WEBVTT - Liz Phair's Soberish 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:24.716 Pushkin from her gritty nineteen ninety three debut album, Exile 0:00:24.796 --> 0:00:28.036 in Guyville, Liz Phair helped lay the foundation for a 0:00:28.196 --> 0:00:37.356 generation of fierce independent artists. My confidences shook I don't 0:00:37.396 --> 0:00:43.636 know where. Early in her career, she pushed for freedom 0:00:43.676 --> 0:00:48.396 and creative control, especially for female artists, something she's finally 0:00:48.436 --> 0:00:52.516 seen become the norm in the industry. That progress inspired 0:00:52.556 --> 0:00:55.876 her new record, Soberish, which has her reuniting with the 0:00:55.916 --> 0:01:00.556 producer of her first two albums, Brad One. On today's episode, 0:01:00.796 --> 0:01:02.956 Who's Held Them talks to Liz Fair about how her 0:01:02.956 --> 0:01:06.996 approach to recording music isn't a technical one. She relies 0:01:06.996 --> 0:01:09.956 in the unique way she hears music and her background 0:01:10.036 --> 0:01:12.956 as a visual artist. She also talks about how her 0:01:12.956 --> 0:01:17.196 first ever creative aspiration was to write a classic Christmas Carol. 0:01:21.036 --> 0:01:23.796 This is broken record liner notes for the digital age. 0:01:23.916 --> 0:01:33.156 I'm justin Richmond. Here's Bruce Headlam with Liz Phair. So 0:01:33.236 --> 0:01:35.556 this is your first album since you wrote your terrific 0:01:35.596 --> 0:01:38.956 book Horror Stories. Thank you. Yes, it is my first 0:01:38.956 --> 0:01:43.316 album in ten years. Actually, did writing the book change 0:01:43.316 --> 0:01:47.436 how you write music? Did affect it at all? I 0:01:47.556 --> 0:01:50.276 don't know that it did I feel like writing music 0:01:50.356 --> 0:01:53.716 affected how I wrote the book. I think there's only 0:01:53.916 --> 0:01:58.156 so many words I care to fit into three minutes, 0:01:58.716 --> 0:02:03.116 and if anything, I might have left words out of 0:02:03.116 --> 0:02:05.316 the music to some extent. I mean you can see 0:02:05.356 --> 0:02:07.836 bursts of it at the end of songs. I'll sort 0:02:07.876 --> 0:02:10.556 of like start getting really already at the ends of songs. 0:02:10.676 --> 0:02:14.836 But if anything, it freed me up to think about 0:02:14.916 --> 0:02:20.636 sound design and production more. And I definitely did feel 0:02:20.676 --> 0:02:24.316 the arc of the album was important this time, almost 0:02:24.356 --> 0:02:26.796 in a way that I haven't felt since Guyville. That 0:02:26.956 --> 0:02:30.156 the story I was telling of sort of a breakup 0:02:30.196 --> 0:02:33.756 of one long relationship in the first half, and then 0:02:34.276 --> 0:02:37.316 the reemergence of my single self in the second half, 0:02:37.436 --> 0:02:41.276 sort of dating two different guys. That's how I see 0:02:41.316 --> 0:02:44.596 the album, and then like the third song from the 0:02:44.676 --> 0:02:47.196 end or fourth song from the end, I regret or 0:02:47.236 --> 0:02:51.516 a missing of that original relationship. So I don't know 0:02:51.516 --> 0:02:52.916 that it did. I think a lot of people are 0:02:52.956 --> 0:02:55.956 curious about that, and I think it's more the other 0:02:55.956 --> 0:02:59.276 way around. I think the reason I broke core stories 0:02:59.276 --> 0:03:03.116 into short stories was because of the way that I 0:03:03.116 --> 0:03:05.076 write a song, the way that I could only I 0:03:05.116 --> 0:03:10.236 couldn't quite go for the full book arc. Each chapter 0:03:10.436 --> 0:03:14.956 feels to me like an expanded song with many more 0:03:15.036 --> 0:03:18.916 detours and many more tangents. Your album's full of great characters, 0:03:18.956 --> 0:03:21.676 AS's your book. One I do want to ask you 0:03:21.716 --> 0:03:23.276 about off the Top, and I think you released it 0:03:23.356 --> 0:03:27.596 last year, was Halu. That is a joyful song that 0:03:27.876 --> 0:03:32.196 sprang up spontaneously. It was actually an entirely