1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. Hello listeners, Molly Conger here, I've got 2 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: something a little different for you this week, something a 3 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: little lighter. I will finally wrap up the South Africa 4 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:25,079 Speaker 1: story arc next week, and that story will end the 5 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: way it began, with the President of the United States 6 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: peddling conspiracy theories about why genocide. But I'm going to 7 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: level with you, I just wasn't in the mood this 8 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: week to cut clips from audio of Jordan Peterson interviewing 9 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:41,479 Speaker 1: a guy trying to sell real estate in a planned 10 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:45,680 Speaker 1: Ethno state. That shit sucks, And I still haven't made 11 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: the seating chart for my wedding next week. I mentioned, 12 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: probably a month ago at this point now that I 13 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: was thinking about doing a listener Q and a episode 14 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:58,279 Speaker 1: sometime soon, and then I promptly got lost down an 15 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: infinite series of bottomless side quests. I'm still lost down there, 16 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: but my attention has been pretty divided lately, and I 17 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 1: felt like this was the right week to try and 18 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 1: answer some of your questions. I combed through the questions 19 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: you all submitted on the Weird Little Guys subreddit, and 20 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:20,040 Speaker 1: they seem to fall into a few main categories. There 21 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: are questions about me questions about my research and writing methodology, 22 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: about how the show gets made, and questions about the 23 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: lives of the Weird Little Guys. And I can answer 24 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: some of those for sure, but by far the most 25 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:40,119 Speaker 1: common questions, both from you all on the subreddit and 26 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: from the groups of university students I've had the opportunity 27 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: to speak with in the last few months, are ones 28 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: I don't really have good answers for. They aren't questions 29 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: of fact. The answers aren't in a newspaper archive, they 30 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: aren't something I can dig up in the court records. 31 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: They're questions of the soul. I've been invited to speak 32 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:04,720 Speaker 1: to students at the University of Richmond and the University 33 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: of Virginia a few times this semester, and every time, 34 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 1: regardless of what the subject of the class or of 35 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: the event is, no matter what I have prepared or 36 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: how the professor prompts the group, people always ask me 37 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: one question, in particular, Can people change? Can you bring 38 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,639 Speaker 1: someone back once they've become the kind of guy who 39 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: might end up on an episode of Weird Little Guys. 40 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:37,359 Speaker 1: The short answer is yes, Yes, of course they can. 41 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 1: There's always always hope. I believe that because I have to. 42 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: If I didn't, I don't think I could do this. 43 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: Maybe I shouldn't have started this with the hardest question, 44 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: especially if. 45 00:02:55,639 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 2: I'm not even going to answer it. 46 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 1: But I wanted to address it because I know it's 47 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: one A lot of you have asked yourselves as you 48 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:06,399 Speaker 1: listen to the show, And like I said, I don't 49 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: have the answer, not really. I'm not a philosopher or 50 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: an ethicist or a theologian, not a psychologist or a sociologist, 51 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: and I don't have any direct experience in deradicalization, the 52 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: work of engaging with people who want to leave the 53 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: movement and supporting them in that process. But I think 54 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: the lack of a definitive answer to this question is 55 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: ultimately a good thing. If the question remains open, you 56 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: have to constantly revisit it, reassess it. I spend so 57 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: much of my time wading through the evidence that evil exists. 58 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 1: I should constantly re evaluate what I think that means. 59 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: And I've seen a lot of monstrous things. I've watched 60 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: live streamed mass murders and red manifestos. I've sat in 61 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: little courtrooms just feet away from men with massive stockpiles 62 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,559 Speaker 1: of weapons who were planning mass casualty events and assassinations. 63 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: I've watched men who proudly call themselves Nazis, men who 64 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: worship Hitler laugh in the faces of their own victims, 65 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: fed a casual chat in a public park with a 66 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 1: member of rape Waffen. So maybe you don't expect me 67 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 1: to say this, but I absolutely still believe that every 68 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:30,479 Speaker 1: single one of them is still human. They're still reachable. 69 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: There is still the possibility, however remote, that they could 70 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: wake up one day and realize they were wrong, that 71 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: they took a wrong turn and wound up down a 72 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: dead end following an ideology that hurts everyone, including themselves. 73 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: The catches they have to want to, and they rarely do. 74 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: Redemption isn't something that just happens to a guy. It's 75 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: something that's hard fought for and not always one and 76 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: if they're doing it right, you'll probably never know about it. 77 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,359 Speaker 1: There are real life stories of people in the movement 78 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: who made one black friend or one Jewish friend, one 79 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 1: gay friend, whatever, and then realize that those kinds of 80 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: people are human and that led them to question and 81 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 1: then renounce their beliefs. 82 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 2: It happens, but. 83 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:31,159 Speaker 1: That's a lot to ask of marginalized people. I'm not 84 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: telling you to go out there and love a Nazi 85 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 1: until he. 86 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 2: Loves you back. 87 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 1: It doesn't usually work, and it doesn't sound like a 88 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:42,600 Speaker 1: fulfilling way to spend your time. And there are some 89 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 1: splashy news stories every now and again about a former 90 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 1: neo Nazi on a redemption arc, but the real work 91 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: of making amends is quiet and boring and perhaps quite rare. 92 00:05:57,680 --> 00:05:58,120 Speaker 2: I think, in. 93 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,160 Speaker 1: Most cases, the best we can hope for it as 94 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: a half asked version. Guys who quit the movement and 95 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: just stop hurting other people. They don't really interrogate their 96 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 1: own past actions. They don't try to undo the harm 97 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: they did. They don't apologize, They just stop actively becoming worse. 