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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast am on

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Speaker 1: iHeart Radio and welcome back to Coast to Coast George

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Speaker 1: Norri with you along with Judge James Gray, has been

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Speaker 1: a trial judge in Orange County, California since nineteen eighty three.

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Speaker 1: Before becoming a judge, served as a volunteer in the

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Speaker 1: Peace Corps in Coasta, Rica's staff judge advocate and criminal

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Speaker 1: defense attorney in the Navy Jag Corps, and a federal

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Speaker 1: prosecutor in Los Angeles, a civil litigator, attorney in private

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Speaker 1: law firms, and addition to being a Republican candidate for

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Speaker 1: US Congress in nineteen ninety eight, it was a Libertarian

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Speaker 1: candidate for US Senate in two thousand and four. Jim,

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Speaker 1: Welcome back, Judge. Good to have you. George is always

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Speaker 1: nice to be with good people, and you have some

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Speaker 1: really interesting listeners out there too. You make an impact,

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Speaker 1: so it's always nice to share thoughts with good people.

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Speaker 1: They are the best. As a matter of fact, a

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Speaker 1: lot of them got a hold of you on one

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Speaker 1: of your appearances on our show, didn't they. George. It's

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Speaker 1: true and it really led me into a brand new project.

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Speaker 1: I was with you. It was a year ago, the

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Speaker 1: worth of July, and as a result of that, I

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Speaker 1: received letters from twelve people incarcerated all around prisons in

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Speaker 1: our country, and I started a correspondence with them, and

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Speaker 1: I just asked them what's life like inside a prison?

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Speaker 1: And I quote Fyodor Dufzievsky, who is that Russian novelist,

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Speaker 1: and he said, you can tell more about a society

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Speaker 1: by walking into its prisons than you can any other way.

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Speaker 1: And I fear that we would not fare quite so

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Speaker 1: well that from what I'm understanding, things are not good

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Speaker 1: in our prisons, and we need to bring transparency to

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Speaker 1: prisons because they're in It's our government, George, as you know,

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Speaker 1: and if it's not working, it's our responsibility to do

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Speaker 1: something about it. And I think that we have an

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Speaker 1: obligation to treat people in our custody with a minimum

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Speaker 1: the least of security, nutrition, medical care, and I don't

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Speaker 1: think that's happening. There's about two million people in prisons

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Speaker 1: right now, and I think about half of them. Judge,

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Speaker 1: you're listening to our program right now, Well, that could be.

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Speaker 1: You do certainly have a following, But I understand the

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Speaker 1: United States of America, George has five percent of the

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Speaker 1: world's population and twenty five percent of its prisoners. There

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Speaker 1: was a US Senator from Virginia named Jim Webb who

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Speaker 1: heard those statistics and said something truly quotable, which is,

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Speaker 1: either we're the most criminally oriented people in the world

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Speaker 1: or we're doing something wrong. Which do you think it is?

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Speaker 1: And I think I know, it's just we've overdone the incarceration.

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Speaker 1: And that's not to say that we don't need prisons.

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Speaker 1: We have some people out there that see us as

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Speaker 1: their local, as their logical prey, and we have to

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Speaker 1: remove them from society. But we have overdone the mandatory

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Speaker 1: minimum sentencing, the three strikes and you're out that sort

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Speaker 1: of thing, and we need to get a grip on it.

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Speaker 1: Are you saying making the conditions better or just trying

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Speaker 1: to get rid of people who have been incarcerated for

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Speaker 1: way too long? The answer of both both questions. You know,

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Speaker 1: we have people in there that are unable to even

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Speaker 1: they couldn't even throw their walker at you they wanted to.

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Speaker 1: You know, they're they're feeble, they're not harmed anybody. If anything.

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Speaker 1: Let's put them all into one place so that you

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Speaker 1: know it's an elderly prison and treat them with more dignity.

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Speaker 1: But we have people that are serving mandatory minimum sentences

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Speaker 1: of twenty years because they've been possessing child pornography from

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Speaker 1: the Internet. Now, look, I fully understand child pornography is

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Speaker 1: a miserable thing, but they didn't cause it. They didn't

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Speaker 1: buy it, you know, they just download it. Put them

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Speaker 1: in jail. Put them in prison for three or five years,

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Speaker 1: they will have the full deterrent effect. Twenty years is

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Speaker 1: just ridiculous, especially if none of them has harmed a child. Well,

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Speaker 1: and that's right, and I'm not a sociologist, but some

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Speaker 1: say that, you know, if they have had that inclination,

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Speaker 1: they can satisfy it by looking at pictures instead of

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Speaker 1: going out and actually harming people, which is in that

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Speaker 1: good thing, you know, George, Mandatory minimum sentences are wrong.

