1 00:00:15,436 --> 00:00:24,716 Speaker 1: Pushkin from her gritty nineteen ninety three debut album, Exile 2 00:00:24,796 --> 00:00:28,036 Speaker 1: in Guyville, Liz Phair helped lay the foundation for a 3 00:00:28,196 --> 00:00:37,356 Speaker 1: generation of fierce independent artists. My confidences shook I don't 4 00:00:37,396 --> 00:00:43,636 Speaker 1: know where. Early in her career, she pushed for freedom 5 00:00:43,676 --> 00:00:48,396 Speaker 1: and creative control, especially for female artists, something she's finally 6 00:00:48,436 --> 00:00:52,516 Speaker 1: seen become the norm in the industry. That progress inspired 7 00:00:52,556 --> 00:00:55,876 Speaker 1: her new record, Soberish, which has her reuniting with the 8 00:00:55,916 --> 00:01:00,556 Speaker 1: producer of her first two albums, Brad One. On today's episode, 9 00:01:00,796 --> 00:01:02,956 Speaker 1: Who's Held Them talks to Liz Fair about how her 10 00:01:02,956 --> 00:01:06,996 Speaker 1: approach to recording music isn't a technical one. She relies 11 00:01:06,996 --> 00:01:09,956 Speaker 1: in the unique way she hears music and her background 12 00:01:10,036 --> 00:01:12,956 Speaker 1: as a visual artist. She also talks about how her 13 00:01:12,956 --> 00:01:17,196 Speaker 1: first ever creative aspiration was to write a classic Christmas Carol. 14 00:01:21,036 --> 00:01:23,796 Speaker 1: This is broken record liner notes for the digital age. 15 00:01:23,916 --> 00:01:33,156 Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond. Here's Bruce Headlam with Liz Phair. So 16 00:01:33,236 --> 00:01:35,556 Speaker 1: this is your first album since you wrote your terrific 17 00:01:35,596 --> 00:01:38,956 Speaker 1: book Horror Stories. Thank you. Yes, it is my first 18 00:01:38,956 --> 00:01:43,316 Speaker 1: album in ten years. Actually, did writing the book change 19 00:01:43,316 --> 00:01:47,436 Speaker 1: how you write music? Did affect it at all? I 20 00:01:47,556 --> 00:01:50,276 Speaker 1: don't know that it did I feel like writing music 21 00:01:50,356 --> 00:01:53,716 Speaker 1: affected how I wrote the book. I think there's only 22 00:01:53,916 --> 00:01:58,156 Speaker 1: so many words I care to fit into three minutes, 23 00:01:58,716 --> 00:02:03,116 Speaker 1: and if anything, I might have left words out of 24 00:02:03,116 --> 00:02:05,316 Speaker 1: the music to some extent. I mean you can see 25 00:02:05,356 --> 00:02:07,836 Speaker 1: bursts of it at the end of songs. I'll sort 26 00:02:07,876 --> 00:02:10,556 Speaker 1: of like start getting really already at the ends of songs. 27 00:02:10,676 --> 00:02:14,836 Speaker 1: But if anything, it freed me up to think about 28 00:02:14,916 --> 00:02:20,636 Speaker 1: sound design and production more. And I definitely did feel 29 00:02:20,676 --> 00:02:24,316 Speaker 1: the arc of the album was important this time, almost 30 00:02:24,356 --> 00:02:26,796 Speaker 1: in a way that I haven't felt since Guyville. That 31 00:02:26,956 --> 00:02:30,156 Speaker 1: the story I was telling of sort of a breakup 32 00:02:30,196 --> 00:02:33,756 Speaker 1: of one long relationship in the first half, and then 33 00:02:34,276 --> 00:02:37,316 Speaker 1: the reemergence of my single self in the second half, 34 00:02:37,436 --> 00:02:41,276 Speaker 1: sort of dating two different guys. That's how I see 35 00:02:41,316 --> 00:02:44,596 Speaker 1: the album, and then like the third song from the 36 00:02:44,676 --> 00:02:47,196 Speaker 1: end or fourth song from the end, I regret or 37 00:02:47,236 --> 00:02:51,516 Speaker 1: a missing of that original relationship. So I don't know 38 00:02:51,516 --> 00:02:52,916 Speaker 1: that it did. I think a lot of people are 39 00:02:52,956 --> 00:02:55,956 Speaker 1: curious about that, and I think it's more the other 40 00:02:55,956 --> 00:02:59,276 Speaker 1: way around. I think the reason I broke core stories 41 00:02:59,276 --> 00:03:03,116 Speaker 1: into short stories was because of the way that I 42 00:03:03,116 --> 00:03:05,076 Speaker 1: write a song, the way that I could only I 43 00:03:05,116 --> 00:03:10,236 Speaker 1: couldn't quite go for the full book arc. Each chapter 44 00:03:10,436 --> 00:03:14,956 Speaker 1: feels to me like an expanded song with many more 45 00:03:15,036 --> 00:03:18,916 Speaker 1: detours and many more tangents. Your album's full of great characters, 46 00:03:18,956 --> 00:03:21,676 Speaker 1: AS's your book. One I do want to ask you 47 00:03:21,716 --> 00:03:23,276 Speaker 1: about off the Top, and I think you released it 48 00:03:23,356 --> 00:03:27,596 Speaker 1: last year, was Halu. That is a joyful song that 49 00:03:27,876 --> 00:03:32,196 Speaker 1: sprang up spontaneously. It was actually an entirely different song 50 00:03:32,516 --> 00:03:35,516 Speaker 1: when I brought it into the studio and at a 51 00:03:35,636 --> 00:03:41,276 Speaker 1: very specific mandate for so Brush, I knew exactly where 52 00:03:41,316 --> 00:03:43,596 Speaker 1: I wanted to end up on the other side of it, 53 00:03:43,996 --> 00:03:46,116 Speaker 1: but I had no idea how to get there. And 54 00:03:46,716 --> 00:03:49,596 Speaker 1: Brad Wood, who was the producer, who was the producer 55 00:03:49,596 --> 00:03:54,036 Speaker 1: on my original three records, although White Chocolate Space Egg 56 00:03:54,116 --> 00:03:57,276 Speaker 1: has Scotlet as well, he produced so Brush and so 57 00:03:57,396 --> 00:04:01,676 Speaker 1: working together after not working together for gosh twenty years 58 00:04:02,116 --> 00:04:06,196 Speaker 1: something like that was an interesting reacquaintance too, to kind 59 00:04:06,196 --> 00:04:09,476 Speaker 1: of like get back into a rhythm with him. Halo 60 00:04:09,596 --> 00:04:13,636 Speaker 1: was a very different song it was. It had entirely 61 00:04:13,636 --> 00:04:17,636 Speaker 1: different lyrics, different subject matter, a lot of guitar strumming, 62 00:04:17,836 --> 00:04:20,196 Speaker 1: which I wasn't satisfied with. I just thought like, this 63 00:04:20,276 --> 00:04:23,556 Speaker 1: is clutter this doesn't feel like what our mandate for 64 00:04:23,596 --> 00:04:27,556 Speaker 1: the album is. And I listened to the whole mix 65 00:04:27,596 --> 00:04:29,876 Speaker 1: and I just said, take out my guitar entirely, just 66 00:04:29,956 --> 00:04:32,156 Speaker 1: take it out. And then we were messing with like 67 00:04:32,356 --> 00:04:39,396 Speaker 1: loops and samples and Brad he said, listen to this artifact. 68 00:04:40,036 --> 00:04:42,396 Speaker 1: You know when you create a loop and you have 69 00:04:42,516 --> 00:04:45,756 Speaker 1: to tighten it so that there's you don't catch the 70 00:04:45,796 --> 00:04:50,036 Speaker 1: next phrase. There was a little tag, a little artifact 71 00:04:50,196 --> 00:04:52,916 Speaker 1: left over from the next singing phrase that sounded like 72 00:04:53,276 --> 00:04:56,876 Speaker 1: who who And it was just coming over and over 73 00:04:56,916 --> 00:04:59,716 Speaker 1: again the chorus and we started laughing about it, and 74 00:04:59,716 --> 00:05:01,836 Speaker 1: He's like, it sounds like Hay Lou, And he said, 75 00:05:01,876 --> 00:05:04,956 Speaker 1: what if you wrote it about like Laurie Anderson looking 76 00:05:04,996 --> 00:05:07,916 Speaker 1: at Lou read and we just died. We just started. 77 00:05:08,356 --> 00:05:11,756 Speaker 1: We went from this tense studio moment where nothing was 78 00:05:11,796 --> 00:05:15,236 Speaker 1: working and we were pulling different instruments out and putting 79 00:05:15,276 --> 00:05:18,476 Speaker 1: them back in and the whole thing just wasn't satisfying 80 00:05:18,756 --> 00:05:24,636 Speaker 1: to this breakthrough fit of giggles, spontaneous riffing, and we 81 00:05:24,636 --> 00:05:27,676 Speaker 1: were just writing down lyrics as we went and it 82 00:05:27,796 --> 00:05:33,356 Speaker 1: just flew out of us. This hilarious scenario of lou 83 00:05:33,796 --> 00:05:38,716 Speaker 1: read up to his Shenanigans and Laurie Anderson loving but exasperated, 84 00:05:39,116 --> 00:05:42,436 Speaker 1: whether you know, following her husband's whims as he went 85 00:05:42,476 --> 00:05:46,396 Speaker 1: around making trouble. And we both had such admiration for 86 00:05:46,436 --> 00:05:49,076 Speaker 1: those artists, and they were formative for me. They certainly 87 00:05:49,116 --> 00:05:53,636 Speaker 1: influenced me greatly separately individually before they even got together, 88 00:05:54,116 --> 00:05:56,476 Speaker 1: and then as a couple just felt like such a 89 00:05:56,556 --> 00:05:59,396 Speaker 1: romantic story. I mean, like that's my kind of fairytale. 90 00:05:59,756 --> 00:06:02,236 Speaker 1: That's a rock and roll fairytale, Like how can those 91 00:06:02,236 --> 00:06:06,196 Speaker 1: two people have such a wonderful, loving relationship. They're so 92 00:06:06,236 --> 00:06:09,796 Speaker 1: strong and independent, and it just has always sort of 93 00:06:10,476 --> 00:06:12,516 Speaker 1: been out there on the horizon as a you know, 94 00:06:12,836 --> 00:06:16,556 Speaker 1: a goal couple goals for me. So we really had 95 00:06:16,556 --> 00:06:19,636 Speaker 1: a great time writing that. That was one of those 96 00:06:19,676 --> 00:06:24,316 Speaker 1: songs that just spontaneously comes into being and it just 97 00:06:24,396 --> 00:06:26,076 Speaker 1: feels I mean, I don't mean to say this about 98 00:06:26,116 --> 00:06:27,916 Speaker 1: my own song. What it's kind of brilliant, you know, 99 00:06:28,076 --> 00:06:31,796 Speaker 1: like you can't relate to wondering what the daily life 100 00:06:31,836 --> 00:06:34,596 Speaker 1: of legends are. You know, you're book, you have a 101 00:06:34,636 --> 00:06:37,676 Speaker 1: long chapter about working with an unnamed producer, but you 102 00:06:37,716 --> 00:06:39,836 Speaker 1: said he was working in a way that you didn't 103 00:06:39,876 --> 00:06:42,036 Speaker 1: like in the studio, So how do you like to 104 00:06:42,036 --> 00:06:45,156 Speaker 1: work in the studio? I get in there, I don't 105 00:06:45,236 --> 00:06:49,236 Speaker 1: like any equipment. Equipment and I do not belong together. 