Speaker 1: It's hard to think you need anything else. That's the
Speaker 1: only answer I can actually come up with us. That's
Speaker 1: all I ever heard was. Hey everyone, welcome back to
Speaker 1: this very special episode of On Purpose. Thanks to our
Speaker 1: partners a Better Help. For this episode today, I'm joined
Speaker 1: with Haysu Joe, licensed therapist and head of clinical Operations
Speaker 1: at Better Help. Better Help would like me to mention
Speaker 1: the following trigger warnings racism, bullying, and relationships with food.
Speaker 1: Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one
Speaker 1: health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every
Speaker 1: one of you that come back every week to listen,
Speaker 1: learn and grow. Now You're in the right place because
Speaker 1: I know you want to be happy. I know you
Speaker 1: want to be healthy, and I know you want to heal.
Speaker 1: And we have an incredible partner here at On Purpose
Speaker 1: and Better Help. And if you are listening closely, you
Speaker 1: heard some of the incredible live therapy sessions we did
Speaker 1: on the podcast with two incredible guests who are so
Speaker 1: happy and open to be really vulnerable and share their
Speaker 1: truth and share their story. And I want to repeat
Speaker 1: how grateful and honored I am to have had that opportunity.
Speaker 1: But today I'm going to put myself in the hot seats.
Speaker 1: So I thought, what better way to talk about therapy,
Speaker 1: What better way to discuss the power of therapy than
Speaker 1: to put myself in that position. I recommend therapy to
Speaker 1: so much family, so many friends, so many people in
Speaker 1: my life, so many clients that I work with as well,
Speaker 1: And I wanted to show you that, no matter how
Speaker 1: much you think you know, how much you have gained,
Speaker 1: how much learning and self work you have done, sitting
Speaker 1: down with someone who's non judgment or sitting down with
Speaker 1: someone who has expertise in this area, and sitting down
Speaker 1: with someone where in one sense they don't have a
Speaker 1: response to the outcome, they have a response to how
Speaker 1: you feel, they have a response to what you're going through,
Speaker 1: can really be powerful and beneficial for anyone's life. And
Speaker 1: today I'm joined a by the wonderful Hay Sue again,
Speaker 1: who is here last time with our incredible guests, and
Speaker 1: so hey Sue, thank you for being here, thank you
Speaker 1: for doing this again with me, thank you for the opportunity,
Speaker 1: and big thanks to better help but making this happen.
Speaker 1: So I guess I now have to officially hand over
Speaker 1: to you again. I have to stop being j Y
Speaker 1: the host an interview on this podcast, which I never do.
Speaker 1: This is a monumental, historic moment for me on the
Speaker 1: show where I'm going, Okay, I'm no longer a host,
Speaker 1: but I am a client and patient. That's exciting. I'm honored.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to tell myself now the pressure is not on.
Speaker 1: I'm really grateful that you're opening up in this way
Speaker 1: and inviting people into who you are, because I think
Speaker 1: that's going to be such a powerful way for people
Speaker 1: to get to witness what they might experience in a
Speaker 1: session themselves. Thank you. Yes, that's my hope. My hope
Speaker 1: is truthfold. My external reason for doing this is that
Speaker 1: people will get a sense of what therapy looks like,
Speaker 1: because I think we keep hearing about, oh, I went
Speaker 1: to therapy. My therapist said this, and people don't know
Speaker 1: what that means. And the internal reason for doing this
Speaker 1: is because I think I just genuinely love getting the
Speaker 1: opportunity to self reflect and try and find if there's
Speaker 1: anything else that I've missed or something that I haven't
Speaker 1: worked on. And so I think there's two reasons for
Speaker 1: doing this. It's not just I don't want anyone to
Speaker 1: think this is performative or the idea of just showing
Speaker 1: you what it looks like. I'm genuinely doing it as
Speaker 1: I'm in this seat, and I'm going to open up
Speaker 1: and be honest based on the questions that you have,
Speaker 1: as I would in a therapy session. All right, well,
Speaker 1: I'm glad we're here talking today about whatever it is
Speaker 1: that you'd like to get into. So a lot of
Speaker 1: times I do start exploring with new clients things from childhood,
Speaker 1: things from early life experiences, and a lot of people
Speaker 1: might wonder why therapists do that. So I think it's
Speaker 1: important for therapists to remember to explain these things. And
Speaker 1: that's called rationale, providing rationale as to why we're about
Speaker 1: to go into something, even though some people might want
Speaker 1: to deny it, or some people may not realize. So
Speaker 1: much of our childhood ends up manifesting in the way
Speaker 1: that we communicate with other people in our adulthood, the
Speaker 1: ways that we connect with folks. And so it's really
Speaker 1: important for me as a therapist to start painting this
Speaker 1: picture of who you were then, because that little kid
Speaker 1: is still inside of you now, and that little kid
Speaker 1: whose needs are not being met now is going to
Speaker 1: start acting out in different ways, starting having different behaviors,
Speaker 1: different feelings that sometimes don't make any sense, really hard
Speaker 1: to understand. If you would like to, like whatever way
Speaker 1: that feels comfortable, could you tell me a little bit
Speaker 1: about your childhood to start off. Yeah, it's so interesting.
Speaker 1: Even when I think about my childhood, I'm like, what
Speaker 1: do I remember and what do I not remember? What
Speaker 1: I guess have I chosen to block out or think
Speaker 1: about less versus what has kind of naturally been let
Speaker 1: go of? And then what's very clear? And so I
Speaker 1: think when I think about my childhood, I think about
Speaker 1: childhood starting when I went to nursery. I went to school,
Speaker 1: so like four years old I think I was when
Speaker 1: I started going to school. I think my most common
Speaker 1: memories are of being bullied at that age, and so
Speaker 1: bullying would include everything from being called names. I was
Speaker 1: one of the few Indian people in the school I
Speaker 1: went to, so people had hurtful names. I was quite
Speaker 1: overweight as a child, and so I would always be
Speaker 1: teased about my weight and you know, jokes of search
Speaker 1: and then I was also trained by my parents to
Speaker 1: do well at school, so at home it was all
Speaker 1: about grades and exams and about doing well. But then
Speaker 1: I went to a school where that wasn't the number
Speaker 1: one priority in elementary school we call it primary school
Speaker 1: in England. I think I was bullied for that too.
Speaker 1: I was bullied for the fact that I tried it.
Speaker 1: Was bullied for the fact that I would work hard,
Speaker 1: or my homework would be done on time, and things
Speaker 1: like that. And so there were so many different things
Speaker 1: I was getting bullied for. And the bullying started with
Speaker 1: words and names and things like that, but then it
Speaker 1: kind of evolved as we grew older into I remember
Speaker 1: being like, we have I don't know what you call
Speaker 1: them here, and maybe it's the same thing, but we
Speaker 1: had like big bushes of stinging nettles. Basically, it's a
Speaker 1: plant where if you touch it, you'd you'd feel like
Speaker 1: a sense of a negative reaction to it. I remember
Speaker 1: being pushed into this bush like repeatedly and for no
Speaker 1: other reason apart from the color of my skin and
Speaker 1: from my weight or size. And then I remember being
Speaker 1: beaten up multiple times as well. So I'd be at school,
Speaker 1: i'd be in the playground, I'd get beaten up. At lunchtime,
Speaker 1: I'd get you know, and that was that was a
Speaker 1: recurring thing, Like I don't remember that happening just once.
Speaker 1: I remember it happening again and again and again. And
Speaker 1: I've probably never talked about it this openly or this
Speaker 1: much before. And my mom would have to come into
Speaker 1: school and kind of like talk to the teachers and
Speaker 1: explain and try, and you know, she'd get upset with
Speaker 1: the way the teachers had handled it because we always
Speaker 1: felt like that kid would just be back in school
Speaker 1: the next day, and my mom didn't feel happy with
Speaker 1: the justice system, I guess in the school of how
Speaker 1: this was being taken care of. And you know, I'm
Speaker 1: talking about being like seven, eight years old while this
Speaker 1: is going on nine, ten years old. All the way
Speaker 1: through till about probably like ten years old, I think
Speaker 1: this was going on. I'm sure there's more, and I'm
Speaker 1: happy to unpack more, but I'm like, that's what I
Speaker 1: think of when I think of being a child, if
Speaker 1: that makes sense. Yeah, And it was interesting when somebody's
Speaker 1: asked I think to tell somebody else about their childhood. Initially,
Speaker 1: the first things that come to mind are often very
Speaker 1: defining things that create some part of your identity. You
Speaker 1: mentioned something about like there's things I remember, there's probably
Speaker 1: things like don't remember, things that maybe I've pushed a way,
Speaker 1: and for this to be the first thing that comes
Speaker 1: to your mind makes me very sad. It makes me
Speaker 1: very sad for little Jay. You know, that's trauma. It's
Speaker 1: to experience trauma repeatedly, over and over again. Little kids
Speaker 1: school is their world. School is shaping their worldview and
Speaker 1: to live day in and day out being afraid of
Speaker 1: going into the place that's supposed to be one of
Speaker 1: the safest places for school. I can see that turning
Speaker 1: into becoming an adult that feels like the world is unsafe,
Speaker 1: that people are untrustworthy. I cannot let other people in.
Speaker 1: I have to be very, very discerning about who I
Speaker 1: connect with, because it sounds like folks that maybe you
Speaker 1: had attempted to connect with turned around and pushed you
Speaker 1: into stinging metals. I think at that time I just
Speaker 1: felt quite alienated in school. I wouldn't say it was
Speaker 1: people I was. I didn't feel a sense of betrayal
Speaker 1: at that age. It was more just kids that I
Speaker 1: knew or didn't know. It was more neutral, i'd say,
Speaker 1: But it kind have changed when somehow, like I was
Speaker 1: like considered the dorkiest overweight kid in school, Like that's
Speaker 1: how I was referred to. And then I became friends
Speaker 1: somehow with the toughest kid in school who no one
Speaker 1: would argue with. And I don't know why he became
Speaker 1: my friend to old this day, I'd love to ask
Speaker 1: him his names Ian and Ian and I became best friends,
Speaker 1: and we bonded over football as soccer, and we bonded
Speaker 1: over just I don't know what I think that was it.
Speaker 1: I think it was as simple as like, what football
Speaker 1: team do you support? And then we supported the same team,
Speaker 1: and so then that became our like and I guess
Speaker 1: when you're that age, there's not much more to your
Speaker 1: personality and so, but me and him became best friends.
Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden, no one would want
Speaker 1: to fight with me because he was my best friend
Speaker 1: and he was really tough. And when I said tough,
Speaker 1: of being like he was sure and not like you
Speaker 1: wouldn't consider him to be strong, but he was someone
Speaker 1: who just was extremely powerful. You would not want to
Speaker 1: get into a fight with him. And we became friend
Speaker 1: and then from that day I felt far more protected
Speaker 1: and kind of safer because he was around, and that
Speaker 1: he'd get involved if anyone was to cross the line.
Speaker 1: I'm glad that you had that moment of meeting someone,
Speaker 1: so that sounds like the next year's were not as brutal. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1: I mean, what do you what do you remember about
Speaker 1: coming home after these days that you were just ostracized
Speaker 1: or picked on and even beat up. Like you said,
Speaker 1: did you want to go back to school the next day?
Speaker 1: Or like how did you feel about school in general? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I think it's really interesting, you know. And when you
Speaker 1: were saying you were sad earlier, I was like, I
Speaker 1: don't genuinely have sad memories in the sense of I
Speaker 1: think my mom. I felt so loved by my mom
Speaker 1: and her values or my parents' values of me doing
Speaker 1: well at school were so ingrained that I actually remember
Speaker 1: I remember being scared of going to school, for sure,
Speaker 1: and I remember not wanting to go to school every
Speaker 1: day because of this for sure. That that is definitely there.
Speaker 1: And I never missed a day. I would go back,
Speaker 1: so it wasn't that I actually took days off. I
Speaker 1: would go back the next day, even when I was scared.
Speaker 1: I think my parents were very much like schools about
Speaker 1: doing well. Will take care of this. This doesn't not
Speaker 1: that it doesn't matter in the sense that it's not important.
Speaker 1: It's that this isn't why you're there. You're not going
Speaker 1: there for those people. You're going there for your future.
Speaker 1: I think there was a lot of love from my parents.
Speaker 1: My home with my mom especially felt extremely safe, Like
Speaker 1: I feel like she created like this really beautiful, loving
Speaker 1: environment where I felt protected and even when I felt embarrassed.
Speaker 1: There were times I felt embarrassed when your mom comes
Speaker 1: and saves the day at school, Like that's massively embarrassing
Speaker 1: as a kid. But now when I look back, I
Speaker 1: think I look back in that in a healthy way
Speaker 1: where I'm like, oh no, my mom had my back.
Speaker 1: She always turned up. She never made me feel unloved.
Speaker 1: She never let me feel that me being overweight or
Speaker 1: a color of my skin was a disadvantage. And I
Speaker 1: think that's what was interesting, is that when I think
Speaker 1: about my parents, they never made me feel that the
Speaker 1: color of my skin was a disadvantage. They were just like,
Speaker 1: this is just who you are, So it wasn't a
Speaker 1: good thing or a bad thing. It's just this is
Speaker 1: who you are. And I think that at least helped
Speaker 1: me is what I can say that helped me because
Speaker 1: I don't think that I ever saw myself as better
Speaker 1: or worse than people. I just saw myself as I am,
Speaker 1: and so I think there were a lot of good
Speaker 1: values in there, maybe not even consciously from my parents,
Speaker 1: but at least ones that I feel I've extrapolated by
Speaker 1: reflection where I'm like, oh yeah, like you know, my
Speaker 1: parents never said, oh yeah, they do that because we're Indian,
Speaker 1: and they didn't tell me stories like that like my parents.
Speaker 1: I don't think my parents ever told me what they
Speaker 1: went through until I got older and I asked them,
Speaker 1: Like my mom and dad were both bullied for being Indian,
Speaker 1: and my mum moved to London when she was sixteen,
Speaker 1: and so you know, she went through a lot when
Speaker 1: she moved to London. And so I don't even think
Speaker 1: they ever told me those stories. So they didn't for me,
Speaker 1: at least, I feel they didn't reinforce what was going on.
Speaker 1: Not that they thought what was going on was okay,
Speaker 1: but they were trying to defend me the human, not
Speaker 1: me because I was overweight because of what color of
Speaker 1: my skin. So it wasn't like, oh, well, you need
Speaker 1: to lose weight or you know, it wasn't those one
Speaker 1: in the topics of conversation, if that makes sense. Resilience
Speaker 1: was being built for you at home with love, with presence,
Speaker 1: with support from your family. You even said that there's
Speaker 1: things that you were probably learning out of this that
Speaker 1: they weren't making very explicit. And something I was thinking
Speaker 1: of is even like this thing of you're going back
Speaker 1: to school because even though this difficult thing is happening,
Speaker 1: there's a reason, and there's a bigger purpose, and there's
Speaker 1: something about your future that's important, and that's why you're
Speaker 1: going to keep going back. There's a big lesson in
Speaker 1: that for all of us. It's even when something is
Speaker 1: very difficult, something doesn't feel good, something is scary, when
Speaker 1: there's this other meaning or this other reason to keep
Speaker 1: doing it, you muster up something inside of you to
Speaker 1: continue to keep going. That is resilience, and that's assistance.
Speaker 1: That's something that everybody needs, I think, to achieve whatever
Speaker 1: they want to. So it sounds like you were both
Speaker 1: struggling with something in a social sense with a lot
Speaker 1: of other kids, but also building something inside outwardly that
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't have the opportunity to really
Speaker 1: encounter that feels right now, and of course you can't.
Speaker 1: I wish I could go back and put myself in
Speaker 1: the mindset of that day and be like, how did
Speaker 1: I feel that day? And I'm sure I felt scared,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure I felt embarrassed. I'm sure I didn't
Speaker 1: feel like I do now where I'm like I was
Speaker 1: developing resilience, you know, like, I'm sure I don't now
Speaker 1: I feel like that, but I'm sure when I was
Speaker 1: there that day, I just felt like, this is the
Speaker 1: worst thing ever. I'm sure there were days like that.
Speaker 1: They they just don't seem to be the thoughts that
Speaker 1: have stayed with me. I think the thoughts that I
Speaker 1: took away were just you know, kids were mean. It
Speaker 1: was a tough time. Definitely, there were some really tough days.
Speaker 1: I remember this was a bit later on. I think
Speaker 1: we were in sixth grade, just before you go to
Speaker 1: high school, and so I remember this is by the
Speaker 1: time I felt that I wasn't getting beaten up anymore.
Speaker 1: So at least the violence had stopped, right, Like the
Speaker 1: physical abuse had stopped, you know, coming up with a
Speaker 1: black eye and like having your clothes ripped and stuff
Speaker 1: like that, like that definitely can't have been fun. I
Speaker 1: just I almost can't even access how I felt at
Speaker 1: that time, if I'm completely honest, Like it feels like
Speaker 1: I'm talking about someone else. So does it bring your
Speaker 1: feelings for you? Now? Distant? This is why I wanted
Speaker 1: to do this. It's like it's so I've always wanted
Speaker 1: to know, Like am I not excavating enough? Or like
Speaker 1: it's so distant that it almost feels like I'm watching
Speaker 1: my own life Like I don't. I'm like, I don't
Speaker 1: even remember that happening to me, but I know it happened,
Speaker 1: like if that makes sense, Like I remember it happening,
Speaker 1: I can talk about it. I can I remember even
Speaker 1: I can visualize it, Like while I'm talking to you,
Speaker 1: I can visualize exactly what my school uniform look like,
Speaker 1: exactly what I look like that day, Like I can
Speaker 1: remember that, but I don't have a strong sense of
Speaker 1: emotion attached to it, and I don't know how that happens,
Speaker 1: Like how does that exist? Where I can remember the event,
Speaker 1: I can remember who beat me up, I can remember
Speaker 1: what it looked like, I remember most of you know
Speaker 1: how it ended up. I remember telling my mom about it,
Speaker 1: but I can do it almost without any sense of pain,
Speaker 1: and I don't know how that exists. Do you think
Speaker 1: that someone is supposed to feel a certain way with
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, and how are you supposed to feel?
Speaker 1: That's a great question, and I think I often struggle
Speaker 1: with that, where when I look at previous struggles in
Speaker 1: my life, and I think I look at most of
Speaker 1: them the way I just explained to you now, I
Speaker 1: think sometimes I feel guilty that I don't feel bad
Speaker 1: about bad stuff that happened to me. But I don't.
Speaker 1: I just not that I'm not saying it's okay, or
Speaker 1: that I candone it, or that I definitely don't reflect
Speaker 1: this on to other people. And I think that's where
Speaker 1: I've I don't look at it. I never think, oh,
Speaker 1: I went through hard times and I'm fine, so everyone
Speaker 1: should be fine. Obviously I wouldn't be doing the work
Speaker 1: I'm doing today if I felt that way. I sometimes wonder,
Speaker 1: I'm like, why don't I feel bad? And me and
Speaker 1: my friend would love to talk about this because he
Speaker 1: has a similar take on it, and we're always asking
Speaker 1: ourself that questions like what's wrong with us? Like why
Speaker 1: do we not feel worse about what we went through
Speaker 1: because a lot of people might feel worse. So I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: you're right, I feel I feel guilty Sometimes that I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: maybe I should feel more pain because of what happened.
Speaker 1: Or sometimes I question, I'm like, am I just am
Speaker 1: I closing myself off from it? Am I defending myself
Speaker 1: from a really bad trauma? Am I protecting myself from something?
