WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 18 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.480 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:06.160 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:06.280 --> 0:00:09.399 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:09.480 --> 0:00:13.240 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:13.280 --> 0:00:15.760 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:17.720 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:19.919 there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you 0:00:19.960 --> 0:00:28.520 can make your own decisions. Hey, welcome to it could 0:00:28.520 --> 0:00:32.800 happen here. I'm Garrison, and today I'm gonna be talking 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:38.360 about some really big things and ideas, but hopefully I'll 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:41.840 be talking with them in a way that contextualizes them 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:45.280 and makes you remember that despite their magnitude, there's still 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:49.680 very real things that you can interact with. Anyway, I'll 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:52.360 get started and eventually it will kind of make sense. 0:00:53.320 --> 0:00:57.400 So right now we are all living in one massive 0:00:57.520 --> 0:01:01.760 liminal space. For those less online than I am, I'll 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:05.480 explain what I mean. Liminal spaces became an online meme 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:08.920 around late twenty nineteen as a term to describe a 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:12.319 certain type of picture that features architecture or like just 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:20.760 a place that looks off familiar, eerie, lonely, yet mesmerizing 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:25.040 and beautiful. I've been an avid lurker on the liminal 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:28.880 space subredit for a while now, and there's an undeniable 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:33.480 allure to these dreamlike photos of buildings and rooms and 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:37.800 the effect that they have on me. Describing what makes 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:41.600 a liminal space photo a liminal space photo as opposed 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:44.160 to just any other regular photo of a building or 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:48.279 a room can be tricky because, in part the point 0:01:48.360 --> 0:01:51.320 is to elicit a certain feeling without thinking too much 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:56.080 about the why they're not spooky or scary in the 0:01:56.080 --> 0:01:59.840 traditional sense. The gist of a liminal space photo and 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:02.840 where it gets its name liminality, is a good place 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:06.960 to begin to understand what type of feelings these pictures 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:12.000 are supposed to produce. Liminal refers to a transitional phase 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:17.160 and the ambiguity and disorientation associated with being inside of 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:21.080 a threshold, not on either one side, per se, but 0:02:21.360 --> 0:02:26.080 somewhere in between. Now, that threshold can be many things. 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:30.880 A literal transitionary threshold between certain places is a common one. 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:35.760 This can include stuff like hallways and airports. One of 0:02:35.800 --> 0:02:40.520 my favorites, though, is a threshold between time, an ambiguous, 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:45.440 unspecific nostalgia. You can't quite place, but it feels awfully familiar, 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:50.840 like a dream from childhood. Pictures of weird indoor, squishy 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:55.000 playgrounds do this for me. The other threshold is a 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:58.959 threshold between purpose and use, like a building or room 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:03.840 designed for a very specific special purpose but now no 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:07.280 longer serving that it's empty and out of date, an 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:11.160 abandoned mall, or cheery birthday party room at an arcade 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:15.920 photographed desolate and in the dark. There's two other aspects 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:20.280 of liminal space photos that complement the various thresholds we've mentioned. 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:24.160 Usually they have no visible people, and there's a sense 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:28.600 of artificiality, like a lot of fluorescent and artificial lighting, 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:32.799 and even when there is a sunny outside, it looks fake, 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:37.400 like a Windows computer screensaver. One of the most popular 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:40.920 liminal space photos is of an underground bunker in Las 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:44.440 Vegas that was painted and decorated to look like it's 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:49.000 outside despite being buried deep within the ground. It's such 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:51.920 a great example of liminal spaces because it elicits a 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:55.360 certain type of cognitive dissonance and a distinct lack of 0:03:55.400 --> 0:04:00.440 synchronicity that is difficult to describe otherwise. Almos never is 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:05.160 quote unquote nature the subject of these photos. They nearly 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:09.960 exclusively focus on very human constructs, particularly ones that no 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:13.880 longer serve their intended use or maybe never did in 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:17.800 the first place. So what do I mean by we're 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:22.240 all in one huge liminal space right now? Well, we 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:26.480 are in between a historic economic and technological boom, one 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:29.960 that's produced machines that resemble the magic of old. But 0:04:30.080 --> 0:04:33.400 on the other side of this valley is global climate 0:04:33.440 --> 0:04:37.240 catastrophe and destruction and change, the likes of which humans 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:41.080 have possibly never seen or at least remembered. We're in 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:45.720 the transitionary period between these two states, and that disassociation 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:48.800 and not being fully in either one, that that cognitive 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:52.159 dissonance can be kind of mind boggling. It's like the 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:56.080 nervous anticipation right before the roller coaster goes over the peak, 0:04:56.600 --> 0:04:59.640 or that weird feeling of being alone in an empty 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:06.200 church nursery at night. Similar to liminal space photos, climate 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:10.680 change transcends a regular perception of time space, and with 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:16.320 that cause and effect, it's more than just a regular thing, phenomenon, 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:21.839 or object. While specifically thinking about climate change, philosopher Timothy 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:28.800 Morton dubbed these massive space time altering objects as hyper objects. Now, 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:32.760 Morton often writes about things that can't be talked about directly, 0:05:33.000 --> 0:05:34.880 so really the only way to discuss it or get 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:38.640 into the topic is to orbit around it, associating with 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:42.200 adjacent ideas or words to get close enough to the 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:45.000 topic to partially understand it, even if you can't get 0:05:45.160 --> 0:05:50.119 quite there. Other possible examples of hyper objects besides climate change, 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:54.080 can include stuff like black holes, the biosphere, or the 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:58.200 solar system. But hyper objects don't need to be just 0:05:58.480 --> 0:06:01.880 massive celestial things. They can also be the sum total 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:05.320 of all nuclear materials on Earth, or the very long 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:09.000 lasting product of direct human manufacture, such as all of 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:12.360 the styroform of plastic bags in the world. It can 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:15.240 also be the sum of all the whirling machinery of 0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:20.600 capitalism or the state. Hyper objects, then, are hyper just 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:24.400 in relation to some other entity, whether they're directly manufactured 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:29.600 by humans or not. And hyper objects aren't just collections, 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:34.720 systems or assemblages of other objects. They are things in 0:06:34.760 --> 0:06:37.840 their own right, and they affect more than just humans. 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:42.000 They don't come into being just because humans notice them. 0:06:42.040 --> 0:06:44.640 They will have effects on the world whether or not 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:49.760 they are observed One of the more obvious differences between 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:54.280 hyper objects and ordinary objects that you can't ever actually 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:57.920 see a hyper object in its totality. You can only 0:06:57.960 --> 0:07:02.559 ever witness a small extension or piece of a hyper object. Now, 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:05.880 this makes thinking about them kind of intrinsically tricky. It's 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:09.360 like only seeing a fragmented shadow of a thing and 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:13.720 the effects that that thing has on all other things. Now, 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:17.720 the more contrarian listeners might protest that we never see 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:21.640 all of any object, even ordinary ones. Now, it's obviously 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:25.000 true that everything we see has a negative side, the 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:28.440 part behind that we can't actually always look at, but 0:07:28.600 --> 0:07:32.760 can reasonably assume is there. Now, the difference is that 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:37.720 hyper objects transcend not only a regular conception of physical reality, 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:42.000 but more so our temporal reality. You can hold a 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:44.760 coffee monk and rotate it around in a pretty short 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:48.880 amount of time and witnessed each side and angle, Or 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:50.920 if you wanted to get really fancy, you could make 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:53.960 a three sixty scan so you can see a projected 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:57.360 version of the entire object, Or you know more, simply 0:07:57.480 --> 0:08:00.160 just get three people in a room to all look 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:03.120 at different sides of the mug, thus forming a consensual 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:08.160 reality based understanding of the whole object. Now, not only 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:12.160 can you not hold a hyper object, but even if 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:15.120 you could, the temporal effects would make it impossible to 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:19.160 rotate it around to witness the totality of what's being held, 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:22.760 and it would be way too big for multip people 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:27.280 to ever witness all sides of the thing. Quoting from 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:31.640 Morton's book hyper Objects, The Philosophy and Ecology After the 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:36.960 End of the World, quote, consider raindrops. You can feel 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:39.880 them on your head, but you can't perceive the actual 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:44.240 raindrop in itself. You can only ever perceive your particular 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:48.920 anthropomorphic translation of the raindrops. Isn't this similar to the 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:51.640 rift between weather, which I can feel falling on my head, 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:56.760 and global climate, not the older idea of local patterns 0:08:56.760 --> 0:09:00.400 of weather, but the entire system. I can think of 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:04.160 an compute climate in this sense, but I can't directly 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:07.920 see or touch it. The gap between the phenomenon and 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:12.320 the thing yawns wide open, disturbing my sense of presence 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:15.800 and being in the world. Humans have been aware of 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:19.560 enormous entities, some realism imagined for as long as we 0:09:19.600 --> 0:09:22.360 have existed, but this book is arguing that there is 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:26.800 something quite special about the recently discovered entities such as climate. 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:30.560 These entities directly cause us to reflect on our very 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:34.280 place on Earth and in the cosmos. Perhaps this is 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:38.280 the most fundamental issue. Hyper objects seem to force something 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:41.640 on us, something that affects some core idea of what 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:45.960 it means to exist, what Earth is, what society is. 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:50.440 There's no doubt that cosmic phenomenon such as meteors and 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:55.640 blood red moons, tsunamis, tornadoes, and earthquakes have terrified humans. 0:09:55.640 --> 0:10:01.560 In the past, meteors and comets were known as does asters. Literally, 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:06.040 a disaster is a fallen, dysfunctional, or dangerous or evil 0:10:06.200 --> 0:10:11.800 star disaster. But such disasters take place against a stable backdrop. 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:17.439 There is the Ptolemaic Aristolian machinery of the stars, which 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:21.960 hold fixed stars in place. It seems as if there's 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:26.000 something about hyper objects that is more deeply challenging than 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:31.880 these disasters. The worry is not whether the world will end, 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:35.319 as in the old models of the disaster, but whether 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:39.240 the end of the world is already happening, or whether 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:43.800 perhaps it might have already taken place. A deep shuttering 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:48.800 of temporality than occurs. For one thing, we are inside 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:51.920 hyper objects like Jonah in the Whale. This means that 0:10:52.000 --> 0:10:55.160 every decision we make is in some sense related to 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:59.599 hyper objects. These decisions are not merely limited to sentences 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:02.680 and to be about hyper objects. When I turned the 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:05.360 key in the Ignition of my Car, I am relating 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:08.920 to global warming. When a novelist writes about the immigration 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:13.959 to Mars, they are relating to global warming. I am 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:17.120 one of the entities caught in the hyper object that 0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:23.319 I here call global warming. Different hyper objects have numerous 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:26.920 properties in common, but for our purposes we're going to 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:32.160 discuss the five main points of similarity. Hyper Objects are viscous, 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:35.479 meaning they stick to beings that are involved with them. 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:38.880 They are nonlocal, in other words, and any local manifestation 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:42.280 of the hyper object is not directly the hyper object. 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:47.360 They involve very different temporalities than the human scale ones 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:50.840 that were used to In particular, some very very large 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:56.000 hyper objects have a genuine Gaussian temporality. They generate space 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:59.920 time vortexes due to general relativity, and hyper objects are 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:04.560 ocupy a higher dimensional phase space that results in their 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:08.439 being invisible to humans for structures of time, and they 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:12.000 exhibit their effects inter objectively. That is, they can be 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:15.760 detected in a space that consists of inter relationships between 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:20.079 aesthetic properties of objects. The hyper object is not just 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:24.040 a function of our knowledge. It is also hyper relative 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:28.760 to worms, lemons, and ultra violet rays as well as humans. 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:33.000 Now I'm going to go into the five different points 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:35.720 of similarity in more detail to kind of help flesh 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:40.080 out what these things hyper objects, what they are, and 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:42.720 how they might actually be a useful way to think 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:48.160 about really big stuff. So, first off, viscous hyper objects 0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:51.720 adhere to any object they touch, no matter how hard 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:55.479 the objects tries to resist. In this way, hyper objects 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:59.200 overrule ironic distance, meaning that the more an object tries 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:02.360 to resist a hyper object, the more glued to the 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:06.040 hyper object it becomes. Now, the more you learn about 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:08.920 any big topic, the more you'll end up noticing it 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:12.559 in the world. This is the law of synchronicity. But 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:14.719 the more you know about climate change, the more you 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:19.439 realize how perversive it is. The more you discover about evolution, 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:23.160 the more you realize how much our entire physical being 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:27.560 is caught in its meshwork. Immediate intimate symptoms of hyper 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:32.360 objects are very real, vivid, and often painful. Yet they 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:37.520 carry with them this trace of unreality. A good example 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:42.920 of hyper object viscosity would be radioactive materials. The more 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:44.800 you try to get rid of them, the more you 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:50.120 realize you can't. They seriously undermine the notion of a 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:55.520 way there is no away. Flushing vomit down the toilet 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:57.720 doesn't make it disappear. It makes its way to the 0:13:57.720 --> 0:14:01.760 ocean or the water treatment facility, and eventually just back 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:05.360 to us. Again. I'll quote from the book hyper Objects 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:09.400 quote late itself is the most viscous thing of all, 0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:14.520 since nothing can surpass its speed. Radiation is Sartra's jar 0:14:14.679 --> 0:14:18.400 of honey par excellence, a luminous honey that reveals our 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:22.440 bone structure as it seeps around us. Again, it's not 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:25.760 a matter of making some suicidal leap into the honey, 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:31.360 but discovering that we are already inside it. This is it, folks, 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:35.080 This is the ecological interconnectedness. Come in and join the fun. 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:40.360 But I see that you're already here. Unquote. Yeah, that 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:44.800 is a that's fun. The next point of similarity where 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:50.040 to discussed, is the molten or Gaussian quality. Hyper Objects 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:53.400 are time stretched to such an extent that they become 0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:57.280 impossible to hold in the mind. Hyper objects are so 0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:01.200 massive that they refute the idea that spacetime is fixed, concrete, 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:04.720 and consistent. The size of hyper objects can make them 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:09.200 basically invisible, just because they're so big. It's like swimming 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:11.920 in Crater Lake in southern Oregon, one of the deepest 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:14.240 lakes in the world. But it's not just deep, it's 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:19.440 also very very clear. So the water is so deep 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:22.360 yet so clear. It's like you're swimming in the sky. 