106 00:06:49,436 --> 00:06:54,516 Speaker 1: I resent heavy black boxes of equipment and cables. I 107 00:06:54,596 --> 00:07:00,276 Speaker 1: resent all of that. I feel uncomfortable and unsafe around equipment. 108 00:07:00,716 --> 00:07:05,076 Speaker 1: But I am one hundred and fifty thousand percent focused 109 00:07:05,076 --> 00:07:08,596 Speaker 1: on sound. I feel like I'm painting with sound. I 110 00:07:08,636 --> 00:07:11,236 Speaker 1: see it spherically. I'm like, you know, there's something we 111 00:07:11,276 --> 00:07:13,836 Speaker 1: don't We're kind of empty in the lower left quadrant 112 00:07:13,996 --> 00:07:16,956 Speaker 1: and the plugins. When Brad will dial through the various 113 00:07:16,996 --> 00:07:18,796 Speaker 1: sounds that we can get on it, we can just 114 00:07:18,836 --> 00:07:22,516 Speaker 1: go for an hour. He's the same way. We'll try 115 00:07:22,556 --> 00:07:25,156 Speaker 1: all these different settings till it's exactly right. And then 116 00:07:25,556 --> 00:07:28,116 Speaker 1: there's a lot of this going on in the studio 117 00:07:28,156 --> 00:07:31,076 Speaker 1: with Brad and me, where I say that one, that's 118 00:07:31,076 --> 00:07:33,156 Speaker 1: the sound. I like that sound. He's like, great, okay, 119 00:07:33,196 --> 00:07:35,036 Speaker 1: but I want to try a couple other ones. I'm like, okay, 120 00:07:35,076 --> 00:07:37,196 Speaker 1: but did you write down what that song sound is like? 121 00:07:37,276 --> 00:07:39,356 Speaker 1: Can we get back to that if you go further, 122 00:07:39,516 --> 00:07:41,196 Speaker 1: can we come back to that one because that's the 123 00:07:41,236 --> 00:07:43,436 Speaker 1: one I like and then he's like, yeah, yeah, I'm 124 00:07:43,476 --> 00:07:46,196 Speaker 1: just checking other things out. And then when I really 125 00:07:46,236 --> 00:07:48,636 Speaker 1: like it, I'll kind of edge up on him and 126 00:07:48,756 --> 00:07:52,356 Speaker 1: I'll just gently and slowly insert my arm over the 127 00:07:52,476 --> 00:07:55,276 Speaker 1: key like the board and just be like no more, 128 00:07:55,636 --> 00:08:01,396 Speaker 1: no more, don't go anywhere like this is it? Yeah, 129 00:08:02,756 --> 00:08:08,596 Speaker 1: stop flutsing like right here, I'm minutely aware of every change, 130 00:08:09,156 --> 00:08:11,556 Speaker 1: like all those Tokyo fades of the vocals going from 131 00:08:11,636 --> 00:08:14,196 Speaker 1: left to right. That was my new invention for Soberish 132 00:08:14,196 --> 00:08:16,796 Speaker 1: and conflicting leads. That was another thing that I was 133 00:08:16,836 --> 00:08:20,956 Speaker 1: trying on Sobrish. I wanted no traditional song structure. I 134 00:08:20,996 --> 00:08:25,156 Speaker 1: wanted every single song to feel effortlessly like it passes 135 00:08:25,156 --> 00:08:28,756 Speaker 1: you by without noticing that it has such an unusual arrangement. 136 00:08:29,156 --> 00:08:30,516 Speaker 1: You're gonna have to explain this to me because you 137 00:08:30,756 --> 00:08:36,036 Speaker 1: cross through your hand. Well Spanish Doors. The album version 138 00:08:36,276 --> 00:08:39,476 Speaker 1: has a lot of that work. I'm working with two 139 00:08:39,596 --> 00:08:42,676 Speaker 1: or three different lead vocals that are singing different parts, 140 00:08:42,676 --> 00:08:46,916 Speaker 1: They're singing different words, they're singing different melodies. And part 141 00:08:46,956 --> 00:08:51,756 Speaker 1: of that was because the chorus lyric I'm slowly disappearing 142 00:08:52,316 --> 00:08:55,996 Speaker 1: behind our Spanish doors. I wanted to create that moment 143 00:08:56,316 --> 00:08:59,316 Speaker 1: when you suddenly realize everything in your life that you 144 00:08:59,396 --> 00:09:02,596 Speaker 1: count on as being your identity, like your pile of 145 00:09:02,596 --> 00:09:06,516 Speaker 1: what's good in your life is just decimated. I had 146 00:09:06,516 --> 00:09:08,796 Speaker 1: a friend go through a terrible divorce, and I kind 147 00:09:08,836 --> 00:09:12,396 Speaker 1: of wrote the song. It started before she went through divorce, 148 00:09:12,436 --> 00:09:14,636 Speaker 1: but then I went quickly in and changed it to 149 00:09:14,676 --> 00:09:17,676 Speaker 1: sort of write it from her point of view about 150 00:09:17,676 --> 00:09:21,516 Speaker 1: that moment, that turbulent moment, and on the album version 151 00:09:21,596 --> 00:09:24,356 Speaker 1: that don't want to think about it, don't want to 152 00:09:24,356 --> 00:09:28,476 Speaker 1: talk about it, when you just want to deny what's happened, 153 00:09:28,516 --> 00:09:30,756 Speaker 1: there's a part of your brain that's just pounding, going 154 00:09:30,796 --> 00:09:33,596 Speaker 1: like nope, nope, nope, nope. So that's going on in 155 00:09:33,596 --> 00:09:37,756 Speaker 1: the chorus, and then there's this truthful statement, which is 156 00:09:37,796 --> 00:09:40,756 Speaker 1: I'm slowly disappearing behind our Spanish doors. The ghost I 157 00:09:40,836 --> 00:09:44,116 Speaker 1: see in the mirror doesn't smile anymore. When as someone 158 00:09:44,276 --> 00:09:47,356 Speaker 1: you thought loved you doesn't love you anymore, you begin 159 00:09:47,396 --> 00:09:50,356 Speaker 1: to fade for yourself for a while, you actually like 160 00:09:50,516 --> 00:09:54,196 Speaker 1: lose part of your substantialness and you're weakened, and you 161 00:09:54,276 --> 00:09:56,516 Speaker 1: see it in the mirror. You can see yourself fading. 162 00:09:57,196 --> 00:10:00,276 Speaker 1: And there's another part of the song going, you know, 163 00:10:00,356 --> 00:10:04,276 Speaker 1: like there's no way out of this place. I can't 164 00:10:04,396 --> 00:10:08,716 Speaker 1: hide my lying face. There's no life here without you, 165 00:10:09,676 --> 00:10:13,076 Speaker 1: just the echo of off you know. So that's going 166 00:10:13,116 --> 00:10:16,716 Speaker 1: on in the chorus too, and we're playing with these elements, 167 00:10:16,756 --> 00:10:19,076 Speaker 1: bring them in and out almost to say, like, what 168 00:10:19,236 --> 00:10:21,516 Speaker 1: is a lead vocal really what you're doing with the 169 00:10:21,556 --> 00:10:24,876 Speaker 1: songs creating an emotional moment, and for me, that song 170 00:10:24,956 --> 00:10:27,876 Speaker 1: is about the turbulence of finding out new information that 171 00:10:27,956 --> 00:10:30,836 Speaker 1: just shatters your world and the various parts of you 172 00:10:30,996 --> 00:10:35,116 Speaker 1: that are competing to say what's happening to you? And 173 00:10:35,196 --> 00:10:39,276 Speaker 1: yet at the same time it's this incredibly driving, great 174 00:10:39,396 --> 00:10:42,836 Speaker 1: pop song. But it's very complicated under all that. That's 175 00:10:42,876 --> 00:10:45,156 Speaker 1: the trick. That's what I wanted you to feel. I 176 00:10:45,196 --> 00:10:48,156 Speaker 1: wanted this to flow right past your ears, you know, 177 00:10:48,236 --> 00:10:51,516 Speaker 1: not feel how weird it was, and yet if you 178 00:10:51,596 --> 00:10:54,556 Speaker 1: take it apart, it's extraordinarily weird. Do you want to 179 00:10:54,596 --> 00:10:59,476 Speaker 1: know about the tokyo fades? I want to know tokyo fades? Now? Okay? 180 00:10:59,516 --> 00:11:03,036 Speaker 1: So in like you and you hate it another game 181 00:11:03,076 --> 00:11:05,036 Speaker 1: to play because I don't know about you, but I 182 00:11:05,076 --> 00:11:08,676 Speaker 1: have many sort of voices in my head, different sides 183 00:11:08,716 --> 00:11:11,796 Speaker 1: of me that talk to each other. Maybe I have 184 00:11:11,916 --> 00:11:14,876 Speaker 1: a thicker sagittal section than most people, Like the left 185 00:11:14,916 --> 00:11:17,756 Speaker 1: brain and the right brain are kind of independent operators. 186 00:11:18,596 --> 00:11:24,076 Speaker 1: So on Soulsucker, the second verse, there's an entirely different 187 00:11:24,156 --> 00:11:29,876 Speaker 1: second verse that's being ghost sung underneath the lead, and 188 00:11:29,996 --> 00:11:33,796 Speaker 1: they switch size, they cross over each other, and it's 189 00:11:33,836 --> 00:11:38,636 Speaker 1: sort of daring your mind to follow one or the other, 190 00:11:39,476 --> 00:11:41,676 Speaker 1: and you can't follow both because they're going to split. 