WEBVTT - How to Check Your Bias: Accents with Dr. Katherine Kinzler 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.480 Today's quote is from Adrian Marie Brown, who wrote an 0:00:03.480 --> 0:00:08.039 amazing book called Pleasure Activism. She says, quote, Ultimately, pleasure 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:12.280 activism is us learning to make justice and liberation the 0:00:12.480 --> 0:00:16.400 most pleasurable experience as we can have on this planet. 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:19.119 I mean, and I would like to make public speaking 0:00:19.720 --> 0:00:32.000 an active pleasure activism. Welcome to Permission to Speak. The 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:35.800 podcast about how we talk and how we get ourselves 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:44.440 heard with me samar Abe. Today's guest is Catherine Kinsler. 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:48.280 She's a professor of psychology at University of Chicago who 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:51.199 was also the chair of the psychology department at Cornell 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:54.680 for a few years and a Fulbright scholar in Paris. 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:57.880 And she's the author of a new book called How 0:00:58.000 --> 0:01:00.960 You Say It, Why you talk the way you do, 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:06.000 and What it Says about You. I obviously wanted to 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:08.200 have her on as soon as I heard about the book, 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:12.840 and then I read it, and it is fantastic. She 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:17.600 manages to give an overview of every major study at 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:20.600 the intersection of linguistics and psychology about how we speak 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:24.800 and how we listen without in any way sounding academic 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:28.720 or like it's a bunch of studies um and really 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:34.440 instead the book has this really compelling, I think argument 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:39.959 that each of us A has an accent hello and 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:47.120 b that actually our own unique way of pronouncing sounds, 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:51.320 and all the subtle markers of where we've been and 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:56.800 where we're going is, as she says, a window into 0:01:56.840 --> 0:01:59.720 who we are. We also take this opportunity to talk 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:04.040 about accent bias, which is real, real, and we talk 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:10.000 about some really wildly distressing data and stories like Trayvon 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:12.240 Martin's friend who he was on the phone with at 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:16.920 the time of his murder, who testified at his killer's 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:23.520 trial and was just not heard. And we talk about 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:26.679 our options, We talk about our way out. We talked 0:02:26.680 --> 0:02:29.600 about what we should be teaching our kids and why 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:33.560 kids are so cool to study, which is what Katherine 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:39.600 Kindler actually does in the lab and online. And you know, 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:41.760 if you're listening and you have a kid, we even 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:44.600 have info on how to enroll your kid if you're interested. 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:57.080 This is Katie Kindler. Welcome, Katie. UM are you teaching 0:02:57.200 --> 0:03:01.080 these days? I'm doing a little bit of teaching, but remotely. 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:04.440 Um And then I work a lot with graduate students, 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:06.760 and I have a lab, so I you know, I 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:09.639 run a psychology lab and we test kids, and so 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:12.799 we've actually moved it all online um, and it's been 0:03:12.880 --> 0:03:16.800 fascinating because we have all these families signing up to 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:21.639 join our studies and it's all virtual, um, and it's 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:24.000 working in a way that it wouldn't have worked a 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:27.360 year ago. I think that, you know, prior to now, 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:30.320 parents would be kind of freaked out with this idea 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:33.680 of my kids gonna go online and you're not questions 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:36.000 that we're going to record it, you know. Now they're 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:41.400 kind of like, please entering my child for thirty minutes. Yeah. 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:44.160 I mean, it's literally safer to go online and participate 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:47.040 in a study than like use a playground. And I 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:52.520 think for the kids, they're getting so remarkably talented at 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:55.800 any virtual form of communication in a way that's, you know, 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:58.280 I think, mind boggling to adults, at least to me. 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:01.400 You know, I have a six year old who was 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:05.200 on a Zoom call with two friends and then she 0:04:05.320 --> 0:04:08.640 manages to take a screenshot of the three of them 0:04:08.680 --> 0:04:11.840 talking and drawing it to make it more beautiful and 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:15.760 uploaded as her virtual Zoom background. And I didn't teach 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:18.799 her that, And I'm just you know, thinking oh, she's 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:23.719 native and zoom technology so and they all are right. 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:28.640 Has it actually has this new you know, virtual way 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:31.599 of doing things actually affected the studies themselves that you're 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:35.360 working on, or have you had to adapt? Yeah, so 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:38.359 there's certainly some constraints and some things we could do 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:42.040 in person that are harder online. But looking to the future, 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:45.160 you know, in many ways it actually opens up I 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:49.080 think a lot of possibilities and that it's so important 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:52.560 to think about getting a more diverse sample of people 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:56.120 participating in research. And so when it's online, it doesn't 0:04:56.160 --> 0:04:59.279 have to just be people who are you know, local 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:03.839 in Chicago or who are comfortable coming into a university community. Um, 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:06.160 of course there's going to be some equity issues and 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:09.720 who has access to internet or you know, the space 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:11.960 and time to talk with you. But I think it 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:14.479 actually might be a way to increase the diversity of 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:17.080 our participant base, which is you know, exciting. Is something 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:20.040 I think that's really important your book. I want to 0:05:20.400 --> 0:05:24.960 start with a quote, Um, you said, Uh, linguistic bias 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:28.200 is completely culturally acceptable in a way that racial bias 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:32.120 is not. Many parents feel uncomfortable with any expression of 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:35.600 race based preference but when their children express a preference 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:39.560 based on the way someone speaks, they are not as concerned. 0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:45.360 I want to know how you came to write this book, 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:51.400 and even more so why it didn't already exist. So, 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:54.400 you know, when we look out in the world, there's 0:05:54.560 --> 0:05:58.200 so many social group divisions were also aware of this 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:04.040 um race, gender, nationality, political affiliation. We could go on 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:08.880 and on, but one thing that we use to you know, 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:12.479 as you know, well, to connect with people in a 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:15.960 good way, but then also to really divide ourselves and 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:18.960 to judge people and to be judged by others, is 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:22.760 about our speech. And I just think we're so unaware 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:26.440 of this um as a society, about the way that 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:30.440 our speech works to structure our social lives and how 0:06:30.520 --> 0:06:33.640 much bias and prejudice can exist against people based on 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:36.200 how they sound. And so I just think it's so 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:39.159 important for people to think about and why do you 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:43.240 think this book didn't already exist or something you know 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:46.520 that covers this topic. Partly, I think the answer is 0:06:46.600 --> 0:06:51.040 in how interdisciplinary you are, and it requires one to be. 