WEBVTT - Slums of Beverly Hills with Broey Deschanel 0:00:00.960 --> 0:00:02.080 On the Bechdelcast. 0:00:02.200 --> 0:00:05.640 The questions asked if movies have women and them, are 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:08.399 all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:13.920 have individualism, the patriarchy, zeph and best start changing it 0:00:13.960 --> 0:00:15.160 with the Bechdel. 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:19.360 Cast, Get a Good get Away, Get a good to 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.960 the This is the words, right, I'm trying to speak 0:00:24.000 --> 0:00:26.560 your I'm trying to speak the secret language I know, 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:28.280 but I can't speak it. 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:32.800 It was reminding me of I did you ever watch 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:36.960 Zoom on PBS? No, because it's one of the shows 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:39.760 you could have watched, So I was curious. Zoom was 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:42.640 like this kid's show that actually friend of the show 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:45.400 Taylor Garren was on when I was a child. Sure 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:51.440 where they would speak they would speak pig Latin. Maybe no, wait, 0:00:51.479 --> 0:00:54.520 because I can do that, And also like that sounds weird. 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:57.800 I couldn't understand what they were saying. I really appreciated 0:00:58.000 --> 0:01:02.440 in their secret language that they're subtitles. There were subtitles. 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:05.280 I thought that was like so charming. What is our 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:07.600 what is what is our secret langue? I feel like 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:10.560 our secret language is like trying to get out of 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:14.640 a social situation as a group, but you're usually just 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:15.840 like we should go. 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:17.640 I'm leaving now bye. 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:20.080 Yeah, you're really good at leaving your room. I'll all 0:01:20.080 --> 0:01:22.400 be there three hours longer than necessary. 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:25.520 Thank you so much. I was gonna say our secret 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:28.920 language is maybe a dialect of minionies, but. 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:35.880 Oh my god, yes that is below below below. Oh uh, well, 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:39.039 banana is an English word. I guess there's there's so 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:41.720 there's so many options for us. How do you feel 0:01:41.840 --> 0:01:44.080 about I know we have a lot to talk about today, 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:47.319 but are you do you want to go see Minions 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:50.960 and monsters at midnight? I know that everyone I just 0:01:51.000 --> 0:01:52.640 wanted to. I was going to text you about this 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:56.840 off pod, but everyone did seem upset with me when 0:01:57.200 --> 0:01:59.320 I brought them to just we all fell asleep. A 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:02.480 despicable for at midnight. But I think it's worth a shot. 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:05.600 It was a midnight screening. Yeah, I'm not gonna say 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:09.680 I'm too old for that, but I'm definitely not young 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:10.679 enough for it. 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:14.720 Okay, so you're bowing out, you're bowing out. 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:16.880 I won't say that. Okay, I'm just gonna be a 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:20.800 little wishy washy about committing. At the moment, I'm building 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:21.880 my day around it. 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:24.359 I'm planning the next day so that I can go 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:27.680 to bed and sleep till like elevens I can I 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:32.000 can really like drink a Celsius and see minions and monsters. Sure, 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:34.640 but unfortunately all the minions are men, and that didn't 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:38.440 pass the Bechdel test, which brings us to Welcome to 0:02:38.600 --> 0:02:40.919 the Bechdel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus. 0:02:41.320 --> 0:02:43.440 My name is Caitlin Derante. This is our show where 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:46.800 we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using the 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:50.880 Bechdel test simply as a jumping off point, which is 0:02:51.000 --> 0:02:52.320 what now, Jamie. 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:55.480 Well. The Bechdel test is a media metric created by 0:02:55.600 --> 0:03:00.480 friend of this show Carteonus, Alison Bechdel, originally a one 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:02.560 off joke in her comic dex to Watch out For 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:05.560 in the eighties to draw attention to the fact that 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:09.080 there was never a queer romance between women in movies. 0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:13.160 It has since been adapted into a more generalized media metric. 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:17.360 The version we use requires that two characters of a 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:21.000 marginalized gender with names speak to each other about something 0:03:21.040 --> 0:03:25.520 other than a man for a meaningful exchange of dialogue, 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:30.000 and today's movie really kind of puts this to the test. 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:32.320 In a really interesting way. But there's also just so 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:36.160 much to talk about, because yeah, this is another I 0:03:36.160 --> 0:03:39.640 think the trend of this year, our tenth year. I 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:41.280 don't know what anniversary that is. 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:46.080 Oh, like is it like gold or there's like also 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:47.120 shitty wooden. 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:49.520 Yeah, if you don't last very I think I've only 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:54.120 ever made it to like the paper, the paper, and 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:57.680 like the bad ones. Anyways, for our tenure, we've been 0:03:57.720 --> 0:03:59.880 covering a lot of movies that have been on our 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:03.760 requestless for most of those ten years, that for whatever reason, 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:06.320 we just haven't covered. And today is one of those movies. 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:10.800 It is Slums of Beverly Hills, which was released in 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:15.000 nineteen ninety eight, written and directed by Tamara Jenkins. And 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:18.719 we have an incredible returning guest, one of the best. 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:22.120 I would say, we sure do. She is a YouTuber 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:27.000 and video essayist host of Rehash podcast, and you remember 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:31.120 her from our episode on Forrest Gump. It's Maya aka 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:32.320 Broie da Channel. 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:35.640 Welcome back. Thank you for having me. I didn't I 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:37.440 never thought I'd make it back a second time. Here 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:39.560 I am again. Oh my god, I'm so pleased to 0:04:39.600 --> 0:04:41.520 be here with the both of you. 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:43.719 You're welcome to come back anytime you want. 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:48.120 The honor is all ours, truly. Yes, two wildly different 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:49.640 nineties movies we've covered. 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:52.640 You could not be more different, And I can't stop. 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:54.279 I couldn't stop thinking about in the run up to 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:56.720 those how hilarious it was that this is the movie 0:04:56.720 --> 0:05:00.560 we we're covering on the techdelcast. It is. It is 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:02.960 one of the most complicated movies I've ever seen, so 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:05.120 it'll be fun to dissect. 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:10.599 Yeah. Absolutely, tell us your history, your relationship with this movie. 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:14.039 Yeah. So I watched this movie for the first time 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:18.080 during the pandemic my roommate and my podcast co host, 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:21.440 actually Hannah suggested it and we had this like nightly 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:24.719 ritual of knitting and eating a treat and watching a 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:27.560 movie like almost every night that or six episodes of 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:30.880 Love Island. Of course, this night was this movie, and 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:33.880 I kind of fell in love with it, and I 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:36.800 think on the second watch, I fell a little bit 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:38.400 less in love with it, but I still like it 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:40.080 a lot. I think I just have a lot of 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:43.159 nostalgia for like seventies movies, but I also feel like 0:05:43.200 --> 0:05:47.200 it also occupies this place of like nineties indie fascination 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:51.400 with like pathetic families, like the downwardly mobile imaginary that 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:56.640 I find so fun, kind of like Todd Salon's style filmmaking. 0:05:57.200 --> 0:05:58.640 I think it has this kind of like nineties like 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:01.479 indie absurdity and like Matt or a Fact tone that 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:04.200 I also really like. And every day of my damn life, 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:06.039 I'm trying to look like Marrissa Tome in this movie. 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:09.320 And you know, God, oh, one day maybe we will. 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:13.599 She's hilarious. Yeah, I think I think generally was just 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:16.880 struck by how like morally difficult it is of a movie, 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:18.520 and like that I couldn't really wrap my head around 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:20.719 how I felt about what the characters get up to. 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:24.599 But yeah, yeah, it was on my favorite movies list 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:26.040 for a while and then I kind of like swapped 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:29.360 it out over time. But yeah, I'm a big fan 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:31.640 of this movie even still nice. 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:37.200 Yeah, there's lots to unpack, truly. Yeah, Jamie, what's your 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:38.160 relationship with it? 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:42.000 I had not seen it before. I'd seen another Tomorrow 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:47.279 Jenkins movie. I'd seen Savages before, which I believe was 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:49.440 her next movie in two thousand and seven. Because I 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:54.720 really enjoyed listening to and reading Tomorrow Jenkins interviews and 0:06:54.760 --> 0:06:56.479 getting ready for this. I think she has a lot 0:06:56.480 --> 0:07:01.120 of really necessary stuff to say about how difficult it 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:06.320 is for women to be otur's. But anyways, i'd seen Savages. 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:08.359 I don't remember why. I think it was on IFC 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:11.640 or something when I was in high school and really 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:13.880 enjoyed it. But this has been on my list to 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:19.040 watch forever. And I mean casting wise, it's like made 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:23.000 for me. The cast in this movie. David chrome Holts, 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:24.520 isn't it for crying out loud? 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:27.920 I mean Bernard the Elf himself. 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:31.720 One of my most formative crushes. And Kevin Corgan, which 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:36.720 indicates the kind of choker that I have, Kevin every 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:39.640 I saw a letterbox review for this movie that said 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:43.040 every man in this movie deserves at least a fork 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:47.600 to the leg, and that is definitely true. Yeah, I 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:51.480 really enjoyed this movie. I found it challenging. It's interesting. 0:07:51.560 --> 0:07:54.360 I think, probably because we're in this like ten year 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:57.640 space that I think I would have reacted to this 0:07:57.720 --> 0:08:01.480 movie very differently to it's the beginning of the backdal 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:03.280 cast versus now. 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:04.080 I had the same thought. 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:06.680 Yeah, I think that there's a period in my life 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:09.320 where I would have rejected a lot of what this 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:13.880 movie is discussing, however messily, but I think that there's 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:17.600 a lot of interesting stuff going on. I like it 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:21.120 a lot. There are moments where I think, honestly, the 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:24.960 biggest thing that bumped me in this movie that wasn't 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:27.440 like super specific in a way we'll talk about is 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:31.080 the score in this movie is so funny to me 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:34.439 where there's something that I just want to have a 0:08:34.480 --> 0:08:39.360 word with the composer because there would be a like 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:42.720 a crime that would be presented as like or like 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:45.360 what is on paper a crime would be presented on 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:48.760 screen with I thought like a lot of kind of 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:52.040 nuance and lack of like how was I supposed to 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:55.360 feel about this? And then like accordion music will start 0:08:55.400 --> 0:09:00.360 to play, and I found it so out oft with 0:09:00.760 --> 0:09:04.240 what I thought the director was doing. The music was 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:07.680 so silly to me. The tuba music following the assault 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:11.800 of a minor was really something else, especially when Kevin 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:14.240 Corgan was like I assaulted a minor just now, and 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:17.880 I'm aware of that, and then tuba music starts playing immediately. 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:18.840 It's wild. 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:23.360 It's a generic clusterfug for sure, Like there's like it's 0:09:22.800 --> 0:09:25.679 it's something's happening on screen, and then the movie's kind 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:28.560 of like atmospherically throwing something else at you, and you're. 0:09:28.440 --> 0:09:31.680 Like, it's so yeah, there were so many scenes I 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:33.200 had to be like, I have to take that back. 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:36.880 But like you're saying, Maya, I think it's like it's 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:40.439 a look into both the seventies and the nineties and 0:09:40.679 --> 0:09:42.880 the sensibilities in both of those decades in a very 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:45.240 specific way that I think is going to be interesting 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:47.839 to talk about. Caitlin, what's your history? 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:52.319 I had never seen this movie either. I've known about 0:09:52.360 --> 0:09:54.920 it for a long time, and I was familiar with 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:59.400 what the poster looked like. But I was mistaking Natasha 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:04.439 Leone for Brittany Murphy. So I spent my whole she 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:06.880 does kind of look like her on the poster. Yeah, 0:10:07.160 --> 0:10:10.400 not in the movie, but on the poster. 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:11.679 She looks like Natasha Leone. 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:16.319 Otherwise Yeah, right, she said her most Natasha Leoni for sure? 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:18.160 Yeah, Oh is it Leoni? 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:20.800 Or I don't? Oh no, no, I meant like Leon 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:23.120 and then dash, why Leoni? 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:26.920 I see, I see, I see the flavor, the flavor 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:32.640 of Leoni. So I spent many years thinking that a 0:10:32.679 --> 0:10:35.080 different actor was the star of this movie, and then 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:38.000 I was like, oh, it's Natasha Leone and I was 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:42.640 excited to watch it. And I similarly found it challenging. 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:45.439 Still don't know quite what to make of it. I'm 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:52.200 gonna rely heavily on our conversation to process it, but yeah, 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:55.040 I can't wait to dive into it. 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:58.199 I will say this movie keeps you on your toes 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:03.240 until the very last second, and I think a lot 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:06.120 of that is thematic. But also it's a jump scare. 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:10.079 Rita moreno appearance that no one could have seen come 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:11.640 that I certainly didn't see coming. 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:14.040 Wait, who is it? I missed it. 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:17.079 Rida Morano plays the aunt at the end. 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:20.600 Oh my god, yeah, the end, Yeah, Rida Morano. She's 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:23.440 like the wife of Carl Ryan. Gosh, yeah in the 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:24.880 airport lounge. 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:27.480 Oh my goodness. Yeah, did not catch that? 