191 00:11:43,316 --> 00:11:47,196 Speaker 1: Have you noticed lately this is interesting to me? In music, 192 00:11:47,436 --> 00:11:52,156 Speaker 1: I like to layer tabs on my laptop so that 193 00:11:52,356 --> 00:11:54,196 Speaker 1: more than one thing is going on. I think we 194 00:11:54,276 --> 00:11:56,516 Speaker 1: all have been doing that for a while, so you're 195 00:11:56,516 --> 00:12:00,036 Speaker 1: paying attention to multiple things. I tried to reflect that 196 00:12:00,156 --> 00:12:03,316 Speaker 1: in the music of Soubrush. I tried to reflect how 197 00:12:03,356 --> 00:12:06,116 Speaker 1: I think we're living now, which is with sort of 198 00:12:06,116 --> 00:12:10,436 Speaker 1: sonic complexity, and yet it will make it feel like 199 00:12:10,476 --> 00:12:15,356 Speaker 1: a pop song, like something that is recognizable and familiar, 200 00:12:15,836 --> 00:12:21,196 Speaker 1: and yet I'm reflecting what we're immersed in sonically now. 201 00:12:21,956 --> 00:12:25,236 Speaker 1: When you talk about sound and you use your hands too, 202 00:12:25,436 --> 00:12:29,636 Speaker 1: you really think of it spatially. Is that because you're 203 00:12:29,676 --> 00:12:32,676 Speaker 1: a visual artist as well? I think so, But I've 204 00:12:32,676 --> 00:12:35,396 Speaker 1: always felt that way in the studio, like even on Guyville, 205 00:12:35,436 --> 00:12:39,276 Speaker 1: I was doing that. It just immediately hit me when 206 00:12:39,276 --> 00:12:41,876 Speaker 1: I first learned how to work in a recording studio 207 00:12:41,996 --> 00:12:44,876 Speaker 1: that that's what we were doing. We were placing things 208 00:12:44,876 --> 00:12:48,156 Speaker 1: on a canvas, but it was spherical. It was spatial. 209 00:12:48,636 --> 00:12:52,436 Speaker 1: We were building an imaginary atmosphere, or an imaginary room, 210 00:12:52,556 --> 00:12:58,116 Speaker 1: or an imaginary performance. And because I guess my ears 211 00:12:58,116 --> 00:13:00,996 Speaker 1: are very sensitive, I wanted to reflect the way the 212 00:13:01,036 --> 00:13:03,516 Speaker 1: world sounds to me, which is full. You know, the 213 00:13:03,556 --> 00:13:05,516 Speaker 1: birds are going, this is going, that's going. I'm very 214 00:13:05,556 --> 00:13:08,636 Speaker 1: distracted by all that. It's hard for me in restaurants 215 00:13:08,636 --> 00:13:12,876 Speaker 1: because I'm hearing everybody's conversations, you know, like it's hard 216 00:13:12,916 --> 00:13:16,076 Speaker 1: to just focus on the one thing I'm hearing. So 217 00:13:16,116 --> 00:13:18,076 Speaker 1: I guess I'm more and more trying to reflect that. 218 00:13:18,596 --> 00:13:25,076 Speaker 1: We'll be right back after a quick break. We're back 219 00:13:25,076 --> 00:13:27,996 Speaker 1: with more from Liz Phair and Bruce DLin. Now, I 220 00:13:28,076 --> 00:13:30,396 Speaker 1: just want to go back to you. Growing up, your 221 00:13:30,436 --> 00:13:34,276 Speaker 1: mother was involved in art, your father was an infectious 222 00:13:34,316 --> 00:13:38,396 Speaker 1: disease specialist, which means you've probably had some smart thoughts 223 00:13:38,396 --> 00:13:41,316 Speaker 1: over the past year as we all lived through the pandemic. 224 00:13:41,596 --> 00:13:44,516 Speaker 1: When did music start for you, though. I mean I 225 00:13:44,556 --> 00:13:49,196 Speaker 1: took piano lessons when I was five. Then then I 226 00:13:49,236 --> 00:13:52,636 Speaker 1: began to take guitar lessons in seventh and eighth grade, 227 00:13:53,236 --> 00:13:57,916 Speaker 1: classical at first, then folk, and then as it became 228 00:13:57,956 --> 00:14:00,196 Speaker 1: more apparent to my guitar teacher that I was not 229 00:14:00,276 --> 00:14:03,076 Speaker 1: interested in learning notes, and you know, I'd had it 230 00:14:03,196 --> 00:14:07,316 Speaker 1: with that kind of formalized musical. And she says she 231 00:14:07,436 --> 00:14:10,236 Speaker 1: told my mother. She said she lived across the street 232 00:14:10,276 --> 00:14:13,516 Speaker 1: from us in Winnetka, and she said, she keeps asking 233 00:14:13,556 --> 00:14:15,956 Speaker 1: me to play it for her. I don't think she's 234 00:14:15,996 --> 00:14:19,436 Speaker 1: reading the music. I think she's imitating me. And she 235 00:14:19,516 --> 00:14:22,396 Speaker 1: realized I had a very good ear. And my guitar 236 00:14:22,436 --> 00:14:24,876 Speaker 1: teacher said, as well, you know, I was tired of 237 00:14:25,036 --> 00:14:28,156 Speaker 1: James Taylor and Dan Fogelberg, you know, not my choices. 238 00:14:28,796 --> 00:14:31,236 Speaker 1: And she said, if you bring me, I'll cut you 239 00:14:31,276 --> 00:14:33,316 Speaker 1: a deal. I won't tell your mother, and if you 240 00:14:33,356 --> 00:14:36,916 Speaker 1: bring me in one originally written song a week, we 241 00:14:36,996 --> 00:14:40,076 Speaker 1: will continue our guitar lessons. So that's really when it began, 242 00:14:40,276 --> 00:14:42,076 Speaker 1: this sort of And I would do the same thing 243 00:14:42,116 --> 00:14:44,756 Speaker 1: when my mother wanted me to practice. She'd be cooking 244 00:14:44,756 --> 00:14:46,916 Speaker 1: in the kitchen and I didn't want to practice, so 245 00:14:46,956 --> 00:14:49,236 Speaker 1: I'd make up my own songs on the piano, and 246 00:14:49,276 --> 00:14:51,756 Speaker 1: as long as I was doing something on an instrument, 247 00:14:51,836 --> 00:14:54,476 Speaker 1: all these people seem to be okay with it. So 248 00:14:54,516 --> 00:14:56,196 Speaker 1: I would say from a very young age, and my 249 00:14:56,276 --> 00:14:59,876 Speaker 1: parents are so they're not musical in terms of performing, 250 00:14:59,916 --> 00:15:03,516 Speaker 1: but they enjoy music. It was. It filled our house. 251 00:15:03,796 --> 00:15:06,356 Speaker 1: It's part of every meal. I don't think we sit 252 00:15:06,396 --> 00:15:08,636 Speaker 1: down to a meal together without music in the background. 253 00:15:09,156 --> 00:15:12,636 Speaker 1: And they took us to concerts, and you know, we 254 00:15:12,676 --> 00:15:16,716 Speaker 1: went to symphony we went to musical theater productions. It 255 00:15:16,796 --> 00:15:19,316 Speaker 1: was just always a big part of life. Was there 256 00:15:19,356 --> 00:15:21,676 Speaker 1: a particular pop song or something you heard in the 257 00:15:21,796 --> 00:15:24,356 Speaker 1: radio that at one point just said, wait a second, 258 00:15:24,396 --> 00:15:26,956 Speaker 1: I want to do that. This is the truthful answer, 259 00:15:26,996 --> 00:15:29,476 Speaker 1: but I'm not sure it's what you're looking for, or 260 00:15:29,516 --> 00:15:32,716 Speaker 1: maybe I'm not as impressed with it. But I also 261 00:15:32,756 --> 00:15:37,396 Speaker 1: sang choir in our church. So I began to think 262 00:15:37,396 --> 00:15:40,756 Speaker 1: that I wanted to write a classic Christmas carol, and 263 00:15:40,836 --> 00:15:43,116 Speaker 1: I thought like that would be a really good thing 264 00:15:43,236 --> 00:15:47,836 Speaker 1: to do. It was to write a new classic Christmas carol, 265 00:15:47,956 --> 00:15:50,956 Speaker 1: like as as Stupid as Jingle Bells or as you 266 00:15:50,996 --> 00:15:54,556 Speaker 1: know beautiful as a little town of Bethlehem. Just something 267 00:15:55,236 --> 00:15:57,316 Speaker 1: I loved to put the lights up in my room. 268 00:15:57,396 --> 00:16:01,076 Speaker 1: And our church had a big, huge pageant. It was 269 00:16:01,236 --> 00:16:05,116 Speaker 1: very Anglican because we all dressed up, you want to think, 270 00:16:05,156 --> 00:16:08,276 Speaker 1: like Henry the Eighth type banquet that we all went 271 00:16:08,316 --> 00:16:10,556 Speaker 1: to and like in the light and we were in 272 00:16:10,636 --> 00:16:13,196 Speaker 1: page and tights and we did tumbling and singing and 273 00:16:13,356 --> 00:16:16,316 Speaker 1: stuff like that. And we lived in England for a year, 274 00:16:16,476 --> 00:16:19,436 Speaker 1: so like, it all felt very kind of But yes, 275 00:16:19,756 --> 00:16:22,556 Speaker 1: I wanted to write a classic Christmas carol. So that's 276 00:16:22,596 --> 00:16:25,956 Speaker 1: the first time I remember formally sitting down and say 277 00:16:25,996 --> 00:16:28,276 Speaker 1: I'm going to do something professional. And I must have 278 00:16:28,316 --> 00:16:30,356 Speaker 1: been a freshman in high school or an eighth grade 279 00:16:30,476 --> 00:16:33,396 Speaker 1: something like that. Have you ever written a Christmas Carol? 280 00:16:33,916 --> 00:16:37,996 Speaker 1: I wrote a funny dystopian one for Amazon Music like 281 00:16:38,156 --> 00:16:40,516 Speaker 1: ten years ago, and I like it. I think it's 282 00:16:40,596 --> 00:16:44,956 Speaker 1: kind of a off pieced Christmas classic. So yeah, I 283 00:16:44,996 --> 00:16:48,116 Speaker 1: guess I have. It's called Ho Ho Ho. I think 284 00:16:48,116 --> 00:16:50,756 Speaker 1: I remember that. But I want to ask you about 285 00:16:50,756 --> 00:16:54,236 Speaker 1: your guitar playing, because your guitar playing is so distinct. 286 00:16:54,636 --> 00:16:57,876 Speaker 1: You don't play the way other people play. Maybe it's 287 00:16:57,876 --> 00:16:59,996 Speaker 1: because you do you write in the guitar as well? 288 00:17:00,236 --> 00:17:03,316 Speaker 1: I do, yeah, okay, because there's a lot of interesting 289 00:17:03,356 --> 00:17:05,756 Speaker 1: chords and modulations you use that I don't think someone 290 00:17:05,836 --> 00:17:08,516 Speaker 1: writing at a piano would use. So first of all, 291 00:17:08,516 --> 00:17:10,516 Speaker 1: where did the rhythm come from? How did you develop 292 00:17:10,596 --> 00:17:14,236 Speaker 1: that sense of playing? It's innate. I mean, it's hard 293 00:17:14,236 --> 00:17:17,156 Speaker 1: to explain because it's not conscious. As much as I've 294 00:17:17,156 --> 00:17:20,476 Speaker 1: just told you this whole long history of musical training, 295 00:17:21,596 --> 00:17:24,396 Speaker 1: that wasn't what my focus was. I was a visual artist, 296 00:17:24,556 --> 00:17:26,476 Speaker 1: and I knew that I wanted to be that, and 297 00:17:26,556 --> 00:17:29,276 Speaker 1: I wanted to be a professional visual artist from a 298 00:17:29,356 --> 00:17:32,636 Speaker 1: very young age, and I took that very seriously, and 299 00:17:32,796 --> 00:17:35,956 Speaker 1: music was just more of what I don't know. I 300 00:17:35,996 --> 00:17:38,116 Speaker 1: came from a family that you were supposed to do stuff. 