98 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: And that's much more common. I think that happens all 99 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: the time. But there's no news story when a guy 100 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: gets bored of posting race war memes and drops out 101 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:30,120 Speaker 1: of the terrorism planning chat. And I want to be clear, 102 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: I'm not talking about absolution. 103 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 2: I don't mean that. 104 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: I believe every mass shooter has within him the possibility 105 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 1: of becoming the kind of guy you'd enjoy hanging out 106 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: with or trust with your children. It doesn't mean anyone 107 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 1: has to forgive him. I don't mean that their crimes 108 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: should go unpunished if they take back all the stuff 109 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: they said about Hitler, but I think we have to 110 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: leave the door open. The question one of you posted 111 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: on the subreddit reads, do you think there is a 112 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: point of no why turn for a person when former 113 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 1: friends and family have to give up trying to bring 114 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: a person back on the right track? And if so, 115 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: what defines that point? And this is a question you 116 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: have to answer for yourselves individually. 117 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 2: I don't think there. 118 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: Exists a specific, definitive goalpost here, a point of no return. 119 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 2: But if there is someone. 120 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 1: Like this in your life, this question is yours to answer, 121 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: because there may come a point where you don't feel 122 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: safe continuing to engage with a friend or a loved 123 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: one who has turned towards extremism, And that's valid, But 124 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: I don't think that means that person is lost forever. 125 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: This is an opinion of mine that makes people pretty 126 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 1: mad sometimes, and that's okay. I won't tell you what 127 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,000 Speaker 1: should be in your heart. I will never ask you 128 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: to forgive any of these men. Hell I don't, but 129 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: I do try to approach my work with hard eyes 130 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: and a soft heart. And what I mean by that 131 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: is I want to look clearly at the harm a 132 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: man has done, but hope for the day that he 133 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: sees that harm too. And with that out of the way, 134 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: let's get to some questions. 135 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 2: I do have answers for. 136 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: One of you asked, do you ever find information about 137 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: how the families of weird little guys feel about or 138 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: react to their actions? Do more of these guys get 139 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: cut off or willingly cut off ties with their relatives? 140 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: Or is it more of a family affair, like driving 141 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 1: your uncle to the insurrection? And this is a question 142 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: with a lot of answers. It sort of reminds me 143 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: of the opening line of Anna Karenna. Right, all happy 144 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: families are alike. Each unhappy family is unhappy in its 145 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: own way, and every Nazis family deals with the problem. 146 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 2: In their own way. 147 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: But there are some broad categories here. You've got movement families, 148 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:02,679 Speaker 1: families where the weird little guy was raised in an 149 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 1: environment where his beliefs were normal and encouraged. There are 150 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 1: families in denial where the parents don't believe it's that serious, 151 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,199 Speaker 1: they don't want to acknowledge it, or they claim to 152 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: have had no idea what was going on. And then 153 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,679 Speaker 1: there are the families that do cut ties or make 154 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: public disavowals of their relatives beliefs and actions. For listeners 155 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 1: who may have missed the episode, the question asker is 156 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:30,200 Speaker 1: referring to their driving your uncle to the insurrection is 157 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:33,559 Speaker 1: a reference to Matthew and Dale Huddle, the subjects of 158 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,439 Speaker 1: the episode A short lived pardon from back in February. 159 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: Matthew Huddle was the recently pardoned January sixth defendant who 160 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:42,959 Speaker 1: was killed by a police officer during a traffic stop 161 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: earlier this year. He wasn't really a true believer in anything, 162 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: but he went to the US capital on January sixth, 163 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one with his uncle Dale, and Dale Huddle 164 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: was a man who had some pretty strong beliefs about 165 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:57,559 Speaker 1: the government. 166 00:09:59,120 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 2: His case is a bit of. 167 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 1: An outlier within that first category, though, because I wouldn't 168 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: call the Huddles a movement family. Matthew just sort of 169 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 1: went along for the ride. But movement families are a 170 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: very real thing. There are plenty of people who didn't 171 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: need four Chan or telegram to get radicalized because it's 172 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: just how they were raised. I'm sure plenty of parents 173 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 1: were surprised when they saw photos of their sons on 174 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,679 Speaker 1: the news after the Unite the Right rally, but not 175 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 1: all of them. Jacob Goodwin, one of the men convicted 176 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,719 Speaker 1: for the brutal beating of a counter protester, got a 177 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 1: ride to the rally from his mother. After his arrest, 178 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,319 Speaker 1: she went on a Nazi podcast to talk about his case, 179 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: and she said that during her last visit with him 180 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 1: in prison, she told him, quote, don't you ever tell 181 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: Mama you're sorry for being a good, honorable man. A 182 00:10:55,440 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: lot of the movement families I can think of off 183 00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 1: the top of my head are ones that deserve their 184 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: own episodes. I know at least one listener on the 185 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:06,560 Speaker 1: subreddit is absolutely dying for me to finally do an 186 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: episode about the Arkansas based neo Nazi Billy Roper. He 187 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: was raised in a clan family and now he's trying 188 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: to start a white separatist community for other movement families. 