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:29.439 Oh my god, were you fright? How did you feel 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:31.640 when you saw Rita Morena? Like, what was the feeling 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:33.040 that overcame you, Jimmy. 0:11:33.040 --> 0:11:36.400 Oh, ease, comfort, safety. 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:38.880 It was like a jump, a jump soothe. 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:41.560 Yes, a jump. It wasn't a scare, it was a 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:43.240 sooth yes. 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:46.040 Yeah. Also, Mino Souvari. Mina Souvari is also in. 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:49.320 This as a tiny baby Jessica Walter. 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:52.679 Oh my god, what a cast. And Jessica Walter does 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:55.120 the Lucille blue scream and everything. 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:58.920 Yeah, that's actually how she got her role in Arrest 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:01.360 of Development. I'm just making that. 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:05.000 Up, Yeah, I know. But because when she sees the 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:07.080 blood though, that's a lucile scream. 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:10.400 Yeah, she goes the way that she screams right before 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:16.240 she sees Jeane Parmesan. Yeah, when she's like exactly exactly. 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:18.000 I love the way that the kids are kind of alsome. 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:19.880 Just don't think that she's good enough for the dad 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:21.920 because she's kind of old. Like when she's talking about 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:24.120 metopause and stuff, and I'm like, this dad is a scrub. 0:12:24.160 --> 0:12:26.320 I don't know, I know, it's. 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:27.480 I think she might be too good for him. 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:30.280 Yeah, there's so much going on. Yeah, and then you 0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:33.960 like check the I had to do a quick like 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:37.240 birth date check, and you're like, no, Alan Arkin is 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:42.800 indeed half a decade older than Jessica Walter's. Let's focus up, 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:44.760 let's be serious, let's be real. 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:46.880 Yeah, I do like when she starts pulling the pads, 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:48.800 I'm sorry, we're about to discusses. But when she starts 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:53.080 pulling the pads and they're like archaic, ancient pads. 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:57.920 This movie did something that I kind of forget to 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:02.280 do sometimes, which is empathized with my mother, where I 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:05.079 think my mom would have been around this age at 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:07.600 this time, and you're like, you know she was really 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:08.360 in the trenches. 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:09.440 Oh yeah, Well, the. 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:12.520 Way I understood it is that the reason she has 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:17.280 this very archaic menstrual pad with the belt is because 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:21.240 that's what Jessica Walter's character would have used she when 0:13:21.320 --> 0:13:24.440 she was menstruating. I feel like by the mid to 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:27.840 late seventies when this movie takes place, pads had like 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:31.400 adhesive bottoms that like stick to your underwear the way 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:33.960 they do now. But I think so, but like those 0:13:33.960 --> 0:13:37.480 are just the pads that Jessica Walter had left over. 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:40.560 Yeah, it was like a primitive pad. Yeah, yeah, from 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:45.320 her like from the ancient times of like nineteen fifty. 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:48.440 Yes, yeah, yeah. 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:51.400 Empathize with those older ladies they're going through it. Every 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:53.120 time I see one kind of acting of a public 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:54.720 I don't know if this is misogynistic, but I'm like, 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:57.760 she might be overheating, like let her cooks like she's 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:03.000 probably so misalis it's coming from a place. 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:06.040 Of empty I was like, there's empathy in there. 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:07.280 Yes, it's within. 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:11.840 Yes, Yes, Well, why don't we take a quick break 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:25.680 and we'll come back for the recap and we're back. 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:29.400 Before we dive into the recap, I will provide a 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:34.600 content warning. This movie is mostly a comedy and it's 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:40.200 tonally light generally, but there are moments of sexual assault 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:41.600 and incest. 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:45.040 Yeah, the tube of music doesn't always know where it's dropping. 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:50.920 No, it doesn't. Okay, So it is nineteen seventy six. 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:56.560 We meet Vivian Abramowitz played by Natasha Leone. She is 0:14:56.560 --> 0:14:59.720 about to be a freshman in high school. Her dad, 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:03.400 who is a single father, Murrie played by Alan Arkin, 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:08.400 is taking her shopping for her first ever bra and 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:14.560 the experience is very uncomfortable and humiliating for Vivian. And 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:18.960 this will be a motif and theme throughout. 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:21.760 I do like that the Vivie isn't shy about what 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:26.480 it's about, because it starts with them talking about her 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:29.840 breasts literally behind her back, as if she isn't there, 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:33.120 and that is kind of most of the movie as well. 0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:37.520 Yes, and we are about to see a different pair 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:42.200 of breasts, because what happens next is we cut to 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:46.600 a woman running barefoot along the road at night. We 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:50.480 will eventually learn that this is Rita played by Marisa Tome, 0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:56.120 and we'll find out that she is Marie's niece and 0:15:56.400 --> 0:16:00.440 Vivian's cousin, but we don't know that quite yet. Anyway, 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:03.680 she is trying to hitch a ride to Beverly Hills, 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:08.880 and she flashes her breasts to a truck driver to 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:12.080 get him to stop and give her a ride. So 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:15.600 again the motif is present early on. 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:18.680 I'm assuming that there are a number of I mean, 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:21.880 I know, for Natasha Leo and their body doubles for 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:26.080 reasons that we'll discuss, which is that she's wearing prosthetic 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:28.000 boobs the whole time. I don't know how I feel 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:30.280 about the word breasts. We can talk about it. 0:16:30.280 --> 0:16:33.160 It has always made me feel weird. 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:37.200 They use them exclusively in the movie, too, Like every 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:41.240 time I'm going to say something so much grosser, actually 0:16:41.240 --> 0:16:46.280 I go to say memory gland every time, like your chest, 0:16:46.360 --> 0:16:49.160 the chest is discussed, breast is the word it's used, 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:50.920 and I actually kept putting it in my notes too, 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:53.280 but that's a good flag, right to try and swap 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:53.840 that out. 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:58.000 Or it's like an absence where it's like, oh, she's stacked, 0:16:58.240 --> 0:17:01.560 and it's like just implied is stacked. I'm sure that 0:17:01.640 --> 0:17:04.560 this is period accurate, but it was like breasts, I've 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:09.919 just always associated more with illness than with boobs, and 0:17:09.960 --> 0:17:13.359 breasts feel different to me and I and someone can 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:15.439 write a doctoral thesis about why that is. 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:19.399 But and tits feel different than both of those things 0:17:19.640 --> 0:17:19.879 to me. 0:17:20.080 --> 0:17:23.040 Well, it depends on who's saying it though, right, Yeah. 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:24.840 Context is important and who's around. 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:28.359 It's so context dependent. But yeah, breasts, I feel like 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:31.960 an old creepy man when I say breasts. I don't 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:35.240 like it. But also boobs feels. 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:38.840 Like kind of juvenile boy, Yeah, kind of like boobs. 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:42.360 You know what was well, okay, because this is kind 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:45.800 of the theme of the movie. What word were you 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:49.160 brought up with? Because I think I was just brought 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:50.040 up with boobs. 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:53.879 My mom said breasts constantly. 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:57.960 She was always talking about breasts, my god. 0:17:57.760 --> 0:18:00.760 But I was like, I cannot say that word. To 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:04.200 this day, I still say boobs or tits or titties. 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:08.200 Titties is fun, but boobs is my default. I will 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:09.880 talk about my boobs as my boobs. 0:18:10.119 --> 0:18:12.199 I think my mom said boobies, and I don't like 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:14.640 that either, really really don't like it. 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:17.800 That really sounds like a twelve year old boy. 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:20.160 Yeah, and it was mortifying. 0:18:19.560 --> 0:18:22.600 As a child, like it really is, like I mean. 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:26.320 And then I was also I think that, well, this 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:29.359 is also relevant, and so I'm just gonna survey the 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:32.119 class and you don't need to answer. I did not 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:35.159 grow up with the word vagina. I grew up with 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:43.720 the term peep area, which was which which I'm like, 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:47.760 really like makes my body contract to think of how 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:51.479 long I was like your peep area, of course, like, 0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:54.160 which kind of just felt like something that my mom 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:55.600 kind of made up. 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:57.240 I've never heard that before. 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:01.800 Yeah, I've never I And imagine my surprise when I 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:03.480 learned that this is not a term that. 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:07.560 Is used peat area. My mom was referred to it 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:11.719 as a pummy and I not send shivers on my spine, 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:14.480 but in my head I called it a vagina because 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:16.560 I thought your butt and your vagina were the same thing. 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:23.840 And were you wrong? You know you're wrong. Yeah, Their neighbors, 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:25.000 their neighbors, their. 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:26.360 Friends, their friends. 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:30.560 I don't remember exactly what I called I think I 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:32.000 called it my crotch a lot. 0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:38.640 That's very vague. Yeah, sex education is so important. Listeners 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:40.880 weigh in in the comments. 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:51.119 Yes please anyway. So the point is breasts, boobs, tits, 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:55.560 whatever you want to call them. They feature heavily in the. 0:19:55.480 --> 0:19:58.000 Movie, and they heavily feature mm hmm. 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:03.600 Okay, So we cut back to Vivian. Her dad wakes 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:05.359 her up in the middle of the night and tells 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:09.800 her they're moving like right now, and to gather her 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:11.879 things so that they can high tail it out of 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:14.960 this apartment. It's clear that Murray is trying to skip 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:19.159 out on paying rent. They live in Beverly Hills, but 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:24.280 they are not rich, unlike many people who live in 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:29.760 that neighborhood, or like the associations with Beverly Hills and wealth. 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:35.480 They are lower income, working class. Murray is a struggling 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:40.240 car salesman, but he wants to keep his kids. Vivian, 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:43.960 her younger brother Ricky, and her older brother Ben played 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:48.719 by David Crumholtz keep them in Beverly Hills because of 0:20:48.800 --> 0:20:53.040 the good schools. Now. Before they arrive at their new apartment, 0:20:53.359 --> 0:20:58.640 they go out to Eat Shout out Sizzler. Strong Sizzler 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:02.600 representation in the film, which I wonder if this was 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:07.840 before because I associate Sizzler with like a buffet style restaurant. 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:11.080 This made me want to because because we go to 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:12.960 the Olive Garden together and like we should have a 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:13.640 Sizzler night. 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:16.760 So what is Sizzler as someone who is Is this 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:18.439 like a West coast it changed? 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:20.439 I think it's a West coast I think so. I 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:22.600 never saw it on the East coast. Yeah, me either. 0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:27.240 It is a restaurant where you go in from from 0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:30.920 my recollection because I've been there a few times. Parentheses brag. 0:21:31.880 --> 0:21:35.720 You can opt to like order a steak or a 0:21:35.760 --> 0:21:38.400 slab of meat or something like that, and then with 0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:40.919 that you get the buffet so it's like a salad 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:43.720 bar and soup and all that kind of stuff, or 0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:47.040 you can just do the buffet style without the slab 0:21:47.080 --> 0:21:47.520 of meat. 0:21:47.800 --> 0:21:49.520 I just did a quick fact check and I think 0:21:49.560 --> 0:21:52.560 that that was what it was like in the seventies 0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:55.119 as well, and I think that like with that context, 0:21:55.400 --> 0:21:58.000 I feel like the comp for it today would be 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:01.280 kind of an Olive Garden where where it's I feel 0:22:01.280 --> 0:22:03.840 like it's a signifier for the lower middle class right 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:06.960 where it's like it's not you know, gas station food, 0:22:07.160 --> 0:22:11.760 it's not drive through food. But it also kind of is, right, 0:22:11.840 --> 0:22:17.080 like it's an aspirational venue to be consuming what is 0:22:17.160 --> 0:22:18.919 ultimately kind of cheap food. 0:22:19.359 --> 0:22:24.200 When I was growing up in a working class family, 0:22:24.800 --> 0:22:27.880 to eat it alive garden was to have a fancy, 0:22:28.320 --> 0:22:29.120 exact dinner. 0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:31.239 I mean, but that's how they view Sizzler. That's what 0:22:31.280 --> 0:22:34.080 I mean. It's like for like the lower middle class. 0:22:34.119 --> 0:22:37.160 I think that that like signifier kind of shifts, but yeah, 0:22:37.200 --> 0:22:39.879 like I associate it with like in New England, it 0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:42.080 was like there's this place called like the ninety nine 0:22:43.000 --> 0:22:47.120 or like Old Country Buffet, and yeah, places that were 0:22:47.160 --> 0:22:50.600 like it's a sit down meal, it's nice. You know. 0:22:51.240 --> 0:22:53.680 In Toronto we have a place called Mandarin. It's also 0:22:53.760 --> 0:22:56.520 like it's like a like a buffet, a Chinese restaurant, 0:22:56.680 --> 0:22:58.720 a chain and similar. It's it's kind of like an 0:22:58.760 --> 0:23:01.520 outing for the downwardly mobile. Like you wear your nice clothes, 0:23:01.720 --> 0:23:03.760 you go there and you're like we're at Mandarin tonight, 0:23:04.119 --> 0:23:06.280 like but it's not like outrageously expensive. 0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:09.560 It's like accessible, right, I think of it as because 0:23:09.800 --> 0:23:13.320 I think we're all from like somewhat similar like socioeconomic 0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:17.440 backgrounds of like it's like a report card restaurant or 0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:21.679 a like yeah, your cousin just got baptized kind of restaurant. 0:23:22.560 --> 0:23:23.119 Totally. 0:23:23.600 --> 0:23:29.280 Yeah. So they go to Sizzler, where Vivian is humiliated 0:23:29.400 --> 0:23:33.760 once again because her dad is being racist. Her brother 0:23:33.840 --> 0:23:37.720 Ben is making gross remarks about her appearance and about 0:23:37.840 --> 0:23:41.040 women's bodies in general, and so is her dad, and 0:23:41.080 --> 0:23:43.679 so is her dad. He's, you know, he disapproves of 0:23:43.680 --> 0:23:46.600 what she's wearing. She's wearing this halter top. He tells 0:23:46.600 --> 0:23:49.280 her to put on the bra he just bought her 0:23:49.359 --> 0:23:54.000 because she's like spilling out of her top and says 0:23:54.040 --> 0:23:58.800 all these horrible things about her body. Then Murray calls 0:23:59.040 --> 0:24:03.959 his rich brother Micky to ask for a loan, and 0:24:04.000 --> 0:24:08.359 Mickey is like, I can't. My daughter, Rita escaped from 0:24:08.560 --> 0:24:11.760 a rehab center. And so then we connect the dots 0:24:11.800 --> 0:24:14.680 that this is the Mursa Tome character we saw earlier. 