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:25.440 It's like you're swimming in nothing. It would be like 0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:28.320 if you approach an object and more and more objects 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:32.280 emerge because we can't see the end of them. Hyper 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:37.160 objects are necessarily uncanny. They have to be. Just like 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:41.120 my favorite liminal space photos. Hyper objects seem to beckon 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:45.440 us further into themselves, making us realize that we're already 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:49.400 lost inside them. The recognition of being caught in hyper 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:53.800 objects is precisely a feeling of strange familiarity and a 0:15:53.840 --> 0:16:01.680 familiar strangeness. Next up is non locality. Hyper objects are 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:05.200 massively distributed in time and space, such as any particular 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:10.600 local manifestation never actually reveals the totality of the hyper object. 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:14.440 For example, climate change is a hyper object that impacts 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:21.000 meteorological conditions, such as tornado formations. Objects don't feel climate change, 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:27.520 but instead experienced tornadoes as they cause damage in specific places. Thus, 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:30.920 nonlocality describes the manner in which a hyper object becomes 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:36.240 more substantial than the local manifestations that they produce, putting 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:41.200 moreton again. For a flower, nuclear radiation turns its leaves 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:44.840 a strange shade of red. Global warming for the tomato 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:48.880 farmer rots the tomatoes. Plastic for the bird, strangles it 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:52.080 as it becomes entangled in the set of six pack rings. 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:55.360 What we are really dealing with here are just the 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:59.520 aesthetic effects that are directly causal the octopus of the 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:02.760 hyper object amidst a cloud of ink as it withdrawals 0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:06.280 from access. Yet this cloud of ink is a cloud 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:11.480 of its effects and effects. These phenomenon themselves are not 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:16.000 global warming or radiation. Action at a distance is involved. 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:20.879 It's like confusing the map with the territory. Type of 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:24.960 objects cannot be thought up as occupying a series of 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:29.719 now points in time or space. They confound the social 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:33.600 and psychic instruments we use to measure them. Even digital 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:37.480 devices have trouble. Global warming is not just a function 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:41.240 of our measuring devices. Yet, because it's distributed across the 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:44.520 biosphere and beyond, it's hard to see it as a 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:48.560 unique entity. And yet there it is raining down on us, 0:17:48.600 --> 0:17:52.800 burning down on us, quaking the earth, spawning giant hurricanes. 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:57.080 Global warming is an object of which many things are 0:17:57.240 --> 0:18:00.399 distributed pieces, the rain drops falling on my head in 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:03.760 northern California, the tsunami that pours through the streets of 0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:08.920 Japanese towns, the increasing earthquake activity based on changing pressure 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:12.760 on the ocean floor like a moving illusion picture. Glibal 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:17.160 warming is real, but it involves a massive, counterintuitive perspective 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:21.000 shift for us to see it. Convincing some people of 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:25.480 its existence is like convincing some two dimensional flatland people 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:29.000 of the existence of apples based on the appearance of 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:33.840 a morphing circular shape in their world. Next point of 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:39.240 similarity is phasing. So our sense of being in a 0:18:39.440 --> 0:18:44.760 time and inhabiting a place depends on forms of regularity, 0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:48.720 the periodic rhythms of day and night, the sun coming up. 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:52.600 Only now we know that it doesn't really come up. 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:56.960 It's now common knowledge that the moon's phases are just 0:18:57.240 --> 0:19:00.760 the relationship between the Earth and the Moon as circumnavigate 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:04.719 to the Sun. Hyper objects seem to phase in and 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:08.280 out of the human world. They occupy a higher dimensional 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:11.439 phase space that makes them impossible to see as a 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:16.159 whole on our regular three dimensional human scale basis, but 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:19.600 they might appear differently to an observer with a higher 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:23.600 dimensional view. We can only see pieces of a hyper 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:26.679 object at a time. The reason why they appear non 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:30.760 local and temporarily for shortened is precisely because of this 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:35.200 trans dimensional quality. We can only see pieces of them 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:38.880 at once, like a tsunami or a taste of radiation sickness. 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:42.479 If an apple were to invade a two dimensional world, 0:19:43.080 --> 0:19:45.720 first the stick people would see some dots as the 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:48.639 bottom of the apple touched their universe, and then a 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:52.480 rapid succession of shapes that would appear like an expanding 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:56.440 and contracting circular blob, diminishing into a tiny circle, possibly 0:19:56.440 --> 0:20:00.920 a point, and then disappearing. That's why you can't directly 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:04.040 see climate change. You would need to occupy some higher 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:09.439 dimensional space to see the hyper object unfolding explicitly. Like 0:20:09.680 --> 0:20:12.240 the people in the two dimensional flat land, we can 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:15.679 only see brief patches of this gigantic object as it 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:20.480 intersects with our world. The brief patch called hurricane destroys 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:24.359 the infrastructure of New Orleans. The brief patch called drought 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:27.440 burns the plains of Russia and the Midwestern United States 0:20:27.520 --> 0:20:32.840 to a crisp our. Bodies itch with yesterday's sunburn. But 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:37.680 don't relegate hyper objects as a simple abstract notion. The 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:42.040 game of hyper objects as transdimensional real things is valuable. 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:46.480 Global warming is not simply a mathematical abstraction that doesn't 0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:50.680 really pertain to this world. Hyper Objects don't just inhabit 0:20:50.760 --> 0:20:54.760 some conceptual beyond in our heads or out there. They 0:20:54.760 --> 0:20:58.919 are real objects that affect other objects. We tend to 0:20:58.920 --> 0:21:01.840 only think about hyper objects as they phase in and 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:06.320 connect to other, more static objects. This is a mistake 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:10.000 and contributes to non action. Whether or not we perceive 0:21:10.119 --> 0:21:14.719 objects and hyper objects connecting doesn't affect the existence and 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:19.080 the inevitable effects of the hyper object. What we experience 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:23.240 as the slow periodic re occurrence of a celestial event 0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:27.480 such as an eclipse or a comet, is a continuous 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:30.719 entity whose imprint simply shows up on our social and 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:35.480 cognitive space for a while. The gaps I perceive between 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:38.600 moments at which my mind is aware of the hyper object, 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:41.960 and moments at which it isn't do not matter in 0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:46.320 relation to the hyper object itself. Okay, and now onto 0:21:46.440 --> 0:21:51.560 our final point of similarity. Inter Objective hyper objects are 0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:56.600 formed by relations between more than one object. Consequently, objects 0:21:56.640 --> 0:22:00.320 are only able to perceive the imprint or foot print 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:05.240 of a hyper object upon other objects revealed as information. 0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:11.080 It's all an ecological mesh of interconnectedness and inter objectivity. 0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:16.000 For example, climate change is formed by interactions between the sun, 0:22:16.160 --> 0:22:22.320 fossil fuels, carbon dioxide, economic growth, among other things. Yet 0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:26.880 climate change is made apparent through emissions levels, temperature changes, 0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:30.800 and the sea level rising, making it seem as if 0:22:30.800 --> 0:22:34.160 global warming is a product of scientific models rather than 0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:39.440 connected to an object that predates its own measurement. Hyper 0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:43.800 Objects exist in and between objects and things we deal 0:22:43.840 --> 0:22:48.440 with every day, but it's not simply those objects. Plastic 0:22:48.480 --> 0:22:53.240 bags are not climate change, but those things are both intertwined. 0:22:53.760 --> 0:22:57.520 Hurricanes are not climate change, but they can be a 0:22:57.600 --> 0:23:03.280 shadow like local manifestation of it. A mesh consists of 0:23:03.359 --> 0:23:08.119 relationships between criss crossing strands and the gaps between strands. 0:23:08.800 --> 0:23:13.040 Meshes are a potent metaphor for the strange interconnectedness of things, 0:23:13.640 --> 0:23:18.200 and interconnectedness that does not allow for perfect, lossless transmission 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:22.560 of information, but is instead full of gaps and absences. 0:23:23.280 --> 0:23:26.960 When an object is born, it is instantly meshed into 0:23:27.000 --> 0:23:31.560 a relationship with other objects in the mesh. The mesh 0:23:31.840 --> 0:23:35.600 isn't inside of all things, but it's on the edge 0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:40.359 or floats on top of all things. Inter objective mesh 0:23:40.720 --> 0:23:44.640 is the extra connecting layer between the mass and the 0:23:44.720 --> 0:23:50.000 mask of all objects, almost like a universal skin fascia. 0:23:51.240 --> 0:23:55.240 Inter objectivity provides a space that is ontologically in front 0:23:55.320 --> 0:24:01.000 of objects in which relational phenomenon can emerge. The massiveness 0:24:01.000 --> 0:24:04.560 and distribution of hyper objects simply force us to take 0:24:04.640 --> 0:24:08.679 note of this fact. Hyper objects provide great examples of 0:24:08.840 --> 0:24:12.480 inter objectivity, namely the way in which nothing has ever 0:24:12.560 --> 0:24:17.399 experienced directly, but only as mediated through other entities in 0:24:17.520 --> 0:24:23.080 some shared consensual space. We never hear the wind in itself, 0:24:23.520 --> 0:24:26.760 only the wind in the door, the wind in the trees. 0:24:27.720 --> 0:24:30.800 This means that for every objective system, there is at 0:24:30.880 --> 0:24:35.240 least one entity that is withdrawn from the relationship. We 0:24:35.320 --> 0:24:38.600 see the footprint of a dinosaur left in some ancient 0:24:38.720 --> 0:24:42.240 rock that was once a pool of mud. The dinosaur's 0:24:42.280 --> 0:24:46.879 reality exists inter objectively. There is some form of shared 0:24:47.000 --> 0:24:52.000 space between the rock, ourselves, and the dinosaur, even though 0:24:52.119 --> 0:24:57.320 the dinosaur isn't there directly. The print of a dinosaur's 0:24:57.400 --> 0:25:00.520 foot in the mud is seen as a foot shaped 0:25:00.640 --> 0:25:05.120 whole in a rock by humans sixty five million years later. 0:25:05.840 --> 0:25:10.080 There is some sensuous connection then, between the dinosaur, the rock, 0:25:10.600 --> 0:25:16.000 and the human, despite their vastly differing time scales. The 0:25:16.040 --> 0:25:21.200 dinosaur footprint in fossilized mud is not a dinosaur. Rather, 0:25:21.400 --> 0:25:25.159 the footprint is a trace of the hyper object evolution 0:25:25.520 --> 0:25:30.120 that joins me, the dinosaur, and the mud together, along 0:25:30.160 --> 0:25:33.520 with the intentional act of holding them in the mind. 0:25:39.160 --> 0:25:42.479 I found the hyper object banner as a useful tool 0:25:42.640 --> 0:25:44.760 to help my brain think about things that are just 0:25:45.000 --> 0:25:48.320 too big, things that have effects so spaced out in 0:25:48.400 --> 0:25:52.560 time that using our ordinary models of thought are just inadequate. 0:25:53.320 --> 0:25:56.280 You can also reconcile the opposing views that cast climate 0:25:56.359 --> 0:26:00.160 change as the very real series of disasters or are 0:26:00.200 --> 0:26:03.120 a complicated, interlocking mess of systems that can feel very 0:26:03.320 --> 0:26:08.080 unreal and overwhelming. Just thinking of big things as abstract 0:26:08.119 --> 0:26:11.800 systems has the habit of divorcing you from the real 0:26:11.880 --> 0:26:15.919 world impacts things like hyper objects can cause. Sometimes we 0:26:16.000 --> 0:26:19.040 forget that climate change is a thing we interact with 0:26:19.119 --> 0:26:24.760 every day and can inform choices we make. Now the 0:26:25.160 --> 0:26:30.439 almost impossible to comprehend totality of our situation. It's not 0:26:30.520 --> 0:26:33.560 great for mental well being. You can end up tail 0:26:33.640 --> 0:26:38.120 spinning down a black hole of fate, conspiracy, coping, denial, 0:26:38.240 --> 0:26:41.480 and doom. It's very easy to trip and fall into 0:26:41.560 --> 0:26:45.280 a void of negation. Things that are hyper objects fundamentally 0:26:45.320 --> 0:26:48.800 break our conception of reality temporality and cause an effect. 0:26:49.400 --> 0:26:52.399 And it's already a really weird time to try to 0:26:52.480 --> 0:26:56.399 suss out reality. We're constantly being bombarded with products and 0:26:56.440 --> 0:27:00.679 services trying to usurp the real That's what Mark Kotting is. 0:27:01.280 --> 0:27:04.440 You know, first we had the Internet with its limitless 0:27:04.480 --> 0:27:07.960 possibilities as a digital universe. Then we got the world 0:27:08.000 --> 0:27:12.720 of social media with all of its fractured and fractal realities. 0:27:13.640 --> 0:27:16.439 There's a massive gaming and the allure of getting lost 0:27:16.520 --> 0:27:20.359 within thousands of unique worlds. And now we have VR 0:27:20.680 --> 0:27:25.359 a R and the metaverse, more layers of digital fabrication 0:27:25.480 --> 0:27:29.240 trying to be passed off as an almost hyper reality, 0:27:29.760 --> 0:27:32.760 a promise to make a reality even more real and 0:27:32.760 --> 0:27:38.200 immersive than our status quo. The Internet itself is another 0:27:38.280 --> 0:27:42.760 hyper object, and all this extra reality can take a 0:27:42.880 --> 0:27:47.320 strain on the human mind. De realization, the perception that 0:27:47.440 --> 0:27:51.560 actual waking reality is an artificial construct. The feeling of 0:27:51.600 --> 0:27:55.240 being de attached from your surroundings, like the world's made 0:27:55.240 --> 0:27:58.800 of cardboard, or you're looking at everything through a cloud 0:27:58.880 --> 0:28:02.879 of fog, is becoming more and more common, especially among 0:28:03.280 --> 0:28:06.359 so called gen Z, the generation that drew up with 0:28:06.359 --> 0:28:10.600 the Internet being a staple of life. Now. How we 0:28:10.720 --> 0:28:13.800 got here is a disassociation between humans and what we 0:28:13.920 --> 0:28:18.480 call nature or the environment. The problems aren't getting fixed 0:28:18.480 --> 0:28:21.960 because we're so disassociated from the effects, just as the 0:28:22.000 --> 0:28:26.400 effects are from the cause. That resulting alienation of all 0:28:26.520 --> 0:28:30.080 things makes this worse. All of the worst effects the 0:28:30.080 --> 0:28:34.320 climate change aren't going to be felt for hundreds of years. 0:28:34.359 --> 0:28:37.880 And that is a weird feeling. That is cognitive dissonance 0:28:37.920 --> 0:28:40.800 that I don't know how to understand that, and that 0:28:40.840 --> 0:28:45.120 makes making decisions about our situation now feel distant yet 0:28:45.160 --> 0:28:48.560 also urgent. It's both and it's neither, and it's confusing. 0:28:49.960 --> 0:28:53.040 The resulting alienation of all things makes this worse. It 0:28:53.120 --> 0:28:56.760 produces this lack of immediate and close and proximity consequences. 0:28:57.320 --> 0:29:01.760 We must purposely remove these layers of separation and abandoned 0:29:01.760 --> 0:29:07.560 our anthropocentric thinking. Nature isn't other from us. We are nature, 0:29:07.640 --> 0:29:10.360 It's the same thing. We are all part of this 0:29:10.480 --> 0:29:15.200 big mesh. This, this sacred idea of nature isn't natural 0:29:15.280 --> 0:29:18.160 and can never be naturalized. We have to learn how 0:29:18.240 --> 0:29:22.640 to have an ecology without nature, with without nature as 0:29:22.640 --> 0:29:27.080 a separate thing. To have a genuine ecological view, we 0:29:27.160 --> 0:29:31.840 must relinquish this idea that nature being separate from us, 0:29:32.000 --> 0:29:34.880 once and for all. We have to kill the anthroprosyne 0:29:35.080 --> 0:29:38.960 in our own head. A quote from one of Morton's 0:29:39.000 --> 0:29:44.240 other books titled Ecology Without Nature. Putting something called nature 0:29:44.400 --> 0:29:47.800 on a pedestal and admiring it from afar does for 0:29:47.840 --> 0:29:51.320 the environment what patriarchy does for the figure of a woman. 0:29:52.040 --> 0:29:58.400 It's a paradoxical act of sadistic, possessive admiration unquote. So 0:29:59.040 --> 0:30:03.160 within more, in branch of philosophy, reification, the making of 0:30:03.160 --> 0:30:06.600 a thing into a thing is precisely the reduction of 0:30:06.760 --> 0:30:10.840 a real object to its sensual appearance for another object. 0:30:11.320 --> 0:30:16.920 Reification is reduction of one's entity to another's fantasy about it. 0:30:17.720 --> 0:30:21.720 Nature is a realification in this sense, and that's why 0:30:21.760 --> 0:30:25.400 we need an ecology without nature. Maybe if we turn 0:30:25.520 --> 0:30:30.280 nature into something more fluid, it might work. Now, most 0:30:30.320 --> 0:30:34.680 of our modern political discourse can be boiled down to 0:30:34.840 --> 0:30:38.720 what things are real and what things are not. Hyper 0:30:38.760 --> 0:30:41.520 objects and climate change don't just play into this debate, 0:30:41.720 --> 0:30:45.080 but crash into it, decimating all the other toys in 0:30:45.160 --> 0:30:49.280 this sandbox. As Morton says, the threat of global warming 0:30:49.360 --> 0:30:53.680 is not only political but also ontological. The threat of 0:30:54.160 --> 0:30:59.080 unreality is the very sign of reality itself. And oh boy, 0:30:59.200 --> 0:31:03.920 do we be experiencing this simultaneous disillusionment of reality and 0:31:03.960 --> 0:31:08.120 the overwhelmingly real presence of hyper objects which stick to us, 0:31:08.200 --> 0:31:12.200 which are us. The worry is not whether the world 0:31:12.280 --> 0:31:15.760 will end, but whether the end of the world is 0:31:15.800 --> 0:31:20.040 already happening, or whether perhaps they might have already taken place. 0:31:21.440 --> 0:31:23.600 The idea of the end of the world is very 0:31:23.640 --> 0:31:27.920 active in environmentalism, but the way it's usually framed kind 0:31:27.960 --> 0:31:31.320 of fosters its own negation. The end of the world 0:31:31.400 --> 0:31:35.360 is coming idea is not really effective, since to all 0:31:35.400 --> 0:31:38.760 types of purposes, the being that we are supposed to 0:31:38.880 --> 0:31:42.920 feel anxiety about and care for is actually already gone. 0:31:43.800 --> 0:31:46.680 This does not mean that there's no hope for ecological 0:31:46.720 --> 0:31:50.440 politics and ethics and a better future. Far from it. 0:31:50.720 --> 0:31:53.760 In fact, Morton and I would argue that the strongly 0:31:53.800 --> 0:31:56.240 held belief that the world's about to end unless we 0:31:56.280 --> 0:31:59.880 act now is paradoxically one of the most powerful factors 0:31:59.880 --> 0:32:05.160 that inhibit a full engagement with our ecological coexistence here 0:32:05.200 --> 0:32:08.960 on Earth. The strategy of the ecological hyper object concept 0:32:09.280 --> 0:32:12.160 is to then awaken us from this dream that the 0:32:12.160 --> 0:32:15.360 world's about to end, because action on Earth, like the 0:32:15.400 --> 0:32:18.320 real Earth, depends on it, the end of the world 0:32:18.400 --> 0:32:23.720 has already happened. Using the hyper object idea helps sort 0:32:23.760 --> 0:32:26.840 out these overly systematic things into a package that I 0:32:26.880 --> 0:32:30.920 can actually think about. There's something about discovering the language 0:32:30.960 --> 0:32:33.880 for a feeling, being able to name it that is 0:32:34.040 --> 0:32:38.800 empowering a way of finding handhold in the dim light 0:32:39.040 --> 0:32:43.640 of confusion, rather than scrambling around in the dark. So 0:32:44.320 --> 0:32:47.920 how would you convince two dimensional flatland people of the 0:32:47.960 --> 0:32:51.480 existence of apples based on the occasional phasing appearance of 0:32:51.480 --> 0:32:56.120 a morphing circular shape in their world. Now, hyper objects 0:32:56.200 --> 0:32:59.520 can really assist in understanding the cognitive dissonance around to 0:32:59.560 --> 0:33:02.719 climate and a nial. You can't point to something like 0:33:02.840 --> 0:33:06.560 rising sea levels and say that is climate change, because yeah, 0:33:06.600 --> 0:33:11.320 that isn't climate change. The hyper object rising sea levels 0:33:11.360 --> 0:33:15.160 are just an environmental effect, and since the effects are 0:33:15.200 --> 0:33:18.400 so disattached from the cause, that fosters a lot of 0:33:18.480 --> 0:33:21.680 room for cognitive dissonance. When people point at extreme weather 0:33:22.000 --> 0:33:25.880 and call it something else. It's our lack of ecology. 