different song 0:03:32.516 --> 0:03:35.516 when I brought it into the studio and at a 0:03:35.636 --> 0:03:41.276 very specific mandate for so Brush, I knew exactly where 0:03:41.316 --> 0:03:43.596 I wanted to end up on the other side of it, 0:03:43.996 --> 0:03:46.116 but I had no idea how to get there. And 0:03:46.716 --> 0:03:49.596 Brad Wood, who was the producer, who was the producer 0:03:49.596 --> 0:03:54.036 on my original three records, although White Chocolate Space Egg 0:03:54.116 --> 0:03:57.276 has Scotlet as well, he produced so Brush and so 0:03:57.396 --> 0:04:01.676 working together after not working together for gosh twenty years 0:04:02.116 --> 0:04:06.196 something like that was an interesting reacquaintance too, to kind 0:04:06.196 --> 0:04:09.476 of like get back into a rhythm with him. Halo 0:04:09.596 --> 0:04:13.636 was a very different song it was. It had entirely 0:04:13.636 --> 0:04:17.636 different lyrics, different subject matter, a lot of guitar strumming, 0:04:17.836 --> 0:04:20.196 which I wasn't satisfied with. I just thought like, this 0:04:20.276 --> 0:04:23.556 is clutter this doesn't feel like what our mandate for 0:04:23.596 --> 0:04:27.556 the album is. And I listened to the whole mix 0:04:27.596 --> 0:04:29.876 and I just said, take out my guitar entirely, just 0:04:29.956 --> 0:04:32.156 take it out. And then we were messing with like 0:04:32.356 --> 0:04:39.396 loops and samples and Brad he said, listen to this artifact. 0:04:40.036 --> 0:04:42.396 You know when you create a loop and you have 0:04:42.516 --> 0:04:45.756 to tighten it so that there's you don't catch the 0:04:45.796 --> 0:04:50.036 next phrase. There was a little tag, a little artifact 0:04:50.196 --> 0:04:52.916 left over from the next singing phrase that sounded like 0:04:53.276 --> 0:04:56.876 who who And it was just coming over and over 0:04:56.916 --> 0:04:59.716 again the chorus and we started laughing about it, and 0:04:59.716 --> 0:05:01.836 He's like, it sounds like Hay Lou, And he said, 0:05:01.876 --> 0:05:04.956 what if you wrote it about like Laurie Anderson looking 0:05:04.996 --> 0:05:07.916 at Lou read and we just died. We just started. 0:05:08.356 --> 0:05:11.756 We went from this tense studio moment where nothing was 0:05:11.796 --> 0:05:15.236 working and we were pulling different instruments out and putting 0:05:15.276 --> 0:05:18.476 them back in and the whole thing just wasn't satisfying 0:05:18.756 --> 0:05:24.636 to this breakthrough fit of giggles, spontaneous riffing, and we 0:05:24.636 --> 0:05:27.676 were just writing down lyrics as we went and it 0:05:27.796 --> 0:05:33.356 just flew out of us. This hilarious scenario of lou 0:05:33.796 --> 0:05:38.716 read up to his Shenanigans and Laurie Anderson loving but exasperated, 0:05:39.116 --> 0:05:42.436 whether you know, following her husband's whims as he went 0:05:42.476 --> 0:05:46.396 around making trouble. And we both had such admiration for 0:05:46.436 --> 0:05:49.076 those artists, and they were formative for me. They certainly 0:05:49.116 --> 0:05:53.636 influenced me greatly separately individually before they even got together, 0:05:54.116 --> 0:05:56.476 and then as a couple just felt like such a 0:05:56.556 --> 0:05:59.396 romantic story. I mean, like that's my kind of fairytale. 0:05:59.756 --> 0:06:02.236 That's a rock and roll fairytale, Like how can those 0:06:02.236 --> 0:06:06.196 two people have such a wonderful, loving relationship. They're so 0:06:06.236 --> 0:06:09.796 strong and independent, and it just has always sort of 0:06:10.476 --> 0:06:12.516 been out there on the horizon as a you know, 0:06:12.836 --> 0:06:16.556 a goal couple goals for me. So we really had 0:06:16.556 --> 0:06:19.636 a great time writing that. That was one of those 0:06:19.676 --> 0:06:24.316 songs that just spontaneously comes into being and it just 0:06:24.396 --> 0:06:26.076 feels I mean, I don't mean to say this about 0:06:26.116 --> 0:06:27.916 my own song. What it's kind of brilliant, you know, 0:06:28.076 --> 0:06:31.796 like you can't relate to wondering what the daily life 0:06:31.836 --> 0:06:34.596 of legends are. You know, you're book, you have a 0:06:34.636 --> 0:06:37.676 long chapter about working with an unnamed producer, but you 0:06:37.716 --> 0:06:39.836 said he was working in a way that you didn't 0:06:39.876 --> 0:06:42.036 like in the studio, So how do you like to 0:06:42.036 --> 0:06:45.156 work in the studio? I get in there, I don't 0:06:45.236 --> 0:06:49.236 like any equipment. Equipment and I do not belong together. 