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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you

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Speaker 1: can make your own decisions. Hey, welcome to it could

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Speaker 1: happen here. I'm Garrison, and today I'm gonna be talking

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Speaker 1: about some really big things and ideas, but hopefully I'll

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Speaker 1: be talking with them in a way that contextualizes them

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Speaker 1: and makes you remember that despite their magnitude, there's still

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Speaker 1: very real things that you can interact with. Anyway, I'll

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Speaker 1: get started and eventually it will kind of make sense.

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Speaker 1: So right now we are all living in one massive

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Speaker 1: liminal space. For those less online than I am, I'll

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Speaker 1: explain what I mean. Liminal spaces became an online meme

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Speaker 1: around late twenty nineteen as a term to describe a

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Speaker 1: certain type of picture that features architecture or like just

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Speaker 1: a place that looks off familiar, eerie, lonely, yet mesmerizing

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Speaker 1: and beautiful. I've been an avid lurker on the liminal

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Speaker 1: space subredit for a while now, and there's an undeniable

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Speaker 1: allure to these dreamlike photos of buildings and rooms and

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Speaker 1: the effect that they have on me. Describing what makes

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Speaker 1: a liminal space photo a liminal space photo as opposed

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Speaker 1: to just any other regular photo of a building or

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Speaker 1: a room can be tricky because, in part the point

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Speaker 1: is to elicit a certain feeling without thinking too much

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Speaker 1: about the why they're not spooky or scary in the

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Speaker 1: traditional sense. The gist of a liminal space photo and

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Speaker 1: where it gets its name liminality, is a good place

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Speaker 1: to begin to understand what type of feelings these pictures

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Speaker 1: are supposed to produce. Liminal refers to a transitional phase

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Speaker 1: and the ambiguity and disorientation associated with being inside of

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Speaker 1: a threshold, not on either one side, per se, but

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Speaker 1: somewhere in between. Now, that threshold can be many things.

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Speaker 1: A literal transitionary threshold between certain places is a common one.

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Speaker 1: This can include stuff like hallways and airports. One of

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Speaker 1: my favorites, though, is a threshold between time, an ambiguous,

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Speaker 1: unspecific nostalgia. You can't quite place, but it feels awfully familiar,

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Speaker 1: like a dream from childhood. Pictures of weird indoor, squishy

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Speaker 1: playgrounds do this for me. The other threshold is a

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Speaker 1: threshold between purpose and use, like a building or room

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Speaker 1: designed for a very specific special purpose but now no

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Speaker 1: longer serving that it's empty and out of date, an

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Speaker 1: abandoned mall, or cheery birthday party room at an arcade

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Speaker 1: photographed desolate and in the dark. There's two other aspects

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Speaker 1: of liminal space photos that complement the various thresholds we've mentioned.

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Speaker 1: Usually they have no visible people, and there's a sense

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Speaker 1: of artificiality, like a lot of fluorescent and artificial lighting,

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Speaker 1: and even when there is a sunny outside, it looks fake,

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Speaker 1: like a Windows computer screensaver. One of the most popular

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Speaker 1: liminal space photos is of an underground bunker in Las

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Speaker 1: Vegas that was painted and decorated to look like it's

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Speaker 1: outside despite being buried deep within the ground. It's such

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Speaker 1: a great example of liminal spaces because it elicits a

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Speaker 1: certain type of cognitive dissonance and a distinct lack of

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Speaker 1: synchronicity that is difficult to describe otherwise. Almos never is

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Speaker 1: quote unquote nature the subject of these photos. They nearly

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Speaker 1: exclusively focus on very human constructs, particularly ones that no

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Speaker 1: longer serve their intended use or maybe never did in

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Speaker 1: the first place. So what do I mean by we're

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Speaker 1: all in one huge liminal space right now? Well, we

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Speaker 1: are in between a historic economic and technological boom, one

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Speaker 1: that's produced machines that resemble the magic of old. But

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Speaker 1: on the other side of this valley is global climate

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Speaker 1: catastrophe and destruction and change, the likes of which humans

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Speaker 1: have possibly never seen or at least remembered. We're in

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Speaker 1: the transitionary period between these two states, and that disassociation

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Speaker 1: and not being fully in either one, that that cognitive

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Speaker 1: dissonance can be kind of mind boggling. It's like the

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Speaker 1: nervous anticipation right before the roller coaster goes over the peak,

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Speaker 1: or that weird feeling of being alone in an empty

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Speaker 1: church nursery at night. Similar to liminal space photos, climate

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Speaker 1: change transcends a regular perception of time space, and with

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Speaker 1: that cause and effect, it's more than just a regular thing, phenomenon,

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Speaker 1: or object. While specifically thinking about climate change, philosopher Timothy

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Speaker 1: Morton dubbed these massive space time altering objects as hyper objects. Now,

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Speaker 1: Morton often writes about things that can't be talked about directly,

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Speaker 1: so really the only way to discuss it or get

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Speaker 1: into the topic is to orbit around it, associating with

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Speaker 1: adjacent ideas or words to get close enough to the

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Speaker 1: topic to partially understand it, even if you can't get

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Speaker 1: quite there. Other possible examples of hyper objects besides climate change,

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Speaker 1: can include stuff like black holes, the biosphere, or the

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Speaker 1: solar system. But hyper objects don't need to be just

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Speaker 1: massive celestial things. They can also be the sum total

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Speaker 1: of all nuclear materials on Earth, or the very long

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Speaker 1: lasting product of direct human manufacture, such as all of

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Speaker 1: the styroform of plastic bags in the world. It can

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Speaker 1: also be the sum of all the whirling machinery of

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Speaker 1: capitalism or the state. Hyper objects, then, are hyper just

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Speaker 1: in relation to some other entity, whether they're directly manufactured

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Speaker 1: by humans or not. And hyper objects aren't just collections,

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Speaker 1: systems or assemblages of other objects. They are things in

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Speaker 1: their own right, and they affect more than just humans.

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Speaker 1: They don't come into being just because humans notice them.

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Speaker 1: They will have effects on the world whether or not

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Speaker 1: they are observed One of the more obvious differences between

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Speaker 1: hyper objects and ordinary objects that you can't ever actually

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Speaker 1: see a hyper object in its totality. You can only

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Speaker 1: ever witness a small extension or piece of a hyper object. Now,

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Speaker 1: this makes thinking about them kind of intrinsically tricky. It's

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Speaker 1: like only seeing a fragmented shadow of a thing and

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Speaker 1: the effects that that thing has on all other things. Now,

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Speaker 1: the more contrarian listeners might protest that we never see

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Speaker 1: all of any object, even ordinary ones. Now, it's obviously

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Speaker 1: true that everything we see has a negative side, the

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Speaker 1: part behind that we can't actually always look at, but

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Speaker 1: can reasonably assume is there. Now, the difference is that

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Speaker 1: hyper objects transcend not only a regular conception of physical reality,

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Speaker 1: but more so our temporal reality. You can hold a

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Speaker 1: coffee monk and rotate it around in a pretty short

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Speaker 1: amount of time and witnessed each side and angle, Or

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Speaker 1: if you wanted to get really fancy, you could make

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Speaker 1: a three sixty scan so you can see a projected

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Speaker 1: version of the entire object, Or you know more, simply

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Speaker 1: just get three people in a room to all look

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Speaker 1: at different sides of the mug, thus forming a consensual

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Speaker 1: reality based understanding of the whole object. Now, not only

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Speaker 1: can you not hold a hyper object, but even if

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Speaker 1: you could, the temporal effects would make it impossible to

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Speaker 1: rotate it around to witness the totality of what's being held,

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Speaker 1: and it would be way too big for multip people

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Speaker 1: to ever witness all sides of the thing. Quoting from

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Speaker 1: Morton's book hyper Objects, The Philosophy and Ecology After the

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Speaker 1: End of the World, quote, consider raindrops. You can feel

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Speaker 1: them on your head, but you can't perceive the actual

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Speaker 1: raindrop in itself. You can only ever perceive your particular

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Speaker 1: anthropomorphic translation of the raindrops. Isn't this similar to the

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Speaker 1: rift between weather, which I can feel falling on my head,

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Speaker 1: and global climate, not the older idea of local patterns

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Speaker 1: of weather, but the entire system. I can think of

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Speaker 1: an compute climate in this sense, but I can't directly

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Speaker 1: see or touch it. The gap between the phenomenon and

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Speaker 1: the thing yawns wide open, disturbing my sense of presence

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Speaker 1: and being in the world. Humans have been aware of

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Speaker 1: enormous entities, some realism imagined for as long as we

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Speaker 1: have existed, but this book is arguing that there is

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Speaker 1: something quite special about the recently discovered entities such as climate.

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Speaker 1: These entities directly cause us to reflect on our very

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Speaker 1: place on Earth and in the cosmos. Perhaps this is

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Speaker 1: the most fundamental issue. Hyper objects seem to force something

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Speaker 1: on us, something that affects some core idea of what

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Speaker 1: it means to exist, what Earth is, what society is.

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Speaker 1: There's no doubt that cosmic phenomenon such as meteors and

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Speaker 1: blood red moons, tsunamis, tornadoes, and earthquakes have terrified humans.

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Speaker 1: In the past, meteors and comets were known as does asters. Literally,

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Speaker 1: a disaster is a fallen, dysfunctional, or dangerous or evil

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Speaker 1: star disaster. But such disasters take place against a stable backdrop.

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Speaker 1: There is the Ptolemaic Aristolian machinery of the stars, which

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Speaker 1: hold fixed stars in place. It seems as if there's

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Speaker 1: something about hyper objects that is more deeply challenging than

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Speaker 1: these disasters. The worry is not whether the world will end,

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Speaker 1: as in the old models of the disaster, but whether

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Speaker 1: the end of the world is already happening, or whether

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Speaker 1: perhaps it might have already taken place. A deep shuttering

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Speaker 1: of temporality than occurs. For one thing, we are inside

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Speaker 1: hyper objects like Jonah in the Whale. This means that

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Speaker 1: every decision we make is in some sense related to

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Speaker 1: hyper objects. These decisions are not merely limited to sentences

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Speaker 1: and to be about hyper objects. When I turned the

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Speaker 1: key in the Ignition of my Car, I am relating

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Speaker 1: to global warming. When a novelist writes about the immigration

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Speaker 1: to Mars, they are relating to global warming. I am

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Speaker 1: one of the entities caught in the hyper object that

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Speaker 1: I here call global warming. Different hyper objects have numerous

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Speaker 1: properties in common, but for our purposes we're going to

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Speaker 1: discuss the five main points of similarity. Hyper Objects are viscous,

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Speaker 1: meaning they stick to beings that are involved with them.

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Speaker 1: They are nonlocal, in other words, and any local manifestation

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Speaker 1: of the hyper object is not directly the hyper object.

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Speaker 1: They involve very different temporalities than the human scale ones

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Speaker 1: that were used to In particular, some very very large

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Speaker 1: hyper objects have a genuine Gaussian temporality. They generate space

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Speaker 1: time vortexes due to general relativity, and hyper objects are

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Speaker 1: ocupy a higher dimensional phase space that results in their

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Speaker 1: being invisible to humans for structures of time, and they

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Speaker 1: exhibit their effects inter objectively. That is, they can be

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Speaker 1: detected in a space that consists of inter relationships between

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Speaker 1: aesthetic properties of objects. The hyper object is not just

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Speaker 1: a function of our knowledge. It is also hyper relative

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Speaker 1: to worms, lemons, and ultra violet rays as well as humans.