Speaker 1: I don't know? Like I'll ask those questions sometimes and
Speaker 1: the answers doesn't go anywhere. I'll like sit there and
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, I'm good, I'm fine. I mean, some
Speaker 1: part of you seems to think that you are supposed
Speaker 1: to feel something different than you feel now, And I
Speaker 1: think the reality is like you feel what you feel,
Speaker 1: and sometimes you don't and sometimes you did feel something
Speaker 1: and you don't remember. And I'm understanding You're like kind
Speaker 1: of wondering, did I feel something and I just pushed
Speaker 1: it away? If that's the reality. If that's the reality,
Speaker 1: we may never know, right, Like I don't know if
Speaker 1: the technology yet to be able to access something like
Speaker 1: that in a mental time travel type of thing. But
Speaker 1: I think even now, when we think about repression of
Speaker 1: memories or like the avoidance of painful past. These things
Speaker 1: are coping mechanisms, and even if we're not consciously aware
Speaker 1: of this stuff happening, it makes sense for a very
Speaker 1: powerful psyche to try to protect us from something. And
Speaker 1: you know, if you and your best friend example for
Speaker 1: as an example, are now reliving a painful memory and
Speaker 1: those feelings on a constant basis, would you be able
Speaker 1: to do anything, accomplish anything Like those that are sulking
Speaker 1: in the pain of yesterday are often the ones that
Speaker 1: are unable to propel themselves towards something better for today
Speaker 1: and tomorrow. It's very evident that you're doing very well
Speaker 1: for today and tomorrow all the time, not just for you,
Speaker 1: but for so many other people. If anything, it seems
Speaker 1: like a protective factor, maybe that you're not really aware of,
Speaker 1: to separate yourself from the feelings that you probably may
Speaker 1: have experienced at that time. We as people are so
Speaker 1: interesting in that way, because you know, we remember some
Speaker 1: stuff and don't and some things we think we don't remember,
Speaker 1: but then something triggers a memory, right like somebody mentions
Speaker 1: something and I'm sure we've all had that experience, like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I haven't thought about this thing and
Speaker 1: so long, but you just unlocked something. Yeah, So I
Speaker 1: don't think we necessarily need to live our lives like
Speaker 1: searching for all the things to unlock the path helpful, Yeah,
Speaker 1: especially if our present moment is still something that we're
Speaker 1: thriving in, something that we're able to share good things
Speaker 1: with other people with. So it's helpful. That's very helpful,
Speaker 1: that's very reassuring. I think a lot of people. I
Speaker 1: often talk to people about the difference between thinking and overthinking,
Speaker 1: and I think there is something to be said for
Speaker 1: like that overanalysis, the overthinking of trying to find something,
Speaker 1: and it's like, well, I can't. I can see connections
Speaker 1: in how being bullied led to me, definitely at an
Speaker 1: early age, becoming more empathetic, Like I saw myself wanting
Speaker 1: i've really got upset or would feel other people's pain
Speaker 1: early on if someone was being bullied around me, so
Speaker 1: I could deal with it. But it's if we were
Speaker 1: sitting in a group and someone was bullying you, I
Speaker 1: would be very protective of you, and I would sense
Speaker 1: that very early because I could tell how this person
Speaker 1: felt towards you, and then I would be like, oh,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't want to go through that, and then I
Speaker 1: would stand up for the person, or I would try
Speaker 1: and get involved in some way because I think, I
Speaker 1: just I know what it felt like to be called names.
Speaker 1: I know what it felt like to be beaten up.
Speaker 1: I know what it felt like to have the hurt
Speaker 1: at that time, and I realized just how sad it was, because, Yeah,
Speaker 1: the story I was about to tell you was, so
Speaker 1: I remember in sixth grade or fifth or sixth grade,
Speaker 1: I came in late to school. Maybe I had a
Speaker 1: draft's appoinment, or maybe we're running late with my mom,
Speaker 1: I can't remember. And I was late, and there was
Speaker 1: this one girl in our class that everyone had a
Speaker 1: crush on right sixth grade, crushed everyone. I still remember
Speaker 1: her name, I still remember, so I remember actually looked
Speaker 1: like it's just so clear, it's crazy. That's the kind
Speaker 1: of stuff I can remember. So we all had a
Speaker 1: crush on her in sixth grade, and all the guys
Speaker 1: had a crush on her, and we would talk about
Speaker 1: how we all had a crush on her, but I
Speaker 1: would never talk about it too much because I knew
Speaker 1: she was out of my league, right, Like it was
Speaker 1: that kind of like feeling as a kid. Oh, anyone
Speaker 1: who's listening, by the way, if you're not watching, I
Speaker 1: was doing quotation marks around outside of my league, so
Speaker 1: I would never talk about that, but all the guys knew.
Speaker 1: And then this day came in late to school. Everyone
Speaker 1: was like looking at me weird. The girls were laughing,
Speaker 1: the guys were laughing. And then I was wondering what
Speaker 1: was going on, and obviously the teachers speaking, so I
Speaker 1: can't ask friends, I can't talk in class. And then
Speaker 1: my friend writes me a note and he's on the
Speaker 1: note it said, oh, we told her that you like her,
Speaker 1: and so like, not only was she told that I
Speaker 1: liked her, she was told that I was the only
Speaker 1: guy who liked her in school. And so none of
Speaker 1: the other guys owned up to this crush. It was
Speaker 1: only that I was put out there. And I remember,
Speaker 1: and this was this was painful for sure, and I
Speaker 1: often looked at this moment for so much courage, and
Speaker 1: I think I almost use these events as like I
Speaker 1: went through that when I was that age. I can
Speaker 1: do a lot of stuff today. I remember like I played,
Speaker 1: I was playing football again, and football. I think football
Speaker 1: was my first love, so it kind of turns up
Speaker 1: in so many of my stories. And I was playing goal.
Speaker 1: I was never allowed to play on the field because
Speaker 1: I wasn't mobile or agile enough compared to all the
Speaker 1: other kids as they thought, so I'd be in goal.
Speaker 1: And the girls stood behind the goal that day and
Speaker 1: just called me names for like an hour of lunchtime.
Speaker 1: And I remember them saying things like, Oh, you're so overware.
Speaker 1: I can't believe you think that. Not she's in your league,
Speaker 1: but that kind of thing, like I can't believe you
Speaker 1: think you could have got her, and that kind of
Speaker 1: and and that when I talked about that, that definitely
Speaker 1: makes me feel sad. I'm like, yeah, that was that
Speaker 1: was painful, Like that's a member word that I do
Speaker 1: have emotion attached to her. I'm like, yeah, that felt
Speaker 1: really really tough, because like it's your first crush. I
Speaker 1: think she's the first girl I've ever had a crush
Speaker 1: into my life at the time, and then it and
Speaker 1: then to be feeling like I didn't want her to know.
Speaker 1: I knew she wasn't in my league. I knew she
Speaker 1: wasn't you were trying to prevent this happening. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: was like I know that she's far more prettier than
Speaker 1: I am and cuter than I am and all that stuff.
Speaker 1: I'm already aware of that, and the last thing I
Speaker 1: needed to be called out for that, So that that
Speaker 1: definitely telling that story actually has more pain in it
Speaker 1: than talking about getting being up with the racism. Actually,
Speaker 1: so yeah, I was experiencing the secondhand embarrassment for you, like,
Speaker 1: oh God, like that's what you didn't want to happening. This,
Speaker 1: this experience is like out of your league thing. I think.
Speaker 1: It's like you quoted one of these kids behind you,
Speaker 1: like you think you had a chance. It's like, no,
Speaker 1: I didn't. That's why I didn't want to say anything. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I knew I didn't have a chance, right, I knew
Speaker 1: I didn't have a chance. And I would say I
Speaker 1: actually felt pretty confident about who I was before teenage,
Speaker 1: before becoming a teenager. And I'd say, actually, when I
Speaker 1: got into my teens, that's where I became less confident.
Speaker 1: I think up until my teenage years, it was like
Speaker 1: I was a good student, I worked hard, I was
Speaker 1: a good son. You know, I cannot check all those
Speaker 1: things off. And I was like, yeah, my identity is
Speaker 1: very secure you're sure of those things things, So regardless
Speaker 1: of all this other stuff, I was like, but that
Speaker 1: is a matter. Like the goal of life at that
Speaker 1: age was not to get this goal to like me like.
Speaker 1: That wasn't the goal of life. The goal was to
Speaker 1: get into a good high school. Like I guess the
Speaker 1: training of the conditioning of my parents was You're only
Speaker 1: here to get into a good high school, to do
Speaker 1: well in school. And so I think I was so
Speaker 1: busy with exams and homework and studying really really hard
Speaker 1: that I didn't really think anything else was important at
Speaker 1: the time. I had enough good friends. As time has
Speaker 1: gone on, like a small group, but I had enough
Speaker 1: friends that I think got me through it. Now when
Speaker 1: I look back, and yeah, you had a support system.
Speaker 1: You've had these factors in your life to kind of
Speaker 1: outweigh any of the negative stuff you had been going through.
Speaker 1: I keep thinking of this, like this overarching theme of
Speaker 1: being mothered. This is like a term a lot of
Speaker 1: people are talking about these days. So what does that
Speaker 1: mean to you? What is it to be othered? What
Speaker 1: does it mean to me now? Or what do you
Speaker 1: mean to me then? Now? Now, when you said that,
Speaker 1: the first thing I came to my mind. I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: of course, like that's my strength, that I'm othered like
Speaker 1: ill I heard the first thing that got in my
Speaker 1: when you said. I was like, yeah, that's why I
Speaker 1: love being I love being othered like now, like I
Speaker 1: love being different and I love being unique. I realized
Speaker 1: very much in the past few years that I've sat
Speaker 1: with this idea for a long time. I think that
Speaker 1: route of that is I've always wanted to be understood
Speaker 1: more than even liked or more than validated, which I
Speaker 1: think and we can talk about that maybe another term
Speaker 1: or whatever, but I think that I worked on when
Speaker 1: I became a monk in terms of being liked and validated.
Speaker 1: But I think I've always craved to be understood because
Speaker 1: I've had I consider myself to be someone of I
Speaker 1: always say to everyone, like the only credit I will
Speaker 1: give myself is that I consider myself to pure intentions
Speaker 1: like that that I will hold my hand on my heart.
Speaker 1: I'm a good person. I want good things for good
Speaker 1: for people. I think about good things. I don't have
Speaker 1: any agendas. I'm not trying to manipulate, so it's not
Speaker 1: it's not who I am because about my Mum raised me.
Speaker 1: So I have pure intentions, and so because of that,
Speaker 1: I really have found it for years very hard to
Speaker 1: be misunderstood by people because I'm like, I wanted you
Speaker 1: to win, like I only want good things, So if
Speaker 1: someone thinks otherwise. I had an episode the other day
Speaker 1: where someone who I don't know very well, but again
Speaker 1: I made the false assumption that they should know me
Speaker 1: because of people we both know and how much those
Speaker 1: people respect me or have a connection with me. I
Speaker 1: assume that they would understand that, and they were feeling
Speaker 1: a bit of uneasiness about trusting me on something, and
Speaker 1: that really upset me. I said to them that my
Speaker 1: trust and my integrity is all I have, Like that's
Speaker 1: what I like carry myself on, and so for you
Speaker 1: to think otherwise upset me. So I guess when I
Speaker 1: hear other now, I'm like I feel to me, it
Speaker 1: means to be misunderstood and not even given a chance
Speaker 1: to be understood. And now when I reflect on it,
Speaker 1: I actually realize I don't think anyone will. I'm not sure.
Speaker 1: I haven't yet come to an understanding of whether anyone
Speaker 1: has the power to fully understand anyone. It's so hard
Speaker 1: to understand ourselves. And I think often I hoped people
Speaker 1: would understand me. But even if I walk into this conversation,
Speaker 1: I'm like, you're a therapist, you should understand me fully.