0:33:26.120 --> 0:33:30.480 Are seeing of interconnected things as separate problems or manifestations, 0:33:31.240 --> 0:33:34.320 missing the fact that almost all of our problems don't 0:33:34.360 --> 0:33:37.600 have a shared root cause, but instead are just part 0:33:37.640 --> 0:33:42.720 of a massive, shared bungee cord like mesh network. When 0:33:43.000 --> 0:33:46.720 so many local manifesting problems and actual disasters are blamed 0:33:46.800 --> 0:33:49.440 on climate change, even if you believe climate change is 0:33:49.480 --> 0:33:53.520 the cause, which you know it is, it still feels 0:33:53.520 --> 0:33:57.720 weird because climate change isn't just a simple thing. It's 0:33:57.760 --> 0:34:02.120 such an amorphous shape shifting time traveling idea that for 0:34:02.160 --> 0:34:06.040 the climate denier or climate skeptic, seeing very real physical 0:34:06.040 --> 0:34:10.160 effects be blamed on such an abstract thing is hard. 0:34:10.239 --> 0:34:14.640 For them and their understanding of reality. For many people, 0:34:14.960 --> 0:34:19.440 rejecting hyper objects is a lot easier than thinking about them, 0:34:19.480 --> 0:34:22.560 because once you start thinking about them, finding solutions to 0:34:22.680 --> 0:34:26.719 problems so displaced in time it's not only difficult but 0:34:27.239 --> 0:34:32.200 encourages procrastination. The greenhouse gas emissions up there in the 0:34:32.239 --> 0:34:35.800 air right now won't reach their full effects for decades 0:34:35.840 --> 0:34:40.319 and centuries. That's not downplaying the urgency of the problem. 0:34:40.360 --> 0:34:44.040 In fact, that should make the problem more urgent. The 0:34:44.160 --> 0:34:48.320 cause is our brief luxury, and the effect is terror 0:34:48.320 --> 0:34:52.719 forming the world. And we are right now caught in 0:34:52.840 --> 0:34:59.160 between the uncanny hyper object of all liminal spaces. The 0:34:59.239 --> 0:35:02.080 end of the world has already happened. We are on 0:35:02.200 --> 0:35:05.279 the path and about to enter a new world. We 0:35:05.320 --> 0:35:09.320 are in the liminal space hallway of all liminal space hallways. 0:35:09.960 --> 0:35:12.560 The door behind us is closed, and at the other 0:35:12.719 --> 0:35:15.800 end of the hallway is a black hole. We cannot 0:35:15.800 --> 0:35:19.120 backtrack and re enter the door behind us. Already are 0:35:19.160 --> 0:35:22.520 we getting sucked forward into the hallway. But there are 0:35:22.520 --> 0:35:25.200 many doors ahead of us, and we get to choose 0:35:25.280 --> 0:35:29.000 which one to open. At this point, we have passed 0:35:29.239 --> 0:35:32.520 some of the prettier doors, but don't be tricked into 0:35:32.520 --> 0:35:35.600 thinking that there are none left. We must not focus 0:35:35.640 --> 0:35:38.480 on preserving an old way of life, but instead need 0:35:38.520 --> 0:35:42.400 to carefully carve out our new reality. We need to 0:35:42.440 --> 0:35:49.279 pick our new door. Well, that is my essay. Read 0:35:49.520 --> 0:35:55.160 thing episode amalcamation about hyper objects, liminal spaces, and our 0:35:55.320 --> 0:35:59.480 new reality. I hope you found some of the ideas useful, 0:36:00.120 --> 0:36:05.800 um despite their kind of abstract and anti abstract and nature. 0:36:06.480 --> 0:36:08.279 If you want to learn more about this, I would 0:36:08.280 --> 0:36:13.160 recommend reading Timothy Morton's book hyper Objects Um. It is 0:36:13.520 --> 0:36:16.280 an academic read, but it's not that bad. I would 0:36:16.440 --> 0:36:18.439 I would recommend picking up if you want to learn 0:36:18.440 --> 0:36:21.319 more about these things. I'm sure I'll talk about them 0:36:21.400 --> 0:36:24.919 more in the future. Thank you for listening. Everybody, see 0:36:24.920 --> 0:36:45.360 you on the other side. Hey, yeah, welcome to it 0:36:45.440 --> 0:36:53.160 Could Happen Here podcast. I'm Robert Evans. So is that it? 0:36:54.400 --> 0:37:00.480 I'm fortunate. I'm so sorry. We just apologize really quick. 0:37:00.719 --> 0:37:03.319 That's a lot to take in. No, that was a 0:37:03.320 --> 0:37:05.840 good introduction. That was a good introduction. We got across 0:37:05.840 --> 0:37:09.080 the gist. Who else is here with you? That's a 0:37:09.120 --> 0:37:12.480 great question. Is Garrison here? Yeah? I think they're here. 0:37:13.280 --> 0:37:20.879 Is Chris here is saying Andrew here, I am indeed excellent. Um, 0:37:20.960 --> 0:37:23.040 why don't you take over and do and do my 0:37:23.160 --> 0:37:27.960 job for me? That sounds awesome, actually good idea, fantastic, 0:37:28.000 --> 0:37:31.880 it was happening everybody, I am saying Andrew back to 0:37:32.000 --> 0:37:36.200 guest host yet again. Um, last time we spoke about 0:37:37.239 --> 0:37:42.360 you know, uh soft climate change, Nile and continue at 0:37:42.400 --> 0:37:46.279 the theme of me talking about whatever I want to 0:37:46.280 --> 0:37:50.759 talk about as food contractual obblication. Um. Today I wanted 0:37:50.800 --> 0:37:53.320 to explode a concept that I brought up one of 0:37:53.320 --> 0:38:00.799 my recent videos, UM, self and community actualization. Yeah right, 0:38:00.880 --> 0:38:03.840 So first we needs getting some context, of course. Um. 0:38:03.880 --> 0:38:07.400 I mean when most people hear self actualization, they probably 0:38:07.400 --> 0:38:12.160 think of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right, the famous permit 0:38:12.280 --> 0:38:18.279 that management uh staff tend to use up in their 0:38:18.280 --> 0:38:25.520 offices and such Los Angeles yoga ladies. Uh. The context 0:38:25.520 --> 0:38:29.479 in which I've heard self actualization the most Yeah yeah, 0:38:29.480 --> 0:38:35.000 that whole group kind of you know yeah. Um, but yeah, 0:38:35.160 --> 0:38:39.120 so self actualization massve hierarchy of needs, the old psych 0:38:39.239 --> 0:38:41.680 one on one stuff, you know. I mean, it's traditionally 0:38:41.680 --> 0:38:45.640 represented as a pyramid, but it was never how Maslow 0:38:45.760 --> 0:38:49.359 himself actually depicted it. Um. It was actually something that 0:38:50.520 --> 0:38:56.400 later in two parts of his work, ran with and popularized. UM. 0:38:56.440 --> 0:38:58.480 And so that as a result of that pramid, there 0:38:58.480 --> 0:39:01.960 are a lot of you know, critiques of Master's theory 0:39:02.080 --> 0:39:05.840 that don't quite engage with his theory, would rather engage 0:39:05.880 --> 0:39:11.480 with like interpretations of his theory by other people. But um, 0:39:11.520 --> 0:39:14.040 you know, I think it's still an interesting way to 0:39:14.080 --> 0:39:18.960 depict human needs. And I think it's a good launching 0:39:19.320 --> 0:39:23.359 point to start thinking about and start discussing, you know, 0:39:23.480 --> 0:39:28.360 human needs. Um what you'll think you'll are on the 0:39:28.360 --> 0:39:32.880 pyramid right now, just for posterity's sake, Oh, right up 0:39:32.880 --> 0:39:37.560 on the tippy top. I mean, I'm like I've been. 0:39:37.600 --> 0:39:39.759 I've been. I've been very lucky to do exactly like 0:39:39.800 --> 0:39:42.200 what I want to do for a living most of 0:39:42.239 --> 0:39:45.560 my life. And and now I own goats. So it 0:39:45.600 --> 0:39:50.520 doesn't get anything that including one absolute unit. He's fucking massive. 0:39:51.000 --> 0:40:00.160 He's a chunky buddy. What about Karen. Yes, I really don't, No, 0:40:00.320 --> 0:40:02.880 I don't. I don't spend too much time thinking about 0:40:03.080 --> 0:40:05.680 models like this, especially around kind of my own my 0:40:05.719 --> 0:40:11.799 own goals, um, and like where I see myself. Um, well, 0:40:11.800 --> 0:40:13.600 I don't know. I mean, I'm i'm I'm doing like 0:40:13.680 --> 0:40:19.960 I'm I'm I'm relatively stable with my like actual physical needs. Um, 0:40:20.040 --> 0:40:21.839 so I guess yeah, I'm just trying to figure out 0:40:21.920 --> 0:40:24.960 what I actually want out of life, like a lot 0:40:25.000 --> 0:40:29.080 of younger people do. I guess, right, right, So I 0:40:29.080 --> 0:40:34.160 guess that's more on the m esteem or yes, self 0:40:34.160 --> 0:40:38.680 asunization side of things. Yeah, And it's harder because you 0:40:38.680 --> 0:40:41.200 can say, like, well, within the context of like what 0:40:41.360 --> 0:40:44.600 is possible, I'm I'm I'm aware, I want to be 0:40:44.680 --> 0:40:47.760 and I'm doing stuff that I want to be doing, 0:40:48.280 --> 0:40:51.319 but also everything feels like a disaster around me all 0:40:51.360 --> 0:40:54.920 the time because yeah, the time simon, which makes it 0:40:54.960 --> 0:40:57.640 difficult to be is right. I was about to say, 0:40:57.680 --> 0:41:02.279 is anybody really on the safe he needs category of 0:41:01.960 --> 0:41:06.319 of the pyramid? I mean some people like absolutely, yeah, 0:41:06.520 --> 0:41:10.120 but this group, I mean yeah, like we we we are. 0:41:11.440 --> 0:41:15.240 There's like a weird there's like a weird disassociation between 0:41:16.120 --> 0:41:20.359 what's actually going on and what we know could be 0:41:20.400 --> 0:41:26.919 going on in like the larger sphere. Yeah, yeah, that's 0:41:26.960 --> 0:41:29.719 that's a very good way of thinking about it. Is like, yeah, 0:41:29.840 --> 0:41:33.319 my immediate needs are met, am I very concerned that 0:41:33.560 --> 0:41:36.880 large chunks of the places I love will be unlivable, 0:41:36.960 --> 0:41:40.759 and you know there will be that we're kind of 0:41:40.800 --> 0:41:43.440 staring in the face of a variety of calamities that 0:41:43.440 --> 0:41:47.520 that could uh make everything worse for me and everybody 0:41:47.520 --> 0:41:50.560 I care about, absolutely, but I can't do anything about that, right. 0:41:50.640 --> 0:41:52.360 The other thing I was going to point out is 0:41:52.440 --> 0:41:56.840 that with like with like, the physio needs is that 0:41:56.880 --> 0:42:04.720 includes sleep. Okay, well, this is who you're talking about, 0:42:04.719 --> 0:42:07.200 being the sun shining down on the pyramid and it 0:42:07.280 --> 0:42:10.440 gets up there, you know, the sleep. The sleep scientists 0:42:10.480 --> 0:42:13.560 have had their pockets in big bed for far too long, 0:42:15.560 --> 0:42:21.239 exactly the cozy industrial complex problem. It's fine, I was 0:42:21.280 --> 0:42:23.239 just gonna say something else, So I was gonna say that, um, 0:42:23.840 --> 0:42:26.640 you know, the pyramid, as we are discovering in this 0:42:26.719 --> 0:42:31.920 conversation doesn't really accurately map out you know, needs and 0:42:32.239 --> 0:42:36.480 human psychology really because I mean not just because our 0:42:36.600 --> 0:42:40.279 brains aren't shaped like pyramids, but also because at any 0:42:40.280 --> 0:42:45.759 point in time, we can be struggling multiple um sections 0:42:45.800 --> 0:42:49.560 and parts of the needs. So, for example, we could 0:42:49.600 --> 0:42:53.000 all be breathing air and drinking water and having enough 0:42:53.040 --> 0:42:56.640 food and stuff met right now, um. And you know, 0:42:56.719 --> 0:43:02.280 you might be like really respected and stuff in your field. Um, 0:43:02.400 --> 0:43:04.920 and you might have a certain could let sense of 0:43:04.960 --> 0:43:08.160 self esteem and stuff. But then at the same time, 0:43:09.640 --> 0:43:14.080 you know you're not in a safe place, or you 0:43:14.120 --> 0:43:17.640 may be dealing with like a debilitating health condition, or 0:43:18.160 --> 0:43:20.960 you maybe lack in certain resources that you need to 0:43:21.000 --> 0:43:26.040 like thrive, right so and then or maybe you know 0:43:26.320 --> 0:43:30.520 you have your food, water, shelter, sleep, all that, and 0:43:31.280 --> 0:43:33.600 you know you're secure and you have what you need 0:43:33.640 --> 0:43:36.840 and whatever, but you have no friends. You know, you 0:43:36.880 --> 0:43:42.279 have no intimacy, no family sense a connection with other people. 0:43:42.360 --> 0:43:46.200 So you're kind of like living in this bubble, just 0:43:47.080 --> 0:43:50.240 floating through life, you know. I mean, your bubble is safe, 0:43:50.280 --> 0:43:53.440 it has what you need, but there's not that social aspect. 0:43:56.280 --> 0:44:01.960 And I think what's interesting about this is because as 0:44:02.000 --> 0:44:05.000 we start to talk about matters hierarchy of needs, we 0:44:05.040 --> 0:44:12.000 start to see the structural and societal um impact on 0:44:12.239 --> 0:44:14.799 you know, our psychology and on our needs. Right because 0:44:14.800 --> 0:44:17.240 if you want to talk about our safety needs, for example, 0:44:17.680 --> 0:44:20.240 but let's get to stay to the to the bottom, 0:44:20.280 --> 0:44:23.080 to the basic. If you wanna talk about physiological needs. 0:44:24.239 --> 0:44:28.800 Water is now a package and commodified product. Right, food 0:44:29.200 --> 0:44:31.880 is something that is inaccessible too many, not because we 0:44:31.920 --> 0:44:36.640 don't have enough food, but because the distribution of it 0:44:37.640 --> 0:44:40.239 to meet the needs of all it's not what's prioritized 0:44:40.280 --> 0:44:43.680 on the capitalism right. There are people who are lacking 0:44:43.719 --> 0:44:46.879 in shelter, you know, um, And a lot of people 0:44:46.960 --> 0:44:51.080 are sleep deprived by the systems we're living in. Yeah, 0:44:51.480 --> 0:44:54.920 m hmm. And the same thing with safety, you know. UM, 0:44:55.040 --> 0:45:00.640 we have based literally threatened by climate change, and you know, 0:45:00.719 --> 0:45:04.080 we are atomized from our relationships and stuff because so 0:45:04.160 --> 0:45:07.080 much so many of us have to work so hard, 0:45:07.520 --> 0:45:10.200 you know, every day, five days a week or more, 0:45:11.239 --> 0:45:14.040 eight hours or more, pretty and it really just strips 0:45:14.120 --> 0:45:17.520 us of our social connections and that's our ste meats 0:45:17.520 --> 0:45:20.000 were sort of stripped of that by you know, these 0:45:20.200 --> 0:45:23.960 commercial messages that we get about like you're not this 0:45:24.120 --> 0:45:28.319 unless you have this, and bye bye bye kind of thing. Right. 0:45:28.840 --> 0:45:31.560 And in self actualization isn't even really a thought for 0:45:31.640 --> 0:45:33.759 a lot of people because they're still busy trying to 0:45:33.760 --> 0:45:37.440 reach all those other things um or don't even have 0:45:37.480 --> 0:45:40.520 the time to think about how they can become who 0:45:40.560 --> 0:45:43.560 they are. UM. And we get into that a bit 0:45:43.600 --> 0:45:47.160 more later on in this discussion, but they don't really 0:45:47.200 --> 0:45:48.839 have the time of the sense to think about that 0:45:48.920 --> 0:45:54.399 because they've been so restricted by their circumstances, right, and 0:45:54.480 --> 0:45:58.879 on top of that, restricted by like the messages that 0:45:58.920 --> 0:46:00.799 they would have gotten, you know, whether it be in 0:46:00.800 --> 0:46:03.719 the school system or through ads or whatever the case 0:46:03.719 --> 0:46:07.640 may be. So I think looking at the pyramid, of 0:46:07.680 --> 0:46:10.319 course it's incomplete and the issues with it, but it 0:46:10.400 --> 0:46:13.839 does illuminate some interesting things that you know, we're dealing 0:46:13.880 --> 0:46:17.080 with right now. I mean, yeah, like if it definitely 0:46:17.120 --> 0:46:20.520 it's easier to self actualize and have esteem once your 0:46:20.560 --> 0:46:23.760 needs are met. But I think definitely there's an ability 0:46:23.800 --> 0:46:26.520 to jump around, especially when you know you have like 0:46:26.600 --> 0:46:30.880 a large scale depression and alienation and disassociation. Think it, 0:46:31.200 --> 0:46:33.960 it's a weird sense where you can kind of hop 0:46:34.000 --> 0:46:36.520 around the pyramid quite quite often, even if you have 0:46:36.560 --> 0:46:39.600 certain things met. This doesn't necessarily mean you have something 0:46:39.640 --> 0:46:43.680 you know above or below. Yeah, Like I I I 0:46:44.800 --> 0:46:48.919 when it comes to like actual people that I associate with, 0:46:49.239 --> 0:46:50.880 you know, all of whom are folks who have to, 0:46:51.920 --> 0:46:55.520 like I have to work in order to live. I 0:46:55.560 --> 0:46:59.000 don't think it I've ever heard anyone talk about happiness 0:46:59.040 --> 0:47:01.680 in terms of like self actualization. It's always in terms 0:47:01.680 --> 0:47:04.319 of like when I get my student loans paid off, 0:47:04.360 --> 0:47:06.319 you know, when I get my when I'm able to 0:47:06.320 --> 0:47:08.319 take care of this health problem that i have, Like 0:47:08.360 --> 0:47:11.399 when I have enough money. It's basically everything boils down 0:47:11.400 --> 0:47:13.440 to for most people, when I have enough money to 0:47:13.520 --> 0:47:17.640 not be as suffering as much from the specific thing, 0:47:17.840 --> 0:47:21.840 or to not be scared about not having enough money. Um, 0:47:21.880 --> 0:47:25.360 which is I think more would I get from people 0:47:25.400 --> 0:47:28.759 when they're talking about like aspirational goals than I would 0:47:28.840 --> 0:47:32.040 like to do this thing that that fulfills me as 0:47:32.040 --> 0:47:37.359 a person. Um yeah, yeah, yes. It's like like any 0:47:37.360 --> 0:47:40.680 any kind of actual self actualization becomes this not just 0:47:40.719 --> 0:47:47.360 a luxury, but a luxury that's just unimaginable. Yeah, exactly, exactly. 0:47:47.400 --> 0:47:49.680 Some people can't even imagine. I know people who have 0:47:49.760 --> 0:47:52.880 just basically given up on, like ever being able to 0:47:52.920 --> 0:47:56.319 repay their loans, right Like they've just resigned themselves like 0:47:56.640 --> 0:47:59.560 this is my life now, all the tunity, this is 0:48:00.080 --> 0:48:02.839 this is it, you know, and I can't blame them. 0:48:02.960 --> 0:48:05.960 Who can really blame them? When that is the reality. 0:48:06.239 --> 0:48:08.359 You know, for a lot of people, taking themselves out 0:48:08.360 --> 0:48:10.839 to debt is not possible even if they did get 0:48:10.880 --> 0:48:12.759 a whole bunch of the money or able to like 0:48:12.880 --> 0:48:14.360 pay off a bit more per month. You know, this 0:48:14.560 --> 0:48:18.520 love interest rates that just like so badly exploitative that 0:48:19.360 --> 0:48:23.879 they're basically suits for the rest of lives. Of course, 0:48:23.960 --> 0:48:27.840 we had to have that brief moment of damn, the 0:48:27.880 --> 0:48:31.200 system sucks, as is typical on it could happen here. 0:48:31.280 --> 0:48:37.040 But I want to shift attention now to another society 0:48:37.200 --> 0:48:45.200 and another culture that has approached this human needs and 0:48:45.280 --> 0:48:51.239 human psychology and human society thing differently. Right, Um, what's 0:48:51.239 --> 0:48:54.080 been coming to a lot more people's attention lateally is 0:48:54.160 --> 0:48:59.040 that Abraham Maslow Um he was actually partially inspired to 0:48:59.120 --> 0:49:02.200 develop his theory by his stay with the Six Seek 0:49:02.200 --> 0:49:05.959 of Blackfoot. And I went into some of the details 0:49:06.040 --> 0:49:09.520 on the video on my channel, um rethinking master was 0:49:09.600 --> 0:49:14.759 hierarchy of needs, psycho bit more in there, but basically, um, 0:49:14.840 --> 0:49:18.800 what he discovers, what I get to in that video 0:49:19.440 --> 0:49:22.560 is that well, firstly, some cultures of us as being 0:49:22.840 --> 0:49:25.920 one self actualized, right, like the six Seek of Blackfoot, 0:49:26.400 --> 0:49:29.480 meaning and that's the Blackfoot just for a little bit 0:49:29.520 --> 0:49:34.719 of context, or an indigenous people, I think confederation is 0:49:34.719 --> 0:49:38.680 how they tend to refer to themselves in like Montana. 0:49:40.120 --> 0:49:47.080 I think Idaho. Um yeah, up in Canada. Yeah, I 0:49:47.360 --> 0:49:51.040 kind of like Idaho, Montana and parts of Canada. Um 0:49:51.080 --> 0:49:55.440 like that's that's Blackfoot territory. They were also Maslow spent 0:49:55.480 --> 0:49:58.000 time with them. L Ron Hubbard lied about having spent 0:49:58.040 --> 0:50:03.000 a lot of time with the Blackfoot. So I didn't 0:50:03.040 --> 0:50:06.000 know that. I don't know. Yes, there's a lot of 0:50:06.160 --> 0:50:09.760 scientology law if you have to catch up on. Yeah, 0:50:10.080 --> 0:50:13.479 but um, yeah, so you know, with Maslow's model, self 0:50:13.520 --> 0:50:17.640 actualization is essentially, you know, self fulfillment, right, the tendency 0:50:17.719 --> 0:50:21.200 for the individual to become more and more what one is, 0:50:21.920 --> 0:50:24.440 and to become everything that one is capable of becoming. 0:50:24.760 --> 0:50:29.239 To us, like fulfilling your potential as a person, as 0:50:29.280 --> 0:50:33.880 a partner, as a parent, as a talent, as a artist, 0:50:33.920 --> 0:50:38.160 as a whatever. Just fulfilling your potential as a person. Right. 0:50:38.600 --> 0:50:42.000 But to say that we are born self actualized, um 0:50:42.080 --> 0:50:45.880 that freeming will looks too, seeing us each as born 0:50:45.880 --> 0:50:48.040 in the world with a spark of divinity, because of 0:50:48.040 --> 0:50:52.120 course this is tied into their spirituality. Um, born for 0:50:52.120 --> 0:50:56.080 the spark of divinity and with a great purpose embedded 0:50:56.120 --> 0:51:00.440 in us. And what self actualization is Link two in 0:51:00.480 --> 0:51:06.960 these cultures inextricably link to that is is community actualization. Right, So, 0:51:07.040 --> 0:51:11.400 community actualization is a concept that places the actualized individual 0:51:11.920 --> 0:51:15.000 in the context of community. So instead of just upholding 0:51:15.000 --> 0:51:18.680 the individual alone, which Maslow's hierarchy has been critiqued for 0:51:19.000 --> 0:51:23.680 sort of doing, community actualization incorporates the web of relationships 0:51:23.760 --> 0:51:28.080 that supports each of US's individuals. Basically, it recognizes that 0:51:28.840 --> 0:51:34.120 we cannot be self actualized solely as individuals if there's 0:51:34.200 --> 0:51:37.440 not like a broader network over a web that is 0:51:37.560 --> 0:51:43.879 supporting us. You know, we're not islands standing alone, you know. Yeah, yeah, 0:51:44.000 --> 0:51:45.960 we were. We were. We were touching on on on 0:51:46.080 --> 0:51:50.600 that point a bit, a bit previous, but less eloquently. Um, yeah, 0:51:50.600 --> 0:51:53.160 it is, it is. It's it's much easier to have 0:51:53.800 --> 0:51:58.960 the ability to actualize your goals into into actions when 0:51:59.000 --> 0:52:01.279 you are less a needed and you have and you 0:52:01.320 --> 0:52:05.760 have all these other things around around a community. Yeah exactly. 0:52:05.920 --> 0:52:09.160 Is that. I think like the lack of community self 0:52:09.200 --> 0:52:12.719 actualization is kind of what we were talking about in 0:52:12.800 --> 0:52:16.080 terms of like, yeah, things are things are great for me. 0:52:16.600 --> 0:52:20.200 Inasmuch as things are great you know in the system 0:52:20.239 --> 0:52:23.799 we live in, but I I don't feel that, you know. Yeah, 0:52:23.840 --> 0:52:26.200 you can look outside and you're like everything is actually 0:52:26.200 --> 0:52:28.560 really bad. I'm just kind of in my little bubble 0:52:28.600 --> 0:52:31.280 and I'm trying to expand my bubble to be around, 0:52:31.400 --> 0:52:34.000 you know, and to help more people. But it can 0:52:34.000 --> 0:52:36.480 be overwhelming sometimes. Yeah, I mean it's so needs, so 0:52:36.520 --> 0:52:40.160 much one pooson could do. And that's kind of a 0:52:40.239 --> 0:52:43.920 point of community, right A community supports our basic needs 0:52:44.440 --> 0:52:47.719 and basically equips us to manifest I would poop us. 0:52:48.400 --> 0:52:52.280 So it's a community would be there to for example, 0:52:52.960 --> 0:52:55.440 and we can get into this a bit more design 0:52:55.480 --> 0:53:00.040 a model of education that supports us in expressing a 0:53:00.120 --> 0:53:03.960 unique gifts. Right now, the part of the six philosophy 0:53:04.120 --> 0:53:08.560 involves cultural perpetuity, where there's an important consideration of those 0:53:08.600 --> 0:53:11.880 who came before and those who are coming after seven 0:53:11.880 --> 0:53:14.960 generations forward and seven generations backward, as I had it 0:53:15.080 --> 0:53:19.239 explained to me. So that is something that I think 0:53:20.000 --> 0:53:23.240 it would have been useful when it came to discussions 0:53:23.360 --> 0:53:29.200 of um, you know, climate change, and it's very relevant 0:53:29.239 --> 0:53:33.280 now because we are seeing the older generations basically struggling 0:53:33.320 --> 0:53:37.120 and being like, you know, um well it's jen Z's problem. 0:53:37.200 --> 0:53:38.840 Now you could take care of it. You're in the 0:53:38.880 --> 0:53:43.239 future kids, all right, Well that yeah, when they're basically 0:53:43.680 --> 0:53:46.719 on the download saying fuck them kids, you know. Yeah, 0:53:47.040 --> 0:53:50.240 but can I say that or yes? Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:53:50.239 --> 0:53:52.000 you know you can always say them kids. I say 0:53:52.040 --> 0:53:58.320 that to Garrison all the time. All right, yeah yeah. 0:53:58.400 --> 0:54:02.680 But speaking of kids, UM, I think we could compare 0:54:02.719 --> 0:54:07.879 and contrast basically how childhood is approached in our society 0:54:08.719 --> 0:54:10.960 versus how it would be approached and in society that 0:54:11.160 --> 0:54:17.160 values community actualization. UM. I mean, and I'm just speaking 0:54:17.160 --> 0:54:20.000 from my experience here. Of course, you're free talk about 0:54:20.040 --> 0:54:24.920 your own. UM. I from like primary school and stuff. 0:54:25.800 --> 0:54:30.600 I remember it's constantly feeling like I had to compete 0:54:30.719 --> 0:54:34.360 with my fellow um classmates. I mean, you know, I 0:54:34.480 --> 0:54:38.160 was friendly and stuff with everybody and stuff, but since 0:54:38.200 --> 0:54:41.879 I was like usually at or close to the top 0:54:41.920 --> 0:54:45.200 of my class, I always felt this kind of pressure 0:54:45.280 --> 0:54:49.359 to just beat them out and continue to be the 0:54:49.400 --> 0:54:52.319 best gifted kid ever. You know. So there was a 0:54:52.360 --> 0:54:58.920 sense of like constant competition with others that wasn't really 0:54:58.960 --> 0:55:04.080 balanced out with a kind of um collaborative sorts of 0:55:04.120 --> 0:55:09.840 approach to like basically trading us from like an early 0:55:09.880 --> 0:55:15.160 age too into cooperate and work with people as people 0:55:15.360 --> 0:55:19.120 and as comrades, you know, a little comrade is a 0:55:19.120 --> 0:55:22.640 way way to put it. But yeah, I just remember 0:55:22.680 --> 0:55:24.760 there was a sort of sense of sort of atomization 0:55:25.120 --> 0:55:33.560 that's undercooded that sort of educational approach. I I feel 0:55:33.560 --> 0:55:37.880 like that's pretty yuh universal and a lot of a 0:55:37.880 --> 0:55:42.200 lot of parts of our modern world. We definitely really 0:55:43.160 --> 0:55:48.479 embed that sense of competition into very young kids, whether 0:55:48.600 --> 0:55:51.560 that being in school or like wherever. Because yeah, that 0:55:51.640 --> 0:55:55.160 was that was definitely my experience, even even like in 0:55:55.239 --> 0:55:58.640 private school in Canada a long time ago. And I 0:55:58.680 --> 0:56:02.040 know that's that's the thing Fross, you know, across the 0:56:02.080 --> 0:56:06.160 ocean as well, on on the other side of the pond. Yeah, 0:56:06.400 --> 0:56:13.960 we are back. That doesn't sound like us are we are? 0:56:14.000 --> 0:56:20.960 We really back? Sorry it's ten am um, all right. 0:56:21.120 --> 0:56:26.719 So when we're to look at like childhood and education 0:56:26.800 --> 0:56:32.280 and stuff in society that would value community actualization, Um, 0:56:32.360 --> 0:56:34.839 what sort of things do you guys think we would 0:56:34.840 --> 0:56:38.600 be seeing in that sort of society. What sort of 0:56:38.640 --> 0:56:42.080 approaches do you think would be embedded from an early age. 0:56:43.239 --> 0:56:45.520 I'm trying to put it into words, So kind of 0:56:45.560 --> 0:56:49.000 one of the things I'm I'm currently in a living 0:56:49.040 --> 0:56:53.359 situation right where I have. I'm working with a group 0:56:53.360 --> 0:56:55.640 of people on a chunk of land and so every 0:56:55.640 --> 0:56:59.080 week we do projects on it to make it better, um, 0:56:59.120 --> 0:57:03.480 which is tremendous satisfying. And I think in a in 0:57:03.880 --> 0:57:07.200 a society where that kind of self actualization like you've 0:57:07.239 --> 0:57:09.680 been talking about was more common, kids would feel that 0:57:09.760 --> 0:57:15.280 way about doing things, um that improve their community like that, 0:57:15.280 --> 0:57:17.480 that that that take care of the people around them, 0:57:17.520 --> 0:57:21.360 that make you know, wherever they live a better place 0:57:21.440 --> 0:57:24.160 to live, Like that would be that would be in 0:57:24.200 --> 0:57:26.240 the same way that like I go out each weekend 0:57:26.280 --> 0:57:28.520 thinking that will be a fun thing to do to 0:57:28.640 --> 0:57:31.120 like to improve the place that I'm living. I think 0:57:31.160 --> 0:57:36.440 that would be kind of, um a common feeling like 0:57:36.480 --> 0:57:38.200 that would be a common activity as a kid to 0:57:38.280 --> 0:57:41.120 go engage in projects like that. Yeah. And I mean 0:57:41.160 --> 0:57:44.240 we already see children doing that, right except they do 0:57:44.280 --> 0:57:48.320 it in minecraft. Yes, Yeah, Like the impulse is being 0:57:48.640 --> 0:57:51.240 directed somewhere currently. This isn't a thing you have to 0:57:51.680 --> 0:57:53.840 This isn't a thing you have to like splice into 0:57:53.880 --> 0:57:55.840 kids little brains to make them want to do it. 0:57:55.920 --> 0:57:59.600 Kids love making ship exactly, Like do you give a 0:57:59.680 --> 0:58:03.400 child opportunity and sort of facility that like they a 0:58:03.640 --> 0:58:06.760 very a lot of them. I can't really generalize because 0:58:06.760 --> 0:58:08.520 I know some kids were like, you do what you 0:58:08.600 --> 0:58:10.720 have to do. I want to stay in my corner. 0:58:11.040 --> 0:58:12.680 But there a lot of kids as well who would 0:58:12.720 --> 0:58:15.760 be like very very willing to be helpful. You know, 0:58:16.280 --> 0:58:20.720 they really like they just a door being a helper 0:58:21.280 --> 0:58:24.000 and being someone who can support, whether it be in 0:58:24.000 --> 0:58:27.200 the kitchen, you know, with like a little broom or whatever, sweeping, 0:58:27.280 --> 0:58:29.520 whatever the case may be. So some my kids don't 0:58:29.560 --> 0:58:31.400 want to be part of a community, you know, because 0:58:31.400 --> 0:58:35.800 we are social animals. Um, it's just that right now 0:58:35.800 --> 0:58:41.280 it's directed at like minecraft, severs or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, 0:58:41.280 --> 0:58:43.280 I think one of the things that I would really 0:58:43.320 --> 0:58:45.800 focus on, because this is just kind of in my experience, 0:58:46.360 --> 0:58:50.280 is teaching young kids how to cook, um and then 0:58:50.400 --> 0:58:54.080 having them cook or at least help cook food for 0:58:54.160 --> 0:58:57.120 other people. I think it's a really great kind of 0:58:57.320 --> 0:59:00.400 skill to learn. But also it me it does this 0:59:00.480 --> 0:59:02.360 weird thing to your brain when you do That's like 0:59:02.680 --> 0:59:05.120 you you get very happy when you cook food for 0:59:05.120 --> 0:59:07.720 for other people. And I think it's it's a really 0:59:07.760 --> 0:59:12.280 good kind of emotional impulse to give kids. It's like, hey, 0:59:12.320 --> 0:59:14.800 this is you can make people feel good by doing 0:59:14.880 --> 0:59:18.560 things for them, um And because that makes you feel 0:59:18.560 --> 0:59:20.200 good and it makes them feel good, and then that 0:59:20.320 --> 0:59:24.600 really builds that whole sense of community. So yeah, II 0:59:24.880 --> 0:59:30.080 se yeah, yeah, some kids could be ego man like 0:59:30.120 --> 0:59:33.520 but like both self lessness, but it also teaches you 0:59:33.680 --> 0:59:37.280 to like do stuff for yourself as well. Right, It's 0:59:37.280 --> 0:59:40.880 a good skill to be self also be self sustaining. 0:59:41.200 --> 0:59:43.439 So I think that's that's why I really enjoy teaching 0:59:43.520 --> 0:59:46.040 kids cooking. Um I used to I I used to 0:59:46.040 --> 0:59:48.920 be a culinary instructor because I'm really just passionate about 0:59:49.560 --> 0:59:54.360 that specific thing. Yeah, I mean for me perasonally, Um, 0:59:54.520 --> 0:59:59.000 I develop an aneurism whenever anyone's in the kitchen with me. Yes, 1:00:00.600 --> 1:00:02.840 there's definitely moments where if there's too many people in 1:00:02.880 --> 1:00:06.400 a kitchen, that is frustrating. But if if you do 1:00:06.440 --> 1:00:08.200 it right, you can get You can get a thirteen 1:00:08.280 --> 1:00:12.080 year old cooking you an entire like really really nice 1:00:12.120 --> 1:00:15.320 holiday dinner, um, which is which is what I was 1:00:15.360 --> 1:00:17.240 doing when I was thirteen. I was cooking all of 1:00:17.240 --> 1:00:20.280 the holiday dinners for my entire family. Um, because I 1:00:20.360 --> 1:00:23.520 just I wanted to learn cooking. So it's it's definitely 1:00:23.640 --> 1:00:25.960 possible if you're a parent and you want less time 1:00:26.000 --> 1:00:29.880 in the kitchen. Uh, teacher kid how to cook. Yeah, 1:00:29.920 --> 1:00:32.080 I mean I come from a family of child cooks, right. 1:00:32.280 --> 1:00:35.160 I remember, Um, this one time I think I was 1:00:35.160 --> 1:00:39.040 making like a card cake with my mom. Um. But 1:00:40.160 --> 1:00:43.360 I was used to like licking my fingers when you know, 1:00:43.440 --> 1:00:47.520 you make that cookie cookie do and stuff. But I 1:00:47.600 --> 1:00:51.960 licked my fingers when the when I cracked the egg, 1:00:53.440 --> 1:00:56.160 she was like, stuff, you can't do that, you know. 1:00:56.960 --> 1:00:58.800 So I just remember that was one of the experiences 1:00:58.800 --> 1:01:02.960 in the kitchen already stood out to me. Lessons lessons 1:01:02.960 --> 1:01:08.720 will be learned about, like bacteria, Yeah, you know, it's experience. 1:01:09.360 --> 1:01:12.160 Knives you get, get to learn how to use knives, 1:01:12.160 --> 1:01:14.240 get to learn about heat. You know, there's a lot 1:01:14.600 --> 1:01:16.800 of a lot of good lessons you can learn inside. 1:01:16.840 --> 1:01:21.720 I get firing, safety, chemistry, you know, just stuff all 1:01:21.800 --> 1:01:26.200 mixed in there. You know, even math, even absolutely fractions. 1:01:26.320 --> 1:01:28.600 It's one of the only times I use fractions is 1:01:28.720 --> 1:01:33.040 in cooking and baking. Yeah, I mean, as embarrassing as 1:01:33.080 --> 1:01:35.560 it is. I use Google when I want to confute 1:01:35.560 --> 1:01:38.960 measurements still, but I mean it's just there. It's more convenient. 1:01:39.600 --> 1:01:41.880 But yeah, I absolutely agree that example, you know, like 1:01:41.920 --> 1:01:44.680 the use of like cooking lessons and that sort of 1:01:44.680 --> 1:01:52.560 thing too. Support UM to support like kids self actualization. 1:01:53.080 --> 1:01:57.120 I also the community actualization because of my experience, and 1:01:57.480 --> 1:02:00.360 the thing I default too is different versions of like 1:02:00.440 --> 1:02:03.840 the youth liberation argument. But because of how people have 1:02:03.840 --> 1:02:06.240 been using that term on Twitter right now, I don't 1:02:06.240 --> 1:02:08.680 want to talk about it because it's been causing a 1:02:08.720 --> 1:02:11.320 lot of like really dumb fighting about what that term 1:02:11.360 --> 1:02:13.520 actually means and who coined it and like that kind 1:02:13.520 --> 1:02:15.920 of stuff. But that's kind of where I default to 1:02:16.040 --> 1:02:20.160 in terms of like what self actualization could be in 1:02:20.160 --> 1:02:23.360 a community setting. Youth liberation is one of those things 1:02:23.400 --> 1:02:28.800 that I'm really passionate about UM, and I honestly don't 1:02:28.800 --> 1:02:31.640 know who coined it or what discussed AFT and about 1:02:31.720 --> 1:02:35.400 it right now, but it definitely UM informs my approach 1:02:35.520 --> 1:02:38.200 and ends up influence and like a lot of the 1:02:38.280 --> 1:02:41.920 things that I discuss, like when if I talk about 1:02:41.960 --> 1:02:46.080 like an issue or whatever UM in society, A lot 1:02:46.080 --> 1:02:50.160 of times it really boils down or starts from an 1:02:50.160 --> 1:02:54.360 early age. It starts through the education system. Was foster 1:02:54.520 --> 1:02:59.040 there or incubated there. So I think, um, a lot 1:02:59.080 --> 1:03:03.000 more discussions should be happening about, you know, the place 1:03:03.520 --> 1:03:08.800 of young people and the education system and stuff um 1:03:08.840 --> 1:03:13.040 alongside of course, while the other struggles and discussions and discourses, 1:03:13.080 --> 1:03:15.919 which struggles we've been happen. Yeah. I'm trying to view 1:03:16.000 --> 1:03:22.600 like anarchistic like liberatory frameworks is like trying to achieve 1:03:23.400 --> 1:03:26.320 that self actualization and to some degree like the the 1:03:26.440 --> 1:03:28.560 like a steam level, and then also like the community 1:03:28.560 --> 1:03:31.560 and belonging level. Um, even if you don't have all 1:03:31.600 --> 1:03:34.600 of your physical needs met all the time. Is how 1:03:34.720 --> 1:03:38.120 these types of frameworks can be can almost just like 1:03:38.640 --> 1:03:41.720 jump around that and be like, despite me not having 1:03:41.800 --> 1:03:45.800 all of these base needs met, if I if I 1:03:45.880 --> 1:03:49.400 have like a radical model of the world, I can 1:03:49.520 --> 1:03:52.880 still try to achieve that type of freedom because I 1:03:52.880 --> 1:03:56.400 can work outside the box to get it. Um. Yeah, 1:03:56.520 --> 1:03:58.400 And I think that that that's kind of what I 1:03:58.440 --> 1:04:00.840 was I was trying to get at at least on 1:04:01.040 --> 1:04:03.320 you know, like a like a like whether it be 1:04:03.360 --> 1:04:05.600 like a youth lib framework or just like general like 1:04:05.920 --> 1:04:10.040 radical anarchism in general. Yeah, and I mean parts of 1:04:10.080 --> 1:04:14.640 thinking outside the box involves, you know, looking at other 1:04:14.680 --> 1:04:17.280 people who have thought outside of the box, who have 1:04:17.680 --> 1:04:24.040 reinvented and reconsidered and sort of transformed their approach to 1:04:24.120 --> 1:04:30.000 things like education and child care and really all the 1:04:30.040 --> 1:04:32.760 aspects of society that we take for granted as you know, 1:04:32.880 --> 1:04:36.560 just being a certain way. You know, um, when we 1:04:36.560 --> 1:04:40.360 talk about things like education and childhood in the place 1:04:40.400 --> 1:04:44.120 that plays and community actualization, I seem to think a 1:04:44.200 --> 1:04:45.960 lot about, you know, all the things we can do 1:04:46.040 --> 1:04:48.600 to not fit into cap into capitalist smooths. You know, 1:04:48.600 --> 1:04:52.000 it's really facilitate folks potential, not just really cooking classes 1:04:52.000 --> 1:04:56.840 for example, but even through you know, workshops and field trips. 1:04:56.880 --> 1:04:58.640 I mean field trips now are just kind of like 1:04:58.720 --> 1:05:02.240 this thing that you know, kids go to from time 1:05:02.280 --> 1:05:04.240 to time and they have to walk in a single 1:05:04.240 --> 1:05:08.360 fire line and all these different things. But what I 1:05:08.480 --> 1:05:12.320 envision when I think of you know, learning is something 1:05:12.360 --> 1:05:17.560 work into like less restriction to just the four walls 1:05:17.560 --> 1:05:21.920 of a classroom and more the whole world is your classroom. 1:05:22.240 --> 1:05:25.200 You know. The whole world is a place where you know, 1:05:25.360 --> 1:05:27.600 you can explore and you can room and you can 1:05:28.360 --> 1:05:34.960 develop yourself. You know, without all these barriers and controls 1:05:35.360 --> 1:05:41.840 replace on, kids end up suffocating their imagination of what 1:05:42.920 --> 1:05:45.000 things can be. And I mean when you have that 1:05:45.080 --> 1:05:48.480 sort of educational model where you know, the youth are 1:05:48.480 --> 1:05:53.120 able to explore different avenues and direct their own education routes, 1:05:53.720 --> 1:05:56.120 you know, you also end up which is what has 1:05:56.200 --> 1:06:02.080 happened in education models that we've seen throughout many different 1:06:02.080 --> 1:06:06.920 cultures of the world. You see that it facilitates relationships 1:06:06.920 --> 1:06:10.240 with the community members, right, and everybody benefits because you have, 1:06:10.320 --> 1:06:16.640 for example, becasn't exactly something like apprenticeships, and you have 1:06:17.400 --> 1:06:20.280 you know, for example, people getting support from the kids 1:06:20.440 --> 1:06:25.440 in the kitchen or you know, in the workshop or 1:06:26.280 --> 1:06:29.080 in library or whatever the case may be. And not 1:06:29.120 --> 1:06:31.800 only the kids about paying their skills, but they also 1:06:31.880 --> 1:06:36.360 developing relationships with different members of the community with different backgrounds, 1:06:36.360 --> 1:06:41.160 with different experiences. And it released suits almost as I 1:06:41.200 --> 1:06:44.840 see it as a way to God against um this 1:06:45.000 --> 1:06:48.520 sort of style of parenting where that we just kind 1:06:48.520 --> 1:06:52.800 of seeing popularized lately, where like the child is basically 1:06:52.840 --> 1:06:57.320 the exclusive property of the parents and you can't tell 1:06:57.360 --> 1:07:00.920 anybody how to raise their child and the parent alwaysnews 1:07:00.920 --> 1:07:03.400 best in that kind of approach. I think it's a 1:07:03.440 --> 1:07:06.440 good and to do to that because the child being 1:07:06.520 --> 1:07:11.240 exposed to a lot more of life and of people. Um. 1:07:11.320 --> 1:07:15.600 I think that, to me, um is the sort of 1:07:15.640 --> 1:07:21.160 youth liberation route that I see developing. It requires, of course, 1:07:23.440 --> 1:07:29.400 total transmission, but you know, no proposal really be approach 1:07:29.440 --> 1:07:33.560 and isolation. Yeah, and it's it's easier to achieve when 1:07:33.560 --> 1:07:36.720 you're around other right, It's it's easily once if if 1:07:36.760 --> 1:07:39.080 you are already in a community where these things can 1:07:39.080 --> 1:07:41.960 be fostered, then it's a lot you know, it's a 1:07:41.960 --> 1:07:46.360 lot less of a lofty goal. Yeah, I think that 1:07:46.440 --> 1:07:49.120 there's a kind of interesting I don't know if case 1:07:49.120 --> 1:07:51.560 studies the right word, but there's part of Italy that 1:07:52.960 --> 1:07:57.480 had a really really long running like anarchist education experiment 1:07:57.640 --> 1:07:59.960 and so they're basically able to reform local schools is 1:08:00.040 --> 1:08:04.240 TIMS and and it worked. But you know, and they 1:08:04.320 --> 1:08:06.280 produced a bunch of really good schools, and you know, 1:08:06.360 --> 1:08:09.400 the schools are based on sort of like cooperative learning etcetera, etcetera. 1:08:09.480 --> 1:08:11.200 And you know, I mean the model still exists today, 1:08:11.240 --> 1:08:13.720 but and you know it's like, yeah, they made some 1:08:13.760 --> 1:08:17.040 of the best schools in Europe, but the society around 1:08:17.120 --> 1:08:20.720 them didn't change, and so sort of bizarrely, they ended 1:08:20.800 --> 1:08:25.160 up making these schools that like produced you know, they're 1:08:25.160 --> 1:08:27.240 they're very good schools. They produced extremely good students, but 1:08:27.280 --> 1:08:31.479 then they also like produced an extremely you know, well 1:08:31.600 --> 1:08:36.040 educated and good like capitalist cadre basically. And so I 1:08:36.040 --> 1:08:38.040 think I think there's a sort of you know, if 1:08:38.080 --> 1:08:40.719 if we go back to sort of the community aspect 1:08:40.720 --> 1:08:43.280 of this is like, yeah, there's there's a set to 1:08:43.320 --> 1:08:48.960 which even even if you have you know, you get 1:08:49.000 --> 1:08:51.160 some form of self actualization, you get some form of 1:08:51.240 --> 1:08:54.320 sort of you know, community in cooperative like education for 1:08:54.400 --> 1:08:57.720 children and stuff like that, the whole society has to 1:08:57.760 --> 1:08:59.920 move with it or otherwise you just wind up sort 1:08:59.920 --> 1:09:04.840 of feeding the beast more effectively. Yeah, yeah, I mean 1:09:04.840 --> 1:09:07.080 that is that you you also see that kind of 1:09:07.160 --> 1:09:10.559 problem with like the we work guys, right, the Adam 1:09:10.640 --> 1:09:14.560 Newman and and and uh, the two co founders of 1:09:14.680 --> 1:09:17.599 that came out of an Adams case, a kibbutz in Israel, 1:09:17.640 --> 1:09:20.600 which you know, started with from kind of socialist foundations, 1:09:21.240 --> 1:09:23.080 and the other founder had grown up in like a 1:09:23.120 --> 1:09:26.120 commune in rural or again, uh, and they both wound 1:09:26.200 --> 1:09:29.760 up making like this ultra capitalist real estate company. So yeah, 1:09:29.800 --> 1:09:33.800 if you it's it's you know, there's a lot that's said, 1:09:33.840 --> 1:09:36.080 and there's there's a lot of value and kind of 1:09:36.080 --> 1:09:40.880 like carving out sections of culture for the things you 1:09:40.920 --> 1:09:44.439 believe in to try to, um, get shelter from the storm. 1:09:44.560 --> 1:09:47.920 But yeah, as you were kind of noting, Chris, um, 1:09:47.960 --> 1:09:50.599 it does. It does also just wind up kind of 1:09:51.439 --> 1:09:56.080 reinforcing the dominant social system. Um. If there's not a 1:09:56.200 --> 1:10:00.759 kind of more basic upheaval of the way things work. Yeah, 1:10:01.080 --> 1:10:04.479 if there's no you know, political philosophy and the goodness 1:10:04.479 --> 1:10:08.080 and there's no connection with you know, broader social movements 1:10:08.120 --> 1:10:12.360 and sort of confederation with other projects, you know, it 1:10:12.360 --> 1:10:17.200 could very easily be coopted you know, in isolation. Yeah, 1:10:17.200 --> 1:10:18.840 I guess I guess that's you know, like that That's 1:10:18.880 --> 1:10:21.360 what happened to self actualization as a concept for the 1:10:21.400 --> 1:10:24.920 most part, is that it got taken over by kind 1:10:24.920 --> 1:10:34.120 of weird grifters and yeah, like self care. Yeah, yeah, 1:10:34.479 --> 1:10:37.720 and take these concepts and there's sort of twisted and 1:10:38.040 --> 1:10:43.280 transformed into um, you know, capitalists ends. It's even something 1:10:43.320 --> 1:10:49.679 like um like with there's been some interesting discussions happening 1:10:49.720 --> 1:10:55.800 surrounding like luxury and what luxury means around sitting within 1:10:55.880 --> 1:11:02.800 certain circles on Twitter UM and Kim Kimberly Foster from 1:11:02.880 --> 1:11:07.600 for Harriott excellent YouTube channel UM. She mentioned that to 1:11:07.720 --> 1:11:11.720 her at least is long but really good video. She 1:11:11.760 --> 1:11:14.920 spoke about how lux read to her is basically, UM, 1:11:14.960 --> 1:11:18.920 you know, finding the ability to rest where you need 1:11:18.960 --> 1:11:23.760 to rest and to be able to be supported. UM. 1:11:23.840 --> 1:11:29.840 Whereas luxury now, but luxury as quite popular understanding is 1:11:29.880 --> 1:11:35.080 more so about consumption and consumerism. So even when you 1:11:35.120 --> 1:11:40.479 have something where like and this is specific to um, 1:11:40.520 --> 1:11:42.840 the black experience of course, because for a long time, 1:11:43.400 --> 1:11:47.240 you know, black women have been expected to, like um, 1:11:47.360 --> 1:11:51.439 toil and labor and support not only the communities but 1:11:51.600 --> 1:11:55.280 also engineer as slavery also you know, their white masters 1:11:55.280 --> 1:11:58.519 and that kind of thing. Um. There's there was a 1:11:58.560 --> 1:12:01.920 push for the Black women luxury movement to sort of 1:12:02.360 --> 1:12:07.720 reclaim you know, a space for black women to just 1:12:08.360 --> 1:12:11.040 be able to enjoy themselves and you know, be themselves. 1:12:11.640 --> 1:12:16.240 But that quickly became something it's just like you know, 1:12:16.280 --> 1:12:21.800 just get the bag, um. Just the sort of hyper capitalists, 1:12:21.840 --> 1:12:27.080 hyper consumerist, bougie kind of approach to luxury, where the 1:12:27.080 --> 1:12:30.759 original route to the movement, which was about finding rest, 1:12:31.280 --> 1:12:33.400 was sort of lost. And I mean that's a bit 1:12:33.400 --> 1:12:35.519 of a tangent. So I'll try to connect that back 1:12:35.560 --> 1:12:37.960 to what we're saying. Um, I think when it comes 1:12:38.000 --> 1:12:43.080 to things like rest and the ability to rest, um, 1:12:43.120 --> 1:12:50.280 I think that that can only really be found in community. 