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Speaker 1: Now I'm going to go into the five different points

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Speaker 1: of similarity in more detail to kind of help flesh

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Speaker 1: out what these things hyper objects, what they are, and

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Speaker 1: how they might actually be a useful way to think

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Speaker 1: about really big stuff. So, first off, viscous hyper objects

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Speaker 1: adhere to any object they touch, no matter how hard

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Speaker 1: the objects tries to resist. In this way, hyper objects

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Speaker 1: overrule ironic distance, meaning that the more an object tries

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Speaker 1: to resist a hyper object, the more glued to the

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Speaker 1: hyper object it becomes. Now, the more you learn about

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Speaker 1: any big topic, the more you'll end up noticing it

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Speaker 1: in the world. This is the law of synchronicity. But

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Speaker 1: the more you know about climate change, the more you

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Speaker 1: realize how perversive it is. The more you discover about evolution,

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Speaker 1: the more you realize how much our entire physical being

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Speaker 1: is caught in its meshwork. Immediate intimate symptoms of hyper

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Speaker 1: objects are very real, vivid, and often painful. Yet they

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Speaker 1: carry with them this trace of unreality. A good example

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Speaker 1: of hyper object viscosity would be radioactive materials. The more

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Speaker 1: you try to get rid of them, the more you

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Speaker 1: realize you can't. They seriously undermine the notion of a

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Speaker 1: way there is no away. Flushing vomit down the toilet

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Speaker 1: doesn't make it disappear. It makes its way to the

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Speaker 1: ocean or the water treatment facility, and eventually just back

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Speaker 1: to us. Again. I'll quote from the book hyper Objects

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Speaker 1: quote late itself is the most viscous thing of all,

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Speaker 1: since nothing can surpass its speed. Radiation is Sartra's jar

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Speaker 1: of honey par excellence, a luminous honey that reveals our

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Speaker 1: bone structure as it seeps around us. Again, it's not

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Speaker 1: a matter of making some suicidal leap into the honey,

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Speaker 1: but discovering that we are already inside it. This is it, folks,

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Speaker 1: This is the ecological interconnectedness. Come in and join the fun.

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Speaker 1: But I see that you're already here. Unquote. Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: is a that's fun. The next point of similarity where

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Speaker 1: to discussed, is the molten or Gaussian quality. Hyper Objects

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Speaker 1: are time stretched to such an extent that they become

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Speaker 1: impossible to hold in the mind. Hyper objects are so

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Speaker 1: massive that they refute the idea that spacetime is fixed, concrete,

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Speaker 1: and consistent. The size of hyper objects can make them

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Speaker 1: basically invisible, just because they're so big. It's like swimming

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Speaker 1: in Crater Lake in southern Oregon, one of the deepest

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Speaker 1: lakes in the world. But it's not just deep, it's

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Speaker 1: also very very clear. So the water is so deep

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Speaker 1: yet so clear. It's like you're swimming in the sky.

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Speaker 1: It's like you're swimming in nothing. It would be like

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Speaker 1: if you approach an object and more and more objects

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Speaker 1: emerge because we can't see the end of them. Hyper

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Speaker 1: objects are necessarily uncanny. They have to be. Just like

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Speaker 1: my favorite liminal space photos. Hyper objects seem to beckon

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Speaker 1: us further into themselves, making us realize that we're already

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Speaker 1: lost inside them. The recognition of being caught in hyper

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Speaker 1: objects is precisely a feeling of strange familiarity and a

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Speaker 1: familiar strangeness. Next up is non locality. Hyper objects are

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Speaker 1: massively distributed in time and space, such as any particular

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Speaker 1: local manifestation never actually reveals the totality of the hyper object.

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Speaker 1: For example, climate change is a hyper object that impacts

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Speaker 1: meteorological conditions, such as tornado formations. Objects don't feel climate change,

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Speaker 1: but instead experienced tornadoes as they cause damage in specific places. Thus,

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Speaker 1: nonlocality describes the manner in which a hyper object becomes

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Speaker 1: more substantial than the local manifestations that they produce, putting

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Speaker 1: moreton again. For a flower, nuclear radiation turns its leaves

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Speaker 1: a strange shade of red. Global warming for the tomato

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Speaker 1: farmer rots the tomatoes. Plastic for the bird, strangles it

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Speaker 1: as it becomes entangled in the set of six pack rings.

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Speaker 1: What we are really dealing with here are just the

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Speaker 1: aesthetic effects that are directly causal the octopus of the

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Speaker 1: hyper object amidst a cloud of ink as it withdrawals

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Speaker 1: from access. Yet this cloud of ink is a cloud

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Speaker 1: of its effects and effects. These phenomenon themselves are not

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Speaker 1: global warming or radiation. Action at a distance is involved.

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Speaker 1: It's like confusing the map with the territory. Type of

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Speaker 1: objects cannot be thought up as occupying a series of

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Speaker 1: now points in time or space. They confound the social

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Speaker 1: and psychic instruments we use to measure them. Even digital

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Speaker 1: devices have trouble. Global warming is not just a function

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Speaker 1: of our measuring devices. Yet, because it's distributed across the

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Speaker 1: biosphere and beyond, it's hard to see it as a

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Speaker 1: unique entity. And yet there it is raining down on us,

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Speaker 1: burning down on us, quaking the earth, spawning giant hurricanes.

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Speaker 1: Global warming is an object of which many things are

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Speaker 1: distributed pieces, the rain drops falling on my head in

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Speaker 1: northern California, the tsunami that pours through the streets of

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Speaker 1: Japanese towns, the increasing earthquake activity based on changing pressure

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Speaker 1: on the ocean floor like a moving illusion picture. Glibal

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Speaker 1: warming is real, but it involves a massive, counterintuitive perspective

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Speaker 1: shift for us to see it. Convincing some people of

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Speaker 1: its existence is like convincing some two dimensional flatland people

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Speaker 1: of the existence of apples based on the appearance of

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Speaker 1: a morphing circular shape in their world. Next point of

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Speaker 1: similarity is phasing. So our sense of being in a

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Speaker 1: time and inhabiting a place depends on forms of regularity,

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Speaker 1: the periodic rhythms of day and night, the sun coming up.

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Speaker 1: Only now we know that it doesn't really come up.

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Speaker 1: It's now common knowledge that the moon's phases are just

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Speaker 1: the relationship between the Earth and the Moon as circumnavigate

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Speaker 1: to the Sun. Hyper objects seem to phase in and

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Speaker 1: out of the human world. They occupy a higher dimensional

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Speaker 1: phase space that makes them impossible to see as a

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Speaker 1: whole on our regular three dimensional human scale basis, but

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Speaker 1: they might appear differently to an observer with a higher

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Speaker 1: dimensional view. We can only see pieces of a hyper

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Speaker 1: object at a time. The reason why they appear non

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Speaker 1: local and temporarily for shortened is precisely because of this

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Speaker 1: trans dimensional quality. We can only see pieces of them

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Speaker 1: at once, like a tsunami or a taste of radiation sickness.

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Speaker 1: If an apple were to invade a two dimensional world,

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Speaker 1: first the stick people would see some dots as the

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Speaker 1: bottom of the apple touched their universe, and then a

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Speaker 1: rapid succession of shapes that would appear like an expanding

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Speaker 1: and contracting circular blob, diminishing into a tiny circle, possibly

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Speaker 1: a point, and then disappearing. That's why you can't directly

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Speaker 1: see climate change. You would need to occupy some higher

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Speaker 1: dimensional space to see the hyper object unfolding explicitly. Like

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Speaker 1: the people in the two dimensional flat land, we can

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Speaker 1: only see brief patches of this gigantic object as it

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Speaker 1: intersects with our world. The brief patch called hurricane destroys

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Speaker 1: the infrastructure of New Orleans. The brief patch called drought

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Speaker 1: burns the plains of Russia and the Midwestern United States

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Speaker 1: to a crisp our. Bodies itch with yesterday's sunburn. But

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Speaker 1: don't relegate hyper objects as a simple abstract notion. The

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Speaker 1: game of hyper objects as transdimensional real things is valuable.

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Speaker 1: Global warming is not simply a mathematical abstraction that doesn't

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Speaker 1: really pertain to this world. Hyper Objects don't just inhabit

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Speaker 1: some conceptual beyond in our heads or out there. They

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Speaker 1: are real objects that affect other objects. We tend to

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Speaker 1: only think about hyper objects as they phase in and

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Speaker 1: connect to other, more static objects. This is a mistake

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Speaker 1: and contributes to non action. Whether or not we perceive

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Speaker 1: objects and hyper objects connecting doesn't affect the existence and

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Speaker 1: the inevitable effects of the hyper object. What we experience

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Speaker 1: as the slow periodic re occurrence of a celestial event

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Speaker 1: such as an eclipse or a comet, is a continuous

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Speaker 1: entity whose imprint simply shows up on our social and

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Speaker 1: cognitive space for a while. The gaps I perceive between

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Speaker 1: moments at which my mind is aware of the hyper object,

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Speaker 1: and moments at which it isn't do not matter in

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Speaker 1: relation to the hyper object itself. Okay, and now onto

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Speaker 1: our final point of similarity. Inter Objective hyper objects are

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Speaker 1: formed by relations between more than one object. Consequently, objects

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Speaker 1: are only able to perceive the imprint or foot print

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Speaker 1: of a hyper object upon other objects revealed as information.

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Speaker 1: It's all an ecological mesh of interconnectedness and inter objectivity.

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Speaker 1: For example, climate change is formed by interactions between the sun,

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Speaker 1: fossil fuels, carbon dioxide, economic growth, among other things. Yet

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Speaker 1: climate change is made apparent through emissions levels, temperature changes,

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Speaker 1: and the sea level rising, making it seem as if

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Speaker 1: global warming is a product of scientific models rather than

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Speaker 1: connected to an object that predates its own measurement. Hyper

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Speaker 1: Objects exist in and between objects and things we deal

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Speaker 1: with every day, but it's not simply those objects. Plastic

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Speaker 1: bags are not climate change, but those things are both intertwined.

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Speaker 1: Hurricanes are not climate change, but they can be a

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Speaker 1: shadow like local manifestation of it. A mesh consists of

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Speaker 1: relationships between criss crossing strands and the gaps between strands.

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Speaker 1: Meshes are a potent metaphor for the strange interconnectedness of things,

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Speaker 1: and interconnectedness that does not allow for perfect, lossless transmission

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Speaker 1: of information, but is instead full of gaps and absences.

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Speaker 1: When an object is born, it is instantly meshed into

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Speaker 1: a relationship with other objects in the mesh. The mesh

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Speaker 1: isn't inside of all things, but it's on the edge

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Speaker 1: or floats on top of all things. Inter objective mesh

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Speaker 1: is the extra connecting layer between the mass and the

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Speaker 1: mask of all objects, almost like a universal skin fascia.

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Speaker 1: Inter objectivity provides a space that is ontologically in front

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Speaker 1: of objects in which relational phenomenon can emerge. The massiveness

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Speaker 1: and distribution of hyper objects simply force us to take

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Speaker 1: note of this fact. Hyper objects provide great examples of

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Speaker 1: inter objectivity, namely the way in which nothing has ever

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Speaker 1: experienced directly, but only as mediated through other entities in

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Speaker 1: some shared consensual space. We never hear the wind in itself,

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Speaker 1: only the wind in the door, the wind in the trees.