Speaker 1: I think that's a lot of pressure on another human being.
Speaker 1: And I think even if I told you every detail
Speaker 1: of my story, point by point, I still don't think
Speaker 1: someone could fully understand me, because it's so big and
Speaker 1: so to me. Today, I see being othered or the
Speaker 1: word other is like a strength because I go, yeah,
Speaker 1: I am different, and yeah, othered is what led me
Speaker 1: on this unique path, and othered is what led me
Speaker 1: to take risks. Maybe if I felt a part of
Speaker 1: the crew always, I wouldn't have become a monk, and
Speaker 1: then I wouldn't have quit being a monk to work
Speaker 1: in the corporate world. And then I wouldn't have quit
Speaker 1: being in the corporate world to follow my passion and
Speaker 1: pursue my purpose to share wisdom with others. Like I've
Speaker 1: just constantly tating so many risks in my life, and
Speaker 1: I've constantly felt othered every time I took the risk,
Speaker 1: because how many twenty two year olds were becoming monks
Speaker 1: and how many twenty nine year olds were quitting their
Speaker 1: safe job to pursue their passion, and so becoming othered
Speaker 1: has become my strength. Now, No, that's how now, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's how it feels now today. Yeah, you had asked me, am,
Speaker 1: I asking you about how I feel about it now
Speaker 1: or back then? And so tell me how did you
Speaker 1: feel about it back? Completely? The opposite right differ? Yeah,
Speaker 1: like back then, if I talk about being other, it's
Speaker 1: let you feel left out. You feel like the losering school.
Speaker 1: You feel like the loner I felt, you know, I
Speaker 1: remember now this. I'm never barely think about this. But
Speaker 1: my mum would often make me pack lunch, and all
Speaker 1: my friends would eat school dinners. And if you ate
Speaker 1: pack lunch, you'd sit separately to the kids who ate
Speaker 1: school dinners. You weren't allowed to sit together. Well, great
Speaker 1: school idea. Yeah, and not many people ate pack lunches
Speaker 1: in my school. Most people ate school dinners, and so
Speaker 1: I would sit alone during lunch, and then my food
Speaker 1: would smell different because it was often Indian. People would
Speaker 1: look at it in point fingers and like, what's that?
Speaker 1: That's I used to hide my food and eat it,
Speaker 1: and I actually think it's I've never drawn this thing,
Speaker 1: but I think I still have it today. Is I
Speaker 1: used to eat my food really quickly, and that's been
Speaker 1: a habit I've had to untrained so hard because even
Speaker 1: in my adult life, I've always eaten really quickly. And
Speaker 1: when my wife sees me, and she's massively into diet
Speaker 1: and I laid it and you know, nutrition, and so
Speaker 1: she's eating slowly and being present fineful in food. When
Speaker 1: I was a monk as well, it was it was
Speaker 1: one of the tough things because mindful eating was such
Speaker 1: a big practice. But I've noticed that I've always been
Speaker 1: a fast eating I wonder whether I actually developed that
Speaker 1: back then, where it's like I didn't want anyone to
Speaker 1: see what I was eating. Yeah, and so almost have that.
Speaker 1: My wife was someone has seen the eat. She was like,
Speaker 1: what's wrong with you? Like you eat as if like
Speaker 1: you know you're not going to get another meal, Like
Speaker 1: you eat so fast. And that's my earliest memory of
Speaker 1: eating fast because I didn't want people to see what
Speaker 1: I was eating. And that's really quicker I eat it,
Speaker 1: the less I'll get judged for it. And so that
Speaker 1: othering was not I didn't look at that and go,
Speaker 1: oh that's cool, great, especially at that age for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: I think, like so much of us feel hardwired to
Speaker 1: want to belong, to be part of the group, to
Speaker 1: find acceptance with others. And it's it's almost sounding like
Speaker 1: this whole kind of childhood experience may have impacted your
Speaker 1: relationship with food. You mentioned being overweight, and I imagine
Speaker 1: there's just like so much going on with that, especially
Speaker 1: with kids, Like you're eating certain amounts of food at school.
Speaker 1: It's a little bit controlled. It's outside of school that's
Speaker 1: affecting all that. So there is a stark difference here
Speaker 1: of your experience with other at that time and your
Speaker 1: experience now do you recall like when that shift happened,
Speaker 1: and yeah, what contributed to that? I think also for
Speaker 1: a long time in my physical health, I felt that
Speaker 1: if I was skinny, I was healthy. I think a
Speaker 1: lot of people, Yeah, the idea, which was a terrible idea, right,
Speaker 1: like that doesn't that's not true at all, And so yeah,
Speaker 1: I would think as long as I'm skinny, I'm healthy.
Speaker 1: And then when I went through some health issues, I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, like that that wasn't the right metric
Speaker 1: to be looking at. But for so long in my teens,
Speaker 1: that was the metric that I held onto because that's
Speaker 1: the only metric that I had for health. My friends
Speaker 1: always wanted me to be healthy, but I don't think
Speaker 1: we talked about health in a healthy way necessarily when
Speaker 1: I married my wife. That was far more of the
Speaker 1: transition from the food point of view, where I think
Speaker 1: food became healing and healthier when I married her, which
Speaker 1: is only six years ago. Up until that point, I
Speaker 1: don't think I had the healthiest ideas about food and
Speaker 1: how it can be healing. But when you were saying
Speaker 1: when did that shift happen? I think what's really interesting
Speaker 1: is that even though I sound very confident in being
Speaker 1: a kid, when I became a teenager, it kind of
Speaker 1: flipped the other way where it was like, now all
Speaker 1: that mattered was validation. Now all that mattered was fitting in.
Speaker 1: Now all that mattered. So that's what I was saying,
Speaker 1: that I almost went from being confident in who I
Speaker 1: was even through all this hardship, then to almost throw
Speaker 1: it out the window when I became a teenager, to
Speaker 1: be like, I wasn't confident in who I was. What
Speaker 1: I remember of being a teenager was I wanted to
Speaker 1: be liked. I wanted to be approved of. I wanted
Speaker 1: to be validated. I didn't like being othered. I I
Speaker 1: hope that people would see me as a part of
Speaker 1: the group. And I think that's what ed me towards
Speaker 1: getting involved in a lot of the wrong circles, because
Speaker 1: that was more considered cool and interesting. And now you
Speaker 1: weren't being left out. It was almost like you were
Speaker 1: the one to keep up with because you were doing
Speaker 1: the risky stuff. For the stuff you're not allowed to do,
Speaker 1: that's still socially accepted. That's still socially acceptable. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: like the mystery was what made you more interesting. And
Speaker 1: so even though I felt so uncomfortable with drugs or
Speaker 1: smoking weed or getting into fights or any of that stuff,
Speaker 1: I would hang around those circles because I felt that
Speaker 1: validated me or made me more interesting at the time,
Speaker 1: if that makes sense. And so now I didn't want
Speaker 1: to be left out for being the loser. I was
Speaker 1: so scared of that that I was willing to do
Speaker 1: things that were completely out of alignment with my values
Speaker 1: in order to be liked, right, And that was very uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: I think that that was really tough because you're then
Speaker 1: constantly living in a state of fear of what if
Speaker 1: they figure out this isn't me. So you're scared of
Speaker 1: the group you're in, and then you're also scared because
Speaker 1: you're not living a life that's authentic to you. So
Speaker 1: you've almost got two fears of what if I get
Speaker 1: found out by all these cool kids that I'm not
Speaker 1: that cool? And I'm scared because I actually don't want
Speaker 1: to have a fight today, but I have to because
Speaker 1: that makes me more interesting somehow, which sounds ridiculous but
Speaker 1: makes sense to a seventeen year old And exactly, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: this feeling of being scared, this is like kind of
Speaker 1: the first time you're recalling a feeling. Right. You even
Speaker 1: said that a lot of your childhood experiences you can't
Speaker 1: remember feeling anything, and even when you recall them, you
Speaker 1: don't feel much about it. But this thing you remember
Speaker 1: feeling scared, and you say, now, with good reflection, these
Speaker 1: are the things I think I was scared of. Do
Speaker 1: you think sixteen, seventeen year old you understood what you
Speaker 1: were scared of? And if so, like, what was it
Speaker 1: the you were scared of? No, definitely not. I think
Speaker 1: at that time I was just scared of being left out.
Speaker 1: I was scared of being seen as a loser like
Speaker 1: I was at primary school. I guess, like, you know,
Speaker 1: I think that was it was like I didn't want
Speaker 1: to I didn't want to be that kid anymore, because
Speaker 1: what happens to kids like that, what happens to losers.
Speaker 1: You get bullied more you get you know, and I
Speaker 1: did in the earlier stages. So I lost weight around
Speaker 1: fifteen years old, and so I'd say even in high school,
Speaker 1: like eleven to fifteen, I was still bullied for the
Speaker 1: same reasons. I remember, like in high school we started swimming.
Speaker 1: I went to Old Boys School, which everyone has their
Speaker 1: own views about that stuff. I personally loved the school
Speaker 1: I went to for high school, Like in hindsight when
Speaker 1: I was there, sure, but I'm very grateful I went there.
Speaker 1: It's a fantastic school, and I definitely have such a
Speaker 1: great relationship with this school. I remember a few memories
Speaker 1: quite vividly of like not being able to We weren't
Speaker 1: allowed to use the steps to get out of the
Speaker 1: swimming pool at school, and I couldn't get out. I
Speaker 1: was like push myself out of a pool, And I
Speaker 1: remember like being bullied for when I was like eleven
Speaker 1: or twelve years old again because of my size and weight.
Speaker 1: And then I remembered, you know, you're in a changing
Speaker 1: room now with a bunch of dudes, and you're playing rugby,
Speaker 1: which was our school sport, and like you're taking a
Speaker 1: top off and people are laughing at you for how
Speaker 1: you look and all of that kind of stuff. And
Speaker 1: so I think to me, i'd actually started high school
Speaker 1: where I left off. And I think when I naturally
Speaker 1: started to lose weight when the bullying stopped, I was like, all,
Speaker 1: I need to hold on to this now. It's almost
Speaker 1: like things are turning in our favor, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1: So I started to feel like, oh, now I could
Speaker 1: be one of the cool kids and that would save
Speaker 1: me from the pain and the stress that I went
Speaker 1: through as being a loser or being you know, loser
Speaker 1: again quotation marks, because I didn't want to be that anymore.
