Batshees and Billie Idols

896
00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 1: was a band called Generation X at the time. And

897
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 1: then it was a magazine called Sniffing Glue, which was

898
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 1: a run by a guy named Mark Perry. And he

899
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 1: comes into the office to do an interview with when

900
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,720
Speaker 1: one of the bands, and nextly I know, he's moved

901
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,960
Speaker 1: into the office, so all of us. Before I knew it,

902
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:19,800
Speaker 1: my office was Sniffing Glues office, And of course that

903
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 1: meant all the punt groups came to came there. And

904
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 1: next thing I know, I'm in the punt world, you know,

905
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 1: which was fine. Are you a manager, you a promoter?

906
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 1: What's your rong? A bit of everything? You know, with

907
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 1: with some some I'm managing and some I'm a promoter

908
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 1: and some I'm a you know. And then I had

909
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 1: friends in New York. I called an old manager friend

910
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 1: of mine who was a publicist that I'd used with

911
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 1: Wishfune and Climax called Jane Friedman, who was working with

912
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 1: Patti Smith and John Kale and and UH Television. And

913
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 1: I called her and said, Uh, You've got some mats

914
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 1: over there that might be interesting in England. You know,

915
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 1: I think I can get some shows for them. So

916
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,720
Speaker 1: so I brought Blondie and Television and tour them in England,

917
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 1: and John Kale got him into England and UH had

918
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,920
Speaker 1: him produced Squeeze, who I was who had just signed

919
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 1: for management, and I got him to work with the Police,

920
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 1: but they didn't get on at all, so then that

921
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 1: didn't work. But basically, before I knew it, I was

922
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 1: I was becoming the kind of the main hon show

923
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 1: in the punk world in England. So I started a

924
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 1: label with Mark Perry called Step Forward Records, and UH

925
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 1: I had Squeeze on Deptford Fund City Records and Stewart,

926
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 1: my brother Stewart and Wayne County, the Electric Chairs and

927
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 1: different bands on Illegal records. And I was in the

928
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,800
Speaker 1: punk world doing independent records and that's really how the

929
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,200
Speaker 1: Police got going. So how did that work out financially

930
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 1: for you? Well, because you could make a record for

931
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 1: eighty pounds, you know, and then I could I'd get

932
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:57,839
Speaker 1: in my car and I drive to a record store

933
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 1: and they'd buy the records. You know, they give me

934
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:02,840
Speaker 1: the cash right there, you know. So so I was

935
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 1: literally in the record business where not only was I

936
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:07,839
Speaker 1: in the studio making the record, I would then take

937
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,359
Speaker 1: the tapes to the master room to get the master done,

938
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 1: and then to the plate maker to make the plate,

939
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:16,320
Speaker 1: and then the label maker to get the label and

940
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 1: the sleep you know. So I was doing the lot,

941
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 1: but you could make enough that they would pay for

942
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 1: themselves because punks didn't really know who was who at

943
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:26,399
Speaker 1: the time, so the records either to the record store,

944
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 1: so they would kind of you go into the store

945
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 1: and say, well, here's my latest release, and they'd buy

946
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 1: five boxes, you know. So it was like, well that's great.

947
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 1: You know. Well it was great for about four or

948
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 1: five months, and then finally you'd walk in and I'd say, well,

949
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 1: here's my lass and said, okay, let me have a listen.

950
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 1: How many how many fans have they got? Whoops? The

951
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 1: bubble at burst? You know, but it was enough to

952
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 1: get going, you know, did that carry you through to

953
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:51,839
Speaker 1: the police. Yeah, it carried me through where we were.

954
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: We were handling the cramps and and and uh the

955
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 1: fall and Sham sixty nine and see Court, all these

956
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 1: different kind of bands. Uh, So we were sort of

957
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:07,239
Speaker 1: buzzing around. It was all sort of small time. But

958
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 1: in in London, you know that you could be kind

959
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,400
Speaker 1: of small time and be successful, you know. But with

960
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 1: the police, you know, nobody cared. And I found the

961
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 1: studio or a friend of mine found a studio actually,

962
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 1: and I could record the full album for a thousand pounds,

963
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 1: which you know today would be worth five six thou dollars.

964
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 1: So if we record the first Polate, which meant you know,

965
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 1: that's why I could offer it for free, you know,

966
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:32,560
Speaker 1: because it really didn't cost very much. If it had

967
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:35,120
Speaker 1: been a two hund three hundred thousand dollar deal, well,

968
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:36,880
Speaker 1: of course, you know you needed money to do that,

969
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 1: but the fact is that nobody needed money. In those days,

970
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 1: you could record for very little. Nobody was looking. You know,

971
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 1: a lot of the bands could hardly play, you know,

972
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,239
Speaker 1: I don't when I first saw the Clash, I wasn't

973
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:50,400
Speaker 1: sure they knew that those things at the top of

974
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 1: the guitar were for tuning the strings. You know, okay,

975
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: but going to the police. What's it like working with

976
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 1: your brother? Well, I guess in some ways it was strange,

977
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:06,279
Speaker 1: but in some ways, you know, I'd give him his

978
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 1: first job, you know, which was one as a tour

979
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 1: manager for Joan Armor Trading. He had just gotten out

980
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:16,759
Speaker 1: of college, and I said, look, I've just taken on

981
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 1: this act. Would you be the tour manager? And off

982
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,239
Speaker 1: he goes to America with Joan Armor Trading, and then

983
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:24,800
Speaker 1: later he comes. When he comes back, I had just

984
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 1: signed up a violin player by the name of Daryl

985
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:30,759
Speaker 1: Way who had a group called Curved Air, and they

986
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:33,359
Speaker 1: were looking for a drummer. And cut a long story short,

987
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 1: you know, he Darrell figured well, as Stewart's in the

988
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 1: band and he's Miles's brother, Myles will probably pay more

989
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 1: attention to it. So Stewart gets a gig and Curved Air,

990
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:45,839
Speaker 1: and Curved Air goes out and it is reasonably successful. Well,

991
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,800
Speaker 1: they were another casualty of the big fatal tour I

992
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 1: did in Europe, you know, the Star Treking tour, which

993
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 1: was a disaster and put me near bankruptcy. So that's

994
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,760
Speaker 1: when Stewart decided that you know, all this high falutant

995
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:00,320
Speaker 1: bands with lots of equipment and Rhodies and knows what.

996
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 1: Let's strip it all down to the simplest possible thing.

997
00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:05,360
Speaker 1: And that's when he came up with the idea of

998
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:09,320
Speaker 1: three people and one roadie and very little equipment like

999
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 1: all the punks basically, which meant that for a guy

1000
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:14,719
Speaker 1: like me who had no money, you know, you could

1001
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 1: actually do And they were not precious about having to

1002
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 1: be in big famous studios or whatever else. So what

1003
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 1: I said, I can record your album for a thousand pounds.

1004
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: They were gaged. They had nothing to lose. And then

1005
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 1: what comes first? Urga music War I r S. I

1006
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,359
Speaker 1: r S came first because when I when I got

1007
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:38,799
Speaker 1: to England with the police and they started happening, Um,

1008
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:41,879
Speaker 1: I had a lot of bands back in England were saying,

1009
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:44,080
Speaker 1: well what about us, you know, we we want to

1010
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:46,759
Speaker 1: have a little shot in America too, you know. So

1011
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 1: I figured that I needed to find a way to

1012
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 1: get their records out in America. I mean, I was

1013
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 1: bringing them in imports and selling them some of the

1014
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 1: imports stores, but that really wasn't satisfying any of the acts.

1015
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:02,319
Speaker 1: So so I went to Jerry Moss and I said, well,

1016
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 1: I figured A and M is already sort of on

1017
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 1: side in a sense. I mean they were they were

1018
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:09,680
Speaker 1: sort of fans in a way. And and since the

1019
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:12,839
Speaker 1: police didn't cost him a lot of money, and uh,

1020
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:15,759
Speaker 1: they kind of figured I was onto something, but they

1021
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 1: didn't know quite what yet. So I went into Jerry

1022
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:20,359
Speaker 1: Moss and I said, I'll tell you what. I've got

1023
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:23,320
Speaker 1: these bands in England, and I'm gonna make you the

1024
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 1: same kind of deal I made for the police in

1025
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:30,239
Speaker 1: the beginning. I don't need your money. I just need

1026
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:32,879
Speaker 1: you to put the records out. So I'm gonna give

1027
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:34,920
Speaker 1: you the records for free and you give me a

1028
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:38,239
Speaker 1: label unless your own sales people decide, you know, how

1029
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 1: many they're gonna press up. Let them vet the thing.

1030
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 1: I mean, it's down to you not you know, so

1031
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 1: there's no risk. And uh he said, okay, sounds fair enough.

1032
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 1: Let me hear the records. I said, ah, I said,

1033
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 1: that's that's that's the only CAVEAT said, you can't hear

1034
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:57,080
Speaker 1: the music. I said, you have to put out whatever

1035
00:50:57,120 --> 00:50:59,799
Speaker 1: I give you, But your own sales people can tell

1036
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:01,839
Speaker 1: you how many should press up. You know, if they

1037
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:05,479
Speaker 1: want to press up five, no problem, but you can't

1038
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:07,399
Speaker 1: listen to music. Because I knew if he heard the music,

1039
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 1: if he heard the buzz Cox and he heard Chelsea

1040
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:13,760
Speaker 1: and he heard he would say no, so lo and behold.

1041
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:16,399
Speaker 1: He said, okay, I'll give me the deal. And then

1042
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 1: I went out and signed the buzz Cox. The good

1043
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:22,839
Speaker 1: news was the bands like the buzz Cox and later

1044
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:24,279
Speaker 1: the you know, a lot of the lot of the

1045
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:27,360
Speaker 1: punk bands could not get deals in America. So if

1046
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 1: somebody came along to him and said, look, i'll put

1047
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 1: your record out in America, but I can't pay your money.

1048
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,440
Speaker 1: I'll give you a good royalty, a lot of them said, okay,

1049
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:36,520
Speaker 1: that sounds good to me. So I was signing up

1050
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 1: bands for next to nothing, and I didn't need a

1051
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 1: lot and the police were beginning to make a little

1052
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:44,440
Speaker 1: bit of money at this time, so I didn't need

1053
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:47,520
Speaker 1: a lot of money to launch a label. And uh,

1054
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:50,319
Speaker 1: you know, the Cramps had a had songs they had

1055
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,760
Speaker 1: already recorded. The buzz Cox. I picked up the record

1056
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 1: that had already been recorded in England. Um, and I

1057
00:51:57,320 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 1: kind of went down the list and picked up bands

1058
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:01,760
Speaker 1: that nobody else was interested in. They couldn't get deals

1059
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:04,520
Speaker 1: in America and they ain't M gave me a label

1060
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 1: and my first employee. As another sort of example is

1061
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 1: my first employee was somebody that had just gotten fired

1062
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:17,320
Speaker 1: actually from the A and M College department. And I

1063
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:19,399
Speaker 1: knew I couldn't afford any money, so I said, I'll

1064
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:22,320
Speaker 1: tell you what. I'll make you vice president of the label,

1065
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:24,719
Speaker 1: which for a college kate it was like a big deal.

1066
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 1: But I can only pay you a hundred bucks a week.

1067
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 1: I figured all his friends would think he was crazy,

1068
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 1: but he didn't and he ended up becoming a big,

1069
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 1: big deal and U record business. So who was it

1070
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:38,759
Speaker 1: was a guy named Jay bo Berg, you know. But

1071
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 1: it was really a matter of making things so cheap

1072
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:43,960
Speaker 1: that the answer had to be yes. I mean, that

1073
00:52:44,080 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 1: was part of my sales pitch was, look, if you

1074
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:49,759
Speaker 1: make the answer an easy yes, you're likely to get it. Yes.