189 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: And there are families like the Bellogs. Alan Bellog was 190 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: a member of the American Nazi Party in the seventies, 191 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: and he joined National Alliance in its very earliest days. 192 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: He worked for David Duke's campaign in nineteen eighty eight, 193 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: and he was the Pennsylvania unit leader for National Alliance 194 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,440 Speaker 1: in the eighties. National Alliance founder William Luther Pearce told 195 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: his biographer quote Bellog would do things like staple Alliance 196 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: blackards to telephone polls, and he would punch out anybody 197 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 1: who gave him a bad time while he was doing it. 198 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,559 Speaker 1: Sometimes this would result in legal difficulties, and one time, 199 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: when Bellog got fined five hundred dollars, I took up 200 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 1: a collection at one of our national conventions to pay 201 00:11:55,800 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: us fine. Alan Bellog's son, Warren was raised in the moment. 202 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 1: The father and son duo were in recent years founding 203 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: members of the now defunct neo Nazi group the National 204 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:11,559 Speaker 1: Justice Party. When National Justice Party collapsed in twenty twenty three, 205 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 1: the current leader of National Alliance, Will Williams, wrote, Alan 206 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: Bellog had been a dedicated Alliance member for years and 207 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: as a good man, I met him and his son, 208 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 1: Warren when Warren was twelve years old. The Alliance will 209 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: leave the door cracked for good men like the Belllogs 210 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 1: to rejoin. The Belllogs attended the twenty seventeen Unite the 211 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: right rally here in Charlottesville together, but only Warren signed 212 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 1: his name to a federal lawsuit against the city for 213 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:44,599 Speaker 1: failing to proactively facilitate the Nazi rally. His case was 214 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 1: dismissed by the Western District of Virginia, and that decision 215 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: was upheld by the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals last year. 216 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: It's a very silly little lawsuit with no legal merit, 217 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: so I don't expect his recent petition to have it 218 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: heard by the Supreme Court. We'll go anywhere, but the 219 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: complaint itself is so laughable that maybe I'll do a 220 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: minisode on it. I think most families fall into the 221 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 1: second category, the ones who neither share nor denounce the 222 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: views of their family member. They either didn't know, didn't understand, 223 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: didn't think it was serious, didn't think he meant it, 224 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 1: or they just didn't want to see it. Some of 225 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: them are embarrassed by it, but others are indignant. They 226 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: don't understand why everyone is making such a big deal 227 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 1: out of this thing that they'd convince themselves was just 228 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 1: a harmless quirk of their otherwise very wonderful son. 229 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 2: I see this most often in the. 230 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: Letters that mothers write to the judge after their son 231 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 1: is convicted of something horrible, but before he's sentenced. A 232 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: lot of these letters avoid this subject altogether, and they're 233 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 1: just sort of a list of his positive qualities. He's 234 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 1: a boy scout, he had a black best friend in 235 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: middle school. He moses grandmother's lawn, he's a good boy. 236 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: I can think of two cases actually where a defendant's 237 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 1: parent told the court that their son isn't actually a Nazi, 238 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 1: it's just that he's autistic and this is his special interest. 239 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 1: It's such a profoundly weird thing to say, and it's 240 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: wild that I've seen it twice. For the record, I 241 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: do know some people whose special interest is Nazi stuff, 242 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: but they aren't out there being Nazis. They're some of 243 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: the best anti fascist researchers. I think the most satisfying 244 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: part of this answer for the listener is going to 245 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: be the third category, families who publicly disavow their Nazi relative. 246 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: I'm sure there are plenty of families who disown a relative, 247 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: but a lot of that happens quietly. It's ugly business, 248 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: and most people don't air this kind of dirty laundry. 249 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: One of these stories made national news. Back in twenty seventeen, 250 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: on the Monday morning after the deadly Nazi rally here 251 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: in Charlottesville, a newspaper in Fargo, North Dakota published an 252 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: open letter from a father. The letter begins, my name 253 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: is Pierce Teft, and I am writing to all with 254 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: regards to my youngest son, Peter Teft, an avowed white nationalist. 255 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: He doesn't mince words, writing, I, along with all of 256 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: his siblings and his entire family, wish to loudly repudiate 257 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: my son's vile, hateful and racist rhetoric in actions. We 258 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,000 Speaker 1: do not know specifically where he learned these beliefs. He 259 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 1: did not learn them at home. It's a pretty striking letter. 260 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: Like I said, most families stay quiet about this sort 261 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: of thing, but Teff's father felt it was his responsibility 262 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:53,160 Speaker 1: to denounce his son, writing we have been silent up 263 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 1: until now, but we see now this was a mistake. 264 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: It was the silence of good people that allowed the 265 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: Nazis to flourish the first time around, and it is 266 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 1: the silence of good people that is allowing them to 267 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: flourish now. Peter Teft, my son is not welcome at 268 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 1: our family gatherings. 269 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:09,600 Speaker 2: Any longer. 