301 00:17:38,156 --> 00:17:41,356 Speaker 1: You're supposed to do sports, you're supposed to do arts, 302 00:17:41,676 --> 00:17:44,516 Speaker 1: you're supposed to help in the community. So in my 303 00:17:44,636 --> 00:17:49,196 Speaker 1: basket was music. But I see the guitar as an 304 00:17:49,236 --> 00:17:53,076 Speaker 1: object that makes sound, all different kinds of sound, and 305 00:17:53,276 --> 00:17:57,316 Speaker 1: all different positions make different sounds, and fingers make different sounds. 306 00:17:57,756 --> 00:18:01,476 Speaker 1: And most people learn chords. I couldn't tell you what 307 00:18:01,596 --> 00:18:04,236 Speaker 1: chords I was playing or what key I'm in to 308 00:18:04,356 --> 00:18:06,836 Speaker 1: this day if my life depended on it. Really, I 309 00:18:06,876 --> 00:18:09,436 Speaker 1: have no idea and I have no interest in it. 310 00:18:10,236 --> 00:18:15,476 Speaker 1: So you couldn't tell me the chords in Halu And no, really, 311 00:18:15,596 --> 00:18:18,556 Speaker 1: I have to relearn all my songs. I'm so prolific 312 00:18:18,636 --> 00:18:21,916 Speaker 1: that I have to relearn every song I've ever written 313 00:18:22,036 --> 00:18:24,556 Speaker 1: for tour. I don't know them any better than the 314 00:18:24,596 --> 00:18:26,196 Speaker 1: band does. I have to go back and figure out 315 00:18:26,196 --> 00:18:28,796 Speaker 1: what I was doing. Luckily, there's a muscle memory, and 316 00:18:28,836 --> 00:18:30,756 Speaker 1: I know the kind of shapes I like to make 317 00:18:30,876 --> 00:18:35,516 Speaker 1: on the fretboard, but it's all instinctive, and it's all 318 00:18:35,556 --> 00:18:37,876 Speaker 1: about the ears, and it's the same in the recordings. 319 00:18:37,876 --> 00:18:40,196 Speaker 1: To whatever sound I need, I'll figure out a way 320 00:18:40,196 --> 00:18:42,156 Speaker 1: to get it if it's up if I've been playing. 321 00:18:42,916 --> 00:18:45,356 Speaker 1: I mean, I sound like a crazy person, and maybe 322 00:18:45,356 --> 00:18:48,636 Speaker 1: I am, but I just have had an always innate 323 00:18:48,756 --> 00:18:51,836 Speaker 1: sense with creativity that I had the authority to do 324 00:18:51,916 --> 00:18:53,956 Speaker 1: it my own way. I don't know if that's from 325 00:18:53,956 --> 00:18:58,116 Speaker 1: my parents encouraging me or how I got that, but 326 00:18:58,316 --> 00:19:02,916 Speaker 1: in all respects, I'm sort of an untrained expert. No, 327 00:19:03,036 --> 00:19:05,956 Speaker 1: it makes sense. I'm just amazed that. I mean, I 328 00:19:05,956 --> 00:19:09,436 Speaker 1: guess Paul McCartney still can't write music, and you know, 329 00:19:09,516 --> 00:19:11,796 Speaker 1: lots of people still just have a feel for it. 330 00:19:11,836 --> 00:19:14,356 Speaker 1: I just didn't know that was the way you wrote. Yeah, 331 00:19:14,396 --> 00:19:17,476 Speaker 1: and it's all about my ears. I hear very very 332 00:19:17,596 --> 00:19:21,276 Speaker 1: very well, too well. How do you mean too well? 333 00:19:21,756 --> 00:19:24,036 Speaker 1: If people are moving around the house, I hear it, 334 00:19:24,236 --> 00:19:27,516 Speaker 1: you know, I just hear everything. I'm like, oh, you 335 00:19:27,556 --> 00:19:31,396 Speaker 1: can't block it out, can't block it out. It's distracting. 336 00:19:31,436 --> 00:19:34,036 Speaker 1: Like when the wind blows. I can't handle windy days. 337 00:19:34,076 --> 00:19:36,196 Speaker 1: I don't like it. It irritates me. I could be 338 00:19:36,236 --> 00:19:37,796 Speaker 1: out in the wind, but if I'm in a house 339 00:19:37,796 --> 00:19:40,116 Speaker 1: and the windows are rattling, I can't get any work 340 00:19:40,156 --> 00:19:44,316 Speaker 1: done because I'm just like too much sensory information. To 341 00:19:44,396 --> 00:19:47,796 Speaker 1: this day, you use a lot of unusual progressions, things 342 00:19:48,276 --> 00:19:51,676 Speaker 1: more trained musicians would shy away from. And was that 343 00:19:51,876 --> 00:19:54,956 Speaker 1: purely just you in the instrument, or were there songs 344 00:19:54,996 --> 00:19:56,796 Speaker 1: you were hearing that did things like that that you 345 00:19:57,316 --> 00:20:00,516 Speaker 1: wanted to emulate, or was it simply you with a guitar. 346 00:20:01,076 --> 00:20:05,076 Speaker 1: I never consciously emulate anything. I think there are times 347 00:20:05,116 --> 00:20:08,436 Speaker 1: when in the studio it's helpful to bring in to 348 00:20:08,436 --> 00:20:11,836 Speaker 1: find a comm and language. I will emulate in the 349 00:20:11,956 --> 00:20:14,836 Speaker 1: studio because it's the simplest way I've found to convey 350 00:20:14,876 --> 00:20:17,316 Speaker 1: what I want. I'll say, you know how this song 351 00:20:17,396 --> 00:20:19,916 Speaker 1: has this, but I'm actually going back after the song 352 00:20:20,036 --> 00:20:23,516 Speaker 1: is written, trying to communicate with a producer by finding 353 00:20:23,556 --> 00:20:27,156 Speaker 1: a song in the popular repertoire that has the thing 354 00:20:27,196 --> 00:20:30,116 Speaker 1: I want that I can't put into words. So I'll 355 00:20:30,116 --> 00:20:31,916 Speaker 1: bring in a song into the studio and say, like, 356 00:20:31,996 --> 00:20:35,956 Speaker 1: let's do something like this, because it's a communication thing. 357 00:20:36,356 --> 00:20:41,036 Speaker 1: But it never sit down to write and consciously imitate something. 358 00:20:41,636 --> 00:20:45,236 Speaker 1: But I'm sure, in fact, I know that it's been 359 00:20:45,796 --> 00:20:48,756 Speaker 1: you know, my love of music has come in, been digested. 360 00:20:49,276 --> 00:20:52,596 Speaker 1: My subconscious is holding onto it and it spits it 361 00:20:52,636 --> 00:20:56,996 Speaker 1: back out through my hands and through the instrument. So 362 00:20:57,116 --> 00:21:00,116 Speaker 1: writing for you is always just you with a guitar, yes, 363 00:21:00,596 --> 00:21:04,676 Speaker 1: figuring things out, yes, and then the lyrics come later 364 00:21:05,036 --> 00:21:09,756 Speaker 1: or same time. Really, now, am I really that strange? 365 00:21:09,876 --> 00:21:11,996 Speaker 1: This is the first time in an interview that I've 366 00:21:11,996 --> 00:21:15,316 Speaker 1: sort of felt like I might be extremely out of 367 00:21:15,356 --> 00:21:17,996 Speaker 1: the norm or out of the mainstream here, like I've 368 00:21:18,036 --> 00:21:20,436 Speaker 1: never really I think a lot of musicians are that way, 369 00:21:20,476 --> 00:21:24,836 Speaker 1: aren't they? Or No, No, I think you're maybe further 370 00:21:24,956 --> 00:21:28,076 Speaker 1: along on that particular spectrum. But now I think that's 371 00:21:28,076 --> 00:21:31,236 Speaker 1: how most musicians do it. It's much more by feel, 372 00:21:31,436 --> 00:21:34,436 Speaker 1: but that you don't even to this day you have 373 00:21:34,476 --> 00:21:36,516 Speaker 1: to go back and figure out your own songs by ears. 374 00:21:36,516 --> 00:21:39,436 Speaker 1: Really interesting to me. Do you ever go back and say, oh, 375 00:21:39,476 --> 00:21:42,036 Speaker 1: you can't figure it? Like? No, I've never not been 376 00:21:42,076 --> 00:21:45,116 Speaker 1: able to crack a song. I'm terrified each time that 377 00:21:45,156 --> 00:21:48,236 Speaker 1: I can't. Like when we did the box set, a 378 00:21:48,356 --> 00:21:52,476 Speaker 1: reissue of my first record, Exile in Guyville and all 379 00:21:52,516 --> 00:21:55,196 Speaker 1: the girly sound tapes, which were these cassette recordings I 380 00:21:55,276 --> 00:21:58,836 Speaker 1: made before I was discovered, so to speak. You know, 381 00:21:59,076 --> 00:22:02,236 Speaker 1: when I was just making wacky songs in the middle 382 00:22:02,236 --> 00:22:05,316 Speaker 1: of night for my own pleasure and some of those 383 00:22:05,436 --> 00:22:08,036 Speaker 1: you know, that was thirty years ago. How am I 384 00:22:08,036 --> 00:22:10,636 Speaker 1: going to figure out what I was playing? Luckily I 385 00:22:10,716 --> 00:22:12,716 Speaker 1: wasn't that great of a guitar player, so it turns 386 00:22:12,716 --> 00:22:15,836 Speaker 1: out like not that many leaps and bounds were made. 387 00:22:15,956 --> 00:22:19,276 Speaker 1: It wasn't that difficult. But half of what I know 388 00:22:19,436 --> 00:22:23,316 Speaker 1: to do is actually in my hands. Like my hands 389 00:22:23,356 --> 00:22:28,516 Speaker 1: have brains and they remember, and once I start doing something, 390 00:22:28,596 --> 00:22:31,196 Speaker 1: it's almost like a dance. Oh, I remember this dance. 