1075
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:52,440
Speaker 1: If if Jay had said to me, well, I need

1076
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 1: fifty tho dollars a year salary or I'm not doing it,

1077
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 1: I would have said, well, hell were you know, I'm

1078
00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:58,960
Speaker 1: not hiring you. You know, if Jerry, if if I

1079
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 1: had gone to Jerry Moss and said, look, I got

1080
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 1: all these acts in England and I need a hundred

1081
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:05,279
Speaker 1: thousand dollars to launch a label. He was said, get

1082
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:07,440
Speaker 1: the funk out of my office. You know, if I'd

1083
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:09,560
Speaker 1: gone into the A and M guy in England and said, look,

1084
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:11,239
Speaker 1: I got this big, great band, the Police, but I

1085
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 1: need X, you know, they would have said, sorry, mate,

1086
00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:16,520
Speaker 1: no deal. You know, so I I'm a lot of

1087
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:18,959
Speaker 1: the best deals I ever made were for no money

1088
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:21,759
Speaker 1: up front. But that opened the door. It made it

1089
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:26,320
Speaker 1: easy for somebody to say yes. And what were the

1090
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:28,680
Speaker 1: first records that got the notice of A and M

1091
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 1: that were on I R S. Well, actually, after the

1092
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:33,920
Speaker 1: first year you would have thought, yeah. I mean, the

1093
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 1: bus Cocks did twenty five thousand albums, which made actually

1094
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 1: made a profit for A and M. You know, not

1095
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:40,840
Speaker 1: a lot, but at least it was a profit. You know,

1096
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 1: the Craft sold a bit, and uh, the Wall of

1097
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 1: Voodoo and whatever, you know, but none of them are

1098
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 1: really big hits of any course. So Jerry Moss calls

1099
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 1: me into his office to Miles, sorry to tell you this,

1100
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 1: but let's close the label. You haven't had a hit.

1101
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 1: You put out eight records and they've all nobody. They

1102
00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 1: haven't any hits. I saidn't been Jerry, Uh, did you

1103
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:05,040
Speaker 1: make money out of I RS of the first year?

1104
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:07,480
Speaker 1: He said yeah, well but not a lot, you know.

1105
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 1: I said, yeah, but you made a property right He said, yes,

1106
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:13,920
Speaker 1: that's true. I said, how many deals have you ever

1107
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 1: done in your career in the music business? Unless you

1108
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:18,040
Speaker 1: remember this is a guy that had the Carpenters and

1109
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 1: Peter Frampton and huge list of acts, one of the

1110
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:24,759
Speaker 1: most respected labels in America. I said, how many deals

1111
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 1: have you ever done in your career in which the

1112
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 1: first year you made money on the on the deal?

1113
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:32,759
Speaker 1: He said, well, actually probably none. I said yes, but

1114
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 1: you made money on my deal, didn't you. He said yeah,

1115
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:37,239
Speaker 1: But now I said yes, And I said, let me

1116
00:54:37,280 --> 00:54:40,359
Speaker 1: ask you another question. I said, how many records does

1117
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:43,320
Speaker 1: the normal acts have before they really break big and

1118
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:46,160
Speaker 1: become a major act. He said, well, it's usually the

1119
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:50,080
Speaker 1: third album. And I said, well, I put out eight records. Yes,

1120
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:53,399
Speaker 1: but everyone was the first album of the act. None

1121
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:56,399
Speaker 1: of those acts have got the album three. He said, yeah,

1122
00:54:56,480 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 1: you're right. Okay, I'll give you another year, so I

1123
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:02,920
Speaker 1: r S carried on for another year. At the end

1124
00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:07,480
Speaker 1: of that year, we signed The Go Goes and shortly thereafter,

1125
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:11,080
Speaker 1: The Go Goes went the number one in the US charts,

1126
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:15,120
Speaker 1: the first girl group to ever have a number one

1127
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:17,840
Speaker 1: album in America where they played the music themselves and

1128
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:21,920
Speaker 1: wrote all the songs. So it was our first number one.

1129
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 1: It was the biggest album of the year. It was

1130
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:29,279
Speaker 1: a momentous event. Actually in Showtime just had a documentary

1131
00:55:29,280 --> 00:55:31,239
Speaker 1: at on the Go Goes actually, which kind of goes

1132
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:36,120
Speaker 1: through the the the importance of that record. But the

1133
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:38,239
Speaker 1: funny thing about The Go Gos was, I was the

1134
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:42,640
Speaker 1: only person at any of the shows willing to sign

1135
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:46,680
Speaker 1: this group. And was it directly done by you? Yeah?

1136
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 1: I I signed him, And uh it was not. I

1137
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:52,880
Speaker 1: mean there was money involved, but it was not not

1138
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 1: a lot. I mean I couldn't have afforded the major

1139
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:58,759
Speaker 1: deals that people were doing, you know. So they had

1140
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:00,839
Speaker 1: to be reasonable because they had there was no place

1141
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 1: else to go. Their manager had was was had had

1142
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:07,400
Speaker 1: come and got to deal with me, and I said, look,

1143
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 1: I want to sign the group. She went back to

1144
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:12,800
Speaker 1: the only other label that had registered you know what

1145
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:15,480
Speaker 1: looked like might be interested, which was a Lecture Records,

1146
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 1: and Elector said, no, we're not signing girl groups. So

1147
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:20,320
Speaker 1: she had no place to go. She came back to

1148
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:23,800
Speaker 1: me and said, okay, we'll sign with you. And I

1149
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:26,600
Speaker 1: went in and negotiated the deal and it was, you know,

1150
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:30,279
Speaker 1: more than I wanted to spend, but a lot less

1151
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 1: than they thought they were deserved. And uh, I signed

1152
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 1: the group, and uh, I mean to me, you know,

1153
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:41,480
Speaker 1: five girls who sang, who played well and had energy

1154
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:44,719
Speaker 1: and were enthusiastic, and that just seemed like a great

1155
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,040
Speaker 1: marketing think to me, you know, and how bad could

1156
00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:49,239
Speaker 1: it be? Of course, I had no idea the album

1157
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 1: go to number one, you know. I figured, you know,

1158
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:54,400
Speaker 1: top forty be good, you know, but it just seemed

1159
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:57,480
Speaker 1: to me a winner. But all the other labels went

1160
00:56:57,560 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 1: by the rules. They said, well, there's never been a

1161
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:01,840
Speaker 1: girl group that had a big hit record, so we

1162
00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,600
Speaker 1: don't want to side a girl group then never even

1163
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:07,759
Speaker 1: heard the music. And that was sort of how I

1164
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:09,920
Speaker 1: built I r S. I. I went with what I

1165
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 1: listened to, and I thought, you know, that's good, I'll

1166
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:16,840
Speaker 1: sign it. And who decided that Richard Gonnerer would produce

1167
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:20,400
Speaker 1: that record. I decided that I had met Richard when

1168
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:23,920
Speaker 1: he was producing the clim X Blues band, and he

1169
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:26,680
Speaker 1: did the Blondie album, which I toured in England. So

1170
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 1: I had known Richard from the Sire Records days, and

1171
00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 1: I knew he was unlike the average producer in that

1172
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:38,640
Speaker 1: he was kind of new school and that he had

1173
00:57:38,720 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 1: just done Blondie. But he was also a songwriter. He

1174
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:45,320
Speaker 1: he his his career started as a songwriter, so I

1175
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 1: knew he knew the mechanics of a hit song. And

1176
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:50,640
Speaker 1: I felt that Go Go has had songs, you know,

1177
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:54,200
Speaker 1: and he just seemed to be the right sensibility for me.

1178
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:57,920
Speaker 1: And uh. I talked him into doing it at a

1179
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:02,720
Speaker 1: price much us and he would normally get. But that's

1180
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:04,720
Speaker 1: all I had. Really, I didn't have the money, you know.

1181
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 1: I said, Richard, can you do the album for this price?

1182
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:10,560
Speaker 1: And he wasn't sure, and I said, well, let me

1183
00:58:10,720 --> 00:58:12,720
Speaker 1: send you the group and I think you're gonna like him,

1184
00:58:12,760 --> 00:58:15,440
Speaker 1: you know. And he did and uh, and he recorded them,

1185
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 1: but of course he went over budget, and he went

1186
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:22,480
Speaker 1: about seven thousand dollars over budget. Calls me and says Miles, uh, uh,

1187
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:25,000
Speaker 1: I'm over budget seven thousand. I need you to send

1188
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:26,600
Speaker 1: me the money. And I said, Richard, I'm sorry, I

1189
00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:30,560
Speaker 1: don't have the money. And uh, I said, I said,

1190
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 1: you better hope the record sells, because that's the only

1191
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:36,800
Speaker 1: way you're gonna get your money back. So luckily for him,

1192
00:58:36,880 --> 00:58:45,720
Speaker 1: the record sold okay. And then how does urga music

1193
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:48,720
Speaker 1: were the movie come to be? Well, I was at

1194
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:53,680
Speaker 1: the time becoming the I guess I R S and

1195
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:56,440
Speaker 1: the Police, and we were sort of at the bandwagon

1196
00:58:56,520 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 1: of the you know, at the front of the vanguard

1197
00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:01,959
Speaker 1: of the whole new music scene. So when Michael White,

1198
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:06,000
Speaker 1: the producer, had this idea about doing a movie, he

1199
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:08,280
Speaker 1: called me up and said, would you be interested in

1200
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:11,280
Speaker 1: h helping me produce this movie. I want to make

1201
00:59:11,320 --> 00:59:13,720
Speaker 1: a movie about all these great, fun little groups that

1202
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:16,080
Speaker 1: are going on around the world, and it's just gonna

1203
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:18,200
Speaker 1: be a movie about you know, we just fold each

1204
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 1: of the groups. There's no real storyline or whatever. And

1205
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:23,240
Speaker 1: I said, well sure. You know, for me, it was

1206
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 1: another way I was figuring, you know, I want to

1207
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:29,240
Speaker 1: get exposure for these people, you know, because the radio

1208
00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:32,360
Speaker 1: was still not totally on board yet, you know, and TV,

1209
00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:36,680
Speaker 1: MTV hadn't started yet, and you know, anyway we could

1210
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:39,360
Speaker 1: get exposure to me was hey, if you if you

1211
00:59:39,480 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 1: if you'll get the exposure, Hey, I'm your guy, you know,

1212
00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:44,520
Speaker 1: so I said, sure, I'll help you. And of course

1213
00:59:44,640 --> 00:59:48,160
Speaker 1: I roped in the Police and all the bands I

1214
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 1: was working with, plus all sorts of other bands, you know,

1215
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:53,680
Speaker 1: to give it credibility. We got as many bands as

1216
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:59,480
Speaker 1: we could. So ERG was basically Michael White had the idea,

1217
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:01,800
Speaker 1: and he got the money together, and I got the

1218
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:06,200
Speaker 1: bands together, and you got the record. Yeah. I got

1219
01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:08,440
Speaker 1: A and M to put the record out. I didn't.

1220
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 1: It became an A and M record. I mean again,

1221
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:13,120
Speaker 1: it was there was some money involved, and at the

1222
01:00:13,160 --> 01:00:15,600
Speaker 1: time I didn't have any money, so I gave it

1223
01:00:15,680 --> 01:00:17,920
Speaker 1: to A and M. Let's go back to the police.

1224
01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:21,920
Speaker 1: Police are relatively unique in that every album was bigger

1225
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 1: than the previous one, and they were all successful during

1226
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:28,160
Speaker 1: this run. Did you ever go back to A and

1227
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:34,080
Speaker 1: M and renegotiate? Uh? Yes? And no? Okay, first place, Uh,

1228
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:38,920
Speaker 1: your first statement is incorrect. Okay. In America, okay, the

1229
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:42,720
Speaker 1: first record went out and did very well. The second

1230
01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 1: record was released in America and did three quarters of

1231
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:49,800
Speaker 1: what the first one did, so it was not as successful.

1232
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:54,120
Speaker 1: In England. The opposite happened. The first record was released

1233
01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:57,520
Speaker 1: in England and just almost disappeared without a trace. The

1234
01:00:57,600 --> 01:01:01,240
Speaker 1: second album went straight to number one and it was

1235
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:05,280
Speaker 1: complete bedlam in England. Okay it was you know, we

1236
01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 1: had three hit single, three number one hit singles in

1237
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 1: a row. So England and Europe was completely different to America.