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Speaker 1: This means that for every objective system, there is at

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Speaker 1: least one entity that is withdrawn from the relationship. We

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Speaker 1: see the footprint of a dinosaur left in some ancient

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Speaker 1: rock that was once a pool of mud. The dinosaur's

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Speaker 1: reality exists inter objectively. There is some form of shared

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Speaker 1: space between the rock, ourselves, and the dinosaur, even though

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Speaker 1: the dinosaur isn't there directly. The print of a dinosaur's

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Speaker 1: foot in the mud is seen as a foot shaped

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Speaker 1: whole in a rock by humans sixty five million years later.

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Speaker 1: There is some sensuous connection then, between the dinosaur, the rock,

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Speaker 1: and the human, despite their vastly differing time scales. The

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Speaker 1: dinosaur footprint in fossilized mud is not a dinosaur. Rather,

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Speaker 1: the footprint is a trace of the hyper object evolution

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Speaker 1: that joins me, the dinosaur, and the mud together, along

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Speaker 1: with the intentional act of holding them in the mind.

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Speaker 1: I found the hyper object banner as a useful tool

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Speaker 1: to help my brain think about things that are just

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Speaker 1: too big, things that have effects so spaced out in

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Speaker 1: time that using our ordinary models of thought are just inadequate.

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Speaker 1: You can also reconcile the opposing views that cast climate

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Speaker 1: change as the very real series of disasters or are

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Speaker 1: a complicated, interlocking mess of systems that can feel very

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Speaker 1: unreal and overwhelming. Just thinking of big things as abstract

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Speaker 1: systems has the habit of divorcing you from the real

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Speaker 1: world impacts things like hyper objects can cause. Sometimes we

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Speaker 1: forget that climate change is a thing we interact with

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Speaker 1: every day and can inform choices we make. Now the

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Speaker 1: almost impossible to comprehend totality of our situation. It's not

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Speaker 1: great for mental well being. You can end up tail

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Speaker 1: spinning down a black hole of fate, conspiracy, coping, denial,

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Speaker 1: and doom. It's very easy to trip and fall into

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Speaker 1: a void of negation. Things that are hyper objects fundamentally

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Speaker 1: break our conception of reality temporality and cause an effect.

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Speaker 1: And it's already a really weird time to try to

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Speaker 1: suss out reality. We're constantly being bombarded with products and

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Speaker 1: services trying to usurp the real That's what Mark Kotting is.

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Speaker 1: You know, first we had the Internet with its limitless

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Speaker 1: possibilities as a digital universe. Then we got the world

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Speaker 1: of social media with all of its fractured and fractal realities.

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Speaker 1: There's a massive gaming and the allure of getting lost

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Speaker 1: within thousands of unique worlds. And now we have VR

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00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 1: a R and the metaverse, more layers of digital fabrication

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Speaker 1: trying to be passed off as an almost hyper reality,

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00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 1: a promise to make a reality even more real and

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Speaker 1: immersive than our status quo. The Internet itself is another

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Speaker 1: hyper object, and all this extra reality can take a

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Speaker 1: strain on the human mind. De realization, the perception that

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00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: actual waking reality is an artificial construct. The feeling of

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00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 1: being de attached from your surroundings, like the world's made

404
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 1: of cardboard, or you're looking at everything through a cloud

405
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 1: of fog, is becoming more and more common, especially among

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Speaker 1: so called gen Z, the generation that drew up with

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Speaker 1: the Internet being a staple of life. Now. How we

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00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 1: got here is a disassociation between humans and what we

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Speaker 1: call nature or the environment. The problems aren't getting fixed

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00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 1: because we're so disassociated from the effects, just as the

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Speaker 1: effects are from the cause. That resulting alienation of all

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Speaker 1: things makes this worse. All of the worst effects the

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Speaker 1: climate change aren't going to be felt for hundreds of years.

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Speaker 1: And that is a weird feeling. That is cognitive dissonance

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00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: that I don't know how to understand that, and that

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00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 1: makes making decisions about our situation now feel distant yet

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00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 1: also urgent. It's both and it's neither, and it's confusing.

418
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: The resulting alienation of all things makes this worse. It

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Speaker 1: produces this lack of immediate and close and proximity consequences.

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Speaker 1: We must purposely remove these layers of separation and abandoned

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Speaker 1: our anthropocentric thinking. Nature isn't other from us. We are nature,

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Speaker 1: It's the same thing. We are all part of this

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Speaker 1: big mesh. This, this sacred idea of nature isn't natural

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Speaker 1: and can never be naturalized. We have to learn how

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Speaker 1: to have an ecology without nature, with without nature as

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Speaker 1: a separate thing. To have a genuine ecological view, we

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00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 1: must relinquish this idea that nature being separate from us,

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Speaker 1: once and for all. We have to kill the anthroprosyne

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Speaker 1: in our own head. A quote from one of Morton's

430
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 1: other books titled Ecology Without Nature. Putting something called nature

431
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 1: on a pedestal and admiring it from afar does for

432
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: the environment what patriarchy does for the figure of a woman.

433
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 1: It's a paradoxical act of sadistic, possessive admiration unquote. So

434
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: within more, in branch of philosophy, reification, the making of

435
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: a thing into a thing is precisely the reduction of

436
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 1: a real object to its sensual appearance for another object.

437
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: Reification is reduction of one's entity to another's fantasy about it.

438
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 1: Nature is a realification in this sense, and that's why

439
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: we need an ecology without nature. Maybe if we turn

440
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 1: nature into something more fluid, it might work. Now, most

441
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 1: of our modern political discourse can be boiled down to

442
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 1: what things are real and what things are not. Hyper

443
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: objects and climate change don't just play into this debate,

444
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: but crash into it, decimating all the other toys in

445
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 1: this sandbox. As Morton says, the threat of global warming

446
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 1: is not only political but also ontological. The threat of

447
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 1: unreality is the very sign of reality itself. And oh boy,

448
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: do we be experiencing this simultaneous disillusionment of reality and

449
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 1: the overwhelmingly real presence of hyper objects which stick to us,

450
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: which are us. The worry is not whether the world

451
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 1: will end, but whether the end of the world is

452
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: already happening, or whether perhaps they might have already taken place.

453
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 1: The idea of the end of the world is very

454
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: active in environmentalism, but the way it's usually framed kind

455
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: of fosters its own negation. The end of the world

456
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 1: is coming idea is not really effective, since to all

457
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: types of purposes, the being that we are supposed to

458
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 1: feel anxiety about and care for is actually already gone.

459
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: This does not mean that there's no hope for ecological

460
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: politics and ethics and a better future. Far from it.

461
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 1: In fact, Morton and I would argue that the strongly

462
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 1: held belief that the world's about to end unless we

463
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 1: act now is paradoxically one of the most powerful factors

464
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 1: that inhibit a full engagement with our ecological coexistence here

465
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: on Earth. The strategy of the ecological hyper object concept

466
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 1: is to then awaken us from this dream that the

467
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: world's about to end, because action on Earth, like the

468
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: real Earth, depends on it, the end of the world

469
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 1: has already happened. Using the hyper object idea helps sort

470
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: out these overly systematic things into a package that I

471
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: can actually think about. There's something about discovering the language

472
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: for a feeling, being able to name it that is

473
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: empowering a way of finding handhold in the dim light

474
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 1: of confusion, rather than scrambling around in the dark. So

475
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: how would you convince two dimensional flatland people of the

476
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 1: existence of apples based on the occasional phasing appearance of

477
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: a morphing circular shape in their world. Now, hyper objects

478
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: can really assist in understanding the cognitive dissonance around to

479
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,719
Speaker 1: climate and a nial. You can't point to something like

480
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 1: rising sea levels and say that is climate change, because yeah,

481
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: that isn't climate change. The hyper object rising sea levels

482
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: are just an environmental effect, and since the effects are

483
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 1: so disattached from the cause, that fosters a lot of

484
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 1: room for cognitive dissonance. When people point at extreme weather

485
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 1: and call it something else. It's our lack of ecology.

486
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: Are seeing of interconnected things as separate problems or manifestations,

487
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 1: missing the fact that almost all of our problems don't

488
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 1: have a shared root cause, but instead are just part

489
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: of a massive, shared bungee cord like mesh network. When

490
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: so many local manifesting problems and actual disasters are blamed

491
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: on climate change, even if you believe climate change is

492
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: the cause, which you know it is, it still feels

493
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 1: weird because climate change isn't just a simple thing. It's

494
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 1: such an amorphous shape shifting time traveling idea that for

495
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 1: the climate denier or climate skeptic, seeing very real physical

496
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 1: effects be blamed on such an abstract thing is hard.

497
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: For them and their understanding of reality. For many people,

498
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 1: rejecting hyper objects is a lot easier than thinking about them,

499
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 1: because once you start thinking about them, finding solutions to

500
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 1: problems so displaced in time it's not only difficult but

501
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 1: encourages procrastination. The greenhouse gas emissions up there in the

502
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:35,800
Speaker 1: air right now won't reach their full effects for decades

503
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 1: and centuries. That's not downplaying the urgency of the problem.

504
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 1: In fact, that should make the problem more urgent. The

505
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:48,320
Speaker 1: cause is our brief luxury, and the effect is terror

506
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 1: forming the world. And we are right now caught in

507
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: between the uncanny hyper object of all liminal spaces. The

508
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 1: end of the world has already happened. We are on

509
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 1: the path and about to enter a new world. We

510
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 1: are in the liminal space hallway of all liminal space hallways.

511
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: The door behind us is closed, and at the other

512
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,800
Speaker 1: end of the hallway is a black hole. We cannot

513
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 1: backtrack and re enter the door behind us. Already are

514
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 1: we getting sucked forward into the hallway. But there are

515
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 1: many doors ahead of us, and we get to choose

516
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 1: which one to open. At this point, we have passed

517
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: some of the prettier doors, but don't be tricked into

518
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 1: thinking that there are none left. We must not focus

519
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 1: on preserving an old way of life, but instead need

520
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 1: to carefully carve out our new reality. We need to

521
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:49,279
Speaker 1: pick our new door. Well, that is my essay. Read

522
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 1: thing episode amalcamation about hyper objects, liminal spaces, and our

523
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: new reality. I hope you found some of the ideas useful,

524
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:05,800
Speaker 1: um despite their kind of abstract and anti abstract and nature.

525
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:08,279
Speaker 1: If you want to learn more about this, I would

526
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 1: recommend reading Timothy Morton's book hyper Objects Um. It is

527
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,280
Speaker 1: an academic read, but it's not that bad. I would

528
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:18,439
Speaker 1: I would recommend picking up if you want to learn

529
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 1: more about these things. I'm sure I'll talk about them

530
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,919
Speaker 1: more in the future. Thank you for listening. Everybody, see

531
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 1: you on the other side. Hey, yeah, welcome to it

532
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: Could Happen Here podcast. I'm Robert Evans. So is that it?

533
00:36:54,400 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: I'm fortunate. I'm so sorry. We just apologize really quick.