391 00:22:31,796 --> 00:22:35,316 Speaker 1: It'll come back to me. You said once that the 392 00:22:35,436 --> 00:22:38,876 Speaker 1: best songs are the ones you write when you think 393 00:22:38,916 --> 00:22:41,156 Speaker 1: no one's going to listen. Is that still the case 394 00:22:41,196 --> 00:22:43,156 Speaker 1: for you? Are you able to sort of block out 395 00:22:43,156 --> 00:22:45,636 Speaker 1: the expectation that you know one day people are going 396 00:22:45,716 --> 00:22:48,636 Speaker 1: to listen to this. I think that's why I wait 397 00:22:48,716 --> 00:22:52,476 Speaker 1: so long in between records usually because I think the 398 00:22:52,596 --> 00:22:57,116 Speaker 1: more honest, vulnerable songs come when I am just in 399 00:22:57,156 --> 00:23:02,756 Speaker 1: a private space, a dream space, and that's how I 400 00:23:02,796 --> 00:23:06,396 Speaker 1: grew up writing songs. I think that's why I brought 401 00:23:06,436 --> 00:23:10,116 Speaker 1: in the idea that I was a visual artist intentionally, 402 00:23:10,756 --> 00:23:15,716 Speaker 1: because that left music as a play space, an inventive 403 00:23:15,796 --> 00:23:20,116 Speaker 1: place with no expectation of being heard. And I think 404 00:23:20,116 --> 00:23:22,596 Speaker 1: that's what people liked about my music in the beginning, 405 00:23:22,716 --> 00:23:26,556 Speaker 1: this kind of spontaneous. They may have taken it too 406 00:23:26,596 --> 00:23:29,476 Speaker 1: literally and thought it was just confessional when it was 407 00:23:29,476 --> 00:23:31,956 Speaker 1: actually a little more playful than that. But it's always 408 00:23:31,956 --> 00:23:34,196 Speaker 1: been a free space for me, and I fight to 409 00:23:34,236 --> 00:23:38,756 Speaker 1: try to keep that free space open. And the more 410 00:23:39,396 --> 00:23:43,756 Speaker 1: people expect something from you, or the more professional it becomes, 411 00:23:44,196 --> 00:23:48,396 Speaker 1: I think that dream space shrinks and you start to 412 00:23:48,476 --> 00:23:51,396 Speaker 1: become what I would call clever, and there's nothing I 413 00:23:51,476 --> 00:23:56,716 Speaker 1: hate more. I would prefer a half written, unfinished snippet 414 00:23:56,756 --> 00:23:59,836 Speaker 1: of an honest song than a clever song. And I'm 415 00:23:59,916 --> 00:24:03,996 Speaker 1: very capable of writing a clever, self conscious song, and 416 00:24:04,036 --> 00:24:07,436 Speaker 1: they're dead. They're so dead they're offensive to me. Like 417 00:24:07,436 --> 00:24:09,756 Speaker 1: when I write a clever song, I actually hate it. 418 00:24:10,076 --> 00:24:13,916 Speaker 1: What do you mean by clever? It means just too calculated. 419 00:24:14,676 --> 00:24:19,876 Speaker 1: It rhymes fantastically, and you know, the devices, the literary 420 00:24:19,916 --> 00:24:23,716 Speaker 1: devices are so swell, the turn of phrase and the 421 00:24:24,036 --> 00:24:26,916 Speaker 1: you know, the isn't that funny because you wouldn't get 422 00:24:26,996 --> 00:24:29,356 Speaker 1: from the verses that that's where I'm going in the chorus, 423 00:24:29,476 --> 00:24:35,076 Speaker 1: Like this kind of showmanship. And I would always choose 424 00:24:35,716 --> 00:24:39,276 Speaker 1: sometimes with grammar, like I know what correct grammar is, 425 00:24:39,396 --> 00:24:43,156 Speaker 1: but sometimes I will sing it incorrectly because it just 426 00:24:43,276 --> 00:24:47,236 Speaker 1: feels unpolished, feels more honest to me, and I'm attracted 427 00:24:47,276 --> 00:24:50,116 Speaker 1: to my own vulnerability. You have your conscious mind, and 428 00:24:50,196 --> 00:24:52,516 Speaker 1: you have your ambassador self that goes out in the 429 00:24:52,516 --> 00:24:55,676 Speaker 1: world and puts on the best show. And I'm not 430 00:24:55,756 --> 00:24:57,916 Speaker 1: interested in that. And that's what I would call a 431 00:24:57,956 --> 00:25:01,916 Speaker 1: clever song, writing from that that front facing you that 432 00:25:02,236 --> 00:25:05,676 Speaker 1: you know, we've all perfected to work in society if 433 00:25:05,716 --> 00:25:07,396 Speaker 1: it comes from there. And some of them are just 434 00:25:07,636 --> 00:25:11,756 Speaker 1: dazzlingly clever, like they really are clever, and I just 435 00:25:11,836 --> 00:25:14,716 Speaker 1: hate them. I'm only interested in the stuff that I 436 00:25:14,836 --> 00:25:17,676 Speaker 1: maybe don't even know about myself like that. There was 437 00:25:17,676 --> 00:25:20,236 Speaker 1: a period not long ago that I was writing and 438 00:25:20,316 --> 00:25:22,756 Speaker 1: I would I would weep every time I was writing 439 00:25:22,956 --> 00:25:25,316 Speaker 1: a song because I didn't even know I felt that 440 00:25:25,356 --> 00:25:28,476 Speaker 1: way about a person or about an experience. So it's 441 00:25:28,516 --> 00:25:31,916 Speaker 1: like this discovery. It's like going into a dark cave 442 00:25:31,956 --> 00:25:36,036 Speaker 1: and finding those crystals. There's somebody back there making sense 443 00:25:36,036 --> 00:25:38,796 Speaker 1: of it all and boiling it down to poetry, and 444 00:25:38,916 --> 00:25:43,316 Speaker 1: I'm on an expedition spelunking to find that person. There 445 00:25:43,396 --> 00:25:45,596 Speaker 1: was a rhyme and I don't even remember the song 446 00:25:45,996 --> 00:25:47,876 Speaker 1: when I was listening to your album, and it was 447 00:25:47,916 --> 00:25:52,876 Speaker 1: something Diamonds rhymed with behind us. It doesn't sound like 448 00:25:52,916 --> 00:25:55,156 Speaker 1: a rhymes when I say, but it worked perfectly in 449 00:25:55,196 --> 00:25:58,116 Speaker 1: the song, and I thought to use a bad word. 450 00:25:58,156 --> 00:26:03,956 Speaker 1: I thought, oh, that's really clever. No, it's But aren't 451 00:26:03,996 --> 00:26:07,436 Speaker 1: those the best those rhymes that are not rhymes or 452 00:26:07,476 --> 00:26:10,676 Speaker 1: the unexpected rhymes? Like I guess they are clever, but 453 00:26:10,716 --> 00:26:15,876 Speaker 1: they didn't come out cleverly. My professional, front facing self 454 00:26:15,916 --> 00:26:21,156 Speaker 1: did not write that. You know, my open, exposed self, 455 00:26:21,756 --> 00:26:25,276 Speaker 1: my deepest self. Don't you ever find it fascinating? And 456 00:26:25,996 --> 00:26:28,156 Speaker 1: I think it's the closest I ever get to actually 457 00:26:28,316 --> 00:26:32,956 Speaker 1: religious faith, that there is a deeper truth inside of 458 00:26:32,996 --> 00:26:37,276 Speaker 1: you that only certain circumstances can unlock or can open up. 459 00:26:37,996 --> 00:26:43,116 Speaker 1: And it actually makes sense, And there's an order in there, 460 00:26:43,436 --> 00:26:47,356 Speaker 1: deep in there. Maybe it's an emotional order, but someone's 461 00:26:47,796 --> 00:26:49,956 Speaker 1: making sense of it all and boiling it down to 462 00:26:50,036 --> 00:26:53,676 Speaker 1: the most profound part of you. And whenever I can 463 00:26:53,676 --> 00:26:57,796 Speaker 1: connect to that part, it just feels so damn good 464 00:26:57,836 --> 00:27:01,116 Speaker 1: and so life affirming. I guess I have those, but 465 00:27:01,196 --> 00:27:06,156 Speaker 1: I find those periods very almost hallucinatory. That's that trippy 466 00:27:06,316 --> 00:27:09,876 Speaker 1: flow sensation. That's what I'm talking about. I live for that. 467 00:27:10,316 --> 00:27:12,876 Speaker 1: You said you want to preserve that space. Now you have, 468 00:27:13,676 --> 00:27:17,716 Speaker 1: I think because of the expectations after your first album, 469 00:27:17,836 --> 00:27:24,116 Speaker 1: you have had more than your fair share of harsh criticism. 470 00:27:24,156 --> 00:27:27,116 Speaker 1: How do you keep that space for yourself? Then a good, 471 00:27:27,316 --> 00:27:32,996 Speaker 1: solid grounded private life. I keep old friends even when 472 00:27:33,036 --> 00:27:36,276 Speaker 1: they drive me absolutely up a wall, and there's many 473 00:27:36,356 --> 00:27:39,756 Speaker 1: times in my you know, but I keep the person 474 00:27:39,796 --> 00:27:43,756 Speaker 1: that I've always been close to me. So in one 475 00:27:43,836 --> 00:27:46,716 Speaker 1: space of my life, I'm not a rock star at all, 476 00:27:46,996 --> 00:27:49,396 Speaker 1: and I like it that way. You know, I'm still 477 00:27:49,756 --> 00:27:52,356 Speaker 1: the sort of smaller with my tall, bossy friends. You know, 478 00:27:52,396 --> 00:27:54,236 Speaker 1: I'm still the one that's like, well, where are we going? 479 00:27:54,356 --> 00:27:56,716 Speaker 1: Well what's happening? You know, Like I'm not the leader 480 00:27:57,276 --> 00:27:59,836 Speaker 1: of my pack of friends by any stretch. Like I 481 00:28:00,036 --> 00:28:02,476 Speaker 1: just thinking about this the other day. In almost all 482 00:28:02,516 --> 00:28:05,836 Speaker 1: my friend circles, I'm not the leader, you know, But 483 00:28:05,916 --> 00:28:09,156 Speaker 1: here I am the rock star in my career. But 484 00:28:09,196 --> 00:28:11,476 Speaker 1: I'm the same person that I was when I was nine, 485 00:28:11,876 --> 00:28:15,556 Speaker 1: So I have this other life. It hurts when you 486 00:28:15,676 --> 00:28:18,956 Speaker 1: try to do something and everybody hates it, and they 487 00:28:18,996 --> 00:28:21,836 Speaker 1: point out something that you didn't even see coming as 488 00:28:21,876 --> 00:28:25,796 Speaker 1: some transgression that you've done that is offensive. That always 489 00:28:25,796 --> 00:28:29,596 Speaker 1: feels like, you know, you've been slapped unexpectedly. But it 490 00:28:29,636 --> 00:28:33,556 Speaker 1: doesn't rock me to my core because I think, via 491 00:28:33,636 --> 00:28:36,716 Speaker 1: my parents and their group of friends and our extended 492 00:28:36,756 --> 00:28:41,316 Speaker 1: family and the relationships that I've kept my whole life, 493 00:28:42,116 --> 00:28:44,996 Speaker 1: that's not what's going to unman me. You know what 494 00:28:45,036 --> 00:28:47,876 Speaker 1: I mean, that's just gonna suck for a really long while, 495 00:28:48,076 --> 00:28:51,316 Speaker 1: but like there's still a me behind that me that 496 00:28:51,516 --> 00:28:55,236 Speaker 1: is intact. After a quick break, we'll be back with 497 00:28:55,276 --> 00:29:01,196 Speaker 1: more from Liz Phair. We're back with the rest of 498 00:29:01,196 --> 00:29:04,876 Speaker 1: Bruce Headlam's conversation