1238
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:15,000
Speaker 1: America was a slow build. It wasn't until the fifth

1239
01:01:15,080 --> 01:01:16,960
Speaker 1: album that the Police had a number one record in

1240
01:01:17,040 --> 01:01:19,680
Speaker 1: America and that was became the Synchronicity, and you know,

1241
01:01:19,800 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 1: that became the biggest album. But the second album was

1242
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:27,480
Speaker 1: not not the biggest, uh. It was was about well,

1243
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 1: I think the first album went out did like half

1244
01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:31,840
Speaker 1: a million. Second album that, you know, three hundred thousand,

1245
01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:35,320
Speaker 1: you know, it wasn't it takes time to build America,

1246
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:39,440
Speaker 1: you know, and but in England it was quick. The

1247
01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:43,960
Speaker 1: second album just went gang busters crazy, you know, and

1248
01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:46,040
Speaker 1: in Europe was saying the same a lot of around

1249
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:48,200
Speaker 1: the world. So the police were really bigger around the world,

1250
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:51,240
Speaker 1: faster than they were in America. So you had to

1251
01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:53,240
Speaker 1: have a different strategy in each part of the world,

1252
01:01:53,280 --> 01:01:54,880
Speaker 1: which is part of the reason why I went around

1253
01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 1: the world with the police, because I knew that those

1254
01:01:57,560 --> 01:02:02,160
Speaker 1: photographs to do well in places like You're up Japan, Australia,

1255
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:05,040
Speaker 1: whatever it is, it would help in America, but in

1256
01:02:05,120 --> 01:02:08,120
Speaker 1: America it's really you know, you're battling station by station

1257
01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:10,680
Speaker 1: by station by station. You know, as part of the

1258
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:14,320
Speaker 1: problem of our system in America, you know there're how

1259
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:18,320
Speaker 1: many national radio stations are there? You know, well, you

1260
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:21,240
Speaker 1: know there aren't really you know, so it was a

1261
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:23,280
Speaker 1: louder Okay, you could be big in Boston, but you'd

1262
01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:27,800
Speaker 1: be unknown in l A. You know. So America takes

1263
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:29,600
Speaker 1: this time, whereas in England you get on the BBC

1264
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 1: and you've got the whole country day one, you know,

1265
01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:35,720
Speaker 1: so a lot of European countries in the same way.

1266
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:39,000
Speaker 1: You know, you have one national station pretty much covers

1267
01:02:39,040 --> 01:02:41,720
Speaker 1: the country, whereas in America it's a it's a much

1268
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:46,320
Speaker 1: slower building. Yeah, so what about renegotiating. Okay, as far

1269
01:02:46,320 --> 01:02:51,160
Speaker 1: as we renegotiated, but of course, um after the it

1270
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:54,560
Speaker 1: wasn't until the second or third record though, well, actually

1271
01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:57,520
Speaker 1: the second record became huge in England. And I had

1272
01:02:57,560 --> 01:02:59,560
Speaker 1: a lawyer who was who was a very famous lawyer,

1273
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:04,000
Speaker 1: caller Groupman, and he always figured, well, you know, his

1274
01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:07,120
Speaker 1: famous quote was, it's not about the money, It's about

1275
01:03:07,160 --> 01:03:10,920
Speaker 1: the money. So his view was, if you could renegotiate,

1276
01:03:11,080 --> 01:03:14,520
Speaker 1: go get the money. They albou the royalty, you know,

1277
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:19,680
Speaker 1: just get the money. So it wasn't long before, you know,

1278
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:22,480
Speaker 1: we went in and renegotiated, and I think we probably

1279
01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:24,640
Speaker 1: renegotiated on every album, you know, to get a bit

1280
01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:27,640
Speaker 1: more wealthy points. And sure we got higher royalty points

1281
01:03:27,720 --> 01:03:29,680
Speaker 1: and we got more money and all that, and the

1282
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:33,360
Speaker 1: police did very well, you know. But often I think

1283
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:36,720
Speaker 1: back and I think, well, what really is the smartest strategy,

1284
01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:41,880
Speaker 1: because there was an opposite strategy which I was uniquely

1285
01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:45,160
Speaker 1: aware of, and that was the R. E M strategy.

1286
01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:50,800
Speaker 1: I signed R E M for dollars because my brother

1287
01:03:50,920 --> 01:03:53,360
Speaker 1: Ian had met them and down he wasn't making Georgia

1288
01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:55,800
Speaker 1: and they were in Athens, Georgia, and he told me

1289
01:03:55,840 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 1: and he said, look, you gotta sign this group, you know,

1290
01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:00,720
Speaker 1: And so I signed him, you know, and they built

1291
01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:04,360
Speaker 1: a lot of fans in the in the company, and uh,

1292
01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:08,560
Speaker 1: every record did more than the last that correct. Next

1293
01:04:08,600 --> 01:04:11,880
Speaker 1: record was you know, seventy, next record was a hundred

1294
01:04:11,880 --> 01:04:14,080
Speaker 1: and fifty thousand, and they kept creeping up and every

1295
01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:18,000
Speaker 1: advance would go higher. And as we began to realize

1296
01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:19,840
Speaker 1: this was a group that was going places. You know,

1297
01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:22,320
Speaker 1: I would they call him in the office and speak

1298
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:24,720
Speaker 1: to the manager and say, look, we'd like to give

1299
01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:29,560
Speaker 1: you more money and uh per record and increase your

1300
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:32,840
Speaker 1: royalties and uh in return, you know it, give us

1301
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:34,439
Speaker 1: a couple more records at the end of the deal.

1302
01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:39,400
Speaker 1: And their response was, well, look, we're fine. You know,

1303
01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:43,320
Speaker 1: we got enough money. We don't need anymore. We're happy

1304
01:04:43,360 --> 01:04:45,720
Speaker 1: with the deal as it is. So you know what,

1305
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:47,640
Speaker 1: we'll just do the deal and we'll go through the

1306
01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:50,920
Speaker 1: contract and at the end of the deal, we'll come

1307
01:04:50,960 --> 01:04:53,680
Speaker 1: to you and say, well we're open now, and you know,

1308
01:04:53,800 --> 01:04:55,560
Speaker 1: we'll wait for an offer from you and from the

1309
01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:58,480
Speaker 1: open market, and we'll see what happens. He said, but

1310
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:00,920
Speaker 1: you know, we love your company and you know we're

1311
01:05:00,960 --> 01:05:03,240
Speaker 1: open for anything. You know, but no, we don't need

1312
01:05:03,560 --> 01:05:06,040
Speaker 1: so I couldn't renegotiate. So the next record went out

1313
01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:08,600
Speaker 1: was bigger, and you know, we got to the last

1314
01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:11,960
Speaker 1: album and I'm thinking we're gonna lose r E M.

1315
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:15,880
Speaker 1: You know, so of course trying to renegotiate. Look, we'll

1316
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:18,680
Speaker 1: even give you, we'll back date the royalties, you know,

1317
01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:22,400
Speaker 1: we'll we'll give you back your masters. You know, No,

1318
01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:26,160
Speaker 1: we're fine, We're fine. We're fine. Meanwhile, like where is

1319
01:05:26,240 --> 01:05:28,800
Speaker 1: the police? Renegotiated every time, and then Sting when I

1320
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:31,960
Speaker 1: was managing this thing, renegotiated his contract every time, and

1321
01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:35,439
Speaker 1: you know, he made more and more money. I made

1322
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:38,440
Speaker 1: more money, you know. But then R A M go

1323
01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:41,600
Speaker 1: off and the deal's over, and they come to me

1324
01:05:41,680 --> 01:05:43,920
Speaker 1: and say, well, the deal's over. We love your you know,

1325
01:05:44,040 --> 01:05:47,440
Speaker 1: we love I RS. So we're going to the marketplace

1326
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:49,520
Speaker 1: and you can make an offer like everybody else, and

1327
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:53,120
Speaker 1: we're gonna go with the best offer. So the money

1328
01:05:53,160 --> 01:05:54,560
Speaker 1: went up and up, and you know, I got to

1329
01:05:54,600 --> 01:05:56,360
Speaker 1: a point it was three million, and it's like that

1330
01:05:56,440 --> 01:05:57,760
Speaker 1: was about as far as I could go. And I

1331
01:05:57,800 --> 01:06:00,480
Speaker 1: went to Jerry Moss and he said, well, I'll help you.

1332
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:03,760
Speaker 1: I'll put up a couple of million, you know. And

1333
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:08,000
Speaker 1: the group comes in and says, well, we've just been

1334
01:06:08,040 --> 01:06:11,560
Speaker 1: to Warner Brothers and they're offering more than that. And

1335
01:06:11,720 --> 01:06:13,560
Speaker 1: I went back to Jerry and it said, Jerry, can

1336
01:06:13,600 --> 01:06:16,280
Speaker 1: you we're gonna lose R. E M. Can you up

1337
01:06:16,360 --> 01:06:19,160
Speaker 1: the offer? And he said I could. We're at five million.

1338
01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:20,760
Speaker 1: I mean, we can't go more than that, you know,

1339
01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:24,120
Speaker 1: and they want they want their their masters back and said,

1340
01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:27,360
Speaker 1: I can't do that. So I brought the managers back

1341
01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:30,120
Speaker 1: in again. And they're very honorable guys. I have to

1342
01:06:30,160 --> 01:06:33,640
Speaker 1: admit they were really good people. And they said, look, Miles,

1343
01:06:33,720 --> 01:06:36,480
Speaker 1: we've just been back to Warner Brothers and here's what

1344
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:40,120
Speaker 1: they just told us. And then here's here's the letter

1345
01:06:40,240 --> 01:06:44,360
Speaker 1: contract and they said, whatever Miles offers you will pay

1346
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:50,240
Speaker 1: you double. And I said, guys, I looked at that

1347
01:06:50,360 --> 01:06:54,160
Speaker 1: paper with incredutibility. I looked at that thing, and I said, guys,

1348
01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:59,200
Speaker 1: here's my advice. Get out of my office right now,

1349
01:07:00,160 --> 01:07:04,080
Speaker 1: go straight to Warner Brothers. Signed that deal before they

1350
01:07:04,240 --> 01:07:08,120
Speaker 1: changed their mind. And I gotta say, that's the best

1351
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:13,680
Speaker 1: deal iver Seed and guys, congratulations, I'm proud of and

1352
01:07:14,160 --> 01:07:17,680
Speaker 1: they left. They went to Warner Brothers and they signed

1353
01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:21,480
Speaker 1: the biggest record deal in history. And then again when

1354
01:07:21,560 --> 01:07:24,200
Speaker 1: that deal expired and all their rights returned and they

1355
01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:27,120
Speaker 1: resigned again. They made the biggest record deal in the

1356
01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:29,640
Speaker 1: history of the music business. And I have to say

1357
01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:32,040
Speaker 1: that now when I look back at it, and I say,

1358
01:07:32,440 --> 01:07:36,040
Speaker 1: the Alan grouping method of hitting him every renegotiate, every

1359
01:07:36,080 --> 01:07:38,400
Speaker 1: deal and up the money and whatever. Versus the R

1360
01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:40,280
Speaker 1: and D r M deal. R E M made more

1361
01:07:40,320 --> 01:07:45,520
Speaker 1: money than the police, a lot more because they ended

1362
01:07:45,600 --> 01:07:49,960
Speaker 1: up with total freedom to get all the rights of

1363
01:07:50,080 --> 01:07:54,680
Speaker 1: back to their masters, and it just ended up being

1364
01:07:54,720 --> 01:07:57,600
Speaker 1: a phenomenal deal. They actually did do it historically, the

1365
01:07:57,600 --> 01:08:00,760
Speaker 1: biggest record deal ever. Okay, as a manager, how much

1366
01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:04,400
Speaker 1: do you charge? Uh? In the case of the police,

1367
01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:07,040
Speaker 1: we were all on it together, so we we we

1368
01:08:07,160 --> 01:08:10,720
Speaker 1: split it four away, so everybody made and out of

1369
01:08:11,720 --> 01:08:13,200
Speaker 1: I gave part of it. I gave my I gave

1370
01:08:14,240 --> 01:08:16,200
Speaker 1: to a partner who was with the police every single

1371
01:08:16,280 --> 01:08:21,200
Speaker 1: day on the road, so I was making less. But

1372
01:08:21,360 --> 01:08:26,599
Speaker 1: the management commission was The management commissions historically go from

1373
01:08:26,680 --> 01:08:32,040
Speaker 1: fift Some managers take as much as and it really

1374
01:08:32,080 --> 01:08:35,200
Speaker 1: depends on what the manager's offering, and it depends on

1375
01:08:35,600 --> 01:08:39,880
Speaker 1: the negotiating position of the group, all sorts of things. Well,

1376
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:42,640
Speaker 1: you've managed a lot of bands, do you commission the

1377
01:08:43,360 --> 01:08:47,320
Speaker 1: recording budget? Do you take from the net on the road?