0:24:15.280 --> 0:24:18.920 And Mickey mentions that he would pay someone if they 0:24:19.080 --> 0:24:23.239 knew what to do with Rita, and Murray is like, 0:24:23.840 --> 0:24:28.760 what's that you say? You would pay someone? So Murray 0:24:28.800 --> 0:24:33.800 hatches a plan. He picks Rita up from jail and 0:24:33.880 --> 0:24:37.480 now she's going to be staying with Murray and his kids. 0:24:37.960 --> 0:24:41.679 But they need to show Murray's brother Micky that Rita 0:24:41.840 --> 0:24:45.320 has a plan for her future so that Mickey will 0:24:45.680 --> 0:24:51.680 continue to support her financially and basically support the entire family. 0:24:52.200 --> 0:24:54.720 Yeah, that's definitely. He's never in it just to be 0:24:54.880 --> 0:24:56.200 kind to his niece. 0:24:56.720 --> 0:25:00.159 No, certain, he's a scammer of the nth degree to 0:25:00.200 --> 0:25:02.160 the Instagram, yes for sure. 0:25:03.080 --> 0:25:07.320 And so Rita and Murray decide that she will go 0:25:07.359 --> 0:25:13.280 to school to be like a nurse slash medical assistant. Meanwhile, 0:25:13.720 --> 0:25:19.160 the family has moved into their new apartment in Beverly Hills. There, 0:25:19.320 --> 0:25:23.679 Vivian meets the next door neighbor, this guy Elliott, played 0:25:23.680 --> 0:25:24.640 by Kevin Corrigan. 0:25:25.119 --> 0:25:29.280 I love Kevin Corrigan so much. He's such a nasty 0:25:29.359 --> 0:25:31.879 piece of shit in this movie that which we'll talk about, 0:25:32.000 --> 0:25:35.200 But I just have always smiling my head off when 0:25:35.200 --> 0:25:36.320 I see Kevin Corrigan. 0:25:36.600 --> 0:25:43.359 His characters are usually like despicable but also likable in 0:25:43.920 --> 0:25:46.720 ways I can't entirely explain. I also love his character 0:25:46.800 --> 0:25:50.239 in the show Community. I don't know if anyone remembers his. 0:25:51.400 --> 0:25:56.080 I remember watching reruns of Grounded for life and being 0:25:56.240 --> 0:25:58.920 and because he's the scumbag uncle in that show and 0:25:58.960 --> 0:26:00.600 being like something happening. 0:26:01.119 --> 0:26:04.800 He's so some guy that a girl who's a tween 0:26:04.960 --> 0:26:08.280 would be so into. 0:26:07.440 --> 0:26:12.360 Yes, and he takes advantage of that from every way 0:26:12.400 --> 0:26:16.840 you could possibly imagine. But I just I love Kevin Corgan. Okay, yeah, 0:26:16.880 --> 0:26:20.040 that was not a feminist observation. We can continue. 0:26:20.840 --> 0:26:24.640 It's quite all right. We contain multitudes. Yeah, so anyway, 0:26:24.640 --> 0:26:30.000 this is Elliott. He is a weed dealer. He's I guess, 0:26:30.040 --> 0:26:34.320 like kind of an anarchist type. He loves Charles Mayers. 0:26:35.520 --> 0:26:40.000 He's a poser though. He's such a poser. So they're 0:26:40.040 --> 0:26:44.399 hanging out. Vivian is still trying to figure out what 0:26:44.560 --> 0:26:49.320 it is to have breasts, and she asks him if 0:26:49.359 --> 0:26:53.680 he wants to touch hers, and he really really does, 0:26:54.440 --> 0:26:58.199 so he touches them. They have a moment in the 0:26:58.280 --> 0:27:01.920 laundry room, and then she's like, Okay, get away, this 0:27:02.000 --> 0:27:05.320 is a building thing. We're containing this to the building 0:27:05.440 --> 0:27:05.880 kind of thing. 0:27:06.119 --> 0:27:09.359 I have a question, Jin, because I was not I 0:27:09.440 --> 0:27:13.480 was seeing different answers and very vague answers. Maybe intentionally. 0:27:13.560 --> 0:27:17.560 So we know that Vivian is about to start high school. 0:27:17.760 --> 0:27:20.480 I've seen her characterize as either fourteen or fifteen. We 0:27:20.560 --> 0:27:23.080 know that she is firmly a minor, it's stated in 0:27:23.119 --> 0:27:26.639 the movie. Do we know how old Kevin Corrigan is 0:27:26.680 --> 0:27:30.640 supposed to be? I know that he's an adult, but like. 0:27:31.840 --> 0:27:36.560 I think it's twenty But I could be wrong because 0:27:36.560 --> 0:27:39.000 like the actor is like thirty. 0:27:39.240 --> 0:27:41.800 But I didn't know how old he was supposed to be. 0:27:42.280 --> 0:27:45.040 Okay, Wikipedia is telling me twenty something. 0:27:45.359 --> 0:27:47.600 Yeah, that was what I was seeing, and so you're like, Okay, 0:27:47.640 --> 0:27:50.600 it doesn't make a difference in terms of the power dynamic, 0:27:51.200 --> 0:27:56.000 but I was having a difficult time tracking how old 0:27:56.080 --> 0:27:58.040 everyone was supposed to be throughout. 0:27:58.280 --> 0:28:02.280 Yeah, they never make it explicitly clear in the movie. 0:28:02.200 --> 0:28:04.960 Except for Vivian, right, Vivian. I feel like it is 0:28:05.000 --> 0:28:07.680 the only character in the movie that we definitively know 0:28:07.720 --> 0:28:08.640 how old she is. 0:28:08.680 --> 0:28:11.640 Which, oh oh, and Murray is sixty five. 0:28:11.840 --> 0:28:13.959 And that Rita is twenty nine. We only know how 0:28:14.000 --> 0:28:16.840 old women are because that's the only age metric that 0:28:16.920 --> 0:28:19.679 is actually relevant in this world. 0:28:19.920 --> 0:28:22.480 Yeah, well, yeah, we know, I mean Murray A lot 0:28:22.520 --> 0:28:25.680 is made of Murray's age of sixty five. 0:28:25.760 --> 0:28:27.040 Yeah, sure he's over the hill. 0:28:27.280 --> 0:28:28.040 But yeah, it's. 0:28:27.880 --> 0:28:32.360 Mostly women and girls, but yeah, okay, So we get 0:28:32.359 --> 0:28:39.560 the scene where Elliott touches Vivian's breasts in the laundry room, 0:28:39.960 --> 0:28:42.680 and then there are once again more boobs in the 0:28:42.720 --> 0:28:48.120 scene directly following that, because Vivian walks in on Rita 0:28:48.240 --> 0:28:53.000 taking a shower, and we get this shot of Rita's 0:28:53.280 --> 0:28:57.560 boobs again, and then the two cousins start to reconnect. 0:28:58.400 --> 0:29:01.360 We learn about their secret language that I was attempting 0:29:01.400 --> 0:29:04.200 to do at the top of the episode, which they 0:29:04.240 --> 0:29:08.760 did when they were younger. And the thing about Rita 0:29:09.440 --> 0:29:14.280 being there now is that she offers this feminine presence 0:29:14.560 --> 0:29:18.360 in Vivian's life that she was lacking before, and it's 0:29:18.360 --> 0:29:21.880 a nice change of pace from her constantly being around 0:29:21.960 --> 0:29:25.840 only her dad and brothers. And with all the money 0:29:25.840 --> 0:29:30.840 that Mickey, Rita's dad is giving the family, the family 0:29:30.960 --> 0:29:35.640 moves again, this time into a luxury building across the 0:29:35.680 --> 0:29:39.880 street with better amenities, more space, a swimming pool, etc. 0:29:41.280 --> 0:29:43.520 And the family talks about what this means for them 0:29:43.640 --> 0:29:47.440 class wise. They're like, are we rich? Are we middle class? 0:29:48.720 --> 0:29:51.600 You know? They talk about Mickey being a business owner 0:29:51.680 --> 0:29:54.960 and that's how he has amassed wealth. And then Murray 0:29:54.960 --> 0:29:59.080 tells a story slash. We get a flashback from when 0:29:59.200 --> 0:30:03.280 he was a business owner. He owned a restaurant where 0:30:03.320 --> 0:30:07.479 they served these expensive steaks, and he suspected that one 0:30:07.520 --> 0:30:12.640 of his employees was stealing steaks and smuggling them out 0:30:12.640 --> 0:30:16.880 in his pants. So Murray stabbed the guy in the 0:30:16.920 --> 0:30:21.560 thigh with a fork to confirm his suspicions that there 0:30:21.680 --> 0:30:25.040 was a steak in his pants. And this is going 0:30:25.120 --> 0:30:29.920 to be Chekhov's stab in the thigh with a fork. 0:30:30.680 --> 0:30:31.720 Yeah, that calls. 0:30:34.360 --> 0:30:38.600 Then there's a scene where Vivian and Rita are hanging 0:30:38.640 --> 0:30:42.600 out where Rita is unpacking her stuff and she pulls 0:30:42.640 --> 0:30:46.920 out a vibrator. Vivian has never seen one before, so 0:30:46.960 --> 0:30:50.000 they start kind of goofing around with it and tossing 0:30:50.040 --> 0:30:54.560 it around and dancing, and then Murray walks in and 0:30:54.800 --> 0:30:57.520 Vivian doesn't know how to turn it off. So it's 0:30:57.560 --> 0:31:01.360 another humiliating moment that her father's involved in. 0:31:01.480 --> 0:31:04.959 Which is kind of thrilling to know that that particular 0:31:05.160 --> 0:31:11.480 area of vibrator technology has made stunningly little progress in 0:31:11.880 --> 0:31:15.840 the ensuing half century since this movie is set where 0:31:15.840 --> 0:31:18.880 you're like, yes, yeah, it is still kind of difficult 0:31:18.880 --> 0:31:23.760 to just turn one off and they're loud. There's like 0:31:24.000 --> 0:31:26.840 this and like laser jet printers, Like how have we 0:31:26.960 --> 0:31:31.200 not made more progress in these areas? But the scene 0:31:31.280 --> 0:31:34.160 was so we'll talk about it, but it was. The 0:31:34.200 --> 0:31:38.160 scene is such a puzzle to me because I find 0:31:38.200 --> 0:31:42.440 it cathartic and fun and silly in one reading of it, 0:31:42.920 --> 0:31:47.400 and then very bizarre, like it's so long, they're dancing 0:31:48.080 --> 0:31:50.760 for so long, and the joy. 0:31:50.600 --> 0:31:54.400 Is centered around a big vibrating Yes. 0:31:54.200 --> 0:31:58.560 It's so weird and that Alan arkin Is there's like 0:31:58.680 --> 0:32:01.080 I think that honestly, like one of my biggest things 0:32:01.120 --> 0:32:04.800 with this movie that I felt like, and I say 0:32:04.800 --> 0:32:08.960 this lovingly, like sometimes characters behave like cartoons and other 0:32:09.040 --> 0:32:13.400 times they don't. And this was definitely more of a 0:32:13.440 --> 0:32:17.840 Looney Tune scene where you're like Alan Arkins just standing 0:32:17.880 --> 0:32:21.360 there for like twenty seconds wordlessly. 0:32:21.600 --> 0:32:22.960 He has basically no reaction. 0:32:23.400 --> 0:32:25.920 Yeah, because that that is like a I don't know, 0:32:25.960 --> 0:32:28.960 it's like it's more of a ViBe's scene, that. 0:32:29.120 --> 0:32:30.920 Vibes rader. 0:32:32.400 --> 0:32:38.000 Scene that ends in like a protracted Looney Tunes humiliation. 0:32:38.400 --> 0:32:40.600 It's like it's such a weird little scene. 0:32:41.040 --> 0:32:43.880 It does kind of feel like, oh my god. Not 0:32:44.080 --> 0:32:47.400 to make this comparison on like a qualitative basis, but 0:32:47.520 --> 0:32:50.240 like it does feel like when Sam Levinson does these 0:32:50.280 --> 0:32:54.120 really indulgent musical breaks, like like musical montage breaks and 0:32:54.160 --> 0:32:59.280 euphoria inter a character just like dancing. She's so confused 0:32:59.320 --> 0:33:03.320 and she's in this like wood paneled basement and there's 0:33:03.400 --> 0:33:04.760 music and it goes on for so long because he 0:33:04.840 --> 0:33:06.880 just didn't know what else to do with the time. 0:33:06.680 --> 0:33:09.800 That he had. So but this is like like, yeah, but. 0:33:09.800 --> 0:33:11.880 This kind of feels like a dead art almost of 0:33:11.920 --> 0:33:15.400 like the joyful musical break where they're like, the audience 0:33:15.440 --> 0:33:18.040 needs a bit of levity. Let's just throw this in here. 0:33:18.640 --> 0:33:19.480 And I don't know how. 0:33:20.680 --> 0:33:22.920 Yeah, yeah, how do you guys? How do you like that? 0:33:23.400 --> 0:33:26.280 I mean, it's like there is a world where I 0:33:26.320 --> 0:33:29.920 would buy into this scene like no one's business. But 0:33:30.080 --> 0:33:32.640 it's like because at this point in the movie, and 0:33:32.760 --> 0:33:36.360 arguably kind of threw out the movie, the relationship between 0:33:36.600 --> 0:33:41.719 viv and Rita is so kind of vague and then 0:33:41.760 --> 0:33:44.959 all of a sudden, very intense and then over that 0:33:45.120 --> 0:33:48.040 it's like it feels like this, like this scene almost 0:33:48.040 --> 0:33:52.160 feels like a climactic like, yes, we're hanging out, we 0:33:52.200 --> 0:33:56.560 have a vibrator. This is so fun, question mark. I 0:33:56.560 --> 0:33:59.320 don't know. So there were certain sequences where I was like, 0:33:59.440 --> 0:34:02.520 where is at where is her head at? Yeah, in 0:34:02.560 --> 0:34:03.680 this moment, and it. 0:34:03.600 --> 0:34:05.560 Felt like another instance of kind of and I will 0:34:05.560 --> 0:34:09.120 talk about this, I'm sure, but teaching womanhood and like 0:34:09.200 --> 0:34:13.160 learning womanhood and rita kind of like bestowing these elements 0:34:13.200 --> 0:34:17.640 of like female sexuality onto her like newly quote unquote 0:34:17.680 --> 0:34:21.600 sexual like teenage younger cousin. And I guess I kind 0:34:21.600 --> 0:34:23.600 of read it like that, like as a triumphant like 0:34:24.080 --> 0:34:27.120 here's another thing you'll just learned, you know. But then 0:34:27.120 --> 0:34:29.240 they're being goofy with it, so it's and they're all actually, 0:34:29.560 --> 0:34:31.520 thank God using it. So you're kind of like, I 0:34:31.520 --> 0:34:33.919 don't know, Yeah, it's it's all it's a confusing scene. 0:34:33.960 --> 0:34:35.760 It's confusing. Yeah, it's just kind of there. 0:34:36.280 --> 0:34:40.840 Well, I also think that we're conditioned to expect the 0:34:40.920 --> 0:34:44.359 moment that the dad walks in and oh no, she 0:34:44.400 --> 0:34:47.759 can't turn off the vibrator, and it's humiliating that he's 0:34:47.840 --> 0:34:53.800 gonna like have an outburst where he's shaming both Vivian 0:34:54.120 --> 0:34:59.000 and maybe Rita for having such a device and shaming 0:34:59.440 --> 0:35:04.080 them for having sexuality and sexual desire and things like that. 0:35:04.680 --> 0:35:07.520 But if that reaction has had, we don't see it 0:35:07.560 --> 0:35:08.080 on screen. 0:35:08.320 --> 0:35:11.080 No, he just looks like he's buffering there. 0:35:12.320 --> 0:35:14.600 I think, like what I read at the dad throughout 0:35:14.600 --> 0:35:19.719 the movie much to discuss, Yeah, but was that. I 0:35:19.760 --> 0:35:21.600 think as the movie goes on, he kind of starts 0:35:21.600 --> 0:35:24.680 out kind of like on Viv's ass about everything, and 0:35:24.719 --> 0:35:28.279 then I think the more he kind of spirals out 0:35:28.280 --> 0:35:31.120 of control and the more he seems kind of exhausted. 0:35:31.200 --> 0:35:33.120 Midway through when I think he just gets distracted and 0:35:33.120 --> 0:35:35.680 almost stops being a father, because at the beginning you 0:35:35.680 --> 0:35:37.360 can kind of see this attempt at being like a 0:35:37.400 --> 0:35:39.480 single dad where he's like awkwardly trying to kind of 0:35:39.480 --> 0:35:41.960 like talk to his daughter but like really badly about 0:35:42.560 --> 0:35:44.520 what it means to be a woman, et cetera. But 0:35:44.560 --> 0:35:46.759 then as the movie goes on, that relationship just kind 0:35:46.760 --> 0:35:48.560 of dissipates a little bit, and it seems to me 0:35:48.640 --> 0:35:52.800 like maybe the correlation between his like struggles personal struggles 0:35:52.800 --> 0:35:54.200 and being a dad. 0:35:54.239 --> 0:35:57.920 I guess, yeah, maybe he also thinks that when Rita 0:35:58.120 --> 0:36:01.239 shows up, he's like, oh, well, I'm kind of off 0:36:01.239 --> 0:36:05.560 the hook of having to like definitely teach teach my 0:36:05.640 --> 0:36:06.480 daughter anything. 0:36:07.000 --> 0:36:10.479 I felt like that and this wasn't like super clear 0:36:10.480 --> 0:36:12.520 to me on my first viewing, but I'm on my 0:36:12.719 --> 0:36:15.960 second That is like one of the I think kind 0:36:15.960 --> 0:36:19.400 of very loaded, trickier through lines in this movie. Is 0:36:19.440 --> 0:36:22.759 it does seem like that, yeah, that the dad is 0:36:22.800 --> 0:36:28.239 looking for someone to offload having kids, but also very 0:36:28.280 --> 0:36:32.200 specifically having a daughter onto. He tries that with Rita, 0:36:32.840 --> 0:36:36.120 and Rita is a mess. It doesn't work. He tries 0:36:36.160 --> 0:36:41.120 that with Lucille, it's a mess. Doris, Yeah, but also 0:36:41.320 --> 0:36:44.560 come up, but also Lucille Blue, Yes, she tries. He 0:36:44.640 --> 0:36:47.200 tries that with Doris, it doesn't work. And then the 0:36:47.360 --> 0:36:49.640 end that we'll and we'll talk more about it. But 0:36:49.680 --> 0:36:53.799 at the end it seems almost like viv resigns herself 0:36:54.280 --> 0:36:56.640 in a way that's like framed pretty positively that she's 0:36:56.680 --> 0:37:00.400 just going to raise herself and that is okay, and 0:37:00.760 --> 0:37:03.239 it's an interesting way to And I'm really excited to 0:37:03.239 --> 0:37:05.000 talk about the ending of the movie because I think 0:37:05.239 --> 0:37:07.759 there's so many ways to look at it all of 0:37:07.800 --> 0:37:10.799 which I find quite depressing. But maybe you're supposed to 0:37:10.880 --> 0:37:11.279 I don't know. 0:37:12.040 --> 0:37:14.759 Oh yeah, I can't wait to talk more about all 0:37:14.840 --> 0:37:15.279 of that. 0:37:15.719 --> 0:37:17.359 I must just say on this san yes. 0:37:18.600 --> 0:37:21.520 But in the meantime we power on through the recap. 0:37:22.520 --> 0:37:26.360 So the next thing that happens, speaking of Doris, Murray 0:37:26.440 --> 0:37:30.040 takes his family to dinner with her. This is a 0:37:30.080 --> 0:37:33.000 woman he met when he sold her a car. She 0:37:33.160 --> 0:37:37.719 also lives in a fancy building in Beverly Hills. It 0:37:37.840 --> 0:37:42.040 seems like he and Doris are kind of dating, but 0:37:42.120 --> 0:37:45.359 she makes it clear that she only wants a companion. 0:37:45.640 --> 0:37:47.520 She does not want to be touched. She does not 0:37:47.640 --> 0:37:50.760 want to have sex anything like that, and that's something 0:37:50.760 --> 0:37:55.400 that Murray is struggling with. They're at dinner, Vivian gets 0:37:55.400 --> 0:37:59.280 her period and has to sneak off to the bathroom. 0:37:59.320 --> 0:38:01.759 This is the scene we're talking about where Doris gives 0:38:01.760 --> 0:38:06.200 her this old timey pad and then Doris discovers blood 0:38:06.320 --> 0:38:11.640 on her chair, which she had like crosstitched the the upholstery. 0:38:12.120 --> 0:38:16.640 Oh, and she says, oh, Jeane, she goes, And the 0:38:16.719 --> 0:38:19.680 way older women are characterized in this movie we could 0:38:19.719 --> 0:38:22.520 talk about as well. But I was delighted to hear 0:38:22.640 --> 0:38:25.680 Jessica Walters scream regardless of context. 0:38:27.000 --> 0:38:33.279 She's like, there's blood up my chair. So they leave 0:38:33.400 --> 0:38:38.799 Doris's place. Then Rita reveals to Vivian that she is 0:38:39.239 --> 0:38:44.040 pregnant from a guy she met in rehab. He does 0:38:44.080 --> 0:38:49.080 not know this. She is freaking out because she's about 0:38:49.080 --> 0:38:51.920 to start her nursing program and she has to give 0:38:51.920 --> 0:38:55.080 a urine sample. But if the school tests her urine, 0:38:55.120 --> 0:38:57.960 they'll know that she's pregnant and that could jeopardize her 0:38:58.000 --> 0:39:02.400 future in this training program. So she has Vivian p 0:39:02.960 --> 0:39:04.799 in a cup for her. 0:39:05.120 --> 0:39:06.680 It's a very older cousin behavior. 0:39:06.760 --> 0:39:11.960 Yes, like this is some hijinks, some fun hijinks. 0:39:12.200 --> 0:39:12.919 Yeah. 0:39:13.239 --> 0:39:17.479 And so when Vivian is doing this and looking for 0:39:17.719 --> 0:39:22.520 a roll of toilet paper, she finds Rita's vibrator and 0:39:23.000 --> 0:39:27.040 uses it to masturbate. And I feel like it's implied 0:39:27.080 --> 0:39:30.160 that she is masturbating for the first time at least 0:39:30.400 --> 0:39:35.000 with a vibrator, and she loves it. She has the 0:39:35.040 --> 0:39:41.440 best time. Then there's a scene where Vivian meets a 0:39:41.480 --> 0:39:45.040 girl in her building. This is the Mina Suvari character 0:39:46.120 --> 0:39:49.760 who has just gotten a nose job, and she gives 0:39:49.840 --> 0:39:53.960 Vivian the business card of her cosmetic surgeon and mentions 0:39:54.040 --> 0:39:58.560 that the surgeon also gave her mother a breast reduction and. 0:39:59.680 --> 0:40:03.040 Stay, it's that And again this is where the movie 0:40:03.080 --> 0:40:07.880 feels both seventies and nineties and its sensibilities, and also 0:40:08.000 --> 0:40:12.319 twenty twenties, where she's basically like, big tits are out, 0:40:12.440 --> 0:40:18.160 big tits are considered trashy and out of style, and 0:40:18.840 --> 0:40:22.719 I don't know, it's just a very depressing circle is 0:40:22.760 --> 0:40:24.680 presented in this scene. 0:40:24.760 --> 0:40:25.440 Yet for sure. 0:40:25.840 --> 0:40:31.799 And so Vivian hears about this breast reduction surgery and 0:40:31.840 --> 0:40:36.840 she's like, hmm, that is very interesting, and so that'll 0:40:36.840 --> 0:40:41.840 come back later. Then Vivian takes Rita to her first 0:40:41.920 --> 0:40:46.080 day of nursing school via Elliott giving them a ride, 0:40:46.200 --> 0:40:48.719 but first Rita wants to pay a visit to the 0:40:48.760 --> 0:40:52.520 man who got her pregnant, this guy Danny, but he's 0:40:52.520 --> 0:40:55.480 not home, and then when she finally does get a 0:40:55.480 --> 0:40:58.399 hold of him on the phone, he finds out she's 0:40:58.440 --> 0:41:03.440 pregnant and it seems like he will completely bail on 0:41:04.000 --> 0:41:09.160 her forever. Meanwhile, Elliott is teaching Vivian how to drive 0:41:10.520 --> 0:41:14.680 and they end up having sex in his car and 0:41:14.719 --> 0:41:19.040 we'll talk all about this scene. But basically, he's upset 0:41:19.120 --> 0:41:23.440 when he realizes that she has never had sex before 0:41:23.520 --> 0:41:26.000 and that he was the one to quote unquote take 0:41:26.040 --> 0:41:26.920 her virginity. 