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:54.080 But I wonder if you know, did you see that 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:56.479 there was a real void and then you were like, wait, 0:06:57.240 --> 0:07:00.040 how is it possible or does it make sense. I 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:02.320 guess that this is sort of always flown under the radar, 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:05.359 you know. So I think part of it is this 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:07.919 cultural flying under the radar, and I think that's a 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:11.200 real thing, and I do hope that that will change, 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:14.840 that people become aware of linguistic prejudice in society. Now, 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:18.080 I could give you somewhat of the academics response, which 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:20.840 is that I'm trained as a psychologist, and I study 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:24.080 developmental and social psychology, and at least within the field 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:26.280 of psychology, which is often the field that you know, 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:30.480 we have a lot of studies about bias and implicit 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:36.760 biases and people's conscious and less conscious thinking about racism, 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:39.800 and you know, the kinds of studies that are really informative, 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:42.320 and we're thinking about intergroup bias. A lot of that 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:46.440 is in social psychology, but all the more language stuff 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:49.360 in psychology tends to be in other areas. So there's 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:52.360 you know, language is such a fundamental part of psychology, 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:56.160 of course, but it's often about language processing and language 0:07:56.160 --> 0:08:01.240 acquisition and more this cognitive language for language's sake, as 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:05.400 opposed to language and social psychology. And so it's almost 0:08:05.400 --> 0:08:09.080 this weird gap in the field. And then I so 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:10.920 I was thinking about this, and I was working on 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:14.000 this problem, and then I started reading more and more 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:19.800 neighboring fields, and then you get into different aspects of linguistics, psycholinguistics, 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:23.720 socio linguistics, you see, linguistic anthropology. There's a lot of 0:08:23.720 --> 0:08:27.920 relevant research in economics and education, you know, in other 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:32.600 policy oriented fields, and so it it felt to me 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:35.720 like one book that tried to draw in all these 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:40.000 different fields might be the best way to tackle this problem. 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:42.400 I mean, you know, as somebody who's a dialect coach, 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:46.640 to have to find a book that basically says that 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:51.160 accent a is something every single person has and b 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:56.640 is so foundational to how we are treated in the 0:08:56.679 --> 0:09:01.160 world or how we are perceived that we all miss 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:06.200 it is a very satisfying book to a found you know. 0:09:06.320 --> 0:09:08.440 And then you know, I have to say also as 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:12.480 a lay person, I I really just want to like 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:14.800 shout out there isn't even a question attached to this, 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:17.400 although you're welcome to pick up whatever you want from it, 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:20.080 but I really want to shout out that I believe 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:25.520 you just gave everyone who read this book a survey 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:29.800 on all of the important studies in socio linguistics and 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:33.800 in these related, um you know, intersecting fields. But in 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:36.560 no way made it sound like that, like you weren't 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:39.760 like in another important study. You really just like held 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:41.960 our hand and said, here's what we know, and here's 0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:47.160 what people have been wondering. Well. Thanks, that's lovely to hear. Uh. 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:49.720 And you know, I'm so excited to be talking to 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:53.559 a dialectic so now, because I mean, people are always 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:57.079 asking me questions about this field, and though it feels 0:09:57.200 --> 0:10:00.760 so related to the questions that I study, but yet 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:04.160 it's not a field that I'm very familiar with myself. 0:10:04.200 --> 0:10:06.800 You know, it's really different from my academic exercises. So 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:09.920 I feel like this connection is so excited, it's super cool. 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:12.880 I mean, there's definitely just a few moments in your 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:16.040 book where you talk about, like, you know, a changing 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:18.640 up your accent, especially when English is your second language, 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:21.360 is wildly difficult to do, which I want to talk 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:24.200 more about. But be you know, some of the people 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:27.000 who do it are actors and actually see that there 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:30.320 is this there's this sort of two sided reaction that 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:33.280 people have when they hear for example, Hugh Laurie speaking 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:35.440 in his actual British accent. If you've seen the TV 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:37.760 show House and the two the two different feelings are 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:40.599 one like, I'm so impressed, and too, I feel a 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:43.600 little like he betrayed me. Yeah, exactly. It feels like 0:10:43.640 --> 0:10:47.800 it's the superhuman feat because it's not what we typically do. 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:51.040 And then you start recategorizing and saying, wait, you know, 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:53.880 I thought he was this guy I knew, and now 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:57.840 I don't know him anymore, right, well, okay, so it 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:02.439 is about linguistic bias. But even before that, it's there 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:07.280 is such a lovely argument in this book that how 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:11.520 we talk or language is so crazy. There's this quote 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:14.880 here I have it's so critical to feelings of identity 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:16.880 that when you speak, you let a little bit of 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:20.560 yourself out for the world to interpret. And I think 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:23.559 it's so important and it's so hard to talk. I mean, 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:27.040 part of what's been fascinating about having this podcast is 0:11:27.080 --> 0:11:29.719 that I do sometimes feel like I have to sort 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:31.679 of shine a light on the fact that we can 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:34.200 even talk about the voice before we can then also 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:37.680 talk about the voice, because it's so invisible because it 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:41.880 flies under the radar. And yet you know, as you say, 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:44.320 the way you talk is a window into who you are. 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:47.400 There's so there's so much research, and there's so much 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:50.480 about how much our identity comes out and how we sound. 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:53.480 And I actually would love to talk about Ruth Bader 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:58.000 Ginsburg as an example of what I'm talking about. Yeah, absolutely, 0:11:58.480 --> 0:12:01.640 would you tell us about this and what we learned. 