1378
01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:50,439
Speaker 1: What kind of deals do you I think you can't

1379
01:08:50,479 --> 01:08:53,320
Speaker 1: really record from the recording budget because the band doesn't

1380
01:08:53,360 --> 01:08:57,640
Speaker 1: receive that. I re commissioned what they get. Okay, I

1381
01:08:57,720 --> 01:09:03,240
Speaker 1: don't commission um money that goes to recording studio whatever

1382
01:09:04,680 --> 01:09:07,520
Speaker 1: on the on the concerts. You know, I I commissioned

1383
01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:10,479
Speaker 1: the profit of the concerts, you know. Okay, do you

1384
01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:14,920
Speaker 1: still get paid on police records? Yes. And one of

1385
01:09:15,080 --> 01:09:17,560
Speaker 1: one of the things I was very precious about was

1386
01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:23,160
Speaker 1: to say, look, I am not into renting myself as

1387
01:09:23,240 --> 01:09:27,040
Speaker 1: a manager. If I'm gonna roll on my starta fleaves

1388
01:09:27,080 --> 01:09:29,400
Speaker 1: and fight for you guys, we're all in this together,

1389
01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:33,040
Speaker 1: so let's be in it all the way. I'm not

1390
01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:35,519
Speaker 1: gonna be simply working for you for five years and

1391
01:09:35,560 --> 01:09:40,280
Speaker 1: then I get nothing, Although nowadays some acts think that

1392
01:09:40,400 --> 01:09:42,479
Speaker 1: that's fair, you know. So if some act came to

1393
01:09:42,600 --> 01:09:45,880
Speaker 1: me and they were already successful so that I could

1394
01:09:46,240 --> 01:09:47,960
Speaker 1: bank the money, you know, and then it was like

1395
01:09:48,080 --> 01:09:51,680
Speaker 1: a no brainer I could. I could say, Okay, so

1396
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:55,559
Speaker 1: you're gonna pay me. I'm gonna automatically make X million

1397
01:09:55,640 --> 01:09:58,800
Speaker 1: dollars a year, so okay, you know what, after five years,

1398
01:09:59,160 --> 01:10:01,120
Speaker 1: you're free to go on your your own. In that case,

1399
01:10:01,160 --> 01:10:03,360
Speaker 1: I would say okay, because there's no risk I'm gonna

1400
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:06,280
Speaker 1: make money. I've heard of a manager saying well, okay,

1401
01:10:06,320 --> 01:10:08,000
Speaker 1: I'll manage an act and I would make it. You

1402
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:09,880
Speaker 1: paid me a million dollars a year and I'll manage it.

1403
01:10:10,680 --> 01:10:12,800
Speaker 1: I'd say, that's not a bad management deal because you're

1404
01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:14,760
Speaker 1: making a million dollars a year and have you're only

1405
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:17,920
Speaker 1: doing it for five years. Well okay, but the police

1406
01:10:18,680 --> 01:10:22,080
Speaker 1: nobody wanted the police. It was a pure risk. I

1407
01:10:22,280 --> 01:10:25,559
Speaker 1: invested in the first album. I paid for that first album.

1408
01:10:25,880 --> 01:10:29,640
Speaker 1: I paid for that first tour. Okay, so I invested.

1409
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:34,400
Speaker 1: It's something which had almost everybody said it was a

1410
01:10:34,479 --> 01:10:38,160
Speaker 1: no hoper, but all four of us were in it together.

1411
01:10:38,360 --> 01:10:40,800
Speaker 1: So that was really why I kept my rot. Did

1412
01:10:40,840 --> 01:10:43,800
Speaker 1: you have paper with the band? Yeah. Eventually, after after

1413
01:10:43,920 --> 01:10:46,080
Speaker 1: we made the record deal and the record went out

1414
01:10:46,200 --> 01:10:49,280
Speaker 1: and started successful, we made we made a deal and

1415
01:10:50,120 --> 01:10:51,680
Speaker 1: that's when they said, well I have to, you know,

1416
01:10:51,840 --> 01:10:54,760
Speaker 1: have a partner. And I agreed. Actually out there was

1417
01:10:54,800 --> 01:10:58,479
Speaker 1: only fair. I mean, I've always been someone that agreed

1418
01:10:58,640 --> 01:11:02,800
Speaker 1: that you you've got somebody good working with, you give

1419
01:11:02,880 --> 01:11:05,200
Speaker 1: them a reward more than just a salary, which is

1420
01:11:05,280 --> 01:11:08,560
Speaker 1: why I gave a percentage of the record company to

1421
01:11:08,760 --> 01:11:12,880
Speaker 1: j Bowberg. I gave a percentage of Police. Most of

1422
01:11:12,920 --> 01:11:16,200
Speaker 1: the companies I've done business with, I've always given one

1423
01:11:16,280 --> 01:11:17,920
Speaker 1: of the key people in the company a piece of

1424
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:20,559
Speaker 1: the action, so that they felt that it was more

1425
01:11:20,640 --> 01:11:23,880
Speaker 1: than just a job, that it was their like And

1426
01:11:24,280 --> 01:11:26,160
Speaker 1: that's always worked for me. I've never been afraid to

1427
01:11:26,840 --> 01:11:31,599
Speaker 1: give part of the you know, the business away. Now

1428
01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:34,479
Speaker 1: A and M was ultimately sold to Polygraham gobbled up

1429
01:11:34,560 --> 01:11:37,360
Speaker 1: becomes part of Universal. Have they ever approached you to

1430
01:11:37,439 --> 01:11:40,600
Speaker 1: buy out your royalty stream? Okay, they came to me

1431
01:11:42,320 --> 01:11:44,000
Speaker 1: when when the I R S here was coming to

1432
01:11:44,080 --> 01:11:46,240
Speaker 1: a close, Jerry called me in and said, look, would

1433
01:11:46,240 --> 01:11:48,320
Speaker 1: you be interested in selling the label? And I said, well,

1434
01:11:48,360 --> 01:11:52,400
Speaker 1: I'm not opposed to it, except that I'm not gonna

1435
01:11:52,439 --> 01:11:56,439
Speaker 1: just sell it. What I would do is will make

1436
01:11:56,479 --> 01:11:59,120
Speaker 1: a financial deal, but I want you to exchange I

1437
01:11:59,280 --> 01:12:01,599
Speaker 1: R S sharfs A and M shares, give me shares

1438
01:12:01,640 --> 01:12:03,960
Speaker 1: of A and M, so we're all in this together.

1439
01:12:05,080 --> 01:12:09,040
Speaker 1: And he agreed. He said that sounds like a reasonable deale.

1440
01:12:09,280 --> 01:12:11,040
Speaker 1: Of course, I wasn't expecting. I mean, A and M

1441
01:12:11,080 --> 01:12:13,040
Speaker 1: was a lot bigger label than I RS was, and

1442
01:12:13,120 --> 01:12:15,160
Speaker 1: I wasn't expecting to walk away with half the label.

1443
01:12:15,240 --> 01:12:17,760
Speaker 1: But you know, five ten percent of A and M

1444
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:20,600
Speaker 1: would have been worth millions of dollars, you know. So

1445
01:12:22,080 --> 01:12:24,840
Speaker 1: a couple of weeks later, I go back and said, okay, um,

1446
01:12:25,520 --> 01:12:27,800
Speaker 1: you're ready to make an offer. So what's the offering is? Well,

1447
01:12:27,840 --> 01:12:30,760
Speaker 1: I can't actually give you shares because we're a sub

1448
01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:33,960
Speaker 1: chapter S corporation, and that means I can't give you

1449
01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:35,880
Speaker 1: shares in the company, but we're prepared to buy you

1450
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:39,120
Speaker 1: and he and he pulled out some daughter figure which

1451
01:12:39,240 --> 01:12:41,200
Speaker 1: was really just not very interesting to me, and I

1452
01:12:41,560 --> 01:12:45,439
Speaker 1: got so angry I stormed out of the office. And uh.

1453
01:12:45,600 --> 01:12:47,840
Speaker 1: Of course, Jerry and I later became very good friends,

1454
01:12:47,880 --> 01:12:50,479
Speaker 1: and in some ways I wish I had figured some

1455
01:12:50,560 --> 01:12:52,439
Speaker 1: way to do a deal with him, because when we

1456
01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:54,599
Speaker 1: went to m C A was really not quite the same.

1457
01:12:54,760 --> 01:12:57,599
Speaker 1: And then we went to m I and whatever whatever.

1458
01:12:57,720 --> 01:13:00,759
Speaker 1: You know, we became the corporation and we really didn't

1459
01:13:00,760 --> 01:13:03,120
Speaker 1: want to become. But it was a lesson. I mean,

1460
01:13:03,160 --> 01:13:05,040
Speaker 1: I learned a lot of lessons along the way. You

1461
01:13:05,120 --> 01:13:07,760
Speaker 1: know what what the corporate world really is. You know,

1462
01:13:08,120 --> 01:13:10,280
Speaker 1: when IRA started and when the police started, we were

1463
01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:12,679
Speaker 1: flying by the seat of our pants. We had nothing

1464
01:13:12,760 --> 01:13:15,960
Speaker 1: to lose. Everything was cheap. I could be crazy. I

1465
01:13:16,040 --> 01:13:18,960
Speaker 1: could sign crazy acts, and I signed a lot of

1466
01:13:19,000 --> 01:13:23,280
Speaker 1: crazy acts, you know. Um, but they were ones where

1467
01:13:23,320 --> 01:13:24,840
Speaker 1: I could afford it, you know, and the ones that

1468
01:13:24,960 --> 01:13:28,680
Speaker 1: if if they didn't work, too bad, you know. But

1469
01:13:28,760 --> 01:13:32,360
Speaker 1: it was fun on the way, you know. Um. Whereas

1470
01:13:32,400 --> 01:13:34,200
Speaker 1: when you all of a sudden part of the corporation

1471
01:13:34,320 --> 01:13:37,840
Speaker 1: and they're talking millions of dollars and whatever, they want

1472
01:13:37,880 --> 01:13:40,200
Speaker 1: to see hit records, and they're not interested in whether

1473
01:13:40,320 --> 01:13:42,439
Speaker 1: you have an act that's cool or not. They're interested

1474
01:13:42,439 --> 01:13:44,920
Speaker 1: in whether you're selling records or not. And that's quite

1475
01:13:44,960 --> 01:13:46,880
Speaker 1: a jolt for someone like me, you know, to be

1476
01:13:47,000 --> 01:13:50,840
Speaker 1: thrown out of the world of doing something this hip

1477
01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:54,560
Speaker 1: and cool, and you know you're you're doing it for

1478
01:13:54,680 --> 01:13:57,720
Speaker 1: the for the love of the music, versus you have

1479
01:13:57,920 --> 01:14:00,800
Speaker 1: to make numbers or they're gonna fire, you know. So

1480
01:14:01,800 --> 01:14:05,880
Speaker 1: that's okay. So who owns the Masters of I RS today? Well,

1481
01:14:05,960 --> 01:14:09,000
Speaker 1: now it's all owned by Universal And how did that

1482
01:14:09,080 --> 01:14:12,960
Speaker 1: come to me? Well? Universal Body and M Universal Body,

1483
01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:17,400
Speaker 1: m C A UM Universal Body, am I. You know.

1484
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:20,360
Speaker 1: So I ended up selling I R S E M

1485
01:14:20,439 --> 01:14:24,600
Speaker 1: I UM because we needed the money and E M

1486
01:14:24,680 --> 01:14:27,519
Speaker 1: I made us a pretty nice offer. And they were

1487
01:14:27,560 --> 01:14:31,320
Speaker 1: busy trying to build their their their business and I

1488
01:14:31,439 --> 01:14:33,160
Speaker 1: looked at it and said, well, you know, the business

1489
01:14:33,200 --> 01:14:36,040
Speaker 1: has changed. It's not as fun anymore. And you know,

1490
01:14:36,320 --> 01:14:38,240
Speaker 1: we've been at it long enough and about time that

1491
01:14:38,320 --> 01:14:40,200
Speaker 1: I made something because I never made anything out of

1492
01:14:40,280 --> 01:14:44,479
Speaker 1: virus at the beginning. You know, Um, I had staff

1493
01:14:44,520 --> 01:14:47,000
Speaker 1: that were getting paid, but I wasn't. You know, it

1494
01:14:47,120 --> 01:14:48,880
Speaker 1: was a labor of love basically, if I was making

1495
01:14:48,920 --> 01:14:51,560
Speaker 1: money managing the police in staying you know, so I

1496
01:14:51,640 --> 01:14:54,200
Speaker 1: never really thought about money. But when we sold the

1497
01:14:54,200 --> 01:14:57,200
Speaker 1: E M I, they ended up buying the label, and

1498
01:14:57,280 --> 01:15:00,080
Speaker 1: then of course Universal buy C M I. And they

1499
01:15:00,120 --> 01:15:02,360
Speaker 1: owned the Beatles. You know, they owned Frank Sinaga, they

1500
01:15:02,439 --> 01:15:05,040
Speaker 1: owned I R S, they owned the Police, they owned

1501
01:15:05,040 --> 01:15:08,479
Speaker 1: the lot. Okay, you're on both sides of it. You've

1502
01:15:08,479 --> 01:15:12,840
Speaker 1: been a manager, and you've also cut royalties, meaning you've

1503
01:15:12,880 --> 01:15:17,719
Speaker 1: paid royalties. Traditionally it's an opaque system and the labels

1504
01:15:17,760 --> 01:15:20,160
Speaker 1: don't pay a hundred cents on the dollar. What can

1505
01:15:20,200 --> 01:15:22,320
Speaker 1: you tell us about that, both in terms of what

1506
01:15:22,479 --> 01:15:27,200
Speaker 1: you paid and also trying to collect. Well, you know,

1507
01:15:27,320 --> 01:15:31,000
Speaker 1: there's like every single deal, there's two sides to it.