270 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: I pray my prodigal son will renounce his hateful beliefs 271 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: and return home then and only then, while I lay 272 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 1: out the feast. His hateful opinions are bringing hateful rhetoric 273 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: to his siblings, cousins, nieces, and nephews, as well as 274 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: his parents. Why must we be guilty by association? Again, 275 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: none of his beliefs were learned at home. We do not, 276 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 1: never have, and never will accept his twisted worldview. He 277 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: once joked, the thing about us fascists is it's not 278 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: that we don't believe in freedom of speech. You can 279 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 1: say whatever you want. We'll just throw you in an oven, Peter, 280 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: you will have to shovel our bodies into. 281 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 2: The oven too. 282 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: Please, Son, renounce the hate, accept in love all. And 283 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: that's kind of what I was getting at earlier about 284 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: leaving the door open. His family isn't saying they hate him, 285 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 1: just that they can't love him while he's busy hating 286 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:06,879 Speaker 1: everyone else. 287 00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 2: The door is open. It's his choice. As C. S. 288 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: Lewis said, the doors of hell are locked from the inside. 289 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: And in the years since his father wrote that letter, 290 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 1: Peter Teft has continued to choose white nationalism over his family. 291 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 2: Most of the white. 292 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,159 Speaker 1: Supremacists I can think of whose families have publicly spoken 293 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: out against them are movement leaders. That's obviously because there 294 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:51,600 Speaker 1: just aren't news stories about random racists getting disowned. It's 295 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: only in the news if the Nazi is newsworthy, and 296 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 1: most families wouldn't make a public announcement about it unless 297 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: the situation was already public against their will. So the 298 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:04,439 Speaker 1: examples that come most readily to mind are people like 299 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: Don Black, William Luther Peers, and Jared Taylor. I will 300 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,320 Speaker 1: at some point have to do some episodes about Don Black, 301 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: the klansman who founded the neo Nazi forum Stormfront. That's 302 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: going to be a whole ordeal. It's a very long story. 303 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 1: But when it comes to public disavowals of a racist parent, 304 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 1: it's hard to beat the story of Adrianne Black. Her 305 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: recent book, The Klansman's Son is a fascinating read, and 306 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: I'll have to save the details for another day. But 307 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 1: she was as raised in the movement as it is 308 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:43,879 Speaker 1: possible to be. Don Black was a movement leader, and 309 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: he was raising his son to be his successor. As 310 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,360 Speaker 1: a child, Adrianne Black learned to code so she could 311 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: run the children's section of her father's Nazi website. She 312 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: attended conferences and rallies, and co hosted a Nazi radio 313 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: show with her father. She was a true believer until 314 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: she wasn't. She went away to college and met people 315 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: out in the real world that led her to question 316 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,880 Speaker 1: the beliefs she'd been raised with, and then she publicly 317 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: denounced those beliefs in twenty thirteen in an open letter 318 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 1: published by the Southern Poverty Law Center. If you're looking 319 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 1: for her book, The Klansman's Son, it's published under her 320 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: former name R. 321 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 2: Derrick Black. 322 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: The book was her public coming out as a transwoman. 323 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,879 Speaker 1: William Luther Pierce, the founder of National Alliance and the 324 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: author of the Turner Diaries, had twin sons. One of 325 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 1: them is very private, but one of them, Kelvin Pierce, 326 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: published a memoir in twenty twenty called Sins of My Father, 327 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,240 Speaker 1: and it is very much a personal memoir. It's about 328 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 1: his childhood and his recollection and the way he perceived 329 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,200 Speaker 1: his father as a child. But it is a very 330 00:19:55,240 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: clear picture a terrible man. Interesting that both Kelvin Pierce 331 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 1: and Adrianne Black pivoted from private reflection on their fathers 332 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 1: to loud public denunciation at around the same time. They 333 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 1: both point to the Unite the Right rally in twenty 334 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: seventeen and the election of Donald Trump in twenty sixteen 335 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: as turning points. Helen Pierce wrote in his book quote 336 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 1: the swastikas and flaming torches brought back so many memories, 337 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: such visceral feelings that I knew I had to speak 338 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: out about the racism still so deeply rooted in our society. 339 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,160 Speaker 1: In a New York Times opinion piece published right after 340 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: the twenty sixteen election, Adrian Black wrote that after hearing 341 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: Trump's campaign launch speech, in which he called Mexican immigrants 342 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: rapists quote, I spent the rest of the election wondering 343 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 1: how much my movement had set the stage for his. 344 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 1: Now I see the anger I was raised with rocking 345 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 1: the nation. And then there's Jared Taylor. I've mentioned him 346 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: a handful of times in passing. He's the white supremacist 347 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 1: writer behind American Renaissance. His father's disavowal of his son's 348 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 1: beliefs was less public than entire memoirs written by Kelvin 349 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: Pears from Adrian Black, but it's worth mentioning. Jared Taylor's 350 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: parents were Presbyterian missionaries. His mother's described in an old 351 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 1: newspaper article as a diehard liberal. His father, Reverend Archibald Taylor, 352 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,120 Speaker 1: told a newspaper in nineteen ninety six that he could 353 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: no longer discuss politics with his son, and the reverend 354 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: attempted to set up meetings between his son and black 355 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: civil rights leaders like Reverend Louis Coleman in the hopes 356 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:49,720 Speaker 1: of changing his son's mind. That article from nineteen ninety 357 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,119 Speaker 1: six doesn't say if that meeting actually took place, but 358 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: if it did, I don't think Jared Taylor learned anything 359 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:59,880 Speaker 1: from it. Another chunk of the questions you all sent 360 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,439 Speaker 1: in we're about the process. How do I pick a 361 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: weird little guy? Where do I start? How do I 362 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: organize my notes? The answer to this is embarrassing. I 363 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 1: mean to other people have a good answer for this. 364 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,960 Speaker 1: Am I supposed to have a coherent process? There are 365 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,679 Speaker 1: a whole university courses on things like research methodology, so 366 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: I guess there probably is a correct answer, But that's 367 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 1: not how I do things. I dropped out of college 368 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 1: because I'm not great at deadlines or following directions. So 369 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 1: I'm sure I missed some vital instruction on best practices 370 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 1: in research. No, I fear one of you hit on 371 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: the truth in your question. Someone submitted the question what 372 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:48,400 Speaker 1: is the journey of finding a new weird little guy 373 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 1: to putting out a new episode? 