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:05.720 It's so it's so it's a bit counterintuitive, I think. Yeah. 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:09.240 So on your broader point about your speech letting out 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:12.280 a bit about who you are, I think it does 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:15.760 so in two ways. So one is that, as I'm 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:18.120 sure we can talk about more, it's so hard to 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:21.480 learn a non native language or a non native accent 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:24.560 into adulthood. So in that sense, when we speak, we're 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:28.680 often showing people who the voices were who were talking 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:31.520 to us when we were children. But then the other 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:34.280 thing it does is it your language does shift to 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:36.719 some extent across your life. And as you know, right, 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:40.800 you know, you're teaching people and helping people work on changes, 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:44.880 and so your voice also shows your aspirations and who 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:48.319 you want to be and who you're with now, not 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:50.720 just who you're with then. And so it's really kind 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:53.760 of these two facets I think about it. So when 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:57.360 we think about the Ruth Bader Ginsburg example, linguists charted 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:01.720 her speech over time and find some real interesting aspects 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:04.640 of her speech coming through. So you know, she grew 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:08.200 up and had some you know, New York or Brooklyn 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:11.240 features in her language, such as dropping the r at 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:14.839 the end of a word, so you know, mother, mother, 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:17.640 something like that, leaving the r at the end um, 0:13:17.880 --> 0:13:21.240 leaving off the art. We can think of Bernie Sanders 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:24.920 as like a extreme example of some of the yes. 0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:29.040 And so the interesting thing was that she'd been in 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:33.040 d C for a while and so first of all, 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:38.160 she wasn't immersed in this Brooklyn speech. And also the 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:40.959 dialect itself is shifting a little bit in New York, 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:44.040 so that was more true a generation ago than it 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:47.640 is today. The are dropping and then also some they 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:55.200 call it some vowel raising, so um, that exactly right. 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:57.120 So those two features you can hear that those are 0:13:57.120 --> 0:14:01.800 really stereotypical, you know, stereotypically thought of as this New 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:05.800 York accent. Now, what's interesting about with Vader Ginsburg is 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:09.000 that she grew up in that community, but then for 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:11.160 a long time, when you look at when the linguists 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:15.400 listened to recordings of her arguing prior in court, prior 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:19.360 to becoming a Supreme Court justice, they don't hear those 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:23.000 New York features. It's as if she's hyper correcting her speech. 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:26.920 She's really trying to sound more, you know, more what 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:30.040 people might see of think of as proper. And then 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:32.760 it's only in the later years when she's a justice 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:36.720 that you start to see this voice from her childhood 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:39.520 coming out again. And so in some ways, I really 0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:43.520 think it's a sign that she feels like she's made it. 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:47.000 She's comfortable with herself and with her voice, and so 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:51.920 she doesn't need to correct in the same way. There's 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:54.920 such a lesson there for all of us, right, and 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:57.920 and it's also complicated. I mean, one thing that I 0:14:57.960 --> 0:15:01.280 think is so useful about that story is that sometimes 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:05.520 I think about formal versus informal speech and formal versus 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:09.720 in formal situations, but that what I learned from that 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:12.440 is there's actually this much more important lens than just 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:15.280 looking at the context, which is, are do you have 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:19.840 something to prove? Yeah? Are you being evaluated in that moment? 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:22.920 And then you know, to bring it into all of 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:25.840 our lives. There is this element of if we're being 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:33.160 evaluated and our natural instinct is to overcorrect, as you say, um, 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:35.680 when can we not do that? Is that is that 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:38.520 you know, at what point is it is? It? Is 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:41.000 it about like when in our own lives do we 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:44.360 feel like we don't have anything to prove anymore? Or 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:47.200 is there something about like there being a kind of 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:50.960 a revolutionary act in um just teaching people that like 0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:54.200 you can sound you know, non standard and still be 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:57.720 taken seriously. But you know, then the problem is sometimes 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:00.080 you aren't right. And I think both of those things 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.040 so are true. So a lot of it is that 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:07.080 probably you know, your relationship with your voice is a 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:10.640 lot about self acceptance. You know, there's all these linguistic 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:13.040 studies about people who speak in a way that other 0:16:13.120 --> 0:16:17.600 people feels nonstandard, and they can feel very insecure about 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:19.800 the way they speak. At the same time, the flip 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:24.479 side of that is, I hope we're approaching some education 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:29.160 where we can actually realize this hidden source of prejudice 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:31.800 and bias and become more aware of it, and then 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:34.000 in that sense, more people, you know, as you're trying 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:39.080 to do, can feel comfortable in their voices. Well, yeah, 0:16:39.120 --> 0:16:41.920 and especially because it makes me think about like, um, 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:44.160 you know, when we don't have anything to prove anymore, sure, 0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:48.280 when when does that happen exactly? And if we're you know, ambitious, 0:16:48.360 --> 0:16:51.840 or if we're always moving forward or upward or whatever 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:54.480 metaphor you want to use, then like, in a way, 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:57.040 maybe we're always finding ourselves in new positions where we 0:16:57.080 --> 0:16:58.840 have to prove ourselves and we can't just always be 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:02.640 sort of chasing like someday I'll be myself, especially because 0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:06.199 there's this added complicating thread, which is that often people 0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:10.119 who really create these magical moments to capture a society. 