534
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 1: That's a lot to take in. No, that was a

535
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,840
Speaker 1: good introduction. That was a good introduction. We got across

536
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: the gist. Who else is here with you? That's a

537
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 1: great question. Is Garrison here? Yeah? I think they're here.

538
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:20,879
Speaker 1: Is Chris here is saying Andrew here, I am indeed excellent. Um,

539
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 1: why don't you take over and do and do my

540
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 1: job for me? That sounds awesome, actually good idea, fantastic,

541
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 1: it was happening everybody, I am saying Andrew back to

542
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 1: guest host yet again. Um, last time we spoke about

543
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 1: you know, uh soft climate change, Nile and continue at

544
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 1: the theme of me talking about whatever I want to

545
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 1: talk about as food contractual obblication. Um. Today I wanted

546
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,320
Speaker 1: to explode a concept that I brought up one of

547
00:37:53,320 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 1: my recent videos, UM, self and community actualization. Yeah right,

548
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 1: So first we needs getting some context, of course. Um.

549
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 1: I mean when most people hear self actualization, they probably

550
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: think of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right, the famous permit

551
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 1: that management uh staff tend to use up in their

552
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 1: offices and such Los Angeles yoga ladies. Uh. The context

553
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:29,479
Speaker 1: in which I've heard self actualization the most Yeah yeah,

554
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 1: that whole group kind of you know yeah. Um, but yeah,

555
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: so self actualization massve hierarchy of needs, the old psych

556
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: one on one stuff, you know. I mean, it's traditionally

557
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 1: represented as a pyramid, but it was never how Maslow

558
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:49,359
Speaker 1: himself actually depicted it. Um. It was actually something that

559
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 1: later in two parts of his work, ran with and popularized. UM.

560
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 1: And so that as a result of that pramid, there

561
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 1: are a lot of you know, critiques of Master's theory

562
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 1: that don't quite engage with his theory, would rather engage

563
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 1: with like interpretations of his theory by other people. But um,

564
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's still an interesting way to

565
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 1: depict human needs. And I think it's a good launching

566
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:23,359
Speaker 1: point to start thinking about and start discussing, you know,

567
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 1: human needs. Um what you'll think you'll are on the

568
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:32,880
Speaker 1: pyramid right now, just for posterity's sake, Oh, right up

569
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 1: on the tippy top. I mean, I'm like I've been.

570
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 1: I've been. I've been very lucky to do exactly like

571
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 1: what I want to do for a living most of

572
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: my life. And and now I own goats. So it

573
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 1: doesn't get anything that including one absolute unit. He's fucking massive.

574
00:39:51,000 --> 00:40:00,160
Speaker 1: He's a chunky buddy. What about Karen. Yes, I really don't, No,

575
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't spend too much time thinking about

576
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 1: models like this, especially around kind of my own my

577
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 1: own goals, um, and like where I see myself. Um, well,

578
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I'm i'm I'm doing like

579
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 1: I'm I'm I'm relatively stable with my like actual physical needs. Um,

580
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:21,839
Speaker 1: so I guess yeah, I'm just trying to figure out

581
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,960
Speaker 1: what I actually want out of life, like a lot

582
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 1: of younger people do. I guess, right, right, So I

583
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 1: guess that's more on the m esteem or yes, self

584
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 1: asunization side of things. Yeah, And it's harder because you

585
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 1: can say, like, well, within the context of like what

586
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: is possible, I'm I'm I'm aware, I want to be

587
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,760
Speaker 1: and I'm doing stuff that I want to be doing,

588
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,319
Speaker 1: but also everything feels like a disaster around me all

589
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 1: the time because yeah, the time simon, which makes it

590
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: difficult to be is right. I was about to say,

591
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 1: is anybody really on the safe he needs category of

592
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 1: of the pyramid? I mean some people like absolutely, yeah,

593
00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 1: but this group, I mean yeah, like we we we are.

594
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,240
Speaker 1: There's like a weird there's like a weird disassociation between

595
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:20,359
Speaker 1: what's actually going on and what we know could be

596
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:26,919
Speaker 1: going on in like the larger sphere. Yeah, yeah, that's

597
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 1: that's a very good way of thinking about it. Is like, yeah,

598
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 1: my immediate needs are met, am I very concerned that

599
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 1: large chunks of the places I love will be unlivable,

600
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 1: and you know there will be that we're kind of

601
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 1: staring in the face of a variety of calamities that

602
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 1: that could uh make everything worse for me and everybody

603
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: I care about, absolutely, but I can't do anything about that, right.

604
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 1: The other thing I was going to point out is

605
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:56,840
Speaker 1: that with like with like, the physio needs is that

606
00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:04,720
Speaker 1: includes sleep. Okay, well, this is who you're talking about,

607
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 1: being the sun shining down on the pyramid and it

608
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 1: gets up there, you know, the sleep. The sleep scientists

609
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 1: have had their pockets in big bed for far too long,

610
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 1: exactly the cozy industrial complex problem. It's fine, I was

611
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 1: just gonna say something else, So I was gonna say that, um,

612
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 1: you know, the pyramid, as we are discovering in this

613
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 1: conversation doesn't really accurately map out you know, needs and

614
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 1: human psychology really because I mean not just because our

615
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 1: brains aren't shaped like pyramids, but also because at any

616
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 1: point in time, we can be struggling multiple um sections

617
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 1: and parts of the needs. So, for example, we could

618
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 1: all be breathing air and drinking water and having enough

619
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: food and stuff met right now, um. And you know,

620
00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:02,280
Speaker 1: you might be like really respected and stuff in your field. Um,

621
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 1: and you might have a certain could let sense of

622
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 1: self esteem and stuff. But then at the same time,

623
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 1: you know you're not in a safe place, or you

624
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,640
Speaker 1: may be dealing with like a debilitating health condition, or

625
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 1: you maybe lack in certain resources that you need to

626
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 1: like thrive, right so and then or maybe you know

627
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 1: you have your food, water, shelter, sleep, all that, and

628
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 1: you know you're secure and you have what you need

629
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,840
Speaker 1: and whatever, but you have no friends. You know, you

630
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 1: have no intimacy, no family sense a connection with other people.

631
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 1: So you're kind of like living in this bubble, just

632
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,240
Speaker 1: floating through life, you know. I mean, your bubble is safe,

633
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: it has what you need, but there's not that social aspect.

634
00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 1: And I think what's interesting about this is because as

635
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 1: we start to talk about matters hierarchy of needs, we

636
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 1: start to see the structural and societal um impact on

637
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:14,799
Speaker 1: you know, our psychology and on our needs. Right because

638
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:17,240
Speaker 1: if you want to talk about our safety needs, for example,

639
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,240
Speaker 1: but let's get to stay to the to the bottom,

640
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 1: to the basic. If you wanna talk about physiological needs.

641
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:28,800
Speaker 1: Water is now a package and commodified product. Right, food

642
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 1: is something that is inaccessible too many, not because we

643
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 1: don't have enough food, but because the distribution of it

644
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 1: to meet the needs of all it's not what's prioritized

645
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 1: on the capitalism right. There are people who are lacking

646
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,879
Speaker 1: in shelter, you know, um, And a lot of people

647
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 1: are sleep deprived by the systems we're living in. Yeah,

648
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 1: m hmm. And the same thing with safety, you know. UM,

649
00:44:55,040 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 1: we have based literally threatened by climate change, and you know,

650
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 1: we are atomized from our relationships and stuff because so

651
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 1: much so many of us have to work so hard,

652
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 1: you know, every day, five days a week or more,

653
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 1: eight hours or more, pretty and it really just strips

654
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 1: us of our social connections and that's our ste meats

655
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 1: were sort of stripped of that by you know, these

656
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:23,960
Speaker 1: commercial messages that we get about like you're not this

657
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 1: unless you have this, and bye bye bye kind of thing. Right.

658
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 1: And in self actualization isn't even really a thought for

659
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 1: a lot of people because they're still busy trying to

660
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 1: reach all those other things um or don't even have

661
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: the time to think about how they can become who

662
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 1: they are. UM. And we get into that a bit

663
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 1: more later on in this discussion, but they don't really

664
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:48,839
Speaker 1: have the time of the sense to think about that

665
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:54,399
Speaker 1: because they've been so restricted by their circumstances, right, and

666
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:58,879
Speaker 1: on top of that, restricted by like the messages that

667
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:00,799
Speaker 1: they would have gotten, you know, whether it be in

668
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 1: the school system or through ads or whatever the case

669
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 1: may be. So I think looking at the pyramid, of

670
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 1: course it's incomplete and the issues with it, but it

671
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,839
Speaker 1: does illuminate some interesting things that you know, we're dealing

672
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 1: with right now. I mean, yeah, like if it definitely

673
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 1: it's easier to self actualize and have esteem once your

674
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:23,760
Speaker 1: needs are met. But I think definitely there's an ability

675
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 1: to jump around, especially when you know you have like

676
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 1: a large scale depression and alienation and disassociation. Think it,

677
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 1: it's a weird sense where you can kind of hop

678
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 1: around the pyramid quite quite often, even if you have

679
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 1: certain things met. This doesn't necessarily mean you have something

680
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: you know above or below. Yeah, Like I I I

681
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:48,919
Speaker 1: when it comes to like actual people that I associate with,

682
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 1: you know, all of whom are folks who have to,

683
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 1: like I have to work in order to live. I

684
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 1: don't think it I've ever heard anyone talk about happiness

685
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 1: in terms of like self actualization. It's always in terms

686
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,319
Speaker 1: of like when I get my student loans paid off,

687
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:06,319
Speaker 1: you know, when I get my when I'm able to

688
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:08,319
Speaker 1: take care of this health problem that i have, Like

689
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:11,399
Speaker 1: when I have enough money. It's basically everything boils down

690
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 1: to for most people, when I have enough money to

691
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 1: not be as suffering as much from the specific thing,

692
00:47:17,840 --> 00:47:21,840
Speaker 1: or to not be scared about not having enough money. Um,

693
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 1: which is I think more would I get from people

694
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 1: when they're talking about like aspirational goals than I would

695
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 1: like to do this thing that that fulfills me as

696
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:37,359
Speaker 1: a person. Um yeah, yeah, yes. It's like like any

697
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 1: any kind of actual self actualization becomes this not just

698
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:47,360
Speaker 1: a luxury, but a luxury that's just unimaginable. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

699
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 1: Some people can't even imagine. I know people who have

700
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 1: just basically given up on, like ever being able to

701
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:56,319
Speaker 1: repay their loans, right Like they've just resigned themselves like

702
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 1: this is my life now, all the tunity, this is

703
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,839
Speaker 1: this is it, you know, and I can't blame them.

704
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 1: Who can really blame them? When that is the reality.

705
00:48:06,239 --> 00:48:08,359
Speaker 1: You know, for a lot of people, taking themselves out

706
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:10,839
Speaker 1: to debt is not possible even if they did get

707
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of the money or able to like

708
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:14,360
Speaker 1: pay off a bit more per month. You know, this

709
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 1: love interest rates that just like so badly exploitative that

710
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:23,879
Speaker 1: they're basically suits for the rest of lives. Of course,

711
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,840
Speaker 1: we had to have that brief moment of damn, the

712
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 1: system sucks, as is typical on it could happen here.