374 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 2: Do you have a process or a flow chart. 375 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: Of sorts that you follow or do you just go 376 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: off vibes and end up with a finished product? It's vibes. 377 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: I'm so sorry, but it is just vibes. When I 378 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: was talking to those university students, I wanted so badly 379 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 1: to be able to offer them some kind of useful 380 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 1: advice for doing this kind of research. 381 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:13,919 Speaker 2: But I have absolutely no idea. 382 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: How I could advise you to proceed with a similar 383 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:20,880 Speaker 1: project because I have no idea what I'm doing as 384 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: far as topic selection. Months ago, when the show was 385 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: still really new, I was a little worried that I 386 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 1: might not be able to come up with a good 387 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,919 Speaker 1: idea every single week. I know there are plenty of 388 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: weird little guys out there, sure, but how many of 389 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,199 Speaker 1: them would make a good story. So I made a 390 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: list of potential episode ideas, and I've got fifty or 391 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:48,520 Speaker 1: sixty potential episode topics on that list, and some of 392 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: them would definitely be multi episode arcs. 393 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:52,400 Speaker 2: I mean, that's probably two years. 394 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: Worth of episodes on the list, and I've never once 395 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 1: pulled a single idea off that list to actually do 396 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:04,119 Speaker 1: an episode about. I just sort of float down the 397 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: river of my curiosity, and whatever little fragment of an 398 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: idea I get stuck on ends up as the starting 399 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 1: point for an episode. It's a little chaotic. Back in December, 400 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: I was trying to do a couple of episodes about 401 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 1: a group called the Order, a Nazi gang that hoped 402 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: to finance the race war through armed robbery. But I 403 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: never did because as I was putting together my notes 404 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: on their ringleader, Robert Matthews, it got distracted. 405 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 2: I mean, there's a whole. 406 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 1: Story about the robberies, the murder of Alan Berg and Colorado, 407 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: the informant who betrayed them, Robert Matthews burned to death 408 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: during a standoff with federal agents. There were trials and appeals, 409 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: there's David Lane's prison writings, and I'm going to circle 410 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,639 Speaker 1: back to all that because there's a lot there. But 411 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: back in December, when I thought that's what I was 412 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 1: going to write, I didn't write it at all. I 413 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:05,679 Speaker 1: asked myself one little question about whatever happened to all 414 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 1: that money they. 415 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,640 Speaker 2: Stole, and then I had no choice. 416 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,439 Speaker 1: I floated down the river and landed on a different 417 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: idea entirely that group, the Order, robbed a Brink's armored 418 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,160 Speaker 1: car in the summer of nineteen eighty four and made 419 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 1: off with millions of dollars, and that money ended up 420 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 1: in a lot of hands. Robert Matthews himself drove cross 421 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: country handing out bags of cash to movement leaders, and 422 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 1: one of those bags of cash ended up with Tom Metzger. 423 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: And it was that bag of cash that knocked me 424 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: off course for nearly two months. First I got curious 425 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: about Metzger's public access TV show, and that made me 426 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: curious about other Nazis doing public access TV shows in 427 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 1: the eighties and nineties, and that led me to Herb Poinset, 428 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: the Florida chiropractor who not only hosted his own racist 429 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,080 Speaker 1: public access TV show, but he was the shareholder representative 430 00:25:58,119 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 1: for that neo Nazi group who tried to get eight 431 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: ten and Tea to end its diversity programs in nineteen 432 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: eighty eight, and down that same rabbit hole was another 433 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: racist cable access TV show, a single episode of a 434 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 1: program called Clansas City Cable hosted by Dennis Mayhon. 435 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 2: And then I got really lost. 436 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: I spent five episodes tracking Dennis Mayhon's career as a 437 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,439 Speaker 1: professional racist, from his early days in the Klan to 438 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: his relationship with an ATF informant who accused him of 439 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: helping plan the Oklahoma City bombing, to his eventual conviction 440 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,199 Speaker 1: for sending a mailbomb to the diversity office of Scottsdale, Arizona. 441 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: And then suddenly it's two months later and I never 442 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: wrote the episode I started about Robert Matthews, and the 443 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 1: same thing happened again. In February. I sat down to 444 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,439 Speaker 1: write an episode about Billy Roper. I really did. To 445 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 1: the person who keeps asking me to write about Billy Roper, 446 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 1: I really did start. I started my notes, I was 447 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,320 Speaker 1: mapping out the timeline of his life, and then I 448 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,959 Speaker 1: got hung up. I saw a picture of Billy at 449 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 1: a rally in Arkansas in twenty twelve, and I thought 450 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 1: I'd get a little background information about that rally and 451 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: it would get a paragraph or two in the episode, 452 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, I'm six episodes deep 453 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: into a story about terrorism and apartheid South Africa. 454 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:21,400 Speaker 2: It just happens. 