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Speaker 1: But no one in Congress or anywhere else can determine

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Speaker 1: the right full sentence for somebody. They don't know who

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Speaker 1: it is, they don't know what the background is, they

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Speaker 1: don't really know what the offense is. They don't know

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Speaker 1: how badly the victims were injured, if at all. Leave

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Speaker 1: judges from the sums discretion, And I'm my remedy in

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Speaker 1: that because obviously some judges sentence harsher and some more lightly.

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Speaker 1: But make a panel of three judges to sentence together

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Speaker 1: on all three of their cases, so that'll kind of

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Speaker 1: bring things much more in the norm, and I think

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Speaker 1: that we should do that. But mandatory minimum sentences are

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Speaker 1: wonderful for politics and politicians, but they're terrible for everyone else.

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Speaker 1: How many people do you think, judge are in prison

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Speaker 1: over petty drug god crimes? Oh? Me, many, many, too

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Speaker 1: many many, of course, George, for parole violations. You know,

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Speaker 1: we have. It's Norco State Prison here in California. It's

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Speaker 1: in Riverside County. They have a recidivism rate within like

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Speaker 1: a year and a half of ninety percent. That you know,

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Speaker 1: you go in there, say you're addicted to cocaine, whatever.

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Speaker 1: You really don't get any drug treatment when you're there.

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Speaker 1: You get out, you're a convicted felon, you can't get

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Speaker 1: a job, your family's pretty much deserted. You you're still

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Speaker 1: addicted to cocaine. So what do you do, Well, you

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Speaker 1: go back and take some cocaine because you get depressed,

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Speaker 1: and then you fail a drug test and bam, you're

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Speaker 1: back in prison again. It's just it's a revolving door,

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Speaker 1: very expensive for the taxpayer and doesn't do any good.

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Speaker 1: But again, don't let me be misunderstood. People like Charles

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Speaker 1: Manson that sort of thing. They deserve to be in prison,

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Speaker 1: but they should have a minimum threshold of security, nutrition,

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Speaker 1: and healthcare, and we're not giving that to them. Shame

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Speaker 1: on us. I know a guy who was raised in

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Speaker 1: the inner city in Saint Louis. I had a tough upbringing,

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Speaker 1: did some stupid things when he was a kid, and

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Speaker 1: went to jail for it and paid his time When

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Speaker 1: he came out years later, he's an adult and he

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Speaker 1: gets a job as a security guy without a gun,

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Speaker 1: of course, an unarmed security guy, and he loved his job.

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Speaker 1: He was, you know, like in a store watching people,

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Speaker 1: making sure there was no one stealing things and stuff

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Speaker 1: like that. He went out and bought a handgun. He

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Speaker 1: got or he got a gun, and his girlfriend turned

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Speaker 1: him into the Feds. He got nine years in prison

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Speaker 1: for it. He's still serving and I'm thinking to myself,

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Speaker 1: he's a nice guy, he's honest, he's dependable. Nine years

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Speaker 1: for this because he made a mistake. That's crazy. Well,

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Speaker 1: it is crazy. There's no justification except politics. But there

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Speaker 1: are some real things, George, that work. We have a

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Speaker 1: group here in southern California called Open Gate International, and

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Speaker 1: they will take women that have previously been sexually used,

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Speaker 1: they will take people that have finished their drug rehabilitation.

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Speaker 1: They'll take people that have been paroled after being incarcerated

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Speaker 1: in prison and teach them to become chefs and cooks.

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Speaker 1: It's a twelve week program. They don't charge for it,

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Speaker 1: and they're successful in getting jobs, pretty high level jobs

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Speaker 1: for their graduates. About seventy five percent of them they

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Speaker 1: have a job, and the recidivism rate plummets. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you have a job, you're much much less likely

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Speaker 1: to go back into the lifestyle that you were raised with.

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Speaker 1: I mean, we need to focus more on those things. Again,

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Speaker 1: I'm not coddling criminals, but we have many, many, too

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Speaker 1: many people in prison today that simply flat out should

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Speaker 1: not be there. They're in my reporter days in Detroit, Judge,

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Speaker 1: I had a chance to tour the Wayne County Jail

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Speaker 1: in Wayne County, Michigan, and that's a place you don't

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Speaker 1: want to be. I mean, it's a mess. Why are

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Speaker 1: we upgrading the prisons? Is it just cost too much money? George.

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Speaker 1: I am on a project now to try to bring

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Speaker 1: transparency to prison. You know, if you are in prison,

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Speaker 1: there are a lot of horror stories that you hear,

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Speaker 1: and of course I understand some people exaggerating. Some people

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Speaker 1: don't tell the truth, both in prison hand out, by

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Speaker 1: the way, but there's there's fights that are set up

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Speaker 1: sometimes by prison guards. They have no political power, no

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Speaker 1: political clout, and so you know, there's some men that

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Speaker 1: had told me I have black mold in my prison cell,

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Speaker 1: and he's said in all he's turned it into to

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Speaker 1: the warden, and the warden conducted an investigation and said, no,

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Speaker 1: you don't. Well come on, bring allow people in the media,

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Speaker 1: like George Nurray, for example, allow them free access to

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Speaker 1: all of our nation's prisons so that they can go

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Speaker 1: and they can consistent with security issues, of course, but

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Speaker 1: let them then talk with the inmates, talk with the warden,

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Speaker 1: and report on those cases that they feel or justified.