713
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:37,040
Speaker 1: But I want to shift attention now to another society

714
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:45,200
Speaker 1: and another culture that has approached this human needs and

715
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:51,239
Speaker 1: human psychology and human society thing differently. Right, Um, what's

716
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 1: been coming to a lot more people's attention lateally is

717
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 1: that Abraham Maslow Um he was actually partially inspired to

718
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: develop his theory by his stay with the Six Seek

719
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,959
Speaker 1: of Blackfoot. And I went into some of the details

720
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 1: on the video on my channel, um rethinking master was

721
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 1: hierarchy of needs, psycho bit more in there, but basically, um,

722
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:18,800
Speaker 1: what he discovers, what I get to in that video

723
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 1: is that well, firstly, some cultures of us as being

724
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 1: one self actualized, right, like the six Seek of Blackfoot,

725
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 1: meaning and that's the Blackfoot just for a little bit

726
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:34,719
Speaker 1: of context, or an indigenous people, I think confederation is

727
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 1: how they tend to refer to themselves in like Montana.

728
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 1: I think Idaho. Um yeah, up in Canada. Yeah, I

729
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: kind of like Idaho, Montana and parts of Canada. Um

730
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:55,440
Speaker 1: like that's that's Blackfoot territory. They were also Maslow spent

731
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 1: time with them. L Ron Hubbard lied about having spent

732
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 1: a lot of time with the Blackfoot. So I didn't

733
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 1: know that. I don't know. Yes, there's a lot of

734
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:09,760
Speaker 1: scientology law if you have to catch up on. Yeah,

735
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:13,479
Speaker 1: but um, yeah, so you know, with Maslow's model, self

736
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 1: actualization is essentially, you know, self fulfillment, right, the tendency

737
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 1: for the individual to become more and more what one is,

738
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,440
Speaker 1: and to become everything that one is capable of becoming.

739
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:29,239
Speaker 1: To us, like fulfilling your potential as a person, as

740
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:33,880
Speaker 1: a partner, as a parent, as a talent, as a artist,

741
00:50:33,920 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 1: as a whatever. Just fulfilling your potential as a person. Right.

742
00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 1: But to say that we are born self actualized, um

743
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:45,880
Speaker 1: that freeming will looks too, seeing us each as born

744
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 1: in the world with a spark of divinity, because of

745
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 1: course this is tied into their spirituality. Um, born for

746
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 1: the spark of divinity and with a great purpose embedded

747
00:50:56,120 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 1: in us. And what self actualization is Link two in

748
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 1: these cultures inextricably link to that is is community actualization. Right, So,

749
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:11,400
Speaker 1: community actualization is a concept that places the actualized individual

750
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 1: in the context of community. So instead of just upholding

751
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 1: the individual alone, which Maslow's hierarchy has been critiqued for

752
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 1: sort of doing, community actualization incorporates the web of relationships

753
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 1: that supports each of US's individuals. Basically, it recognizes that

754
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 1: we cannot be self actualized solely as individuals if there's

755
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 1: not like a broader network over a web that is

756
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:43,879
Speaker 1: supporting us. You know, we're not islands standing alone, you know. Yeah, yeah,

757
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 1: we were. We were. We were touching on on on

758
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:50,600
Speaker 1: that point a bit, a bit previous, but less eloquently. Um, yeah,

759
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 1: it is, it is. It's it's much easier to have

760
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 1: the ability to actualize your goals into into actions when

761
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 1: you are less a needed and you have and you

762
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:05,760
Speaker 1: have all these other things around around a community. Yeah exactly.

763
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 1: Is that. I think like the lack of community self

764
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:12,719
Speaker 1: actualization is kind of what we were talking about in

765
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 1: terms of like, yeah, things are things are great for me.

766
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 1: Inasmuch as things are great you know in the system

767
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:23,799
Speaker 1: we live in, but I I don't feel that, you know. Yeah,

768
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 1: you can look outside and you're like everything is actually

769
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:28,560
Speaker 1: really bad. I'm just kind of in my little bubble

770
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:31,280
Speaker 1: and I'm trying to expand my bubble to be around,

771
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 1: you know, and to help more people. But it can

772
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:36,480
Speaker 1: be overwhelming sometimes. Yeah, I mean it's so needs, so

773
00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 1: much one pooson could do. And that's kind of a

774
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 1: point of community, right A community supports our basic needs

775
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:47,719
Speaker 1: and basically equips us to manifest I would poop us.

776
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:52,280
Speaker 1: So it's a community would be there to for example,

777
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:55,440
Speaker 1: and we can get into this a bit more design

778
00:52:55,480 --> 00:53:00,040
Speaker 1: a model of education that supports us in expressing a

779
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 1: unique gifts. Right now, the part of the six philosophy

780
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 1: involves cultural perpetuity, where there's an important consideration of those

781
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,880
Speaker 1: who came before and those who are coming after seven

782
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 1: generations forward and seven generations backward, as I had it

783
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 1: explained to me. So that is something that I think

784
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:23,240
Speaker 1: it would have been useful when it came to discussions

785
00:53:23,360 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 1: of um, you know, climate change, and it's very relevant

786
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:33,280
Speaker 1: now because we are seeing the older generations basically struggling

787
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 1: and being like, you know, um well it's jen Z's problem.

788
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:38,840
Speaker 1: Now you could take care of it. You're in the

789
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:43,239
Speaker 1: future kids, all right, Well that yeah, when they're basically

790
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 1: on the download saying fuck them kids, you know. Yeah,

791
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:50,240
Speaker 1: but can I say that or yes? Yeah, yeah, yeah,

792
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 1: you know you can always say them kids. I say

793
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:58,320
Speaker 1: that to Garrison all the time. All right, yeah yeah.

794
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:02,680
Speaker 1: But speaking of kids, UM, I think we could compare

795
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:07,879
Speaker 1: and contrast basically how childhood is approached in our society

796
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:10,960
Speaker 1: versus how it would be approached and in society that

797
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 1: values community actualization. UM. I mean, and I'm just speaking

798
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 1: from my experience here. Of course, you're free talk about

799
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:24,920
Speaker 1: your own. UM. I from like primary school and stuff.

800
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:30,600
Speaker 1: I remember it's constantly feeling like I had to compete

801
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:34,360
Speaker 1: with my fellow um classmates. I mean, you know, I

802
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 1: was friendly and stuff with everybody and stuff, but since

803
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:41,879
Speaker 1: I was like usually at or close to the top

804
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:45,200
Speaker 1: of my class, I always felt this kind of pressure

805
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:49,359
Speaker 1: to just beat them out and continue to be the

806
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:52,319
Speaker 1: best gifted kid ever. You know. So there was a

807
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:58,920
Speaker 1: sense of like constant competition with others that wasn't really

808
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 1: balanced out with a kind of um collaborative sorts of

809
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:09,840
Speaker 1: approach to like basically trading us from like an early

810
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:15,160
Speaker 1: age too into cooperate and work with people as people

811
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:19,120
Speaker 1: and as comrades, you know, a little comrade is a

812
00:55:19,120 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 1: way way to put it. But yeah, I just remember

813
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:24,760
Speaker 1: there was a sort of sense of sort of atomization

814
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 1: that's undercooded that sort of educational approach. I I feel

815
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:37,880
Speaker 1: like that's pretty yuh universal and a lot of a

816
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 1: lot of parts of our modern world. We definitely really

817
00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:48,479
Speaker 1: embed that sense of competition into very young kids, whether

818
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 1: that being in school or like wherever. Because yeah, that

819
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 1: was that was definitely my experience, even even like in

820
00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 1: private school in Canada a long time ago. And I

821
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 1: know that's that's the thing Fross, you know, across the

822
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 1: ocean as well, on on the other side of the pond. Yeah,

823
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:13,960
Speaker 1: we are back. That doesn't sound like us are we are?

824
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 1: We really back? Sorry it's ten am um, all right.

825
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 1: So when we're to look at like childhood and education

826
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:32,280
Speaker 1: and stuff in society that would value community actualization, Um,

827
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:34,839
Speaker 1: what sort of things do you guys think we would

828
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:38,600
Speaker 1: be seeing in that sort of society. What sort of

829
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 1: approaches do you think would be embedded from an early age.

830
00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:45,520
Speaker 1: I'm trying to put it into words, So kind of

831
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 1: one of the things I'm I'm currently in a living

832
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:53,359
Speaker 1: situation right where I have. I'm working with a group

833
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:55,640
Speaker 1: of people on a chunk of land and so every

834
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:59,080
Speaker 1: week we do projects on it to make it better, um,

835
00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:03,480
Speaker 1: which is tremendous satisfying. And I think in a in

836
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:07,200
Speaker 1: a society where that kind of self actualization like you've

837
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 1: been talking about was more common, kids would feel that

838
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:15,280
Speaker 1: way about doing things, um that improve their community like that,

839
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:17,480
Speaker 1: that that that take care of the people around them,

840
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:21,360
Speaker 1: that make you know, wherever they live a better place

841
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:24,160
Speaker 1: to live, Like that would be that would be in

842
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 1: the same way that like I go out each weekend

843
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:28,520
Speaker 1: thinking that will be a fun thing to do to

844
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:31,120
Speaker 1: like to improve the place that I'm living. I think

845
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:36,440
Speaker 1: that would be kind of, um a common feeling like

846
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:38,200
Speaker 1: that would be a common activity as a kid to

847
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 1: go engage in projects like that. Yeah. And I mean

848
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 1: we already see children doing that, right except they do

849
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:48,320
Speaker 1: it in minecraft. Yes, Yeah, Like the impulse is being

850
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:51,240
Speaker 1: directed somewhere currently. This isn't a thing you have to

851
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:53,840
Speaker 1: This isn't a thing you have to like splice into

852
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:55,840
Speaker 1: kids little brains to make them want to do it.

853
00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:59,600
Speaker 1: Kids love making ship exactly, Like do you give a

854
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:03,400
Speaker 1: child opportunity and sort of facility that like they a

855
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 1: very a lot of them. I can't really generalize because

856
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:08,520
Speaker 1: I know some kids were like, you do what you

857
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:10,720
Speaker 1: have to do. I want to stay in my corner.

858
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:12,680
Speaker 1: But there a lot of kids as well who would

859
00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:15,760
Speaker 1: be like very very willing to be helpful. You know,

860
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:20,720
Speaker 1: they really like they just a door being a helper

861
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:24,000
Speaker 1: and being someone who can support, whether it be in

862
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:27,200
Speaker 1: the kitchen, you know, with like a little broom or whatever, sweeping,

863
00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:29,520
Speaker 1: whatever the case may be. So some my kids don't

864
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:31,400
Speaker 1: want to be part of a community, you know, because

865
00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:35,800
Speaker 1: we are social animals. Um, it's just that right now

866
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:41,280
Speaker 1: it's directed at like minecraft, severs or whatever. Yeah. Yeah,

867
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:43,280
Speaker 1: I think one of the things that I would really

868
00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 1: focus on, because this is just kind of in my experience,

869
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:50,280
Speaker 1: is teaching young kids how to cook, um and then

870
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 1: having them cook or at least help cook food for

871
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 1: other people. I think it's a really great kind of

872
00:58:57,320 --> 00:59:00,400
Speaker 1: skill to learn. But also it me it does this

873
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:02,360
Speaker 1: weird thing to your brain when you do That's like

874
00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:05,120
Speaker 1: you you get very happy when you cook food for

875
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:07,720
Speaker 1: for other people. And I think it's it's a really

876
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:12,280
Speaker 1: good kind of emotional impulse to give kids. It's like, hey,

877
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:14,800
Speaker 1: this is you can make people feel good by doing

878
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:18,560
Speaker 1: things for them, um And because that makes you feel

879
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:20,200
Speaker 1: good and it makes them feel good, and then that

880
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 1: really builds that whole sense of community. So yeah, II

881
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:30,080
Speaker 1: se yeah, yeah, some kids could be ego man like

882
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:33,520
Speaker 1: but like both self lessness, but it also teaches you

883
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:37,280
Speaker 1: to like do stuff for yourself as well. Right, It's

884
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 1: a good skill to be self also be self sustaining.