0:06:49.436 --> 0:06:54.516 I resent heavy black boxes of equipment and cables. I 0:06:54.596 --> 0:07:00.276 resent all of that. I feel uncomfortable and unsafe around equipment. 0:07:00.716 --> 0:07:05.076 But I am one hundred and fifty thousand percent focused 0:07:05.076 --> 0:07:08.596 on sound. I feel like I'm painting with sound. I 0:07:08.636 --> 0:07:11.236 see it spherically. I'm like, you know, there's something we 0:07:11.276 --> 0:07:13.836 don't We're kind of empty in the lower left quadrant 0:07:13.996 --> 0:07:16.956 and the plugins. When Brad will dial through the various 0:07:16.996 --> 0:07:18.796 sounds that we can get on it, we can just 0:07:18.836 --> 0:07:22.516 go for an hour. He's the same way. We'll try 0:07:22.556 --> 0:07:25.156 all these different settings till it's exactly right. And then 0:07:25.556 --> 0:07:28.116 there's a lot of this going on in the studio 0:07:28.156 --> 0:07:31.076 with Brad and me, where I say that one, that's 0:07:31.076 --> 0:07:33.156 the sound. I like that sound. He's like, great, okay, 0:07:33.196 --> 0:07:35.036 but I want to try a couple other ones. I'm like, okay, 0:07:35.076 --> 0:07:37.196 but did you write down what that song sound is like? 0:07:37.276 --> 0:07:39.356 Can we get back to that if you go further, 0:07:39.516 --> 0:07:41.196 can we come back to that one because that's the 0:07:41.236 --> 0:07:43.436 one I like and then he's like, yeah, yeah, I'm 0:07:43.476 --> 0:07:46.196 just checking other things out. And then when I really 0:07:46.236 --> 0:07:48.636 like it, I'll kind of edge up on him and 0:07:48.756 --> 0:07:52.356 I'll just gently and slowly insert my arm over the 0:07:52.476 --> 0:07:55.276 key like the board and just be like no more, 0:07:55.636 --> 0:08:01.396 no more, don't go anywhere like this is it? Yeah, 0:08:02.756 --> 0:08:08.596 stop flutsing like right here, I'm minutely aware of every change, 0:08:09.156 --> 0:08:11.556 like all those Tokyo fades of the vocals going from 0:08:11.636 --> 0:08:14.196 left to right. That was my new invention for Soberish 0:08:14.196 --> 0:08:16.796 and conflicting leads. That was another thing that I was 0:08:16.836 --> 0:08:20.956 trying on Sobrish. I wanted no traditional song structure. I 0:08:20.996 --> 0:08:25.156 wanted every single song to feel effortlessly like it passes 0:08:25.156 --> 0:08:28.756 you by without noticing that it has such an unusual arrangement. 0:08:29.156 --> 0:08:30.516 You're gonna have to explain this to me because you 0:08:30.756 --> 0:08:36.036 cross through your hand. Well Spanish Doors. The album version 0:08:36.276 --> 0:08:39.476 has a lot of that work. I'm working with two 0:08:39.596 --> 0:08:42.676 or three different lead vocals that are singing different parts, 0:08:42.676 --> 0:08:46.916 They're singing different words, they're singing different melodies. And part 0:08:46.956 --> 0:08:51.756 of that was because the chorus lyric I'm slowly disappearing 0:08:52.316 --> 0:08:55.996 behind our Spanish doors. I wanted to create that moment 0:08:56.316 --> 0:08:59.316 when you suddenly realize everything in your life that you 0:08:59.396 --> 0:09:02.596 count on as being your identity, like your pile of 0:09:02.596 --> 0:09:06.516 what's good in your life is just decimated. I had 0:09:06.516 --> 0:09:08.796 a friend go through a terrible divorce, and I kind 0:09:08.836 --> 0:09:12.396 of wrote the song. It started before she went through divorce, 0:09:12.436 --> 0:09:14.636 