0:41:27.040 --> 0:41:28.479 Yeah, he is the victim here. 0:41:29.280 --> 0:41:33.719 Yes, the sure acts like it. Then they go to 0:41:33.760 --> 0:41:36.960 pick up Rita, but she's not at the school, so 0:41:37.000 --> 0:41:42.640 they rush home and find her unconscious and unresponsive, and 0:41:42.760 --> 0:41:47.799 chaos ensues. When Murray is shouting and insisting that she 0:41:47.920 --> 0:41:50.719 just needs a cup of coffee. Doris is freaking out. 0:41:51.239 --> 0:41:53.920 Ricky has called the paramedics and they come bursting in 0:41:53.960 --> 0:41:57.719 the room. Mickey calls Murray on the phone, saying that 0:41:57.760 --> 0:42:00.359 he will be flying to La the following day. 0:42:00.840 --> 0:42:06.520 This scene is tonally nuts. This scene is so like 0:42:07.280 --> 0:42:13.680 every possible emotional interpretation of this scene is presented. David 0:42:13.719 --> 0:42:17.160 Crumbholds gets into guys and dolls in the middle of it, 0:42:17.239 --> 0:42:21.720 Like it's just like every tone is happening in this scene. 0:42:22.120 --> 0:42:24.160 True. Yeah, it's only like the havoc of this like 0:42:24.200 --> 0:42:27.680 claustrophobic family life. Yeah, you're like you're really like, oh 0:42:27.719 --> 0:42:30.920 you're done. Yeah, it's nuts, You're done with these folks. 0:42:30.960 --> 0:42:33.600 It's yeah, truly it's wild. 0:42:34.400 --> 0:42:38.560 And then the medics revive Rita, and a little later, 0:42:38.960 --> 0:42:44.600 as she's recovering, she and Murray are kind of consoling 0:42:44.640 --> 0:42:52.720 each other and he gropes her chest, which Vivian, sorry, 0:42:52.800 --> 0:42:56.320 there's a loud machine happening now right outside my window 0:42:56.719 --> 0:42:57.200 the way, and. 0:42:57.600 --> 0:43:00.520 Looked was that someone was like, don't say gropes chests, 0:43:01.600 --> 0:43:03.560 yelling at you off camera like you were. 0:43:03.480 --> 0:43:04.360 Kind of shy. 0:43:05.920 --> 0:43:10.160 Okay, So he assaults her, which Vivian sees through a 0:43:10.160 --> 0:43:12.520 crack in the door, and of course we will talk 0:43:12.560 --> 0:43:17.440 about this as well. We cut to Vivian at the 0:43:17.760 --> 0:43:22.640 cosmetic surgeon, who the girl in her building had recommended. 0:43:23.400 --> 0:43:27.520 Vivian resents her breasts and wants to get breast reduction surgery, 0:43:28.600 --> 0:43:31.440 but then she chickens out and runs out of the 0:43:31.480 --> 0:43:38.240 doctor's office. Meanwhile, Mickey has arrived. He's played by Carl Reiner. 0:43:39.440 --> 0:43:42.719 He and his wife, who I just learned at the 0:43:42.719 --> 0:43:46.480 top of this episode is played by Rita Moreno are 0:43:46.600 --> 0:43:49.600 at a diner with the rest of the family, and 0:43:49.719 --> 0:43:52.520 Rita is about to make this big entrance to surprise 0:43:52.560 --> 0:43:54.600 her dad in her nurse's uniform. 0:43:55.000 --> 0:43:57.640 I think they're actually still at the airport. Oh, because 0:43:57.800 --> 0:44:00.440 I think they're like, they're like musch meet up at 0:44:00.480 --> 0:44:02.759 the airport. We're not gonna. I don't wanna. I have 0:44:03.200 --> 0:44:03.880 nothing to do with you. 0:44:04.360 --> 0:44:05.040 This family. 0:44:05.280 --> 0:44:09.000 Yeah, they're like airplanes in the background. I think the windows. 0:44:09.239 --> 0:44:09.799 I could be wrong. 0:44:10.080 --> 0:44:11.640 No, I think you're right. They don't go to a 0:44:11.640 --> 0:44:15.879 second location because they Yeah, when this scene ends, as 0:44:15.920 --> 0:44:17.759 we're about to fight out, they are leaving, like on 0:44:17.840 --> 0:44:18.560 the tarmac. 0:44:18.719 --> 0:44:23.640 Yeah right, yes, okay. So so Rita is about to 0:44:23.640 --> 0:44:27.239 make this big entrance in her uniform, but she's in 0:44:27.280 --> 0:44:32.120 the bathroom freaking out. Vivian comes in and confronts Rita 0:44:32.320 --> 0:44:37.920 about what happened the night before between her and Vivian's dad, 0:44:38.280 --> 0:44:43.719 and Vivian is furious at Rita again. We'll talk about 0:44:44.360 --> 0:44:49.319 how her anger is misplaced, but they eventually reconcile and 0:44:49.360 --> 0:44:52.160 they go back out to the table. It's a tense 0:44:52.480 --> 0:44:57.560 meal at the airport diner, and then Murray offers to pay. 0:44:58.040 --> 0:44:59.800 He wants to look good in front of his kids, 0:45:00.440 --> 0:45:03.439 but Mickey is like, what difference does it make. It's 0:45:03.520 --> 0:45:08.040 my money. You never learned how to handle your finances 0:45:08.200 --> 0:45:11.000 or budget or anything like that. I've been paying for you, 0:45:11.120 --> 0:45:15.680 for your whole life, and you're sixty five, so grow up. 0:45:16.360 --> 0:45:22.120 And Murray is humiliated, so Vivian stabs her uncle Micky 0:45:22.280 --> 0:45:25.719 in the thigh with a fork, a callback to the 0:45:25.760 --> 0:45:31.080 story that Murray told earlier. So Mickey is like, fuck this, 0:45:32.560 --> 0:45:35.960 and he and his wife and Rita leave and head 0:45:36.000 --> 0:45:39.879 back to the East Coast. Mickey cuts off Murray financially, 0:45:40.920 --> 0:45:45.480 So now Murray and Vivian and her brothers have to 0:45:45.520 --> 0:45:49.319 move out of that expensive building and back into the 0:45:49.400 --> 0:45:54.839 slums of Beverly Hills. But this time Vivian feels less 0:45:54.920 --> 0:46:01.000 humiliation and a greater appreciation and fondness for her family 0:46:01.440 --> 0:46:02.400 and their situation. 0:46:03.400 --> 0:46:09.440 The end. I loved the incorporation of the title Wow, 0:46:09.640 --> 0:46:11.080 thank you, thank you so much. 0:46:11.080 --> 0:46:12.360 Approach a press. 0:46:12.960 --> 0:46:16.080 So let's take another quick break and we'll come back 0:46:16.239 --> 0:46:29.080 for the discussion and we're back. 0:46:29.680 --> 0:46:32.719 Where to start here, my let's stuck out to you. 0:46:32.840 --> 0:46:36.560 Where would you like to start? Guests? Privileged, guest burden. 0:46:37.120 --> 0:46:39.600 Well, I broke my thoughts up into themes, so I 0:46:39.600 --> 0:46:42.960 guess I'll just begin with the first thing theme that 0:46:43.080 --> 0:46:47.680 really sticks out, but kind of the concept of sexual agency. Yeah, 0:46:47.719 --> 0:46:50.719 so this movie really reminds me of another movie that's 0:46:50.719 --> 0:46:53.120 set in the seventies, another movie directed by a woman. 0:46:54.120 --> 0:46:56.080 Do you guys know Diary of a Teenage Girl? 0:46:56.440 --> 0:46:57.920 Yes, yeah, I know of it. 0:46:57.920 --> 0:46:58.719 I've never seen it. 0:46:58.920 --> 0:47:00.799 Oh, that would be a good to talk about it 0:47:00.800 --> 0:47:04.480 on sectual cast. Actually, so yeah. It's this twenty fifteen 0:47:04.520 --> 0:47:07.640 movie by maryel Heller, and it basically is depicting I 0:47:07.640 --> 0:47:10.400 find it's similar because it's depicting kind of like a 0:47:10.440 --> 0:47:13.640 sexual revolution of the sixties and seventies and the way 0:47:13.640 --> 0:47:16.080 that that kind of tipped over into like sexual exploitation 0:47:16.239 --> 0:47:19.319 of women very much paralleling like the time that it 0:47:19.360 --> 0:47:20.759 came out, and in twenty fifteen it was like the 0:47:20.800 --> 0:47:23.040 SlutWalk era and stuff going on. 0:47:23.120 --> 0:47:23.359 Then. 0:47:23.960 --> 0:47:26.520 I feel like both of these movies are capturing this 0:47:26.640 --> 0:47:29.520 kind of like post sexual revolution eras that were like 0:47:30.160 --> 0:47:33.319 hyper sexual and like sexually permissive but like sometimes at 0:47:33.320 --> 0:47:35.879 the expense of women. And Diary of a Teenage Girls 0:47:35.880 --> 0:47:38.480 about like a fifteen year old girl similarly who has 0:47:38.520 --> 0:47:42.959 a statutory affair with her mother's boyfriend and it also 0:47:43.000 --> 0:47:44.840 leaves you very uneasy, but it's more of a drama 0:47:44.880 --> 0:47:47.080 and this is more of a comedy. But I think 0:47:47.440 --> 0:47:49.640 the major scene like I was pulling out was just 0:47:49.640 --> 0:47:52.560 like the idea of a teenage girl grappling with her 0:47:52.600 --> 0:47:55.399 own sexual agency and like the constant push and pull 0:47:55.400 --> 0:47:57.920 of navigating, like how much agency you actually have in 0:47:57.960 --> 0:48:00.759 a world that sees you as prey. Yeah, I was 0:48:00.800 --> 0:48:02.400 thinking a lot about how Viv doesn't have any like 0:48:02.440 --> 0:48:04.520 positive role models. She kind of has to learn things 0:48:04.520 --> 0:48:06.759 on her own. But yeah, I don't know. The movie 0:48:06.800 --> 0:48:08.520 had me thinking a lot about the ways that, like 0:48:08.760 --> 0:48:10.680 I have never been more sexualized in my life than 0:48:10.680 --> 0:48:13.120 when I was age fourteen to eighteen, Like I get 0:48:13.200 --> 0:48:15.799 cat called way less as an adult woman than I 0:48:15.840 --> 0:48:19.799 did as a teenager, and the ways that kind of 0:48:19.840 --> 0:48:21.600 like I related so much of this movie with the 0:48:21.600 --> 0:48:24.600 way that like a girl's like pubescent body is kind 0:48:24.640 --> 0:48:28.000 of made public when she enters womanhood, Like your body 0:48:28.000 --> 0:48:30.640 becomes grounds for like anyone to comment on. I remember 0:48:30.680 --> 0:48:32.760 I had female relatives who would just grab my boobs 0:48:32.800 --> 0:48:34.719 like yeah and be like oh, like oh they're coming in, 0:48:34.960 --> 0:48:37.680 you know, yeah, And it wasn't like malicious, but it's 0:48:37.680 --> 0:48:39.440 like why why is my body all of a sudden 0:48:39.440 --> 0:48:43.560 this like springboard for discourse when like I'm so uncomfortable 0:48:43.560 --> 0:48:45.200 in it, and I don't know what to make of it. 0:48:45.239 --> 0:48:47.160 I don't have sexual feelings yet, but like I have 0:48:47.400 --> 0:48:50.840 a sexual body now, and I think that the movie 0:48:51.080 --> 0:48:54.680 really tackles that's subject matter in an interesting way. Yeah, 0:48:54.719 --> 0:48:57.640 and that was a major reason why I liked it. Yeah, 0:48:57.640 --> 0:49:00.360 but obviously it's like a really difficult topic and like 0:49:00.480 --> 0:49:04.120 very touchy. Yeah, but yeah, I was thinking I wrote 0:49:04.120 --> 0:49:05.760 down breasts as a sight of tension. 0:49:06.120 --> 0:49:10.280 Yes, I mean, in so many I totally agree where 0:49:10.600 --> 0:49:13.600 I feel like one of the things that this movie 0:49:13.640 --> 0:49:17.480 really does successfully get you too is to understand why 0:49:17.880 --> 0:49:20.960 by the end of this movie, Vivian is like, I 0:49:21.000 --> 0:49:24.919 don't want these breasts. I don't want them because they 0:49:24.920 --> 0:49:29.359 have not only caused her severe discomfort and scrutiny very 0:49:29.400 --> 0:49:32.960 suddenly in a way that because of how her life 0:49:33.040 --> 0:49:36.279 is structured and her family structure, she has no real 0:49:36.320 --> 0:49:40.880 protector from and no one to even contextualize why it's happening. 0:49:41.680 --> 0:49:45.520 She also like the inciting reason that she actually goes 0:49:45.640 --> 0:49:49.320 is because she sees her cousin I think, in her 0:49:49.800 --> 0:49:52.399 fourteen year old mind, like sees her cousin suffer as 0:49:52.400 --> 0:49:59.919 a result of having like boobs whatever it's I hate 0:50:00.040 --> 0:50:02.040 that we have not settled on a word that doesn't 0:50:02.080 --> 0:50:08.080 feel weird. But yeah, I totally feel like I think that, 0:50:08.239 --> 0:50:12.359 like everyone has their version of this too, where I 0:50:12.360 --> 0:50:15.000 think about because this is like, this is a movie 0:50:15.000 --> 0:50:19.080 that sort of set at the time of my mom's adolescence. 0:50:19.920 --> 0:50:24.160 The director is my mom's age, and the stories that 0:50:24.440 --> 0:50:26.640 you know over not until I was an adult was 0:50:26.680 --> 0:50:30.400 I sort of aware of, like how the way that 0:50:30.440 --> 0:50:33.280 my mom perceived herself and the way that people perceived 0:50:33.280 --> 0:50:37.680 her body when she was coming of age like informed 0:50:38.640 --> 0:50:42.719 a lot of the issues I had, right, but just 0:50:43.120 --> 0:50:46.800 how this is like very intentionally a period piece because 0:50:46.840 --> 0:50:51.839 it's drawing directly from Tamorrow Jenkson's experience, and I think 0:50:52.160 --> 0:50:55.960 does seem to do very well with drawing how people 0:50:56.000 --> 0:50:59.200 would talk about girls' bodies specifically at this time, but 0:50:59.320 --> 0:51:02.600 also in a way that feels so familiar where. 0:51:02.680 --> 0:51:03.880 Not much has changed. 0:51:04.680 --> 0:51:06.839 Yeah, I mean, like Maya, I love that you said, like, yeah, 0:51:06.920 --> 0:51:12.600 your body is like used as a conversation topic and 0:51:12.680 --> 0:51:14.759 you're not allowed to say anything about it. And I 0:51:14.760 --> 0:51:18.160 feel like for her dad, it almost seems like he 0:51:18.440 --> 0:51:22.960 thinks he's being supportive by even acknowledging her body, and 0:51:23.000 --> 0:51:26.720 by criticizing her body, that's how he feels he's able 0:51:26.800 --> 0:51:29.680 to like participate in her life in this way that 0:51:29.840 --> 0:51:32.880 is like so dark and sad, and you can see 0:51:33.280 --> 0:51:36.359 exactly how I mean. That scene at the sizzler at 0:51:36.360 --> 0:51:41.520 the beginning was so frustrating, probably because it felt just 0:51:41.640 --> 0:51:46.839 familiar enough where you could see not just her dad criticizing, 0:51:46.920 --> 0:51:51.000 like you can't wear that top. I vividly remember being 0:51:51.040 --> 0:51:54.400 told by any number of family members to put a 0:51:54.520 --> 0:51:57.959 bra on in a top that made it one hundred 0:51:58.000 --> 0:52:02.000 percent more embarrassing to be where that was so specific 0:52:02.040 --> 0:52:05.000 and so good. But then but then to see her 0:52:05.040 --> 0:52:09.480 brother mimic that behavior for the dad's approval. I think 0:52:09.480 --> 0:52:12.920 that like really hit for like it, because that's the 0:52:12.960 --> 0:52:16.080 whole David Crumhold's character. And I remember that from like 0:52:16.160 --> 0:52:21.640 my older boy cousins, like seeing what how other men 0:52:21.680 --> 0:52:25.440 would act and then projecting that same you know stuff 0:52:25.440 --> 0:52:28.279 at me and my cousins or whoever else, and then 0:52:28.360 --> 0:52:31.759 looking to their father for approval. Like I think she 0:52:31.880 --> 0:52:37.880 like illustrates that cycle really well and doesn't really present 0:52:37.920 --> 0:52:41.680 a solution for it, because yeah, we haven't figured that out. 0:52:42.680 --> 0:52:44.920 I think like what I do appreciate so much about 0:52:44.960 --> 0:52:47.960 the Like I it's tricky the way the movie depicts it, 0:52:48.000 --> 0:52:50.080 and like doesn't always necessarily work. But I do think 0:52:50.120 --> 0:52:52.840 what I appreciate is, like it really evokes a feeling 0:52:52.920 --> 0:52:55.120 of disgust, yeah, that you don't know what to do 0:52:55.160 --> 0:52:57.480 with because there's nothing that can be done in the scene, 0:52:57.520 --> 0:52:59.440 Like no one's advocating for her because it's like the 0:52:59.480 --> 0:53:01.319 time and the place right, and so you're kind of like, oh, 0:53:01.400 --> 0:53:04.319 like you just feel foul watching a lot of it. 0:53:04.400 --> 0:53:08.080 Yeah, Yeah, And I think like doesn't let other women 0:53:08.560 --> 0:53:12.399 off the like I think whatever the kind of most 0:53:12.440 --> 0:53:16.880 sanitized version of this story offers, Oh, she just needs 0:53:16.960 --> 0:53:20.759 a woman in her life, and like if if she 0:53:20.920 --> 0:53:23.200 talks to a woman, this will be resolved. But I 0:53:23.239 --> 0:53:28.160 think that this movie does is like open to women 0:53:28.280 --> 0:53:30.680 being also fucked up and having a lot of like 0:53:31.160 --> 0:53:36.279 internalized hatred of an acceptance of behaviors, which is so 0:53:36.920 --> 0:53:42.000 much I think, and like Rita's more lucid, less carteit 0:53:42.120 --> 0:53:44.319 because there are moments with Rita where I'm like, I 0:53:44.320 --> 0:53:47.040 have no idea what the hell she's doing, but in 0:53:47.080 --> 0:53:50.640 her more like grounded moments, it's like, yeah, like Rita 0:53:50.800 --> 0:53:56.120 is has a lot of internalized acceptance of how she's, 0:53:56.360 --> 0:53:59.839 how she's been treated, and how she is, how she's 0:53:59.840 --> 0:54:03.680 accepting of being treated in a way that isn't going 0:54:03.760 --> 0:54:07.239 to be helpful to viv in a way that I 0:54:07.280 --> 0:54:11.640 don't know, Like it's it's frustrating for the character, but 0:54:11.920 --> 0:54:16.560 also feels very real, like there is no real off ramp, 0:54:17.040 --> 0:54:20.920 even when people are trying. I think women try to 0:54:20.960 --> 0:54:22.919 show up for viv but like, no one is quite 0:54:22.960 --> 0:54:25.200 able to do it right. 0:54:25.600 --> 0:54:29.719 Vivian having this new presence in her life of this 0:54:30.800 --> 0:54:34.960 guardian esque, not quite mother figure, but like, you know, 0:54:35.000 --> 0:54:39.399 a familiar person who she grew up with and who 0:54:40.200 --> 0:54:45.520 is older and wiser than her, but is, as we're saying, 0:54:46.440 --> 0:54:52.920 harboring a lot of you know, internalized misogyny and like 0:54:53.120 --> 0:54:57.600 body image issues. There's all these There are several moments 0:54:57.600 --> 0:55:01.920 where Rita talks about how fat she thinks she is 0:55:01.960 --> 0:55:04.440 and how she needs to lose weight, and that's a 0:55:04.440 --> 0:55:08.680 whole other topic of conversation. But you know, she is 0:55:08.719 --> 0:55:13.440 not fully equipped to be a parent or like a 0:55:13.560 --> 0:55:14.200 role model. 0:55:14.640 --> 0:55:17.200 She's Vivian like asking to be a parrot. 0:55:17.440 --> 0:55:23.600 Either, no you know, and then we see Vivian constantly 0:55:23.680 --> 0:55:29.640 reconciling I have these again, breasts. It's such a It's 0:55:29.680 --> 0:55:31.600 the same way that I hate the word penis because 0:55:31.600 --> 0:55:34.960 it just feels so clinical. But it's like, you know, 0:55:35.160 --> 0:55:36.080 the correct term. 0:55:36.640 --> 0:55:39.279 I like the way that Natasha Leone says it. It 0:55:39.360 --> 0:55:42.319 sounds casual when she says it. 0:55:42.320 --> 0:55:45.160 It's that raspy voice. Can even do an impression well 0:55:45.440 --> 0:55:46.879 I'm getting over right now. 0:55:48.120 --> 0:55:50.640 You can do it. 0:55:51.239 --> 0:55:53.600 Someone smoke a cigarette and then try it. 0:55:53.800 --> 0:55:55.920 I'm just gonna sound like gollum if I do it 0:55:56.000 --> 0:56:03.799 like breasts. But anyway, so Vivian is reconciling all these 0:56:03.800 --> 0:56:11.080 conflicting feelings about, you know, I'm developing into this adolescent body. 0:56:11.560 --> 0:56:14.720 I have breasts now. She resents that because she's seen 0:56:14.760 --> 0:56:20.520 the way that women are so heavily objectified for their 0:56:20.560 --> 0:56:25.200 physiques and for their breasts. So she resents that, but 0:56:25.320 --> 0:56:28.640 it seems like she's also trying to figure out how 0:56:28.680 --> 0:56:31.680 to navigate that, in the sense that, like, my breasts 0:56:31.680 --> 0:56:34.799 aren't going to go away, So what can I do 0:56:34.880 --> 0:56:39.280 about this? How can I reclaim some agency? To your point, 0:56:39.560 --> 0:56:43.840 Maya about like can I sort of like take my 0:56:43.960 --> 0:56:46.799 power back? And take control of the situation, which we 0:56:46.840 --> 0:56:48.880 see in that scene in the laundry room when she 0:56:49.040 --> 0:56:53.440 asks Elliott if he wants to touch her breasts and 0:56:53.480 --> 0:56:57.040 he says yes, and then he starts to unbuckle his pants. 0:56:57.120 --> 0:56:59.719 She was very clear about do you want to touch 0:56:59.760 --> 0:57:04.600 my rests? He interprets that, however, as do you want 0:57:04.640 --> 0:57:08.040 to fuck me right now in the laundry room, and 0:57:08.080 --> 0:57:12.800 she has to say, like, no, I was clear about 0:57:12.800 --> 0:57:16.880 what I wanted, and he completely misinterprets it in the 0:57:16.920 --> 0:57:22.520 way that so many men willfully do in situations like this. 0:57:22.840 --> 0:57:26.040 Well, I don't want to like launch the conversation forward 0:57:26.200 --> 0:57:29.600 too much, but that was one of the many scenes 0:57:29.640 --> 0:57:32.680 where I guess I'm trying to figure out how I 0:57:32.760 --> 0:57:37.920 feel about how this specific issue is landed within this movie. 0:57:38.440 --> 0:57:41.600 I think the theme is definitely present of like and 0:57:41.600 --> 0:57:43.280 this is like sort of what we've all been talking 0:57:43.320 --> 0:57:48.560 about to some extent, of girls like developing bodies and 0:57:48.600 --> 0:57:52.560 how that affects how men, how everyone, but how specifically 0:57:52.880 --> 0:57:57.440 men treat them and talk to them, and how objectively 0:57:57.480 --> 0:58:00.400 to be. In this scene, it is obviously on Kevin 0:58:00.440 --> 0:58:09.280 kringan character to say no when a child offers themselves sexually. 