885
00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:43,439
Speaker 1: So I think that's that's why I really enjoy teaching

886
00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:46,040
Speaker 1: kids cooking. Um I used to I I used to

887
00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:48,920
Speaker 1: be a culinary instructor because I'm really just passionate about

888
00:59:49,560 --> 00:59:54,360
Speaker 1: that specific thing. Yeah, I mean for me perasonally, Um,

889
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:59,000
Speaker 1: I develop an aneurism whenever anyone's in the kitchen with me. Yes,

890
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:02,840
Speaker 1: there's definitely moments where if there's too many people in

891
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:06,400
Speaker 1: a kitchen, that is frustrating. But if if you do

892
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:08,200
Speaker 1: it right, you can get You can get a thirteen

893
01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:12,080
Speaker 1: year old cooking you an entire like really really nice

894
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:15,320
Speaker 1: holiday dinner, um, which is which is what I was

895
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:17,240
Speaker 1: doing when I was thirteen. I was cooking all of

896
01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:20,280
Speaker 1: the holiday dinners for my entire family. Um, because I

897
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 1: just I wanted to learn cooking. So it's it's definitely

898
01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:25,960
Speaker 1: possible if you're a parent and you want less time

899
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:29,880
Speaker 1: in the kitchen. Uh, teacher kid how to cook. Yeah,

900
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:32,080
Speaker 1: I mean I come from a family of child cooks, right.

901
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:35,160
Speaker 1: I remember, Um, this one time I think I was

902
01:00:35,160 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 1: making like a card cake with my mom. Um. But

903
01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 1: I was used to like licking my fingers when you know,

904
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:47,520
Speaker 1: you make that cookie cookie do and stuff. But I

905
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:51,960
Speaker 1: licked my fingers when the when I cracked the egg,

906
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:56,160
Speaker 1: she was like, stuff, you can't do that, you know.

907
01:00:56,960 --> 01:00:58,800
Speaker 1: So I just remember that was one of the experiences

908
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:02,960
Speaker 1: in the kitchen already stood out to me. Lessons lessons

909
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:08,720
Speaker 1: will be learned about, like bacteria, Yeah, you know, it's experience.

910
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:12,160
Speaker 1: Knives you get, get to learn how to use knives,

911
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 1: get to learn about heat. You know, there's a lot

912
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:16,800
Speaker 1: of a lot of good lessons you can learn inside.

913
01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:21,720
Speaker 1: I get firing, safety, chemistry, you know, just stuff all

914
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:26,200
Speaker 1: mixed in there. You know, even math, even absolutely fractions.

915
01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:28,600
Speaker 1: It's one of the only times I use fractions is

916
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:33,040
Speaker 1: in cooking and baking. Yeah, I mean, as embarrassing as

917
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:35,560
Speaker 1: it is. I use Google when I want to confute

918
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:38,960
Speaker 1: measurements still, but I mean it's just there. It's more convenient.

919
01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:41,880
Speaker 1: But yeah, I absolutely agree that example, you know, like

920
01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:44,680
Speaker 1: the use of like cooking lessons and that sort of

921
01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:52,560
Speaker 1: thing too. Support UM to support like kids self actualization.

922
01:01:53,080 --> 01:01:57,120
Speaker 1: I also the community actualization because of my experience, and

923
01:01:57,480 --> 01:02:00,360
Speaker 1: the thing I default too is different versions of like

924
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 1: the youth liberation argument. But because of how people have

925
01:02:03,840 --> 01:02:06,240
Speaker 1: been using that term on Twitter right now, I don't

926
01:02:06,240 --> 01:02:08,680
Speaker 1: want to talk about it because it's been causing a

927
01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:11,320
Speaker 1: lot of like really dumb fighting about what that term

928
01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:13,520
Speaker 1: actually means and who coined it and like that kind

929
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:15,920
Speaker 1: of stuff. But that's kind of where I default to

930
01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:20,160
Speaker 1: in terms of like what self actualization could be in

931
01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:23,360
Speaker 1: a community setting. Youth liberation is one of those things

932
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:28,800
Speaker 1: that I'm really passionate about UM, and I honestly don't

933
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:31,640
Speaker 1: know who coined it or what discussed AFT and about

934
01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:35,400
Speaker 1: it right now, but it definitely UM informs my approach

935
01:02:35,520 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 1: and ends up influence and like a lot of the

936
01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:41,920
Speaker 1: things that I discuss, like when if I talk about

937
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:46,080
Speaker 1: like an issue or whatever UM in society, A lot

938
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:50,160
Speaker 1: of times it really boils down or starts from an

939
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:54,360
Speaker 1: early age. It starts through the education system. Was foster

940
01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:59,040
Speaker 1: there or incubated there. So I think, um, a lot

941
01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:03,000
Speaker 1: more discussions should be happening about, you know, the place

942
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:08,800
Speaker 1: of young people and the education system and stuff um

943
01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:13,040
Speaker 1: alongside of course, while the other struggles and discussions and discourses,

944
01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:15,919
Speaker 1: which struggles we've been happen. Yeah. I'm trying to view

945
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:22,600
Speaker 1: like anarchistic like liberatory frameworks is like trying to achieve

946
01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:26,320
Speaker 1: that self actualization and to some degree like the the

947
01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:28,560
Speaker 1: like a steam level, and then also like the community

948
01:03:28,560 --> 01:03:31,560
Speaker 1: and belonging level. Um, even if you don't have all

949
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:34,600
Speaker 1: of your physical needs met all the time. Is how

950
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:38,120
Speaker 1: these types of frameworks can be can almost just like

951
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:41,720
Speaker 1: jump around that and be like, despite me not having

952
01:03:41,800 --> 01:03:45,800
Speaker 1: all of these base needs met, if I if I

953
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:49,400
Speaker 1: have like a radical model of the world, I can

954
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:52,880
Speaker 1: still try to achieve that type of freedom because I

955
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:56,400
Speaker 1: can work outside the box to get it. Um. Yeah,

956
01:03:56,520 --> 01:03:58,400
Speaker 1: And I think that that that's kind of what I

957
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:00,840
Speaker 1: was I was trying to get at at least on

958
01:04:01,040 --> 01:04:03,320
Speaker 1: you know, like a like a like whether it be

959
01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:05,600
Speaker 1: like a youth lib framework or just like general like

960
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:10,040
Speaker 1: radical anarchism in general. Yeah, and I mean parts of

961
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:14,640
Speaker 1: thinking outside the box involves, you know, looking at other

962
01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:17,280
Speaker 1: people who have thought outside of the box, who have

963
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:24,040
Speaker 1: reinvented and reconsidered and sort of transformed their approach to

964
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:30,000
Speaker 1: things like education and child care and really all the

965
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:32,760
Speaker 1: aspects of society that we take for granted as you know,

966
01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:36,560
Speaker 1: just being a certain way. You know, um, when we

967
01:04:36,560 --> 01:04:40,360
Speaker 1: talk about things like education and childhood in the place

968
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:44,120
Speaker 1: that plays and community actualization, I seem to think a

969
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:45,960
Speaker 1: lot about, you know, all the things we can do

970
01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:48,600
Speaker 1: to not fit into cap into capitalist smooths. You know,

971
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:52,000
Speaker 1: it's really facilitate folks potential, not just really cooking classes

972
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:56,840
Speaker 1: for example, but even through you know, workshops and field trips.

973
01:04:56,880 --> 01:04:58,640
Speaker 1: I mean field trips now are just kind of like

974
01:04:58,720 --> 01:05:02,240
Speaker 1: this thing that you know, kids go to from time

975
01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:04,240
Speaker 1: to time and they have to walk in a single

976
01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:08,360
Speaker 1: fire line and all these different things. But what I

977
01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:12,320
Speaker 1: envision when I think of you know, learning is something

978
01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:17,560
Speaker 1: work into like less restriction to just the four walls

979
01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:21,920
Speaker 1: of a classroom and more the whole world is your classroom.

980
01:05:22,240 --> 01:05:25,200
Speaker 1: You know. The whole world is a place where you know,

981
01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:27,600
Speaker 1: you can explore and you can room and you can

982
01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:34,960
Speaker 1: develop yourself. You know, without all these barriers and controls

983
01:05:35,360 --> 01:05:41,840
Speaker 1: replace on, kids end up suffocating their imagination of what

984
01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:45,000
Speaker 1: things can be. And I mean when you have that

985
01:05:45,080 --> 01:05:48,480
Speaker 1: sort of educational model where you know, the youth are

986
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:53,120
Speaker 1: able to explore different avenues and direct their own education routes,

987
01:05:53,720 --> 01:05:56,120
Speaker 1: you know, you also end up which is what has

988
01:05:56,200 --> 01:06:02,080
Speaker 1: happened in education models that we've seen throughout many different

989
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:06,920
Speaker 1: cultures of the world. You see that it facilitates relationships

990
01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:10,240
Speaker 1: with the community members, right, and everybody benefits because you have,

991
01:06:10,320 --> 01:06:16,640
Speaker 1: for example, becasn't exactly something like apprenticeships, and you have

992
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:20,280
Speaker 1: you know, for example, people getting support from the kids

993
01:06:20,440 --> 01:06:25,440
Speaker 1: in the kitchen or you know, in the workshop or

994
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:29,080
Speaker 1: in library or whatever the case may be. And not

995
01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:31,800
Speaker 1: only the kids about paying their skills, but they also

996
01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:36,360
Speaker 1: developing relationships with different members of the community with different backgrounds,

997
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:41,160
Speaker 1: with different experiences. And it released suits almost as I

998
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:44,840
Speaker 1: see it as a way to God against um this

999
01:06:45,000 --> 01:06:48,520
Speaker 1: sort of style of parenting where that we just kind

1000
01:06:48,520 --> 01:06:52,800
Speaker 1: of seeing popularized lately, where like the child is basically

1001
01:06:52,840 --> 01:06:57,320
Speaker 1: the exclusive property of the parents and you can't tell

1002
01:06:57,360 --> 01:07:00,920
Speaker 1: anybody how to raise their child and the parent alwaysnews

1003
01:07:00,920 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 1: best in that kind of approach. I think it's a

1004
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:06,440
Speaker 1: good and to do to that because the child being

1005
01:07:06,520 --> 01:07:11,240
Speaker 1: exposed to a lot more of life and of people. Um.

