WEBVTT - Students Sue for a Civics Education

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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<v Speaker 1>day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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<v Speaker 1>important legal news of the day. You can find more

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<v Speaker 1>episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple podcast, SoundCloud

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<v Speaker 1>and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. Fourteen public school

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<v Speaker 1>students and parents are suing the state of Rhode Island

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<v Speaker 1>claiming that the state has failed to carry out its

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<v Speaker 1>constitutional responsibility to prepare students to be good citizens. Their

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<v Speaker 1>real aim goes far beyond the federal courts in Rhode

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<v Speaker 1>Island to the Supreme Court of the United States and

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<v Speaker 1>a forty five year old ruling joining me is Casey Johnson,

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<v Speaker 1>professor at Brooklyn College. Casey tell us a little more

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<v Speaker 1>about the lawsuit, all right. This is a lawsuit that

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<v Speaker 1>was filed in late November against basically the political leadership

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<v Speaker 1>of Rhode Island and the state Board of Education, arguing

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<v Speaker 1>that the State of Rhode Island had failed public school

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<v Speaker 1>students as a whole, and in particular horror students and

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<v Speaker 1>students of color, by failing to provide them a sufficient

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<v Speaker 1>education in civics, basic understanding of American government of state government.

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<v Speaker 1>How politics and public policy operated, and the lawsuits sites

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<v Speaker 1>a variety of statistics and surveys suggesting that really appallingly

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<v Speaker 1>low percentages of public school students no basic understanding of

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<v Speaker 1>data about how the American government operates and how our

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<v Speaker 1>system operates. And their argument, which is which is a stretch,

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<v Speaker 1>is that this failure by the state violates the constitutional

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<v Speaker 1>right to do process of these students because the state

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<v Speaker 1>is failing to train them as sufficient citizens and as

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<v Speaker 1>prospective in particular jurors and voters. How many states hold

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<v Speaker 1>there are local schools accountable for teaching civics and where

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<v Speaker 1>is the line between what's acceptable and what's not right

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<v Speaker 1>That it's a great question, and it's something that has

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<v Speaker 1>has shifted a lot in the last twenty five or

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<v Speaker 1>thirty years. So if you went back, say to the

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<v Speaker 1>nineteen sixties or nineteen seventies, civics instruction was a pretty

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<v Speaker 1>common element of most public school curriculum around the country.

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<v Speaker 1>It has essentially evaporated at the high school level in

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<v Speaker 1>the last two generations, along with geography, which is a

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<v Speaker 1>related field which also gets cited in the lawsuit. And

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<v Speaker 1>the sense is that this is kind of boring material

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<v Speaker 1>and that students already know this material and we need

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<v Speaker 1>to broaden their curricular reach. So the lawsuit is correct

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<v Speaker 1>in its argument that relatively few states are requiring this

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<v Speaker 1>and relatively few students are actually encountering enriched civics education.

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<v Speaker 1>The lead lawyer in the case argued a similar argument

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<v Speaker 1>against the State of New York, but there he argued

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<v Speaker 1>under state law in the state constitution and in a

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<v Speaker 1>very sort of different framework than the Rhode Island lawsuits.

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<v Speaker 1>The lawyers in this case are already talking about the

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<v Speaker 1>Supreme in this case possibly going to the Supreme Court.

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<v Speaker 1>So to give some context, tell us about the case

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<v Speaker 1>of San Antonio v. Rodriguez from forty five years ago.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, so this is a night in early nineteen seventies.

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<v Speaker 1>Case has designed in nineteen seventy three, and it dealt

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<v Speaker 1>with an issue which which on paper is tangential to

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<v Speaker 1>the issue that's before before this lawsuit, and a dealt

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<v Speaker 1>with the question of unequal funding in public schools. Public schools,

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<v Speaker 1>for the most part in the United States are funded

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<v Speaker 1>through property taxes, and so you know, if you're from

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<v Speaker 1>a rich community, the school the schools are getting more

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<v Speaker 1>than if you're coming from a poor community, and the

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<v Speaker 1>plaintiffs in the San Antonio case argued that this disparity

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<v Speaker 1>in funding led to such a disparity in the quality

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<v Speaker 1>of the education that their rights as citizens perspective citizens

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<v Speaker 1>and their fundamental right to education was violated, and the

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<v Speaker 1>court ruled five to four basically that they could put

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<v Speaker 1>this question. The majority in the rodrique As case said

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<v Speaker 1>that even if we assume there's a fundamental right to

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<v Speaker 1>equality education, and they're not quite willing to assume that

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<v Speaker 1>that's simply because these schools had disparate levels of funding

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't mean that the kids who went to the poorer schools,

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<v Speaker 1>we're not getting a sufficiently quality education. So what this

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<v Speaker 1>law student tries to do is to say, look, we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to document in this one area civics education, that

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<v Speaker 1>these students from poorer schools are in fact not getting

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<v Speaker 1>equality education. Because I think everyone would agree that in

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<v Speaker 1>an ideal world, public school students would understand basic civics

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<v Speaker 1>And because we can document that these students aren't getting

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<v Speaker 1>equality education, the court should go back, we visit the

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<v Speaker 1>Rodriquez president and say that courts can dictate two states

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<v Speaker 1>that they have to provide a sufficient level, minimum level

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<v Speaker 1>of quality to all students. So this is this case

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<v Speaker 1>is really an uphill battle. It's a upsift battle, would

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<v Speaker 1>be an understatement. Um, they're trying to think of what's

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<v Speaker 1>worse than an upfield battle in a legal case, right,

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<v Speaker 1>because you know the seventy three decision is a five

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<v Speaker 1>forward decision with with the descent written by Justice Marshall. Um.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, this is a much much more conservative court

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<v Speaker 1>that we now have. So you would have to imagine

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<v Speaker 1>Justice Kavanaugh, Chief Justice Roberts adopting the thinking of Justice

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<v Speaker 1>Marshall and descent and applying it to a majority, which

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<v Speaker 1>you know, which is difficult to do. That's set. Lawsuits

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<v Speaker 1>often have multiple purposes, right, and so one purpose is

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<v Speaker 1>to try to get this to the Supreme Court and

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<v Speaker 1>try to force the Supreme Court to address this issue.

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<v Speaker 1>Before it does that, it would have to go through

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<v Speaker 1>the First Circuit, which is a much more liberal court.

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<v Speaker 1>And there certainly are judges on the First Circuit that

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<v Speaker 1>I could see as somewhat sympathetic to this to this viewpoint.

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<v Speaker 1>But even if they lose in court, you know, part

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<v Speaker 1>of the goal here seems to be a to shame

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<v Speaker 1>the leadership of the state of Rhode Island to actually,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, begin to address these questions and be to

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<v Speaker 1>try to educate the public that issues that most people

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<v Speaker 1>just assume are being taught in the public schools are

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<v Speaker 1>in fact not being taught. And to the extent that

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<v Speaker 1>you know that we're discussing this this case now, they

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<v Speaker 1>are accomplishing at least that educational goal with the lawsuit,

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<v Speaker 1>even if the litigation itself remains Yeah, very very much

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<v Speaker 1>a long shot. Thanks so much. It is a fascinating

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<v Speaker 1>lawsuit and an important issue. That's Casey Johnson. He's a

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<v Speaker 1>professor at Brooklyn College. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg

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<v Speaker 1>Law Podcast. You can subscribe and listen to the show

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<v Speaker 1>on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm June Brosso. This is Bloomberg. Ye