0:58:09.440 --> 0:58:12.840 We know that Vivian is canonically fourteen years old, and 0:58:12.880 --> 0:58:15.240 he knows that too, and he's aware of this. That 0:58:15.320 --> 0:58:17.320 is one of the first things he learns about her, 0:58:17.360 --> 0:58:19.720 and he says, oh wow, you look older, which is 0:58:19.800 --> 0:58:22.360 so important, and how he treats her the whole time. 0:58:23.520 --> 0:58:25.640 What I think is interesting at a number of points 0:58:25.640 --> 0:58:28.600 in this movie is that we do cannot It's not 0:58:28.680 --> 0:58:31.480 a question of like, do the characters know what they 0:58:31.520 --> 0:58:34.520 need to know? They always know what they need to know, 0:58:35.240 --> 0:58:39.960 and sometimes I feel like plot wise, they get off 0:58:40.120 --> 0:58:43.440 the hook a little bit. Where do I believe that 0:58:43.560 --> 0:58:46.560 in nineteen seventy six that the Kevin Corgan character would 0:58:46.560 --> 0:58:48.600 absolutely get away with this and no one would think 0:58:48.880 --> 0:58:52.200 anything about it. Yes, but I guess I was like 0:58:52.400 --> 0:58:55.960 kind of bumped and like hah a number of times 0:58:56.000 --> 0:58:58.840 that like, why is the movie not? The movie doesn't 0:58:58.840 --> 0:59:00.720 seem to be pushing back on it as much as 0:59:00.760 --> 0:59:04.840 I was, I guess wanting it too. I agree, because 0:59:04.880 --> 0:59:07.240 we know at every single step of the way that 0:59:07.320 --> 0:59:09.400 he knows. But at the end, I don't think that 0:59:09.400 --> 0:59:11.920 we're meant to dislike him. I don't know, well, and. 0:59:11.920 --> 0:59:14.240 I think this is the ultimate kind of like distinction 0:59:14.360 --> 0:59:16.960 to me between like when let's say, Diary of a 0:59:16.960 --> 0:59:18.800 Teenage Girl was made in this because Diary of a 0:59:18.840 --> 0:59:21.600 Teenage Girl is like very much a drama, Like there 0:59:21.640 --> 0:59:24.560 are funny elements, but it's like quite tragic and like 0:59:24.640 --> 0:59:28.840 extremely disturbing as lighthearted as it sometimes maybe, whereas this movie, 0:59:28.880 --> 0:59:31.720 like tonally yeah, really contrasts with some of its subject 0:59:31.760 --> 0:59:34.760 matter and really does make you think about what Tamara 0:59:34.880 --> 0:59:37.320 Jenkins thinks of the subject matter because you can see 0:59:37.320 --> 0:59:40.960 what she's trying to do. But even and like I 0:59:40.960 --> 0:59:42.520 don't know if this was gonna come up later, but 0:59:42.600 --> 0:59:44.880 like thinking of the concept of the male gaze, Like 0:59:44.880 --> 0:59:46.800 I've seen a lot of people online talk about how 0:59:46.840 --> 0:59:48.920 this movie is like can perpetuates the male gaze. I 0:59:48.960 --> 0:59:51.560 don't necessarily know if it does, but I do think 0:59:51.560 --> 0:59:54.120 there are elements of it. Like one of my like 0:59:54.160 --> 0:59:57.160 the ways that I diagnose a male gaze in a 0:59:57.200 --> 1:00:00.400 movie is like when the camera like severs ahead of 1:00:00.400 --> 1:00:02.680 the woman and like isolates different body. 1:00:02.360 --> 1:00:04.880 Parts headless women of Hollywood vibe. 1:00:04.600 --> 1:00:07.320 Headless women of Hollywood, Yeah, isolates the woman from her 1:00:07.360 --> 1:00:09.680 personhood and like will isolate the body parts. And this 1:00:09.760 --> 1:00:13.320 movie does do that obviously, but with the scenes it's because. 1:00:13.080 --> 1:00:14.800 Of body doubles too. 1:00:15.000 --> 1:00:18.040 For body doubles, but then inadvertently kind of severs the 1:00:18.160 --> 1:00:20.880 character from the personhood as well. And you're like, hmm, 1:00:21.760 --> 1:00:23.480 And that's why I think it's so complicated, because there's 1:00:23.480 --> 1:00:24.960 so many kind of like angles you could look at 1:00:25.000 --> 1:00:29.280 it from, but I could. I definitely think it lets 1:00:29.440 --> 1:00:32.760 the male characters off the hook via tone. 1:00:33.040 --> 1:00:35.640 Yeah, yeah, like in a way that the seventies would. 1:00:35.680 --> 1:00:38.960 But I don't understand why the director does. And I 1:00:39.360 --> 1:00:42.080 was looking for this and I wasn't able to find it. 1:00:42.160 --> 1:00:44.480 Maybe we'll get it for the twenty or the thirty year, 1:00:44.640 --> 1:00:48.440 god the thirty year anniversary of this movie, but I 1:00:48.520 --> 1:00:51.520 wasn't able to find a lot of Tamara Jenkins speaking 1:00:51.560 --> 1:00:55.480 on this theme specifically, because I would be really curious 1:00:55.520 --> 1:00:59.560 again because I'm projecting my mom onto her to some degree, 1:00:59.640 --> 1:01:03.160 as like they were born the same year, and I 1:01:03.240 --> 1:01:07.080 know that my mom's feelings on what she viewed as like, well, 1:01:07.080 --> 1:01:09.640 that was the world then, blah blah blah in nineteen 1:01:09.720 --> 1:01:14.440 ninety eight versus now is wildly different because she watched 1:01:14.600 --> 1:01:17.920 me grow up and experience a lot of those same things, 1:01:18.520 --> 1:01:20.680 and so I would I would just be really curious 1:01:20.720 --> 1:01:25.040 if her perspective on this has shifted over time. I mean, 1:01:25.040 --> 1:01:27.960 I'm assuming it has, but I would. I just am like, 1:01:28.720 --> 1:01:32.920 I want more info on how she thinks about it now, 1:01:32.960 --> 1:01:34.800 because she was in her thirties when this came out. 1:01:34.840 --> 1:01:38.480 But like the sexual politics of the nineties, like like 1:01:38.600 --> 1:01:41.640 you we're saying, Maya, are also really fraught and in 1:01:41.760 --> 1:01:46.480 terms of like what women and young women are expected 1:01:46.560 --> 1:01:49.800 to accept and internalize. 1:01:49.760 --> 1:01:51.520 Well, it was like the height of like the Nymph 1:01:52.120 --> 1:01:55.720 you know movie, Oh yeah, Stone like that was that 1:01:55.840 --> 1:01:57.640 was that like reaching all time peakle like you talk 1:01:57.680 --> 1:01:58.520 about in Lalite. 1:01:58.560 --> 1:01:59.600 I was like, where did I learn that? 1:02:00.160 --> 1:02:02.320 I learned it from your podcasts, you see. 1:02:02.960 --> 1:02:04.480 Yeah, this is the year. I mean, this is like 1:02:04.520 --> 1:02:09.320 the year after the the Jeremy Irons Lolita adaptation. Like 1:02:09.360 --> 1:02:12.240 the nineties is the verse full of this stuff, but 1:02:12.480 --> 1:02:15.000 very rarely from women, which is why I think I 1:02:15.040 --> 1:02:19.400 went into this expecting a little more pushback and not 1:02:19.520 --> 1:02:23.240 quite finding it. And that's not even a criticism of 1:02:23.440 --> 1:02:26.640 Tamura Jenkins necessarily. It's just like, I just I just 1:02:26.720 --> 1:02:27.680 want more info. 1:02:28.240 --> 1:02:32.320 It is it is emblematic of the attitude of the time. Yeah, 1:02:32.360 --> 1:02:37.000 and I also think that the movie thinks that that 1:02:37.080 --> 1:02:45.480 relationship between Vivian and Elliott is quote unquote okay, because 1:02:45.800 --> 1:02:51.920 it is mostly Vivian behind the steering wheel, determining what's happening, 1:02:52.560 --> 1:02:57.520 initiating sexual contact, et cetera. Make no mistake, the scene 1:02:57.520 --> 1:03:00.880 where they have sex in the car is statue tory rape. 1:03:00.960 --> 1:03:03.560 Well, it's like also starts that way too, Like the 1:03:03.600 --> 1:03:08.760 scene is initiated by him shoving weed into her pants, 1:03:08.920 --> 1:03:12.560 Like it starts as an adult, you know, like assaulting 1:03:12.640 --> 1:03:17.840 a kid, and then evolves into statutory rape off screen. Yeah, 1:03:17.840 --> 1:03:20.240 this gets into like Lolita stuff quite a bit, where 1:03:20.320 --> 1:03:25.480 it's literally fourteen year old girls regardless of like if 1:03:25.480 --> 1:03:29.400 a fourteen year old initiates or attempts to initiate sex 1:03:29.440 --> 1:03:32.920 with an adult, the adult says no, like it's just 1:03:33.080 --> 1:03:37.280 it's just not And I do think that the this 1:03:37.360 --> 1:03:40.080 is not a murky age difference between the two of us. 1:03:40.160 --> 1:03:41.920 We're not talking about a fourteen year old and a 1:03:41.960 --> 1:03:44.440 sixteen year old or like, you know some of the 1:03:44.600 --> 1:03:48.080 trickier conversations here where it's like, how do we interpret 1:03:48.120 --> 1:03:50.480 the letter of the law. This guy is like potentially 1:03:50.560 --> 1:03:54.360 ten years older than her, you know, and Natasha Leone 1:03:54.480 --> 1:03:58.480 and Kevin Corgan are for contacts ten years apart in age. 1:03:59.080 --> 1:04:01.640 We don't know exactly how old he's supposed to be 1:04:01.720 --> 1:04:04.400 in the movie, but it's old enough that like it 1:04:04.480 --> 1:04:10.960 is absolutely on him to say no. And it's just 1:04:11.040 --> 1:04:13.240 so I don't know, I really struggle with it. 1:04:13.240 --> 1:04:15.120 What I've like and I keep bringing up Diary of 1:04:15.120 --> 1:04:17.000 a teenage Girl, but there's just so many parallels. But 1:04:17.080 --> 1:04:20.160 like what that movie does is like similar to viv 1:04:20.280 --> 1:04:23.919 Like that the main character learns sexuality from the older 1:04:23.960 --> 1:04:26.000 women in her life who have experienced this kind of 1:04:26.000 --> 1:04:29.200 sexual revolution, like who are hyper sexual maybe kind of 1:04:29.240 --> 1:04:31.160 embodied some of the misogyny of the time or like 1:04:31.200 --> 1:04:34.680 absorbed it. And it's like the younger, this like teenage 1:04:34.720 --> 1:04:37.080 girl not fully understanding what's going on and like trying 1:04:37.120 --> 1:04:39.480 to seize control of her own sexuality because she's like, 1:04:39.480 --> 1:04:41.640 well everyone else is liberated, like I can be too. 1:04:42.320 --> 1:04:45.320 But in that movie, like it's very much condemning the 1:04:45.440 --> 1:04:48.640 mother's boyfriend for like allowing this, even though she initiates 1:04:48.800 --> 1:04:49.480 almost all of it. 1:04:49.640 --> 1:04:50.040 Mm hmm. 1:04:50.280 --> 1:04:53.360 He like allows her to do so, but in slums 1:04:53.360 --> 1:04:55.480 of Beverly Hills. Yeah, you can look at it and 1:04:55.520 --> 1:04:58.000 be like, oh wow, that's really progressive thinking about like 1:04:58.040 --> 1:04:59.840 the way that it's kind of like taking this lens 1:04:59.840 --> 1:05:03.640 of viv learning from Rita this type of like hypersexuality, 1:05:03.680 --> 1:05:05.240 and then being like, Okay, I'm going to also be 1:05:05.320 --> 1:05:08.800 like this. But then yeah, when when it kind of 1:05:08.840 --> 1:05:11.080 turns it around and you're supposed to kind of empathize 1:05:11.080 --> 1:05:12.920 with the guy because she didn't tell them she's a virgin, 1:05:13.000 --> 1:05:15.080 it's like, ooh, I don't Yeah, I don't know what 1:05:15.120 --> 1:05:16.080 he was going for there. 1:05:16.120 --> 1:05:19.320 The seventies was so close, really truly like and it 1:05:19.360 --> 1:05:24.040 feels like a weird time capsule of like thinking from 1:05:24.160 --> 1:05:26.960 the nineties of like women of the nineties reflecting on 1:05:27.280 --> 1:05:29.040 coming of an age and the seventies. And this is 1:05:29.080 --> 1:05:32.920 also insanely specific, but it's also like, but that's our moms, 1:05:33.080 --> 1:05:37.480 and like, I don't know, Yeah, it really stuck with 1:05:37.600 --> 1:05:41.760 me where I'm sure that like women in their thirties 1:05:41.840 --> 1:05:44.880 right now are doing the same kind of rationalization in 1:05:44.960 --> 1:05:48.240 all of these How there's so many movies happening in 1:05:48.240 --> 1:05:50.240 the early two thousands right now, right where it's like 1:05:50.560 --> 1:05:53.680 everyone is meditating on their childhood, everyone's meditating on their 1:05:53.720 --> 1:05:58.440 coming of age and trying to make art that rationalizes it. 1:05:59.120 --> 1:06:01.720 And so I don't know, I think, I don't think 1:06:01.760 --> 1:06:06.560 that this exact story would have come out of sis man, 1:06:06.720 --> 1:06:09.920 Like it just wouldn't have. And it's so specific and 1:06:09.960 --> 1:06:14.560 it almost just to me feels like her processing and 1:06:14.600 --> 1:06:16.600 it again, it just reminds me of how I've heard 1:06:16.600 --> 1:06:18.800 my mom talk of how I've talked in the past 1:06:18.840 --> 1:06:23.800 about my own formative sexual experiences, where I give myself 1:06:23.960 --> 1:06:29.440 more agency than I actually had at the time to 1:06:29.560 --> 1:06:32.880 be okay with whatever it was, to feel like I 1:06:32.960 --> 1:06:35.920 was maybe more in control than I was. Because there 1:06:35.920 --> 1:06:38.360 are moments to me and I know that like everyone 1:06:38.440 --> 1:06:40.680 is different, everyone has a different background, but there are 1:06:40.680 --> 1:06:43.640 moments where I feel like the way that Viv is 1:06:43.720 --> 1:06:48.080 setting boundaries very firmly and clearly felt to me a 1:06:48.120 --> 1:06:50.840 little out of step with how fourteen year olds behave. 1:06:52.760 --> 1:06:54.680 I mean, I don't think fourteen year olds say I'm 1:06:54.680 --> 1:06:57.080 not looking for anything serious right now, you know what 1:06:57.120 --> 1:06:57.479 I mean? 1:06:57.880 --> 1:07:00.640 Like, right, I think there is it's like an element 1:07:00.680 --> 1:07:02.640 to it where she's almost like grown up, grown up 1:07:02.680 --> 1:07:05.960 too quickly because of this like nomadic environment where she 1:07:06.040 --> 1:07:07.840 kind of has to be like the wife and the 1:07:07.960 --> 1:07:10.720 daughter because her dad is such a manchild and like 1:07:10.760 --> 1:07:13.000 a mess. And I think there is that element of it, 1:07:12.840 --> 1:07:14.280 but no, definitely. 1:07:14.560 --> 1:07:20.800 Yeah, well I remember several instances from my teen years 1:07:20.880 --> 1:07:24.680 and like formative sexual experiences and feelings and things like 1:07:24.720 --> 1:07:30.920 that where technically I was consenting, but I was only 1:07:30.960 --> 1:07:35.160 doing that because I felt some coercion, whether it was 1:07:35.200 --> 1:07:39.680 like directly from someone else or just like peer pressure 1:07:40.200 --> 1:07:44.400 for societal pressure. So I feel like that's a lot 1:07:44.520 --> 1:07:51.600 of what Vivian is experiencing, and where it lands in 1:07:51.640 --> 1:07:54.480 the story, I guess this isn't even where it lands, 1:07:54.520 --> 1:07:58.240 because she sees Elliott again after this as she's like 1:07:58.400 --> 1:08:01.720 moving out of that building. But the scene in the 1:08:01.840 --> 1:08:07.720 car and that ends with him be rating her and saying, 1:08:07.880 --> 1:08:10.400 you didn't know I'm the victim here. You didn't even 1:08:10.400 --> 1:08:13.440 think about me. Yeah, has put so much pressure on 1:08:13.560 --> 1:08:14.400 is He's saying. 1:08:14.120 --> 1:08:19.599 Like you tricked me into assaulting adizing a minor quote 1:08:19.640 --> 1:08:21.000 unquote right, yeah, which. 1:08:21.040 --> 1:08:22.639 Is fourteen year old's a virgin. 1:08:23.560 --> 1:08:26.920 Right. He's like, he's so full of shit, And I 1:08:26.960 --> 1:08:29.360 do feel like the movie knows he's full of shit, 1:08:29.840 --> 1:08:32.720 but then the tuba music hits, and I like him 1:08:32.840 --> 1:08:36.960 dissociate because that scene was about to be so like 1:08:37.000 --> 1:08:39.000 it feels like there are some scenes that ends like 1:08:39.160 --> 1:08:43.920 five lines of dialogue to soon before I wanted them to, yeah, 1:08:44.320 --> 1:08:48.599 where that scene ends. Really, I was like, my god, 1:08:48.760 --> 1:08:49.479 like I'm. 1:08:49.280 --> 1:08:52.000 A complicit tuba. 1:08:52.240 --> 1:08:56.000 It's the complicit accordion player being like and let's keep 1:08:56.000 --> 1:08:59.360 it moving, like it felt like truly the studio does 1:08:59.400 --> 1:09:03.360 accordion coming in at certain moments before I could get 1:09:03.360 --> 1:09:06.960 the resolution I wanted, because I do think and like 1:09:07.040 --> 1:09:11.160 this is I'm fully guessing here, but that if the 1:09:11.200 --> 1:09:13.479 line of dialogue was written down, it feels like it 1:09:13.600 --> 1:09:16.800 is written that he's supposed to look like a fool 1:09:17.520 --> 1:09:20.960 in that moment. But then the music in the movie 1:09:21.040 --> 1:09:23.479 and the remainder of the movie seems to be fighting 1:09:23.720 --> 1:09:24.599 with that well. 1:09:24.600 --> 1:09:26.559 And he's such a loser, like with his like Mansion 1:09:26.760 --> 1:09:28.960 Manson shirts, and I thought it was so relatable the 1:09:29.000 --> 1:09:31.519 way he just talks at her about Charles Manson and 1:09:31.640 --> 1:09:34.519 his music, and like, you know, it's so the movie 1:09:34.640 --> 1:09:37.160 is like satirizing him. He is such a like kind 1:09:37.200 --> 1:09:39.439 of guy, but I love what you said about Tamar 1:09:39.600 --> 1:09:43.599 Jenkin's processing through writing this, Like, I don't know if 1:09:43.640 --> 1:09:46.280 any of these experiences within this movie are like exactly hers. 1:09:46.280 --> 1:09:48.000 I know that she mostly just talked about like the 1:09:48.000 --> 1:09:50.599 experience of being nomadic, growing up in Beverly Hills with 1:09:50.640 --> 1:09:52.640 like a lower middle class family. 1:09:52.439 --> 1:09:54.720 And having an old dad too, because that's what having 1:09:54.720 --> 1:09:57.479 an old savage, that's what Savage is about. It's about 1:09:57.479 --> 1:09:59.040 having a really old dad. 1:09:58.840 --> 1:10:02.640 Having an old dad, I said, really, but yeah, she 1:10:02.640 --> 1:10:04.679 hasn't talked a lot about whether or not these sexual 1:10:04.720 --> 1:10:07.439 experiences are her own. But I would love to see 1:10:07.560 --> 1:10:10.559 like a spiritual follow up to it, because I'm all 1:10:10.560 --> 1:10:13.080 for a movie just kind of representing the culture of 1:10:13.120 --> 1:10:15.320 its time. But yeah, but yeah, I would also be 1:10:15.320 --> 1:10:17.400 curious to know what she would say about all of 1:10:17.439 --> 1:10:18.439 this years later. 1:10:18.680 --> 1:10:19.040 Yeah. 1:10:19.120 --> 1:10:23.679 Well, and then the other big scene to talk about, 1:10:23.800 --> 1:10:25.360 or at least one of the other big scenes to 1:10:25.360 --> 1:10:30.599 talk about, is the scene where Marie assaults his niece 1:10:31.160 --> 1:10:34.160 and how that's written and what pans out in that 1:10:34.320 --> 1:10:39.080 scene where you know they're having this tender moment of 1:10:39.160 --> 1:10:44.800 consoling each other. She's coming around after having overdosed and 1:10:44.880 --> 1:10:48.080 having to be revived by paramedics. You know, this has 1:10:48.120 --> 1:10:51.080 been a traumatic day for her already. 1:10:51.400 --> 1:10:56.040 Yeah, and a lot of tonal dissonance for us the viewer. Yes, yeah, 1:10:56.439 --> 1:10:59.240 the whole character of Rita. I felt like we were 1:10:59.320 --> 1:11:03.840 said between like a lot of comedic beats and then 1:11:04.000 --> 1:11:06.680 all of a sudden abject tragedy. And then in the 1:11:06.720 --> 1:11:10.960 next scene she's back to being cookie. Yeah, which is like, 1:11:11.800 --> 1:11:14.920 I see how that it didn't quite work for me. 1:11:15.120 --> 1:11:17.120 I think I understood what she was going for, but 1:11:17.160 --> 1:11:19.799 it just like it felt a little weird to me. Yeah, 1:11:19.800 --> 1:11:22.439 but this is this is definitely one of the abject 1:11:22.439 --> 1:11:24.320 tragedy scenes for sure. 1:11:24.520 --> 1:11:28.439 My reparative reading of this scene, like, yeah, I didn't 1:11:28.439 --> 1:11:29.920 even know how to feel about it. The first time 1:11:29.920 --> 1:11:32.400 I watched it, I felt complicated and I was I 1:11:32.439 --> 1:11:36.559 was really intrigued that it was depicted. I do feel 1:11:36.680 --> 1:11:39.639 undecided about the way that the scene happens. And then 1:11:39.640 --> 1:11:41.960 it kind of follows up, like the next time we 1:11:42.000 --> 1:11:44.280 see the dad, he's kind of framed within this empathetic 1:11:44.360 --> 1:11:47.120 lens of like, you know, a father who's like struggling 1:11:47.160 --> 1:11:50.080 with emasculation as he like struggles with class and like 1:11:50.120 --> 1:11:52.880 the kind of correlation between those things, which you know, 1:11:52.920 --> 1:11:55.879 like I grew up with dad who struggled on occasion financially, 1:11:55.960 --> 1:11:57.519 and it was it was hard to watch. And so 1:11:57.600 --> 1:12:00.400 I really really like liked that scene the dinner where 1:12:00.400 --> 1:12:02.000 the dad's trying to pay. I think it's like a 1:12:02.040 --> 1:12:05.960 really interesting depiction of fatherhood. But yeah, I guess am 1:12:05.960 --> 1:12:07.840 I repairtive reading of this scene would just be like 1:12:07.880 --> 1:12:10.000 what do we do with the people we love when 1:12:10.000 --> 1:12:13.080 they do bad things? And I think when she confronts 1:12:13.200 --> 1:12:16.080 Rita in the bathroom, you're kind of like I could 1:12:16.160 --> 1:12:18.040 read it like as probably what it was, which is 1:12:18.040 --> 1:12:21.360 the nineties kind of condemning women for quote unquote seducing 1:12:21.400 --> 1:12:24.360 men or like driving men mix. Yeah, but I also 1:12:24.400 --> 1:12:27.600 read it as like Viv trying to kind of reconcile 1:12:27.680 --> 1:12:29.559 or deal with this like new image of her father 1:12:29.680 --> 1:12:32.200 that she's just not ready to she's not ready to 1:12:32.320 --> 1:12:36.160 kind of accept, and taking it out on Rita, taking 1:12:36.160 --> 1:12:38.320 it out on her cousin. And I do think that 1:12:38.360 --> 1:12:40.320 the movie really puts us in that position of like 1:12:40.360 --> 1:12:41.800 what do we do with this man who like we 1:12:41.840 --> 1:12:43.680 have kind of come to like as the movie goes on, 1:12:43.760 --> 1:12:46.320 like he's funny whatever he's he can be a tender father. 1:12:46.479 --> 1:12:48.240 Elan Arkin is so likable. 1:12:48.400 --> 1:12:52.280 Yeah, Alan Arkan has mad riz so like, yeah, what 1:12:52.320 --> 1:12:55.720 do we do with this character and the movie? I 1:12:55.720 --> 1:12:57.800 think in the emasculation scene is kind of letting him 1:12:57.800 --> 1:13:01.840 off the hook, which I feel complicated about. Yeah, but yeah, 1:13:01.840 --> 1:13:03.000 it's a tough one. 1:13:03.479 --> 1:13:06.439 Yeah, I think for me because I know that that 1:13:06.560 --> 1:13:12.760 scene specifically is where just having gathered some rough, letterboxed 1:13:12.840 --> 1:13:15.680 data and going through just how this movie has been 1:13:15.720 --> 1:13:17.880 talked about over the years, this is the scene where 1:13:18.000 --> 1:13:22.960 the movie loses a lot of people, I have complicated 1:13:23.000 --> 1:13:26.960 feelings about it. Similarly, I have a bigger issue with 1:13:27.360 --> 1:13:31.920 how the movie ends than that plot point being introduced. 