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:13.080 I mean I'm talking I'm thinking specifically of of AOC's 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:16.080 speech the other week in Congress. But you know, there 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:19.040 are these there are these moments when people sound more 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:23.000 like themselves than you're than you expect given the formality 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:27.560 of the context, and then it becomes really poignant and 0:17:27.920 --> 0:17:31.320 often they become leaders. Right. Part of I think what's 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:33.840 valuable about the conversation you're having in the book and 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:36.200 that I'm having on the podcast is this idea of 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:40.080 we can't all just fall back on these safe tropes 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:45.120 of um, the room makes me scared, so I will 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:49.520 hide myself or you know, we won't find our own 0:17:49.560 --> 0:17:51.800 leadership and we won't find we won't have like you 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:54.040 know this, our society won't move forward the way we 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:57.520 actually all want it to. Yeah, I mean that. Yeah, 0:17:57.560 --> 0:18:01.440 that definitely resonates and finding this authentic self which is 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:06.680 very vulnerable. In fact, actually i'd love you to talk 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:11.320 about you very honestly reference your feeling of being conflicted 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:16.960 about up speak sure and vocal for I mean, they're 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:20.160 both mentioned, and actually they're both really relevant really as 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:23.760 practical sort of examples of what we're talking about. Would 0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:25.800 you do you want to talk about Yeah, I'll talk 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:29.040 about so. Um. So this is where I talk about 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:33.080 how often, you know, language changes over time, and often 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:37.840 it's adolescence and in particular even adolescent women who are 0:18:38.400 --> 0:18:42.040 changing the language. And so you know, new features come out, 0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:46.000 and adolescents are kind of fighting against the old guard, 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:47.960 and so you know, another facet of that is that 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:51.480 old people always don't like the way that young people speak. 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:53.200 But when they were young, someone didn't like the way 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:55.480 that they spoke, and so that's kind of a recurring 0:18:55.560 --> 0:19:00.440 cycle of human nature. So up speak or up talk 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:05.080 is ending sentences in a question, and so you know, 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:07.520 kind of some people might call it a valley girl 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:10.680 kind of speak. Um. You know, I was a teenager 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:13.080 in the nineties, and so I think of the movie 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:17.159 Clueless is one reference point that I get. We're definitely 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:23.200 a temporarius by the way, Okay, you know, I find 0:19:23.240 --> 0:19:25.919 myself slipping into that sometimes and I hear it and 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:30.359 my students in the complexity is that there's no good 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:33.520 or bad way of speaking. It doesn't it's not you know, 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:36.680 there's nothing that has to be good or bad about 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:40.440 a particular intonation, and so I don't want to judge 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:43.359 it because I because I know that. At the same time, 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:45.920 if I find myself slipping into it, it gets really 0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:50.320 complicated because it originated you know, often it's women doing it. 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:53.720 It sort of gets mixed into this notion of maybe 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:56.160 a sexist notion that a woman doesn't know what she's 0:19:56.200 --> 0:19:59.679 saying something like that, and so it's really you know, 0:19:59.720 --> 0:20:01.800 it's a tough one that I struggle with in my 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:05.480 own voice. And then you point out beautifully, Um in 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:08.160 the book that uh, that it's complicated by the fact 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:09.399 that not only did you grow up with this, but 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:12.080 also as a result, a lot of role models, a 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:14.240 lot of the icons that we all grew up with 0:20:14.440 --> 0:20:18.000 also speak this way. Yeah, and I think, you know, 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:21.120 vocal fries interesting. I think that that tends to out 0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:23.280 tends to be a little bit younger or you know, 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:25.800 not so much to say when we were in high school. Um, 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:28.280 so this is kind of ending, you know, adding this 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:32.159 kind of uh, like a growlly sort of feature to 0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:34.520 the end of your words or to some vowels. And 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:38.959 what's interesting is that adults really don't like it. But 0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:43.080 one paper pulled a bunch of college students somewhat recently 0:20:43.119 --> 0:20:44.720 a few years ago, and I've tried this too with 0:20:44.760 --> 0:20:46.800 my students, and you know, you play them a clip 0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:49.720 and they say, oh, yeah, no, that that doesn't sound 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:52.879 bad to me. That sounds like somebody who's you know, 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:57.280 kind of going somewhere. And so I think, yeah, that 0:20:57.359 --> 0:21:00.639 you get these generational differences, and so which makes sense 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:03.960 because if that's the way you you know, if that's 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:07.880 the way that people of your generation speak, it can 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:10.520 sound positive. And then you know, here I'm like, now 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:13.560 I'm feeling like an old person thinking, Yah, the kids 0:21:13.560 --> 0:21:15.560 are speaking in this way, that you know, I don't. 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:17.679 Well also you said adults don't like it, but there 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:20.520 is some cut off, right of like kind of adults 0:21:20.560 --> 0:21:22.959 we're talking about totally, and these are not you know, 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:26.240 it's not usually like, well, if you're born you know after, 0:21:27.040 --> 0:21:29.719 if you're born before, hate it. You know, it's not 0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:34.120 usually that clear cut. It's complicated, and it's complicated by 0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:37.040 the fact that, as you say in the book, less 0:21:37.040 --> 0:21:39.439 so with upspeak perhaps, But but vocal fry is a 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:42.400 great example that I have this quote here where you said, 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:46.919 once a way of rebelling against the linguistic establishment, vocal 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:50.080 fry seems to have joined its ranks because obviously at 0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:53.160 some point the people who are speaking in vocal fry 0:21:53.359 --> 0:21:59.120 as their you know, rebellious streak. I'll share in clueless um, 0:21:59.240 --> 0:22:01.399 then get a little hour, then become the boss. And 0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:03.640 if they have, if they haven't lost that you know, 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:07.480 whatever linguistic marker that is revealing of their character, then 0:22:07.480 --> 0:22:10.960 suddenly that's what bosses sound like. And then probably young 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:15.400 people will do something different. Right, It is kind of 0:22:15.800 --> 0:22:18.600 freeing and ridiculous that we grab onto these ideas just 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:21.000 knowing that like there's gonna be another train of them 0:22:21.040 --> 0:22:24.679 coming up, which leads me to one other philosophical question 0:22:24.760 --> 0:22:28.200 which doesn't have an answer, but but perhaps it's worth 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:32.120 thinking about, which is that sometimes we feel an obligation 0:22:32.359 --> 0:22:36.520 in the coaching world leadership coaching and with corporate clients 0:22:36.640 --> 0:22:38.800 who have, you know, a sort of a sense of 0:22:38.840 --> 0:22:41.119 what a strong voice sounds like, what they're going for. 0:22:41.720 --> 0:22:45.000 We're often in a position of having to tell people 0:22:45.400 --> 0:22:48.399 to you know, learn how to speak without up speaking 0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:53.000 vocal fry. And then the question is because as you say, 0:22:53.000 --> 0:22:54.840 and I love the way you put it, Uh, this 0:22:54.920 --> 0:22:59.880 is where the complexity comes in. Is there and ours 0:23:00.040 --> 0:23:04.080 elves quote unquote that is more us than the social 0:23:04.080 --> 0:23:07.240 markers that we've picked up, Like are we more ourselves 0:23:07.320 --> 0:23:09.280 if we let go of some of those markers because 0:23:09.280 --> 0:23:12.000 we pick them up as ways to minimize ourselves in 0:23:12.040 --> 0:23:16.639 certain spaces, or are they part of our story and 0:23:16.680 --> 0:23:19.560 so letting go of them, you know? And obviously there 0:23:19.640 --> 0:23:22.439 is not a one way answer, right, There's not a 0:23:22.520 --> 0:23:26.240 one way answer. And I think for me, the bigger 0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:30.520 picture truth is just how much our language, how much 0:23:30.560 --> 0:23:34.640 the way we speak, reflects the social complexity of our lives. 