Speaker 1: I think I'd suffered for so long it's almost like
Speaker 1: That's what I felt then was I was like, we've
Speaker 1: been through this for enough time, Like it's now time
Speaker 1: to not be there, and we're going to do whatever
Speaker 1: it takes to not be for it that way, because
Speaker 1: he used so much of whatever it was that got
Speaker 1: you through the first time, it's like, no, thank you
Speaker 1: don't need to do that again. Yeah, I don't want
Speaker 1: to go through it again. And it was harder when
Speaker 1: you're older, And it was harder with kids who had
Speaker 1: more than a couple of mean words. And it was
Speaker 1: harder when I wasn't getting beaten up at this time,
Speaker 1: but it was. It was harder when I guess you
Speaker 1: were older and you could process it more. I guess
Speaker 1: almost like being a kid. Maybe I wasn't processing it
Speaker 1: as as long. Yeah, processing it differently. It sounds like
Speaker 1: it's it's always been very valuable to you for people
Speaker 1: to understand you. And now and you're like later in
Speaker 1: your life, I'm I'm hearing that, like being understood is
Speaker 1: more important than being liked. So in that I'm guessing
Speaker 1: for you, you'd rather that somebody seeks to understand you
Speaker 1: and then they can decide whether they like you or not.
Speaker 1: That's now, that's today. I think, well, now I've realized people.
Speaker 1: I don't think most people who have the time to
Speaker 1: understand anyone, But I think at that time I wanted
Speaker 1: to be liked. At that time, I wanted to be liked.
Speaker 1: I wanted to be popular. I wanted to be validated
Speaker 1: at the time at school because I just dealt with
Speaker 1: the opposite for so long, right, I think I was
Speaker 1: exhausted my resilience almost if I had any resilience at
Speaker 1: that age, my resilience was exhausted. I was done being resilient.
Speaker 1: I was like, this is too hard now, Like this
Speaker 1: can't be the next you know, seven years or whatever
Speaker 1: it is. So I think that led me to a
Speaker 1: lot of bad decisions because I was just craving people's
Speaker 1: approval during my teens, and you become someone you don't
Speaker 1: want to be when you're craving approval from people that
Speaker 1: aren't aligned with your values, and that's all I did.
Speaker 1: It was almost like I didn't want to be seen
Speaker 1: as the good kid anymore. I didn't want to be
Speaker 1: seen as the kid who did well at school. I
Speaker 1: didn't want to be seen as the kid who performed perfectly.
Speaker 1: Like I remember when I went to school at eleven,
Speaker 1: my goal was to be headboy. Headboy was this role.
Speaker 1: I don't know what you have in the US, not that,
Speaker 1: but I learned of head boy and her yeah exactly,
Speaker 1: there we go Harry Potter is the British reference to America. Okay,
Speaker 1: that makes sense. I should I love Harry Potter, so
Speaker 1: that makes sense. But yeah, that was the idea, like
Speaker 1: my goal at age eleven. This is how much of
Speaker 1: a quotation Mark dorc I was at the time, Like
Speaker 1: the idea was. I wanted to be a headboy when
Speaker 1: I went to school, and when I was sixteen years
Speaker 1: old at school, the last thing I would have wanted
Speaker 1: to be was headboy because I thought it was the
Speaker 1: most uncool thing to be. And so it's like that's
Speaker 1: how much I'd switched my values. And I lived out
Speaker 1: the latter of that where we had multiple roles where
Speaker 1: again I think Harry Potter has this, but we had
Speaker 1: multiple roles in school where you had headboy. You had
Speaker 1: prefects who were like these right, like you have all
Speaker 1: this kind of like you know, and I didn't even
Speaker 1: get pretty much ever, and in my year made it
Speaker 1: to like some level. And I was one of three
Speaker 1: kids out of one hundred and eighty that had no
Speaker 1: standing in that you were avoiding it. I was avoiding it.
Speaker 1: I was avoiding it so hard that it had completely
Speaker 1: gone the other way. And now when I'm reflecting that
Speaker 1: it was exactly that that I completely traded. I guess
Speaker 1: now when I'm looking at it, it was like to me,
Speaker 1: I was like pivoting my values to figure out what
Speaker 1: they were, and they definitely I wasn't now. I wasn't
Speaker 1: happy with the values that I got through primary school with.
Speaker 1: I wasn't. I was like, I don't want to be
Speaker 1: the good kid who always behaves, who always gets good grades,
Speaker 1: who then gets bullied for getting those good grades, who
Speaker 1: then experiences racism for getting those good grades. Like that
Speaker 1: can't be life, and so let's do the opposite. Let's
Speaker 1: let's do everything wrong because there are only two options
Speaker 1: and that must be the way. Yeah, Like why would
Speaker 1: somebody keep doing the thing that they're thinking is the
Speaker 1: reason behind being ostracized or cornish? Exactly? So when you
Speaker 1: asked what do you feel about being othered? I'd actually
Speaker 1: say that I didn't feel comfortable being othered, and so
Speaker 1: I traded everything that made me feel othered only to
Speaker 1: feel othered the other way. Where now that I was
Speaker 1: breaking rules, there were also lots of kids going like
Speaker 1: why are you doing this? What's wrong with you? Like?
Speaker 1: Why do you need to always you know, do something
Speaker 1: to stand out, and I was like, oh, this doesn't
Speaker 1: work either. Extreme efforts to calibrate, trying to figure out
Speaker 1: where you fit in this world. Totally. Yeah, I definitely
Speaker 1: wasn't happy as a teen in that sense. I think
Speaker 1: it was hard for me to make real friends because
Speaker 1: the kids that I wanted to be friends with, who
Speaker 1: would be considered good kids, their parents didn't want them
Speaker 1: spending time with me because I was the bad influence.
Speaker 1: The kids that I did spend time with that my
Speaker 1: parents wouldn't want me spending time with they never respected
Speaker 1: you because you were always having to do something more
Speaker 1: stupid or more ridiculous to gain everyone's respect. So that
Speaker 1: wasn't friendship either. Like you didn't feel you didn't feel
Speaker 1: safe around those kids because those kids always made you
Speaker 1: feel inferior unless you were going to do the next
Speaker 1: difficult thing. It's like you're there to performance Little Monkey
Speaker 1: Year totally, and then you don't feel safe around the
Speaker 1: kids who are well behaved or whatever, because they somehow
Speaker 1: doubt that you're the person their parents wanted to be around. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's kind of like you don't feel again, you
Speaker 1: feel other even at the other extreme, so it's like,
Speaker 1: I'm not cool enough to be the bad kids. And again,
Speaker 1: I don't want to put labels on bad kids and
Speaker 1: good kids, but I'm just using it as overarching terminology.
Speaker 1: But you know, you're not cool enough to be around
Speaker 1: kids who break the rules, but you're not enjoying being
Speaker 1: well behaved enough around the kids who do well. If
Speaker 1: that makes sense at school? Yeah, And a lot of
Speaker 1: what you're describing, I think is like universally relatable to
Speaker 1: lots of youths. It doesn't matter what country you grew
Speaker 1: up in, but a lot of these dynamics end up
Speaker 1: showing up in school. On top of that, You've mentioned
Speaker 1: this a couple of times and we haven't really gotten
Speaker 1: into it is racism. Experiencing racism as such a small child,
Speaker 1: not really brilliant, being able to process what's even happening,
Speaker 1: or understanding what that's like. So as you reflect on
Speaker 1: it now as an adult, can you tell me a
Speaker 1: bit about that experience. Yeah, I think there were days
Speaker 1: growing up where and this was very subconscious. I can
Speaker 1: only probably think about this now, but I think I
Speaker 1: grew up and they were definitely, if I'm completely honest,
Speaker 1: there were probably days where I wished I wasn't Indian
Speaker 1: because people made fun of people with Indian accents. Obviously,
Speaker 1: I was born and raised in London, so and obviously
Speaker 1: I've lived in the States for the last six years,
Speaker 1: so I have somewhat of a British New York LA
Speaker 1: mix of whatever my accent sounds like now. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I just didn't think people thought Indian people had a
Speaker 1: identity or reduced to something totally. Yeah, and so I've
Speaker 1: spoken to my American friends about this, but it's like
Speaker 1: almost like when you watch the Simpsons, you see a
Speaker 1: Pooh and then I remember the first time I went
Speaker 1: to a barbershop when I came to LA and I
Speaker 1: want to get my haircut, and the lady at the
Speaker 1: barbershop was really confused by my accent and how I
Speaker 1: spoke basically how I looked, and she was like, well,
Speaker 1: where are you from? And I was like, I'm from
Speaker 1: London and she was like, oh like. I literally thought
Speaker 1: everyone who looked Indian like spoke like a Pooh like.
Speaker 1: That was her literal statement for me. That's in La like.
Speaker 1: And I moved to LA four years ago. This isn't
Speaker 1: very recently. Yeah, this isn't like decades ago. I was like, wow,
Speaker 1: you know, and there was a part of me that
Speaker 1: had that feeling growing up where I didn't think being
Speaker 1: in these are again my teens, I didn't think being
Speaker 1: Indian was a strength or was I saw as a weakness.
Speaker 1: I don't have a very confident answer on that, but yeah,
Speaker 1: there were parts of that, and it's it's it's so
Speaker 1: fascinating to me now when I look at it him like,
Speaker 1: you know, India's wisdom became like my heart and soul
Speaker 1: and you know, spending time in India and my monkhood,
Speaker 1: and it's it's so fascinating to think that there were
Speaker 1: so many there's so many contradictions in my life, and
Speaker 1: I almost go in the direction that contradicts what I'm
Speaker 1: feeling at the time, only to discover more depth in
Speaker 1: that in that pursuit, you know, where now I consider
Speaker 1: the wisdom I gained from the Eastern literatures to be
Speaker 1: one of the greatest gifts in my entire life. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just interesting connecting the dots. I've always found connecting
Speaker 1: the dots and multiple stages in my life very interesting,
Speaker 1: and yeah, connecting dots like fully embracing something that you
Speaker 1: previously rejected as part of you know, understanding of yourself.
Speaker 1: It sounds like I'm feeling like it wasn't like when
Speaker 1: you were a kid that you were overtly thinking and
Speaker 1: absorbing it as like these people don't like me because
Speaker 1: I'm Indian. It's more just they have an idea of
Speaker 1: what an Indian is supposed to be and I don't
Speaker 1: want to be that. Correct, I guess that. And then
Speaker 1: teenage age, it was just like what can I mold
Speaker 1: myself to that everyone will like? I think it was
Speaker 1: as simple as that, right, It was like what will
Speaker 1: everyone applaud? And like, I remember being a class clown
Speaker 1: and doing stupid stuff as a class clown because that
Speaker 1: got the approval of my peers, and now in a
Speaker 1: little back, I would never do something like that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that all started to change definitely when I
Speaker 1: became a monk, because when I started spending time with monks,
Speaker 1: because I went from almost being confident in my parents'
Speaker 1: identity in up till ten years old, to then rejecting
Speaker 1: my parents identity and trying to be everything everyone wanted
Speaker 1: to be, to then choosing to become a monk which
Speaker 1: was the most random thing to become, purely because the
Speaker 1: most inspirational and interesting person I had met by the
Speaker 1: time I was twenty one twenty two was a monk.