1:13:32.080 --> 1:13:36.160 I think I think that what's important to me is 1:13:36.479 --> 1:13:39.840 how the movie deals with the fallout of that. And 1:13:39.880 --> 1:13:44.479 I thought that felt more. The ending felt so neat, 1:13:44.640 --> 1:13:47.400 and it felt like in a way that was presented 1:13:47.520 --> 1:13:50.240 too cleanly. Of like, and now this girl who is 1:13:50.280 --> 1:13:53.920 still fourteen years old and more fucked up than when 1:13:54.000 --> 1:13:56.679 she started, and her father has not changed at all. 1:13:56.760 --> 1:13:59.080 He's doing exactly what he did at the beginning of 1:13:59.120 --> 1:14:01.920 the movie. She has now accepted that this is how 1:14:01.960 --> 1:14:05.880 the world is and now she understands that and she 1:14:06.080 --> 1:14:09.320 is taking on the role of being the daughter and 1:14:09.479 --> 1:14:12.800 the mother of this family. And I mean, we're kind 1:14:12.800 --> 1:14:17.200 of told this in I think, pretty like straightforwardly in 1:14:17.240 --> 1:14:21.960 the closing like voiceover, that's all, it's all good, baby, 1:14:22.120 --> 1:14:24.960 it's life's about the journey, and you're just like that 1:14:25.200 --> 1:14:27.720 was not my takeaway for the last half hour of 1:14:27.760 --> 1:14:29.599 the movie. I think we're presented with a lot of 1:14:29.680 --> 1:14:33.360 really complicated things. And now I don't know how I 1:14:33.400 --> 1:14:37.519 would have felt half a decade ago watching it. Now, 1:14:37.800 --> 1:14:41.320 I think that, like you're saying, by you, it's not 1:14:41.520 --> 1:14:45.160 as if it is an option for Viv to abandon 1:14:45.200 --> 1:14:47.800 her family. Where the hell is she gonna go? Right? 1:14:48.720 --> 1:14:52.360 And I think in this time and the time the 1:14:52.439 --> 1:14:56.639 movie is made, I wasn't like offended or shocked that 1:14:57.560 --> 1:15:04.240 Viv considered her cousin Rita to be equally culpable, and 1:15:04.439 --> 1:15:08.639 that Rita it seems like everything about how Rita's life 1:15:08.680 --> 1:15:12.240 has gone has led her to consider herself culpable as well. 1:15:12.400 --> 1:15:17.640 And like the fact that she apologizes to Viv like 1:15:17.760 --> 1:15:20.120 broke my heart in a way that I think that 1:15:20.840 --> 1:15:23.160 I don't know and maybe I'm like overthinking it. But 1:15:23.520 --> 1:15:28.240 I felt like the movie understood that it wasn't Rita's fault. 1:15:28.439 --> 1:15:32.120 But the way that that scene plays out from there 1:15:32.720 --> 1:15:36.400 does not reflect how I read the performance. How I 1:15:36.439 --> 1:15:39.760 read this scene like, to me was like Rita's saying 1:15:39.800 --> 1:15:44.960 something pretty complicated there, like that line that she says, like, 1:15:46.080 --> 1:15:49.479 sometimes a person gets so hungry, and she's saying this 1:15:49.640 --> 1:15:55.559 in another in like Minionise, but she's speaking as she 1:15:55.600 --> 1:15:58.400 says this, but she says, sometimes a person gets so 1:15:58.479 --> 1:16:01.519 hungry he might do something not so proud of. I'm 1:16:01.560 --> 1:16:04.760 sorry you had to see it. I love you? Do 1:16:04.840 --> 1:16:08.320 you still love me? It's like it makes me so sad. 1:16:09.320 --> 1:16:11.200 And I thought it was kind of a sad like, 1:16:11.280 --> 1:16:15.519 kind of tragic encapsulation of Rita's character as someone who's 1:16:15.520 --> 1:16:17.840 absorbed kind of the comments around her, Like she is 1:16:17.880 --> 1:16:20.320 almost I don't want to say cautionary tale because I 1:16:20.320 --> 1:16:24.280 don't I like Rita, but she is almost like a 1:16:24.400 --> 1:16:27.360 bit of like what Viv could be like in her 1:16:27.400 --> 1:16:31.000 future if she kind of like believed the stuff men 1:16:31.040 --> 1:16:33.160 were saying to her, almost, you know what I mean. 1:16:33.200 --> 1:16:36.400 And I feel like that line almost feels like a 1:16:36.400 --> 1:16:39.360 tragic I don't know a tragic example of that. 1:16:39.680 --> 1:16:43.639 Yeah, I mean the scene is it's so hard because 1:16:43.680 --> 1:16:46.240 I feel like it approaches saying something and then like 1:16:46.920 --> 1:16:50.920 kind of doesn't end up sticking the landing, because it's 1:16:50.960 --> 1:16:54.439 like even in that dialogue, Rita is not saying this 1:16:54.640 --> 1:16:57.000 is my fault. I think she is more saying, like, 1:16:57.360 --> 1:16:59.960 this is how things are. I'm sorry that you had 1:16:59.920 --> 1:17:02.960 to see how I believe in how I accept that 1:17:03.120 --> 1:17:05.840 things are in a way that is like opening her 1:17:05.920 --> 1:17:09.040 up to this abuse. We know that very likely her 1:17:09.120 --> 1:17:12.360 uncle is doing this because he feels emasculated and is 1:17:12.439 --> 1:17:15.439 taking it out by sexually abusing his own niece, and 1:17:15.479 --> 1:17:19.400 that like none of this is okay, but like this 1:17:19.479 --> 1:17:23.200 is Vivian's first time encountering this and she has to 1:17:23.280 --> 1:17:27.280 decide can I accept this? And it weirdly feels like 1:17:27.800 --> 1:17:30.120 she decides that she will accept it in a way 1:17:30.160 --> 1:17:33.439 that I think many women of her generation did, and 1:17:33.479 --> 1:17:36.559 that was I think what I really made me sad 1:17:36.600 --> 1:17:38.400 about the end of this, And I hope is like 1:17:38.479 --> 1:17:43.240 a in process either studio notes being like wrap it up, 1:17:43.479 --> 1:17:47.439 or is like Tamar Jenkins like processing this in real time, 1:17:48.040 --> 1:17:51.040 because again, like I think there's a lot of women 1:17:51.360 --> 1:17:57.760 of my mom's generation who found or like sought empowerment 1:17:57.880 --> 1:18:00.439 by accepting it and just being like, I'm going to 1:18:00.520 --> 1:18:02.800 move through the world anyways, in spite of the fact 1:18:02.840 --> 1:18:07.040 that this is how I will be treated in a 1:18:07.040 --> 1:18:10.600 way that kind of like lacks you know, collectivity, and 1:18:11.240 --> 1:18:11.720 you know, but. 1:18:13.479 --> 1:18:17.320 It's just so tough, right, I mean that we see 1:18:17.439 --> 1:18:25.479 Vivian confronting Rita about being assaulted and placing the blame 1:18:25.680 --> 1:18:32.519 on Rita and not at all blaming her father for 1:18:32.600 --> 1:18:39.120 his actions. It's reflective of the pervasive attitude of the seventies, 1:18:39.160 --> 1:18:42.880 of the nineties and largely still today that if a 1:18:42.960 --> 1:18:45.720 man assaults a woman it was her fault, she was 1:18:45.800 --> 1:18:51.800 asking for it, whatever. So it's reflective of the attitude, but. 1:18:52.240 --> 1:18:55.479 It's not really commenting on it, I guess. 1:18:54.800 --> 1:18:57.800 Not commenting on it. And so when we watch this 1:18:57.880 --> 1:19:02.760 in twenty twenty six, we long for any kind of 1:19:02.760 --> 1:19:07.559 commentary on it, or for someone for Rita to be like, well, 1:19:07.920 --> 1:19:10.439 you know, I don't like it didn't have to be 1:19:10.520 --> 1:19:14.880 this big on the nose moral lesson or anything like 1:19:14.880 --> 1:19:19.960 that necessarily, but some nuance to to that situation. 1:19:20.160 --> 1:19:25.240 But I guess I didn't even need Rita to recognize 1:19:25.240 --> 1:19:27.599 what was going on. I just, I guess wanted some 1:19:27.640 --> 1:19:32.760 indication that the movie recognized that what had happened was 1:19:33.400 --> 1:19:35.680 not either of their faults, because I think that there 1:19:35.800 --> 1:19:39.760 is something too, like one of the shades of gray 1:19:39.800 --> 1:19:43.160 in this movie that you don't usually see is that often, 1:19:43.240 --> 1:19:49.640 because women are socially conditioned to accept this kind of behavior, generationally, 1:19:49.680 --> 1:19:52.360 they're not able to show up for people that you 1:19:52.400 --> 1:19:56.080 would think they could exact or that they should, And that, like, 1:19:56.160 --> 1:19:59.160 that's so clear in Rita and Viv's dynamic is that 1:19:59.680 --> 1:20:03.720 vivi and has also just been assaulted with a very 1:20:03.720 --> 1:20:06.599 different dynamic. But we know, based on what we've seen 1:20:06.680 --> 1:20:10.320 this entire movie, that there's no one in her life 1:20:10.360 --> 1:20:14.519 who would be able to recognize that or even talk 1:20:14.600 --> 1:20:16.640 to her about it in a way that would be 1:20:17.760 --> 1:20:21.880 constructive for her or like help her whatever it is 1:20:21.880 --> 1:20:25.960 she needs to process there or around her body. There's 1:20:26.040 --> 1:20:28.080 just no one there who can help her with it. 1:20:28.720 --> 1:20:32.920 And we see that because it's like this horrific. That's 1:20:32.920 --> 1:20:34.920 why I was like, I do feel like that moment 1:20:35.720 --> 1:20:40.760 where I'm not and I totally understand for any number 1:20:40.800 --> 1:20:43.120 of reasons that that's the moment in the movie where 1:20:43.160 --> 1:20:44.840 a lot of people are going to check out. I 1:20:44.880 --> 1:20:48.000 do think it had narrative importance and that we cut 1:20:48.040 --> 1:20:51.360 directly from that moment to Viv saying I don't I. 1:20:51.400 --> 1:20:53.120 Want to risk reductions anymore. 1:20:53.439 --> 1:20:57.479 Yeah, is so clear and intentional that like and is 1:20:57.520 --> 1:21:02.080 like a very you know, like a kid's conception of like, 1:21:02.320 --> 1:21:04.599 I want to get rid of quote unquote the problem. 1:21:04.640 --> 1:21:08.240 I want to get rid of what I'm perceiving makes 1:21:08.280 --> 1:21:11.840 people treat me poorly and how they didn't treat me 1:21:11.920 --> 1:21:12.599 a year ago. 1:21:13.000 --> 1:21:15.639 I do think the breast reduction is almost the movie's 1:21:15.640 --> 1:21:19.040 attempt to kind of comment on the situation, because I 1:21:19.080 --> 1:21:20.880 was thinking about like how it could have done so, 1:21:21.040 --> 1:21:24.960 and I guess instead of Viv forgiving Rita as she 1:21:25.040 --> 1:21:27.080 does in the movie, like maybe she could oh have 1:21:27.160 --> 1:21:28.800 a moment of like, oh no, you know, I actually 1:21:28.880 --> 1:21:31.000 like understand where you're coming from, or like or have 1:21:31.160 --> 1:21:33.400 like a change of opinion kind of after Rita says 1:21:33.400 --> 1:21:37.080 that thing in Pig Latin about hunger. But I do 1:21:37.200 --> 1:21:39.560 kind of see the breast reduction as the movie commenting 1:21:39.600 --> 1:21:42.600 on the ways that yeah, like a childlike way to 1:21:42.600 --> 1:21:46.200 comment on female sexuality. I mean, like I've taken the 1:21:46.200 --> 1:21:48.519 movie to really the biggest theme I've extracted from it 1:21:48.560 --> 1:21:52.160 is this idea of like learned womanhood or like compulsorily 1:21:52.360 --> 1:21:54.720 compulsory womanhood, and like this, you know, you get to 1:21:54.760 --> 1:21:57.080 a certain age and you almost have you typically have 1:21:57.200 --> 1:22:00.799 like an older woman mentor you through being a woman, 1:22:00.920 --> 1:22:02.760 and that can mean like, oh, learning how to do 1:22:02.840 --> 1:22:06.120 makeup and like you know, stepping your way into kind 1:22:06.160 --> 1:22:08.760 of like patriarchal society. And I do think that this 1:22:08.840 --> 1:22:11.160 movie is very much about that, And I don't know 1:22:11.200 --> 1:22:13.200 what the ending is necessarily trying to say about it. 1:22:13.200 --> 1:22:15.519 I don't think that she steps out of it at all. Yeah, 1:22:15.520 --> 1:22:18.240 but I do think I did feel that commentary strongly 1:22:18.280 --> 1:22:19.599 through it. And I guess like that's why I didn't 1:22:19.640 --> 1:22:21.640 check out at that moment either, because I, to me, 1:22:21.720 --> 1:22:23.880 it like really piqued my interest. I was intrigued. I 1:22:23.880 --> 1:22:26.000 also think Marisa Tomei's acting in the scene with the 1:22:26.080 --> 1:22:29.800 dad is incredible, Like the wins on her face and 1:22:29.840 --> 1:22:32.080 the amount of like complicated emotions that just like run 1:22:32.120 --> 1:22:36.680 across it in like a split second is unbelievable. But yeah, no, 1:22:36.840 --> 1:22:40.160 I feel complicated about the scene but I actually appreciated 1:22:40.160 --> 1:22:42.800 the movie for attempting to go there. I just think 1:22:42.840 --> 1:22:44.000 it could Yeah, it could have been a little more 1:22:44.040 --> 1:22:47.679 explicit for sure about its own yeah feelings about it. 1:22:47.680 --> 1:22:48.680 It's so interesting. 1:22:48.720 --> 1:22:52.720 I feel like we've talked about this on past episodes. 1:22:53.040 --> 1:22:55.880 Our episode on The Women is coming to mine. But 1:22:56.400 --> 1:23:02.160 how so many past generations of women and like mothers 1:23:02.360 --> 1:23:07.519 or mother figures or just older women teaching younger women 1:23:07.720 --> 1:23:13.160 how to navigate the world. So many of those conversations 1:23:13.200 --> 1:23:17.600 and lessons are just like, this is men, this is 1:23:17.600 --> 1:23:20.960 how men are. Here's how to do your best to 1:23:21.040 --> 1:23:23.240 navigate it. Because there's a scene in The Women where 1:23:23.680 --> 1:23:26.920 her mother's just like, well, yeah, all men cheat. Rather 1:23:26.960 --> 1:23:31.200 than like being like they shouldn't do that and we 1:23:31.240 --> 1:23:33.679 should hold them accountable, it's more just like, well that's 1:23:33.680 --> 1:23:37.120 gonna happen. Is here's how to navigate it, or like learn. 1:23:36.920 --> 1:23:38.760 How to like don't wear headphones at night, you know 1:23:38.800 --> 1:23:41.240 what I mean? Yeah, yeah, exactly. My mom, I remember 1:23:41.400 --> 1:23:43.920 when I was coming up that age, she started being like, 1:23:44.000 --> 1:23:46.320 don't sit with your legs open like that, because I 1:23:46.320 --> 1:23:48.080 would sit in my panting with my legs wide open. 1:23:48.080 --> 1:23:50.160 Because I was a kid and that's all I knew, 1:23:50.200 --> 1:23:52.880 and I didn't really you know, kids are in some 1:23:52.920 --> 1:23:55.560 ways genderless in a way, and she would tell me that, 1:23:55.600 --> 1:23:57.519 and she wouldn't explain why. And so for years I 1:23:57.520 --> 1:24:00.000 didn't understand why I couldn't sit with my legs open. 1:24:00.360 --> 1:24:01.960 And then even when I came of age, she'd be like, 1:24:02.000 --> 1:24:03.640 don't forget of a beer bottle, like in front of 1:24:03.640 --> 1:24:05.439 your older family members. Like it just it was just 1:24:05.479 --> 1:24:08.280 it's so many like learned gender dynamics that you're like, yeah, 1:24:08.280 --> 1:24:09.000 but why. 1:24:09.880 --> 1:24:11.920 Right, And it's like if you ask them, but why. 1:24:12.800 --> 1:24:15.280 I think this like kind of one of the scarier 1:24:15.360 --> 1:24:18.920 moments of growing up is realizing that probably your mom 1:24:18.960 --> 1:24:23.080 doesn't have a very coached answer. It just is. And 1:24:23.160 --> 1:24:26.200 like that's so much about this movie. Something I think 1:24:26.360 --> 1:24:29.599 this movie does really well in a way that like, 1:24:29.960 --> 1:24:32.559 I don't know, I want to rewatch Diary of a 1:24:32.600 --> 1:24:36.439 Teenage Girl now and we definitely should cover it. So good, 1:24:36.600 --> 1:24:40.000 it's really good. I love Mary al Hiller, But like, 1:24:40.680 --> 1:24:43.439 I think something this movie does really well that a 1:24:43.600 --> 1:24:47.240 lot of movies about coming of age across the gender 1:24:47.280 --> 1:24:52.839 spectrum don't is like presents a lot of very scary 1:24:53.400 --> 1:24:57.479 behavior from men that you would see in your everyday life. 1:24:58.280 --> 1:25:01.639 And like again, I am gonna take the tuba music 1:25:01.720 --> 1:25:04.240 and the accordion out of the because that, to me 1:25:04.400 --> 1:25:07.360 is like this movie's biggest issue as the accordion music. 1:25:08.160 --> 1:25:12.160 But like creepy neighbor guy who is you know, like 1:25:12.320 --> 1:25:15.920 who a teenage girl might be attracted to, who will 1:25:15.960 --> 1:25:20.280 do absolutely nothing to do anything but take advantage of them. 1:25:20.640 --> 1:25:24.200 This is a person who we like probably conjure someone 1:25:24.280 --> 1:25:29.320 to mind for everybody, whether it's a father, uncle, like 1:25:29.680 --> 1:25:31.600 male relative, usually. 1:25:31.360 --> 1:25:34.080 Friend's older brother's friend of always. 1:25:33.680 --> 1:25:37.400 It's yeah, I mean, like I feel like and it 1:25:37.520 --> 1:25:40.800 seems I almost want to like I don't know, I 1:25:40.840 --> 1:25:43.040 don't I don't know very much about Alan Arkin as 1:25:43.120 --> 1:25:45.800 a person, but I think it is really cool that 1:25:45.880 --> 1:25:50.280 he took this part on because it is like intentionally 1:25:50.400 --> 1:25:53.519 in opposition with what his public image is in a 1:25:53.520 --> 1:25:56.280 way that I think is like really smart, Like we 1:25:56.360 --> 1:26:01.519 are socially conditioned to like Alan Arkin, and then he 1:26:01.680 --> 1:26:06.080 does these horrific things and I think it really does 1:26:06.120 --> 1:26:09.160 like do a good job of putting you in the 1:26:09.240 --> 1:26:11.559 character shoes of like, oh I thought he was this 1:26:11.640 --> 1:26:15.680 person and he's not. What do I do, and I 1:26:15.760 --> 1:26:18.280 just wish that it was a little murkier at the 1:26:18.479 --> 1:26:21.760 end of like what do I do, because it felt like, well, 1:26:21.800 --> 1:26:23.519 I'm gonna do this, you know. 1:26:24.040 --> 1:26:25.559 Yeah. I think that's why I love the movie, Like 1:26:25.560 --> 1:26:27.599 it is a bit of a It lets you sit 1:26:27.720 --> 1:26:30.640 with discomfort, which I find really fascinating, But then I 1:26:30.680 --> 1:26:33.880 also find it challenging because it's generically like a romp 1:26:34.040 --> 1:26:35.720 kind of it's a bit of a sex romp, and 1:26:35.760 --> 1:26:38.680 that's complicated and that is confusing as a viewer, but 1:26:38.720 --> 1:26:40.479 it's like it I think it just gets me thinking, 1:26:40.479 --> 1:26:41.719 which I appreciate about. 1:26:41.520 --> 1:26:43.960 It, which is a lot of like seventies movies too, 1:26:44.160 --> 1:26:46.360 is like sex romps that when you want that are 1:26:46.439 --> 1:26:49.439 kind of dubious when you watch them back totally. But 1:26:49.720 --> 1:26:51.840 I also feel like this is and maybe this would 1:26:51.840 --> 1:26:57.599 be overthinking, but like especially because that assault of Rita 1:26:57.720 --> 1:27:00.880 happens at the very end of the movie pretty much, 1:27:01.280 --> 1:27:04.439 very very late and already I mean I didn't know 1:27:04.520 --> 1:27:07.160 that happened, and I was very taken off guard when 1:27:07.200 --> 1:27:11.400 it does because to that point, I noted several times 1:27:11.439 --> 1:27:15.800 of like, this family has very poor physical boundaries with 1:27:15.840 --> 1:27:20.400 each other, and maybe that's me being a Republican or something. 1:27:20.680 --> 1:27:23.599 But I was like, this family is naked around each 1:27:23.640 --> 1:27:27.879 other so much, so much, I think specifically with Rita, 1:27:28.160 --> 1:27:31.160 who is like every family has a different level of 1:27:31.360 --> 1:27:33.599 naked that they are at the house. I get it, 1:27:33.640 --> 1:27:38.280 like with your siblings, with your family that everyone's it varies, right. 1:27:38.680 --> 1:27:41.360 I think that that reads a lot differently once we 1:27:41.479 --> 1:27:43.920 know the kind of guy the father is at the end. 1:27:44.280 --> 1:27:48.040 But what bumped me more than anything was Rita returning 1:27:48.080 --> 1:27:54.120 to this extended family dynamic and just like that cartoony thing. 1:27:54.720 --> 1:27:56.960 I felt like it undercut a lot of stuff that 1:27:57.000 --> 1:27:59.360 happens with her later in the movie where I'm just 1:27:59.360 --> 1:28:04.040 like what world are we in that? Like a thirty 1:28:04.120 --> 1:28:07.599 year old cousin is like oops, I'm naked in front 1:28:07.640 --> 1:28:11.479 of everybody all the time. Like that that confused me, 1:28:11.760 --> 1:28:13.680 Like some early Riada moments. 1:28:13.439 --> 1:28:16.879 It's the extended familiness of it that's a little like okay, 1:28:17.080 --> 1:28:19.320 uh yeah yeah. I think that's like where the farce 1:28:19.400 --> 1:28:21.160 comes in. Like she does feel like a character out 1:28:21.160 --> 1:28:23.160 of like a Monty Pipe, like I don't know something 1:28:23.760 --> 1:28:26.679 something of that era. For sure. It's interesting though maybe 1:28:26.680 --> 1:28:28.880 the movie is trying to kind of like critique that 1:28:29.000 --> 1:28:32.639 archetype when it brings it into the more realism element 1:28:32.640 --> 1:28:35.120 of it at the end, maybe not gracefully, but I'm like, 1:28:35.160 --> 1:28:36.080 I'm curious to know. 1:28:36.479 --> 1:28:37.679 I feel really curious. 1:28:37.800 --> 1:28:39.880 Yeah, whether she's introduced as a farce or like a 1:28:39.960 --> 1:28:42.200 romp character and then ends up being a little more 1:28:42.240 --> 1:28:43.040 like three dimensional. 1:28:43.320 --> 1:28:46.000 Yeah, I don't know, though, I like drilled myself into 1:28:46.120 --> 1:28:49.320 a hole trying to understand how Rita is characterized at 1:28:49.360 --> 1:28:52.240 the beginning versus where her character goes at the end, 1:28:52.280 --> 1:28:55.680 because I'm like, are we supposed to And I do 1:28:55.760 --> 1:28:57.200 think I was over thinking it, but I was like, 1:28:57.240 --> 1:28:58.559 are we supposed to think? 1:28:59.120 --> 1:28:59.680 Like be? 1:29:00.000 --> 1:29:04.439 Because this woman is comfortable enough around her family to 1:29:04.640 --> 1:29:09.120 be like seen that that is what makes the uncle 1:29:09.160 --> 1:29:13.160 feel entitled to her later Like I but I just 1:29:13.200 --> 1:29:15.680 like could not quite make one plus one equal to 1:29:16.080 --> 1:29:19.040 with her, like with the through line of Rita's behavior, 1:29:19.080 --> 1:29:22.599 specifically VIVI, I could track almost everyone else I could track, 1:29:22.680 --> 1:29:25.240 but Rita kind of confused me at different points. 