1:12:51.439 --> 1:12:55.240 And if there's a lack of commune community support to 1:12:55.640 --> 1:12:57.840 you know, pick up the slack when you need to 1:12:57.880 --> 1:12:59.840 rest and you need to revive yourself and you just 1:13:00.120 --> 1:13:06.600 to recharge. UM. Barring that, of course, reshipple can pay 1:13:06.680 --> 1:13:09.200 for a sort of a full community in a sense 1:13:09.240 --> 1:13:12.280 of having you know, nannies and meads and butlers and 1:13:12.320 --> 1:13:15.840 tutors and all these people to basically support their lifestyles 1:13:15.960 --> 1:13:21.160 and support their freedom. But more people lack that. And 1:13:22.200 --> 1:13:27.960 so I think protostyph actualization as you're mentioning earlier, UM, 1:13:28.120 --> 1:13:33.439 it's ability to rest, and I see that as linked 1:13:33.479 --> 1:13:39.559 with community. Yeah, I think that definitely ties into our 1:13:39.600 --> 1:13:44.400 recent discussions on anti work and how anti work is 1:13:44.439 --> 1:13:47.960 a lot more feasible if you are in a community 1:13:48.040 --> 1:13:50.960 support like network and right and you have people to 1:13:51.120 --> 1:13:55.120 rely on um and definitely like you know, self actualization 1:13:55.160 --> 1:13:59.880 as the ability to like to just rest when you 1:14:00.040 --> 1:14:04.040 want to. It's a very uh, it's a very powerful 1:14:04.560 --> 1:14:07.800 thing and very enticing, and that definitely plays into the 1:14:07.840 --> 1:14:14.200 whole like anti work like idea. I guess yeah. I 1:14:14.200 --> 1:14:17.439 mean to connect the anti work thing to just general 1:14:18.200 --> 1:14:22.000 you know, unonization and striking efforts. Right Like I was 1:14:22.040 --> 1:14:27.360 seeing people calling for a general strike the other day, um, 1:14:27.400 --> 1:14:30.680 as if we haven't learned a lesson, but they were 1:14:30.720 --> 1:14:34.519 calling for that, But what they were not realizing was 1:14:34.560 --> 1:14:38.400 that without these structures in place to support striking efforts, 1:14:39.360 --> 1:14:41.360 it's not gonna be enough. You know, if people cannot 1:14:41.439 --> 1:14:47.600 support themselves and their families, the strike cannot last. You 1:14:47.600 --> 1:14:50.840 don't surely with this community and the community coming together 1:14:50.920 --> 1:14:54.439 to support people and they you know, not just fight 1:14:54.479 --> 1:14:58.479 for the rights in the striking and unization context, but 1:14:58.560 --> 1:15:02.360 also you know, to be able to find leisure, to 1:15:02.400 --> 1:15:05.200 find rest, as with the you know, anti work discussion, 1:15:06.160 --> 1:15:09.320 and to sort of turn this to a discussion on 1:15:10.200 --> 1:15:14.560 organizing more generally. Um, you know, we are, at the 1:15:14.640 --> 1:15:21.519 end of the day, a very communal ape and if 1:15:21.520 --> 1:15:25.839 we were to just focus on ourselves as individuals. Um. 1:15:26.000 --> 1:15:31.479 I think as capitalism in its anti social nature expects 1:15:31.560 --> 1:15:35.000 us too, I think we would all suffer as a result. 1:15:35.479 --> 1:15:38.759 You know, our google as people, as any one person 1:15:39.680 --> 1:15:42.400 should be not just to you know, ult ourselves, but 1:15:42.479 --> 1:15:48.000 also to enrich the worlds of those around us and 1:15:48.400 --> 1:15:55.800 to cultivate the community that as we support they you know, 1:15:56.000 --> 1:15:59.720 will support us. And I mean as we prefigure this 1:16:00.000 --> 1:16:06.080 out of you know, culture of support, of you know, 1:16:07.520 --> 1:16:14.320 care and of empathy and that sort of thing. Um, 1:16:14.360 --> 1:16:17.640 I think our organizing efforts would as a results be 1:16:17.680 --> 1:16:21.760 a lot more powerful, be a lot more potent, um, 1:16:21.880 --> 1:16:25.280 be a lot more enriching, and a lot more imaginative. 1:16:28.280 --> 1:16:34.280 So unless any any of you have anything else to see, um, 1:16:34.320 --> 1:16:42.439 to sort of bring this to a close, um, I 1:16:42.520 --> 1:16:45.679 just want to leave, um, leave us with some food 1:16:45.720 --> 1:16:48.799 for thought in terms of how we can incorporate community 1:16:48.800 --> 1:16:52.400 actualization in action, right Because it's one thing to say, 1:16:52.640 --> 1:16:54.880 what will be wonderful to have a community to support 1:16:55.000 --> 1:16:58.360 you in that kind of thing, But you know, um, 1:16:58.560 --> 1:17:03.720 how do people a pretty isolated and stuff right now? Um? 1:17:03.720 --> 1:17:06.640 So I guess I actually put it into sort of 1:17:08.200 --> 1:17:15.720 five stage kind of approach, starting with firstly facilitating collective 1:17:15.720 --> 1:17:20.320 belonging among diverse groups. Right, so we want to look 1:17:20.360 --> 1:17:26.000 at bringing people together. Obviously they would have different backgrounds 1:17:26.120 --> 1:17:34.280 and different needs, different ones, different personalities. But bring people together, um, 1:17:34.400 --> 1:17:38.800 whether it be at work or on the block, or 1:17:40.240 --> 1:17:42.880 at school or whatever the case be, just for a 1:17:42.880 --> 1:17:48.439 cookote or for align or any kind of party or interaction. Obviously, 1:17:49.479 --> 1:17:51.640 depending on where you are that that may not be 1:17:51.720 --> 1:17:56.920 the safest thing to do, um, considering COVID and everything. 1:17:57.360 --> 1:18:02.640 But just bring people together. Not even necessary to proselytize 1:18:02.800 --> 1:18:06.760 them about anarchism or socialism or whatever. But at the 1:18:06.840 --> 1:18:12.680 very least start connecting the nodes and start connecting the 1:18:12.880 --> 1:18:16.880 different parts that can eventually come together to become something greater, 1:18:17.120 --> 1:18:18.720 you know. I mean, you don't need to wait for 1:18:19.320 --> 1:18:22.600 a calamity. There's onything to happen. But of course we 1:18:22.640 --> 1:18:26.480 have seen as well where natural disasters have broad communities 1:18:26.880 --> 1:18:31.519 together that wouldn't together before. Um. I think, however, it 1:18:31.560 --> 1:18:33.280 would be better to like not wait for that kind 1:18:33.280 --> 1:18:36.160 of thing to happen, and to just you know, bring 1:18:36.160 --> 1:18:40.679 people together from now, start some conversations, get things going right, 1:18:40.720 --> 1:18:44.600 and then from there you want to be facilitating solidarity 1:18:44.960 --> 1:18:48.799 in struggle. Right, So whether it be in the solidarity 1:18:48.840 --> 1:18:51.040 is a bit of a buzz would now or at 1:18:51.120 --> 1:18:56.120 least it become a buzz would. But I think whether 1:18:56.160 --> 1:19:00.719 it be with disaster rely funds or so arity, strikes 1:19:00.760 --> 1:19:04.960 and protests, or you know, with basic mutually support, you know, 1:19:05.000 --> 1:19:11.200 whether it's material or emotional solidarity in struggle, I think 1:19:11.280 --> 1:19:15.400 that is another crucial part in you know, building community 1:19:15.640 --> 1:19:20.559 and incorporating eventually community actualization, because what that does is 1:19:20.600 --> 1:19:24.600 it shows others that I have your back and you know, 1:19:25.360 --> 1:19:27.880 others able to see that you know, they can have 1:19:27.920 --> 1:19:31.920 mine as well. Um, it helps to build that sense 1:19:31.920 --> 1:19:35.479 of trust you also want to sort of cultivated probably 1:19:35.520 --> 1:19:37.720 a sense of community pride and a sense of being 1:19:37.760 --> 1:19:40.800 able to rely on community networks. You know, we spoke 1:19:40.840 --> 1:19:46.120 about mutulate networks, but also things like UM skill shares 1:19:46.320 --> 1:19:51.439 or workshops, so um material support. You know, if somebody 1:19:51.600 --> 1:19:54.479 needs food, being able to support for them to know 1:19:55.000 --> 1:19:58.360 that they have people they can go to to support 1:19:58.400 --> 1:20:01.240 them in a time of need, that is powerful. You know, 1:20:01.280 --> 1:20:04.479 not maning people forget that. Not maning people forget the 1:20:04.520 --> 1:20:08.880 time that they were at their most dire point, and 1:20:09.240 --> 1:20:12.479 you know, the community stepped up to support them. You know, 1:20:13.000 --> 1:20:18.640 if you want to see UH insurrection in our lifetimes, Um, 1:20:18.760 --> 1:20:22.479 you don't start guns blazing. You know, you start with 1:20:23.720 --> 1:20:27.120 a creative food, You start with a help in hand, 1:20:28.080 --> 1:20:33.240 You start with money if people need it, um. And 1:20:33.280 --> 1:20:36.400 then from there, you know, you get into the realm 1:20:36.439 --> 1:20:41.840 of community achievements, where your community is collectively able to 1:20:41.840 --> 1:20:45.680 celebrate the things that we have accomplished together. You know, 1:20:45.720 --> 1:20:51.479 whether it be establishing community garden that is able to 1:20:51.479 --> 1:20:56.960 supplement people's um fresh produce supply, or whether it be 1:20:57.040 --> 1:21:01.519 that you know, community has come together and they've fixed 1:21:02.439 --> 1:21:05.800 something that was broken on the street, or even that 1:21:05.840 --> 1:21:09.200 they've come together and we're able to train people with 1:21:09.280 --> 1:21:13.160 like some really helpful skills where they're now able to 1:21:13.479 --> 1:21:17.479 support themselves and bring other things to team as well. 1:21:18.160 --> 1:21:22.480 And then from there, I think that sort of approach 1:21:22.720 --> 1:21:31.519 would foster fulfillment in community and the figures immunity actualization. Yeah, 1:21:31.560 --> 1:21:34.120 I mean, and this is this is all. It's a 1:21:34.120 --> 1:21:37.040 big topic, UM, And it's a much bigger topic than 1:21:37.120 --> 1:21:40.080 just like what are what do you what changes do 1:21:40.120 --> 1:21:42.080 you want to make around the edges? Like what things 1:21:42.080 --> 1:21:45.160 should people advocate for or even just like advocating that 1:21:45.160 --> 1:21:48.439 that the system be torn down, like as as was 1:21:48.520 --> 1:21:51.000 kind of evident when you asked, how could we build 1:21:53.560 --> 1:21:59.000 a community in which like kids feel more self actualization 1:21:59.080 --> 1:22:02.240 from engaging in the community. Um, And there was that 1:22:02.320 --> 1:22:05.559 kind of blank moment, the when you actually talking talk 1:22:05.600 --> 1:22:12.599 about like reconfiguring society at such a fundamental level. Um. 1:22:12.600 --> 1:22:16.519 It's it's a big topic. Um. And it's it's one 1:22:16.560 --> 1:22:19.880 that I think it's important to introduce to people the 1:22:19.960 --> 1:22:23.040 idea that like, hey, we really have to be we 1:22:23.160 --> 1:22:25.360 really got to figure this this out. This is this 1:22:25.439 --> 1:22:29.920 is important to like everything we we say we believe. Um. 1:22:29.960 --> 1:22:33.840 Answering this question is going to be key. Uh and 1:22:34.640 --> 1:22:37.880 it's it's it's a tough one. UM. So I don't know. 1:22:37.920 --> 1:22:42.439 I think sometimes uh people come into episodes we do 1:22:42.520 --> 1:22:44.840 on stuff like this like looking for Okay, well, how 1:22:44.960 --> 1:22:47.559 how are you what's your suggestion for how to do that? 1:22:48.280 --> 1:22:52.479 And at the moment, like I agree with the how 1:22:52.520 --> 1:22:58.080 imperative this is? Um, But in terms of actionable stuff, it's, um, 1:22:58.200 --> 1:23:01.719 this is a big open ended question in my head. 1:23:05.400 --> 1:23:07.200 I mean, I think I think Andrew laid out a 1:23:07.240 --> 1:23:09.760 lot of the stuff that we've we've talked about both, 1:23:09.800 --> 1:23:12.600 like you know, with within our kind of own community 1:23:12.640 --> 1:23:15.559 groups in terms of the things in terms of like 1:23:15.560 --> 1:23:17.600 like you know, like connecting nodes and all like the 1:23:17.800 --> 1:23:21.160 steps that we can do to have there be like 1:23:21.520 --> 1:23:25.040 more like more connecting branches of the tree and how 1:23:25.080 --> 1:23:28.320 to strengthen those. I think that it's it's a good Yeah. 1:23:28.360 --> 1:23:30.559 It's like we can't we don't know what your community 1:23:30.600 --> 1:23:33.320 is like or what your what your situation is. All 1:23:33.360 --> 1:23:36.840 we can really say is here's the broad things that 1:23:36.840 --> 1:23:39.400 that you can try or have worked for other people 1:23:39.439 --> 1:23:41.760 in the past, and then based on what your situation is, 1:23:41.800 --> 1:23:50.240 you can apply those plug plugables. Yeah. St Andrew, Yes, 1:23:50.320 --> 1:23:52.759 of course. Um well you can follow me on Twitter 1:23:53.080 --> 1:23:56.719 at a discore scene. True and of course on YouTube 1:23:56.800 --> 1:24:00.680 st Andrew's um my stuff. You know, I have the 1:24:00.840 --> 1:24:05.519 video on rethinking master was Hierarchy of needs, um on 1:24:05.680 --> 1:24:10.960 some other on practice see things as well. Check it out, 1:24:11.520 --> 1:24:17.160 check it out. Um and uh uh stay thinking about stuff. 1:24:18.120 --> 1:24:34.280 It's thinking is good. Yeah, thinking is good. Welcome that 1:24:34.360 --> 1:24:38.479 could happen here a podcast about things falling apart and 1:24:38.640 --> 1:24:40.280 sort of how you can put them back together. This 1:24:40.360 --> 1:24:43.800 is again another mostly things fall apart episode. UM Here 1:24:43.840 --> 1:24:47.719 with Me is Garrison. Hello, Hello, and joining us today 1:24:47.760 --> 1:24:51.599 to talk about well, a pretty wide range of things, 1:24:51.680 --> 1:24:55.400 but about the drug war in Mexico, about primorialitaries, and 1:24:56.400 --> 1:24:58.320 I guess also I guess about the Narco state. Is 1:24:58.320 --> 1:25:00.880 Alex Vinia, who is in a socially fessor of history 1:25:00.920 --> 1:25:04.360 at Arizona'stat University and has written several very very good 1:25:04.439 --> 1:25:06.920 articles that I've read recently. Um, Alex, how are you 1:25:06.960 --> 1:25:10.920 doing doing great? Thank you so much for having me on. Yeah, 1:25:10.960 --> 1:25:14.720 thank you, thank you for joining us. UM. So I 1:25:14.760 --> 1:25:19.040 wanted to start by talking about an article that you 1:25:19.600 --> 1:25:25.839 has come out fairly recently, uh, that is about essentially 1:25:25.880 --> 1:25:31.240 the transition particularly in Guerrero from I guess the sort 1:25:31.280 --> 1:25:37.360 of sixties seventies dirty war in Mexico two, the drug war, 1:25:37.560 --> 1:25:41.360 and I guess I wanted to start from because I 1:25:41.479 --> 1:25:44.160 don't I don't think it's a issue that's particularly well known. UM. 1:25:44.200 --> 1:25:48.760 I want to, I guess, start with sort of an 1:25:48.800 --> 1:25:51.120 overview of how we got into this sort of dirty 1:25:51.120 --> 1:25:53.720 war in Mexico in the sixties, because I think I 1:25:53.760 --> 1:25:55.479 don't know, like I think, if anyone, if people know 1:25:55.880 --> 1:25:58.559 stuff about this, it tends to be the very dramatic 1:25:58.720 --> 1:26:03.800 sort of like massacre in eight but it's it went 1:26:03.800 --> 1:26:05.519 on for longer than that and as a sort of 1:26:05.520 --> 1:26:09.000 deeper history. So can you bring us into that, Yeah, 1:26:09.040 --> 1:26:13.360 for sure. So I'll start off by saying that generally, 1:26:13.520 --> 1:26:16.360 if when most people think about dirty wars and and 1:26:16.360 --> 1:26:19.320 and Cold War Latin America, Mexico is probably the last 1:26:19.320 --> 1:26:21.519 country that they think of having one, right, Like, there's 1:26:21.520 --> 1:26:26.000 a certain exceptionalism that Mexico has enjoyed until relatively recent 1:26:27.040 --> 1:26:32.559 and relatively recently um amongst academics and especially historians right 1:26:32.600 --> 1:26:35.800 where we're in the last ten twenty years, we started 1:26:35.840 --> 1:26:39.000 to uncover Mexico's own version of a dirty war that 1:26:39.080 --> 1:26:45.760 we are more familiar with in other places like Chile, Argentina, Brazil, etcetera. Um, 1:26:45.960 --> 1:26:48.360 Mexico's dirty war though, and if people know a little 1:26:48.360 --> 1:26:50.240 bit about this period, like as you mentioned, right, they 1:26:50.280 --> 1:26:52.880 know about the infamous student massacre that the local in 1:26:52.960 --> 1:26:57.840 October two. But you know, my my research focuses on 1:26:57.840 --> 1:27:00.120 on this the southern state of Guerrero. It's on the 1:27:00.120 --> 1:27:03.840 Pacific coast. It's made famous by the resort city of Akapunco. 1:27:04.439 --> 1:27:07.160 And I wrote a book in two published a book 1:27:07.160 --> 1:27:10.880 in fourteen that really traced the emergence of armed resistance 1:27:10.920 --> 1:27:13.560 in the state of Guerrero during the nineteen sixties and seventies, 1:27:13.960 --> 1:27:16.960 And that was my entrance into this idea of of 1:27:17.000 --> 1:27:21.440 a Mexican dirty war, of the Mexican state practicing systematic 1:27:21.479 --> 1:27:26.200 state terrorism against political dissidents and in my case, armed 1:27:26.240 --> 1:27:30.760 guerilla dissidents who enjoyed the backing of dozens of rural communities, 1:27:31.240 --> 1:27:34.559 um and even urban poor working class neighborhoods in places 1:27:34.560 --> 1:27:38.200 like in the late sixties and in early nineteen seventies. 1:27:38.960 --> 1:27:41.439 That's a very regional story, right. That's another thing that 1:27:41.479 --> 1:27:43.960 kind of distinguishes the Mexican Dirty War from from other 1:27:44.000 --> 1:27:48.560 Latin American cases is that the dirty war was localized 1:27:48.640 --> 1:27:51.960 to a few major cities and then to two very 1:27:51.960 --> 1:27:57.360 specific locales in the countryside, Geretro being the most bloody theater. Um. 1:27:57.760 --> 1:28:01.000 The way that these girla movements emerged, they really began 1:28:01.080 --> 1:28:05.320 as these popular, civic minded social movements in the late fifties, 1:28:05.320 --> 1:28:09.360 early nineteen sixties, and and they protested things like political 1:28:09.360 --> 1:28:13.960 authoritarianism and economic injustice, but they did so essentially within 1:28:14.040 --> 1:28:17.680 the confines of the Mexican Constitution. They followed the law. Um. 1:28:17.720 --> 1:28:21.280 You know, Mexico has the the you know that that 1:28:21.320 --> 1:28:23.559 the characteristic in Latin America of having the first great 1:28:23.600 --> 1:28:27.080 social revolution of the twentieth century. Um, you do have 1:28:27.160 --> 1:28:30.280 a post revolutionary government that emerges from the nineteen nineteeent 1:28:30.320 --> 1:28:33.879 revolution that has to pay list service to the radical traditions, 1:28:33.880 --> 1:28:36.840 to the revolutionary traditions that came out of that that 1:28:36.840 --> 1:28:40.120 that movement, and for that reason, the Mexican Constitution that 1:28:40.320 --> 1:28:42.920 was passed in nineteen seventeen in its time was the 1:28:42.920 --> 1:28:47.559 most radical social democratic even constitution in the Western hemisphere. UM. 1:28:47.680 --> 1:28:50.960 And you know, the peasant communities compassing the communities in 1:28:50.960 --> 1:28:53.680 the state of believed the letter of the law. So 1:28:53.680 --> 1:28:58.080 when they started to protest, you know, an authoritarian state governors, um, 1:28:58.240 --> 1:29:01.760 a police violence, army violence, its economic injustice. In the sixties, 1:29:02.040 --> 1:29:04.559 they followed the rules and they followed the laws, and 1:29:04.600 --> 1:29:07.479 each time that they did so, they experienced pretty horrific 1:29:07.520 --> 1:29:10.439 instances of both state violence exercised by the military and 1:29:10.479 --> 1:29:13.479 the police, but also everyday forms of violence practiced by 1:29:13.520 --> 1:29:15.839 you know, gun slingers who were working for landed elites, 1:29:16.240 --> 1:29:19.519 and that then radicalized some of these social movements into 1:29:19.520 --> 1:29:22.320 two separate guerilla movements that were led by rural communist 1:29:22.320 --> 1:29:28.240 school teachers and not ask and movement in particular the 1:29:28.280 --> 1:29:30.759 Party of the Poor. They ended up creating a guerilla 1:29:30.800 --> 1:29:33.759 force of about the high estimates about three hundred fighters. 1:29:34.080 --> 1:29:37.280 A more realistic estimate is somewhere from one fifty or 1:29:37.320 --> 1:29:40.719 two hundred. But the key is that in Coastal Guerrero 1:29:40.760 --> 1:29:43.640 and then some of the mountains mountain communities of they 1:29:43.800 --> 1:29:46.839 obtain a lot, a pretty substantial amount of popular support, 1:29:47.040 --> 1:29:49.200 which then leads the Mexican government that had been you know, 1:29:49.280 --> 1:29:51.439 ruled by the p r I, and it was ruled 1:29:51.479 --> 1:29:53.160 in Mexico was ruled by the p r I for 1:29:53.160 --> 1:29:55.920 like eight years. Uh. They sent in the military and 1:29:55.960 --> 1:29:59.439 they waged this pretty horrific counter insurgency that that did 1:29:59.439 --> 1:30:03.640 things like disappear people, torture, rape, um. You know, they 1:30:03.720 --> 1:30:07.479 raised entire communities um. And that's generally what's known as 1:30:07.479 --> 1:30:09.960 the Dirty War in Mexico. It's a rural theater. Its 1:30:10.040 --> 1:30:12.000 main rural theater was in a place I get at 1:30:12.000 --> 1:30:14.559 all where you we think there was almost a thousand 1:30:14.640 --> 1:30:19.880 disappearances from nineteen sixty nine up until the early nineteen eighties. Yeah, 1:30:19.880 --> 1:30:21.880 And one of the things that they interested me a 1:30:22.000 --> 1:30:25.519 lot sort of reading through this was that it's sort 1:30:25.560 --> 1:30:28.040 of weird for insurgency, and that you get aspects of 1:30:28.080 --> 1:30:31.439 both kind of the kind of like classical seventies urban 1:30:31.439 --> 1:30:33.920 grilla movement, but it's also it's very much a real 1:30:33.960 --> 1:30:36.000 movement you have, you know, I mean, like one of 1:30:36.040 --> 1:30:38.360 one of the stories you're telling this is about like 1:30:38.520 --> 1:30:40.080 a group of a group of people who did one 1:30:40.080 --> 1:30:43.120 of the you know, like the classic urban seventies thing, 1:30:43.160 --> 1:30:45.000 which is that you know they did they did a 1:30:45.000 --> 1:30:47.680 bank robbery, and then two the people get tortured and 1:30:47.760 --> 1:30:49.360 the rural grillas sort of get hunted down. And I 1:30:49.400 --> 1:30:53.200 was I was wondering about the dynamics of this, because 1:30:53.240 --> 1:30:56.760 it seems like like there's it seems like you have 1:30:56.800 --> 1:30:59.800 these groups that are kind of unusually moving back and 1:31:00.000 --> 1:31:03.479 word between like having bases and cities and having bases 1:31:03.479 --> 1:31:07.160 in these rural areas. Yeah, that's one of so usually 1:31:07.160 --> 1:31:11.000 when when when folks think about these these guerrilla movements 1:31:11.040 --> 1:31:12.880 in Guerrero during the sixties and seventies, they think of 1:31:12.880 --> 1:31:15.720 them primarily as as a as a you know, very 1:31:15.760 --> 1:31:19.240 fairly typical rural guerrilla movements as you just described. But 1:31:19.920 --> 1:31:22.479 these two movements, the one led by lu As the 1:31:22.520 --> 1:31:24.360 Party of the Poor, the other one by Hannaro Baska 1:31:24.400 --> 1:31:30.479 is the a CNRS. From the very onset, they tried 1:31:30.520 --> 1:31:33.840 to connect the rule to the city um, whether it 1:31:33.920 --> 1:31:37.080 was cities in in Guerrero like um the resort city 1:31:37.080 --> 1:31:39.880 of Acapulco, particularly working class neighborhoods on the outside of 1:31:39.880 --> 1:31:43.839 the city, or the state capital in Chilpancingo, which housed 1:31:43.840 --> 1:31:46.320 the state university. Right, so both of these movements made 1:31:46.320 --> 1:31:49.599 pretty substantial inroads into that community and then also into 1:31:49.640 --> 1:31:53.519 Mexico City. So they tried. Their idea was not necessarily 1:31:53.560 --> 1:31:57.240 to start as a strictly as a strictly rural movement, 1:31:57.280 --> 1:32:00.120 but their idea was always to expand because I think 1:32:00.920 --> 1:32:04.040 to the cities, and I think quite rightly they they 1:32:04.280 --> 1:32:06.640 perceived that what the Mexican state was going to do 1:32:06.680 --> 1:32:08.519 to them was trying to corral them in the state 1:32:08.560 --> 1:32:12.520 of Guerrero and prevent them from logistically and politically expanding 1:32:12.840 --> 1:32:15.320 beyond that. And in the end they were that's exactly 1:32:15.360 --> 1:32:18.280 what happened, um, And that's how these movements were ruthlessly crushed. 1:32:18.680 --> 1:32:20.400 That and it took a lot of terror to to 1:32:21.400 --> 1:32:24.160 separate these armed movements from their popular base of support. 1:32:24.560 --> 1:32:25.880 But a lot of this has to do with the 1:32:25.920 --> 1:32:28.840 fact that both Vaskis and Klanas were school teachers and 1:32:28.880 --> 1:32:32.599 they were involved in union movements that were national in scope. Um. 1:32:32.640 --> 1:32:34.200 They were in moved, they were in you know, LUs 1:32:34.840 --> 1:32:36.880 was in the Mexic Communist Party, right, so he had 1:32:36.920 --> 1:32:41.479 extensive urban experiences and networks throughout the country. So their 1:32:41.479 --> 1:32:44.040 perspective was always to connect the rule to the urban, 1:32:44.320 --> 1:32:48.000 particularly because Mexico by the seventies was a rapidly urbanizing country, 1:32:48.080 --> 1:32:50.599 right it was going it becomes for the first time 1:32:50.600 --> 1:32:53.439 and assists well first times his post colonial history. It 1:32:53.439 --> 1:32:58.360 becomes primarily an urban country. So um, So they tried 1:32:58.479 --> 1:33:01.680 these really interesting mix speriments to try to connect the 1:33:01.720 --> 1:33:04.280 two theaters. But as you as you mentioned, right, they 1:33:04.320 --> 1:33:07.600 did that typical nineteen seventies thing of robbing banks and 1:33:07.600 --> 1:33:11.439 their terminology was expropriation, right, um. But that that then 1:33:11.479 --> 1:33:14.320 exposed them to two police actions and and any time 1:33:14.360 --> 1:33:18.080 any of their militants were captured, they were immediately tortured information. 