0:23:34.800 --> 0:23:37.960 And so a big part of that is our childhood 0:23:38.040 --> 0:23:40.640 and the languages we learned in childhood when our brains 0:23:40.720 --> 0:23:44.639 were still you know, malleable and ready to learn languages. 0:23:44.960 --> 0:23:48.600 And then a large part reflects our social ambition and 0:23:48.640 --> 0:23:51.360 our social changes in our new social worlds. And so 0:23:51.680 --> 0:23:54.640 I think it's really hard to turn any of that off. 0:23:55.440 --> 0:23:56.879 We're going to take a quick break and then we're 0:23:56.880 --> 0:23:58.760 gonna come back and talk about some of the specific 0:23:58.760 --> 0:24:01.480 things we can turn off and that we're doing without 0:24:01.520 --> 0:24:12.119 even knowing it. We're back, and actually i'd love to 0:24:12.160 --> 0:24:15.320 step back for a second and ask how all of 0:24:15.359 --> 0:24:18.520 this work that you've been doing for you know, over 0:24:18.520 --> 0:24:22.480 a decade now, but specifically um, for this book has 0:24:22.520 --> 0:24:27.800 made you think about your own voice. So one important 0:24:27.880 --> 0:24:30.720 thing that we can all think about. But I think, 0:24:30.760 --> 0:24:33.440 you know, I grew up in New York a little bit, 0:24:33.480 --> 0:24:36.560 but a lot of mostly in Connecticut, which is part 0:24:36.600 --> 0:24:40.800 of the region where people often say that they don't 0:24:40.840 --> 0:24:44.720 have an accent and other people have an accent. So 0:24:44.920 --> 0:24:48.480 you see this like which doesn't make logical sense. So 0:24:48.680 --> 0:24:51.720 everybody has an accent. I mean, it's so it's so beautiful, right, 0:24:52.320 --> 0:24:55.240 So it's such a it's such a human thing. To do. Yeah, 0:24:55.480 --> 0:24:59.399 And so even people who speak a sign language have 0:25:00.080 --> 0:25:03.560 a manner have a have an accent. Um, So you know, 0:25:03.840 --> 0:25:06.840 everybody has an accent. Well you actually define in this 0:25:06.880 --> 0:25:09.760 case what you mean by an accent, sure, so a 0:25:09.920 --> 0:25:13.800 manner of pronounced you know, pronunciation, so the way that 0:25:13.880 --> 0:25:18.280 you say your words, the sound of your words. Um. 0:25:18.359 --> 0:25:21.320 And of course for for signs, they don't have a sound, 0:25:21.400 --> 0:25:23.760 but they do have a manner of pronunciation in a 0:25:23.800 --> 0:25:28.400 way that feels very like the same idea. And then 0:25:28.440 --> 0:25:32.840 I see this in you know, in my colleagues and 0:25:33.000 --> 0:25:36.520 friends and you know, people from childhood, just that it's 0:25:36.560 --> 0:25:42.359 so easy to think about accents as a gradation from 0:25:42.359 --> 0:25:45.560 the self. So like somebody who has oh but somebody 0:25:45.560 --> 0:25:48.520 you know who really has an accent. Well, but what 0:25:48.600 --> 0:25:51.880 does that mean again, you know, because everybody has an accent. 0:25:52.000 --> 0:25:56.040 And so I think when you're thinking about, um, mastering 0:25:56.640 --> 0:26:00.280 a language that's not your own, that might be you know, 0:26:00.359 --> 0:26:03.640 you could think about whether or not you sound like 0:26:03.680 --> 0:26:06.399 a native speaker, so you might use accent in that way. 0:26:06.400 --> 0:26:09.640 But I think when I think about, you know, how 0:26:09.680 --> 0:26:13.920 I grew up speaking, or the amount of linguistic diversity 0:26:13.920 --> 0:26:17.200 that I heard which was somewhat little. And that's something 0:26:17.240 --> 0:26:19.520 that I reflect on too, that I think that it's 0:26:19.600 --> 0:26:24.560 so important where possible to expose kids to different languages, 0:26:24.760 --> 0:26:26.840 and so I think about that, you know, living in 0:26:26.840 --> 0:26:30.439 a city or having two little kids. Um, everybody has 0:26:30.480 --> 0:26:33.600 an accent. And also, as I talk about some in 0:26:33.640 --> 0:26:35.919 the book, even the way of hearing an accent, when 0:26:35.920 --> 0:26:38.160 you hear somebody and you think, oh, a strong accent 0:26:38.320 --> 0:26:40.840 or oh a week accent, A lot of that is 0:26:41.080 --> 0:26:44.480 entirely subjective and about the listener, not about the speaker, 0:26:45.000 --> 0:26:47.800 And so much happens. I didn't realize until I read 0:26:47.800 --> 0:26:51.200 your book. So much happens when we perceive an accent 0:26:51.600 --> 0:26:54.359 that's psychological. It's just not about the sounds. It's not 0:26:54.440 --> 0:26:56.440 like I hear that accent, but okay, I can tell 0:26:56.480 --> 0:26:59.240 that sound is actually usually that other sound. Okay, cool, 0:26:59.280 --> 0:27:01.720 I've solved it. But instead all these like new things 0:27:01.760 --> 0:27:05.920 come into play of I can't understand this person. Yeah, 0:27:05.960 --> 0:27:09.639 And so you know, there's just these elegant studies about 0:27:09.720 --> 0:27:16.000 how elegant for the science, not like elegant about humanity, 0:27:16.160 --> 0:27:21.360 possibly the opposite about humanity. So you know, people here 0:27:21.359 --> 0:27:24.880 often what they want to hear, you know, so there 0:27:24.920 --> 0:27:30.560 can be studies of somebody listening to speech and thinking 0:27:30.640 --> 0:27:35.440 that because the person speaking looks Asian, that they're more 0:27:35.480 --> 0:27:39.639 likely to be a non native speaker of English because 0:27:39.640 --> 0:27:41.879 a lot of people have this bias about kind of 0:27:41.920 --> 0:27:46.160 attaching whiteness to being American, and then that's not at 0:27:46.160 --> 0:27:49.479 all present in the person's speech. It's like you're bringing 0:27:49.520 --> 0:27:52.600 this bias or you're bringing this prejudice. And then you 0:27:52.640 --> 0:27:56.280 could hear speech in a way that's just so laden 0:27:56.320 --> 0:27:59.320 with bias and not actually about what the person is saying. 0:28:00.080 --> 0:28:03.240 And then it also leads us into the credibility issue. 0:28:03.359 --> 0:28:05.600 So either we just literally shut down and we don't 0:28:06.040 --> 0:28:08.920 think we're hearing somebody like you're like you just described, 0:28:09.359 --> 0:28:14.280 or I mean, the Trayvon Martin story, Yeah, so you 0:28:14.280 --> 0:28:17.000 know the story. This is a really I mean I 0:28:17.080 --> 0:28:21.640 find it just so poignant and heartbreaking that this is 0:28:21.720 --> 0:28:28.560 the story of Trayvon Martin, who was who was murdered 0:28:29.280 --> 0:28:35.560 as an unarmed African American teenager and um, you know 0:28:36.040 --> 0:28:41.600 in the trial, uh he was right before he died, 0:28:41.680 --> 0:28:44.760 he'd been speaking on the phone with a friend of 0:28:44.880 --> 0:28:48.920 his and um, Rachel jon Tell and she was in 0:28:48.960 --> 0:28:51.400 the courtroom, and she was speaking a dialect of African 0:28:51.760 --> 0:28:56.680 American English, and you know, she testified to the fact 0:28:57.240 --> 0:29:01.800 that you know, Trayvon was trying to you know, get 0:29:01.840 --> 0:29:03.920 away from the shooter and so forth, which would really 0:29:03.960 --> 0:29:08.320 go against a claim of self defense. And evidence from 0:29:08.400 --> 0:29:12.560 linguists have gone and UM analyzed, you know, what happened 0:29:12.560 --> 0:29:15.160 in the trial and what the juror said after the fact, 0:29:15.520 --> 0:29:19.640 and there's a lot of evidence that they either didn't 0:29:19.720 --> 0:29:26.720 understand her or just felt like she She was basically discredited, 0:29:27.040 --> 0:29:31.640 UM because of the way she spoke and her truth 0:29:31.880 --> 0:29:36.600 just wasn't heard in that trial, UM, in the trial 0:29:37.280 --> 0:29:40.560 against George Zimmerman, the shooter. And it should be noted 0:29:40.600 --> 0:29:45.240 that the jury was basically all white. Yes, correct. So 0:29:45.600 --> 0:29:49.040 now these issues are really complicated, and you know, even 0:29:49.160 --> 0:29:51.560 linguists debate over how to think of them. It's not 0:29:51.600 --> 0:29:56.840 like there's a one size fits all answer because in 0:29:56.920 --> 0:29:59.960 some ways, thinking about a courtroom, you want to offer 0:30:00.000 --> 0:30:03.680 for a way to translate speech so that everybody understands. 0:30:04.280 --> 0:30:08.720 At the same time, a lot of bias against language 0:30:08.880 --> 0:30:11.719 is not just this idea of oh, was the speech 0:30:11.800 --> 0:30:15.400 comprehensible or not? In this really neutral way, but you 0:30:15.440 --> 0:30:21.520 can see racism being so central to judgments against speech, 0:30:21.600 --> 0:30:23.520 and I think in some ways it can just be 0:30:23.880 --> 0:30:27.920 this really insidious part of bias where somebody can say, oh, 0:30:28.040 --> 0:30:32.280 I'm not being racist, I just don't understand this person, 0:30:32.680 --> 0:30:35.520 but they're bringing so much baggage to how they think 0:30:35.560 --> 0:30:38.480 about the person's voice. Well, and it really is I 0:30:38.480 --> 0:30:41.640 mean that story specifically as a real counter argument to 0:30:42.400 --> 0:30:47.120 um my kind of you know, sometimes pollyanna Ish instincts 0:30:47.120 --> 0:30:49.680 of like can't we all just be ourselves? You know? 0:30:49.800 --> 0:30:51.600 And I'm well aware of it. I mean, whenever I'm 0:30:51.600 --> 0:30:55.240 coaching people, I'm not just saying like, you know, however 0:30:55.480 --> 0:30:59.280 you sound with your favorite people when you're the most 0:30:59.280 --> 0:31:02.440 comfortable will work in every context. I wish it did. 0:31:02.720 --> 0:31:05.240 I think that there's a social justice element to that, 0:31:05.960 --> 0:31:09.479 um but you know, the reality is when we are 0:31:09.600 --> 0:31:13.320 learning different ways to speak in different contexts, it is 0:31:13.400 --> 0:31:16.560 often because there are like power structures in play, and 0:31:16.640 --> 0:31:20.840 like do you, you know, help your friend who has 0:31:20.840 --> 0:31:26.000 been brutally murdered, uh, you know, find justice posthumously or 0:31:26.040 --> 0:31:30.600 don't you as all of the nation watches, I mean, 0:31:30.800 --> 0:31:33.320 you know, when the stakes are that high, Like, I 0:31:33.360 --> 0:31:35.320 don't know, would it have been useful for her to 0:31:35.400 --> 0:31:38.400 have been coached by someone on how to speak differently? 