Speaker 1: And that was the reason. It was like, this person's
Speaker 1: figured out life. They're confident, they are happy, they are content,
Speaker 1: and they found it through being a monk, and they're
Speaker 1: helping other people. Those all seem like good values, right,
Speaker 1: Like when I talk about why I became a monk,
Speaker 1: it was I loved meeting someone who had focused on
Speaker 1: mastering envy and ego and jealousy and comparison, and like
Speaker 1: he was a person who was talking about how that's
Speaker 1: what you learned being a monk, and I was like, well,
Speaker 1: that makes sense, because none of those things have served me.
Speaker 1: And I remember thinking that at eighteen, where I was
Speaker 1: like when I first met him, I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: like comparing myself to others, feeling envious, having an ego,
Speaker 1: none of those things have helped me, and they don't
Speaker 1: seem like useful things. And then he was talking about
Speaker 1: how talent and skills and gifts were to help people
Speaker 1: and that life was about serving people and life was
Speaker 1: about improving other people's lives. And I was like, I
Speaker 1: think that resonated with me too, because I guess I'd
Speaker 1: seen people have painful lives that made sense, and I
Speaker 1: was like, all right, I want that. And I think
Speaker 1: when I first started my monk could I even redirected
Speaker 1: the validation to the monks. So it's almost like I
Speaker 1: went from wanting my parents validation to wanting all my
Speaker 1: friends validation, to then wanting the monks validation, which I
Speaker 1: imagine monks would say, like, this is not what you're
Speaker 1: here for. Really, yeah, And that's why it was the
Speaker 1: best shutdown, because your parents will validate you for doing
Speaker 1: what they said, right, they pretty much will. Parents will
Speaker 1: generally say yeah, good, well done. Your friends never validate
Speaker 1: you and make you feel inferior. And then it's like
Speaker 1: the monks teach you how to validate yourself and what
Speaker 1: that means. And so I think that those three years
Speaker 1: I learned the habits and the steps to like what
Speaker 1: does it mean to validate myself? And I think when
Speaker 1: I had to leave, that's when I really learned to
Speaker 1: validate myself because now I couldn't seek anyone's validation because
Speaker 1: I just lived the random as life and no one
Speaker 1: could say to me, yeah, you're on the right path,
Speaker 1: because it was such a random path to go from
Speaker 1: university to the monka then back to reality. And so
Speaker 1: I think that was the moment where it clicked for
Speaker 1: me that the only person who could reassure me was me.
Speaker 1: And I think that was really tough being mothered again,
Speaker 1: because the other thing then was before I became a monk,
Speaker 1: it was You're never going to get a job again,
Speaker 1: You're never going to make money again, no one's ever
Speaker 1: going to marry you. This is the worst decision. You're
Speaker 1: letting your parents down. You wasted their investment in your education.
Speaker 1: To then coming back to we told you so, we
Speaker 1: knew you wouldn't make it as a monk. You wasted
Speaker 1: your life, you know, three years old? Or didn't you
Speaker 1: see that friend of you as they just bought a
Speaker 1: new car. They they're getting a mortgage on a house,
Speaker 1: like you know, and you come back to that and
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, wow, I'm out of place again. And
Speaker 1: so I think now I've just got so used to
Speaker 1: being out of place that it's become my place and
Speaker 1: I enjoy it now. I love being out of place.
Speaker 1: This journey to monk could you you listed some things
Speaker 1: about like this inspirational, influential person that you met as
Speaker 1: a young person, and it's like, that's what I want
Speaker 1: to be, or at least it's like, I don't want
Speaker 1: to be him, but I just want to be I
Speaker 1: didn't want to be him, and I failed. I can't.
Speaker 1: He's so amazing, it's incredible. Yeah, it sounds like that
Speaker 1: journey turned into from I want to be him too.
Speaker 1: I want to be someone that I want to be. Yes,
Speaker 1: and those things you listed, like somebody that is not
Speaker 1: comparing themselves to others, like all these things. That's stuff
Speaker 1: I think often is what leads people to bully other people.
Speaker 1: So I wonder if there's like some piece of you
Speaker 1: that wanted to understand the bullies. Yeah, I definitely. I've
Speaker 1: never been a bully in my life for sure, Like
Speaker 1: that is never something I became. And even when I'm
Speaker 1: talking about being a class clown or things like that,
Speaker 1: it was never. Maybe I bullied teaches a bit, so yeah,
Speaker 1: so I was a bully, but not bully to kids,
Speaker 1: which is even worse. I feel so terrible. I feel
Speaker 1: terrible saying that, Yeah I bullied. Yeah, we used to
Speaker 1: be a class clown. It's a bully of teachers, but
Speaker 1: I didn't bully the kids. That doesn't make it any better,
Speaker 1: but it's And then now I have good relationships with
Speaker 1: all those teachers, which is their their kindness to me.
Speaker 1: I went back and apologize to everyone when I learned
Speaker 1: that I had messed up, and thankfully, I think most
Speaker 1: of those teachers have forgiven me and kind of didn't
Speaker 1: take it. They didn't take it as seriously as I
Speaker 1: made it out to me, which was really kind of
Speaker 1: them and nice to them as well, Like they were
Speaker 1: just like, Jay, you were a kid, Like it's fine.
Speaker 1: But I think I definitely felt at one point that
Speaker 1: I had to go back and apologize and just not
Speaker 1: feel like my actions were justified just because I was
Speaker 1: a kid. You had just mentioned that this this inspirational
Speaker 1: person right, had all these qualities, right, And it's like
Speaker 1: I was thinking while you were saying, that's like, oh,
Speaker 1: those are some of the things that lead people to
Speaker 1: bully others, right, It's like their comparison stuff and just
Speaker 1: like the feelings that they have about themselves or not
Speaker 1: about themselves, And it's like, what do you think of
Speaker 1: the bullies? I guess now that you've reflected so much
Speaker 1: on yourself, what about these people that caused your suffering?
Speaker 1: Do you think about them? And this is one of
Speaker 1: those things I feel bad about as well, Like it
Speaker 1: is something that I don't talk about it because I
Speaker 1: feel bad about it. It's like I've just always been
Speaker 1: a very naturally forgiving person since I was a kid,
Speaker 1: Like I don't find forgiveness hard. And that's annoying sometimes
Speaker 1: because you can annoy people I love too, because I
Speaker 1: can kind of move on and get on with stuff
Speaker 1: and understand that people didn't have. I kind of contextually
Speaker 1: will figure out what they didn't have. Again, Forgiveness doesn't
Speaker 1: mean I allow bad things to happen around me or
Speaker 1: two people I love. I don't mean in that way.
Speaker 1: I mean that I've never been one to hold grudges.
Speaker 1: It's just not how I'm built and not how I'm wired.
Speaker 1: And so I don't think I wanted to understand the bullies.
Speaker 1: I think I wanted to help heal the bullies, or
Speaker 1: just I wanted to help heal myself and I wanted
Speaker 1: to help heal others, and I wanted the skills to
Speaker 1: do that because I just saw so much pain for
Speaker 1: no reason. I think that's how I've always felt. I
Speaker 1: feel like most conflict and most pain is based on
Speaker 1: such insignificant, irrelevant desires and emotions in the sense of
Speaker 1: you think about why people fight with each other or
Speaker 1: even at a grand scale, like why people do bad things.
Speaker 1: It's deep trauma or it's deep issue for them, for sure,
Speaker 1: but it's something that could have been helped if given
Speaker 1: the right support. And so there's a part of me
Speaker 1: that just believes that I just didn't want people to
Speaker 1: have to make bad decisions just because they didn't. I
Speaker 1: made bad decisions in my life, not because I was
Speaker 1: a bad person, but because I didn't have good information.
Speaker 1: So I was like, if we gave people with bad
Speaker 1: experiences and bad parenting and bad childhood's good tools and
Speaker 1: good skills and good experiences, then maybe they could avoid
Speaker 1: repeating that. And I think that's what I saw in
Speaker 1: the monks, where it almost felt like data renewed or
Speaker 1: they'd regenerated, where they weren't carrying the weight of their
Speaker 1: past either. And I'm not saying that about every month
Speaker 1: in the world. I'm just saying the ones that the
Speaker 1: couple of people that I know, everyone in the monk
Speaker 1: who is also in hospital, in the sense that they're
Speaker 1: also all improving. It's not that you're perfect if you're there.
Speaker 1: But the few people that I had seen it gone
Speaker 1: the distance gave me faith that they were happier and
Speaker 1: more content than the person who's got the fancy job
Speaker 1: in my city and still feels insecure. Right, it was
Speaker 1: almost like seeing I think it was more that I
Speaker 1: was seeing that the method of I think by eighteen,
Speaker 1: I had seen people perfectly follow the academic system to
Speaker 1: get into a school to do a degree they didn't
Speaker 1: want to do. And I'd see in friends be extreme,
Speaker 1: take risks, make mistakes, get into trouble, potentially end up
Speaker 1: in jail or you know, something of that. And so
Speaker 1: it's like I'd seen the polar opposites of like, here's
Speaker 1: a kid who does everything wrong who's ended up here,
Speaker 1: and here's a kid who does everything right and they're
Speaker 1: not happy either. So then how does that make any sense?
Speaker 1: Like the person who's ended up in prison or in trouble,
Speaker 1: who's all got kicked out of school is not happy,
Speaker 1: and the person who's just got access to the best
Speaker 1: college in the country is not happy. Like how does
Speaker 1: that make sense? And I think that's where I was, like,
Speaker 1: and this guy's happy, Like, what does he figured out?
Speaker 1: And he's done something completely different? Right, He's he's not
Speaker 1: followed the status quo and he's not he's broken the
Speaker 1: status quo, but in a interesting way. And I don't
Speaker 1: think that that is only gained by being a monk.
Speaker 1: But it's an interesting idea that fascinated me was I
Speaker 1: didn't want to follow the rules, and I didn't want
Speaker 1: to break the rules. I want to define a way
Speaker 1: to not have rules, or find better rules, or create
Speaker 1: my own rules, or just like look for freedom of authenticity.