but then I went quickly in and changed it to 0:09:14.676 --> 0:09:17.676 sort of write it from her point of view about 0:09:17.676 --> 0:09:21.516 that moment, that turbulent moment, and on the album version 0:09:21.596 --> 0:09:24.356 that don't want to think about it, don't want to 0:09:24.356 --> 0:09:28.476 talk about it, when you just want to deny what's happened, 0:09:28.516 --> 0:09:30.756 there's a part of your brain that's just pounding, going 0:09:30.796 --> 0:09:33.596 like nope, nope, nope, nope. So that's going on in 0:09:33.596 --> 0:09:37.756 the chorus, and then there's this truthful statement, which is 0:09:37.796 --> 0:09:40.756 I'm slowly disappearing behind our Spanish doors. The ghost I 0:09:40.836 --> 0:09:44.116 see in the mirror doesn't smile anymore. When as someone 0:09:44.276 --> 0:09:47.356 you thought loved you doesn't love you anymore, you begin 0:09:47.396 --> 0:09:50.356 to fade for yourself for a while, you actually like 0:09:50.516 --> 0:09:54.196 lose part of your substantialness and you're weakened, and you 0:09:54.276 --> 0:09:56.516 see it in the mirror. You can see yourself fading. 0:09:57.196 --> 0:10:00.276 And there's another part of the song going, you know, 0:10:00.356 --> 0:10:04.276 like there's no way out of this place. I can't 0:10:04.396 --> 0:10:08.716 hide my lying face. There's no life here without you, 0:10:09.676 --> 0:10:13.076 just the echo of off you know. So that's going 0:10:13.116 --> 0:10:16.716 on in the chorus too, and we're playing with these elements, 0:10:16.756 --> 0:10:19.076 bring them in and out almost to say, like, what 0:10:19.236 --> 0:10:21.516 is a lead vocal really what you're doing with the 0:10:21.556 --> 0:10:24.876 songs creating an emotional moment, and for me, that song 0:10:24.956 --> 0:10:27.876 is about the turbulence of finding out new information that 0:10:27.956 --> 0:10:30.836 just shatters your world and the various parts of you 0:10:30.996 --> 0:10:35.116 that are competing to say what's happening to you? And 0:10:35.196 --> 0:10:39.276 yet at the same time it's this incredibly driving, great 0:10:39.396 --> 0:10:42.836 pop song. But it's very complicated under all that. That's 0:10:42.876 --> 0:10:45.156 the trick. That's what I wanted you to feel. I 0:10:45.196 --> 0:10:48.156 wanted this to flow right past your ears, you know, 0:10:48.236 --> 0:10:51.516 not feel how weird it was, and yet if you 0:10:51.596 --> 0:10:54.556 take it apart, it's extraordinarily weird. Do you want to 0:10:54.596 --> 0:10:59.476 know about the tokyo fades? I want to know tokyo fades? Now? Okay? 0:10:59.516 --> 0:11:03.036 So in like you and you hate it another game 0:11:03.076 --> 0:11:05.036 to play because I don't know about you, but I 0:11:05.076 --> 0:11:08.676 have many sort of voices in my head, different sides 0:11:08.716 --> 0:11:11.796 of me that talk to each other. Maybe I have 0:11:11.916 --> 0:11:14.876 a thicker sagittal section than most people, Like the left 0:11:14.916 --> 0:11:17.756 brain and the right brain are kind of independent operators. 0:11:18.596 --> 0:11:24.076 So on Soulsucker, the second verse, there's an entirely different 0:11:24.156 --> 0:11:29.876 second verse that's being ghost sung underneath the lead, and 0:11:29.996 --> 0:11:33.796 they switch size, they cross over each other, and it's 0:11:33.836 --> 0:11:38.636 sort of daring your mind to follow one or the other, 0:11:39.476 --> 0:11:41.676 and you can't follow both because they're going to split. 