1:33:18.320 --> 1:33:21.160 You know, that they were interrogated horrifically and that and 1:33:21.200 --> 1:33:23.599 from intel was used to to hunt down their their 1:33:23.640 --> 1:33:26.680 their their comrades up in the mountains and ye, and 1:33:26.720 --> 1:33:28.839 I think that that's a good place to move towards 1:33:29.080 --> 1:33:32.040 sort of the other side of this, which is partially 1:33:32.040 --> 1:33:35.240 the Mexican state response. But the part, the part of 1:33:35.280 --> 1:33:37.639 it that was really interesting to me was about how, 1:33:38.840 --> 1:33:40.559 you know, so so part part part, part of what 1:33:40.560 --> 1:33:42.760 these groups are fighting are these sort of very very 1:33:42.800 --> 1:33:48.439 local like to landed elites. And I wonder if you 1:33:48.439 --> 1:33:51.519 could talk a little bit about how these sort of 1:33:51.600 --> 1:33:54.280 local elites merged, are able to merge with and sort 1:33:54.320 --> 1:33:56.320 of like co opt in a lot of ways that 1:33:57.040 --> 1:34:01.160 the military units that are deployed. Yeah, that's one of 1:34:01.200 --> 1:34:04.479 the biggest So let me see how I can answer 1:34:04.560 --> 1:34:07.280 this question, because there's there's so it's what what I 1:34:07.400 --> 1:34:08.760 what I try to do in this article, and it's 1:34:08.840 --> 1:34:11.559 part of my broader ongoing research is to kind of 1:34:11.560 --> 1:34:15.000 connect the violence, the state violence of the Mexican Dirty 1:34:15.000 --> 1:34:17.280 War as it as as it happens and get around 1:34:17.320 --> 1:34:20.880 the seventies with with with something else that's happening simultaneously, 1:34:20.880 --> 1:34:23.760 which is like the so called drug war and the 1:34:23.840 --> 1:34:27.360 exponentially increasing cultivation of drugs in a place like Getto, 1:34:27.400 --> 1:34:30.479 particularly marijuana and then opium poppies that are used to 1:34:30.600 --> 1:34:33.800 produce heroin. UM. So what I try to do in 1:34:33.800 --> 1:34:36.120 the article that that you're referencing is kind of the show. 1:34:36.479 --> 1:34:40.400 There's a longer history and Guerrero of of how power 1:34:40.840 --> 1:34:43.519 is exercise at the local level and how some of 1:34:43.560 --> 1:34:46.160 these local landed elites are able to weather the nineteen 1:34:46.160 --> 1:34:49.240 ten Mexican Revolution, They're able to weather the grain and 1:34:49.320 --> 1:34:54.080 reform efforts that that occurred in nineteen thirties and forties UM. 1:34:54.240 --> 1:34:57.120 And and really these these families. One of the things 1:34:57.160 --> 1:35:00.920 that that captures my attention of Guerrero is that, uh power. 1:35:01.040 --> 1:35:03.080 You can tell who's in power by just by almost 1:35:03.120 --> 1:35:05.960 by looking at their last name, because there's this remarkable 1:35:06.000 --> 1:35:09.080 continuity in the state of who has it managed to 1:35:09.160 --> 1:35:12.360 exercise power at the local level political, social, economic power 1:35:12.880 --> 1:35:16.360 um for decades now for generations, um. And you can 1:35:16.400 --> 1:35:19.720 track how power works by looking at families. And in 1:35:20.120 --> 1:35:21.559 what I do in this article is to look at 1:35:21.560 --> 1:35:23.800 a couple of landed elite families that had managed to 1:35:23.800 --> 1:35:27.439 stay in power for decades um. So there's certain at landed. 1:35:27.840 --> 1:35:31.639 In this article, I focus on one municipality called which 1:35:31.680 --> 1:35:34.559 is in the hot Lands region of Guerrero um During 1:35:35.040 --> 1:35:36.600 you know, probably from about two thousand and eight to 1:35:36.680 --> 1:35:40.879 two thift it was in the top three in Mexico 1:35:40.960 --> 1:35:43.439 for opium and and harom production. So it becomes this 1:35:43.520 --> 1:35:47.320 massive drug producing region. So I go back in time 1:35:47.640 --> 1:35:49.960 and I kind of trace like who was in power 1:35:50.040 --> 1:35:52.840 in this region, who owned land, who owned the resources 1:35:52.840 --> 1:35:56.280 throughout the twentieth century, and how they were responsible for 1:35:56.360 --> 1:36:00.160 essentially creating this little narco fifedom as it currently exists, 1:36:00.479 --> 1:36:03.120 and trying to figure out which families were involved. So 1:36:03.160 --> 1:36:04.600 on the one hand, you have these families that have 1:36:04.640 --> 1:36:06.920 been in power from like the nineteen twenties and thirties 1:36:06.920 --> 1:36:09.400 and are still exercising power. And then when we get 1:36:09.439 --> 1:36:12.040 to the nineteen seventies and you have this this horrific 1:36:12.080 --> 1:36:14.719 dirty war, this counterinsurgency that the state in the military 1:36:14.840 --> 1:36:18.920 waging against communities and Gerreo. That opens up new possibilities 1:36:18.960 --> 1:36:21.719 for new families to come in and to ally themselves 1:36:21.720 --> 1:36:25.639 with locally stationed UH military units and they work together 1:36:25.760 --> 1:36:28.920 to wipe out guerillas and guerilla supporters at the and 1:36:29.080 --> 1:36:30.880 at the same time they start to you know, kind 1:36:30.880 --> 1:36:34.080 of dip their toe into this this world of narcotics production. 1:36:34.360 --> 1:36:36.920 Because really in Mexico in the nineteen seven especially by 1:36:36.920 --> 1:36:39.599 the night mid nineteen seventies, it becomes a number one 1:36:39.680 --> 1:36:43.439 prior of of marijuana and heroin to the United States. Um. 1:36:43.479 --> 1:36:45.599 And this is part of just a broader global history 1:36:45.640 --> 1:36:49.519 of narcotics. Right there's US lad drug interdiction efforts in 1:36:49.520 --> 1:36:54.280 places like Turkey, Afghanistan and in the in Southeast Asia, 1:36:54.640 --> 1:36:58.120 and efforts to suppress the drug drug production there creates 1:36:58.160 --> 1:37:00.000 this you know what, what what people usually refer to 1:37:00.040 --> 1:37:03.240 is a balloon effect. It just displaces the drug production 1:37:03.320 --> 1:37:05.599 somewhere else because the demand in the US is still there. 1:37:06.000 --> 1:37:09.160 And that because and that creates in Mexico the number 1:37:09.200 --> 1:37:11.680 one provider of narcotics by the mid nineties seventies, and 1:37:11.680 --> 1:37:13.839 that then has an impact locally in the place of Guerrero, 1:37:14.120 --> 1:37:17.920 which is again simultaneously experiencing a grill insurgency, a dirty war, 1:37:18.360 --> 1:37:21.720 and then also the ramping up of drug production. One 1:37:21.760 --> 1:37:23.920 of the most interesting parts of this that I didn't 1:37:23.960 --> 1:37:27.639 know about was about how I mean they're like, how 1:37:27.720 --> 1:37:31.200 how explicitly because I've read a lot of well not 1:37:31.240 --> 1:37:34.559 a lot, but I've read about a lot of how, 1:37:35.640 --> 1:37:39.719 particularly after like when when the sort of after sort 1:37:39.760 --> 1:37:41.720 of the various up people of two thousands six in 1:37:41.760 --> 1:37:45.080 Mexico with the Wahaka uprising with the Zapatis is making 1:37:45.160 --> 1:37:48.080 bunch of moves and the CP presidential election, about how 1:37:48.720 --> 1:37:50.400 you get the drug war is to sort of like 1:37:51.200 --> 1:37:53.880 military solution to these leftist movements. But I was interested 1:37:53.920 --> 1:37:57.400 in how, I mean, incredibly explicit they are about this, 1:37:57.479 --> 1:38:01.120 Like the anti gorilla operation are like they don't call 1:38:01.200 --> 1:38:04.559 them antic thriller operations. They talk about like bandits and 1:38:04.600 --> 1:38:06.680 like they they they they were they were explicitly like, 1:38:06.720 --> 1:38:08.559 no, no no, no, this is an anti narco operation even 1:38:08.560 --> 1:38:13.479 though you know they're going and massacurring like essentially peasants 1:38:13.520 --> 1:38:16.479 and occasionally guerrillas, but just a bunch of just random 1:38:17.120 --> 1:38:22.799 like capusinos. Yeah, yeah, there's a there's a great quote 1:38:22.800 --> 1:38:26.519 that I got from for in this article. Um, you 1:38:26.560 --> 1:38:29.280 know this is wonderful researcher in Mexico. Carlos Flordes was 1:38:29.360 --> 1:38:32.320 a really good book on kind of like the failed 1:38:32.320 --> 1:38:34.840 state in Mexico and drugs and military And in that 1:38:34.920 --> 1:38:39.519 steady he managed to interview a military participant in the 1:38:39.520 --> 1:38:42.120 dirty war in the nineteen seventies, and he has this 1:38:42.200 --> 1:38:44.439 great quote that I included in this essay which he says, 1:38:44.760 --> 1:38:48.400 this military guy says basically, look, with the marijuana growers, 1:38:48.520 --> 1:38:51.680 we had no problem, we had no beef. But with 1:38:51.720 --> 1:38:54.439 the guerrillas, we had the fuck them up. And for me, 1:38:54.560 --> 1:38:58.040 like that, that direct quote kind of encapsulates like what 1:38:58.160 --> 1:39:01.000 the drug war in Mexico has been historically and in 1:39:01.000 --> 1:39:03.400 this current form. Like and this is something that I 1:39:03.479 --> 1:39:06.439 learned from people like sociologists and journalists Don Paley, right, 1:39:06.439 --> 1:39:08.200 like the war on drugs, the war on poor people, 1:39:08.920 --> 1:39:12.160 um and and it it becomes in the nineteen seventies, 1:39:12.200 --> 1:39:14.800 it becomes a really useful cover for the type of 1:39:14.800 --> 1:39:17.519 horrific violence that the state is practicing in a place 1:39:17.520 --> 1:39:22.520 like Gero against these popularly supported guerilla insurgencies. So publicly 1:39:22.680 --> 1:39:25.280 and to the international audience and to its own domestic 1:39:25.360 --> 1:39:27.800 national audience, the Mexican state is saying, look, we're not 1:39:27.840 --> 1:39:30.760 waging a dirty war, We're not waging a counter insurgency. 1:39:30.760 --> 1:39:33.839 We're fighting a war against cattle wrestlers, against cattle thieves, 1:39:34.160 --> 1:39:37.679 and against criminals, against drug dealers, um, when in reality 1:39:37.680 --> 1:39:40.080 they're waging a war against poor people who are supporting 1:39:40.080 --> 1:39:44.840 these different guerilla insurgencies led by these rural communist school teachers. UM. 1:39:44.880 --> 1:39:46.880 So that's and that's in the rural theater, right. It's 1:39:47.040 --> 1:39:49.799 it's really interesting when you think about how the Mexican 1:39:49.800 --> 1:39:53.160 state in the seventies will criminalize urban guerrilla movements. You know, 1:39:53.240 --> 1:39:55.679 Mexico had like thirty eight guerilla movements in the nineteen 1:39:55.680 --> 1:39:58.680 sixies and seventies. That's just like people don't really recognize that, right, 1:39:58.720 --> 1:40:02.160 like thirty eight to four different rural and urban guerilla organizations. 1:40:02.479 --> 1:40:05.640 The big urban one that managed to create i don't know, 1:40:05.720 --> 1:40:09.799 ten to twelve different uh focals or folsa of posa 1:40:10.400 --> 1:40:16.200 UM was the leg the communist legue of the September Um. 1:40:16.240 --> 1:40:18.840 They became such a big threat in the urban theater 1:40:19.040 --> 1:40:22.720 that the Mexican president devoted his nineteen seventy four State 1:40:22.760 --> 1:40:25.280 of the Union basically the Mexican version of the State 1:40:25.320 --> 1:40:27.360 of Union. He devoted a pretty good chunk of it 1:40:27.400 --> 1:40:30.479 to these quote unquote terrorists. Right, So for the urban guerrillas, 1:40:30.520 --> 1:40:32.960 he referred to them as terrorists, and then he does 1:40:33.000 --> 1:40:34.800 this thing where he says, you know, most of these 1:40:34.880 --> 1:40:39.240 terrorists are unpatriotic. They and I'm gonna paraphrase some of 1:40:39.240 --> 1:40:45.120 his language, they reveal high indices of homosexuality, of like 1:40:45.200 --> 1:40:47.800 just basically mothering them to the point that they're seen 1:40:47.840 --> 1:40:51.120 as like the most despicable other in Mexico, in Mexican society, 1:40:51.439 --> 1:40:54.760 and that then opens them up to getting wiped out. Um, 1:40:54.800 --> 1:40:58.120 which is fulfills a similar function as calling the rural 1:40:58.120 --> 1:41:01.680 guerillas nothing more than cattle astlers, cattle fees, and narcos. Right. 1:41:02.080 --> 1:41:05.240 So it's all this counterinsurgency like discursive strategy that that 1:41:05.360 --> 1:41:09.400 justifies the elimination of these people. But at bottom, these 1:41:09.439 --> 1:41:11.519 are just wars against the drug wars, a war against 1:41:11.560 --> 1:41:14.080 poor people. And and you see that to this day, 1:41:14.120 --> 1:41:15.800 you see that, you know most one of the things 1:41:15.800 --> 1:41:18.559 that really animates my research about the history of drug 1:41:18.560 --> 1:41:21.439 wars in Mexico is that I really want to push 1:41:21.479 --> 1:41:25.519 back against, you know, journalistic treatments that that will say, look, 1:41:25.560 --> 1:41:27.800 Mexico's war on drugs began in two thousand and six 1:41:28.200 --> 1:41:31.599 when President Felipe own Way, you know, launched the military 1:41:31.640 --> 1:41:35.040 against these different drug trafficking organizations, and you know, historians 1:41:35.240 --> 1:41:37.240 um like like myself will work on this. We're like, wait, no, 1:41:37.360 --> 1:41:40.200 Mexico has had a series of drug wars right that 1:41:40.280 --> 1:41:43.439 the There's a historian Alec Dawson who talks about has 1:41:43.479 --> 1:41:46.280 a really excellent book on Payote, and he talks about 1:41:46.280 --> 1:41:48.519 how the war on drugs begins in like the colonial era, 1:41:48.600 --> 1:41:51.600 right in terms of how the Spanish colonial state criminalized 1:41:52.200 --> 1:41:56.040 uh indigenous consumption of drugs like payote for for their 1:41:56.040 --> 1:41:59.960 own ritualistic cultural practices. Um. The nineteen seventies is another 1:42:00.080 --> 1:42:02.599 or moment where you have a form of a drug 1:42:02.640 --> 1:42:06.160 war that the Mexican state exercises. But from my perspective, 1:42:06.200 --> 1:42:08.720 it's just it's almost like a cover as a way 1:42:08.760 --> 1:42:12.080 to wage war against political dissidents and an armed guerrilla 1:42:12.200 --> 1:42:15.040 challenges to its rule in Mexico. Yeah, and I think 1:42:15.080 --> 1:42:17.559 that's a that's an important of looking at it also 1:42:17.680 --> 1:42:24.000 as just a way to understand why, you know, like 1:42:24.120 --> 1:42:25.640 if you're looking at it from the inspective of like 1:42:25.640 --> 1:42:27.280 a policy makers, like oh, well, we spent all the 1:42:27.280 --> 1:42:28.880 time during the War on drugs, like why are there 1:42:28.880 --> 1:42:31.439 more drugs? And it's like, well, yeah, because I mean, 1:42:31.479 --> 1:42:37.559 the point isn't really about like I mean, I think, okay, 1:42:37.560 --> 1:42:39.280 I want to make a caviat here, which is like 1:42:39.600 --> 1:42:41.560 it's not like there's such a thing as like a 1:42:41.640 --> 1:42:44.000 quote unquote good war on drugs that you could wage 1:42:44.360 --> 1:42:45.920 like there there's no, there isn't a version of this 1:42:46.040 --> 1:42:48.320 that's like, oh no, if if if we actually just 1:42:48.360 --> 1:42:50.479 try to like focusing on stopping these people, it would work. 1:42:50.479 --> 1:42:54.320 But it's like no. But simultaneously, yeah, it's that the 1:42:55.080 --> 1:42:59.880 goal isn't really about like it's not about drugs, that 1:43:00.000 --> 1:43:01.720 just about killing poor people. And I said, yeah, I 1:43:01.720 --> 1:43:03.360 think that that's that's a good way of framing it. 1:43:03.400 --> 1:43:08.679 And I think also it's an interesting way of looking 1:43:09.720 --> 1:43:15.680 at why you start to see these sort of supposedly 1:43:15.680 --> 1:43:20.320 like anti narco units just immediately start doing like getting 1:43:20.360 --> 1:43:25.200 to the trade. Yeah yeah, well I because they're like 1:43:25.520 --> 1:43:28.080 their position to make a ton of money off of it. Yeah, 1:43:28.200 --> 1:43:30.519 like it's yeah, they're not dumb. Yeah yeah. And I 1:43:30.600 --> 1:43:32.439 think I don't know, this is an interesting question about 1:43:32.439 --> 1:43:34.400 like the structure of the state here too, because you know, 1:43:34.439 --> 1:43:36.200 look like in Chicago, this is another like this is 1:43:36.200 --> 1:43:37.680 the thing that happens all the time, is yeah, you 1:43:37.680 --> 1:43:39.640 get these you get these anti drug units that are 1:43:39.640 --> 1:43:41.360 you know, incredibly specialized to get a bunch of money, 1:43:41.360 --> 1:43:43.559 and then they immediately trying to round start and start 1:43:43.680 --> 1:43:45.920 like just do like just enter into the drug trade. 1:43:46.560 --> 1:43:48.800 And so I was one of the other things. Yeah, 1:43:48.800 --> 1:43:53.840 I was just been interested in this just about there's 1:43:53.960 --> 1:43:59.760 there's seems to be these these very these these very 1:43:59.800 --> 1:44:06.680 interesting sort of alliances between paramilitaries, cartels, the police in 1:44:06.720 --> 1:44:10.160 the military that open up and this is this I 1:44:10.200 --> 1:44:13.679 know this is an incredibly broad like it's a question 1:44:13.760 --> 1:44:16.360 you can like, you know, devot academic disciplines too. But 1:44:16.400 --> 1:44:19.519 I was wondering how you look at the states in 1:44:19.600 --> 1:44:23.120 the context in a context like this, because yeah, I 1:44:23.120 --> 1:44:26.200 mean in a context where you know, it's not the 1:44:26.240 --> 1:44:30.720 state doesn't really have monopoly on violence, right, Yeah, No, 1:44:30.840 --> 1:44:33.439 that's a that's a huge question. And there's how you 1:44:33.680 --> 1:44:36.439 I mean, essentially the question is like what is the state? Yeah, 1:44:36.479 --> 1:44:40.880 that question always terrorizes me. And how you answer that 1:44:41.000 --> 1:44:44.960 question then leads has consequences to how we think about 1:44:45.160 --> 1:44:48.280 things like the drug war or you know, violence in 1:44:48.360 --> 1:44:51.479 Mexico or a variety of different things. Right. But so 1:44:51.680 --> 1:44:54.479 what I what I do in this article is uncle you, 1:44:55.640 --> 1:44:57.840 is to just simply look at what the state looks 1:44:57.840 --> 1:45:00.840 like at the local level, right, Um, particularly like it's 1:45:00.840 --> 1:45:03.719 repressive apparatus is and what you see in a place 1:45:03.800 --> 1:45:09.519 like because yeah, you see kind of like it's a 1:45:09.600 --> 1:45:14.360 multi scale er issue, right where you have generations of 1:45:14.680 --> 1:45:17.840 conflicts over land and land tenure and who gets to 1:45:17.880 --> 1:45:21.400 control rural markets, who gets to control access to rural 1:45:21.439 --> 1:45:23.760 markets and rural production. Right, So there's already like a 1:45:23.800 --> 1:45:27.439 built in structure that's exploitative, that has somehow managed to 1:45:27.479 --> 1:45:31.400 weather a big social revolution and a grand reform effort. 1:45:31.880 --> 1:45:34.160 And on top of that, then in the sixties and seventies, 1:45:34.160 --> 1:45:38.760 you get uh, you know, industrialized narcotics production placed on 1:45:38.800 --> 1:45:41.559 top of this pre existing structure. Right, So it's should 1:45:41.560 --> 1:45:44.840 be no, it's almost like no surprise then that you know, 1:45:44.880 --> 1:45:46.640 the gun slingers that you still work for Land of 1:45:46.640 --> 1:45:50.000 Elagues will now serves not just gun slingers for Land 1:45:50.040 --> 1:45:53.000 of elages who are terrorizing campesinos, but now they're also 1:45:53.000 --> 1:45:56.439 gonna work with like local narcotic Uh, you know, narco farmers, 1:45:56.520 --> 1:46:00.719 drug farmers, and and traffickers, and then at the same 1:46:00.720 --> 1:46:03.720 time they're going to do their best to coopt to 1:46:03.840 --> 1:46:06.880 buy off you know, military units that are stationed at 1:46:06.880 --> 1:46:08.880 the local level, police units that are stationed at the 1:46:08.880 --> 1:46:12.920 local level, local judges, local magistrates, local political officials, and 1:46:12.920 --> 1:46:17.080 and it it creates a very um dense network at 1:46:17.120 --> 1:46:20.960 the local level of people who are working together to 1:46:21.080 --> 1:46:25.200 maintain power but at the same time make sure that 1:46:25.240 --> 1:46:29.320 this really profitable political economy of narcotics is going to thrive. 1:46:29.880 --> 1:46:31.800 And this is at the very local level, right, So 1:46:32.520 --> 1:46:35.519 in some in some ways those local interests of the 1:46:35.560 --> 1:46:38.479 quote unquote the state are will conflict with the state 1:46:38.600 --> 1:46:41.760 in Mexico City and how to resolve those tensions and 1:46:41.800 --> 1:46:44.120 becomes a big deal. So the the guy that the 1:46:44.160 --> 1:46:47.439 military participant that I referenced earlier, he was he was 1:46:47.520 --> 1:46:50.760 actually sent in from outside of Gereo into GEO to 1:46:50.880 --> 1:46:54.920 wage counterinsurgency. And you know, he talks in this book 1:46:54.960 --> 1:46:57.240 about how they didn't know what to do when they 1:46:57.320 --> 1:47:02.960 see their soldier comrades, you know, obviously collaborating with local nauticles, 1:47:03.360 --> 1:47:05.680 even though the over this guy in his unit have 1:47:05.760 --> 1:47:07.960 been sent in to wipe out the nuticles so it 1:47:08.040 --> 1:47:11.160 ends up happening. Is that the goal is never to 1:47:11.280 --> 1:47:15.800 eradicate the from a national level, from a state national level, 1:47:15.840 --> 1:47:17.600 the goal is never to eradicate the drug trade in 1:47:17.640 --> 1:47:19.920 Mexico in the sixties, seventies and eighties, the goal is 1:47:19.960 --> 1:47:23.599 to rationalize it. The goal is to control it, and 1:47:23.479 --> 1:47:25.960 and the goal is for the state to be able 1:47:26.000 --> 1:47:29.800 to maintain power over it. And this is leads us 1:47:29.840 --> 1:47:31.680 to what you know, some scholars will refer to as 1:47:31.680 --> 1:47:35.160 a plasta system, right, that that that different narcotic organ 1:47:35.280 --> 1:47:39.240 traffic organizations will control different parts of Mexico, but the 1:47:39.320 --> 1:47:41.640 overall power, you know, they have to kick back to 1:47:42.960 --> 1:47:48.000 is our different state officials. UM. And that there's a 1:47:48.040 --> 1:47:51.120 recent book, really great book by Ben Smith called The 1:47:51.160 --> 1:47:53.360 Dope that just came out, really like the first really 1:47:53.360 --> 1:47:57.040 good English language big history of of the Mexican drug trade. 1:47:57.560 --> 1:48:00.879 And and he essentially he says that like the Mexican 1:48:00.920 --> 1:48:04.160 state is is a racket. It's a racket, and it's 1:48:04.360 --> 1:48:08.680 ensuring that this drug trade exists, and it's centralized and 1:48:08.720 --> 1:48:11.800 it's rationalized in the sixties, seventies and eighties. UM. But 1:48:11.880 --> 1:48:13.920 by the nineties, it starts to lose control as the 1:48:14.000 --> 1:48:17.440 state itself is neoliberalized and becomes smaller and its capacity 1:48:17.520 --> 1:48:23.519 to control these different groups becomes, uh weakened. So so 1:48:23.720 --> 1:48:25.439 that's like the big national level, right, and then we 1:48:25.520 --> 1:48:27.280 think that takes us to the scale of the international 1:48:27.280 --> 1:48:29.360 which is a whole another thing. But at the very 1:48:29.360 --> 1:48:31.439 local level, what does this look like. It looks like 1:48:31.479 --> 1:48:34.000 if you're a drug farmer, right, Because another thing in 1:48:34.000 --> 1:48:37.679 Garretos that these drug farmers are like small scale right there. 1:48:37.720 --> 1:48:39.880 They're small scale. They have a little bit of autonomy, 1:48:39.920 --> 1:48:43.600 but they're small scale. But they're selling their product to 1:48:43.680 --> 1:48:47.080 these traffickers. And these are the traffickers usually that will 1:48:47.120 --> 1:48:50.680 have connections to local landed families, who'll have connections to military, 1:48:50.720 --> 1:48:53.960 to police, to politicians, um. That will ensure that this 1:48:54.040 --> 1:48:56.679 economy will will have will continue to thrive in a 1:48:56.720 --> 1:48:59.240 in a profitable way by the late seventies. Way, and 1:48:59.240 --> 1:49:01.760 this is something else I think that I needed a 1:49:01.760 --> 1:49:04.120 little bit more research on. But you see it happened 1:49:04.120 --> 1:49:06.439 elsewhere in Mexico and especially in the northwest, in a 1:49:06.479 --> 1:49:08.759 place like Sinaloa, which is usually seen as the cradle 1:49:08.800 --> 1:49:10.920 of the Mexican drug trade. But I think in the 1:49:11.000 --> 1:49:14.639 late seventies, both in Sin and the Dirty War, and 1:49:14.640 --> 1:49:16.800 and the and the sending of the military and mass 1:49:16.840 --> 1:49:19.719 in a place like Garreto, it not only takes out 1:49:19.880 --> 1:49:22.120 armed resistance to the Mexican state, but it will also 1:49:22.160 --> 1:49:25.880 take out small scale narco traffickers who don't want to play. 1:49:26.400 --> 1:49:28.400 They don't like the rules that the Mexican state is 1:49:28.400 --> 1:49:31.200 imposing upon them in order to make money and traffic drugs. 