1508
01:15:32,360 --> 01:15:36,000
Speaker 1: I would say that since the record business, it's sort

1509
01:15:36,040 --> 01:15:40,080
Speaker 1: of like everybody says well, nine out of ten acts failed. Well,

1510
01:15:40,760 --> 01:15:43,599
Speaker 1: nine out of ten acts were financed by the record companies.

1511
01:15:44,120 --> 01:15:46,160
Speaker 1: So let's say the act fails and they got an

1512
01:15:46,160 --> 01:15:49,599
Speaker 1: advance of two hundred thousand dollars. Okay, So the record

1513
01:15:49,680 --> 01:15:52,479
Speaker 1: company gives the act two hundred thousand dollars, They spend

1514
01:15:52,520 --> 01:15:54,600
Speaker 1: a hundred thousand making the record, and they pocket a

1515
01:15:54,680 --> 01:15:58,679
Speaker 1: hundred thousand. Record goes out in bombs. Record label lost

1516
01:15:58,720 --> 01:16:02,640
Speaker 1: two hundred thousand dollars. The act made money for a

1517
01:16:02,680 --> 01:16:05,679
Speaker 1: short time, so the labeled was a loser in that deal.

1518
01:16:07,080 --> 01:16:11,960
Speaker 1: Now one out of that one out of ten succeeded. Well,

1519
01:16:12,080 --> 01:16:15,160
Speaker 1: from a business standpoint, the label is thinking, well, that

1520
01:16:15,400 --> 01:16:18,400
Speaker 1: one that succeeds has got to pay for all those losers.

1521
01:16:19,479 --> 01:16:21,880
Speaker 1: So obviously we can't pay a hunter. But you know,

1522
01:16:21,960 --> 01:16:25,080
Speaker 1: we can't pay like there was no losers because they

1523
01:16:25,120 --> 01:16:27,040
Speaker 1: don't know who's gonna be the winner and who's the loser.

1524
01:16:27,720 --> 01:16:31,920
Speaker 1: So in most record deals they have to figure that, Okay,

1525
01:16:32,520 --> 01:16:35,320
Speaker 1: we can pay a royalty to the act, or a

1526
01:16:35,400 --> 01:16:38,519
Speaker 1: fifteen percent royalty or attention, whatever the number is. Okay,

1527
01:16:38,840 --> 01:16:41,400
Speaker 1: But he gets up to about you. You're getting to

1528
01:16:41,479 --> 01:16:44,479
Speaker 1: the sort of upper reaches of the big superstar deals,

1529
01:16:44,560 --> 01:16:48,720
Speaker 1: you know. But then they've got to do marketing. They've

1530
01:16:48,720 --> 01:16:51,519
Speaker 1: gotta pay for the staff, they gotta pay for buying

1531
01:16:51,760 --> 01:16:54,479
Speaker 1: records onto the radio. All the amount of money that

1532
01:16:54,560 --> 01:16:57,000
Speaker 1: it costs to make a record happen. So I would

1533
01:16:57,080 --> 01:17:01,439
Speaker 1: argue that record labels in many cases, or in most cases,

1534
01:17:01,560 --> 01:17:04,760
Speaker 1: lose money on an act. Yes, they make money on

1535
01:17:04,840 --> 01:17:07,920
Speaker 1: the winning acts, and they do so because it helps

1536
01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:10,519
Speaker 1: pay for the loser acts. And I've known loser a

1537
01:17:10,600 --> 01:17:12,960
Speaker 1: big big winner acts that says, well, why should I

1538
01:17:13,040 --> 01:17:15,680
Speaker 1: pay for the losers? And I'd say, well, you know what,

1539
01:17:15,800 --> 01:17:18,680
Speaker 1: You're right, But then again, who was to know you

1540
01:17:18,840 --> 01:17:20,920
Speaker 1: were a winner? You could have just as easily been

1541
01:17:21,000 --> 01:17:24,280
Speaker 1: one of those losers. Let's assume you're a winner. And

1542
01:17:24,400 --> 01:17:28,640
Speaker 1: the contract says ex royalty. Traditionally labels don't pay a

1543
01:17:28,760 --> 01:17:31,760
Speaker 1: hundred cents on the dollar on that. Well, they don't

1544
01:17:31,760 --> 01:17:33,679
Speaker 1: pay a hundred cents on the dollar because they gotta

1545
01:17:33,680 --> 01:17:36,240
Speaker 1: pay for the pressing. No no, no, no no. When

1546
01:17:36,280 --> 01:17:38,920
Speaker 1: we get to the net, okay, and we look at

1547
01:17:38,960 --> 01:17:43,679
Speaker 1: the contract, it says, let's just assume teen percent royalty.

1548
01:17:43,760 --> 01:17:45,960
Speaker 1: The net net net is a million dollars. I should

1549
01:17:45,960 --> 01:17:49,360
Speaker 1: get a hundred thousand dollars. Okay, it seems like the

1550
01:17:49,439 --> 01:17:53,160
Speaker 1: record company doesn't pay that hundred thousand dollars. Hasn't that

1551
01:17:53,280 --> 01:17:57,479
Speaker 1: been your experience? It really depends on the company what

1552
01:17:57,600 --> 01:17:59,720
Speaker 1: the deal is going to be. I've never I've not

1553
01:18:00,040 --> 01:18:02,640
Speaker 1: had a problem with I mean, I didn't have a

1554
01:18:02,680 --> 01:18:04,519
Speaker 1: problem they and am they paid. We did. We did

1555
01:18:04,560 --> 01:18:06,640
Speaker 1: audits on labels, so we did find money, but we

1556
01:18:06,680 --> 01:18:09,040
Speaker 1: didn't find very much, and a lot most of it

1557
01:18:09,120 --> 01:18:11,519
Speaker 1: was accounting mistakes. Okay, there are there have been some

1558
01:18:11,680 --> 01:18:14,120
Speaker 1: labels have been been crooked, you know, And that's just

1559
01:18:14,240 --> 01:18:16,639
Speaker 1: the fact of life, you know. And and the reality

1560
01:18:16,800 --> 01:18:19,439
Speaker 1: is their accident crooked and they're labels that are crooked.

1561
01:18:19,920 --> 01:18:23,880
Speaker 1: And believe me, I've seen both. Okay. But when you

1562
01:18:24,040 --> 01:18:26,959
Speaker 1: look at the finances of the record business, you realize

1563
01:18:27,000 --> 01:18:29,320
Speaker 1: that a lot of money is thrown away, and a

1564
01:18:29,360 --> 01:18:32,240
Speaker 1: lot of it stupidly, to tell you the truth. Um.

1565
01:18:32,760 --> 01:18:34,439
Speaker 1: And that's the reason why a lot of the deals

1566
01:18:34,439 --> 01:18:35,760
Speaker 1: a lot as good as it should be for the

1567
01:18:35,840 --> 01:18:39,200
Speaker 1: winner acts because the labels are losing on the losers.

1568
01:18:40,200 --> 01:18:42,599
Speaker 1: They gotta make it on the winners. And a lot

1569
01:18:42,640 --> 01:18:44,680
Speaker 1: of the labels also, one of the things I learned

1570
01:18:44,680 --> 01:18:47,559
Speaker 1: when they got d M I is that a lot

1571
01:18:47,600 --> 01:18:51,400
Speaker 1: of the executive salaries are whopping salaries, you know, way

1572
01:18:51,520 --> 01:18:54,799
Speaker 1: higher than it should be. And that the the salaries

1573
01:18:54,840 --> 01:18:56,880
Speaker 1: of the executives, I mean, they're more interested in the

1574
01:18:57,000 --> 01:19:00,080
Speaker 1: shares and the salaries and there are you know, they

1575
01:19:00,479 --> 01:19:02,519
Speaker 1: they want to up their fees because they want to

1576
01:19:02,520 --> 01:19:05,479
Speaker 1: break some act. So they bury the loser acts. And

1577
01:19:05,600 --> 01:19:08,439
Speaker 1: they waved the flag saying, look I I signed so

1578
01:19:08,600 --> 01:19:11,719
Speaker 1: and so you know. So I have a mixed feeling about,

1579
01:19:12,000 --> 01:19:14,280
Speaker 1: you know, whether deals are fair or not. And I

1580
01:19:14,320 --> 01:19:16,840
Speaker 1: would have to say, having been on both sides of

1581
01:19:16,880 --> 01:19:19,840
Speaker 1: the deal, I've seen things that are unfair on the

1582
01:19:19,880 --> 01:19:22,040
Speaker 1: record side and not seeing things that are unfair on

1583
01:19:22,080 --> 01:19:25,000
Speaker 1: the act side. But nine times out of ten, it's

1584
01:19:25,040 --> 01:19:26,800
Speaker 1: the act that makes the money and the record label

1585
01:19:26,840 --> 01:19:32,360
Speaker 1: the loses. Okay, do you foresee the police breaking up

1586
01:19:32,720 --> 01:19:37,000
Speaker 1: and how do you end up as the manager's sting? Well?

1587
01:19:37,080 --> 01:19:39,560
Speaker 1: I think Sting was smart enough to know that, you know,

1588
01:19:39,760 --> 01:19:42,880
Speaker 1: it takes a lot more than you know one guy

1589
01:19:43,000 --> 01:19:45,400
Speaker 1: writing songs and putting a band together. You know, you

1590
01:19:45,479 --> 01:19:47,720
Speaker 1: need an organization behind you. And he knew that I

1591
01:19:47,880 --> 01:19:49,920
Speaker 1: was good at what I was doing. And he also

1592
01:19:50,000 --> 01:19:53,960
Speaker 1: knew that I was good at let's call it thinking

1593
01:19:54,000 --> 01:19:56,160
Speaker 1: out of the box, not being stuck in some kind

1594
01:19:56,200 --> 01:19:58,240
Speaker 1: of rules, you know, and he wanted to break the rules,

1595
01:19:58,400 --> 01:20:01,759
Speaker 1: you know. And uh, in the case of the police,

1596
01:20:01,880 --> 01:20:04,080
Speaker 1: none of us really wanted the police to break up,

1597
01:20:04,160 --> 01:20:06,160
Speaker 1: even Sting, I mean, because it was kind of like

1598
01:20:06,240 --> 01:20:09,760
Speaker 1: the Golden Goose. So if you remember back, nobody really

1599
01:20:09,800 --> 01:20:13,200
Speaker 1: made an announcement, Okay, the police are broken up. Now

1600
01:20:13,280 --> 01:20:17,080
Speaker 1: Stings solo, it kind of like, well, we're not really

1601
01:20:17,160 --> 01:20:19,200
Speaker 1: saying the police broke up, even though we kind of

1602
01:20:19,280 --> 01:20:22,880
Speaker 1: think they have. But Sting is gonna do a solo

1603
01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:25,639
Speaker 1: record and maybe he'll do another police album. We don't

1604
01:20:25,760 --> 01:20:29,160
Speaker 1: really know. And it wasn't until Andy Summers did a

1605
01:20:29,200 --> 01:20:31,960
Speaker 1: solo record a couple of years later that he had

1606
01:20:32,240 --> 01:20:34,560
Speaker 1: as a publicity he kind of said, well, really, the

1607
01:20:34,560 --> 01:20:36,720
Speaker 1: police are kind of broken up, you know, But we

1608
01:20:36,880 --> 01:20:39,680
Speaker 1: always kind of hit it. None of us wanted to

1609
01:20:39,760 --> 01:20:44,240
Speaker 1: say definitively the police are broken up, because it was

1610
01:20:44,360 --> 01:20:47,400
Speaker 1: kind of like killing something that was an asset. Why

1611
01:20:47,479 --> 01:20:51,200
Speaker 1: if you don't have to, um, you know, a lot

1612
01:20:51,200 --> 01:20:53,160
Speaker 1: of people knew, I mean, Sting knew, I kind of

1613
01:20:53,240 --> 01:20:56,240
Speaker 1: knew that Sting didn't really want to do The Police again,

1614
01:20:56,360 --> 01:21:01,200
Speaker 1: especially when his solo career had happened. Um, what did

1615
01:21:01,280 --> 01:21:05,120
Speaker 1: I want to go out and announce it? No? Okay?