0:31:38.480 --> 0:31:41.440 Is that even possible? You know? I mean obviously the 0:31:41.480 --> 0:31:44.280 greater answer is just that, like, people need to hear better, 0:31:45.080 --> 0:31:47.719 but we can't always assume that they will. And I 0:31:47.760 --> 0:31:52.040 think that, you know, I'm I would say that I'm 0:31:52.200 --> 0:31:55.760 pro language learning, and that can mean a lot of 0:31:55.800 --> 0:32:00.440 different things, and so I'm not I think the people 0:32:00.480 --> 0:32:04.520 who only speak English at home should learn in schools, 0:32:04.560 --> 0:32:07.040 and we should have this benefit for our children to 0:32:07.160 --> 0:32:12.280 teach them different languages at the same time, you know, 0:32:12.480 --> 0:32:17.160 learning as a child, Um, you know, being bilingual in 0:32:17.240 --> 0:32:20.760 different dialects that you use in different contexts, being bilingual 0:32:20.760 --> 0:32:23.920 in different languages that you use in different settings. This 0:32:24.040 --> 0:32:28.480 can be really positive and the more languages that people 0:32:28.520 --> 0:32:31.920 are able to master can be really wonderful in my view. 0:32:32.240 --> 0:32:33.720 But I think you have to do so in a 0:32:33.760 --> 0:32:39.200 way that's sensitive, and that isn't teaching people languages because 0:32:39.240 --> 0:32:42.120 the one that they have is being devalued, but rather 0:32:42.360 --> 0:32:45.960 seeing an advantage of having multiple ways of speaking in 0:32:46.040 --> 0:32:49.760 multiple contexts. Yeah, there's this concept that you talked about 0:32:49.760 --> 0:32:52.960 that I really I think it's a useful label of 0:32:52.960 --> 0:32:55.960 of like linguistic status that we don't you know that 0:32:56.000 --> 0:32:58.440 we all often have. The Americans have this sense of like, 0:32:58.520 --> 0:33:01.840 we like British accents. Why is that? You know? And 0:33:01.880 --> 0:33:05.040 we also obviously don't have to cross the pond before 0:33:05.080 --> 0:33:09.600 we realize that we have certain you know, inherent biases 0:33:09.640 --> 0:33:13.640 towards as well as against certain accents. The British English 0:33:13.760 --> 0:33:17.680 example is so fun because, um, you're right, we have 0:33:17.880 --> 0:33:22.520 this like British English status loose stereotype going on in 0:33:22.560 --> 0:33:26.440 the US. Absolutely, But what I find fascinating is that 0:33:26.720 --> 0:33:30.200 we also have often a close to home advantage in 0:33:30.560 --> 0:33:36.520 accent detection, and so telling apart different varieties of English 0:33:36.520 --> 0:33:40.240 in the UK to an American ear is very difficult, right, 0:33:40.600 --> 0:33:44.160 And so you might be able to hear, you know, Minnesota, 0:33:44.280 --> 0:33:48.360 from California from New York, but you're not going to 0:33:48.400 --> 0:33:51.040 be able to pick out different regions of the UK 0:33:51.160 --> 0:33:53.959 unless maybe you could because you're trained professional. But I couldn't. 0:33:54.040 --> 0:33:59.680 But the editor exactly right, so I couldn't. Um. And 0:34:00.680 --> 0:34:03.480 what's fascinating though, I think is that as an American 0:34:03.840 --> 0:34:07.400 you could hear a British accent, think oh this person sounds, 0:34:07.480 --> 0:34:10.799 you know, so so amazingly I don't know, British and 0:34:10.920 --> 0:34:13.799 educated or something, but it doesn't have to be one 0:34:13.840 --> 0:34:16.320 of the fancier British accents. So then if you're in 0:34:16.360 --> 0:34:19.920 the UK, somebody might categorize that accent as being not 0:34:20.040 --> 0:34:22.880 at all posh, right, And so I think that that 0:34:23.440 --> 0:34:26.759 shows how much of this is about the stereotypes who 0:34:26.800 --> 0:34:29.960 bring to the table and nothing actually about the actual 0:34:30.040 --> 0:34:33.319 signal value from the voice. So two other things. One 0:34:33.440 --> 0:34:36.040 is I want to call out that we move very 0:34:36.080 --> 0:34:38.080 quickly away from what you think about your own accent. 0:34:38.880 --> 0:34:43.400 But I wonder if you think about, um, what version 0:34:43.440 --> 0:34:45.200 of you comes out when you teach, what version of 0:34:45.200 --> 0:34:47.279 you comes out in conferences? I mean, on on some 0:34:47.360 --> 0:34:50.640 really practical level. This podcast is about public speaking, and 0:34:50.680 --> 0:34:53.120 so not only are you somebody who studies all of this, 0:34:53.200 --> 0:34:55.840 but also you are somebody who is, you know, in 0:34:55.840 --> 0:34:58.800 a sort of leadership position where you get in front 0:34:58.800 --> 0:35:01.080 of lots of people in speech. And I wonder how 0:35:01.120 --> 0:35:04.160 you think about your own sort of style of teaching, 0:35:04.480 --> 0:35:09.520 maybe even dare I say, before the pandemic, right, I mean, 0:35:09.600 --> 0:35:13.160 although teaching on zoom or talk, giving a talk on zoom. 0:35:13.200 --> 0:35:16.839 I think actually raises so many other issues about how 0:35:16.880 --> 0:35:19.600 we present ourselves and feel comfortable on video. And you 0:35:19.640 --> 0:35:25.040 know all the time that's because that it's completely but 0:35:25.120 --> 0:35:26.719 I think it's really you know, I think there's all 0:35:26.760 --> 0:35:29.640 these fascinating questions about who feels comfortable in this new 0:35:29.680 --> 0:35:35.560 medium and who doesn't. So I don't, you know, in 0:35:35.680 --> 0:35:38.960 some ways, probably like a lot of people, I find 0:35:39.120 --> 0:35:48.200 hearing myself talk to be so embarrassing and terrible and um, well, 0:35:48.360 --> 0:35:51.960 by the way, as an expert, what is that? Because 0:35:51.960 --> 0:35:55.640 it's true and it's so culturally acceptable that if somebody 0:35:55.680 --> 0:36:01.000 said they liked the way they spoke, we would be shocked. Probably. 0:36:01.280 --> 0:36:03.360 I mean, I don't know, I could imagine it, but 0:36:04.280 --> 0:36:07.239 and it's not so, you know, I've been talking to 0:36:07.360 --> 0:36:10.520 a lot of people about the book, and you know, 0:36:10.560 --> 0:36:13.160 my mom asked me what I thought about some interview 0:36:13.200 --> 0:36:15.080 and I was like, what do you mean. She's like, well, 0:36:15.680 --> 0:36:18.279 did you think you know he sounded like this and 0:36:18.320 --> 0:36:20.880 you said this? And I was like, Mom, I definitely 0:36:20.920 --> 0:36:27.040 didn't watch that. Are you crazy? I have no idea, 0:36:27.120 --> 0:36:29.759 and please don't tell me. It feels embarrassing right now 0:36:29.840 --> 0:36:33.319 to even just like think about that. So probably, like 0:36:33.400 --> 0:36:36.239 a lot of people, you know, I haven't listened to 0:36:36.960 --> 0:36:42.600 myself on any interviews about the book. Um. I know 0:36:42.719 --> 0:36:45.600 though it's really good practice. So you know, I've heard 0:36:45.600 --> 0:36:49.560 from people that even you know, really famous orders you know, 0:36:49.640 --> 0:36:52.480 often listen to tapes of themselves and you think about 0:36:52.480 --> 0:36:55.160 how they could do better. So it's not to say 0:36:55.200 --> 0:36:58.399 that at a cognitive level, I a hundred percent think 0:36:58.480 --> 0:37:01.000 that I could do better and with learn a tremendous 0:37:01.040 --> 0:37:05.200 amount by listening to uh to my speech, But yet 0:37:05.400 --> 0:37:08.600 I haven't taken up that learning opportunity. I will say 0:37:08.640 --> 0:37:12.720 recently I listened, I just read a transcript of myself 0:37:12.760 --> 0:37:16.720 on a podcast, and even that was horrifying because well, 0:37:16.840 --> 0:37:19.319 if you look, if you actually look at a written transcript, 0:37:19.320 --> 0:37:22.719 we speak in all sorts of weird ways, completely completely. 0:37:22.880 --> 0:37:25.600 No transcripts are literally the worst, and we all say, 0:37:25.600 --> 0:37:28.560 you know, and um, way too many you know. But 0:37:29.040 --> 0:37:31.880 when I had Amanda montell On, who has written at 0:37:31.880 --> 0:37:34.840 this great book called word Slut, a feminist guy to 0:37:34.880 --> 0:37:40.400 taking back English language about linguistics, uh, she pointed out that, um, 0:37:40.640 --> 0:37:43.400 if we take our arms in our you know, is out, 0:37:43.840 --> 0:37:48.000 we actually come across as much less human. Interesting. Okay, 0:37:48.160 --> 0:37:52.040 so I was very human on the transcript that I read. 0:37:52.400 --> 0:37:54.799 So I like your brand. I like what you did there. 0:37:55.360 --> 0:37:58.320 Um tell us a little bit though about because partly 0:37:58.320 --> 0:38:00.239 what you're saying that this with this idea of like 0:38:00.280 --> 0:38:05.360 listening back to oneself and and and improving whatever that means, right, uh, 0:38:05.560 --> 0:38:08.160 is is I would love to touch on what we 0:38:08.200 --> 0:38:11.000 are actually all changing all the time. You know. On 0:38:11.040 --> 0:38:15.359 the one hand, learning a new accent really hard, uh, 0:38:15.480 --> 0:38:20.520 without a without a training professional like a plug. I 0:38:20.520 --> 0:38:22.840 did not mean to do. But you know that there's 0:38:22.960 --> 0:38:25.400 a reason why it's hard to learn languages when you're older, 0:38:25.400 --> 0:38:28.560 and also that um that when English isn't your first language, 0:38:28.560 --> 0:38:31.640 it's very hard to pass as native. But then on 0:38:31.680 --> 0:38:34.600 the other hand, there are these small changes we make 0:38:34.719 --> 0:38:37.879 all the time when we are around people we like. 0:38:38.560 --> 0:38:41.920 Will you tell us about this? Yeah? So you know, 0:38:42.120 --> 0:38:44.200 I think you said it really well that there's this 0:38:44.280 --> 0:38:49.160 bigger picture it's so hard to change, and yet in 0:38:49.400 --> 0:38:53.239 subtle ways, work cobstantly changing. And so if you're interacting 0:38:53.280 --> 0:38:56.840 with somebody and you like each other, your voices start 0:38:56.920 --> 0:38:58.879 to come together a little bit, and so you might 0:38:58.920 --> 0:39:00.960 not notice it as a a listener. It might take 0:39:00.960 --> 0:39:03.680 a linguist to go in and you know, measure exactly 0:39:03.680 --> 0:39:06.399 how long your vowels are and how