1006
01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:15,600
Speaker 1: I think that, to me, um is the sort of

1007
01:07:15,640 --> 01:07:21,160
Speaker 1: youth liberation route that I see developing. It requires, of course,

1008
01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:29,400
Speaker 1: total transmission, but you know, no proposal really be approach

1009
01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:33,560
Speaker 1: and isolation. Yeah, and it's it's easier to achieve when

1010
01:07:33,560 --> 01:07:36,720
Speaker 1: you're around other right, It's it's easily once if if

1011
01:07:36,760 --> 01:07:39,080
Speaker 1: you are already in a community where these things can

1012
01:07:39,080 --> 01:07:41,960
Speaker 1: be fostered, then it's a lot you know, it's a

1013
01:07:41,960 --> 01:07:46,360
Speaker 1: lot less of a lofty goal. Yeah, I think that

1014
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:49,120
Speaker 1: there's a kind of interesting I don't know if case

1015
01:07:49,120 --> 01:07:51,560
Speaker 1: studies the right word, but there's part of Italy that

1016
01:07:52,960 --> 01:07:57,480
Speaker 1: had a really really long running like anarchist education experiment

1017
01:07:57,640 --> 01:07:59,960
Speaker 1: and so they're basically able to reform local schools is

1018
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:04,240
Speaker 1: TIMS and and it worked. But you know, and they

1019
01:08:04,320 --> 01:08:06,280
Speaker 1: produced a bunch of really good schools, and you know,

1020
01:08:06,360 --> 01:08:09,400
Speaker 1: the schools are based on sort of like cooperative learning etcetera, etcetera.

1021
01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:11,200
Speaker 1: And you know, I mean the model still exists today,

1022
01:08:11,240 --> 01:08:13,720
Speaker 1: but and you know it's like, yeah, they made some

1023
01:08:13,760 --> 01:08:17,040
Speaker 1: of the best schools in Europe, but the society around

1024
01:08:17,120 --> 01:08:20,720
Speaker 1: them didn't change, and so sort of bizarrely, they ended

1025
01:08:20,800 --> 01:08:25,160
Speaker 1: up making these schools that like produced you know, they're

1026
01:08:25,160 --> 01:08:27,240
Speaker 1: they're very good schools. They produced extremely good students, but

1027
01:08:27,280 --> 01:08:31,479
Speaker 1: then they also like produced an extremely you know, well

1028
01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:36,040
Speaker 1: educated and good like capitalist cadre basically. And so I

1029
01:08:36,040 --> 01:08:38,040
Speaker 1: think I think there's a sort of you know, if

1030
01:08:38,080 --> 01:08:40,719
Speaker 1: if we go back to sort of the community aspect

1031
01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:43,280
Speaker 1: of this is like, yeah, there's there's a set to

1032
01:08:43,320 --> 01:08:48,960
Speaker 1: which even even if you have you know, you get

1033
01:08:49,000 --> 01:08:51,160
Speaker 1: some form of self actualization, you get some form of

1034
01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:54,320
Speaker 1: sort of you know, community in cooperative like education for

1035
01:08:54,400 --> 01:08:57,720
Speaker 1: children and stuff like that, the whole society has to

1036
01:08:57,760 --> 01:08:59,920
Speaker 1: move with it or otherwise you just wind up sort

1037
01:08:59,920 --> 01:09:04,840
Speaker 1: of feeding the beast more effectively. Yeah, yeah, I mean

1038
01:09:04,840 --> 01:09:07,080
Speaker 1: that is that you you also see that kind of

1039
01:09:07,160 --> 01:09:10,559
Speaker 1: problem with like the we work guys, right, the Adam

1040
01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:14,560
Speaker 1: Newman and and and uh, the two co founders of

1041
01:09:14,680 --> 01:09:17,599
Speaker 1: that came out of an Adams case, a kibbutz in Israel,

1042
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:20,600
Speaker 1: which you know, started with from kind of socialist foundations,

1043
01:09:21,240 --> 01:09:23,080
Speaker 1: and the other founder had grown up in like a

1044
01:09:23,120 --> 01:09:26,120
Speaker 1: commune in rural or again, uh, and they both wound

1045
01:09:26,200 --> 01:09:29,760
Speaker 1: up making like this ultra capitalist real estate company. So yeah,

1046
01:09:29,800 --> 01:09:33,800
Speaker 1: if you it's it's you know, there's a lot that's said,

1047
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:36,080
Speaker 1: and there's there's a lot of value and kind of

1048
01:09:36,080 --> 01:09:40,880
Speaker 1: like carving out sections of culture for the things you

1049
01:09:40,920 --> 01:09:44,439
Speaker 1: believe in to try to, um, get shelter from the storm.

1050
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:47,920
Speaker 1: But yeah, as you were kind of noting, Chris, um,

1051
01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:50,599
Speaker 1: it does. It does also just wind up kind of

1052
01:09:51,439 --> 01:09:56,080
Speaker 1: reinforcing the dominant social system. Um. If there's not a

1053
01:09:56,200 --> 01:10:00,759
Speaker 1: kind of more basic upheaval of the way things work. Yeah,

1054
01:10:01,080 --> 01:10:04,479
Speaker 1: if there's no you know, political philosophy and the goodness

1055
01:10:04,479 --> 01:10:08,080
Speaker 1: and there's no connection with you know, broader social movements

1056
01:10:08,120 --> 01:10:12,360
Speaker 1: and sort of confederation with other projects, you know, it

1057
01:10:12,360 --> 01:10:17,200
Speaker 1: could very easily be coopted you know, in isolation. Yeah,

1058
01:10:17,200 --> 01:10:18,840
Speaker 1: I guess I guess that's you know, like that That's

1059
01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:21,360
Speaker 1: what happened to self actualization as a concept for the

1060
01:10:21,400 --> 01:10:24,920
Speaker 1: most part, is that it got taken over by kind

1061
01:10:24,920 --> 01:10:34,120
Speaker 1: of weird grifters and yeah, like self care. Yeah, yeah,

1062
01:10:34,479 --> 01:10:37,720
Speaker 1: and take these concepts and there's sort of twisted and

1063
01:10:38,040 --> 01:10:43,280
Speaker 1: transformed into um, you know, capitalists ends. It's even something

1064
01:10:43,320 --> 01:10:49,679
Speaker 1: like um like with there's been some interesting discussions happening

1065
01:10:49,720 --> 01:10:55,800
Speaker 1: surrounding like luxury and what luxury means around sitting within

1066
01:10:55,880 --> 01:11:02,800
Speaker 1: certain circles on Twitter UM and Kim Kimberly Foster from

1067
01:11:02,880 --> 01:11:07,600
Speaker 1: for Harriott excellent YouTube channel UM. She mentioned that to

1068
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:11,720
Speaker 1: her at least is long but really good video. She

1069
01:11:11,760 --> 01:11:14,920
Speaker 1: spoke about how lux read to her is basically, UM,

1070
01:11:14,960 --> 01:11:18,920
Speaker 1: you know, finding the ability to rest where you need

1071
01:11:18,960 --> 01:11:23,760
Speaker 1: to rest and to be able to be supported. UM.

1072
01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:29,840
Speaker 1: Whereas luxury now, but luxury as quite popular understanding is

1073
01:11:29,880 --> 01:11:35,080
Speaker 1: more so about consumption and consumerism. So even when you

1074
01:11:35,120 --> 01:11:40,479
Speaker 1: have something where like and this is specific to um,

1075
01:11:40,520 --> 01:11:42,840
Speaker 1: the black experience of course, because for a long time,

1076
01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:47,240
Speaker 1: you know, black women have been expected to, like um,

1077
01:11:47,360 --> 01:11:51,439
Speaker 1: toil and labor and support not only the communities but

1078
01:11:51,600 --> 01:11:55,280
Speaker 1: also engineer as slavery also you know, their white masters

1079
01:11:55,280 --> 01:11:58,519
Speaker 1: and that kind of thing. Um. There's there was a

1080
01:11:58,560 --> 01:12:01,920
Speaker 1: push for the Black women luxury movement to sort of

1081
01:12:02,360 --> 01:12:07,720
Speaker 1: reclaim you know, a space for black women to just

1082
01:12:08,360 --> 01:12:11,040
Speaker 1: be able to enjoy themselves and you know, be themselves.

1083
01:12:11,640 --> 01:12:16,240
Speaker 1: But that quickly became something it's just like you know,

1084
01:12:16,280 --> 01:12:21,800
Speaker 1: just get the bag, um. Just the sort of hyper capitalists,

1085
01:12:21,840 --> 01:12:27,080
Speaker 1: hyper consumerist, bougie kind of approach to luxury, where the

1086
01:12:27,080 --> 01:12:30,759
Speaker 1: original route to the movement, which was about finding rest,

1087
01:12:31,280 --> 01:12:33,400
Speaker 1: was sort of lost. And I mean that's a bit

1088
01:12:33,400 --> 01:12:35,519
Speaker 1: of a tangent. So I'll try to connect that back

1089
01:12:35,560 --> 01:12:37,960
Speaker 1: to what we're saying. Um, I think when it comes

1090
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:43,080
Speaker 1: to things like rest and the ability to rest, um,

1091
01:12:43,120 --> 01:12:50,280
Speaker 1: I think that that can only really be found in community.

1092
01:12:51,439 --> 01:12:55,240
Speaker 1: And if there's a lack of commune community support to

1093
01:12:55,640 --> 01:12:57,840
Speaker 1: you know, pick up the slack when you need to

1094
01:12:57,880 --> 01:12:59,840
Speaker 1: rest and you need to revive yourself and you just

1095
01:13:00,120 --> 01:13:06,600
Speaker 1: to recharge. UM. Barring that, of course, reshipple can pay

1096
01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:09,200
Speaker 1: for a sort of a full community in a sense

1097
01:13:09,240 --> 01:13:12,280
Speaker 1: of having you know, nannies and meads and butlers and

1098
01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:15,840
Speaker 1: tutors and all these people to basically support their lifestyles

1099
01:13:15,960 --> 01:13:21,160
Speaker 1: and support their freedom. But more people lack that. And

1100
01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:27,960
Speaker 1: so I think protostyph actualization as you're mentioning earlier, UM,

1101
01:13:28,120 --> 01:13:33,439
Speaker 1: it's ability to rest, and I see that as linked

1102
01:13:33,479 --> 01:13:39,559
Speaker 1: with community. Yeah, I think that definitely ties into our

1103
01:13:39,600 --> 01:13:44,400
Speaker 1: recent discussions on anti work and how anti work is

1104
01:13:44,439 --> 01:13:47,960
Speaker 1: a lot more feasible if you are in a community

1105
01:13:48,040 --> 01:13:50,960
Speaker 1: support like network and right and you have people to

1106
01:13:51,120 --> 01:13:55,120
Speaker 1: rely on um and definitely like you know, self actualization

1107
01:13:55,160 --> 01:13:59,880
Speaker 1: as the ability to like to just rest when you

1108
01:14:00,040 --> 01:14:04,040
Speaker 1: want to. It's a very uh, it's a very powerful

1109
01:14:04,560 --> 01:14:07,800
Speaker 1: thing and very enticing, and that definitely plays into the

1110
01:14:07,840 --> 01:14:14,200
Speaker 1: whole like anti work like idea. I guess yeah. I

1111
01:14:14,200 --> 01:14:17,439
Speaker 1: mean to connect the anti work thing to just general

1112
01:14:18,200 --> 01:14:22,000
Speaker 1: you know, unonization and striking efforts. Right Like I was

1113
01:14:22,040 --> 01:14:27,360
Speaker 1: seeing people calling for a general strike the other day, um,

1114
01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:30,680
Speaker 1: as if we haven't learned a lesson, but they were

1115
01:14:30,720 --> 01:14:34,519
Speaker 1: calling for that, But what they were not realizing was

1116
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:38,400
Speaker 1: that without these structures in place to support striking efforts,

1117
01:14:39,360 --> 01:14:41,360
Speaker 1: it's not gonna be enough. You know, if people cannot

1118
01:14:41,439 --> 01:14:47,600
Speaker 1: support themselves and their families, the strike cannot last. You

1119
01:14:47,600 --> 01:14:50,840
Speaker 1: don't surely with this community and the community coming together

1120
01:14:50,920 --> 01:14:54,439
Speaker 1: to support people and they you know, not just fight

1121
01:14:54,479 --> 01:14:58,479
Speaker 1: for the rights in the striking and unization context, but

1122
01:14:58,560 --> 01:15:02,360
Speaker 1: also you know, to be able to find leisure, to

1123
01:15:02,400 --> 01:15:05,200
Speaker 1: find rest, as with the you know, anti work discussion,

1124
01:15:06,160 --> 01:15:09,320
Speaker 1: and to sort of turn this to a discussion on

1125
01:15:10,200 --> 01:15:14,560
Speaker 1: organizing more generally. Um, you know, we are, at the

1126
01:15:14,640 --> 01:15:21,519
Speaker 1: end of the day, a very communal ape and if

1127
01:15:21,520 --> 01:15:25,839
Speaker 1: we were to just focus on ourselves as individuals. Um.