1616
01:21:05,240 --> 01:21:07,800
Speaker 1: What's the thrill for you in the process? Is that

1617
01:21:07,920 --> 01:21:11,040
Speaker 1: the music itself is the marketing, is the ride? What

1618
01:21:11,240 --> 01:21:15,800
Speaker 1: turns you on? And how's you doing this? I don't

1619
01:21:15,840 --> 01:21:18,960
Speaker 1: know that I would put my finger on one thing,

1620
01:21:19,120 --> 01:21:20,920
Speaker 1: but there is a kind of a thrill in taking

1621
01:21:21,040 --> 01:21:26,200
Speaker 1: something that everybody says is a loser and making it

1622
01:21:26,320 --> 01:21:28,920
Speaker 1: a huge winner. There's there's a lot of fun in

1623
01:21:29,040 --> 01:21:31,880
Speaker 1: that in a way. It's but but then again, that

1624
01:21:32,040 --> 01:21:33,800
Speaker 1: make it seem like I'm saying, well, I want to

1625
01:21:33,880 --> 01:21:35,639
Speaker 1: go out and say I told you so. Well, It's

1626
01:21:36,760 --> 01:21:38,719
Speaker 1: it's not really that. There is a kind of a thrill,

1627
01:21:38,880 --> 01:21:41,000
Speaker 1: you know when I when I when we did The

1628
01:21:41,080 --> 01:21:44,400
Speaker 1: Police and UH at a London show and I hired

1629
01:21:44,439 --> 01:21:47,599
Speaker 1: a half track to drive us. We we did an

1630
01:21:47,600 --> 01:21:50,960
Speaker 1: opening show with Hammerson palis Amage with Odian for three

1631
01:21:51,000 --> 01:21:54,759
Speaker 1: thousand people, the right upmarket, cool venue across the street.

1632
01:21:54,800 --> 01:21:57,040
Speaker 1: We decided we go a little more punky with a

1633
01:21:57,160 --> 01:22:00,639
Speaker 1: stand up venue called the Hammersmonth Palais. I figured, well,

1634
01:22:00,720 --> 01:22:02,800
Speaker 1: you know, to get across the intersection. We should have

1635
01:22:02,920 --> 01:22:05,639
Speaker 1: some kind of cool image. Let's let's get an army

1636
01:22:05,680 --> 01:22:07,160
Speaker 1: hat track and we'll put the band in the back

1637
01:22:07,200 --> 01:22:09,400
Speaker 1: of it. We'll drive across the street and look kind

1638
01:22:09,439 --> 01:22:12,320
Speaker 1: of cool in the photographs. Of course, when we went

1639
01:22:12,360 --> 01:22:13,920
Speaker 1: out of backstage and we got in the hat track

1640
01:22:14,000 --> 01:22:17,759
Speaker 1: and we drove out in the intersection, it was complete bedroom.

1641
01:22:17,840 --> 01:22:20,519
Speaker 1: There were thousands of people are Luckily I had hired

1642
01:22:20,600 --> 01:22:22,759
Speaker 1: a hat track, and we couldn't have got across the street,

1643
01:22:22,880 --> 01:22:26,280
Speaker 1: you know, because there were thousands of fans and they're

1644
01:22:26,280 --> 01:22:28,280
Speaker 1: all screaming and yelling and wanting to get a piece

1645
01:22:28,320 --> 01:22:31,080
Speaker 1: of the police, you know, And that was thrilling, you know,

1646
01:22:31,240 --> 01:22:35,639
Speaker 1: to see people just were going crazy for something you had,

1647
01:22:36,120 --> 01:22:38,240
Speaker 1: you were helping making happen. That was great, you know.

1648
01:22:39,120 --> 01:22:41,040
Speaker 1: I mean, there were there were other times, like I

1649
01:22:41,240 --> 01:22:43,920
Speaker 1: was invited to be to give the keynote speech at

1650
01:22:44,200 --> 01:22:47,640
Speaker 1: the New New Music Seminar in New York. And the

1651
01:22:47,720 --> 01:22:49,360
Speaker 1: first couple of ones had a big, kind of small

1652
01:22:49,439 --> 01:22:51,200
Speaker 1: three or four hundred people. But this was one that

1653
01:22:51,240 --> 01:22:52,960
Speaker 1: which I had heard it was gonna be kind of big,

1654
01:22:53,000 --> 01:22:55,559
Speaker 1: and there was like three thousand people there and I've

1655
01:22:55,880 --> 01:22:58,160
Speaker 1: brought out. It was at the Hilton Hotel in New York,

1656
01:22:58,240 --> 01:22:59,800
Speaker 1: and I came came out to do my speech and

1657
01:23:00,320 --> 01:23:02,880
Speaker 1: looking out at a bank of people, of three thousands

1658
01:23:02,960 --> 01:23:05,920
Speaker 1: of people, thinking, wow, you know this is big. You know,

1659
01:23:06,479 --> 01:23:09,040
Speaker 1: I knew my speech. I walk off the stage and

1660
01:23:09,120 --> 01:23:11,040
Speaker 1: I'm I'm walking to the side of the door, and

1661
01:23:11,080 --> 01:23:12,560
Speaker 1: this girl comes up to me with a tape in

1662
01:23:12,600 --> 01:23:17,519
Speaker 1: her hand and looks at me and say uh, and

1663
01:23:17,680 --> 01:23:22,280
Speaker 1: she fainted right in front of me. I'm thinking, you know,

1664
01:23:22,479 --> 01:23:24,080
Speaker 1: my first in it was that I didn't touch her.

1665
01:23:24,080 --> 01:23:27,080
Speaker 1: I didn't touch her, you know, like she fainted. And

1666
01:23:27,160 --> 01:23:30,400
Speaker 1: I realized after she and she was coming so close

1667
01:23:30,479 --> 01:23:33,679
Speaker 1: to the person that she thought, by some magic could

1668
01:23:33,720 --> 01:23:35,559
Speaker 1: make her a big superstar. You know, she had her

1669
01:23:35,560 --> 01:23:37,840
Speaker 1: tape in her hand. She just fainted right in front

1670
01:23:37,880 --> 01:23:39,920
Speaker 1: of me. You know, she was so overcome to be

1671
01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:43,360
Speaker 1: into my presence. You know, that was a shock. You know,

1672
01:23:43,560 --> 01:23:46,080
Speaker 1: I'm just some guy, you know, and here's this girl

1673
01:23:46,160 --> 01:23:49,320
Speaker 1: fainting in front of me, you know. And I remember

1674
01:23:49,960 --> 01:23:52,600
Speaker 1: um sort of a similar experience. You know, when I

1675
01:23:52,640 --> 01:23:56,880
Speaker 1: went out to introduce the police at Shade Stadium. You know,

1676
01:23:57,800 --> 01:24:01,040
Speaker 1: eighty thousand people as me even a bit more, you know,

1677
01:24:01,880 --> 01:24:04,400
Speaker 1: and uh, I'm doing the introduction. So I walked out

1678
01:24:04,439 --> 01:24:08,200
Speaker 1: on stage and the minute I walk out, flash bulbs everywhere.

1679
01:24:08,320 --> 01:24:11,080
Speaker 1: The place was electric. That was screams, and I got

1680
01:24:11,200 --> 01:24:15,880
Speaker 1: ladies and gentleman this time, and the place went the

1681
01:24:16,200 --> 01:24:19,640
Speaker 1: zirk that at the roar of the crowd. I mean,

1682
01:24:20,160 --> 01:24:24,880
Speaker 1: it was so powerful. I did my introduction and walking

1683
01:24:24,960 --> 01:24:28,000
Speaker 1: up the stage and I was shaking with it, just

1684
01:24:28,400 --> 01:24:30,880
Speaker 1: the energy of it, you know, And I thought to myself,

1685
01:24:31,320 --> 01:24:32,880
Speaker 1: oh my god, look what it's done to me. I

1686
01:24:33,000 --> 01:24:36,040
Speaker 1: was on stage for a minute. Those guys are gonna

1687
01:24:36,080 --> 01:24:38,200
Speaker 1: be out there for an hour and a half. What's

1688
01:24:38,240 --> 01:24:42,880
Speaker 1: it gonna do to them? And you know, something people

1689
01:24:42,960 --> 01:24:46,280
Speaker 1: forget is that they went out there and they were

1690
01:24:46,400 --> 01:24:50,400
Speaker 1: dealing with I mean, people fainting and people going crazy,

1691
01:24:50,600 --> 01:24:53,439
Speaker 1: and I mean just the mediac this of it. It

1692
01:24:53,600 --> 01:24:56,200
Speaker 1: was unbelievable. I mean one of one of the funny

1693
01:24:56,280 --> 01:24:59,960
Speaker 1: stories that at that show, you know, everybody was showing

1694
01:25:00,080 --> 01:25:02,840
Speaker 1: get on stage, and at one point the security guy

1695
01:25:02,880 --> 01:25:05,040
Speaker 1: asked me if I could stay by the stairs because

1696
01:25:05,080 --> 01:25:06,479
Speaker 1: everybody is trying to get up, and he was like

1697
01:25:06,800 --> 01:25:09,439
Speaker 1: losing losing it, you know, And I said okay, I'll stop.

1698
01:25:09,680 --> 01:25:12,800
Speaker 1: So overcomes the manager of Joan Jett, who has been

1699
01:25:12,880 --> 01:25:16,000
Speaker 1: one of the opening acts, and a big burly guys

1700
01:25:16,040 --> 01:25:18,360
Speaker 1: coming right behind him, you know. And the manager comes out.

1701
01:25:18,400 --> 01:25:19,760
Speaker 1: But I know what he's gonna ask. You said, Miles,

1702
01:25:19,800 --> 01:25:21,719
Speaker 1: you know, do me a favor. You know, Joan Jets

1703
01:25:21,760 --> 01:25:24,120
Speaker 1: here with her mother, and you know our parents can

1704
01:25:24,200 --> 01:25:25,640
Speaker 1: can you put them on stage? And I said, look

1705
01:25:25,680 --> 01:25:29,000
Speaker 1: at the fire marshals up there right now, everybody and

1706
01:25:29,040 --> 01:25:31,320
Speaker 1: their mother. The police have got all there. I don't

1707
01:25:31,320 --> 01:25:33,800
Speaker 1: know what I know. If I put anybody else up there,

1708
01:25:33,880 --> 01:25:36,280
Speaker 1: they're gonna close the whole show down, you know. And

1709
01:25:36,360 --> 01:25:38,840
Speaker 1: he says, I understand, I understand, you know, but anything

1710
01:25:38,880 --> 01:25:40,360
Speaker 1: you can do. And I said, believe me, I'll do

1711
01:25:40,439 --> 01:25:43,280
Speaker 1: what I can. You know. He walks off. This big

1712
01:25:43,400 --> 01:25:46,960
Speaker 1: burly bouncer comes up and goes takes my hand and

1713
01:25:47,040 --> 01:25:49,240
Speaker 1: sort of, I know, Mr Copeland, I know what you're

1714
01:25:49,280 --> 01:25:52,240
Speaker 1: gonna do. What you're gonna do, right and I and

1715
01:25:52,320 --> 01:25:53,760
Speaker 1: he takes his hand and walks to and I look,

1716
01:25:53,840 --> 01:25:56,200
Speaker 1: there's a twenty dollar bill in my hand. The guy

1717
01:25:56,240 --> 01:25:59,599
Speaker 1: at timpt me. But to what Joe Jett other stage

1718
01:25:59,640 --> 01:26:02,599
Speaker 1: with what bucks? You know, so I go backstage the band.

1719
01:26:03,240 --> 01:26:06,559
Speaker 1: I say, guys, you will not believe what just happened.