1:29:25.520 --> 1:29:29.360 I think it's like the confused line between revolution exploitation, right, 1:29:29.400 --> 1:29:32.080 Like I think we talk a lot in my podcast 1:29:32.080 --> 1:29:34.200 about like the twenty fifteen era. I felt like when 1:29:34.200 --> 1:29:35.479 I was in high school there was like a mini 1:29:35.479 --> 1:29:38.519 sexual revolution with like that whole SlutWalk era of like yeah, 1:29:38.600 --> 1:29:41.439 I'm a slut, you know what I mean? And coming 1:29:41.439 --> 1:29:44.160 of age during that era was really complicated because I 1:29:44.160 --> 1:29:45.920 feel like that and like the kind of Indie Slea's 1:29:45.960 --> 1:29:48.720 like Terry Richardson era was this time where women were 1:29:48.760 --> 1:29:51.160 feeling sexually liberated. They were feeling like, oh, it's socially 1:29:51.160 --> 1:29:53.040 acceptable now to like have sex. I'm not going to 1:29:53.080 --> 1:29:55.960 get called a slut or be oustracized socially. But men 1:29:56.160 --> 1:29:58.960 then on the other side of things really taking advantage 1:29:58.960 --> 1:30:00.760 of that and being like, oh, well, per now is 1:30:00.800 --> 1:30:02.800 my opportunity, you know what I mean, Like, oh, you 1:30:02.840 --> 1:30:04.600 want to be a slut, Like, let's. 1:30:04.320 --> 1:30:06.800 Go, and now they can call themselves feminist while doing it. 1:30:06.840 --> 1:30:08.879 What a fun period of time that way, Well. 1:30:08.880 --> 1:30:11.400 Yeah, exactly, And like in Diary of a Teenage Girl 1:30:11.560 --> 1:30:14.400 once again bring it up, but like, actually, I don't 1:30:14.400 --> 1:30:16.400 want to spoil the movie, but yeah, I think that's 1:30:16.600 --> 1:30:19.360 that's a major element of it as well. Well. 1:30:19.840 --> 1:30:25.000 Just going back to how Rita is characterized and the 1:30:25.160 --> 1:30:28.160 kind of all over the place nature of that when 1:30:28.200 --> 1:30:33.840 she's first introduced and like running down the highway and 1:30:34.479 --> 1:30:38.559 flashes the truck driver who's about to run her over 1:30:38.760 --> 1:30:42.439 and where to believe would have completely plowed into her 1:30:42.760 --> 1:30:46.000 had she not flashed him. Yeah, but she flashes. She 1:30:46.080 --> 1:30:49.000 opens up her gown and flashes him. And then when 1:30:49.040 --> 1:30:54.240 he stops, she's like she's doing this, like oh, she's 1:30:54.320 --> 1:30:58.040 like making sex mone sounds as she's like running and 1:30:58.080 --> 1:31:00.519 getting into his truck, and I'm just like, what is 1:31:01.720 --> 1:31:03.000 what is going on with her? 1:31:03.200 --> 1:31:05.919 It's very like she's crazy, right. 1:31:05.720 --> 1:31:09.960 And then when she like when well, okay, why does 1:31:10.080 --> 1:31:14.160 Vivian burst into the bathroom when she thinks that it's 1:31:14.200 --> 1:31:17.559 her brother in there potentially masturbating in the shower, So 1:31:17.600 --> 1:31:21.400 she like barges in, it's not her brother, it is 1:31:22.120 --> 1:31:25.880 her cousin in the shower. But then Rita opens the 1:31:25.920 --> 1:31:28.760 door and she's just like, boobs, here they are, here 1:31:28.840 --> 1:31:29.360 are mine? 1:31:29.880 --> 1:31:33.840 She Rita does feel like some of my friends sometimes, 1:31:33.880 --> 1:31:35.519 Like maybe that's why I love her, because I'm like 1:31:35.560 --> 1:31:38.040 she is just like so some of my some people 1:31:38.080 --> 1:31:38.760 I know in my life. 1:31:39.439 --> 1:31:42.559 Yeah, I always like, I don't know, I'm overthinking because 1:31:42.600 --> 1:31:44.320 I know that we we're all like kind of projecting 1:31:44.320 --> 1:31:46.519 our experiences not to her, but I was like, this 1:31:46.520 --> 1:31:49.280 would make sense to be in maybe a college aged character. 1:31:49.439 --> 1:31:51.479 It is wild to be that she's twenty nine years 1:31:51.479 --> 1:31:53.799 old doing this, where like I think of like older 1:31:53.880 --> 1:31:57.479 cousins who like and also being that older cousin. I 1:31:57.640 --> 1:32:00.439 was not a rita. I was not really be quite 1:32:00.520 --> 1:32:03.479 hot enough to be doing what she's doing. But but 1:32:03.520 --> 1:32:07.000 the whole idea of like having a sort of like 1:32:07.080 --> 1:32:09.960 younger sibling dynamic of like, oh, I actually have this 1:32:10.000 --> 1:32:12.679 information and I and like getting to feel like you're 1:32:12.720 --> 1:32:16.479 the expert in like how to be a person, especially 1:32:16.560 --> 1:32:20.040 when you're younger, is like kind of narcotic and exciting, 1:32:20.160 --> 1:32:23.320 and even if you're often giving kind of like toxic, 1:32:23.840 --> 1:32:26.559 you know, like here's how you appease the male gaze, 1:32:26.560 --> 1:32:28.160 which is sort of what she's doing with like, oh, 1:32:28.200 --> 1:32:29.960 you have a mustache. You gotta get rid of your mustache. 1:32:30.000 --> 1:32:34.000 And I vividly remember my mom in middle school being like, 1:32:34.560 --> 1:32:37.800 we need to talk about your mustache. And it's fine, 1:32:37.880 --> 1:32:40.519 every woman in the family has one, but it's gotta go. 1:32:41.360 --> 1:32:41.559 Oh. 1:32:41.600 --> 1:32:45.880 I was getting bikini wax age thirteen, like because I 1:32:45.960 --> 1:32:50.799 was in dance school. Oh oh, you know, yeah, it sucked. 1:32:51.120 --> 1:32:54.680 And then and then you have the brother been you know, 1:32:54.880 --> 1:32:59.120 using an outdated term for intersex people when he finds 1:32:59.160 --> 1:33:03.639 out that has a mustache that she's bleaching, and just like, yeah, 1:33:04.120 --> 1:33:07.040 the way that Ben talks about his sister's. 1:33:06.640 --> 1:33:10.439 Body is but it's so clearly learned from his dad. Yeah, 1:33:10.479 --> 1:33:13.000 Like that is almost like because that's why I wish 1:33:13.200 --> 1:33:15.559 that there was a little more specificity with how old 1:33:15.680 --> 1:33:19.479 other characters are, because I'm assuming that Ben is an 1:33:19.560 --> 1:33:22.240 older teenager, which doesn't totally let him off the hook, 1:33:22.280 --> 1:33:24.680 but like, I think we're very much given the context 1:33:24.680 --> 1:33:29.200 for why he feels so entitled to be horrible to 1:33:29.240 --> 1:33:32.720 his sister. It's all he's seen and just like this, 1:33:32.800 --> 1:33:34.679 and I know that this was like to some extent 1:33:35.200 --> 1:33:38.160 based on Tamar Jenkins' is like being raised by a 1:33:38.240 --> 1:33:41.360 sort of single dad like this in a nomadic way 1:33:41.880 --> 1:33:45.080 that like, it's just such a horror situation to me 1:33:45.280 --> 1:33:50.320 to be raised by a man who does not really 1:33:50.400 --> 1:33:55.960 have any desire to understand you or any woman, and 1:33:56.000 --> 1:33:59.240 you're surrounded only by other young men who are going 1:33:59.320 --> 1:34:02.599 to absorb that act like she just has no ally 1:34:02.880 --> 1:34:06.160 and it's like there is a version. I think there's 1:34:06.200 --> 1:34:10.840 a version of me that like wants her and her 1:34:10.880 --> 1:34:15.200 older cousin to form a powerful bond in a way 1:34:15.240 --> 1:34:17.080 that I think if there's a version of this movie 1:34:17.080 --> 1:34:19.880 where if they bond more, it pay that, like last 1:34:19.920 --> 1:34:24.880 Beat is powerful in a different way. But also Rita 1:34:25.040 --> 1:34:29.679 is twice her age. They're not peers. It makes sense 1:34:29.720 --> 1:34:32.719 that they're not connecting. There are completely different stages of life, 1:34:32.920 --> 1:34:35.120 and so it's like viv is given sort of this 1:34:35.240 --> 1:34:39.519 like maybe tease of maybe this is someone that you 1:34:39.560 --> 1:34:42.120 can connect with, but ultimately like she can't for all 1:34:42.120 --> 1:34:42.920 these reasons. 1:34:43.600 --> 1:34:46.880 Yeah. Can I also say we haven't mentioned one character, 1:34:46.920 --> 1:34:50.080 which is the littlest brother, who I've tried to make 1:34:50.120 --> 1:34:53.160 a tally in my life now of like unprecocious children 1:34:53.200 --> 1:34:55.439 in movies because it's very few and four between. And 1:34:55.479 --> 1:34:57.040 I thought this kid did a great job. And that 1:34:57.439 --> 1:35:00.000 kid's kind of annoying in a good way, like that's 1:35:00.080 --> 1:35:02.719 little boy. Yeah, And he's just there. 1:35:03.080 --> 1:35:06.120 He's mostly just there. He has a few moments in 1:35:06.160 --> 1:35:09.519 the movie here and there where, for example, he opens 1:35:09.600 --> 1:35:15.200 the oven and there's a dead cat inside that he's. 1:35:15.120 --> 1:35:19.040 And he just holds it up like yeah, hes a chicken. 1:35:19.280 --> 1:35:22.600 He has a little he has he has some lucidity 1:35:22.840 --> 1:35:25.800 around the issue of class, which is one of the 1:35:25.800 --> 1:35:28.240 things I think this movie does really well in a 1:35:28.400 --> 1:35:33.799 very period specific way of like class is a huge 1:35:34.680 --> 1:35:37.840 thing in this movie that every character, even I think 1:35:37.880 --> 1:35:41.120 like the youngest kid bringing it up in this very 1:35:41.200 --> 1:35:45.479 like matter of fact way felt so real in a 1:35:45.479 --> 1:35:47.960 way that like, to your point, Maya could have been 1:35:48.040 --> 1:35:51.800 really precocious. Like I mean, it feels out, but like 1:35:51.800 --> 1:35:54.240 a little out Abigail, I like always think of Abigail 1:35:54.240 --> 1:35:57.599 Breslin in most of her early roles when I think 1:35:57.600 --> 1:36:00.920 of this thing, but that he he brings it up 1:36:01.000 --> 1:36:03.960 kind of matter of factly and they're all, you know, 1:36:04.520 --> 1:36:06.760 I think it presents class in this kind of cool 1:36:06.800 --> 1:36:08.840 way of like, well, yeah, what the hell do you do? 1:36:09.040 --> 1:36:13.320 And and that my head immediately is like, well, they're 1:36:13.320 --> 1:36:16.800 probably hanging out because of like proximity to family and 1:36:16.840 --> 1:36:19.840 school systems, right, And he literally states that he's like 1:36:20.400 --> 1:36:23.880 it's it's the school system, that's why. And like it 1:36:24.040 --> 1:36:30.120 I can understand from Alan Arkins point, however, misguided, and 1:36:30.800 --> 1:36:33.599 I think like he is flopping as a father and 1:36:33.960 --> 1:36:37.120 it's not totally his fault, but it is a large 1:36:37.160 --> 1:36:40.559 part his fault. And I think that murkiness is kind 1:36:40.560 --> 1:36:45.000 of portrayed really well, but that like what do you 1:36:45.080 --> 1:36:47.479 do in that situation? You want your kids to have 1:36:47.520 --> 1:36:53.200 some continuity in their life. But also he is being selfish, 1:36:53.240 --> 1:36:54.439 like it's so. 1:36:54.760 --> 1:36:57.360 And like interpolating his kids into the finances like and 1:36:57.439 --> 1:37:01.479 not not really protecting them from from anything. Right by 1:37:01.520 --> 1:37:07.200 way of yeah, class struggle, I guess. 1:37:04.960 --> 1:37:09.400 It feels like he's still kind of striving in this 1:37:09.560 --> 1:37:13.800 like very American way where I don't know, I mean, 1:37:14.479 --> 1:37:17.599 the kids, it's hard to know, and maybe the kids 1:37:17.600 --> 1:37:20.600 are just too young to really know, but it's like 1:37:20.840 --> 1:37:23.720 they want stability more than they want to be in 1:37:23.760 --> 1:37:24.639 Beverly Hills. 1:37:24.840 --> 1:37:27.080 It seems like right totally. 1:37:27.640 --> 1:37:32.320 I read an interesting piece about how this movie is 1:37:32.360 --> 1:37:39.120 in conversation with the effects of gentrification. It's called Gentrification 1:37:39.280 --> 1:37:42.400 and the Slums of Beverly Hills, but it talks about 1:37:42.439 --> 1:37:49.400 how even though Beverly Hills is associated with extreme wealth, 1:37:50.280 --> 1:37:56.559 there has been income diversity within that neighborhood, perhaps more 1:37:56.600 --> 1:37:59.719 so in the nineteen seventies when this movie is set 1:38:00.080 --> 1:38:05.360 and present day, but there has been a range of 1:38:05.760 --> 1:38:10.360 people and families with different economic backgrounds living in Beverly Hills. 1:38:11.160 --> 1:38:15.800 But one of the many problems with gentrification is obviously 1:38:15.960 --> 1:38:20.120 that it tends to eliminate economic diversity within a neighborhood 1:38:20.120 --> 1:38:23.680 and prices out and displaces people. And so it kind 1:38:23.680 --> 1:38:26.519 of goes into that. We can link the piece, but. 1:38:26.840 --> 1:38:28.920 No, Yeah, one of the earliest thoughts I had when 1:38:28.920 --> 1:38:30.360 I watched it was that it reminded me of the 1:38:30.400 --> 1:38:33.559 Florida Project, just by virtue of like the intense income 1:38:34.000 --> 1:38:38.280 disparity between like these kind of pastel like motels. Obviously, 1:38:38.280 --> 1:38:40.639 this motel is a different function than the Florida Project, 1:38:40.720 --> 1:38:42.960 but like the ones in that being juxtaposed to like 1:38:42.960 --> 1:38:47.800 Disney World or Disney Disney World. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and 1:38:47.840 --> 1:38:50.560 this being juxtaposed to yeah, like the the upper echelons 1:38:50.600 --> 1:38:52.879 of like La and Yeah, I thought that was interesting. 1:38:53.360 --> 1:38:58.599 Yeah. I guess it's just like economic diversity anywhere is 1:38:58.720 --> 1:39:02.080 kind of flat. And I think that, like people still 1:39:02.080 --> 1:39:04.960 talk about Los Angeles, New York about this on a 1:39:04.960 --> 1:39:07.040 whole to this day in a way that is not 1:39:07.120 --> 1:39:11.200 intentional but kind of ends up serving the interests of 1:39:11.240 --> 1:39:14.760 the very powerful. Where if you act like economic diversity 1:39:14.800 --> 1:39:18.120 does not exist. It is almost like a self fulfilling prophecy, 1:39:18.640 --> 1:39:23.400 and this family is kind of caught in that kind 1:39:23.479 --> 1:39:26.599 of net where the world kind of wants to refuse 1:39:26.680 --> 1:39:29.800 that they exist because it's not what we're told this 1:39:29.880 --> 1:39:32.400 area is supposed to be. And so they're slowly getting 1:39:32.800 --> 1:39:35.400 edged out and we don't really have a ton of 1:39:35.400 --> 1:39:38.960 con Oh. The other thing that I saw referenced, but 1:39:39.240 --> 1:39:41.400 I guess I maybe missed it in my viewings of 1:39:41.439 --> 1:39:43.599 the movie is that part of why he's struggling as 1:39:43.600 --> 1:39:46.439 a car salesman is because there is an it is 1:39:46.479 --> 1:39:48.000 like a sevent yes oil crisis. 1:39:48.160 --> 1:39:50.080 Oh sure, yeah, the oil crisis. 1:39:50.280 --> 1:39:53.599 And again the shades of gray that are introduced around 1:39:53.600 --> 1:39:56.160 class and around the dad. It's not like he is 1:39:56.240 --> 1:40:00.680 like the worst. He is a lazy asshole, like he 1:40:00.840 --> 1:40:05.479 is going to work, but he is not. I mean, 1:40:05.520 --> 1:40:08.080 I think, if anything, he's not like kind of willing 1:40:08.120 --> 1:40:12.120 to accept that his situation has changed in a way 1:40:12.160 --> 1:40:16.040 that's harming his family. Like he's in denial that things 1:40:16.080 --> 1:40:18.639 are changing and that he's and also that he's aging. 1:40:18.840 --> 1:40:22.880 And like all that scene with the brothers I thought 1:40:23.040 --> 1:40:25.320 was really it's the only scene I think you get 1:40:25.320 --> 1:40:28.559 with just the brothers, and I really liked it where 1:40:29.000 --> 1:40:32.200 it just made I do wish that again. I'm like, 1:40:32.600 --> 1:40:35.080 I'm being a Republican, but I'm like, let's put some 1:40:35.160 --> 1:40:37.799 clothes on these kids. I get it, it's the seventies. 1:40:37.800 --> 1:40:39.800 They probably didn't have air conditioning, but let's get some 1:40:39.840 --> 1:40:41.160 clothes on these children, please. 1:40:42.280 --> 1:40:44.360 They're Oh the scene where they're eating tricks. 1:40:44.320 --> 1:40:47.400 I'm like, family, come on. But anyways, I grew up 1:40:47.439 --> 1:40:50.679 at a closed family, so maybe this is just the same. 1:40:51.000 --> 1:40:53.759 I have a lot of friends who were definitely looser 1:40:53.840 --> 1:40:54.559 with the boundaries. 1:40:54.800 --> 1:40:57.920 Yes, I was like, my cousins were in a naked family. 1:40:58.720 --> 1:41:00.000 Yes they're they're naked family. 1:41:00.080 --> 1:41:02.200 Out there, they're a naked family. But it's like, but 1:41:02.280 --> 1:41:05.559 there days a creep anyways. But the scene with the 1:41:05.560 --> 1:41:10.679 brothers where the younger brother, Ricky is kind of coming 1:41:10.720 --> 1:41:12.880 to terms with the fact that he has an old dad, 1:41:13.360 --> 1:41:16.600 and that is like something that is it's an undercurrent 1:41:16.720 --> 1:41:19.439 theme in the movie that I know is like related 1:41:19.439 --> 1:41:22.720 to Tamara Jenkins's life that I just thought was so 1:41:23.840 --> 1:41:27.040 well done. I had never seen that like shown in 1:41:27.160 --> 1:41:30.400 such a specific way, and I think it's it was 1:41:30.479 --> 1:41:33.240 a really sweet moment with the Brothers where the brother 1:41:33.400 --> 1:41:36.240 where David Cromwell's has to be like, yeah. 1:41:36.120 --> 1:41:37.519 Man, that's old as shit. 1:41:38.000 --> 1:41:41.000 Yeah, and he's like no, because that means my parent 1:41:41.080 --> 1:41:42.920 will die, which is like the scariest thing in the 1:41:42.920 --> 1:41:47.240 world when you're you know, eight, nine, ten. I don't 1:41:47.280 --> 1:41:47.800 know how old. 1:41:47.880 --> 1:41:49.439 I grew up with an old dad, and every day 1:41:49.479 --> 1:41:52.200 I resent him for deciding to pull me out at 1:41:52.280 --> 1:41:56.160 forty five or forty six, like come on, come on, man, 1:41:56.439 --> 1:41:58.000 you're so old. I want all the time in the 1:41:58.000 --> 1:42:00.439 world with you, sir. But you know, and now he's 1:42:00.439 --> 1:42:02.160 like a senior citizen. God love him. I hope he 1:42:02.160 --> 1:42:06.360 doesn't listen to with podcasts my dad. But it definitely 1:42:06.360 --> 1:42:08.680 there's psychological effects for sure to being a child with 1:42:08.720 --> 1:42:10.960 an old father. Yeah. 1:42:11.120 --> 1:42:14.599 Yeah, I've never seen it done quite in that way 1:42:14.680 --> 1:42:17.240 where it like wasn't tragic and there wasn't an immediate 1:42:17.320 --> 1:42:21.160 consequence to it. It wasn't like, oh no, Alan Arkin 1:42:21.880 --> 1:42:24.679 is dead. Even though it's so hard to not compare 1:42:24.760 --> 1:42:28.759 this movie just because it is such a sun Dance movie, 1:42:29.600 --> 1:42:31.920 I was thinking a lot about Little Miss Sunshine when 1:42:31.960 --> 1:42:34.840 I was watching this movie because it's Alan Arkin in 1:42:34.880 --> 1:42:37.160 a movie that was like made in a lab to 1:42:37.479 --> 1:42:39.519 succeed at Sundance in a motel. 1:42:39.600 --> 1:42:43.120 He's always in the motel. He's always give and what's 1:42:43.120 --> 1:42:43.679 gonna happen? 1:42:44.080 --> 1:42:47.240 And it's maybe want to rewatch Little Miss Sunshine, which 1:42:47.280 --> 1:42:51.400 I think is a far a complicated family presented in 1:42:51.439 --> 1:42:56.160 a far more less complicated way. Like Alan Arkin couldn't 1:42:56.200 --> 1:42:59.160 be a more different character, but he is in a 1:42:59.439 --> 1:43:02.040 motel with children a lot. 1:43:03.280 --> 1:43:08.240 Yeah, I want to go back to this scene where 1:43:08.400 --> 1:43:14.800 Vivian is in the cosmetic surgeon's office, and I want 1:43:14.800 --> 1:43:20.080 to talk about it because we see a shot of 1:43:20.400 --> 1:43:26.680 the character's bear breasts. Now again, the character is like 1:43:27.160 --> 1:43:32.559 fourteen or fifteen. Natasha Leone was eighteen or nineteen when 1:43:32.560 --> 1:43:34.840 this movie was being shot and when it came out 1:43:35.000 --> 1:43:37.200 and stuff. And also I'm not even sure if those 1:43:37.240 --> 1:43:39.240 are her breasts that might be a body double. 1:43:40.000 --> 1:43:43.760 They're not as far as I know from what I understood. 1:43:44.240 --> 1:43:47.960 And this like that she's wearing, I mean, they're fake. 1:43:48.240 --> 1:43:51.080 They're silicone breasts that she's wearing during the movie. Those 1:43:51.120 --> 1:43:55.799 are not her natural brass and something that I again 1:43:55.920 --> 1:44:00.080 just is a marker of both times. But I I 1:44:00.120 --> 1:44:04.439 listened to a few retrospective interviews. To my understanding, the 1:44:04.479 --> 1:44:07.000 reason that we get those headless women of Hollywood shots 1:44:07.040 --> 1:44:10.400 is because their body doubles, so like you couldn't reveal 1:44:10.479 --> 1:44:14.000 Natasha Leone's head in that shot or Marissa Tomaine's head 1:44:14.040 --> 1:44:19.160 because it's not her, but that Just reading and listening 1:44:19.160 --> 1:44:23.559 to Natasha Leone and the director talk about this, I 1:44:23.640 --> 1:44:25.840 was like, Oh my gosh, I am glad that we 1:44:25.880 --> 1:44:30.400 are living in an era where intimacy coordinators are available, 1:44:30.760 --> 1:44:34.160 because there were. Even though Natasha Leone I think was 1:44:34.240 --> 1:44:36.720 an adult when this was being shot, the way that 1:44:36.760 --> 1:44:39.120 she talked about it was like it just sounded like 1:44:39.640 --> 1:44:43.120 it might have been nice to have an intimacy coordinator 1:44:43.560 --> 1:44:46.240 as an option, just because they're talking about very like 1:44:46.360 --> 1:44:50.120 indie film running gunning shots. I think one thing that 1:44:50.200 --> 1:44:52.680 specifically stuck out to me that I heard her talk 1:44:52.720 --> 1:44:55.880 about in nineteen ninety eight and twenty thirteen that seemed 1:44:55.920 --> 1:44:59.000 to really stick with her was the vibrator scene and 1:44:59.200 --> 1:45:03.120 feeling little out of her depth with like not really 1:45:03.120 --> 1:45:06.479 I mean also probably because it is like a period 1:45:06.479 --> 1:45:12.040 appropriate prop, but like that she she wasn't really coached 1:45:12.080 --> 1:45:14.479 on what she was supposed to have been doing. She 1:45:14.560 --> 1:45:18.720 felt uncomfortable. Everyone was a little frustrated with her for 1:45:18.840 --> 1:45:21.439 like not quote unquote doing it right. But also she 1:45:21.640 --> 1:45:25.760 was like, very recently, she's still a teenager, Like, I 1:45:25.800 --> 1:45:29.280 don't I wouldn't have known what to how to execute 1:45:29.320 --> 1:45:32.000 that scene as a teenager, especially with like no guidance. 