0:11:43.316 --> 0:11:47.196 Have you noticed lately this is interesting to me? In music, 0:11:47.436 --> 0:11:52.156 I like to layer tabs on my laptop so that 0:11:52.356 --> 0:11:54.196 more than one thing is going on. I think we 0:11:54.276 --> 0:11:56.516 all have been doing that for a while, so you're 0:11:56.516 --> 0:12:00.036 paying attention to multiple things. I tried to reflect that 0:12:00.156 --> 0:12:03.316 in the music of Soubrush. I tried to reflect how 0:12:03.356 --> 0:12:06.116 I think we're living now, which is with sort of 0:12:06.116 --> 0:12:10.436 sonic complexity, and yet it will make it feel like 0:12:10.476 --> 0:12:15.356 a pop song, like something that is recognizable and familiar, 0:12:15.836 --> 0:12:21.196 and yet I'm reflecting what we're immersed in sonically now. 0:12:21.956 --> 0:12:25.236 When you talk about sound and you use your hands too, 0:12:25.436 --> 0:12:29.636 you really think of it spatially. Is that because you're 0:12:29.676 --> 0:12:32.676 a visual artist as well? I think so, But I've 0:12:32.676 --> 0:12:35.396 always felt that way in the studio, like even on Guyville, 0:12:35.436 --> 0:12:39.276 I was doing that. It just immediately hit me when 0:12:39.276 --> 0:12:41.876 I first learned how to work in a recording studio 0:12:41.996 --> 0:12:44.876 that that's what we were doing. We were placing things 0:12:44.876 --> 0:12:48.156 on a canvas, but it was spherical. It was spatial. 0:12:48.636 --> 0:12:52.436 We were building an imaginary atmosphere, or an imaginary room, 0:12:52.556 --> 0:12:58.116 or an imaginary performance. And because I guess my ears 0:12:58.116 --> 0:13:00.996 are very sensitive, I wanted to reflect the way the 0:13:01.036 --> 0:13:03.516 world sounds to me, which is full. You know, the 0:13:03.556 --> 0:13:05.516 birds are going, this is going, that's going. I'm very 0:13:05.556 --> 0:13:08.636 distracted by all that. It's hard for me in restaurants 0:13:08.636 --> 0:13:12.876 because I'm hearing everybody's conversations, you know, like it's hard 0:13:12.916 --> 0:13:16.076 to just focus on the one thing I'm hearing. So 0:13:16.116 --> 0:13:18.076 I guess I'm more and more trying to reflect that. 0:13:18.596 --> 0:13:25.076 We'll be right back after a quick break. We're back 0:13:25.076 --> 0:13:27.996 with more from Liz Phair and Bruce DLin. Now, I 0:13:28.076 --> 0:13:30.396 just want to go back to you. Growing up, your 0:13:30.436 --> 0:13:34.276 mother was involved in art, your father was an infectious 0:13:34.316 --> 0:13:38.396 disease specialist, which means you've probably had some smart thoughts 0:13:38.396 --> 0:13:41.316 over the past year as we all lived through the pandemic. 0:13:41.596 --> 0:13:44.516 When did music start for you, though. I mean I 0:13:44.556 --> 0:13:49.196 took piano lessons when I was five. Then then I 0:13:49.236 --> 0:13:52.636 began to take guitar lessons in seventh and eighth grade, 0:13:53.236 --> 0:13:57.916 classical at first, then folk, and then as it became 0:13:57.956 --> 0:14:00.196 more apparent to my guitar teacher that I was not 0:14:00.276 --> 0:14:03.076 interested in learning notes, and you know, I'd had it 0:14:03.196 --> 0:14:07.316 with that kind of formalized musical. And she says she 0:14:07.436 --> 0:14:10.236 told my mother. She said she lived across the street 0:14:10.276 --> 0:14:13.516 from us in Winnetka, and she said, she keeps asking 0:14:13.556 --> 0:14:15.956 me to play it for her. I don't think she's 0:14:15.996 --> 0:14:19.436 reading the music. I think she's imitating me. And she 0:14:19.516 --> 0:14:22.396 realized I had a very good ear. And my guitar 0:14:22.436 --> 0:14:24.876 teacher said, as well, you know, I was tired of 0:14:25.036 --> 0:14:28.156 James Taylor and Dan Fogelberg, you know, not my choices. 0:14:28.796 --> 0:14:31.236 And she said, if you bring me, I'll cut you 0:14:31.276 --> 0:14:33.316 a deal. I won't tell your mother, and if you 0:14:33.356 --> 0:14:36.916 bring me in one originally written song a week, we 0:14:36.996 --> 0:14:40.076 will continue our guitar lessons. So that's really when it began, 0:14:40.276 --> 0:14:42.076 this sort of And I would do the same thing 0:14:42.116 --> 0:14:44.756 when my mother wanted me to practice. She'd be cooking 0:14:44.756 --> 0:14:46.916 in the kitchen and I didn't want to practice, so 0:14:46.956 --> 0:14:49.236 I'd make up my own songs on the piano, and 0:14:49.276 --> 0:14:51.756 as long as I was doing something on an instrument, 0:14:51.836 --> 0:14:54.476 all these people seem to be okay with it. So 0:14:54.516 --> 0:14:56.196 I would say from a very young age, and my 0:14:56.276 --> 0:14:59.876 parents are so they're not musical in terms of performing, 0:14:59.916 --> 0:15:03.516 but they enjoy music. It was. It filled our house. 