with Liz Phair. The other thing I 499 00:29:04,916 --> 00:29:07,116 Speaker 1: wanted to ask you about was writing melodies. And you 500 00:29:07,156 --> 00:29:10,156 Speaker 1: may say it just flow, it just comes out, but 501 00:29:10,476 --> 00:29:14,116 Speaker 1: they're very angular and different. Do you spend a lot 502 00:29:14,156 --> 00:29:16,796 Speaker 1: of time and you're on your melodies. Is that something 503 00:29:16,876 --> 00:29:21,396 Speaker 1: you think about more consciously than the other things? Don't 504 00:29:21,436 --> 00:29:24,436 Speaker 1: get mad, but I don't. They just come flying out 505 00:29:24,436 --> 00:29:28,196 Speaker 1: of me. I'm like a songbird and I am very 506 00:29:28,196 --> 00:29:30,836 Speaker 1: proud of my melodies, and nobody ever talks about them, 507 00:29:30,956 --> 00:29:35,596 Speaker 1: so thank you for bringing it up. I feel that 508 00:29:35,596 --> 00:29:40,756 Speaker 1: that is one of my chief most gifts. My melody 509 00:29:41,076 --> 00:29:44,036 Speaker 1: ability is something I'm very proud of that doesn't get 510 00:29:44,596 --> 00:29:47,316 Speaker 1: talked about a lot. Well, they're original, they don't sound 511 00:29:47,356 --> 00:29:50,036 Speaker 1: like other people's. I'm very gratified to hear that. I 512 00:29:51,156 --> 00:29:54,316 Speaker 1: love melodies. I love singing, and I started to think 513 00:29:54,356 --> 00:29:59,476 Speaker 1: consciously about it when I went into television composition. I 514 00:29:59,516 --> 00:30:02,996 Speaker 1: remember listening to an NPR program. I think it was 515 00:30:03,036 --> 00:30:07,116 Speaker 1: coming out of USC Classical and they're talking about they're 516 00:30:07,156 --> 00:30:11,676 Speaker 1: interviewing someone who composed for musicals, and he said, if 517 00:30:11,756 --> 00:30:15,156 Speaker 1: you can't take away the words and still understand what 518 00:30:15,196 --> 00:30:20,556 Speaker 1: the song is expressing, you haven't finished that piece, that 519 00:30:20,556 --> 00:30:24,796 Speaker 1: that song is not complete, or that's the goal, that 520 00:30:25,036 --> 00:30:29,556 Speaker 1: without words, it should still convey everything you want. And 521 00:30:29,596 --> 00:30:31,236 Speaker 1: of course I hear that and I think, well, what 522 00:30:31,276 --> 00:30:32,876 Speaker 1: if you did the opposite, you know what I mean? 523 00:30:32,916 --> 00:30:34,796 Speaker 1: Like then I start to want to get playful with it. 524 00:30:34,876 --> 00:30:38,276 Speaker 1: But I've always remembered that as being incredibly important, that 525 00:30:38,396 --> 00:30:44,156 Speaker 1: the melody should reflect the emotion with no other data 526 00:30:44,236 --> 00:30:46,556 Speaker 1: at all. You should be able to understand the song 527 00:30:47,796 --> 00:30:53,716 Speaker 1: simply from its fluidity. You wrote television music for a 528 00:30:53,716 --> 00:30:56,476 Speaker 1: couple of years. You did the nine O two and 529 00:30:56,636 --> 00:31:00,076 Speaker 1: O reboot. We did a bunch of shows. We did 530 00:31:00,076 --> 00:31:04,836 Speaker 1: a sort of anyone that would take us. Was it fun? Yeah, 531 00:31:05,196 --> 00:31:09,916 Speaker 1: it really was. I had that epiphany moment and my 532 00:31:09,996 --> 00:31:13,516 Speaker 1: friend Doc, who was my scoring partner, there were three 533 00:31:13,556 --> 00:31:16,156 Speaker 1: of us. We love to remember that moment where I 534 00:31:16,196 --> 00:31:18,916 Speaker 1: was the picture was on the big screen and I 535 00:31:18,956 --> 00:31:22,716 Speaker 1: was just playing piano to it, and something very simple, 536 00:31:22,756 --> 00:31:25,196 Speaker 1: and I looked at him, I'm like, this is great, 537 00:31:25,676 --> 00:31:29,196 Speaker 1: you know, like we were filling in the emotion for 538 00:31:29,236 --> 00:31:33,676 Speaker 1: what was on camera while it was playing. And it 539 00:31:33,756 --> 00:31:36,316 Speaker 1: was an entirely new sensation in a new way to 540 00:31:36,476 --> 00:31:38,916 Speaker 1: flex creativity. And I never took it as far as 541 00:31:38,916 --> 00:31:42,196 Speaker 1: I would have liked. I was hampered by my dislike 542 00:31:42,316 --> 00:31:44,876 Speaker 1: of equipment, so I always had to work with someone. 543 00:31:45,676 --> 00:31:49,996 Speaker 1: There's always someone in between me and composing. But it's 544 00:31:50,036 --> 00:31:52,796 Speaker 1: the essence of what I do as a songwriter. I 545 00:31:52,836 --> 00:31:56,716 Speaker 1: am filling in emotion to your blank spaces. You're living 546 00:31:56,756 --> 00:31:59,756 Speaker 1: your life, and I'm providing you the emotional component to 547 00:31:59,836 --> 00:32:02,836 Speaker 1: go along with whatever you're experiencing. And that's why you 548 00:32:02,916 --> 00:32:05,836 Speaker 1: choose this song or that song. You need someone to 549 00:32:05,996 --> 00:32:09,476 Speaker 1: score your life. And that's sort of what the sense 550 00:32:09,716 --> 00:32:13,836 Speaker 1: is of what I aspire to do. What I hope 551 00:32:13,996 --> 00:32:17,236 Speaker 1: my records will fulfill for people, that I will become 552 00:32:17,316 --> 00:32:20,756 Speaker 1: part of the score of their experiences in their life. 553 00:32:21,276 --> 00:32:25,436 Speaker 1: So to do it professionally directly was I never got 554 00:32:25,476 --> 00:32:28,756 Speaker 1: tired of it. Really, you do it again, I would, 555 00:32:28,796 --> 00:32:30,716 Speaker 1: and I had to do lots of the stupid stuff 556 00:32:30,716 --> 00:32:32,116 Speaker 1: that I don't have to do as a rock star, 557 00:32:32,276 --> 00:32:34,836 Speaker 1: like go to meetings and take notes and listen to 558 00:32:34,876 --> 00:32:37,556 Speaker 1: bosses like I had to do. All that stuff never 559 00:32:37,596 --> 00:32:39,556 Speaker 1: bothered me. I thought it was really fun, you know, 560 00:32:40,156 --> 00:32:44,036 Speaker 1: occasionally when there would be power plays going on shocking 561 00:32:44,396 --> 00:32:47,996 Speaker 1: in the TV world, like if someone falls off a 562 00:32:48,036 --> 00:32:52,236 Speaker 1: project for various personal reasons, the power fighting between the 563 00:32:52,436 --> 00:32:54,996 Speaker 1: people left behind, trying to step on each other to 564 00:32:55,036 --> 00:32:57,716 Speaker 1: be the new authority, like I can take over the show, 565 00:32:57,756 --> 00:33:00,236 Speaker 1: like don't hire an outside show runner. I'll show you 566 00:33:00,276 --> 00:33:01,996 Speaker 1: that I can do it. And then they made us 567 00:33:02,036 --> 00:33:06,436 Speaker 1: do all these changes because these people were fighting, I mean, scrappy, 568 00:33:06,516 --> 00:33:10,276 Speaker 1: scrappy business. I didn't like that. Did it help you 569 00:33:10,596 --> 00:33:12,796 Speaker 1: writing pop songs again? Did it give you just a 570 00:33:12,836 --> 00:33:15,836 Speaker 1: new fresh way of thinking about it? No? I think 571 00:33:15,876 --> 00:33:21,516 Speaker 1: it gave me an idea of an entirely different industry's 572 00:33:21,556 --> 00:33:25,516 Speaker 1: strengths and weaknesses. I think I just came away from 573 00:33:25,516 --> 00:33:31,396 Speaker 1: that experience thinking about power in studios and how many 574 00:33:31,396 --> 00:33:35,596 Speaker 1: people work on a production and how things get done 575 00:33:35,636 --> 00:33:40,116 Speaker 1: and why something's green lit and everyone's taking notes from 576 00:33:40,116 --> 00:33:44,916 Speaker 1: other people, like just the arduousness of that process. I 577 00:33:44,996 --> 00:33:50,116 Speaker 1: thought a lot about emotional turns. I watched directors come 578 00:33:50,156 --> 00:33:53,116 Speaker 1: in or showrunners and say like, let's turn this scene 579 00:33:53,836 --> 00:33:57,476 Speaker 1: on this emotion. I mean I actually I prefer to 580 00:33:57,636 --> 00:34:03,156 Speaker 1: work with less people and just be more direct about creativity. 581 00:34:03,356 --> 00:34:08,036 Speaker 1: It's hard to deal with all those agendas and you 582 00:34:08,156 --> 00:34:11,796 Speaker 1: end up sometimes with the compromised product. So when you 583 00:34:11,836 --> 00:34:15,036 Speaker 1: see a breakthrough thing like Fleabag or I May Destroy You, 584 00:34:15,156 --> 00:34:19,276 Speaker 1: or something that's just pure, it's one vision, it's so 585 00:34:19,356 --> 00:34:24,236 Speaker 1: attractive because it just feels like a bolt of lightning 586 00:34:24,596 --> 00:34:27,276 Speaker 1: shot through the industry. And I have a much greater 587 00:34:27,316 --> 00:34:30,476 Speaker 1: appreciation of that kind of art making now after having 588 00:34:30,556 --> 00:34:34,356 Speaker 1: seen the studio process. Yeah, do you relate to those 589 00:34:34,396 --> 00:34:36,516 Speaker 1: kind of productions, because really that's a lot of what 590 00:34:36,516 --> 00:34:39,716 Speaker 1: you've done in your career. Yes, I feel like that's 591 00:34:39,716 --> 00:34:41,836 Speaker 1: what I always want to be, no matter what's going 592 00:34:41,876 --> 00:34:44,436 Speaker 1: on in the culture. I want to be a bolt 593 00:34:44,436 --> 00:34:47,956 Speaker 1: of lightning that shoots right through it with like one vision. 594 00:34:48,996 --> 00:34:51,756 Speaker 1: You think this new album does that, I don't know. 595 00:34:52,036 --> 00:34:54,916 Speaker 1: I mean it does for what I wanted it to do, 596 00:34:55,636 --> 00:35:00,476 Speaker 1: So we'll see you never do know. I suspect it 597 00:35:00,516 --> 00:35:03,996 Speaker 1: will take a second for people to go, oh, she's 598 00:35:04,236 --> 00:35:07,956 Speaker 1: new again, like there's a different sound again, which no 599 00:35:07,956 --> 00:35:11,116 Speaker 1: one ever wants they just want Guyville. But I do 600 00:35:11,276 --> 00:35:14,836 Speaker 1: think that there's a very strong through line in Soubrush. 