1:49:31.800 --> 1:49:35.080 Um So, I've seen a couple of documents where, um, 1:49:35.120 --> 1:49:39.400 you know, secret police, spy agent documents where they say, Okay, yes, 1:49:39.800 --> 1:49:42.800 you know these these campesinos who are accused of being guerillas, Yes, 1:49:42.840 --> 1:49:48.040 we are disappearing them. But apparently some small scale drug 1:49:48.040 --> 1:49:50.800 traffickers are also being disappeared because they're not they don't 1:49:50.840 --> 1:49:52.680 want to go along with the rules being imposed by 1:49:52.680 --> 1:49:54.960 the Mexican military. And that's something that you see in 1:49:55.400 --> 1:49:58.519 in Sinaloa in the late seventies, when something called Operation 1:49:58.560 --> 1:50:01.320 Condor gets launched and you get thousands of troops and 1:50:01.320 --> 1:50:04.200 federal police who go up there, and instead of eradicating 1:50:04.240 --> 1:50:07.760 the drug trade and getting rid of these different traffickers, 1:50:07.760 --> 1:50:10.720 what they do is they centralize it, they rationalize it, um, 1:50:10.760 --> 1:50:13.479 they make it more efficient. I mean that actually it's 1:50:13.479 --> 1:50:17.360 so it's in in a counterintuitive way, it's state violence 1:50:18.000 --> 1:50:20.680 that actually leads to the formation of things that we 1:50:20.720 --> 1:50:23.280 think about as cartels and not the other way around, 1:50:23.360 --> 1:50:27.519 right because the very trade begins within the confines of 1:50:27.560 --> 1:50:30.800 the Mexican State. In part two of this interview, we're 1:50:30.800 --> 1:50:33.439 gonna drill deeper into that question and look at how 1:50:33.479 --> 1:50:35.200 the state's attempt to get in on the drug trade 1:50:35.240 --> 1:50:37.320 created the cartels and how they sort of lost control 1:50:37.360 --> 1:50:39.759 of them, leading to an incredible increase in part military 1:50:39.880 --> 1:50:42.840 violence and death and destruction. And on that happy note 1:50:42.880 --> 1:50:45.559 that this has been it could Happen here Join us 1:50:45.560 --> 1:50:50.080 again tomorrow for that and in the meantime, stay safe 1:50:50.080 --> 1:50:52.839 and don't die. If you want to find us, we're 1:50:52.880 --> 1:50:56.760 at Happen Here pot on Twitter, Instagram. You can also 1:50:56.800 --> 1:50:59.360 find other work that we do at cools on media 1:50:59.400 --> 1:51:02.360 on Twitter if for some reason you can, you want 1:51:02.360 --> 1:51:16.240 to continue venturing out of the house sides A way 1:51:18.920 --> 1:51:20.920 this is It Could Happen Here, a podcast that is 1:51:21.000 --> 1:51:24.800 often in today about state and paramilitary violence. And we're 1:51:24.840 --> 1:51:27.559 back with part two of her interview. With Alexander Vinia 1:51:28.160 --> 1:51:32.280 about the state and paramilitary violence in the cartels in Mexico. 1:51:33.000 --> 1:51:34.760 The immediate thing I was thinking about this was it 1:51:34.800 --> 1:51:38.479 reminds me a lot of uh, some stuff I've read 1:51:38.760 --> 1:51:43.439 a while back about like smuggling people over the border 1:51:43.960 --> 1:51:47.840 and about how the American militarization of that like destroyed 1:51:47.840 --> 1:51:51.400 because it used to like as as the US tries 1:51:51.439 --> 1:51:53.400 to like make the border more and more unsafe, if 1:51:53.439 --> 1:51:54.960 it can, becomes harder and harder, and it means that 1:51:54.960 --> 1:51:57.080 like the people who can actually do it, like you know, 1:51:57.120 --> 1:51:59.519 you need to have access to more resources and more 1:52:00.479 --> 1:52:03.720 like technical capability, and that's sort of like and that 1:52:03.720 --> 1:52:06.040 that also in a lot of ways help the cartels 1:52:06.080 --> 1:52:08.800 because you know it, well, it's like, okay, so who 1:52:08.800 --> 1:52:11.840 actually has a bunch of organizational expertise with smuggling routes 1:52:11.880 --> 1:52:13.960 and a lot of money And it's it's and I 1:52:14.040 --> 1:52:17.800 think that's like it is it's an interesting way of 1:52:17.920 --> 1:52:21.640 looking at what the national application of state power in 1:52:21.680 --> 1:52:25.960 these like it does, which is that like it's it 1:52:26.040 --> 1:52:29.960 seems almost like what's happening is that so when when 1:52:30.000 --> 1:52:32.160 you get these massive exertion to state power, it's not 1:52:32.240 --> 1:52:34.880 that they like flatten, like you know, it's not that 1:52:34.880 --> 1:52:36.479 they just sort of wipe out out resistance. What they 1:52:36.520 --> 1:52:40.400 do is they yeah, it's what you were saying, is 1:52:40.439 --> 1:52:42.360 like they centralize the drug trip. But it also they 1:52:42.400 --> 1:52:44.640 centralize the sort of violent apparatus. And it means that 1:52:45.000 --> 1:52:46.800 like yeah, if if, if you're going to survive that 1:52:46.880 --> 1:52:51.160 you have to be like incredibly efficient and incredibly violent, 1:52:51.160 --> 1:52:55.479 and you have to also sort of start like you 1:52:55.479 --> 1:52:57.760 you have to start playing with it, like playing by 1:52:57.800 --> 1:53:01.040 the rules at the state of exception, which is you know, 1:53:01.120 --> 1:53:04.880 and that's that's like how I guess the violence level 1:53:04.880 --> 1:53:10.160 and the organizational centralization happens. Yeah, I think yeah, No, 1:53:10.360 --> 1:53:12.000 I think you're I think you're right. And I think 1:53:12.120 --> 1:53:16.000 it's also becomes part of the to add I mean, 1:53:16.080 --> 1:53:18.639 so to add you know, fuel to the fire. Even 1:53:18.640 --> 1:53:21.280 more so, it's become a strategy of like the d 1:53:21.320 --> 1:53:24.519 E A and and and counting oar cautics forces in 1:53:24.560 --> 1:53:27.479 Mexico to to do what you just describe, but then 1:53:27.479 --> 1:53:31.160 also to so dissension amongst the different drug trafficking organizations, right, 1:53:31.240 --> 1:53:34.840 so um that then also increases the violence. Right, So 1:53:34.960 --> 1:53:37.160 if you can get you know, it was it was 1:53:37.160 --> 1:53:40.360 pretty well none that the chapel. For instance, the leader 1:53:40.400 --> 1:53:43.000 of the Senetta cartel until well, let's not say leader 1:53:43.040 --> 1:53:45.360 one of the most prominent traffickers of the Senato carteltil 1:53:45.360 --> 1:53:48.200 recently like he was giving up people. He was giving 1:53:48.240 --> 1:53:50.479 information on rivals to the d e A and to 1:53:50.680 --> 1:53:54.800 other other counting arcotics forces. Right. And that's part of 1:53:54.840 --> 1:53:58.439 the strategy. The strategy is to fragment these groups, um. 1:53:58.560 --> 1:54:01.200 And that only concreases the violen and and you see 1:54:01.240 --> 1:54:04.960 that violence at the very localized level. Um. And this 1:54:05.000 --> 1:54:07.640 is what Garretto suffering from right now right for a 1:54:07.640 --> 1:54:12.480 long time, under the control of one single drug trafficking organization, 1:54:12.520 --> 1:54:16.760 slash family from the state of sinaloas right, they used 1:54:16.840 --> 1:54:20.040 they were originally aligned with their actually cousins with the 1:54:20.080 --> 1:54:22.519 Chappa Uzman's family. They had a falling out and they 1:54:22.520 --> 1:54:24.280 made two thousands and they and they went to war. 1:54:24.800 --> 1:54:27.559 And I had disastrous consequences for the people of Guereto 1:54:27.640 --> 1:54:31.679 because it fragmented the drug trafficking organizations and it forced 1:54:31.680 --> 1:54:34.920 different local groups to take sides. Um And And that's 1:54:35.000 --> 1:54:38.120 kind of how I end the article that that you're referencing, right, Um, 1:54:38.160 --> 1:54:40.480 where different local groups start to take sides, and that 1:54:40.520 --> 1:54:44.080 increases the level of violence at the local level and 1:54:44.080 --> 1:54:48.200 in communities suffer greatly. Um. And that's also a consequence 1:54:48.240 --> 1:54:50.440 of like the kingpin strategy, right, like this idea that 1:54:50.480 --> 1:54:53.040 if you take down the perceived leader of a drug 1:54:53.120 --> 1:54:56.440 trafficking organization, that's somehow going to have an impact on 1:54:56.560 --> 1:54:59.480 drug production. You know what actually happens that it fragments 1:54:59.520 --> 1:55:02.040 the organiza ation and it creates more violence at the 1:55:02.080 --> 1:55:04.120 local level. Well, at the same time, it gives a 1:55:04.200 --> 1:55:07.000 chance to like xd agents to go on like you know, 1:55:07.200 --> 1:55:08.960 national media and be like, oh, yes, the capture of 1:55:09.000 --> 1:55:11.520 the chapel is gonna have a great impact the drug trade. No, 1:55:11.640 --> 1:55:14.600 well not like it increases the violence. And I think 1:55:14.600 --> 1:55:16.760 that the thing that that that's very clear from this article. 1:55:16.760 --> 1:55:18.280 And I think it's clear if you you know, if 1:55:18.320 --> 1:55:20.240 you look at the drug trade, is it's like, no, 1:55:20.800 --> 1:55:22.960 it's it's it's it's largely economic stuff. And like one 1:55:23.000 --> 1:55:25.360 of the things you're talking about is is you know 1:55:25.440 --> 1:55:27.360 it is that these peasants who are the people who 1:55:27.360 --> 1:55:29.240 have been able to hold onto the collective land basically 1:55:29.840 --> 1:55:32.480 get forced by the Lamb bankes to like produce sesame 1:55:32.520 --> 1:55:33.920 and it's like they can't make any money off of 1:55:33.960 --> 1:55:38.400 it and don't I don't know how directly, it looked 1:55:38.440 --> 1:55:40.120 to me a lot like like that was directly one 1:55:40.160 --> 1:55:43.680 of the things that starts to lead to the shift 1:55:43.680 --> 1:55:45.120 to the drug trade there, because you have all these 1:55:45.160 --> 1:55:51.520 people locked into this crop that like just can't support them. Yeah. Yeah, 1:55:51.560 --> 1:55:54.600 and it's it's just the bigger story there is is 1:55:54.600 --> 1:55:57.959 really the failure of the post revolutionary Mexican state too 1:55:58.720 --> 1:56:02.960 um to really help for agricultural production at the level 1:56:03.040 --> 1:56:05.880 of of these small holding peasants and and these rural 1:56:05.960 --> 1:56:09.160 communities that are these ahelos who have received land from 1:56:09.160 --> 1:56:12.360 the Mexican state. UM. If anything, most of the state 1:56:12.440 --> 1:56:17.000 subsidies in the state structure, state support for agriculture from 1:56:17.040 --> 1:56:19.960 the forties, you know, up until the eighties, that was 1:56:19.960 --> 1:56:23.400 all directed to big agro businesses that were producing export 1:56:23.440 --> 1:56:26.000 crops in places like Sea A, Right, they're producing winter 1:56:26.040 --> 1:56:28.280 crops for the American market or winter fruit for the 1:56:28.280 --> 1:56:31.480 American market. Right. So in the absence of like meaningful 1:56:31.520 --> 1:56:35.120 state support for small holding agriculture, that small holding agricultural 1:56:35.160 --> 1:56:39.120 sector that is meant to feed Mexico um. You know, 1:56:39.280 --> 1:56:41.280 some of these these farmers in a place like you 1:56:42.000 --> 1:56:44.160 and they'll say, okay, well, we were growing this thing 1:56:44.240 --> 1:56:47.400 that the the Agricultural Bank is telling us to grow, sessame, 1:56:47.480 --> 1:56:49.080 but we're not making a lot of money off of it. 1:56:49.120 --> 1:56:50.760 But on the other hand, by the late sixties, they 1:56:50.760 --> 1:56:53.920 see that marijuana production is is really increasing due to 1:56:53.960 --> 1:56:57.840 American demand. If I can do both things, you know, 1:56:57.840 --> 1:56:59.520 I'm gonna make a lot of money and I'm gonna 1:56:59.520 --> 1:57:02.600 allow my family to make a pretty good living while 1:57:02.680 --> 1:57:05.000 staying in the countryside, while not having to migrate to 1:57:05.080 --> 1:57:08.120 Mexico City, or while not having to migrate to these 1:57:08.160 --> 1:57:11.280 agriculture fields in northern Mexico or even into the United States. 1:57:11.600 --> 1:57:15.360 So because it's like really rational economic response to to 1:57:15.360 --> 1:57:18.240 to a broader macroeconomic situation that has put them in 1:57:18.240 --> 1:57:21.600 that position. The and and you still see this to 1:57:21.640 --> 1:57:25.160 this day, right, these these small farmers, they still own 1:57:25.200 --> 1:57:28.240 their land. They'll grow certain crops on it and it's 1:57:28.240 --> 1:57:31.000 almost serves as a shield for um, you know, the 1:57:31.040 --> 1:57:33.440 opium poppies that they're growing on the same plot of land, 1:57:33.440 --> 1:57:35.680 but in a part that's a little you know, harder 1:57:35.680 --> 1:57:38.680 to access, and it's a little bit more hidden, right, Um, 1:57:38.720 --> 1:57:41.200 but it's it's it's trying to find a way at 1:57:41.280 --> 1:57:44.120 a bottom to make a dignifity, you know, how to 1:57:44.200 --> 1:57:46.280 make a life of dignity for your family when you're 1:57:46.320 --> 1:57:48.520 living in the in the countryside, when you're living in 1:57:48.520 --> 1:57:52.400 a place like and then you see that, you know, 1:57:52.440 --> 1:57:54.840 the Getingos are going crazy over a cap goo gold 1:57:55.240 --> 1:57:58.280 in the late sixties. Um, and you have uh, you 1:57:58.280 --> 1:58:01.080 know North Getingo traffic is coming into get Ready with 1:58:01.160 --> 1:58:04.520 new seeds. Um or you have set lewnce is coming 1:58:04.560 --> 1:58:06.680 into your state saying, you know, grow these here are 1:58:06.680 --> 1:58:10.280 some marijuana sees grow that strain um, you know, and 1:58:10.560 --> 1:58:13.400 they can buy off you know, local politicians and soldiers 1:58:13.400 --> 1:58:15.880 and police. That's that's one of the ways that you 1:58:15.920 --> 1:58:21.600 get the emergence of industrial proportion production of marijuana and 1:58:21.600 --> 1:58:24.440 and opium poppies. And in the sixties and seventies and 1:58:24.480 --> 1:58:27.400 again at the same time that this massive dirty war 1:58:27.480 --> 1:58:30.680 is being waged against two different peasant guerilla movements. Right, 1:58:30.720 --> 1:58:33.960 So it's like a really messy like social matrix that's 1:58:33.960 --> 1:58:36.880 occurring at the same time. I guess one everything I 1:58:36.880 --> 1:58:41.879 wanted to talk about was about how the political parties 1:58:42.200 --> 1:58:46.040 sort of work into this because I guess, like my 1:58:46.280 --> 1:58:49.200 experience with this sort of like the kind of like 1:58:49.320 --> 1:58:52.640 narco state fusions with like twenties and thirties China and there, 1:58:52.680 --> 1:58:56.960 it's like like you're you're I don't know, I mean, 1:58:56.960 --> 1:59:01.600 the Communists have an actual independent political outside of like 1:59:01.600 --> 1:59:03.640 like the Green Gang, but like the k MT, it's 1:59:03.720 --> 1:59:07.920 like like this is basically just a like like this 1:59:08.080 --> 1:59:10.680 like this is this is just like an ARCO organization 1:59:10.760 --> 1:59:14.000 with like a flag planted on it. And I'm wondering 1:59:14.120 --> 1:59:19.280 how like on what end of the scale we're working 1:59:19.320 --> 1:59:21.640 with with the p R and also also like with 1:59:21.640 --> 1:59:24.520 with the other Mexican parties, because it seems like there 1:59:24.520 --> 1:59:27.400 are like parts of like a functional state app like 1:59:27.640 --> 1:59:29.800 a party state appartus or like a party apparatus, and 1:59:29.840 --> 1:59:32.240 then parts of it that are just like this is 1:59:32.280 --> 1:59:36.240 a cartel. Yeah, it's it's that's a huge question. It's 1:59:36.280 --> 1:59:39.840 it's um yes, I've really resistant. No, no, no no, it's 1:59:39.880 --> 1:59:44.600 all good. I've I've stopped understanding this within the framework 1:59:44.600 --> 1:59:46.600 of like an ARCO state, right, because to think about 1:59:46.600 --> 1:59:50.160 an ARCO state, you really have to think about how 1:59:50.200 --> 1:59:53.640 a state was captured by these drug trafficking organizations. And 1:59:53.640 --> 1:59:56.600 and I historically and currently, I don't think that describes 1:59:56.640 --> 1:59:59.320 what's what's happening in Mexico. Um, I think what you 1:59:59.400 --> 2:00:00.960 would and it and it goes back to the question 2:00:00.960 --> 2:00:03.600 of what is the state, right, like the questions like 2:00:05.240 --> 2:00:08.880 I'm gonna be thinking about this decade. Right, but because 2:00:08.920 --> 2:00:11.520 you have, you know you have? It depends on what 2:00:11.680 --> 2:00:13.760 part of the Mexican state you're also referring to. Right. 2:00:13.800 --> 2:00:15.760 So if we're talking about the military, the military has 2:00:15.840 --> 2:00:17.840 all segments of the military. I have always had an 2:00:17.840 --> 2:00:20.920 important role to play in the production and trafficking of 2:00:21.520 --> 2:00:24.840 narcotics from Mexico into the US from the from like 2:00:24.880 --> 2:00:28.600 the nineteen tens, right, the military governor of Baja California, 2:00:28.960 --> 2:00:32.640 this guy by the name of Colonel Estevan Kantu. He 2:00:32.760 --> 2:00:36.960 was helping traffic opium um into the United States during 2:00:36.960 --> 2:00:40.040 the Mexican Revolution. Right, And this has been a constant rum. 2:00:40.440 --> 2:00:42.960 The guys that I talked about in my article, this 2:00:43.040 --> 2:00:46.920 guy Um who ends up he he's a general by 2:00:46.920 --> 2:00:49.240 the time he's he's arrested in two dozen two. But 2:00:49.280 --> 2:00:53.919 this guy, Mario Costa, he was like the main counter insurgent, 2:00:54.040 --> 2:00:57.760 theorist and and and and bright mind of the Mexican 2:00:57.800 --> 2:00:59.839 military that gets sent to get right on the seventies 2:00:59.840 --> 2:01:02.640 to wipe out these different guerrilla movements. But he's after 2:01:02.680 --> 2:01:05.160 they wipe out the gerrilla movements, he stays on. He 2:01:05.280 --> 2:01:07.520 serves as as a kind of like the leader of 2:01:07.560 --> 2:01:09.200 the state police forces. And what do he starts to do. 2:01:09.280 --> 2:01:12.600 He starts to buy up land allegedly that will start 2:01:12.600 --> 2:01:16.000 producing opium poppies and marijuana. And this guy from the 2:01:16.080 --> 2:01:19.120 late seventies up until he's arrested in two thousand, it's 2:01:19.120 --> 2:01:21.440 pretty clear they had he had been collaborating with different 2:01:21.520 --> 2:01:26.320 narco trafficking organizations. He gets arrested by his own military 2:01:26.440 --> 2:01:29.280 UM in two thousand because he it was pretty clear 2:01:29.280 --> 2:01:32.000 that he had been protecting and collaborating with this you 2:01:32.080 --> 2:01:36.920 have a guada's cartel and I'm a lookouenti UM, so 2:01:37.120 --> 2:01:39.760 you know one of these like anti anti guerrilla, anti 2:01:39.800 --> 2:01:43.840 nautical nauticles that will you know, actually get go to 2:01:43.920 --> 2:01:46.880 jail for about six years UM because it was pretty 2:01:46.920 --> 2:01:49.240 apparent that he had been for a long time collaborating 2:01:49.240 --> 2:01:52.400 and protecting the different narco trafficking organizations. Right, So that's 2:01:52.400 --> 2:01:55.560 the military. Then you have like the secret police that 2:01:55.600 --> 2:01:59.160 gets formed in Mexico, the DFS, with the help of 2:01:59.200 --> 2:02:02.880 the FBI. Um, the DFS becomes like this political police 2:02:02.920 --> 2:02:05.000 that the Mexican president can use to tamp down on 2:02:05.000 --> 2:02:09.440 political descent. They're the ones, you know spine surveillance by 2:02:09.440 --> 2:02:12.720 the sixties and seventies, are also torturing, disappearing, and with 2:02:12.840 --> 2:02:14.880 that level of impunity and power, they also get into 2:02:14.920 --> 2:02:17.400 the drug game. By the seventies and eighties. Um, you 2:02:17.440 --> 2:02:20.160 have the Federal Judicial Police. They're the ones who control 2:02:20.320 --> 2:02:22.880 for this during the fifties, sixties, and seventies. Really they're 2:02:22.880 --> 2:02:25.800 the ones who are controlling, um, the kickbacks that they're 2:02:25.800 --> 2:02:28.840 receiving from narco traffickers until the military moves in the 2:02:28.880 --> 2:02:32.280 seventies and takes over for them. Right. So the repressive 2:02:32.280 --> 2:02:34.840 apparatus is within the Mexican state of the twentieth century 2:02:34.840 --> 2:02:37.320 play a really key role, if not the role in 2:02:37.440 --> 2:02:42.600 helping foster create this this political economy of narcotics. Now, 2:02:42.680 --> 2:02:44.560 how do how do we view that in relation to 2:02:45.120 --> 2:02:47.720 the p r I. Right, the party that emerges from 2:02:47.720 --> 2:02:50.880 the Mexican Revolution, the party that will rule Mexico generally 2:02:50.880 --> 2:02:52.720 will say from the late twenties up until the year 2:02:52.720 --> 2:02:55.560 two thousand, well, you have pretty important, you know, political 2:02:55.600 --> 2:02:58.520 officials within the party throughout the twentie century that are 2:02:58.600 --> 2:03:01.640 directly linked to narco trafficers and directly linked to military 2:03:01.640 --> 2:03:04.160 officials who are obviously involved in the game as well. 2:03:04.600 --> 2:03:06.360 But at no level can we say it's a narco 2:03:06.480 --> 2:03:09.520 state because an archos having captured the state. It's actually 2:03:09.520 --> 2:03:12.160 the other way around. It's the Mexican post revolutionary state 2:03:12.480 --> 2:03:15.080 that's trying to get its hands around this thing that's 2:03:15.120 --> 2:03:19.080 growing within its own confines, and and and by and 2:03:19.120 --> 2:03:21.200 they lose control of it. Like by the late eighties 2:03:21.200 --> 2:03:24.600 and nineties, they've effectively lost control of this thing, and 2:03:24.640 --> 2:03:27.560 that's when you see the rise of these um highly 2:03:27.600 --> 2:03:30.680 centralized drug trafficking organizations like this. You have puttest cartel 2:03:31.000 --> 2:03:34.560 that's making a ton of money off the cocaine. So, 2:03:34.760 --> 2:03:37.640 I guess it seems like it's almost like you're dealing 2:03:37.720 --> 2:03:41.000 with from from from the very very local level, where 2:03:41.040 --> 2:03:43.760 you have these sort of landed elites and their gun slingers. 2:03:43.800 --> 2:03:49.560 It's like it's this almost sort of like like miniaturized 2:03:49.640 --> 2:03:51.520 fractal version of the state where's like you're getting these 2:03:51.520 --> 2:03:55.320 like very very small sort of like uh you know, 2:03:55.360 --> 2:03:57.480 like almost like fetal domains and that they sort of 2:03:57.520 --> 2:04:00.600 expand upwards and stand upwards. But yeah, and I guess 2:04:00.640 --> 2:04:03.440 the interesting part to me is is how like the 2:04:03.480 --> 2:04:07.080 paramilitary dynamics of that, and how how the power of 2:04:07.120 --> 2:04:09.080 these sort of land at least into power, Like how 2:04:09.120 --> 2:04:12.480 how it's like like the power like the the use 2:04:12.520 --> 2:04:16.120 of power from the top seems to strengthen them. Where 2:04:16.160 --> 2:04:18.760 you know, if if you're looking at this from like 2:04:18.760 --> 2:04:23.120 like how how this is supposed to work in theory, 2:04:23.200 --> 2:04:25.120 if you're someone who actually is like trying to eliminate 2:04:25.120 --> 2:04:26.800 the drug trade, you think would be the way around that, 2:04:26.840 --> 2:04:29.600 like the application of power would shatter, but it sort 2:04:29.600 --> 2:04:32.480 of doesn't. It causes these like these these build ups, 2:04:32.560 --> 2:04:35.920 these apparatus is and then they fragment and they rebuild again. 2:04:35.920 --> 2:04:41.920 But it's you're not ever actually dealing with these sort 2:04:41.960 --> 2:04:47.440 of like micro state like yeah, yeah, no, I think 2:04:47.480 --> 2:04:52.200 that's exactly right. And if anything, the paramilitarization is also 2:04:52.280 --> 2:04:54.920 like a like a long it's a process, right, So 2:04:55.000 --> 2:04:57.800 like the first if we can use this term, the 2:04:57.880 --> 2:05:01.400 first paramilitaries were used to wipe out a gray and 2:05:01.440 --> 2:05:05.360 reform minded campasinos in the thirties and forties. Um, but 2:05:05.440 --> 2:05:08.480 you don't really have like a paramilitarization of of of 2:05:08.880 --> 2:05:12.600 the drug trade in Mexico to a certain extent, because 2:05:12.640 --> 2:05:14.360 you have the military and the police to do your 2:05:14.400 --> 2:05:17.400 dirty work. Right if you're a nautical UM. That's a 2:05:17.440 --> 2:05:19.400 more recent phenomenon that you start to see in the 2:05:19.480 --> 2:05:21.960 nineties and especially the two thousands, so right that the 2:05:21.960 --> 2:05:25.600 case that everyone points to, are these the elite of 2:05:25.640 --> 2:05:28.320 the elite in the Mexican military, the gopis. These guys 2:05:28.320 --> 2:05:31.640 are like the Navy Seals or the Special Force, you know, 2:05:32.000 --> 2:05:35.000 the Army rangers, the Mexican military. A bunch of these 2:05:35.000 --> 2:05:37.360 guys in the mid to late nineties decide, you know what, 2:05:37.560 --> 2:05:39.800 we don't want to work for the Mexican military. We're 2:05:39.800 --> 2:05:42.640 just gonna We're gonna dessert, and we're gonna go hire 2:05:42.680 --> 2:05:46.000 ourselves out to the Gulf cartel. And they become really 2:05:46.040 --> 2:05:50.080 the first like paramilitary wing of a major drug trafficking organization. 