0:15:03.796 --> 0:15:06.356 It's part of every meal. I don't think we sit 0:15:06.396 --> 0:15:08.636 down to a meal together without music in the background. 0:15:09.156 --> 0:15:12.636 And they took us to concerts, and you know, we 0:15:12.676 --> 0:15:16.716 went to symphony we went to musical theater productions. It 0:15:16.796 --> 0:15:19.316 was just always a big part of life. Was there 0:15:19.356 --> 0:15:21.676 a particular pop song or something you heard in the 0:15:21.796 --> 0:15:24.356 radio that at one point just said, wait a second, 0:15:24.396 --> 0:15:26.956 I want to do that. This is the truthful answer, 0:15:26.996 --> 0:15:29.476 but I'm not sure it's what you're looking for, or 0:15:29.516 --> 0:15:32.716 maybe I'm not as impressed with it. But I also 0:15:32.756 --> 0:15:37.396 sang choir in our church. So I began to think 0:15:37.396 --> 0:15:40.756 that I wanted to write a classic Christmas carol, and 0:15:40.836 --> 0:15:43.116 I thought like that would be a really good thing 0:15:43.236 --> 0:15:47.836 to do. It was to write a new classic Christmas carol, 0:15:47.956 --> 0:15:50.956 like as as Stupid as Jingle Bells or as you 0:15:50.996 --> 0:15:54.556 know beautiful as a little town of Bethlehem. Just something 0:15:55.236 --> 0:15:57.316 I loved to put the lights up in my room. 0:15:57.396 --> 0:16:01.076 And our church had a big, huge pageant. It was 0:16:01.236 --> 0:16:05.116 very Anglican because we all dressed up, you want to think, 0:16:05.156 --> 0:16:08.276 like Henry the Eighth type banquet that we all went 0:16:08.316 --> 0:16:10.556 to and like in the light and we were in 0:16:10.636 --> 0:16:13.196 page and tights and we did tumbling and singing and 0:16:13.356 --> 0:16:16.316 stuff like that. And we lived in England for a year, 0:16:16.476 --> 0:16:19.436 so like, it all felt very kind of But yes, 0:16:19.756 --> 0:16:22.556 I wanted to write a classic Christmas carol. So that's 0:16:22.596 --> 0:16:25.956 the first time I remember formally sitting down and say 0:16:25.996 --> 0:16:28.276 I'm going to do something professional. And I must have 0:16:28.316 --> 0:16:30.356 been a freshman in high school or an eighth grade 0:16:30.476 --> 0:16:33.396 something like that. Have you ever written a Christmas Carol? 0:16:33.916 --> 0:16:37.996 I wrote a funny dystopian one for Amazon Music like 0:16:38.156 --> 0:16:40.516 ten years ago, and I like it. I think it's 0:16:40.596 --> 0:16:44.956 kind of a off pieced Christmas classic. So yeah, I 0:16:44.996 --> 0:16:48.116 guess I have. It's called Ho Ho Ho. I think 0:16:48.116 --> 0:16:50.756 I remember that. But I want to ask you about 0:16:50.756 --> 0:16:54.236 your guitar playing, because your guitar playing is so distinct. 0:16:54.636 --> 0:16:57.876 You don't play the way other people play. Maybe it's 0:16:57.876 --> 0:16:59.996 because you do you write in the guitar as well? 0:17:00.236 --> 0:17:03.316 I do, yeah, okay, because there's a lot of interesting 0:17:03.356 --> 0:17:05.756 chords and modulations you use that I don't think someone 0:17:05.836 --> 0:17:08.516 writing at a piano would use. So first of all, 0:17:08.516 --> 0:17:10.516 where did the rhythm come from? How did you develop 0:17:10.596 --> 0:17:14.236 that sense of playing? It's innate. I mean, it's hard 0:17:14.236 --> 0:17:17.156 to explain because it's not conscious. As much as I've 0:17:17.156 --> 0:17:20.476 just told you this whole long history of musical training, 0:17:21.596 --> 0:17:24.396 that wasn't what my focus was. I was a visual artist, 0:17:24.556 --> 0:17:26.476 and I knew that I wanted to be that, and 0:17:26.556 --> 0:17:29.276 I wanted to be a professional visual artist from a 0:17:29.356 --> 0:17:32.636 very young age, and I took that very seriously, and 0:17:32.796 --> 0:17:35.956 music was just more of what I don't know. I 0:17:35.996 --> 0:17:38.116 came from a family that you were supposed to do stuff. 