455 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: So to the people asking if I think I might 456 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: ever run out of episode ideas, no, absolutely not. I 457 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,399 Speaker 1: will never run out of episode ideas. The list of 458 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: potential episodes is actually growing exponentially because every episode turns 459 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: up a new side character, and I'm starting to realize 460 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:43,439 Speaker 1: every guy in these stories has his own entire weird 461 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 1: situation going on, if you know how to dig deep. 462 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 2: Enough to find it. 463 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 1: I wanted to As for organizing my research, this is 464 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,919 Speaker 1: a similarly disappointing answer for anyone who thought I might 465 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: have any useful advice. I take all my notes in 466 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,280 Speaker 1: Google Docs these days, and I don't know when they 467 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,400 Speaker 1: added this feature. I feel like it was kind of recently, 468 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,920 Speaker 1: but they let you add little tabs in the sidebar. 469 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 1: So I'll have a tab where I toss in all 470 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: the links to my sources, a tab where I just 471 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 1: list the names of every guy I come across, so 472 00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 1: I can organize details about them as I see them 473 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,919 Speaker 1: come up. I'll put notes related to a particular significant 474 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: incident or theme in the story in its own tab 475 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: so I can keep track of it. But the most important. 476 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 2: Tab is the timeline. 477 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: I started doing this a few years ago when I 478 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 1: was doing a particularly deep dive on an individual that 479 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,320 Speaker 1: I won't be doing an episode about until his story 480 00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: is over, and that might be a while, but it's 481 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: become my go to starting point. I don't know what 482 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: I'm looking for until I find it, So when I 483 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: start building out a story about a guy, I just 484 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 1: throw every detail into a timeline, just a bulleted list 485 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: in chronological order, of every single piece of information that 486 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: I can find about his life, no matter how insignificant. 487 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: Sometimes there's huge gaps in the timeline, just large swaths 488 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: of a man's life where he's just not on paper. 489 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 1: But sometimes a guy has had enough contact with the 490 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: system that you can damn near pen him down day 491 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: by day for most of his adult life. 492 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 2: I comb through. 493 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: Newspaper archives, court records, genealogical records, social media accounts, forum posts, 494 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 1: old blogs, anything and everything that I can get my 495 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:49,239 Speaker 1: hands on. 496 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 2: I won't use most of it. I know that a 497 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 2: lot of. 498 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 1: Us useless, but I need the whole picture in front 499 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 1: of me before anything comes into focus. I collect obituaries, 500 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: of family members, childhood yearbook photos, every parking ticket he's 501 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: ever gotten, things like a guy's mom's lawsuit against her 502 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 1: local McDonald's after she slipped and fell on a wet floor, 503 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: bankruptcy filings, filings in an ex wife's divorced from her 504 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 1: second husband, disciplinary records from the board of nursing bar complaints, 505 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: paperwork filed with the state for a small business, irs 506 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: forms for a nonprofit. He was on the board of 507 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: every donation made to any political candidate by everyone in 508 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 1: his immediate family. Everything, every piece of paper with his 509 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: name on it, from an old newspaper article about Frank 510 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: Sweeney's childhood pet armadillo to Dennis Mayhon's brothers weird letters 511 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: to the editor of their hometown newspaper. It all goes 512 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,000 Speaker 1: on the timeline, and usually by the time I've got 513 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 1: five or ten pages of bullet points, I have a 514 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: much clearer idea of what the story is. And it's 515 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: rarely the story I thought I was writing. Come to 516 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 1: think of it, I don't think I've ever written an 517 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: episode that was even close to what I sat down 518 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: expecting to write. I've gotten a lot of really generous 519 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: offers from you, guys about wanting to help with the research. 520 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 1: I mean, even my producer Sophie has offered several times 521 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: to hire someone to help with the research. 522 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 2: But I don't think it would help. 523 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 1: I don't need someone to run down a particular set 524 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 1: of facts or summarize a book. There isn't a specific 525 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 1: concrete task I could even assign to someone. I mean, 526 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: if I didn't waste half the week chasing down every 527 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 1: loose end or writing page long biographies in my notes 528 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 1: about every tertiary character in the story, I would miss 529 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,719 Speaker 1: a lot of what ends up being important. I mean, 530 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,720 Speaker 1: think about those German mercenaries and the Monica Huggett episodes. 531 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: When I started flushing out the story, I knew those 532 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: Germans got arrested in nineteen ninety four after a shootout 533 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,479 Speaker 1: with the police in South Africa, and that they'd been 534 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 1: staying at Monica's house. And that was probably enough information 535 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 1: for what ended up being a pretty brief moment in 536 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 1: the story I sat down to write. But digging around 537 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: in their lives took me in some incredible and very 538 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: unexpected directions. One of those Germans, Horst Cleans, had been 539 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: involved in a government backed terrorist organization in Namibia. Another 540 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: one of them, Alexander Nydlin, is still involved in writing 541 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: politics in Germany today, and I was able to find 542 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: and embed in the episode audio of him attending a 543 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 1: Nazi rally in Croatia in twenty seventeen. I wasn't looking 544 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 1: for any of that. I couldn't have asked someone else 545 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: to find it. I just had to go on my 546 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: own adventure and collect everything along the way. The most 547 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: important part of the process for me is doing the 548 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 1: research myself, because I don't know what I'm lofing looking for. 549 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,480 Speaker 1: I spend most of the week just sort of browsing, 550 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: casting a wide net and pulling in mostly garbage. But 551 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 1: I have to collect everything and put it in order 552 00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: before the story presents itself to me. I don't know 553 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:21,280 Speaker 1: what the story is until I'm done finding it. I'm 554 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: sure there are better ways of going about this, but 555 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: this is how I have to do it. So if 556 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 1: you were one of the people asking questions about my process, 557 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 1: and you hope the answer would be some kind of 558 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: usable advice, I'm sorry. It really is just a sort 559 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 1: of relentless, aimless rooting around and vibes. 