Speaker 1: You mentioned something about like I wasn't able to live
Speaker 1: authentically and something deep inside of you wanted that. It
Speaker 1: sounds like, really, your whole life is about, or has
Speaker 1: been about, like identifying something that's desirable or undesirable and
Speaker 1: either fully embracing or fully rejecting it in order to
Speaker 1: get closer to this place of just feeling at peace. Yeah,
Speaker 1: while this seems very important to you, while being able
Speaker 1: to help other people and prevent any pain and suffering
Speaker 1: for them in whatever ways that I can, And it
Speaker 1: seems like the bullying, the racism, the ostracizing, all these
Speaker 1: things that you experience as a child, like it's still
Speaker 1: with you now. You know, you don't want others to
Speaker 1: suffer because suffering doesn't feel good, And it seems like
Speaker 1: you took your suffering and turned it into something that's
Speaker 1: like really impactful, I would hope so. And I think
Speaker 1: I did that since I was young with my parents.
Speaker 1: I'd listen to my parents about their challenges and their issues,
Speaker 1: and I'd sit with pretty much everyone since I was
Speaker 1: a kid and hear them out and you know, walk
Speaker 1: them through it. And I think for a long time,
Speaker 1: until I became a monk, I never had time for
Speaker 1: my own problems in one sense, because you're already always
Speaker 1: dealing with other peoples and that's not smart. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I think you're right. I think there was a long
Speaker 1: time in my life where I definitely want to end
Speaker 1: optional pain or optional pain. It's what you talk about, like,
Speaker 1: there's there's stuff that you want to end that you
Speaker 1: can control or help people end it so that they
Speaker 1: can stop that pattern in their family or that that
Speaker 1: generational challenge or whatever it may be. So yeah, I
Speaker 1: think that was definitely a big part of why I
Speaker 1: followed this road. Yeah, definitely have put my pain into purpose.
Speaker 1: And that sounds like a cliche and it sounds like
Speaker 1: a you know, an overset thing. Maybe now, But when
Speaker 1: I was doing everything right or being the good kid,
Speaker 1: life wasn't fun. And I knew I wanted life to
Speaker 1: be a thrill, and then I thought being the bad
Speaker 1: kid was what gave me a thrill. But I actually
Speaker 1: didn't enjoy that thrill. It was very uncomfortable because none
Speaker 1: of what I was doing was aligned with my values.
Speaker 1: And I think the life I have today is a
Speaker 1: life that perfectly. My life is massively thrilling, so fun,
Speaker 1: and it's purposeful and it's impactful, and so today I
Speaker 1: have that mix. But it took me going from one
Speaker 1: end of the spectrum to the other end of the
Speaker 1: spectrum to figure out. And I'm not saying it's a balance.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's in the middle. I don't think
Speaker 1: it is. I think it's just creation and invention and
Speaker 1: building of Yeah, who do I want to be? And
Speaker 1: am I okay being that? And am I okay being that?
Speaker 1: Even if I have pure intentions and even if I care,
Speaker 1: and even if I'm trying to do the right thing.
Speaker 1: There will still be people who don't understand me and
Speaker 1: don't agree with me, and becoming okay with that has
Speaker 1: been really the goal of my life of reason. I like,
Speaker 1: that's been what I been focused on, at least for
Speaker 1: the last few years, is how do I get acceptance
Speaker 1: of who I am genuinely yea and being okay with that,
Speaker 1: like I am someone who enjoys. I talk about this
Speaker 1: like I love being a monk, and there's so much
Speaker 1: of my life where I still think like a monk.
Speaker 1: But I love being an entrepreneur. I get so much
Speaker 1: out of growing something and building something and scaling it.
Speaker 1: I love being a podcast host and at the same time,
Speaker 1: I love being an author, and I like, I love
Speaker 1: all aspects of me and I'm okay being them, even
Speaker 1: if they're contradictory, because I don't want to limit myself anymore.
Speaker 1: I think I limited myself in the beginning based on
Speaker 1: what society kind of put out, and then I limited
Speaker 1: by being with the bad kids and what that meant.
Speaker 1: And I was like, I don't want to limit myself
Speaker 1: because of what people think anymore, because that never made
Speaker 1: me happy, and of course that has limits to it,
Speaker 1: Like you know, I wouldn't do anything painful or hurtful,
Speaker 1: And I'm not going that far. I'm just saying that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I want to allow myself to be every part of
Speaker 1: me that's authentic and real and true, even if it's
Speaker 1: contradictory or paradoxical to other people. Getting to a place
Speaker 1: in life where you can let go of all the shoulda,
Speaker 1: coulda would us And like even when you say I'm
Speaker 1: doing things that might be contradictory, I'm glad you added
Speaker 1: to other people. It sounds like something important to you
Speaker 1: has been and you're achieving this now, as like being
Speaker 1: able to do stuff and move to your life and
Speaker 1: just not really place a lot of value and what
Speaker 1: other people think of it, how people perceive it or
Speaker 1: accepted in whatever, and in that journey, Like when people
Speaker 1: are like that and they exude this thing about them
Speaker 1: where they get the validation from themselves, a side effect
Speaker 1: often is that people begin to like you. People want
Speaker 1: to be around you because it's that thing that someone
Speaker 1: did for you. It's like I want to be him,
Speaker 1: or at least I want to be around him. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And that comes with its own pain points where it's
Speaker 1: like you don't want anyone to become like you, because
Speaker 1: you know that it wasn't smart when you wanted to
Speaker 1: be like someone and say you're like, please don't become
Speaker 1: like me, because again you go on that journey. But
Speaker 1: sometimes you have to go on that journey of wanting
Speaker 1: to be like someone to figure out who you are.
Speaker 1: And and it also becomes hard because you also realize
Speaker 1: that people like a facet of you or a part
Speaker 1: of you that they experience. And yeah, it's it's hard
Speaker 1: not to want to be liked. And it's and I
Speaker 1: would I enjoy being liked. I don't think i'd be
Speaker 1: lying if I was like, oh, I don't want to
Speaker 1: be liked. That's true. I like being liked. It's a
Speaker 1: wonderful feeling to be liked. You just don't want to.
Speaker 1: You've now stopped yourself becoming moldible and malleable to be liked.
Speaker 1: I think that's what it is. It's like you're not
Speaker 1: willing to break yourself in order to be liked. Is
Speaker 1: what has changed? Man? How much better does it feel
Speaker 1: to be liked for just being who you are and
Speaker 1: for accepting who you are? That's much better and satisfaction
Speaker 1: I think is much greater than being liked for try
Speaker 1: so hard to be what you think that they will like. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I remember like the payer pressure of drinking alcohol when
Speaker 1: I quit drinking alcohol because I started spending too much
Speaker 1: time with monks and they weren't really into drinking alcohol.
Speaker 1: So that was like a big moment of starting to
Speaker 1: do something. So I was someone who was always the
Speaker 1: life of the party by that age and like fun
Speaker 1: to be around and would love playing drinking games, and
Speaker 1: I was a competitive drinker and I've always been a
Speaker 1: competitive person, so that I would apply to any area
Speaker 1: of my life. And then I went from like that
Speaker 1: after one summer holidays coming back and being like, hey,
Speaker 1: I don't drink anymore, and all my friends were like
Speaker 1: what is wrong with you? Like that was such a
Speaker 1: big identity shift for people. And when I got through that,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, you can change your identity, Like
Speaker 1: you can you can change and people come with you.
Speaker 1: And those same people who thought I was cool for
Speaker 1: drinking were still my friends. And now I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: like I thought I was going to lose all those
Speaker 1: people because I didn't drink anymore. Because I wasn't going
Speaker 1: out to parties anymore. And doing this and that, but
Speaker 1: I didn't like there was more to me than that,
Speaker 1: more to me than my preferences and my interests. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And so I think credit to those friends who stuck
Speaker 1: around too when I got into spirituality and wisdom based
Speaker 1: stuff like not everyone there are certain friends who like
Speaker 1: that's too much, and there are certain friends who come
Speaker 1: with you on the journey too, And so I think
Speaker 1: that was another thing. I think there have been lots
Speaker 1: of pivots in my life where I've made tough choices
Speaker 1: about what identity I have and how I portray that
Speaker 1: to people and being okay with the risk that that
Speaker 1: may mean that I may become irrelevant as some people.
Speaker 1: And I think that's what's now built that strength and
Speaker 1: confidence because it's just been so long of having done that,
Speaker 1: but a long journey to kind of integrate, reconcile so
Speaker 1: much of your childhood and what's important to you now?
Speaker 1: How did you get through all of this? I mean,
Speaker 1: I know you're sitting in front of me right now,
Speaker 1: but it's like, I guess, like a final thing I'd
Speaker 1: like to kind of reflect on with you is just like,
Speaker 1: what do you think the small child J had to
Speaker 1: get through all this, we talked about some stuff that
Speaker 1: maybe we think it is now, but the only thing
Speaker 1: that ever comes down to it is like this, and
Speaker 1: it's a beautiful feelings like I know my mom loves me,
Speaker 1: and it's almost like that's like the I know that
Speaker 1: if if anything was to fall apart, my mom would
Speaker 1: turn out like and obviously she's still alive, and obviously
Speaker 1: when she won't be here anymore one day, it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, I guess I'll still feel it. Internally, I don't.
Speaker 1: Obviously I haven't lived with my mom for years, so
Speaker 1: I've still felt that. But I think it's always been
Speaker 1: that confidence of like, my mom loves me, and that's
Speaker 1: that's kind of the only thing I can go to them,
Speaker 1: like when you've been And that's not to say that
Speaker 1: my mom, you know me are perfect, but I feel
Speaker 1: like when you've received like that kind of pure love
Speaker 1: from someone, it's hard to think you need anything else.
Speaker 1: So that's the only answer I can actually come up with. It.
Speaker 1: That's all I ever had was I knew that. So
Speaker 1: even when I took risks, or even when I have
Speaker 1: taken risk and whether they failed or they went right,
Speaker 1: my mom was always there to catch me. And so
Speaker 1: when I was doing badly at school, it's like as
Speaker 1: in in terms of getting involved in the wrong circles.