0:17:38.156 --> 0:17:41.356 You're supposed to do sports, you're supposed to do arts, 0:17:41.676 --> 0:17:44.516 you're supposed to help in the community. So in my 0:17:44.636 --> 0:17:49.196 basket was music. But I see the guitar as an 0:17:49.236 --> 0:17:53.076 object that makes sound, all different kinds of sound, and 0:17:53.276 --> 0:17:57.316 all different positions make different sounds, and fingers make different sounds. 0:17:57.756 --> 0:18:01.476 And most people learn chords. I couldn't tell you what 0:18:01.596 --> 0:18:04.236 chords I was playing or what key I'm in to 0:18:04.356 --> 0:18:06.836 this day if my life depended on it. Really, I 0:18:06.876 --> 0:18:09.436 have no idea and I have no interest in it. 0:18:10.236 --> 0:18:15.476 So you couldn't tell me the chords in Halu And no, really, 0:18:15.596 --> 0:18:18.556 I have to relearn all my songs. I'm so prolific 0:18:18.636 --> 0:18:21.916 that I have to relearn every song I've ever written 0:18:22.036 --> 0:18:24.556 for tour. I don't know them any better than the 0:18:24.596 --> 0:18:26.196 band does. I have to go back and figure out 0:18:26.196 --> 0:18:28.796 what I was doing. Luckily, there's a muscle memory, and 0:18:28.836 --> 0:18:30.756 I know the kind of shapes I like to make 0:18:30.876 --> 0:18:35.516 on the fretboard, but it's all instinctive, and it's all 0:18:35.556 --> 0:18:37.876 about the ears, and it's the same in the recordings. 0:18:37.876 --> 0:18:40.196 To whatever sound I need, I'll figure out a way 0:18:40.196 --> 0:18:42.156 to get it if it's up if I've been playing. 0:18:42.916 --> 0:18:45.356 I mean, I sound like a crazy person, and maybe 0:18:45.356 --> 0:18:48.636 I am, but I just have had an always innate 0:18:48.756 --> 0:18:51.836 sense with creativity that I had the authority to do 0:18:51.916 --> 0:18:53.956 it my own way. I don't know if that's from 0:18:53.956 --> 0:18:58.116 my parents encouraging me or how I got that, but 0:18:58.316 --> 0:19:02.916 in all respects, I'm sort of an untrained expert. No, 0:19:03.036 --> 0:19:05.956 it makes sense. I'm just amazed that. I mean, I 0:19:05.956 --> 0:19:09.436 guess Paul McCartney still can't write music, and you know, 0:19:09.516 --> 0:19:11.796 lots of people still just have a feel for it. 0:19:11.836 --> 0:19:14.356 I just didn't know that was the way you wrote. Yeah, 0:19:14.396 --> 0:19:17.476 and it's all about my ears. I hear very very 0:19:17.596 --> 0:19:21.276 very well, too well. How do you mean too well? 0:19:21.756 --> 0:19:24.036 If people are moving around the house, I hear it, 0:19:24.236 --> 0:19:27.516 you know, I just hear everything. I'm like, oh, you 0:19:27.556 --> 0:19:31.396 can't block it out, can't block it out. It's distracting. 0:19:31.436 --> 0:19:34.036 Like when the wind blows. I can't handle windy days. 0:19:34.076 --> 0:19:36.196 I don't like it. It irritates me. I could be 0:19:36.236 --> 0:19:37.796 out in the wind, but if I'm in a house 0:19:37.796 --> 0:19:40.116 and the windows are rattling, I can't get any work 0:19:40.156 --> 0:19:44.316 done because I'm just like too much sensory information. To 0:19:44.396 --> 0:19:47.796 this day, you use a lot of unusual progressions, things 0:19:48.276 --> 0:19:51.676 more trained musicians would shy away from. And was that 0:19:51.876 --> 0:19:54.956 purely just you in the instrument, or were there songs 0:19:54.996 --> 0:19:56.796 you were hearing that did things like that that you 0:19:57.316 --> 0:20:00.516 wanted to emulate, or was it simply you with a guitar. 