560 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 2: It's mostly vibes. 561 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 1: There were also some questions about what kinds of material 562 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 1: I might recommend to people who are interested in these subjects, books, podcasts, 563 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: other researchers whose work I enjoy. There are a lot 564 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 1: of books on the subject of white nationalism, whit premacy, 565 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: domestic extremism, what have you, and a lot of them 566 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 1: are really bad. The topic got popular in recent years 567 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: and it became marketable, and then a lot of people 568 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 1: with no business writing about it sold books. So you 569 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: can't just pick up any book off the shelf and 570 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 1: expect it to be valuable to you. But if you 571 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:24,280 Speaker 1: want to read a book about the white power movement 572 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: in America, you have to read Kathleen Blue's Bring the 573 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: War Home. It's rare for rigorously researched academic writing to 574 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 1: also be a thrill to read, so you're really doing 575 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: yourself a disservice if you haven't read it. I've read 576 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,040 Speaker 1: it more than once, and I keep my copy on 577 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: the floor next to the chair that I write in. 578 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: There are probably half a dozen episodes where I've picked 579 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: it up and flipped to the index. 580 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:51,320 Speaker 2: And found what I needed. 581 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 1: And if you're really interested in the nitty gritty you 582 00:34:55,960 --> 00:35:01,399 Speaker 1: can't go wrong with Leonard Zeskin's Blood and Politics. It's 583 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: more of an encyclopedia than a beach read, but it's 584 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,720 Speaker 1: probably the most comprehensive text out there on the subject 585 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:12,360 Speaker 1: of American white nationalism. Zeskin was a giant in this space. 586 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 1: He found at the Institute for Research and Education on 587 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 1: Human Rights in nineteen eighty three. He was the US 588 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: correspondent for Searchlight magazine. He was the research director at 589 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 1: the Anti Clan Network, and he was an activist and 590 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,479 Speaker 1: a human rights advocate, and he really shaped the way 591 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: that researchers think and write about the far right in 592 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 1: the United States. I was deeply saddened to hear he'd 593 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 1: passed away just a few days ago. And as long 594 00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,319 Speaker 1: as I'm recommending books, if you missed the interview I 595 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 1: did with Spencer Sunshine a few months back, do give 596 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,399 Speaker 1: it a listen. His book Neo Nazi Terrorism and Countercultural 597 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:53,240 Speaker 1: Fascism is the first real exploration of siege the Nazi 598 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 1: Terrorism Handbook by James Mason. And I can't miss an 599 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:01,080 Speaker 1: opportunity to recommend my dear friend Talia Lavin's books Culture 600 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:05,800 Speaker 1: Warlords and Wild Faith. They both trace the ideological roots 601 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: of different strains of American extremism. As far as podcasts go, 602 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,400 Speaker 1: there are so many podcasts. Everybody has one these days, 603 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: even me, And there are a lot of really good 604 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,320 Speaker 1: ones out there, and so I hope everyone will forgive 605 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,359 Speaker 1: me if I only recommend one. I'm not snubbing everyone else. 606 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: I just can't let myself ramble on about podcasts on 607 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:28,720 Speaker 1: a podcast. 608 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 2: That's just too much. 609 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 1: I like to have a little audio going in my 610 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,399 Speaker 1: headphones when I'm huttering around the house. So I listen 611 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,920 Speaker 1: to a lot of podcasts, but I never miss an 612 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: episode of Knowledge Fight. If you've never listened to it, 613 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,680 Speaker 1: the premise might sound a little off putting. It's one 614 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 1: guy telling another guy about episodes of Info Wars, just 615 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 1: two comedians talking about Alex Jones. It's fun and funny, 616 00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 1: and it's so easy to listen to that you might 617 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 1: not even notice it first that Dan Freesen has painstakingly 618 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 1: researched every single lie that comes out of Jones's mouth, 619 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 1: and he can not only tell you what isn't true, 620 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,279 Speaker 1: he breaks down why it isn't true and how that 621 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: particular lie functions in the right wing narrative. 622 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 2: That's being constructed. 623 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,359 Speaker 1: It's been going on for years at this point, and 624 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 1: he's become probably the world's leading expert on Alex Jones, 625 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,719 Speaker 1: which is probably not a title he aspired to as 626 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:29,280 Speaker 1: a child. 627 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 2: Oh and actually I lied. 628 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: I also have to recommend cool people who did cool stuff. 629 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 1: If you haven't heard Margaret kill Joy's show, imagine the 630 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 1: opposite of weird Little Guys. Aside from the fact that 631 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 1: it's just nice sometimes to hear a story about people 632 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 1: who aren't monsters. 633 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:48,759 Speaker 2: As someone who spends. 634 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 1: Way too much time researching, I know what it sounds 635 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 1: like when someone really digs deep to get the context 636 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,879 Speaker 1: to bring a story to life. And I just love 637 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,839 Speaker 1: Margaret's passion for stories of people who struggle to build 638 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:05,200 Speaker 1: a better world. Okay, let's wrap things up with some 639 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:09,399 Speaker 1: fun ones. You guys are honestly really sweet. A lot 640 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 1: of the questions on the reddit weren't even about researching races. 