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Speaker 1: Giving the wardens also equal times that tell their side

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Speaker 1: of the story. But shine a light on it, because

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Speaker 1: goodness sakes, George, we the people are in charge of

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Speaker 1: this country again, and if it isn't working, it's up

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Speaker 1: to us expose these things and have prison guards wear

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Speaker 1: body cameras, just like now we're requiring the police to you.

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Speaker 1: And I know full well that if we're stopped by

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Speaker 1: a police officer and we know that it's being recorded,

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Speaker 1: we're going to act a lot better, and so's the

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Speaker 1: police officer. Same thing in our prisons. You know, we

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Speaker 1: just need to bring transparency, and right now it is

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Speaker 1: not there. What about other countries, I mean, we hear

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Speaker 1: horror stories from China, Russia and North Korea, but what

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Speaker 1: about other countries? What are they doing? You know, Western

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Speaker 1: Europe only has about maybe ten to fifteen percent of

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Speaker 1: the incarceration rate that we do. And they teach rehabilitation,

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Speaker 1: they teach job training, they get education. They don't treat them.

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Speaker 1: They give them jobs. By the way, we have a

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Speaker 1: lot of inmates jobs. But they are paid something like

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Speaker 1: eighteen cents an hour, and of course, if they committed

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Speaker 1: some form of offense, which they did, and they have

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Speaker 1: restitution to make to their victims, of the eighteen cents

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Speaker 1: an hour, half of that goes to the victims. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm not arguing with that, but you have no incentive

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Speaker 1: to work in anything if you're going to receive like

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Speaker 1: nine cents an hour. So we need to change those

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Speaker 1: things as well. But I tell you, job training really

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Speaker 1: reduces recidivism rate. That's what the European countries focus on. No, George,

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Speaker 1: you and I do not want to be in prison

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Speaker 1: in China or Russia or North Korea. The more civilized

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Speaker 1: countries have a much much lower incarceration rate, and they're

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Speaker 1: much much lower recidivism rate because they actually do this.

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Speaker 1: In California, we call them correctional facilities. George. There's nothing

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Speaker 1: correctional about them. It's just a warehousing and it's a

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Speaker 1: vicious place to be. When skeptics, we'll talk to you

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Speaker 1: and say, Judge, you know, these people are criminals. They've

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Speaker 1: broken the law. Some of them have robbed banks, they've

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Speaker 1: robbed the people, they've hurt people. Why do we want

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Speaker 1: to panda to them? How do you answer that, Well,

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Speaker 1: it's not a question of pander. It's a question that

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Speaker 1: I don't care if you're al capone or you know,

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Speaker 1: whatever you've done. We as a civilized society have a duty,

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Speaker 1: a moral obligation to treat people within a minimum of healthcare.

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Speaker 1: I received two days ago, George, a note from a

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Speaker 1: man who is incarcerated, who said that his wife is

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Speaker 1: also incarcerated in a federal penitentiary, and she had breast

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Speaker 1: cancer and had a lump removed that turned out to

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Speaker 1: be cancerous six months ago. Now she has another lump

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Speaker 1: in her breast and she can't even see a medical doctor.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's just horrendous. That's not right, and that's

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Speaker 1: what's going on ostensibly. I don't know. People exaggerate the

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Speaker 1: rest of that, although I bet a lot of them

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Speaker 1: are listening to us right now. I told them. They

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Speaker 1: asked me when I was going to be on again,

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Speaker 1: and I told somebody. But you know, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: But we need to get the media in there to

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Speaker 1: then investigate these things, and if they're horrendous things happening,

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Speaker 1: shine a light on it. If there aren't, then, by

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Speaker 1: the way, if you come up for parole parole hearing,

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Speaker 1: obviously you're not reformed because you're lying, you know, if

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Speaker 1: that's sort of thing. So it's a two way sword.

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Speaker 1: But these are things that we need to focus a

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Speaker 1: light on. And I'm trying to help and I'm asking

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Speaker 1: everybody listening here to join the cause. How do they

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Speaker 1: join Judge, Well, go to Judge Jimgray dot com and

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Speaker 1: I will keep you apprized of that. That's my website

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Speaker 1: and I'm trying to publish an article in a newspaper

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Speaker 1: now and then try to get that out to people.

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Speaker 1: I'll try to send it to governors who control prisons.

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Speaker 1: Allowing access to people from the media into the prisons

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Speaker 1: against consistent with security issues. But we as as a

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Speaker 1: civilized society, need to know what's going on to people

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Speaker 1: that are in our custody. Listen to more Coast to

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Speaker 1: Coast AM every weeknight at one am Eastern and go

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Speaker 1: to Coast to Coast am dot com for more