things are spaced. Um. 0:39:06.760 --> 0:39:09.480 But you can see these subtle differences and they actually 0:39:09.560 --> 0:39:13.640 happen moment to moment, and so you're getting this you know, 0:39:13.760 --> 0:39:17.080 kind of vocal accommodation and togetherness with the person you're 0:39:17.120 --> 0:39:22.040 talking to. So that's just the one on one interaction. UM. 0:39:22.080 --> 0:39:25.760 Now you can imagine you move to a new place, 0:39:26.120 --> 0:39:29.200 or you join a new social community, or you take 0:39:29.239 --> 0:39:32.000 on some new social identity and that comes with a 0:39:32.000 --> 0:39:34.560 new social group and a new social world, and then 0:39:34.880 --> 0:39:37.840 your voice is going to change to match that social 0:39:37.880 --> 0:39:41.799 world that you're in. Because fundamentally, the reason we all 0:39:41.840 --> 0:39:45.319 sound different from each other is about wanting to fit 0:39:45.400 --> 0:39:49.560 in or is about belonging and that thing. Yeah, it's 0:39:49.560 --> 0:39:52.600 about connecting and it can be really positive. It's about 0:39:52.640 --> 0:39:55.920 this feeling of identity and culture with your group, and 0:39:56.000 --> 0:39:58.920 language is so tied up in that. So this idea 0:39:59.040 --> 0:40:01.880 of well, why don't we just all speak exactly the 0:40:01.920 --> 0:40:04.279 same way, and then there'd be just no more, you know, 0:40:04.680 --> 0:40:07.960 no problems in the world. But it's just not how 0:40:08.040 --> 0:40:13.120 humans what a racial right, and so it's like it's 0:40:13.160 --> 0:40:17.319 you know, it just doesn't it's just not how humans work. 0:40:17.400 --> 0:40:20.040 We're never going to all speak exactly the same way. 0:40:20.200 --> 0:40:23.600 And so the solution if we want to head towards 0:40:23.600 --> 0:40:27.480 a more perfect union, Um, I think of I think 0:40:27.480 --> 0:40:30.200 his name is Mike from chapter one, this idea of 0:40:30.320 --> 0:40:34.640 linguistic diversity. Yeah, right, this idea, like, yeah, will you 0:40:34.719 --> 0:40:37.880 tell me about him? Yeah? So you know, this is 0:40:37.920 --> 0:40:40.560 the idea of somebody who you know, has all this 0:40:40.640 --> 0:40:43.920 diversity in his life and you know, his friends are 0:40:43.960 --> 0:40:48.000 from different racial groups, and he feels like, you know, 0:40:48.160 --> 0:40:52.160 he's just really progressive and that's great. You know, I'm 0:40:52.160 --> 0:40:54.400 not saying that he's not progressive or not trying to 0:40:54.440 --> 0:40:58.480 live you know, his ideal life. Um. But he notices 0:40:58.600 --> 0:41:02.440 then that all of his friends sound the same and 0:41:02.560 --> 0:41:06.440 you actually wouldn't be able to guess who was who, 0:41:06.480 --> 0:41:09.399 like match the friend to the photo, because they all 0:41:09.400 --> 0:41:13.840 have really similar educational backgrounds. Um. You know, just so 0:41:13.880 --> 0:41:18.320 many similarities among them, including the way that they spoke. 0:41:18.560 --> 0:41:20.680 And so you know, in terms of these kind of 0:41:20.719 --> 0:41:24.440 real world solutions, well, one thing is to reflect on 0:41:24.520 --> 0:41:27.640 linguistic diversity and think of it as an advantage to 0:41:27.719 --> 0:41:30.880 be exposed to different ways of speaking as another. And 0:41:31.040 --> 0:41:33.719 I think there's lots of advantages to different forms of diversity, 0:41:33.800 --> 0:41:36.200 so it's not to say it's the only one. But also, 0:41:36.239 --> 0:41:40.239 if you have kids, think about exposing kids to situations 0:41:40.239 --> 0:41:43.200 where people speak different languages, and I think that is 0:41:43.239 --> 0:41:46.120 a really good thing for children. Do you feel like 0:41:46.120 --> 0:41:50.560 there's sort of one social cognition study that everyone should 0:41:50.560 --> 0:41:53.040 know about, like that you wish were part of education, 0:41:53.520 --> 0:41:56.000 or not even one necessarily, but do you feel like 0:41:56.080 --> 0:41:58.960 it would be so helpful if this stuff was introduced 0:41:58.960 --> 0:42:02.120 early there my I have a researcher who works with 0:42:02.160 --> 0:42:06.560 me who graduated with a social linguistics degree, and they said, um, 0:42:06.920 --> 0:42:12.000 quote unquote, linguistics has really bad pr People don't know 0:42:12.160 --> 0:42:13.759 you know that, like everybody thinks they're an expert in 0:42:13.840 --> 0:42:17.759 language because like they talk. Yeah. Yeah. So this is 0:42:17.880 --> 0:42:23.120 parents where parents, you know, particularly say white parents who 0:42:23.200 --> 0:42:27.319 come into the lab and their kids express some sort 0:42:27.360 --> 0:42:30.080 of a racial attitude or bias, like liking the other 0:42:30.120 --> 0:42:33.920 white kids. Now they're very uncomfortable, which I think is 0:42:33.960 --> 0:42:36.120 a good thing in a sign of progress and wanting 0:42:36.160 --> 0:42:41.520 to understand you know, how these structurally racist societies are 0:42:41.520 --> 0:42:43.840 seeping into these five year old minds, right, Where is 0:42:43.880 --> 0:42:46.040 that coming from? And what we can do to address that. 0:42:46.040 --> 0:42:49.600 That's really important and it's good that parents are uncomfortable 0:42:49.600 --> 0:42:54.879 and want to change it. However, it's a serious contrast 0:42:55.040 --> 0:42:57.239 when a kid comes into my lab and you know, 0:42:57.280 --> 0:42:59.560 I had this study where they were white kids and 0:42:59.600 --> 0:43:03.480 they were um evaluating people who looked white or looked 0:43:03.520 --> 0:43:06.680 black and spoke in a native or a foreign accent 0:43:06.719 --> 0:43:10.080 of English. And when they expressed a preference for the 0:43:10.120 --> 0:43:14.040 white people, parents were just deeply uncomfortable, which again, you know, 0:43:14.239 --> 0:43:17.279 is something that that as a society we need to 0:43:17.320 --> 0:43:22.360 be deeply uncomfortable with. But when say they liked people 0:43:22.880 --> 0:43:26.959 who were black and spoke in a native accent over 0:43:27.040 --> 0:43:30.920 people who were white and spoken a foreign accent, parents 0:43:30.920 --> 0:43:35.040 are just so relieved and say, oh, look, you know, 0:43:36.040 --> 0:43:39.560 few my kids not racist. My kids, you know, just 0:43:40.120 --> 0:43:43.480 loves people who speak in English like I do. And 0:43:43.600 --> 0:43:48.880 so it's really reassuring to parents, and it doesn't usually 0:43:48.880 --> 0:43:53.920 occur to people that kids might be expressing two biases, 0:43:54.040 --> 0:43:57.640 one that's about race and one that's about speech. And 0:43:57.680 --> 0:44:01.279 that what people's accents are is the more our salient one, 0:44:01.560 --> 0:44:04.840 but that that's also a problem. Yeah, right, But you 0:44:04.840 --> 0:44:08.759 know it's also this like deeply primal thing apparently that 0:44:08.840 --> 0:44:12.040 we feel like we connect with people who sound like us. Yeah, 0:44:12.520 --> 0:44:15.160 and I think there's a way that that kid. You know, 0:44:15.280 --> 0:44:17.080 first of all, I'll say that five year old is 0:44:17.120 --> 0:44:20.239 not prejudiced in the way an adult is. And I 0:44:20.280 --> 0:44:24.120 really believe that. Um, you know, they're still learning what 0:44:24.239 --> 0:44:27.080 society has to teach them, and unfortunately a lot of 0:44:27.120 --> 0:44:31.479 that is negative based on race and speech. But they're 0:44:31.480 --> 0:44:35.200 still learning. But the idea that when a parent sees 0:44:35.239 --> 0:44:38.040 a kid expressing a preference for one kind of speech 0:44:38.120 --> 0:44:41.239 over another, and it's just kind of like few my 0:44:41.320 --> 0:44:44.120 kids just learning languages, there's absolutely no problem with it. 0:44:44.200 --> 0:44:47.560 That's the kind of them teaching that's going to facilitate 0:44:47.760 --> 0:44:52.080 linguistic prejudices growing with time, right, right, Because that is 0:44:52.120 --> 0:44:54.960 not I mean, it seems like what you're saying is 0:44:54.960 --> 0:44:58.240 that that is a stereotype that is completely culturally permissible. Still, 0:44:58.400 --> 0:45:06.000 exactly why do you study kids to teach us about adults? So, um, 0:45:06.040 --> 0:45:08.479 I mean that's that's why in many ways, to teach 0:45:08.560 --> 0:45:10.960 us about adults. So I mean, kids are important for 0:45:11.000 --> 0:45:15.759 their own sake. Um, and we can agree that. But 0:45:16.400 --> 0:45:19.359 a lot of why I study kids is because if 0:45:19.400 --> 0:45:23.640 we want to understand our social thinking, and we want 0:45:23.640 --> 0:45:28.040 to understand our our cognition about the world, children can 0:45:28.080 --> 0:45:31.160 give us so much insight into how we think about things, 0:45:31.200 --> 0:45:34.680 sort of where our cognitive system starts out, and then 0:45:34.760 --> 0:45:38.520 how experience layers on top of that. And so I 0:45:38.680 --> 0:45:40.719 like to think about it as we study kids to 0:45:40.840 --> 0:45:43.719 think about the building blocks of later thinking. And you 0:45:43.719 --> 0:45:47.480 know what we could do to change ourselves. Yeah, let's 0:45:47.560 --> 0:45:51.560 change ourselves. Okay, we're gonna take another quick break and 0:45:51.560 --> 0:45:53.040 then we're going to come back and find out who 0:45:53.080 --> 0:46:04.160 you brought in for us. Okay, so who have you 0:46:04.200 --> 0:46:07.399 brought in? I brought in Rachel Maddow and tell me 0:46:07.440 --> 0:46:13.160 about why. So I've loved her show for a really 0:46:13.160 --> 0:46:18.280 long time. And I feel like when I'm thinking about 0:46:18.760 --> 0:46:24.880 who's credible, I find her credible. And I think she's 0:46:25.239 --> 0:46:30.960 really angry in a way that feels righteous and correct 0:46:31.200 --> 0:46:34.520 to me. And I think it's really hard to pull 0:46:34.560 --> 0:46:39.279 off angry, and I think she does so really successfully. 0:46:39.320 --> 0:46:42.480 And so you know, i'd love to learn how can 0:46:42.520 --> 0:46:47.120 you be you know, how can you be angry in 0:46:47.400 --> 0:46:51.800 a real and meaningful way and not turn people off? 0:46:51.880 --> 0:46:54.759 Because I think, yeah, so i'd love to know how 0:46:54.800 --> 0:46:57.799 she does. Yeah, well, yeah, we're gonna we're gonna listen 0:46:57.800 --> 0:47:00.680 to a short clip of hers. I feel like an 0:47:00.760 --> 0:47:05.279 answer to that question, although it's not necessarily like, um, so, 0:47:05.360 --> 0:47:07.080 here's what to do with your mouth kind of a thing. 