601 00:35:14,996 --> 00:35:18,196 Speaker 1: It is what it is, and it has been created 602 00:35:19,036 --> 00:35:23,716 Speaker 1: to be exactly like it is, So sink or swim, 603 00:35:23,756 --> 00:35:26,516 Speaker 1: we do not know. We shall see a couple of 604 00:35:26,556 --> 00:35:30,236 Speaker 1: times you have done You've written in answer to other 605 00:35:30,276 --> 00:35:35,636 Speaker 1: people's work. Famously, Guyville is your answer to Exile on 606 00:35:35,716 --> 00:35:38,596 Speaker 1: Main Street. And you did a project it wasn't released, 607 00:35:38,676 --> 00:35:40,956 Speaker 1: but it was an answer to the White Album. What 608 00:35:41,036 --> 00:35:44,916 Speaker 1: does that give you as a writer? So much I 609 00:35:44,956 --> 00:35:49,316 Speaker 1: feel almost like I have too much creativity and that 610 00:35:49,596 --> 00:35:56,436 Speaker 1: grounding in something that I can play with, something solid 611 00:35:56,716 --> 00:36:05,116 Speaker 1: and secure that is immutable, that then I can join with, oppose, inspect, 612 00:36:05,356 --> 00:36:07,956 Speaker 1: rock back and forth, you know, like I can try. 613 00:36:07,996 --> 00:36:10,996 Speaker 1: I have all these tools of ways to approach a 614 00:36:11,116 --> 00:36:14,676 Speaker 1: thing that is immutable, and I feel more free and 615 00:36:14,796 --> 00:36:19,956 Speaker 1: secure working my way around something that already exists than 616 00:36:19,996 --> 00:36:24,076 Speaker 1: I do with just wide open nothingness. The same thing 617 00:36:24,116 --> 00:36:26,276 Speaker 1: about like if someone gives you a blank page and 618 00:36:26,316 --> 00:36:31,396 Speaker 1: they say write something or draw something, it's so much 619 00:36:31,396 --> 00:36:33,596 Speaker 1: easier if they give you a triangle and say draw 620 00:36:33,676 --> 00:36:38,436 Speaker 1: something for me, or write something about and one of 621 00:36:38,436 --> 00:36:42,236 Speaker 1: the things that we can name him Ryan Adams. Before 622 00:36:42,276 --> 00:36:45,676 Speaker 1: we got into the studio together, he was a beautiful 623 00:36:46,276 --> 00:36:50,356 Speaker 1: sort of instigator of songwriting. He would say, write me 624 00:36:50,396 --> 00:36:53,756 Speaker 1: a song about Elvis, and he knew and I knew 625 00:36:54,316 --> 00:36:57,476 Speaker 1: that I was going to take that some totally unknown direction, 626 00:36:58,436 --> 00:37:01,676 Speaker 1: but the fact that he gave me one simple mandate, 627 00:37:02,036 --> 00:37:05,036 Speaker 1: not a lot of rules, not a lot of regulation, 628 00:37:05,476 --> 00:37:09,996 Speaker 1: just one simple mandate Elvis. And I turned it around 629 00:37:10,076 --> 00:37:12,036 Speaker 1: a number of ways. You know, it's like a dog. 630 00:37:12,116 --> 00:37:15,316 Speaker 1: I just like play with it. And I googled Elvis 631 00:37:15,316 --> 00:37:17,796 Speaker 1: and stuff, and I found this thing called Elvis legs. 632 00:37:18,476 --> 00:37:21,596 Speaker 1: Elvis legs is a phenomenon that happens to rock climbers 633 00:37:21,676 --> 00:37:24,556 Speaker 1: because they're so weakened that their legs just start doing 634 00:37:24,596 --> 00:37:28,876 Speaker 1: this Elvis thing. And I wrote this beautiful song about 635 00:37:29,676 --> 00:37:33,476 Speaker 1: The metaphor was You're on this cliff trying to ballet, 636 00:37:33,916 --> 00:37:36,076 Speaker 1: you know, over and I will help you ballet like 637 00:37:36,156 --> 00:37:40,836 Speaker 1: your Elvis legs good and reach the pegs on the 638 00:37:41,036 --> 00:37:48,116 Speaker 1: overhang of your secrets. I'm clipping into the anchor pin 639 00:37:48,436 --> 00:37:52,156 Speaker 1: and I will help you ballet. And so I turned 640 00:37:52,196 --> 00:37:55,156 Speaker 1: it all around into this guy that has so many 641 00:37:55,196 --> 00:37:57,756 Speaker 1: secrets that he's just like hanging onto the cliff edge, 642 00:37:57,836 --> 00:38:00,036 Speaker 1: like not knowing how to get out because he's told 643 00:38:00,076 --> 00:38:03,716 Speaker 1: so many lies, you know, and that I'm seeing him 644 00:38:03,756 --> 00:38:06,716 Speaker 1: out there. I mean the second course, I mean, the 645 00:38:06,756 --> 00:38:08,756 Speaker 1: second verse is just even more beautiful than that. And 646 00:38:08,796 --> 00:38:10,676 Speaker 1: I'm flipping in and I'm going to help him get 647 00:38:10,716 --> 00:38:13,636 Speaker 1: over to safety because he's just overdone it with the 648 00:38:13,716 --> 00:38:15,236 Speaker 1: lies and the secrets and he doesn't know how to 649 00:38:15,236 --> 00:38:18,076 Speaker 1: get off the cliff And how beautiful is that? Are 650 00:38:18,076 --> 00:38:21,116 Speaker 1: you going to tell me the second verse? You and 651 00:38:21,316 --> 00:38:29,116 Speaker 1: I we survive on the sheer wall of Hope Canyon 652 00:38:30,356 --> 00:38:34,956 Speaker 1: while the screamers fall. I will hear your call and 653 00:38:35,196 --> 00:38:39,196 Speaker 1: I will help you. Bilay. Oh, come on, you're not 654 00:38:39,236 --> 00:38:42,236 Speaker 1: going to release Elvis legs. It hasn't been recorded yet, 655 00:38:42,316 --> 00:38:44,676 Speaker 1: just in demo version. But like you and I, we 656 00:38:44,836 --> 00:38:50,076 Speaker 1: survive on the sheer wall of Hope Canyon while the 657 00:38:50,236 --> 00:38:53,516 Speaker 1: screamers fall. I will hear your call and I will 658 00:38:53,516 --> 00:38:58,076 Speaker 1: help you, Bilay. Not beautiful, it's it's well the screamers fall. 659 00:38:58,196 --> 00:39:01,796 Speaker 1: That's the line that it gets me. That's very good. 660 00:39:02,116 --> 00:39:05,756 Speaker 1: What's it like to react to? First of all, you 661 00:39:05,756 --> 00:39:08,196 Speaker 1: were reacting to Rolling Stone songs, and then you were 662 00:39:08,196 --> 00:39:11,756 Speaker 1: reacting to Beatles songs. Did you learn more about how 663 00:39:11,796 --> 00:39:14,036 Speaker 1: they put songs together in doing this or was it 664 00:39:14,076 --> 00:39:18,636 Speaker 1: more just almost a thematic thing. Like I'm thinking about 665 00:39:18,676 --> 00:39:22,116 Speaker 1: what the Rolling Stones meant and I'm answering them. I 666 00:39:22,156 --> 00:39:25,876 Speaker 1: think I owe the Beatles because my parents were big 667 00:39:25,876 --> 00:39:28,716 Speaker 1: fans when I was very little. I think I owe 668 00:39:28,716 --> 00:39:31,876 Speaker 1: them more of my subconscious than I owe the Stones. 669 00:39:32,076 --> 00:39:34,956 Speaker 1: I think Stones was something I arrived at later as 670 00:39:34,956 --> 00:39:39,436 Speaker 1: a young adult, and the Beatles got in there at 671 00:39:39,436 --> 00:39:43,356 Speaker 1: the very beginning, but it was more the earlier record, 672 00:39:43,716 --> 00:39:46,556 Speaker 1: you know, like maybe Sergeant Peppers is like deep and 673 00:39:46,716 --> 00:39:49,116 Speaker 1: my deepest subconscious. So I think I owe them my 674 00:39:49,196 --> 00:39:54,356 Speaker 1: melodies and some of my progressions, and probably some of 675 00:39:54,396 --> 00:40:00,316 Speaker 1: my lyrical flavors, maybe the playfulness and the imagery and 676 00:40:00,396 --> 00:40:04,516 Speaker 1: the storytelling. I was overawed by some of the songs 677 00:40:04,516 --> 00:40:06,156 Speaker 1: on the White Album and I thought like, there's no 678 00:40:06,196 --> 00:40:08,836 Speaker 1: way I can do this song. But some of them 679 00:40:08,836 --> 00:40:13,476 Speaker 1: I terrific responses for, like really just perfect and I'm 680 00:40:13,516 --> 00:40:16,796 Speaker 1: sorry it never got it never got. Made very proud 681 00:40:16,836 --> 00:40:18,756 Speaker 1: of some of that stuff. Yeah, do you know what 682 00:40:18,836 --> 00:40:21,636 Speaker 1: the to me I'm thinking now, the Liz Fair song 683 00:40:21,956 --> 00:40:25,596 Speaker 1: that they did was an album is a cry Baby Cry, 684 00:40:26,196 --> 00:40:31,756 Speaker 1: crab baby cry, make your mom huh old enough to 685 00:40:31,876 --> 00:40:34,836 Speaker 1: know better? Yeah, it does kind of doesn't sounds it 686 00:40:34,876 --> 00:40:36,716 Speaker 1: sounds like it sounds like one of your melodies. And 687 00:40:36,796 --> 00:40:39,836 Speaker 1: then the little descent after that. I think you have 688 00:40:39,876 --> 00:40:43,996 Speaker 1: to do that in concert now. Oh okay. One of 689 00:40:44,036 --> 00:40:45,796 Speaker 1: the things that really impressed me in your book, I 690 00:40:45,836 --> 00:40:48,596 Speaker 1: think you said in the in the introduction is something 691 00:40:48,636 --> 00:40:51,516 Speaker 1: that you were examining. It makes us stronger, basically to 692 00:40:51,636 --> 00:40:55,556 Speaker 1: examine our weaknesses. And what I found so compelling in 693 00:40:55,556 --> 00:41:00,716 Speaker 1: your book is it's not this catalog of evil or 694 00:41:00,796 --> 00:41:07,116 Speaker 1: cataclysmic events. It's little decisions that just kind of accumulate 695 00:41:07,596 --> 00:41:11,276 Speaker 1: over time. And you describe some very painful episodes in 696 00:41:11,316 --> 00:41:15,356 Speaker 1: your life very early. There's the Redbird Hollow, which is 697 00:41:15,396 --> 00:41:17,956 Speaker 1: just about you and your brother climbing a tree. It 698 00:41:18,036 --> 00:41:21,916 Speaker 1: seems very innocent and then it kind but it almost 699 00:41:21,956 --> 00:41:23,796 Speaker 1: sets the tone for the book. There's things getting a 700 00:41:23,836 --> 00:41:26,476 Speaker 1: little bit worse and you don't know the decisions are 701 00:41:26,476 --> 00:41:30,556 Speaker 1: going wrong, and then suddenly it goes terribly terribly wrong. 