2:05:50.120 --> 2:05:53.320 And these are guys, some of which probably most likely 2:05:53.360 --> 2:05:55.879 were trained at school the America's or received the American 2:05:55.920 --> 2:06:00.760 specialized training now switching sides and and and protecting a 2:06:00.760 --> 2:06:03.600 pretty powerful drug trafficking organization, like at the time in 2:06:03.640 --> 2:06:06.840 the nineties that was the Gulf Cartel. And these are 2:06:06.840 --> 2:06:09.520 the infamous set us, right, these are the zs UM. 2:06:09.560 --> 2:06:11.240 They're called the set us because that was like their 2:06:11.280 --> 2:06:13.320 military code. There was always a Z in front of 2:06:13.320 --> 2:06:16.000 a number UM. So Z one was kind of like 2:06:16.040 --> 2:06:18.560 the leader, the first guy who took twelve or thirteen 2:06:18.600 --> 2:06:21.480 guys with him to desert and they hired themselves out 2:06:21.520 --> 2:06:24.800 to this drug trafficking organization and they become like the 2:06:24.920 --> 2:06:27.520 paramilitary unit. The rest of the group see that and 2:06:27.520 --> 2:06:29.920 they're like, oh, ship, Like we gotta catch up, right, 2:06:29.960 --> 2:06:33.280 because these like and these guys the gop is, you know, 2:06:33.320 --> 2:06:35.920 they have counter insurgency experience. You know, they were the 2:06:35.920 --> 2:06:38.400 ones who were fighting against US and chiapas in the 2:06:38.480 --> 2:06:40.600 early nineties, right, they were the ones that they were 2:06:40.640 --> 2:06:44.080 sending to. Yeah, they were the ones who were fighting 2:06:44.160 --> 2:06:47.200 against the new cycle of guerrillas that emerging get read 2:06:47.280 --> 2:06:50.000 in the mid nineties, the e p R. And then 2:06:50.000 --> 2:06:52.520 when they're used for counting our context operations, they look 2:06:52.560 --> 2:06:54.920 at the situation they say, you know what we're not 2:06:54.920 --> 2:06:56.320 going to fight on the side of the military. We're 2:06:56.320 --> 2:06:58.640 gonna hire ourselves out to these this golf cartel. We're 2:06:58.640 --> 2:07:01.200 gonna make a ton of money. Um. But they have 2:07:01.240 --> 2:07:03.320 a lot of skills, right. So the rest of the 2:07:03.400 --> 2:07:05.320 so the rest of the drug traffic organizations see that, 2:07:05.360 --> 2:07:08.040 and they're like, we gotta play catch up, and and 2:07:08.040 --> 2:07:10.720 and and you see the paramilitarization of this conflict, and 2:07:10.720 --> 2:07:14.000 and in certain parts that's what's driving UM. I think 2:07:14.040 --> 2:07:16.200 has has played a really big role in driving some 2:07:16.280 --> 2:07:18.440 of the bloodshed and violence that we've seen in Mexico, 2:07:18.480 --> 2:07:21.720 particularly since two thousand six. Right, we can speak of 2:07:22.600 --> 2:07:26.440 probably four hundred thousand homicides since two thousand six, at 2:07:26.520 --> 2:07:29.600 least a hundred thousand disappearances. UM. A lot of that 2:07:29.640 --> 2:07:31.480 has to do with, you know, the people who are 2:07:31.520 --> 2:07:35.960 fighting our our paramilitaries, right, they're receiving training from Colombian 2:07:36.000 --> 2:07:40.320 military advisors, They're receiving training from Israeli military officials, they're 2:07:40.320 --> 2:07:45.080 receiving training from UM. Guatemalan special forces. These guys called 2:07:45.120 --> 2:07:48.080 the Kails, who committed some of the worst atrocities during 2:07:48.080 --> 2:07:50.400 the Guatemalan conflict of the of the of the seventies 2:07:50.440 --> 2:07:54.280 and eighties. Um, my families from men which is the 2:07:54.360 --> 2:07:58.280 state north of Guerto And I remember when probably two 2:07:58.320 --> 2:08:01.120 thousand five, six or seven was down there doing research 2:08:01.120 --> 2:08:04.160 and Disney family and they reported on the arrest of 2:08:04.200 --> 2:08:09.360 to Guatemalans and two Colombians in this random of far 2:08:09.440 --> 2:08:11.400 off part of meat truck. And you're like, what were 2:08:11.440 --> 2:08:13.920 these two Colombians and two Guatemalans doing there? While they 2:08:13.920 --> 2:08:17.680 were most likely like special X special forces in those countries, 2:08:17.720 --> 2:08:21.600 militaries who had been hired by local organizations to train 2:08:22.160 --> 2:08:26.240 their their their soldiers, to train their their paramilitaries. Um. 2:08:26.280 --> 2:08:28.680 So that that's I think that has driven a lot 2:08:28.720 --> 2:08:31.120 of the violence, right, And you see it's in terms 2:08:31.160 --> 2:08:34.640 of techniques they use, the weapons and armament, the logics 2:08:34.840 --> 2:08:38.720 of of how to take down their enemies. Yeah. I 2:08:38.720 --> 2:08:43.000 remember I read an article like okay, I've literally lost 2:08:43.040 --> 2:08:45.280 all since the time. I think it was like mid 2:08:45.400 --> 2:08:49.480 last year about a cartelogist basically running a military operation 2:08:49.560 --> 2:08:56.240 just shutting like shutting down a city. Um yeah, that 2:08:56.280 --> 2:08:59.280 was pre pandemic. That was it was pre pandemic. Oh 2:08:59.320 --> 2:09:01.920 my god. Yeah, I remember because I was on the 2:09:02.320 --> 2:09:04.480 day and the day after it happened. I think I 2:09:04.520 --> 2:09:07.520 spent way too much time on Twitter talking to people. Um. 2:09:07.560 --> 2:09:11.360 That was when I think you're referring to when the 2:09:11.440 --> 2:09:15.960 UH detachment from the Mexican military um in the city 2:09:15.960 --> 2:09:18.960 of Koya Khan, which is the capital of Sinaloa. Kulakhan 2:09:19.080 --> 2:09:21.720 is seen as like Sinaloa is the cradle of the 2:09:21.760 --> 2:09:25.840 Mexican drug trade, then like Kodiakan is the capital of it, right, Um, 2:09:25.880 --> 2:09:28.040 I think I think you're referring to when the Mexican 2:09:28.080 --> 2:09:31.800 military detachment tried to arrest one of the chapel right, 2:09:31.840 --> 2:09:34.560 and they actually found him, they localized it, they located him, 2:09:34.560 --> 2:09:37.200 and they tried to arrest him, and like the hills 2:09:37.240 --> 2:09:40.000 just came down on the city of Koyakon, and you 2:09:40.080 --> 2:09:44.440 had hundreds of of nauticles or paramilitaries who came down 2:09:44.560 --> 2:09:48.920 and essentially forced um, forced the military and the state 2:09:48.960 --> 2:09:52.320 to hand over at Chapel's son to them and and 2:09:52.360 --> 2:09:55.720 for and the reason why I was like, uh, you know, 2:09:55.760 --> 2:09:57.600 spent way too much time on social media going after 2:09:57.640 --> 2:09:59.440 people because people said, oh, this is an example of 2:09:59.440 --> 2:10:01.880 a failed state. Oh, look at the new president of 2:10:01.920 --> 2:10:06.160 Mexico and he's lost control of the of the state 2:10:06.280 --> 2:10:10.000 like he's tawtowing too nauticles and it was much more 2:10:10.000 --> 2:10:13.200 complicated than that. And something similar had already happened um 2:10:13.200 --> 2:10:16.520 in the previous administration where these different like particularly in 2:10:16.520 --> 2:10:19.240 the city of of Wadajada, where they even shot down 2:10:19.240 --> 2:10:21.840 a military helicopter or police helicopter and they and they 2:10:22.080 --> 2:10:26.240 essentially um shut down the entire city because one of 2:10:26.280 --> 2:10:29.600 their leaders have been captured. Okay, so what are what 2:10:29.640 --> 2:10:31.320 are the things the things that you you talked about the 2:10:31.400 --> 2:10:34.320 end of the article was about these this environmentalist group 2:10:35.480 --> 2:10:39.200 that gets like they all get arrested while like their 2:10:39.240 --> 2:10:42.080 their lawyer gets killed. After we starts talking about like 2:10:42.160 --> 2:10:45.520 connections between business owners and the party in the archo trades, 2:10:45.760 --> 2:10:49.600 I guess what do you how do you sort of 2:10:49.680 --> 2:10:53.600 like like, how how do you left movement sort of 2:10:53.720 --> 2:10:56.080 navigate this space because you have it seems like you 2:10:56.160 --> 2:11:00.040 have on the one hand, you know, you have of 2:11:00.080 --> 2:11:02.440 these premamilitaries and you also have a state that is 2:11:03.520 --> 2:11:09.000 like incredibly violently hostile to you. And I guess I 2:11:09.040 --> 2:11:12.880 don't know, Like I guess you sort of have the 2:11:13.000 --> 2:11:15.920 Zapatista model of this combination of sort of like arm 2:11:16.040 --> 2:11:18.280 struggle and social pressure. But I guess, like, how how 2:11:18.360 --> 2:11:22.080 how do people navigate this sort of like was it 2:11:22.120 --> 2:11:25.160 seems like like a really disastrous like a place to 2:11:25.200 --> 2:11:29.120 be trying to do leftist politics? And yeah, it's it's 2:11:29.120 --> 2:11:31.880 really difficult, right, And I think that's again going back 2:11:31.920 --> 2:11:34.280 to the thesis that the war on drugs is actually 2:11:34.280 --> 2:11:38.520 war on poor people. It's, um, you know, leftist movements, 2:11:38.560 --> 2:11:41.440 dissident movements in Mexico have to well, for while, I'll 2:11:41.440 --> 2:11:43.960 say this in a place like Garrido, it's these movements 2:11:43.960 --> 2:11:49.840 that have provided I think the the most accurate like 2:11:50.680 --> 2:11:52.480 X ray analysis of what the state is at the 2:11:52.480 --> 2:11:56.280 local level. Right. So, um, this this guerrilla leader that 2:11:56.320 --> 2:11:59.120 I talked about in the article, Commandant Ramo, who who 2:11:59.160 --> 2:12:01.520 was around in the late two thousand seven dozen eight, 2:12:01.600 --> 2:12:04.200 does nine like based on his travels in the mountains 2:12:04.200 --> 2:12:06.160 of Guerrero and kind of like the actions that he 2:12:06.200 --> 2:12:07.960 was engaged in for him, it was very clear that 2:12:08.000 --> 2:12:11.680 the military was collaborating with all a narco trafficking organizations, 2:12:11.720 --> 2:12:15.040 not just the one, not just like the most powerful one. Right. 2:12:15.080 --> 2:12:16.480 So at the national level, there was a lot of 2:12:16.480 --> 2:12:19.280 discourse of well, this dark drug trafficking organization is going 2:12:19.320 --> 2:12:21.720 at it with this one in a place that Garrido, 2:12:21.800 --> 2:12:23.760 this guerrilla leader, looks at the situation, he's like, actually, 2:12:23.800 --> 2:12:26.200 they're all working together. And not only that, but they 2:12:26.200 --> 2:12:28.200 have the police in the military, and what are they doing. 2:12:29.080 --> 2:12:32.360 They are, um, going after poor communities up in the 2:12:32.360 --> 2:12:35.080 mountains who don't want to grow opium poppies or who 2:12:35.080 --> 2:12:39.480 want to organize a different way, an alternative model of 2:12:39.480 --> 2:12:42.960 of of living, of social reproduction. Um. What they'll say is, 2:12:43.680 --> 2:12:46.000 you know, uh, the what the military is doing in 2:12:46.040 --> 2:12:48.880 terms of drug interdiction is they'll only go and and 2:12:48.880 --> 2:12:53.560 and burn some opium poppy fields and not others. And 2:12:53.600 --> 2:12:55.760 that's because the owner of that well popiu poppy feel 2:12:55.800 --> 2:12:59.480 that they burn didn't pay up. Um. So you know, now, 2:12:59.680 --> 2:13:02.520 current movements in Garretro partically indigenous moves and Grello. There's 2:13:02.520 --> 2:13:05.080 a recent report that that an indigenous group just put 2:13:05.080 --> 2:13:09.840 out and they're linked to the Congress CO. The C 2:13:10.040 --> 2:13:14.640 and I came the acronym um where they talk about 2:13:15.520 --> 2:13:19.400 a criminal state existing in in the in the part 2:13:19.440 --> 2:13:23.000 of guerreron As, Montana, which is a heavily indigenous area 2:13:23.080 --> 2:13:24.920 on the border on the eastern part of the state. 2:13:25.480 --> 2:13:27.800 And what they say is what we see here is 2:13:28.120 --> 2:13:34.240 uh an alliance between nauticles UM, political parties, military detachments 2:13:34.280 --> 2:13:38.360 and transnational corporations UM and so and and in Gerello. 2:13:38.400 --> 2:13:41.120 Those transnational corporations are usually have something to do with 2:13:41.160 --> 2:13:46.680 mining and they're usually Canadian UM. So how do you 2:13:46.760 --> 2:13:50.480 navigate that? Like that is like like the correlation of forces, 2:13:50.520 --> 2:13:52.240 if we want to use that kind of terminology. Like 2:13:52.360 --> 2:13:55.920 from a perspective of a group that wants to resist this, 2:13:56.600 --> 2:13:59.360 it's it's it's damn near impossible, right, Like you have 2:13:59.640 --> 2:14:03.000 every thing going against you, and yet Ingerero people are 2:14:03.040 --> 2:14:05.400 still resisting, right. You have the students of at Napa, 2:14:05.720 --> 2:14:09.960 they're still protesting, they're still organizing, even after the disappearance 2:14:09.960 --> 2:14:12.920 of their forty three comrades back in September, and we 2:14:12.960 --> 2:14:15.480 still don't have a clear answer as to what happened. Um, 2:14:15.560 --> 2:14:18.920 you still have you know, you have the model of 2:14:18.920 --> 2:14:21.959 of a Tommy that like that that certain indigenous communities, 2:14:22.000 --> 2:14:24.960 like the community in Chadan and have have practice which 2:14:25.040 --> 2:14:27.840 is essentially they kick out all political parties, they kick 2:14:27.880 --> 2:14:31.080 out all police officers, and they self organized at the 2:14:31.080 --> 2:14:34.360 communal level almost like a community police force, and you 2:14:34.400 --> 2:14:37.240 see that in Guerrero as well. There's all you know, 2:14:37.280 --> 2:14:39.880 there's there's challenges with that. There's a that usually brings 2:14:39.880 --> 2:14:42.080 on a lot of violence. And the people of Chadan 2:14:42.160 --> 2:14:45.600 have really suffered for for trying to go this, for 2:14:45.720 --> 2:14:48.200 trying to protect themselves, right, they've they've suffered a lot 2:14:48.200 --> 2:14:51.560 of casualties. Um. And there you have a uh, this 2:14:51.680 --> 2:14:56.160 combination of like narticles and illegal logging, right and and 2:14:56.200 --> 2:14:57.840 so the community there on the one hand is trying 2:14:57.880 --> 2:15:00.280 to protect their ecology, but they're also trying to offend 2:15:00.320 --> 2:15:03.360 themselves from nauticals who have taken over local political parties 2:15:03.400 --> 2:15:05.240 and they don't want them in their in their town. 2:15:05.720 --> 2:15:08.200 In Guereto, you have community police forces and you've had 2:15:08.240 --> 2:15:12.880 them since the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties, um. But 2:15:14.040 --> 2:15:17.280 that's raised a lot of issues in terms of you know, 2:15:17.320 --> 2:15:20.720 what happens when one community police force gets cooputive or 2:15:21.440 --> 2:15:24.000 co oputive or corrupted by a political party or by 2:15:24.040 --> 2:15:27.280 even a nautical and then that that group is used 2:15:27.320 --> 2:15:30.120 to hit against other community groups who are who are 2:15:30.160 --> 2:15:33.000 still trying to organize for for for a radical alternative. 2:15:33.720 --> 2:15:37.160 So it's it's it's on one level, it's really depressing, right, 2:15:37.200 --> 2:15:41.360 because everything is stacked against groups and communities and organizations 2:15:41.360 --> 2:15:43.080 in a place like Geretta who want a better world, 2:15:43.120 --> 2:15:45.760 who want to create a better world. But in the 2:15:45.760 --> 2:15:50.480 longer scope of Gueretto's history, they still resist. They still resist. 2:15:50.560 --> 2:15:52.600 And to me, that's one of the things that fascinates 2:15:52.640 --> 2:15:55.600 me about this place and about its people, about its communities, 2:15:56.080 --> 2:15:58.280 that the odds have always been stacked against them, and 2:15:58.320 --> 2:16:03.800 nonetheless they still resist, they still try to um against 2:16:03.800 --> 2:16:07.080 overwhelming odds. They still try to carve out a better, 2:16:08.160 --> 2:16:11.680 more just more dignified existence for them and for their communities, 2:16:11.800 --> 2:16:15.320 even at great risk, you know, for their well being, 2:16:15.760 --> 2:16:19.520 and they're willing to risk everything. So they're still there. 2:16:20.160 --> 2:16:23.000 They're still there, even though the forces that they're facing 2:16:23.040 --> 2:16:31.040 are are extremely powerful. Yeah. I think that's a surprisingly 2:16:31.120 --> 2:16:34.440 hopeful note to end on, which is that, Yeah, it's 2:16:34.480 --> 2:16:38.240 even like, you know, places with just incredible concentrations of 2:16:38.320 --> 2:16:41.440 violence and different kinds of power against you, that people, 2:16:42.920 --> 2:16:47.280 people are people continue to fight. Yeah, Yeah, I think 2:16:47.320 --> 2:16:49.280 that's I think that's one of the lessons that we 2:16:49.320 --> 2:16:52.680 definitely get from a place like get Rid all Um 2:16:52.800 --> 2:16:54.520 or a place like Chiapa's right with the with the 2:16:54.600 --> 2:16:57.520 Abatistas who are still there, who have still managed to 2:16:57.520 --> 2:17:00.200 read I mean, they've managed to reproduce themselves generation only, 2:17:00.240 --> 2:17:06.400 which is really difficult for an armed um Uh insurrectionary group. Right, Like, 2:17:06.440 --> 2:17:09.400 they've managed to do that, and and and and to 2:17:09.560 --> 2:17:12.320 carve out at great cost as well. Right, they're currently 2:17:12.440 --> 2:17:15.480 right now suffering. They've been suffering for for more than 2:17:15.480 --> 2:17:17.760 a decade of low intensity warfare that's been waged by 2:17:17.760 --> 2:17:21.280 the military and their paramilitaries. But they're still there with 2:17:21.360 --> 2:17:23.640 their example, right, And I think part of the power 2:17:24.240 --> 2:17:27.800 of them and the people is their example alone is 2:17:27.840 --> 2:17:30.720 threatening to power to the powers that be, and and 2:17:30.760 --> 2:17:33.879 that's why that there's always an effort to exterminate them. 2:17:33.920 --> 2:17:38.200 So just by virtue of surviving and and and defending themselves, Um, 2:17:38.200 --> 2:17:40.520 that's like a small it seems like a small thing. 2:17:40.640 --> 2:17:43.200 But but they're providing an alternative. And I think that's 2:17:43.200 --> 2:17:46.840 where there their example is really important. And I think 2:17:46.879 --> 2:17:48.800 I think there is I think there's a real argument 2:17:48.920 --> 2:17:52.560 that the whole sort of the whole sort of anti globalization, 2:17:52.800 --> 2:17:55.120 like that wave of struggle like is something that was 2:17:55.200 --> 2:17:57.040 kicked off at the Deputistas and like, and not just 2:17:57.080 --> 2:17:59.039 on the sort of like they were the first people 2:17:59.040 --> 2:18:01.360 to go into revolt, but it's I mean explicitly like 2:18:01.400 --> 2:18:05.360 the way they brought you know, like social movements from 2:18:05.360 --> 2:18:07.280 across the world together and the way they you know, 2:18:07.320 --> 2:18:09.880 the way that they like had they got, the way 2:18:09.879 --> 2:18:11.480 they got people talking, the way they have people training 2:18:11.480 --> 2:18:13.200 each other, the techniques and the sort of ideas that 2:18:13.200 --> 2:18:16.160 they were exchanging that they like, like they they set 2:18:16.200 --> 2:18:19.600 off like a wave of revolt that lasted for like 2:18:20.840 --> 2:18:23.480 I don't know if you started in like nine, like 2:18:23.520 --> 2:18:27.360 the end of it's like two six. Yes, yeah, it was. 2:18:27.520 --> 2:18:31.360 It was incredible. Yeah, no, they I think they there 2:18:31.640 --> 2:18:33.840 and even if you want to go this might take 2:18:33.879 --> 2:18:36.760 us off topic a little bit, right, but like scholars 2:18:36.800 --> 2:18:39.080 who focus on like Venezuela would say, actually, the first 2:18:39.160 --> 2:18:41.360 one was the Karda Castle, right in the late eighties, 2:18:41.360 --> 2:18:45.199 when you have a popular rebellion in Karakas Venezuela against neoliberalism, 2:18:45.240 --> 2:18:48.440 against the liberal starity measures, right, and then so I've 2:18:48.440 --> 2:18:52.280 had that, I've had a talk with friends, will be like, yeah, 2:18:53.040 --> 2:18:54.960 were the first ones? They're like no, no, no, no, no, 2:18:55.200 --> 2:18:58.120 it started in Karaka eighty nine, I think is the 2:18:58.160 --> 2:19:01.000 kinda castle. But yeah, no, I think their global example 2:19:01.040 --> 2:19:03.720 it continues to be a really powerful one for me personally. 2:19:03.760 --> 2:19:06.720 It's like I still remember my parents had my parents 2:19:06.720 --> 2:19:09.320 are are migrants from Mexico. They had this this big 2:19:09.360 --> 2:19:13.119 satellite dish in our backyard so we can beam in uh, 2:19:13.240 --> 2:19:16.640 you know, TV stations from Mexico. And I remember January one, 2:19:16.959 --> 2:19:20.800 we woke up right groggy ley, uh, celebrate New Year's 2:19:20.840 --> 2:19:22.960 and my parents turned on the TV to see Mexico 2:19:23.000 --> 2:19:26.360 City news and there was Modocles, right, and there were 2:19:26.440 --> 2:19:31.000 the Sabbatista's um and there were then the Mexican politicians saying, no, 2:19:31.080 --> 2:19:34.120 don't believe what, don't believe your eyes? This isn't You 2:19:34.200 --> 2:19:35.879 had a guy, I remember you had a guy go 2:19:36.000 --> 2:19:39.800 on TV. I think saying something like this is not 2:19:39.879 --> 2:19:42.320 an indigenous movement, because if it was an indigenous movement, 2:19:42.360 --> 2:19:45.920 they would be using machete is not rifles. Something really condescending, 2:19:46.200 --> 2:19:48.800 like the level of racist condescension that came out of 2:19:48.840 --> 2:19:53.000 Mexican politicians and in in response to this movement, yum 2:19:54.040 --> 2:19:56.360 was was super high. Right. But I remember I was 2:19:56.360 --> 2:19:58.080 in junior high and I remember seeing it and I'm 2:19:58.080 --> 2:20:01.280 just like, the has to be something wrong for these 2:20:01.320 --> 2:20:03.360 people to do this right, And that just led me 2:20:03.520 --> 2:20:05.520 to want to do more research and to do more reading, 2:20:06.040 --> 2:20:08.280 and that I think is really powerful. I think I 2:20:08.320 --> 2:20:10.720 still think it's really powerful. So the more we can 2:20:10.760 --> 2:20:14.000 get the word out about these movements and in other 2:20:14.000 --> 2:20:16.040 parts of Latin America, I think, I think it's still 2:20:16.080 --> 2:20:18.520 really important. And I think especially today, we really we 2:20:18.600 --> 2:20:21.600 do need a bit more hope in these dark pandemic times. 2:20:25.959 --> 2:20:28.320 I was trying to figure out a speaking of hope 2:20:28.440 --> 2:20:31.840 segue and I couldn't. I couldn't quite get it. Do 2:20:32.160 --> 2:20:33.640 you do you have anything that you want to plug? 2:20:33.840 --> 2:20:38.080 Where can people find you? Yeah? Well, thank you so 2:20:38.160 --> 2:20:39.760 much for having me on this was This is a 2:20:39.760 --> 2:20:43.440 lot of fun. Um. You can find me on God 2:20:43.480 --> 2:20:45.400 like you can find me on Twitter. I think the pandemic, 2:20:45.520 --> 2:20:48.040 my Twitter consumption has really gone up. It's been powerful. 2:20:48.120 --> 2:20:53.640 But you can find me at Alexander Underscore Avena. Yeah. Um, 2:20:54.040 --> 2:20:56.160 then I want to plug. No. I think if you 2:20:56.240 --> 2:20:59.240 go on my Twitter page, you'll see you You'll be 2:20:59.280 --> 2:21:00.920 able to get the linked to the to the article 2:21:00.959 --> 2:21:04.760 that we've been talking today, um about about the drug 2:21:05.240 --> 2:21:08.560 from dirty war to drug war into um. I recently 2:21:08.560 --> 2:21:12.480 published a book review of this really fascinating book on 2:21:12.520 --> 2:21:15.560 the connection between the Israeli arms industry and like Cold 2:21:15.560 --> 2:21:17.680 War Latin America, So you can find that on my page. 2:21:18.560 --> 2:21:21.199 But yeah, it's I don't really have anything else to plug. 2:21:22.959 --> 2:21:25.640 Whenever I finished his damn book on the drug wars, 2:21:26.400 --> 2:21:29.720 have me back on and yeah, definitely tangible to the 2:21:29.840 --> 2:21:33.880 plug right now, it's just short little articles. Well, thank 2:21:33.879 --> 2:21:36.800 thank you again for coming on the show. Um yeah, this, 2:21:36.920 --> 2:21:38.560 this is, this has when they could happen here. You 2:21:38.600 --> 2:21:41.560 can find us in the usual places. If do you 2:21:41.560 --> 2:21:44.000 want to venture on social media for some reason, please don't. 2:21:44.120 --> 2:21:49.200 It's it's a bad place. But yeah, thank you and 2:21:49.280 --> 2:22:04.680 goodbye everyone. Ye hey, we'll be back Monday with more 2:22:04.720 --> 2:22:07.400 episodes every week from now until the heat death of 2:22:07.440 --> 2:22:10.200 the Universe. It could Happen Here is a production of 2:22:10.240 --> 2:22:13.160 cool Zone Media. Or more podcasts from cool Zone Media, 2:22:13.280 --> 2:22:15.720 visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check 2:22:15.800 --> 2:22:18.080 us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 2:22:18.160 --> 2:22:21.119 or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources 2:22:21.200 --> 2:22:23.760 for It could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool Zone 2:22:23.760 --> 2:22:26.560 media dot com, slash sources, thanks for listening.