0:20:01.076 --> 0:20:05.076 I never consciously emulate anything. I think there are times 0:20:05.116 --> 0:20:08.436 when in the studio it's helpful to bring in to 0:20:08.436 --> 0:20:11.836 find a comm and language. I will emulate in the 0:20:11.956 --> 0:20:14.836 studio because it's the simplest way I've found to convey 0:20:14.876 --> 0:20:17.316 what I want. I'll say, you know how this song 0:20:17.396 --> 0:20:19.916 has this, but I'm actually going back after the song 0:20:20.036 --> 0:20:23.516 is written, trying to communicate with a producer by finding 0:20:23.556 --> 0:20:27.156 a song in the popular repertoire that has the thing 0:20:27.196 --> 0:20:30.116 I want that I can't put into words. So I'll 0:20:30.116 --> 0:20:31.916 bring in a song into the studio and say, like, 0:20:31.996 --> 0:20:35.956 let's do something like this, because it's a communication thing. 0:20:36.356 --> 0:20:41.036 But it never sit down to write and consciously imitate something. 0:20:41.636 --> 0:20:45.236 But I'm sure, in fact, I know that it's been 0:20:45.796 --> 0:20:48.756 you know, my love of music has come in, been digested. 0:20:49.276 --> 0:20:52.596 My subconscious is holding onto it and it spits it 0:20:52.636 --> 0:20:56.996 back out through my hands and through the instrument. So 0:20:57.116 --> 0:21:00.116 writing for you is always just you with a guitar, yes, 0:21:00.596 --> 0:21:04.676 figuring things out, yes, and then the lyrics come later 0:21:05.036 --> 0:21:09.756 or same time. Really, now, am I really that strange? 0:21:09.876 --> 0:21:11.996 This is the first time in an interview that I've 0:21:11.996 --> 0:21:15.316 sort of felt like I might be extremely out of 0:21:15.356 --> 0:21:17.996 the norm or out of the mainstream here, like I've 0:21:18.036 --> 0:21:20.436 never really I think a lot of musicians are that way, 0:21:20.476 --> 0:21:24.836 aren't they? Or No, No, I think you're maybe further 0:21:24.956 --> 0:21:28.076 along on that particular spectrum. But now I think that's 0:21:28.076 --> 0:21:31.236 how most musicians do it. It's much more by feel, 0:21:31.436 --> 0:21:34.436 but that you don't even to this day you have 0:21:34.476 --> 0:21:36.516 to go back and figure out your own songs by ears. 0:21:36.516 --> 0:21:39.436 Really interesting to me. Do you ever go back and say, oh, 0:21:39.476 --> 0:21:42.036 you can't figure it? Like? No, I've never not been 0:21:42.076 --> 0:21:45.116 able to crack a song. I'm terrified each time that 0:21:45.156 --> 0:21:48.236 I can't. Like when we did the box set, a 0:21:48.356 --> 0:21:52.476 reissue of my first record, Exile in Guyville and all 0:21:52.516 --> 0:21:55.196 the girly sound tapes, which were these cassette recordings I 0:21:55.276 --> 0:21:58.836 made before I was discovered, so to speak. You know, 0:21:59.076 --> 0:22:02.236 when I was just making wacky songs in the middle 0:22:02.236 --> 0:22:05.316 of night for my own pleasure and some of those 0:22:05.436 --> 0:22:08.036 you know, that was thirty years ago. How am I 0:22:08.036 --> 0:22:10.636 going to figure out what I was playing? Luckily I 0:22:10.716 --> 0:22:12.716 wasn't that great of a guitar player, so it turns 0:22:12.716 --> 0:22:15.836 out like not that many leaps and bounds were made. 0:22:15.956 --> 0:22:19.276 It wasn't that difficult. But half of what I know 0:22:19.436 --> 0:22:23.316 to do is actually in my hands. Like my hands 0:22:23.356 --> 0:22:28.516 have brains and they remember, and once I start doing something, 0:22:28.596 --> 0:22:31.196 it's almost like a dance. Oh, I remember this dance. 0:22:31.796 --> 0:22:35.316 It'll come back to me. You said once that the 0:22:35.436 --> 0:22:38.876 best songs are the ones you write when you think 0:22:38.916 --> 0:22:41.156 no one's going to listen. Is that still the case 0:22:41.196 --> 0:22:43.156 for you? Are you able to sort of block out 0:22:43.156 --> 0:22:45.636 the expectation that you know one day people are going 0:22:45.716 --> 0:22:48.636 to listen to this. I think that's why I wait 0:22:48.716 --> 0:22:52.476 so long in between records usually because I think the 0:22:52.596 --> 0:22:57.116 more honest, vulnerable songs come when I am just in 0:22:57.156 --> 0:23:02.756 a private space, a dream space, and that's how I 0:23:02.796 --> 0:23:06.396 grew up writing songs. I think that's why I brought 0:23:06.436 --> 0:23:10.116