702 00:41:31,156 --> 00:41:33,876 Speaker 1: Get that flavor in your song sometimes too, that your 703 00:41:33,876 --> 00:41:36,396 Speaker 1: songs are instead of a whole story of a whole 704 00:41:36,476 --> 00:41:39,916 Speaker 1: arc you're right here in the song making this mistake. 705 00:41:40,036 --> 00:41:43,996 Speaker 1: And there's something kind of almost fatalistic about your songs 706 00:41:44,076 --> 00:41:47,356 Speaker 1: to me. Yeah, like your songs, they don't have the 707 00:41:47,356 --> 00:41:49,996 Speaker 1: whole story, but they've got that one part of the story. 708 00:41:50,556 --> 00:41:53,396 Speaker 1: I'm a big believer in endings. If I don't have 709 00:41:53,436 --> 00:41:57,236 Speaker 1: a satisfying ending, I get mad at this in other 710 00:41:57,276 --> 00:41:59,316 Speaker 1: people's art, and I get mad at in my own. 711 00:41:59,676 --> 00:42:03,436 Speaker 1: I really want to arrive somewhere with something to take 712 00:42:03,476 --> 00:42:05,956 Speaker 1: home with me, some kind of wisdom or something. So 713 00:42:06,316 --> 00:42:09,356 Speaker 1: the arc of things, where they start, where they land, 714 00:42:09,116 --> 00:42:11,996 Speaker 1: and is very important to me. I also, I think 715 00:42:11,996 --> 00:42:15,356 Speaker 1: you can tell this from horror stories. My memory is 716 00:42:15,476 --> 00:42:20,156 Speaker 1: filled with blank months where I don't remember a thing, 717 00:42:20,956 --> 00:42:27,716 Speaker 1: but I hold on to vivid moments, almost like a capture. 718 00:42:28,316 --> 00:42:32,076 Speaker 1: I can walk back into it, like inception, and move 719 00:42:32,156 --> 00:42:35,996 Speaker 1: through the whole thing. It's as if my brain has decided, 720 00:42:36,116 --> 00:42:39,916 Speaker 1: has elected to let go of most everything that doesn't 721 00:42:39,956 --> 00:42:43,316 Speaker 1: spike very high or spike very low. Do you always 722 00:42:43,356 --> 00:42:45,876 Speaker 1: have those moments in songs too? Like? Does every song 723 00:42:45,956 --> 00:42:49,156 Speaker 1: have an emotional insight or something? I'm thinking of a 724 00:42:49,196 --> 00:42:53,556 Speaker 1: song like a good Side, Yeah, which has a great lead. 725 00:42:53,596 --> 00:42:55,516 Speaker 1: I'm not going to give it away. It gets at 726 00:42:55,516 --> 00:42:58,676 Speaker 1: the heart of something very quickly. Yeah, you can always 727 00:42:58,676 --> 00:43:02,236 Speaker 1: identify those in songs. That's how I write. That is 728 00:43:02,276 --> 00:43:05,796 Speaker 1: an emotional that is an epiphany moment, where as a 729 00:43:05,876 --> 00:43:10,876 Speaker 1: mature person, I'm writing in a circumstance where I might 730 00:43:10,916 --> 00:43:14,196 Speaker 1: have written fucking run, where I might be resentful. Now 731 00:43:14,476 --> 00:43:18,596 Speaker 1: now I'm looking at the an abrupt ending of relationship 732 00:43:19,396 --> 00:43:22,196 Speaker 1: and saying, it's not such a bad idea to end 733 00:43:22,236 --> 00:43:24,356 Speaker 1: it here, you know, even though it wasn't my choice, 734 00:43:24,556 --> 00:43:28,276 Speaker 1: I can understand that because if I continue to pursue 735 00:43:28,276 --> 00:43:30,916 Speaker 1: this to try to get you back, or to get 736 00:43:30,916 --> 00:43:35,076 Speaker 1: you to want me back, it's only you're gonna be 737 00:43:35,156 --> 00:43:37,356 Speaker 1: left with a better impression of me. Like I don't 738 00:43:37,356 --> 00:43:40,076 Speaker 1: know if this has legs, this thing between us, and 739 00:43:40,116 --> 00:43:42,356 Speaker 1: so it's better just to you know, like that's only 740 00:43:42,356 --> 00:43:44,756 Speaker 1: a mature person could leave it there and say, like 741 00:43:45,036 --> 00:43:46,636 Speaker 1: I can live with that, you know what I mean, 742 00:43:46,756 --> 00:43:49,716 Speaker 1: Like this is probably a better impression of me that 743 00:43:49,796 --> 00:43:52,276 Speaker 1: you're ending with right now than it would be if 744 00:43:52,316 --> 00:43:54,356 Speaker 1: we continued on down the line. Because I think I've 745 00:43:54,356 --> 00:43:55,956 Speaker 1: been here before. I can see how this is going 746 00:43:55,996 --> 00:43:58,316 Speaker 1: to roll out, and it's something I want to say 747 00:43:58,356 --> 00:44:00,156 Speaker 1: to someone that I don't feel like I can call 748 00:44:00,236 --> 00:44:02,956 Speaker 1: up and say. It's a way to communicate with someone 749 00:44:02,956 --> 00:44:06,116 Speaker 1: that I cared about and hoped that I would have 750 00:44:06,236 --> 00:44:09,436 Speaker 1: a longer relationship with and it didn't happen. And it's 751 00:44:09,436 --> 00:44:12,716 Speaker 1: a way to sort of write that song that I 752 00:44:12,716 --> 00:44:15,676 Speaker 1: would have written at twenty five, angry and resentful and 753 00:44:15,796 --> 00:44:18,716 Speaker 1: like you used me or blah blah blah blah blah, 754 00:44:18,756 --> 00:44:21,796 Speaker 1: and just say like I might be getting out of this. Okay. 755 00:44:21,996 --> 00:44:26,276 Speaker 1: It's kind of beautiful the arc of life. So what 756 00:44:26,516 --> 00:44:28,796 Speaker 1: is what is next in the arc of life for you? 757 00:44:29,036 --> 00:44:31,636 Speaker 1: Once the Pandemics verre even a tour with these songs? 758 00:44:32,396 --> 00:44:35,236 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Well there's the Atlantis Garbage Tour, which I 759 00:44:35,276 --> 00:44:38,036 Speaker 1: am on, which has been sold out for two years, 760 00:44:38,076 --> 00:44:42,276 Speaker 1: so that hopefully will happen. I'm very much looking forward 761 00:44:42,316 --> 00:44:44,516 Speaker 1: to that, although I am not looking forward to trying 762 00:44:44,516 --> 00:44:47,716 Speaker 1: to move through this crazy country that can't get its 763 00:44:47,796 --> 00:44:52,036 Speaker 1: shit together with COVID, So I'm of two minds. The 764 00:44:52,076 --> 00:44:56,596 Speaker 1: tour itself is this ah thing I've been waiting to 765 00:44:56,636 --> 00:45:00,276 Speaker 1: do for two years, thinking of me as the luckiest 766 00:45:00,276 --> 00:45:02,396 Speaker 1: person on earth that I get to do this. And 767 00:45:02,436 --> 00:45:04,796 Speaker 1: then there's the idea of how do you move in 768 00:45:04,836 --> 00:45:08,956 Speaker 1: a bus through truck stops, through hotels, through you know, 769 00:45:09,796 --> 00:45:13,596 Speaker 1: different state lines, different cities. If one of us gets sick, 770 00:45:13,876 --> 00:45:17,676 Speaker 1: where do we leave them behind? I could get enraged 771 00:45:17,676 --> 00:45:20,636 Speaker 1: on this podcast, thinking about can we just pick a 772 00:45:20,716 --> 00:45:26,156 Speaker 1: strategy and all work together and deal with it? But no, 773 00:45:27,116 --> 00:45:30,836 Speaker 1: everybody's doing their own thing. Everybody's approaching it their own way, 774 00:45:30,836 --> 00:45:34,276 Speaker 1: and it's just gonna go on and on. It's like 775 00:45:34,356 --> 00:45:38,156 Speaker 1: watching a train wreck and slow motion and I'm so 776 00:45:38,236 --> 00:45:43,276 Speaker 1: angry and so frustrated and so disillusioned. That is spoken 777 00:45:43,316 --> 00:45:47,876 Speaker 1: like the daughter of an infectious disease special. Sorry, I'm 778 00:45:47,916 --> 00:45:50,956 Speaker 1: really mad about it. Maybe that's my opening act as 779 00:45:50,956 --> 00:45:54,276 Speaker 1: the compliance officer getting up and the like. But they're 780 00:45:54,316 --> 00:45:56,196 Speaker 1: gonna have to use their own microphone because no one's 781 00:45:56,236 --> 00:46:00,356 Speaker 1: touching my mic. Listen. Thank you so much for doing this. 782 00:46:00,476 --> 00:46:03,716 Speaker 1: It's been a real treat. Thank you so much. What 783 00:46:03,796 --> 00:46:07,916 Speaker 1: a fascinating conversation, many many lovely roads we went down. 784 00:46:11,396 --> 00:46:13,556 Speaker 1: Thanks for Liz Fair for sharing her creative vision for 785 00:46:13,596 --> 00:46:16,756 Speaker 1: her latest album with us to hear Soberish and our 786 00:46:16,756 --> 00:46:20,996 Speaker 1: favorite Liz Fair tracks headed Broken Record podcast dot. Are 787 00:46:21,036 --> 00:46:23,436 Speaker 1: you sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube 788 00:46:23,476 --> 00:46:26,196 Speaker 1: dot com slash broken Record Podcast, where we can find 789 00:46:26,196 --> 00:46:28,796 Speaker 1: all of our episodes. You can follow us on Twitter 790 00:46:28,836 --> 00:46:31,996 Speaker 1: at broken Record. Broken Record is produced with help from 791 00:46:32,036 --> 00:46:37,516 Speaker 1: Lea Rose, Jason Gambrel, Martin Gonzalez, Eric Sandler, and Jennifer Sanchez, 792 00:46:37,956 --> 00:46:40,956 Speaker 1: with engineering help from Nick Chafee. Our executive producer is 793 00:46:41,036 --> 00:46:43,596 Speaker 1: me a little Bit. Broken Record is a production of 794 00:46:43,596 --> 00:46:46,156 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries and if you like the show, please remember 795 00:46:46,196 --> 00:46:48,636 Speaker 1: to share, rate, and review us on your podcast at 796 00:46:49,076 --> 00:46:51,676 Speaker 1: the Musics by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Mishbert