1:45:32.240 --> 1:45:34.960 And there were a few anecdotes about the making of 1:45:35.000 --> 1:45:38.080 this movie that isn't an indictment of the movie, but 1:45:38.080 --> 1:45:41.200 more just an observation about the time where it was like, yeah, 1:45:41.280 --> 1:45:44.920 that is a very young actor to put a very 1:45:44.960 --> 1:45:49.040 big scene, like a sexually charged scene on and not 1:45:49.120 --> 1:45:53.120 have anyone there to be present for them before, during, 1:45:53.240 --> 1:45:56.240 or after, and which it sounds like, I mean, in 1:45:56.360 --> 1:45:58.599 nineteen ninety eight, I'm not at all surprised to hear it. 1:45:58.600 --> 1:46:01.040 It didn't sound like Nindashelione was upset about it, but 1:46:01.080 --> 1:46:03.720 it clearly stuck with her because it came up in 1:46:03.760 --> 1:46:06.839 almost every interview about this movie that she did across 1:46:06.920 --> 1:46:07.679 twenty years. 1:46:09.439 --> 1:46:12.519 Right, So there's that, And then going back to that 1:46:12.600 --> 1:46:16.880 scene in the plastic surgeon's office, we see this character's 1:46:17.439 --> 1:46:22.920 bear breasts and even though the body double was of age, 1:46:23.800 --> 1:46:27.519 the character is fourteen or fifteen, and we should not 1:46:27.560 --> 1:46:31.760 be normalizing seeing nudity of a character that is a 1:46:31.800 --> 1:46:34.599 minor on screen. I've said it before, I'll say it again. 1:46:35.320 --> 1:46:37.280 That shot did not need to be there. You can 1:46:37.439 --> 1:46:41.040 imply it's already implied what the surgeon is doing. We 1:46:41.080 --> 1:46:44.720 don't need to we don't need to see actual nudity 1:46:44.920 --> 1:46:46.599 of a child. 1:46:47.040 --> 1:46:51.160 So there's a lot of that entirey of a teenage girl. Oh, 1:46:51.720 --> 1:46:54.479 which is fascinating because it came out almost twenty years later. 1:46:54.720 --> 1:46:57.240 Yeah, yeah, So just wanted to point that out. 1:46:57.360 --> 1:47:00.639 Yeah, I didn't know what there were a few, especially 1:47:00.680 --> 1:47:05.400 like I know that it is like capital tees the 1:47:05.400 --> 1:47:10.320 theme that we're talking about breasts, and there's certain I agree, Like, 1:47:10.400 --> 1:47:13.240 I don't know. I would not have included that shot 1:47:13.400 --> 1:47:17.280 if I were tomorrow Jenkins, And I wonder if present 1:47:17.360 --> 1:47:21.160 day tomorrow Jenkins would include it. I struggle with it 1:47:21.200 --> 1:47:24.479 when it's like, I don't know, it's like, at what 1:47:24.560 --> 1:47:28.320 point are you directing a movie that you are assuming 1:47:28.400 --> 1:47:32.120 bad actors will be consuming Like that's a tough one. 1:47:32.200 --> 1:47:34.960 I do wonder that with the portrayal of nudity, is 1:47:34.960 --> 1:47:39.840 like are you censoring yourself for the safety of any 1:47:40.040 --> 1:47:41.800 like why are you not doing it? I guess this 1:47:41.840 --> 1:47:43.720 is my question is like are you not doing it 1:47:43.800 --> 1:47:47.200 for the safety of the actor. Are you not doing 1:47:47.200 --> 1:47:50.040 it because you were concerned that a bad faith actor 1:47:50.160 --> 1:47:52.160 is going to find your movie? Which I think is 1:47:52.200 --> 1:47:54.760 definitely true here because there were certain scenes I was 1:47:54.800 --> 1:47:58.040 just looking for commentary on and I was directed to 1:47:58.080 --> 1:48:02.639 poorn websites. Really yeah, to pour specifically around the scenes 1:48:02.680 --> 1:48:05.640 of like Kevin Corrigan feeling Natasha leone up and like 1:48:06.000 --> 1:48:09.160 the more sexually charged scenes of this are definitely present 1:48:09.400 --> 1:48:13.599 on por in sites, which I found out completely by accident. 1:48:14.120 --> 1:48:16.479 And so I think it is like a very it. 1:48:16.920 --> 1:48:18.760 I don't know. I don't disagree with you, Caitlin, Like 1:48:18.800 --> 1:48:22.160 I think that it is like I cannot think of 1:48:22.200 --> 1:48:25.920 a good reason to include it, but it's depressing the 1:48:26.040 --> 1:48:28.320 reasons that I jump to to why that is. 1:48:28.760 --> 1:48:31.719 Yeah, I do think it's a slippery slope when factoring 1:48:31.760 --> 1:48:33.760 and like like a director having to factor in like 1:48:33.800 --> 1:48:37.519 the worst faith interpretation or like worst faith audience of 1:48:37.560 --> 1:48:39.240 their movie. Like I do think that that can go 1:48:39.360 --> 1:48:41.679 in negative directions or that can be like a massive 1:48:41.760 --> 1:48:44.559 hindrance to art. Not that I agree that necessarily these 1:48:44.560 --> 1:48:47.120 boobs should have been in it, these boobs. 1:48:47.760 --> 1:48:49.520 But whose boobs. 1:48:49.560 --> 1:48:52.040 It's a difficult conversation because you don't know how far 1:48:52.080 --> 1:48:54.320 that can go in terms of like like every like 1:48:54.320 --> 1:48:56.400 if your movie's intended for a mass audience, it's like 1:48:56.720 --> 1:48:58.800 it can become kind of focus groupy or become kind 1:48:58.800 --> 1:49:01.720 of So, yeah, it's a tough one. That's a that's 1:49:01.760 --> 1:49:03.599 a difficult question to answer. 1:49:03.920 --> 1:49:06.240 I guess Yeah, in the case of this movie, I 1:49:06.240 --> 1:49:09.760 think it is like not necessary and a lot of 1:49:09.800 --> 1:49:11.960 the it felt very like of the time, And by 1:49:12.000 --> 1:49:14.280 that I guess I mean of both times that every 1:49:14.280 --> 1:49:17.160 opportunity we had to cut to bare breasts we did. 1:49:17.720 --> 1:49:20.960 And you know, like that's not to say that we 1:49:21.120 --> 1:49:24.519 don't see I mean we see a lot of like 1:49:24.800 --> 1:49:27.200 people not wearing clothes in this movie. Again, we appear 1:49:27.280 --> 1:49:31.280 to be in a naked family, and it's like not 1:49:31.320 --> 1:49:35.680 like we don't see the boys in this family, you know, 1:49:35.800 --> 1:49:38.960 presented in like they're not wearing clothes for a lot 1:49:39.000 --> 1:49:41.439 of the movie. But I also didn't like that. 1:49:41.920 --> 1:49:44.760 I also know, definitely not maybe I just really find 1:49:44.800 --> 1:49:47.759 that depiction to be particularly sexual, Like I think I think. 1:49:48.280 --> 1:49:49.920 That's the thing is like it's not sexualized. 1:49:50.000 --> 1:49:52.960 That's like, yeah, I think that to me didn't feel 1:49:53.120 --> 1:49:55.040 inappropriate necessarily or just I feel like a lot of 1:49:55.040 --> 1:49:57.160 movies around the time has like that's just what kids 1:49:57.200 --> 1:49:59.439 to me sometimes where it seemed like it's like, you know, 1:49:59.439 --> 1:50:02.559 they're in a a hot climate. But yeah, no, I agree. 1:50:02.600 --> 1:50:05.200 I feel like the issue with the Natasha the unboob 1:50:06.120 --> 1:50:08.559 is that like it feels tacked on because it almost 1:50:08.560 --> 1:50:10.760 feels like a reveal because the whole movie they've been 1:50:10.760 --> 1:50:13.800 discussing her boobs, and when the boobs are revealed, it's like, okay, 1:50:13.840 --> 1:50:15.719 so this is kind of like an unveiling in a way, 1:50:15.920 --> 1:50:18.639 and that's where it becomes kind of like, eh, like yeah, yeah, 1:50:18.640 --> 1:50:19.400 it isn't. 1:50:19.160 --> 1:50:21.320 Like why yeah, I didn't know what the function of 1:50:21.360 --> 1:50:24.160 it was even supposed to have been. It just felt 1:50:24.160 --> 1:50:27.840 a little huh, I don't know, it felt edgy in 1:50:27.880 --> 1:50:30.160 a way that like, but it's like, I don't want 1:50:30.200 --> 1:50:35.240 to refer to like depicting breasts as edgy. It shouldn't 1:50:35.240 --> 1:50:37.400 be viewed that way. But again, it's it's I think 1:50:37.439 --> 1:50:41.400 that breasts are generally framed in a sexualized way in 1:50:41.439 --> 1:50:45.040 this movie sometimes, and I think more often than not 1:50:45.120 --> 1:50:47.720 with commentary. But in the case of this shot that 1:50:47.720 --> 1:50:49.680 you're talking about, Kaitlin, I don't think that, Like, what 1:50:49.880 --> 1:50:53.040 is the commentary? It seems like it's just doing it. Yeah. 1:50:53.120 --> 1:50:57.920 Yeah, again, this is an underage teenager. To me, there's 1:50:58.000 --> 1:51:01.040 like no gray area there, Like we just should never 1:51:01.120 --> 1:51:04.599 see that on screen. Yeah, I agree. 1:51:04.640 --> 1:51:07.280 I mean it's like, and I guess what I'm more 1:51:07.320 --> 1:51:10.360 talking about is like, because we know these are adult actors, 1:51:10.800 --> 1:51:13.960 what do we do with like implied age versus actor 1:51:14.000 --> 1:51:16.200 age and how do people internalize that? Like we've talked 1:51:16.200 --> 1:51:18.559 about this so much on the show. Yeah, I think 1:51:18.640 --> 1:51:23.280 we all agree that the shot is not necessary. But yeah, 1:51:23.320 --> 1:51:24.679 it is like a really complicated thing. 1:51:25.000 --> 1:51:28.759 Yeah, does anyone have anything else they want to talk about? 1:51:29.479 --> 1:51:34.000 I just wrote down Robert Roger Ebert made a comment 1:51:34.080 --> 1:51:36.640 on this movie that in Beverly Hill's money is not 1:51:36.840 --> 1:51:43.639 the only currency, and I thought, true, well observed King, 1:51:44.200 --> 1:51:46.760 well observed class and sex those are the two things 1:51:46.760 --> 1:51:47.800 that's happening in this movie. 1:51:49.080 --> 1:51:54.000 When you accidentally said, Robert, just now, Robert Redford produced 1:51:54.000 --> 1:51:58.160 this movie because of like the Sun Dance connection. And 1:51:58.320 --> 1:52:01.720 Tamar Jenkins did she write the script? During this Sun 1:52:01.840 --> 1:52:04.639 Dance the Lab, Yeah, the Lab Writer's Program. 1:52:04.720 --> 1:52:08.960 Yeah. Yeah, so rip Robert Redford, I know, r ip 1:52:09.240 --> 1:52:10.840 Roger Ebert. 1:52:10.640 --> 1:52:17.360 Yeah, an Rip Alan and Carl Reiner and Jessica Walster 1:52:17.479 --> 1:52:21.400 and so many people gone too soon and I'll just 1:52:21.400 --> 1:52:26.920 put that in there and Robert anyways, Yes, it's okay. 1:52:26.960 --> 1:52:30.400 The movie does pass the Bechdel test. Yes, quite a bit. 1:52:30.479 --> 1:52:30.719 Wow. 1:52:31.200 --> 1:52:35.719 It is mostly between Vivian and Rita, and they're talking 1:52:35.760 --> 1:52:38.800 about all kinds of stuff. They're talking about their relationship 1:52:38.880 --> 1:52:42.960 to each other, and they're speaking in multiple languages, passing 1:52:42.960 --> 1:52:43.679 the Bechdel test. 1:52:43.840 --> 1:52:47.400 Yes, And even though there's not a ton of those 1:52:47.400 --> 1:52:49.519 are the two main characters, and maybe kind of the 1:52:49.600 --> 1:52:52.280 Jessica Walter character as well, are the main women in 1:52:52.320 --> 1:52:55.280 the movie. I think that, you know whatever, the Bechdel 1:52:55.360 --> 1:52:58.479 test is a metric that we've talked about forever that, 1:52:58.720 --> 1:53:01.600 like the absence of women, I think is very intentional 1:53:01.720 --> 1:53:04.760 in this movie. I think it is like intended to 1:53:04.920 --> 1:53:08.200 further leave viv kind of out to see. 1:53:08.400 --> 1:53:13.400 I agree. But even so, we have many conversations, yes, 1:53:13.600 --> 1:53:21.000 between women and girls. Vivian and Reader are talking about vibrators, breasts, tampons, 1:53:21.040 --> 1:53:23.400 bleaching their mustaches. 1:53:22.920 --> 1:53:25.679 Mean a Savari's like, get a breast reduction. 1:53:27.200 --> 1:53:30.160 Doris is like, here's an enormous pad. 1:53:31.320 --> 1:53:34.240 Now that we're listing off the conversations, it doesn't sound 1:53:34.320 --> 1:53:36.519 as great, but they happen. 1:53:36.680 --> 1:53:39.120 No, I'm like very I was coming into this being like, 1:53:39.160 --> 1:53:42.040 oh man, my movie's gonna fail. The beck built, but 1:53:42.120 --> 1:53:44.720 I'm very impressed by it. 1:53:44.840 --> 1:53:48.320 Passes doesn't have to be a positive conversation to pass. 1:53:48.920 --> 1:53:50.759 Yeah, I'm wow cool. 1:53:50.960 --> 1:53:53.720 But what about the nipple scale though, the Bechdel Cast 1:53:53.800 --> 1:53:56.040 nipple scale, where we rate the movie on a scale 1:53:56.040 --> 1:53:59.360 of zero to five nipples, examining it through an intersectional 1:53:59.360 --> 1:54:03.240 feminist lene, Oh god, really tricky. I don't really know 1:54:03.280 --> 1:54:08.000 what to do here, because it's it is exploring, you know, 1:54:08.200 --> 1:54:13.519 what it is to be an adolescent girl, lower middle class, 1:54:13.640 --> 1:54:17.560 adolescent white girl in the LA area in the seventies, 1:54:18.120 --> 1:54:22.920 existing in a society that is constantly leering at women, 1:54:23.040 --> 1:54:30.440 objectifying women. Rape culture is abound, and how she grapples 1:54:30.479 --> 1:54:33.840 with that, and how she tries to again exercise some 1:54:33.880 --> 1:54:37.280 control over that or try to take some power back. 1:54:37.360 --> 1:54:40.400 And so I think the movie is doing really interesting 1:54:40.440 --> 1:54:44.800 things regarding that. But for other things. As we've talked about. 1:54:44.840 --> 1:54:47.880 I don't think it's not clear enough where it lands, 1:54:47.960 --> 1:54:51.720 or there's not quite enough commentary on the situation to 1:54:51.840 --> 1:54:54.880 my satisfaction. So I think I'll give it a split 1:54:54.880 --> 1:54:58.240 down the middle two point five nipples, just to make 1:54:58.280 --> 1:55:01.240 things simple. I'm going to give them all to came Jenkins. 1:55:01.640 --> 1:55:02.160 Is it Tamera? 1:55:02.640 --> 1:55:03.040 I don't know. 1:55:03.120 --> 1:55:04.040 I think it's tomorrow. 1:55:04.280 --> 1:55:08.200 It is tomorrow, Tomorrow, wrong, Okay, I got scared tomorrow. Okay, 1:55:08.560 --> 1:55:10.760 I'm gonna I'm tempted to go three and a half, 1:55:10.800 --> 1:55:13.920 which maybe feels a little high, but I ugh, I 1:55:13.920 --> 1:55:15.800 don't know. I'm between a three and a three and 1:55:15.840 --> 1:55:19.440 a half. I think that there is a lot of 1:55:19.960 --> 1:55:24.920 stuff in this movie that feels unresolved, but never means 1:55:24.960 --> 1:55:28.920 spirited and never I feel and again this is me 1:55:29.520 --> 1:55:32.040 judging by vibes, but I do think that this this 1:55:32.440 --> 1:55:36.840 movie is searching for something, and maybe it's because it 1:55:36.920 --> 1:55:39.720 is like a first time filmmaker making a very personal story. 1:55:40.400 --> 1:55:44.080 I will say the last scene in this movie, the voiceover, 1:55:44.200 --> 1:55:46.440 the way that the movie ends, I don't like, and 1:55:46.720 --> 1:55:50.680 it feels like it's kind of directly fighting with the 1:55:50.720 --> 1:55:55.520 really complicated themes that the movie is fighting, it's totally dissonant. 1:55:55.800 --> 1:55:58.880 The character of Rita never quite comes together for me. 1:55:59.200 --> 1:56:02.360 I feel like Rita and bodies that tonal dissonance pretty 1:56:02.520 --> 1:56:07.040 squarely for me. But I also think that it's finding 1:56:07.080 --> 1:56:10.240 these dynamics that I haven't quite seen before. I think, like, 1:56:10.280 --> 1:56:14.080 the lower middle class is such a weird specific thing 1:56:14.120 --> 1:56:17.720 that barely even exists now but did at one time, 1:56:17.840 --> 1:56:22.080 and is this kind of precarious, delusional place to live 1:56:22.120 --> 1:56:25.200 in that is captured really well in this movie. And 1:56:25.680 --> 1:56:29.160 the you know, coming of age and to assist women's 1:56:29.200 --> 1:56:32.800 body is it is horrifying in a way that I 1:56:32.880 --> 1:56:37.360 think is also well captured without it becoming you know, 1:56:37.480 --> 1:56:40.640 probably this premise would be a horror movie now, and 1:56:40.800 --> 1:56:45.680 I don't. Like I'm very sick of any woman's body 1:56:45.760 --> 1:56:48.680 and any marginalized body becoming the side of horror, and 1:56:48.720 --> 1:56:52.120 this movie doesn't do that. It's just presenting like it 1:56:52.240 --> 1:56:57.080 just feels like shit to be told that you're doing 1:56:57.120 --> 1:57:00.000 it wrong all the time and also be constantly surprised 1:57:00.160 --> 1:57:02.520 by your body and have no one to turn to, Like, 1:57:02.560 --> 1:57:06.280 I think it captures that feeling very well. And yeah, 1:57:06.360 --> 1:57:08.240 we talked about all of it. I think I'm going 1:57:08.280 --> 1:57:10.720 to go three. I'm going to go three nips. I'll 1:57:10.720 --> 1:57:15.320 give one to Tamara Jenkins, one to Natasha Leone, and 1:57:15.480 --> 1:57:17.160 one to Rita Moreno, why the hell not? 1:57:17.600 --> 1:57:20.120 Why the hell not? Maya? How about you? 1:57:21.080 --> 1:57:25.480 Okay, maybe I'll deign to go three point five. I think, okay, 1:57:25.840 --> 1:57:28.720 I'm knocking the one point five off because I think 1:57:28.760 --> 1:57:32.440 that the movie has themes and plot that can't seem 1:57:32.480 --> 1:57:35.640 to agree with one another, and that sometimes the plot 1:57:35.720 --> 1:57:39.440 undermines the intended themes of the film, like you're saying, 1:57:39.480 --> 1:57:42.040 you're both saying, like it's kind of unresolved, it's searching, 1:57:42.560 --> 1:57:48.360 and sometimes that can lead to somewhat harmful depictions that 1:57:48.600 --> 1:57:50.880 the movie seems to be trying to do the opposite of, 1:57:51.400 --> 1:57:54.160 or trying to say something in the realm of the opposite. 1:57:54.680 --> 1:57:57.520 But I do really appreciate, and what's always stuck struck 1:57:57.680 --> 1:58:00.160 me is where this movie is willing to go. I 1:58:00.160 --> 1:58:04.880 think it's pretty unprecedented in its depictions of female sexuality 1:58:04.920 --> 1:58:09.400 and underage sexuality, which is really complicated and really difficult 1:58:09.440 --> 1:58:12.920 to depict. And I always appreciate when a movie is 1:58:12.960 --> 1:58:14.880 willing to do something difficult and is willing to make 1:58:14.920 --> 1:58:17.800 me uncomfortable because that makes me think. And I think 1:58:17.880 --> 1:58:19.880 we've talked about this for at this point such a 1:58:19.880 --> 1:58:23.760 long so many hours that it's like, I appreciate one 1:58:23.800 --> 1:58:26.680 of movies. Yeah, willing to raise questions even though maybe 1:58:26.680 --> 1:58:29.480 it can't necessarily answer all of them. Sure, I also 1:58:29.520 --> 1:58:32.040 just I'm a little maybe I have a libertarian film spirit, 1:58:32.080 --> 1:58:33.960 but I love a movie that I'm like, don't tell 1:58:33.960 --> 1:58:35.560 me what to do, don't tell me how to think. 1:58:35.600 --> 1:58:37.880 And I think I love a movie that doesn't tell 1:58:37.880 --> 1:58:39.840 me either of those things. And so this movie made 1:58:39.920 --> 1:58:44.520 us all Republicans and libertarians. This is a Republican libertarian 1:58:44.680 --> 1:58:45.280 zoom call. 1:58:46.120 --> 1:58:48.600 Republicans love to be told how to think. Don't worry, 1:58:48.920 --> 1:58:49.920 they actually really love. 1:58:50.200 --> 1:58:53.240 Yeah, but maybe I do too. Yeah, but I appreciate 1:58:53.280 --> 1:58:55.600 almost at the movie isn't trying to tell me what 1:58:55.720 --> 1:58:58.520 to think about what it's portraying, even though I think 1:58:58.520 --> 1:59:01.680 the ending is a little bit and I don't know, 1:59:01.760 --> 1:59:04.320 like a definitely like that. Half stars for Marissa Tome, 1:59:04.520 --> 1:59:07.160 who has my heart and I love her. I think 1:59:07.160 --> 1:59:09.000 she's so funny and weird in this even if her 1:59:09.040 --> 1:59:11.000 character is a hot mess. 1:59:12.640 --> 1:59:15.760 Yes, well, thank you so much for joining us again. 1:59:15.960 --> 1:59:17.480 Come back anytime. 1:59:18.480 --> 1:59:20.520 Thanks guys of course. 1:59:20.320 --> 1:59:24.400 Real quick. Where can people follow you? Check out your stuff? 1:59:24.560 --> 1:59:25.120 Plug away? 1:59:25.920 --> 1:59:29.160 You can find me on YouTube under the channel Broi Dationanel. 1:59:29.240 --> 1:59:31.760 You can find me on Instagram at Browie Underscore Dationel. 1:59:31.920 --> 1:59:34.520 I have a podcast called Rehash and I actually wrote 1:59:34.520 --> 1:59:36.640 a book about Eternal Sunshine at the Spotless Mind, which 1:59:36.640 --> 1:59:39.640 I've been really bad at promoting because I'm new to that. 1:59:39.840 --> 1:59:41.720 So yeah, I wrote that. You can find it wherever 1:59:41.720 --> 1:59:44.680 you get your books or on ig publishing dot com. 1:59:44.920 --> 1:59:49.240 That's amazing, Thank you, And you can follow us on 1:59:49.480 --> 1:59:53.200 Instagram at Bechdel Cast. You can subscribe to our Patreon 1:59:53.280 --> 1:59:57.520 aka Matreon at patreon dot com slash Bechdel Cast, where 1:59:57.560 --> 2:00:00.400 you get two bonus episodes every single month, always based 2:00:00.440 --> 2:00:07.280 on an incredible, amazing genius theme. And Jamie and our 2:00:07.320 --> 2:00:11.200 guest Maya had to leave right before this outro, so 2:00:11.240 --> 2:00:17.240 it's just me signing off goodbye. 2:00:17.280 --> 2:00:20.640 The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia, hosted and 2:00:20.760 --> 2:00:22.960 produced by me Jamie Loftus and. 2:00:23.000 --> 2:00:26.760 Me Caitlyn Dorante. The podcast is also produced by Sophie 2:00:26.800 --> 2:00:27.920 Lichtermann and. 2:00:27.960 --> 2:00:30.280 Edited by Caitlyn Dorante. Ever heard of them? 2:00:30.800 --> 2:00:34.240 That's me and our logo and merch and all of 2:00:34.240 --> 2:00:38.000 our artwork in fact are designed by Jamie Loftus ever 2:00:38.040 --> 2:00:38.480 heard of her? 2:00:38.680 --> 2:00:41.680 Oh My God? And our theme song, by the way, 2:00:41.800 --> 2:00:43.600 was composed by Mike Kaplan. 2:00:43.440 --> 2:00:46.520 With vocals by Katherine Vosskrasinski. 2:00:46.120 --> 2:00:48.960 Iconic and a special thanks to the one and only 2:00:49.280 --> 2:00:50.560 Aristotle Ascevero. 2:00:51.120 --> 2:00:54.920 For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree Slash 2:00:55.000 --> 2:00:55.720 Bechdel Cast