1720
01:26:07,240 --> 01:26:08,840
Speaker 1: I'm going back to get them to bring them out

1721
01:26:08,840 --> 01:26:10,519
Speaker 1: on stage, you know. And I said, they said what

1722
01:26:10,720 --> 01:26:12,840
Speaker 1: I said? I said, Joe Jet's magic came up with

1723
01:26:12,920 --> 01:26:15,599
Speaker 1: some bouncer comes up. I just got tipped twenty bucks

1724
01:26:16,080 --> 01:26:19,240
Speaker 1: for putting somebody on stage. So Andy Summers said up

1725
01:26:19,240 --> 01:26:23,240
Speaker 1: to me and says, okay, give us our share. So

1726
01:26:23,400 --> 01:26:25,840
Speaker 1: I have to give up five bucks this big bid

1727
01:26:25,960 --> 01:26:28,679
Speaker 1: the Stewarts five to Andy, and I get five bucks,

1728
01:26:28,760 --> 01:26:31,479
Speaker 1: you know. So they were and they're looking at it, going,

1729
01:26:31,960 --> 01:26:33,960
Speaker 1: that's great, we just make five bucks with the show,

1730
01:26:34,040 --> 01:26:38,679
Speaker 1: and out they walked, you know. Okay. Traditionally or not traditionally,

1731
01:26:38,720 --> 01:26:41,640
Speaker 1: but a great number of managers end up going inside

1732
01:26:42,160 --> 01:26:45,720
Speaker 1: two labels. Were you ever offered the gig? Where you

1733
01:26:45,800 --> 01:26:50,920
Speaker 1: ever tempted you want? Did you want that? No? Not really?

1734
01:26:51,000 --> 01:26:52,960
Speaker 1: I mean I R S was my label. So in

1735
01:26:53,080 --> 01:26:55,799
Speaker 1: the way I had I was inside. I was inside

1736
01:26:55,880 --> 01:26:57,640
Speaker 1: E M I because we sold I R S, D

1737
01:26:57,880 --> 01:27:02,080
Speaker 1: M I, and so I became I was part. I

1738
01:27:02,280 --> 01:27:05,000
Speaker 1: realized what the corporate world was was once a year

1739
01:27:05,120 --> 01:27:07,320
Speaker 1: they would bring all the label heads together you know,

1740
01:27:07,880 --> 01:27:11,320
Speaker 1: they would have you know, Chris Lists and capital and whatever.

1741
01:27:11,439 --> 01:27:13,679
Speaker 1: We would all have to do our presentation for the year.

1742
01:27:14,479 --> 01:27:16,880
Speaker 1: And my I was very good friends with the head

1743
01:27:16,920 --> 01:27:18,479
Speaker 1: guy at E M I, who was the guy named

1744
01:27:18,520 --> 01:27:21,760
Speaker 1: Jim five Field. And after the presentation and we'd all

1745
01:27:21,840 --> 01:27:23,960
Speaker 1: all good art you know, talking about acts and all that,

1746
01:27:24,160 --> 01:27:26,559
Speaker 1: he would leave the room and the accountants would come

1747
01:27:26,600 --> 01:27:30,479
Speaker 1: in and they say, Okay, your target this year is X.

1748
01:27:31,040 --> 01:27:34,360
Speaker 1: You make that number, you get your Christmas bonus. I

1749
01:27:34,439 --> 01:27:36,639
Speaker 1: don't care how you do it. You can fire everybody

1750
01:27:36,720 --> 01:27:38,679
Speaker 1: and cut your overhead or you're gonna have a hit record,

1751
01:27:38,760 --> 01:27:41,280
Speaker 1: don't care. That's whatever you gotta make. You make that number,

1752
01:27:41,920 --> 01:27:44,120
Speaker 1: you get your Christmas bonus. You don't like that number,

1753
01:27:44,240 --> 01:27:47,680
Speaker 1: you don't get squatted. And we're sitting there at the

1754
01:27:47,760 --> 01:27:51,600
Speaker 1: end of the thing thinking, you know, what are we

1755
01:27:51,640 --> 01:27:54,040
Speaker 1: gonna do? Well, of course you gotta figure some way

1756
01:27:54,080 --> 01:27:55,960
Speaker 1: to get your Christmas bonus because that's all you're gonna

1757
01:27:56,000 --> 01:27:58,479
Speaker 1: make that year, you know. So that's the corporate world.

1758
01:27:58,560 --> 01:28:01,920
Speaker 1: You know, this whole idea about you know, artists label.

1759
01:28:02,040 --> 01:28:03,840
Speaker 1: You know they care about the artists and the music

1760
01:28:03,920 --> 01:28:06,600
Speaker 1: and the art nonsense. Wait till the accounts walk in

1761
01:28:06,640 --> 01:28:10,320
Speaker 1: their own it's the numbers, it's the share value. And

1762
01:28:10,439 --> 01:28:12,200
Speaker 1: that was a world that I was really not going

1763
01:28:12,280 --> 01:28:15,120
Speaker 1: to function well in. Now. J Boulberg, who by this

1764
01:28:15,280 --> 01:28:18,840
Speaker 1: time and you know who was was with me in

1765
01:28:18,880 --> 01:28:21,240
Speaker 1: the label there. You know, I said to him at

1766
01:28:21,280 --> 01:28:22,439
Speaker 1: the end of it, I said, look, you know, I'm

1767
01:28:22,439 --> 01:28:24,680
Speaker 1: not gonna last year very long. And I'll bet you

1768
01:28:25,280 --> 01:28:27,599
Speaker 1: knowing you am I either as I R S. They're

1769
01:28:27,600 --> 01:28:30,200
Speaker 1: gonna close down Chrysalis, They're gonna close down I R S,

1770
01:28:30,400 --> 01:28:33,280
Speaker 1: They're gonna close down Version, They're gonna close down these labels.

1771
01:28:33,280 --> 01:28:36,120
Speaker 1: Why would they want so many labels? If I were you,

1772
01:28:36,360 --> 01:28:38,200
Speaker 1: you're a lot younger than I am. You you know

1773
01:28:38,360 --> 01:28:40,439
Speaker 1: your way around these companies. If I were you, I'd

1774
01:28:40,479 --> 01:28:42,200
Speaker 1: go out and look for a job right now before

1775
01:28:42,240 --> 01:28:45,360
Speaker 1: they fire you, because you know, no one's gonna hire me.

1776
01:28:45,400 --> 01:28:47,320
Speaker 1: They're gonna think, why would Miles take this job? He's

1777
01:28:47,320 --> 01:28:49,560
Speaker 1: managing Sting and making all that money with stinging the

1778
01:28:49,680 --> 01:28:51,960
Speaker 1: police and they have all this They imagine I'm doing

1779
01:28:52,000 --> 01:28:54,400
Speaker 1: all this great stuff, you know, where Shay was just

1780
01:28:54,720 --> 01:28:57,160
Speaker 1: working for I R S. You know, so I said, Jay,

1781
01:28:57,240 --> 01:28:59,679
Speaker 1: do yourself a favor, Go get yourself a job while

1782
01:28:59,760 --> 01:29:02,360
Speaker 1: you have a job, And I think he was kind

1783
01:29:02,400 --> 01:29:05,760
Speaker 1: of upset about it, but sure enough he takes my

1784
01:29:05,840 --> 01:29:08,519
Speaker 1: advice and he goes off, and a few months later

1785
01:29:08,600 --> 01:29:12,639
Speaker 1: he ends up as president of MCA Records. And of course,

1786
01:29:12,800 --> 01:29:15,679
Speaker 1: of course, a year later, what happens. The university closes

1787
01:29:15,800 --> 01:29:17,880
Speaker 1: MCA Records, and he's that of a job, right, but

1788
01:29:17,960 --> 01:29:21,160
Speaker 1: he survives. The history of the music business is littered

1789
01:29:21,240 --> 01:29:25,280
Speaker 1: with people who had great fortunes and blew them. What

1790
01:29:25,400 --> 01:29:29,320
Speaker 1: happened with all your money? Well, I if I could

1791
01:29:29,360 --> 01:29:31,000
Speaker 1: go back and do it over again, I'd have more

1792
01:29:31,080 --> 01:29:33,439
Speaker 1: money than I have now, for sure. You know. I mean,

1793
01:29:33,479 --> 01:29:35,280
Speaker 1: I did blow money on things I shouldn't have done

1794
01:29:35,280 --> 01:29:37,920
Speaker 1: it on, you know, But thankfully I did do enough

1795
01:29:37,960 --> 01:29:41,760
Speaker 1: stuff that made money. When I sold IRIS Records, I

1796
01:29:41,880 --> 01:29:43,680
Speaker 1: made money. You know. I bought a place in a

1797
01:29:43,760 --> 01:29:46,000
Speaker 1: big about a castle in France, believe it or not,

1798
01:29:46,160 --> 01:29:49,680
Speaker 1: you know, which is appreciated in value. You know, I

1799
01:29:49,800 --> 01:29:51,840
Speaker 1: have my royalties from the police. You know, I do

1800
01:29:52,040 --> 01:29:54,760
Speaker 1: have money, but I'm not. I'm not flushed like I

1801
01:29:54,880 --> 01:29:56,720
Speaker 1: used to be. I wouldn't walk around and say, you know,

1802
01:29:56,840 --> 01:29:59,760
Speaker 1: I'm a billionaire or whatever. You know, But I'm living

1803
01:29:59,800 --> 01:30:02,120
Speaker 1: in Fine, you know, and a lot of it has

1804
01:30:02,160 --> 01:30:03,719
Speaker 1: to do with the fact that, you know, I'm getting

1805
01:30:03,800 --> 01:30:06,720
Speaker 1: rewarded four things that I did years ago, just like

1806
01:30:07,000 --> 01:30:09,360
Speaker 1: Sting is, and just like Andy and Stewart are you know,

1807
01:30:09,840 --> 01:30:12,400
Speaker 1: we all got our royalties to things we did thirty

1808
01:30:12,479 --> 01:30:15,360
Speaker 1: years ago. Uh, And I think that's right, you know,

1809
01:30:15,479 --> 01:30:18,680
Speaker 1: we should, you know, because you know, I went through

1810
01:30:18,680 --> 01:30:21,160
Speaker 1: a lot of sacrifice, just like Andy Somers did, and

1811
01:30:21,280 --> 01:30:24,840
Speaker 1: Stewart and Sting, and we all sacrificed to get what

1812
01:30:25,040 --> 01:30:28,559
Speaker 1: we we have, and some made more than others. Of course,

1813
01:30:28,600 --> 01:30:32,320
Speaker 1: Sting made up like a bandit, and uh, thankfully he

1814
01:30:32,439 --> 01:30:34,800
Speaker 1: wrote great songs and he deserves every penny he's got.

1815
01:30:35,760 --> 01:30:37,640
Speaker 1: And a lot of the great artists do you know.

1816
01:30:38,040 --> 01:30:41,720
Speaker 1: But sure there are those that blew their money. Um,

1817
01:30:42,280 --> 01:30:44,679
Speaker 1: and thankfully I was not one that blew all mine.