641 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 1: They were things like what's your favorite flavor of ice cream? 642 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 1: And I'll address that one head on. I like cookies 643 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 1: and cream, but not from the store. You don't like 644 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: to buy store brought cookies and cream. I like to 645 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 1: get plain vanilla ice cream. And add the cookies myself. 646 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,720 Speaker 1: It's just better that way. Plus I have seliac disease, 647 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 1: so it's much cheaper to buy gluten free oreos and 648 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:38,360 Speaker 1: add them to regular ice cream. 649 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 2: There were several. 650 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,080 Speaker 1: Questions about sweet treats. Actually, so I'm gonna let you 651 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 1: in on one of my most important life philosophies. 652 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 2: I call it the little treat. It's very simple. 653 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,560 Speaker 1: If you have an opportunity for a little treat, something 654 00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 1: harmless and affordable that won't take a lot of time 655 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 1: out of your day or a lot of money of 656 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 1: your wallet, and won't inconvenience anyone, you have to have 657 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:09,359 Speaker 1: the little treat. Life is just too hard and overwhelming. 658 00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 1: Just have a little treat sometimes. And little treat can 659 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,320 Speaker 1: be anything. It doesn't have to be a sweet treat. 660 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,000 Speaker 1: It can be putting on a fuzzy sweater right out 661 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,919 Speaker 1: of the dryer, or going around the block just one 662 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 1: more time because the dogs are really enjoying the sunshine. 663 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 1: The important part of little treat philosophy is recognizing in 664 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 1: the moment that you have chosen to enjoy a little treat. 665 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:36,319 Speaker 1: It's the only way to live. 666 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 2: You have to do it. 667 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 1: One of you wrote on the subreddit that a question 668 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 1: you like to ask people is what scared you as 669 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: a kid, and I love that. I bet you get 670 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: a lot of really weird answers to that. I was 671 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 1: never afraid of the monster in the closet. I actually 672 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 1: loved hanging out in my bedroom closet as a kid. 673 00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,400 Speaker 1: I made it into sort of a cozy, private cave 674 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:01,600 Speaker 1: where I liked to read. 675 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:03,920 Speaker 2: But I was. 676 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:11,640 Speaker 1: So, so unbelievably scared of Bloody Mary. Very specifically, I 677 00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:15,200 Speaker 1: was traumatized at a very young age by the version 678 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,200 Speaker 1: of the Bloody Mary story in the children's book Scary 679 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 1: Stories to Tell in the Dark. 680 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 2: I think everyone my age. 681 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,200 Speaker 1: Was traumatized by that book in one way or another. 682 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:28,839 Speaker 1: But I couldn't keep a mirror in my bedroom until 683 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:30,680 Speaker 1: I was in like high school. 684 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:32,920 Speaker 2: I wish I was kidding. 685 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:35,759 Speaker 1: I still don't like to go in the bathroom with 686 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:40,359 Speaker 1: the lights off. I'm thirty five years old, and I 687 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: have shrugged off very real death threats from guys in 688 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:48,000 Speaker 1: very real murder cults, but I am, in fact a 689 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 1: little bit scared of going in the bathroom with the 690 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:55,359 Speaker 1: lights off. I don't know what to tell you, and 691 00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:59,440 Speaker 1: of course several of you asked about my dogs. They 692 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: are the most important employees on the show. I couldn't 693 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:05,200 Speaker 1: do it without them. I have two docs In's brothers, 694 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,799 Speaker 1: named Otto and Buck. They'll be nine this summer, which 695 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,120 Speaker 1: is kind of crazy because they're really just puppies. I 696 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,520 Speaker 1: don't know how they could be puppies for nine years. 697 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:17,520 Speaker 1: I post pictures of them from time to time on 698 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 1: Blue Sky if you'd like to see their sweet little faces. 699 00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 1: There were so many questions I didn't get to. I'm 700 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,880 Speaker 1: sure I'll do another Q and A episode eventually, but 701 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,959 Speaker 1: I am thrilled to be wrapping this up before three am, 702 00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:36,200 Speaker 1: which is something I have not managed to do in months. 703 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,200 Speaker 1: I've got to go see a man about some ponies 704 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,080 Speaker 1: first thing in the morning, and I need to. 705 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:42,360 Speaker 2: Start packing for my honeymoon. 706 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,879 Speaker 1: There will be a regular episode next week, but there'll 707 00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:48,480 Speaker 1: be a couple of reruns after that. 708 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,279 Speaker 2: I am so sorry. 709 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:53,719 Speaker 1: I'm trying to put together a couple of minisodes, like 710 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:57,080 Speaker 1: little bite sized side stories that I'd like to get 711 00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,680 Speaker 1: out while I'm gone. But as I have just revealed 712 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:02,279 Speaker 1: to you over the course of this Q and A, 713 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:05,319 Speaker 1: I have no idea where I'm going or where I'll 714 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,160 Speaker 1: end up, so it's hard to say what I'll end 715 00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:13,840 Speaker 1: up writing. Either way, there are many more Weird Little Guys, 716 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:31,359 Speaker 1: and I will tell you about them eventually. Weird Little 717 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,080 Speaker 1: Guys is a production of Fool Zoe Media and iHeartRadio. 718 00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:37,520 Speaker 1: It's research, written, and recorded by me, Polly Conker. Our 719 00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 1: executive producers are Sophie Litterman and Robert Evans. The show 720 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 1: is edited by the wildly talented Rory Gagan. The theme 721 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,000 Speaker 1: music was composed by Brad Dickert. You can email me 722 00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,400 Speaker 1: at Weird Little Guys Podcast at gmail dot com. I 723 00:42:49,440 --> 00:42:51,920 Speaker 1: will definitely read it, but I probably won't answer it. 724 00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:55,320 Speaker 1: It's nothing personal. You can exchange conspiracy theories about the 725 00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:57,360 Speaker 1: show with other listeners on the Weird Little Guys separated 726 00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,520 Speaker 1: it just don't post anything. It's going to make you 727 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:01,520 Speaker 1: one of my Weird Little guys. 728 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:09,960 Speaker 2: Mhm