Speaker 1: My mom was upset with me, but she still caught
Speaker 1: me with love. And so my parents would discipline me,
Speaker 1: but they still caught me with love. And I think
Speaker 1: that balance was really interesting where it's like, I mean,
Speaker 1: there was there was months where I was suspended from
Speaker 1: school and my mom had to go pick up homework
Speaker 1: and then bring it back and I'd do it from home,
Speaker 1: and like, there were so many reasons my parents could
Speaker 1: have been so upset with me, and they were. They
Speaker 1: didn't just drop me in that sense. They weren't just
Speaker 1: like you're a failure and you messed up and you're
Speaker 1: you know it was and they were strict and they
Speaker 1: were disciplining, and they were you know, they were tough
Speaker 1: on me when I was growing up, but I think
Speaker 1: they also had had love behind that. For me, there
Speaker 1: was a good balance between discipline, making you know you
Speaker 1: made a mistake, making sure that you are remorseful and
Speaker 1: regretful and that you've trying to get better, but that
Speaker 1: there was a forgiveness and an acceptance that you made
Speaker 1: a mistake and you can change. So even when I
Speaker 1: came back from the monastery, or they've they've just they
Speaker 1: just caught me every time. And so I think that
Speaker 1: gives you a sense of security that your laws love
Speaker 1: no matter what. Love is very powerful, and it's clear
Speaker 1: that you radiate love for yourself and love for existence. Whyever,
Speaker 1: we have all that, So I do sense that love
Speaker 1: will carry you through so much in your entire life.
Speaker 1: So I'm really glad that you had that, because not
Speaker 1: all people do. That's what it is, right, That's that's
Speaker 1: what I find so hard, is that a lot of
Speaker 1: this stuff becomes easier when you've had kind of like
Speaker 1: a very loving relationship with a parent and then my
Speaker 1: monk teachers who also love me in the same way.
Speaker 1: And so it's having those people, I think, having pillars
Speaker 1: of of love in your life. It's like, you know,
Speaker 1: and that's what I'm trying to be for anyone I meet,
Speaker 1: Like I try and be that with everyone I meet.
Speaker 1: I want to have. I want to be a vessel
Speaker 1: of so much love that I could help everyone feel
Speaker 1: that way. They don't have to be my child, or
Speaker 1: they don't have to be my best friend in the
Speaker 1: world to feel that. I want everyone who comes into
Speaker 1: my world to feel that way if I could, And
Speaker 1: so I kind of walk around wanting to have that
Speaker 1: energy always. And that's harder because it comes with a
Speaker 1: lot of challenges of your own. And yeah, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for this, this conversation. This is a beautiful
Speaker 1: and it's you know, when you're doing this, I consider
Speaker 1: myself someone who's done a lot of this reflection. I'm
Speaker 1: speaking to everyone who's back at home now, or whether
Speaker 1: you're walking a dog, or whether you're cooking or you know,
Speaker 1: whatever you're up to right now as you're listening and
Speaker 1: watching this, I feel like I've done so much self
Speaker 1: reflection that if I'm sitting down like this, the question
Speaker 1: can be like what do you gain or what do
Speaker 1: you learn? I find conversations like this useful regardless of
Speaker 1: whether I discover something new, because I think we've placed
Speaker 1: such an emphasis on what's new, what's new, what's new?
Speaker 1: And to me, it's not always what's new to me,
Speaker 1: it's like, well, what kind of sat deeper? Like what
Speaker 1: kind of like went deeper for me? What was an
Speaker 1: idea that I shared with you that, even if it
Speaker 1: wasn't a new dot that was connected for me. It's like,
Speaker 1: but that dot was strengthened, and I think of strength
Speaker 1: and depth more important than new again, like, I feel
Speaker 1: like so many ideas I have today got strengthened. So
Speaker 1: many ideas that I already have today gained more depth
Speaker 1: by talking to you and the questions you asked. I
Speaker 1: also felt that I was able to be vulnerable and
Speaker 1: open up with you and on my platform, and I
Speaker 1: was trying all the time to not really filter what
Speaker 1: I was saying, and I think that's a habit that
Speaker 1: I find very therapeutic to water, which is why we're
Speaker 1: doing this. And I was definitely I brought up some
Speaker 1: old memories that I hadn't visited for a while, and
Speaker 1: even though they didn't those memories may not be ones
Speaker 1: that I have huge emotion attached to, but they were
Speaker 1: useful in pinpointing some of the beginnings of some ideas
Speaker 1: and beginning of some good and bad habits. And I
Speaker 1: think I find that very interesting. So looking back and
Speaker 1: going where did this start? Where did this start? And
Speaker 1: sometimes it's just happy, like I'm like, oh right, I
Speaker 1: realized that I started helping people at that age, or
Speaker 1: I just eating too. I studying too fast for that age,
Speaker 1: and that stayed with me and I enjoy finding that connection.
Speaker 1: So I find conversation like I'm walking away feeling very happy, reassured,
Speaker 1: and you know, a sense of definitely love. Like ending
Speaker 1: with that was really beautiful, a leg to just think
Speaker 1: about my mom in that way. And when you ask,
Speaker 1: like what if you what got you through? And that's
Speaker 1: the only thing that I could think of. It's also
Speaker 1: nice when you realize what got you through is something
Speaker 1: that someone gave you, and then you live in gratitude
Speaker 1: because of that. So yeah, I think lots of wonderful reminders,
Speaker 1: lots of wonderful reassurance is very therapeutic. I feel very
Speaker 1: heart opened, very healed, which is always you know, it's beautiful.
Speaker 1: And so I think when you're sitting with your therapists,
Speaker 1: if you already go to therapy, new is good, but
Speaker 1: look for strength and depth as well in ideas that
Speaker 1: you are trying to gain clarity over if you don't
Speaker 1: already go to therapy. I hope this helps show you
Speaker 1: that it was just a genuine conversation. It wasn't I
Speaker 1: wasn't forced to go anywhere. I don't want to. It's
Speaker 1: very self reflective for me to see whether I found
Speaker 1: supporting it or help in it or you know. And
Speaker 1: I also loved how you explained why you were asking
Speaker 1: certain questions. I found that very useful, and so I
Speaker 1: encourage you. If you have a therapist right now who
Speaker 1: doesn't do that, they may not know that you like that.
Speaker 1: And if you're like me and you like that, feel
Speaker 1: free to ask your therapist that as well, and say, hey,
Speaker 1: by the way, like when you ask me a question,
Speaker 1: could you explain to me why you're asking it and
Speaker 1: like where it sits? And sometimes they may say no
Speaker 1: because that may defeat the purpose of the question, and
Speaker 1: sometimes they may say yes and they'll explain it. And
Speaker 1: so I think it's important that you see as that
Speaker 1: relationship too, where you're able to ask for those explanations.
Speaker 1: And I wouldn't have asked for them, but now that
Speaker 1: you've done it, I'm like, oh, they really helped me,
Speaker 1: Like those were great explanations. So heys you any last
Speaker 1: words for anyone who's been listening or watching. I didn't
Speaker 1: have any till that last comment. Like, I would also
Speaker 1: encourage anybody to bring up their questions, challenge their therapists.
Speaker 1: A lot of people are unwilling to do that because
Speaker 1: they don't want to cross the therapist. They want the
Speaker 1: therapist to like them. They don't want to do something
Speaker 1: that they think will rupture the relationship. But this is
Speaker 1: one of the safest places to practice bringing up uncomfortable questions.
Speaker 1: This is something we all struggle with, especially in our
Speaker 1: significant relationships with our family. But it's like, that's what
Speaker 1: the therapist is there to help you practice and get through,
Speaker 1: is asking hard questions, being challenged as another person. You know,
Speaker 1: if your therapist says or does something that you don't like,
Speaker 1: bring it up. Yeah, Otherwise it's going to be inside
Speaker 1: of you and more than like, your therapist is going
Speaker 1: to be able to feel that something is weird. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And if you don't bring it up, they're probably going
Speaker 1: to ask you about it. So that's a great opportunity
Speaker 1: to then bring it up. And I think there were
Speaker 1: pots where it's not that I disagreed, but that I
Speaker 1: was like, I'm not sure about that. I actually feel this,
Speaker 1: and I feel very comfortable to do that, and I
Speaker 1: didn't feel like judge by you or that you were
Speaker 1: upset that I did that. You would make an observation,
Speaker 1: I'd be like, well, no, it's more like this, and
Speaker 1: I think it doesn't have to become a yeah, it
Speaker 1: doesn't have to become an agreeing disagreeing thing. It's just
Speaker 1: a flowing, evolving thing. And then actually it's something new
Speaker 1: that I think for me was to admit to someone
Speaker 1: that I do feel bad sometimes about not feeling bad
Speaker 1: about something like that was big for me, because yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's hard when you're wide a certain way and
Speaker 1: you don't know why, and it's beneficial and I think
Speaker 1: being able to get that off my chest is actually
Speaker 1: quite nice. And to all of you as well. We've
Speaker 1: been listening and watching where it's like, yeah, some things
Speaker 1: do come naturally to me and easily to me, and
Speaker 1: I can't help that. I didn't pay for that and
Speaker 1: ask for that. I didn't get that subscription when I
Speaker 1: came into life, right, it wasn't to some people who
Speaker 1: would be like, well, you didn't even achieve that or
Speaker 1: earn that, But I'm hoping that that's what helps me
Speaker 1: help other people, is that there are certain things that
Speaker 1: not that I haven't had to figure out, but that
Speaker 1: have come in a helpful, healed way, so yeah, thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you. Everyone's been listening and watching at home.
Speaker 1: Please do share the things that stood out to you.
Speaker 1: Please do pass on. If this episode helped you, I
Speaker 1: really hope it will encourage yourself, people, and your family
Speaker 1: friends to have these conversations, even if it is with
Speaker 1: your friend, and then encourage them to go to therapy
Speaker 1: as well, and hopefully show you or hopefully gives an
Speaker 1: example of me going to therapy in this session and
Speaker 1: making it easier and accessible for people to think and
Speaker 1: understand how normal and how okay all of these things are.
Speaker 1: And of course I want to give a big thank
Speaker 1: you to our partner, Better Help, who's encouraging these conversations
Speaker 1: and giving affordable access to therapy online from the comfort
Speaker 1: of your home. So thank you very much again, really
Speaker 1: appreciate you all. This episode was sponsored by better Help
Speaker 1: Online Therapy. Big thanks again to Hey Sue Joe, head
Speaker 1: of clinical operations at better Help. So just so you know,
Speaker 1: this was a therapy session that you got to get
Speaker 1: a look inside of. But hey, Sue Joe is not
Speaker 1: my therapist. We do not have a therapist client relationship.
Speaker 1: But I wanted to show you what a therapy session
Speaker 1: could look like also just because you might hear something
Speaker 1: on the show that sounds similar to what you're experiencing.
Speaker 1: Beware of self diagnosis. You want to find a qualified
Speaker 1: professional to assess and explore diagnosis if that's important to
Speaker 1: you