0:47:07.560 --> 0:47:11.000 But in terms of sort of mindset, I find that 0:47:11.680 --> 0:47:16.279 women tend to be heard when angry more dot dot 0:47:16.280 --> 0:47:21.120 dot when um it's very clear in both the content 0:47:21.160 --> 0:47:23.440 and in the style that it's on behalf of others, 0:47:25.320 --> 0:47:27.879 which just feels like there's all kinds of psychological data 0:47:27.960 --> 0:47:30.560 to back that up to. Yeah, no, that makes a 0:47:30.640 --> 0:47:34.120 lot of sense to me. But whenever we're mad, if 0:47:34.160 --> 0:47:36.400 we can take a moment and figure out how we 0:47:36.440 --> 0:47:38.880 can speak on behalf of if how it's actually about 0:47:38.880 --> 0:47:42.560 something larger than ourselves in a way, it's the righteousness 0:47:42.600 --> 0:47:44.640 thing that you talk about that that ignites a sense 0:47:44.640 --> 0:47:48.640 of righteousness, because you know, there's certainly I mean, I'm 0:47:48.640 --> 0:47:51.760 thinking of Rebecca Tracer's book Good and Mad, there's certainly 0:47:51.960 --> 0:47:54.120 a history of like when any of us is sort 0:47:54.120 --> 0:47:55.879 of mad in our own lives. If we just dig 0:47:55.920 --> 0:48:00.840 a little deeper, it's probably because of some injustice that thus, 0:48:00.880 --> 0:48:04.040 you know, we can say, maybe this is something that 0:48:04.120 --> 0:48:07.319 isn't just happening to me. So here you go having 0:48:07.360 --> 0:48:09.799 a patchwork policy here, having some states where it's stay 0:48:09.840 --> 0:48:11.719 at home in some places where it not. It's like 0:48:11.800 --> 0:48:14.760 having a pool where there's one section in the pool 0:48:14.920 --> 0:48:17.920 where it's okay to pee. It's like having an airplane 0:48:18.200 --> 0:48:20.560 where there's one section that where it's okay to smoke, 0:48:20.640 --> 0:48:22.960 but everything else you're gonna call non smoking, despite what 0:48:23.000 --> 0:48:24.680 all those people are gonna smell like when they get 0:48:24.680 --> 0:48:27.839 off that plane. I mean, Dr Fauci at least is saying, 0:48:28.040 --> 0:48:30.040 let's have a national stay at home order? Why don't 0:48:30.040 --> 0:48:32.719 we have one yet? The Surgeon General is going on 0:48:32.760 --> 0:48:35.360 the Today Show and saying, I think we should have 0:48:35.400 --> 0:48:37.799 a national stay at home order? Can I just tell 0:48:37.840 --> 0:48:41.000 people that we do even if we don't. Yeah, she's 0:48:41.040 --> 0:48:47.040 so satisfied. Good right. I Mean I was once told 0:48:47.120 --> 0:48:52.040 I coached a man who is running for the US Senate. Uh, 0:48:52.120 --> 0:48:54.480 sort of did a one day consultancy coaching with him, 0:48:54.520 --> 0:48:58.120 and he said, at the end, I know who you 0:48:58.239 --> 0:49:01.880 remind me of Rachel at out and I was like, 0:49:01.920 --> 0:49:05.239 at once deeply flattered and also like, wow, I am 0:49:05.320 --> 0:49:08.200 actually kind of nothing like Rachel Maddow. And I feel 0:49:08.200 --> 0:49:11.840 like he just has no other strong women, like he 0:49:11.880 --> 0:49:15.680 has one archetype. But it is useful to think of Rachel. 0:49:15.960 --> 0:49:18.000 I think it is a bit of an archetype for 0:49:18.040 --> 0:49:19.920 a lot of us, because it's you're absolutely right, and 0:49:19.960 --> 0:49:23.239 in fact I chose that bit because you're you're right. 0:49:23.239 --> 0:49:26.399 I mean, she's furious, but she also has the sort 0:49:26.440 --> 0:49:30.360 of presence of mind and of spirit to be able 0:49:30.400 --> 0:49:33.320 to joke within that. But the joking is very pointed. 0:49:33.400 --> 0:49:37.160 It's not like to diffuse the tension. It's so spot on. 0:49:37.640 --> 0:49:41.160 And then I also listened and I have the feeling 0:49:42.000 --> 0:49:45.640 how much somebody who is not like me in many 0:49:45.680 --> 0:49:49.960 ways would be really would not like her right, and 0:49:50.000 --> 0:49:56.080 you you know, and that feels so unfair, and it's 0:49:56.080 --> 0:49:59.560 like I I feel this, I feel a political divide 0:49:59.640 --> 0:50:03.359 to you know, but that everything she says feels like 0:50:03.440 --> 0:50:09.520 it's so spot on and well reasoned, and you know, 0:50:09.960 --> 0:50:13.200 just that was a great example that she gets it 0:50:13.320 --> 0:50:18.600 and she explains it, and there's craziness in this world, 0:50:18.640 --> 0:50:21.200 and she cuts through that, do you feel like in 0:50:21.320 --> 0:50:24.759 your career that you have ever had issues with being 0:50:24.800 --> 0:50:31.080 taken seriously? So, I think I've been fortunate in so 0:50:31.120 --> 0:50:36.880 many ways in my career, UM and I've had the 0:50:36.960 --> 0:50:41.560 benefit of having really strong female mentors, and that's been 0:50:41.640 --> 0:50:45.239 really meaningful to me. I kind of sensed that from 0:50:45.239 --> 0:50:48.319 your acknowledgements in your book. I was wondering if that 0:50:48.560 --> 0:50:50.719 it seemed like. And also that the people that you 0:50:50.880 --> 0:50:54.320 have coming up behind you, who you've you've hired as um, 0:50:54.360 --> 0:50:57.799 you know, post docs or research assistance for women. So 0:50:58.000 --> 0:51:03.120 I feel like I've had kind of a It's not 0:51:03.280 --> 0:51:06.239 you know, not to say that every step of the 0:51:06.280 --> 0:51:09.719 way has been perfect, for sure, but I feel like 0:51:09.760 --> 0:51:13.200 when there has been a misstep or when there has 0:51:13.280 --> 0:51:19.280 been a time where I felt not, you know, not valued, 0:51:19.360 --> 0:51:23.280 or something was unfair, that I've had these really strong 0:51:23.640 --> 0:51:27.200 female mentors that I've been able to go to and 0:51:27.200 --> 0:51:29.719 that I feel like, are you know, mentoring me and 0:51:29.800 --> 0:51:31.920 championing me? And yeah, I do want to try to 0:51:32.000 --> 0:51:36.359 do that for the next generation of scholars coming up. 0:51:36.440 --> 0:51:40.520 For sure. It also feels like there's an element tell 0:51:40.560 --> 0:51:43.520 me if this is true that that whether it's socio 0:51:43.600 --> 0:51:48.120 linguistics or this sort of more complicated interdisciplinary that, Um, 0:51:48.160 --> 0:51:51.680 there's sort of a inherent reason why there might be 0:51:51.719 --> 0:51:55.400 more women in that in that field, or that we 0:51:55.520 --> 0:51:58.319 might be drawn to it because there is this long 0:51:58.480 --> 0:52:00.839 history of having to sort of understand and these these 0:52:00.920 --> 0:52:05.120 nuances of social interactions in order to get ahead. I 0:52:05.120 --> 0:52:10.600 think that's possible, and I think that language is so 0:52:10.880 --> 0:52:16.520 personal to people and so um, you know, I do. 0:52:17.800 --> 0:52:22.960 I do feel like it's it's a field where, um, 0:52:22.960 --> 0:52:26.480 people can really connect with it and it can connect 0:52:26.520 --> 0:52:29.880 with their own lives. Yeah, I love that. Thanks for 0:52:29.960 --> 0:52:33.480 doing that work for us, Catherine. Thank you for speaking 0:52:33.520 --> 0:52:36.560 with me today. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. 0:52:36.680 --> 0:52:39.520 It was such a pleasure to meet you and you know, 0:52:39.600 --> 0:52:43.120 talk about all these questions with you. And I should say, 0:52:43.120 --> 0:52:46.480 if anyone wants to enroll their kids in your studies, 0:52:46.760 --> 0:52:49.799 what's the best way to find out more? If anybody 0:52:49.840 --> 0:52:53.840 listening wants to participate in research at home with their kids, 0:52:54.000 --> 0:52:57.160 you know, you can absolutely sign up. So my lab 0:52:57.360 --> 0:53:02.600 is d SC Lab dot U Chicago, dot E DU 0:53:02.719 --> 0:53:07.080 though a lot of different developmental psychology labs just like mine, 0:53:07.200 --> 0:53:10.080 are online now and so there might be other opportunities too. 0:53:10.239 --> 0:53:11.640 But you know, if you want to read about my 0:53:11.680 --> 0:53:15.080 book How You Say It and my research with my 0:53:15.120 --> 0:53:20.200 graduate students, you can find it there. Thank you to 0:53:20.280 --> 0:53:23.080 Katherine Kindler for coming in and we will have all 0:53:23.120 --> 0:53:25.879 of the info that she just shared about her lab 0:53:25.920 --> 0:53:28.840 and her research and her book in our show notes 0:53:28.960 --> 0:53:31.520 of course, and on our website Permission to Speak Pod 0:53:31.880 --> 0:53:37.000 dot calm and join me tomorrow on Instagram at Permission 0:53:37.000 --> 0:53:40.840 to Speak Pod at ten am for an ig live 0:53:42.040 --> 0:53:46.360 with very special guest, Hadar Shamash. She is a accent 0:53:46.560 --> 0:53:49.200 and English language coach for people all around the world. 0:53:49.200 --> 0:53:53.880 She has a massive and robust and loving and really 0:53:53.920 --> 0:53:58.080 exciting platform, the Accents Way, and we found each other 0:53:58.200 --> 0:54:02.239 across the world. She's based in Israel, and um, you know, 0:54:02.320 --> 0:54:04.360 it's a real meeting of the minds and meeting of 0:54:04.400 --> 0:54:08.160 the hearts because both of us help people with like 0:54:08.480 --> 0:54:10.799 you know, the logistics of the sounds that come out 0:54:10.800 --> 0:54:14.480 of our mouths, but also and equally, if not more importantly, 0:54:14.760 --> 0:54:17.800 with a sense of power and freedom and joy around 0:54:18.360 --> 0:54:20.920 you know, the sounds that come out and with you know, 0:54:21.120 --> 0:54:24.680 finding peace with sounding different than the quote unquote standard. 0:54:25.320 --> 0:54:28.720 It's gonna be great. We're going to have a lovely 0:54:29.040 --> 0:54:34.000 media conversation about accent bias in honor of Katherine ken 0:54:34.040 --> 0:54:41.239 Fler's episode. Thank you to Sophie Lichterman and the team 0:54:41.239 --> 0:54:44.160 at I Heart Radio and all of you. We're recording 0:54:44.160 --> 0:54:47.760 this podcast at various locations around Los Angeles on land 0:54:47.800 --> 0:54:51.160 that is the historic gathering place for the Tongva indigenous tribe, 0:54:51.200 --> 0:54:53.240 and you can visit us d a C dot us 0:54:53.360 --> 0:54:58.880 to learn more about honoring Native land. Permission to Speak 0:54:58.960 --> 0:55:02.120 is a production of I Radio and Double Vision, executive 0:55:02.160 --> 0:55:05.640 produced by Katherine Burke Canton and Mark Canton. For more 0:55:05.680 --> 0:55:08.120 podcasts from my Heart Radio, listen on the I heart 0:55:08.160 --> 0:55:11.560 Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.