1818
01:30:45,479 --> 01:30:48,760
Speaker 1: So once keeping you busy now other than writing your memoir, well,

1819
01:30:48,840 --> 01:30:51,280
Speaker 1: actually writing the memoer was was quite interesting. But I'm

1820
01:30:51,360 --> 01:30:54,280
Speaker 1: very interested in politics and what's going on today. I'm looking,

1821
01:30:54,479 --> 01:30:56,240
Speaker 1: you know, with kind of fear at what's going on

1822
01:30:56,360 --> 01:30:59,800
Speaker 1: in America. And but you know, I'm having grown up

1823
01:31:00,080 --> 01:31:01,760
Speaker 1: one of the you know, you asked very early on,

1824
01:31:01,960 --> 01:31:04,080
Speaker 1: you know, what was it like, you know, growing up

1825
01:31:04,080 --> 01:31:05,600
Speaker 1: in the Middle East. Well, one of the things that

1826
01:31:06,920 --> 01:31:09,840
Speaker 1: does get into your mind is, you know, what's the

1827
01:31:09,880 --> 01:31:12,560
Speaker 1: position of America in the world, and what is the

1828
01:31:12,640 --> 01:31:15,680
Speaker 1: politics of the world. So politics is very much a

1829
01:31:15,760 --> 01:31:17,720
Speaker 1: part of what you live and grow up in and

1830
01:31:17,800 --> 01:31:21,360
Speaker 1: places like Lebanon and whatever. You know, And uh, I

1831
01:31:21,479 --> 01:31:24,439
Speaker 1: can't help but remain interested in politics and what's happening

1832
01:31:24,520 --> 01:31:28,240
Speaker 1: with the country and where the future goes. And um,

1833
01:31:29,040 --> 01:31:31,880
Speaker 1: that's something that you know, I'm I watched stev every day,

1834
01:31:31,960 --> 01:31:33,880
Speaker 1: just like Donald Trump does, you know, wanting to see

1835
01:31:33,920 --> 01:31:37,320
Speaker 1: what crazy stuff is happening. You know. But I'm also

1836
01:31:37,400 --> 01:31:39,760
Speaker 1: working with guitar players, so I always liked they work

1837
01:31:39,800 --> 01:31:45,479
Speaker 1: with Steve i, Umnodle, Bettencourt, Zach wild Y, Moustein, I

1838
01:31:45,560 --> 01:31:49,080
Speaker 1: worked with Kenny Waite, Shepard, you know, guitarists. I really

1839
01:31:49,160 --> 01:31:53,000
Speaker 1: loved the guitar and what the guitar does. Um, and

1840
01:31:53,200 --> 01:31:55,760
Speaker 1: I love I love musicianship and stuff. I still listen

1841
01:31:55,800 --> 01:31:57,200
Speaker 1: to records, you know, I still listen to a lot

1842
01:31:57,240 --> 01:31:59,439
Speaker 1: of Middle Eastern stuff. As a matter of fact, I'm

1843
01:31:59,439 --> 01:32:03,000
Speaker 1: not married to one particular kind of music, but I'm

1844
01:32:03,040 --> 01:32:04,880
Speaker 1: interested in what's going on in the world, you know,

1845
01:32:05,120 --> 01:32:08,280
Speaker 1: and the human predicament, you know, I'm interested. I'm sitting

1846
01:32:08,320 --> 01:32:10,960
Speaker 1: here in California looking out it as you must be

1847
01:32:11,479 --> 01:32:15,200
Speaker 1: looking out at smoke, you know, uh, the environment, you know,

1848
01:32:15,280 --> 01:32:16,880
Speaker 1: Where where am I? What are my kids going to

1849
01:32:16,920 --> 01:32:19,320
Speaker 1: grow up to be in twenty years, you know, and

1850
01:32:19,800 --> 01:32:21,680
Speaker 1: what's the world gonna be? So I think none of

1851
01:32:21,760 --> 01:32:25,960
Speaker 1: us can escape from that fact. Um So I would

1852
01:32:26,000 --> 01:32:29,280
Speaker 1: say my my vision now has become I mean it's

1853
01:32:29,280 --> 01:32:32,680
Speaker 1: always been sort of slightly political, but much more so

1854
01:32:32,840 --> 01:32:36,040
Speaker 1: now than it has been in the past. So, needless

1855
01:32:36,040 --> 01:32:38,680
Speaker 1: to say, the music business has gone through a tumultuous

1856
01:32:38,800 --> 01:32:42,840
Speaker 1: change in the twenty first century. And I would also say,

1857
01:32:42,920 --> 01:32:44,720
Speaker 1: as someone who's been around in the era where you

1858
01:32:44,800 --> 01:32:48,400
Speaker 1: had your heyday, music drove the culture in a way

1859
01:32:48,439 --> 01:32:52,000
Speaker 1: it does not today and is not quite as important,

1860
01:32:52,040 --> 01:32:54,880
Speaker 1: even though they're big acts, etcetera. What do you think

1861
01:32:54,920 --> 01:32:57,840
Speaker 1: about music's place in the overall culture today and what

1862
01:32:57,960 --> 01:33:02,280
Speaker 1: do you think about today's music business this Well, I'd

1863
01:33:02,280 --> 01:33:06,320
Speaker 1: say the music business has changed a lot. But you know,

1864
01:33:07,160 --> 01:33:09,320
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago I sat with Jay Boberg,

1865
01:33:09,360 --> 01:33:13,040
Speaker 1: who was actually had had gotten the was running a

1866
01:33:13,120 --> 01:33:15,720
Speaker 1: chairman of a company that was doing digital stuff. So

1867
01:33:15,800 --> 01:33:17,120
Speaker 1: I asked him, I said, you know, what, what do

1868
01:33:17,200 --> 01:33:20,120
Speaker 1: you think, you know, with the Spotify and the world

1869
01:33:20,200 --> 01:33:23,000
Speaker 1: of digital and does that mean that all the royalties

1870
01:33:23,040 --> 01:33:25,800
Speaker 1: that I'm getting from the police and the old stuff

1871
01:33:25,840 --> 01:33:27,439
Speaker 1: that I did over the years, you know, that means

1872
01:33:27,439 --> 01:33:30,240
Speaker 1: he's gonna be dissopated. And he said, well no, he said,

1873
01:33:30,280 --> 01:33:32,160
Speaker 1: just the opposite. And I said, what are you talking about?

1874
01:33:32,200 --> 01:33:35,080
Speaker 1: He said, well, you know, he said, what's really happened,

1875
01:33:35,120 --> 01:33:39,439
Speaker 1: he said, is that now even though you're not making

1876
01:33:39,520 --> 01:33:44,920
Speaker 1: a lot per play, you're talking billions. So he said, remember,

1877
01:33:45,160 --> 01:33:47,040
Speaker 1: you know, you go back twenty years, were we ever

1878
01:33:47,120 --> 01:33:50,719
Speaker 1: making money out of Africa? No, it was all piracy

1879
01:33:50,880 --> 01:33:53,320
Speaker 1: and you know you'd never get a royalty check from

1880
01:33:53,320 --> 01:33:56,439
Speaker 1: anywhere in Africa. He said, Now, if somebody wants music

1881
01:33:56,520 --> 01:33:59,960
Speaker 1: and gabon or what you know, pick pick a country.

1882
01:34:00,160 --> 01:34:03,080
Speaker 1: You know, Molly, you know they have their phone and

1883
01:34:03,120 --> 01:34:05,120
Speaker 1: they want music, Well they can get it on their phone,

1884
01:34:05,200 --> 01:34:07,680
Speaker 1: even if they're paying two cents a song. You know,

1885
01:34:07,720 --> 01:34:10,599
Speaker 1: at least it's something. So he said, now we're actually

1886
01:34:10,640 --> 01:34:14,280
Speaker 1: getting royalty east from Africa. So he said, multiplied Spotify,

1887
01:34:14,439 --> 01:34:16,400
Speaker 1: where you know, two or three years ago, maybe you

1888
01:34:16,479 --> 01:34:19,599
Speaker 1: were getting point zero zero zero one cent a song

1889
01:34:20,200 --> 01:34:27,240
Speaker 1: play multiple times ten billion. Now you're talking real money. So,

1890
01:34:27,360 --> 01:34:30,799
Speaker 1: he said, the likelihood is, even though the record business

1891
01:34:30,840 --> 01:34:34,519
Speaker 1: went into a huge slum when the Satisfy and and

1892
01:34:34,840 --> 01:34:38,120
Speaker 1: the Spotify, a lot of these digital platforms were starting,

1893
01:34:38,160 --> 01:34:40,400
Speaker 1: obvious is I think the arc is gonna go back

1894
01:34:40,479 --> 01:34:43,519
Speaker 1: up again, where those royalty streams will now be meaningful

1895
01:34:43,640 --> 01:34:46,800
Speaker 1: because there's just so many people on it. And he said,

1896
01:34:47,080 --> 01:34:50,120
Speaker 1: the funny thing about the youth today is the figure

1897
01:34:50,120 --> 01:34:53,120
Speaker 1: it out. Paying nine bucks a month to listen to

1898
01:34:53,200 --> 01:34:56,519
Speaker 1: whatever you want, whenever you want it is a great deal.

1899
01:34:57,000 --> 01:34:59,840
Speaker 1: It's a lot better deal than in the past, where

1900
01:35:00,600 --> 01:35:02,760
Speaker 1: once a month you get to buy one record for

1901
01:35:02,920 --> 01:35:06,160
Speaker 1: fifteen bucks and you only get to hear that one record.

1902
01:35:07,160 --> 01:35:09,120
Speaker 1: You know, you own the record, he said. But you know,

1903
01:35:09,320 --> 01:35:11,800
Speaker 1: nine bucks a month, for ten bucks a month, whatever

1904
01:35:11,840 --> 01:35:15,599
Speaker 1: it is to get spotifyces you own everything all the time.

1905
01:35:15,720 --> 01:35:17,920
Speaker 1: He said, that's a great deal. It's a lot cheaper

1906
01:35:18,000 --> 01:35:21,320
Speaker 1: for the average kid then buying one record a month.

1907
01:35:21,479 --> 01:35:23,040
Speaker 1: You know, So, he said, when you think about it

1908
01:35:23,120 --> 01:35:26,719
Speaker 1: that way, he said, the whole generation of this thinking

1909
01:35:26,840 --> 01:35:28,600
Speaker 1: of things in a different way. And you know, you

1910
01:35:28,640 --> 01:35:32,280
Speaker 1: look at things like Uber and also you know a

1911
01:35:32,400 --> 01:35:34,800
Speaker 1: lot of other businesses they're really thinking, well, wait a minute,

1912
01:35:34,840 --> 01:35:38,400
Speaker 1: owning something doesn't have quite the same fields it used

1913
01:35:38,400 --> 01:35:42,320
Speaker 1: to owning a car. Why, you know, with all the

1914
01:35:43,040 --> 01:35:45,040
Speaker 1: you know, you gotta buy tires, you gotta you getta

1915
01:35:45,120 --> 01:35:47,760
Speaker 1: license it, you gotta you know, have repairs, you gotta

1916
01:35:47,800 --> 01:35:50,200
Speaker 1: buy gash you got well, you know, Uber is pretty easy.

1917
01:35:50,320 --> 01:35:52,160
Speaker 1: You know. So a lot of those sort of ways

1918
01:35:52,240 --> 01:35:56,439
Speaker 1: of thinking, you know, uh, that ownership as a way

1919
01:35:56,920 --> 01:35:59,679
Speaker 1: that you used to influence my generation or your generation,

1920
01:36:00,760 --> 01:36:04,080
Speaker 1: they now think of in a different way. And will

1921
01:36:04,120 --> 01:36:07,720
Speaker 1: that change everything in the future? Will maybe? So you know, um,

1922
01:36:08,680 --> 01:36:10,760
Speaker 1: I think that in terms of you know, what I

1923
01:36:10,840 --> 01:36:12,920
Speaker 1: said to him was the time to start a record label?

1924
01:36:12,960 --> 01:36:14,880
Speaker 1: He said, Well, no, he said, because the problem is,

1925
01:36:15,479 --> 01:36:17,559
Speaker 1: by the time you build up enough of a catalog

1926
01:36:18,800 --> 01:36:21,360
Speaker 1: to make any money, you spent so much money doing

1927
01:36:21,439 --> 01:36:24,000
Speaker 1: it that you'll never make it back again. So the

1928
01:36:24,040 --> 01:36:26,200
Speaker 1: way to make money is do what universal did you buy?

1929
01:36:26,240 --> 01:36:30,280
Speaker 1: E M I. They've already got the catalog you spent.

1930
01:36:30,360 --> 01:36:32,599
Speaker 1: You buy it for three or four million dollars billion.

1931
01:36:33,800 --> 01:36:36,960
Speaker 1: You fire everybody. Now, all that money goes straight into

1932
01:36:36,960 --> 01:36:40,360
Speaker 1: your system, which is already set up digitally cause you

1933
01:36:41,080 --> 01:36:43,800
Speaker 1: maybe a few more people, and all that money just

1934
01:36:43,840 --> 01:36:45,560
Speaker 1: flows in with no cost to it. Whereas E M

1935
01:36:45,600 --> 01:36:47,360
Speaker 1: I had all the costs. Now they've got none. They

1936
01:36:47,439 --> 01:36:49,280
Speaker 1: got no rent, they got no pressing, and they got

1937
01:36:49,400 --> 01:36:52,160
Speaker 1: no nothing. You just clashed in. So universal now is

1938
01:36:52,200 --> 01:36:56,400
Speaker 1: making doing phenomenally well because they lost all the they

1939
01:36:56,479 --> 01:36:58,400
Speaker 1: have E M I, but with no cost to me.

1940
01:36:58,439 --> 01:37:03,200
Speaker 1: Am I. Well, Miles, this has been wonderful. Thank you

1941
01:37:03,320 --> 01:37:05,759
Speaker 1: so much for your insight in your history. You're certainly

1942
01:37:05,800 --> 01:37:09,080
Speaker 1: one of a kind. Thanks for doing this. Happy to

1943
01:37:09,160 --> 01:37:12,320
Speaker 1: be here until next time. This is Bob Left sense