1128
01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:31,479
Speaker 1: I think as capitalism in its anti social nature expects

1129
01:15:31,560 --> 01:15:35,000
Speaker 1: us too, I think we would all suffer as a result.

1130
01:15:35,479 --> 01:15:38,759
Speaker 1: You know, our google as people, as any one person

1131
01:15:39,680 --> 01:15:42,400
Speaker 1: should be not just to you know, ult ourselves, but

1132
01:15:42,479 --> 01:15:48,000
Speaker 1: also to enrich the worlds of those around us and

1133
01:15:48,400 --> 01:15:55,800
Speaker 1: to cultivate the community that as we support they you know,

1134
01:15:56,000 --> 01:15:59,720
Speaker 1: will support us. And I mean as we prefigure this

1135
01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:06,080
Speaker 1: out of you know, culture of support, of you know,

1136
01:16:07,520 --> 01:16:14,320
Speaker 1: care and of empathy and that sort of thing. Um,

1137
01:16:14,360 --> 01:16:17,640
Speaker 1: I think our organizing efforts would as a results be

1138
01:16:17,680 --> 01:16:21,760
Speaker 1: a lot more powerful, be a lot more potent, um,

1139
01:16:21,880 --> 01:16:25,280
Speaker 1: be a lot more enriching, and a lot more imaginative.

1140
01:16:28,280 --> 01:16:34,280
Speaker 1: So unless any any of you have anything else to see, um,

1141
01:16:34,320 --> 01:16:42,439
Speaker 1: to sort of bring this to a close, um, I

1142
01:16:42,520 --> 01:16:45,679
Speaker 1: just want to leave, um, leave us with some food

1143
01:16:45,720 --> 01:16:48,799
Speaker 1: for thought in terms of how we can incorporate community

1144
01:16:48,800 --> 01:16:52,400
Speaker 1: actualization in action, right Because it's one thing to say,

1145
01:16:52,640 --> 01:16:54,880
Speaker 1: what will be wonderful to have a community to support

1146
01:16:55,000 --> 01:16:58,360
Speaker 1: you in that kind of thing, But you know, um,

1147
01:16:58,560 --> 01:17:03,720
Speaker 1: how do people a pretty isolated and stuff right now? Um?

1148
01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:06,640
Speaker 1: So I guess I actually put it into sort of

1149
01:17:08,200 --> 01:17:15,720
Speaker 1: five stage kind of approach, starting with firstly facilitating collective

1150
01:17:15,720 --> 01:17:20,320
Speaker 1: belonging among diverse groups. Right, so we want to look

1151
01:17:20,360 --> 01:17:26,000
Speaker 1: at bringing people together. Obviously they would have different backgrounds

1152
01:17:26,120 --> 01:17:34,280
Speaker 1: and different needs, different ones, different personalities. But bring people together, um,

1153
01:17:34,400 --> 01:17:38,800
Speaker 1: whether it be at work or on the block, or

1154
01:17:40,240 --> 01:17:42,880
Speaker 1: at school or whatever the case be, just for a

1155
01:17:42,880 --> 01:17:48,439
Speaker 1: cookote or for align or any kind of party or interaction. Obviously,

1156
01:17:49,479 --> 01:17:51,640
Speaker 1: depending on where you are that that may not be

1157
01:17:51,720 --> 01:17:56,920
Speaker 1: the safest thing to do, um, considering COVID and everything.

1158
01:17:57,360 --> 01:18:02,640
Speaker 1: But just bring people together. Not even necessary to proselytize

1159
01:18:02,800 --> 01:18:06,760
Speaker 1: them about anarchism or socialism or whatever. But at the

1160
01:18:06,840 --> 01:18:12,680
Speaker 1: very least start connecting the nodes and start connecting the

1161
01:18:12,880 --> 01:18:16,880
Speaker 1: different parts that can eventually come together to become something greater,

1162
01:18:17,120 --> 01:18:18,720
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, you don't need to wait for

1163
01:18:19,320 --> 01:18:22,600
Speaker 1: a calamity. There's onything to happen. But of course we

1164
01:18:22,640 --> 01:18:26,480
Speaker 1: have seen as well where natural disasters have broad communities

1165
01:18:26,880 --> 01:18:31,519
Speaker 1: together that wouldn't together before. Um. I think, however, it

1166
01:18:31,560 --> 01:18:33,280
Speaker 1: would be better to like not wait for that kind

1167
01:18:33,280 --> 01:18:36,160
Speaker 1: of thing to happen, and to just you know, bring

1168
01:18:36,160 --> 01:18:40,679
Speaker 1: people together from now, start some conversations, get things going right,

1169
01:18:40,720 --> 01:18:44,600
Speaker 1: and then from there you want to be facilitating solidarity

1170
01:18:44,960 --> 01:18:48,799
Speaker 1: in struggle. Right, So whether it be in the solidarity

1171
01:18:48,840 --> 01:18:51,040
Speaker 1: is a bit of a buzz would now or at

1172
01:18:51,120 --> 01:18:56,120
Speaker 1: least it become a buzz would. But I think whether

1173
01:18:56,160 --> 01:19:00,719
Speaker 1: it be with disaster rely funds or so arity, strikes

1174
01:19:00,760 --> 01:19:04,960
Speaker 1: and protests, or you know, with basic mutually support, you know,

1175
01:19:05,000 --> 01:19:11,200
Speaker 1: whether it's material or emotional solidarity in struggle, I think

1176
01:19:11,280 --> 01:19:15,400
Speaker 1: that is another crucial part in you know, building community

1177
01:19:15,640 --> 01:19:20,559
Speaker 1: and incorporating eventually community actualization, because what that does is

1178
01:19:20,600 --> 01:19:24,600
Speaker 1: it shows others that I have your back and you know,

1179
01:19:25,360 --> 01:19:27,880
Speaker 1: others able to see that you know, they can have

1180
01:19:27,920 --> 01:19:31,920
Speaker 1: mine as well. Um, it helps to build that sense

1181
01:19:31,920 --> 01:19:35,479
Speaker 1: of trust you also want to sort of cultivated probably

1182
01:19:35,520 --> 01:19:37,720
Speaker 1: a sense of community pride and a sense of being

1183
01:19:37,760 --> 01:19:40,800
Speaker 1: able to rely on community networks. You know, we spoke

1184
01:19:40,840 --> 01:19:46,120
Speaker 1: about mutulate networks, but also things like UM skill shares

1185
01:19:46,320 --> 01:19:51,439
Speaker 1: or workshops, so um material support. You know, if somebody

1186
01:19:51,600 --> 01:19:54,479
Speaker 1: needs food, being able to support for them to know

1187
01:19:55,000 --> 01:19:58,360
Speaker 1: that they have people they can go to to support

1188
01:19:58,400 --> 01:20:01,240
Speaker 1: them in a time of need, that is powerful. You know,

1189
01:20:01,280 --> 01:20:04,479
Speaker 1: not maning people forget that. Not maning people forget the

1190
01:20:04,520 --> 01:20:08,880
Speaker 1: time that they were at their most dire point, and

1191
01:20:09,240 --> 01:20:12,479
Speaker 1: you know, the community stepped up to support them. You know,

1192
01:20:13,000 --> 01:20:18,640
Speaker 1: if you want to see UH insurrection in our lifetimes, Um,

1193
01:20:18,760 --> 01:20:22,479
Speaker 1: you don't start guns blazing. You know, you start with

1194
01:20:23,720 --> 01:20:27,120
Speaker 1: a creative food, You start with a help in hand,

1195
01:20:28,080 --> 01:20:33,240
Speaker 1: You start with money if people need it, um. And

1196
01:20:33,280 --> 01:20:36,400
Speaker 1: then from there, you know, you get into the realm

1197
01:20:36,439 --> 01:20:41,840
Speaker 1: of community achievements, where your community is collectively able to

1198
01:20:41,840 --> 01:20:45,680
Speaker 1: celebrate the things that we have accomplished together. You know,

1199
01:20:45,720 --> 01:20:51,479
Speaker 1: whether it be establishing community garden that is able to

1200
01:20:51,479 --> 01:20:56,960
Speaker 1: supplement people's um fresh produce supply, or whether it be

1201
01:20:57,040 --> 01:21:01,519
Speaker 1: that you know, community has come together and they've fixed

1202
01:21:02,439 --> 01:21:05,800
Speaker 1: something that was broken on the street, or even that

1203
01:21:05,840 --> 01:21:09,200
Speaker 1: they've come together and we're able to train people with

1204
01:21:09,280 --> 01:21:13,160
Speaker 1: like some really helpful skills where they're now able to

1205
01:21:13,479 --> 01:21:17,479
Speaker 1: support themselves and bring other things to team as well.

1206
01:21:18,160 --> 01:21:22,480
Speaker 1: And then from there, I think that sort of approach

1207
01:21:22,720 --> 01:21:31,519
Speaker 1: would foster fulfillment in community and the figures immunity actualization. Yeah,

1208
01:21:31,560 --> 01:21:34,120
Speaker 1: I mean, and this is this is all. It's a

1209
01:21:34,120 --> 01:21:37,040
Speaker 1: big topic, UM, And it's a much bigger topic than

1210
01:21:37,120 --> 01:21:40,080
Speaker 1: just like what are what do you what changes do

1211
01:21:40,120 --> 01:21:42,080
Speaker 1: you want to make around the edges? Like what things

1212
01:21:42,080 --> 01:21:45,160
Speaker 1: should people advocate for or even just like advocating that

1213
01:21:45,160 --> 01:21:48,439
Speaker 1: that the system be torn down, like as as was

1214
01:21:48,520 --> 01:21:51,000
Speaker 1: kind of evident when you asked, how could we build

1215
01:21:53,560 --> 01:21:59,000
Speaker 1: a community in which like kids feel more self actualization

1216
01:21:59,080 --> 01:22:02,240
Speaker 1: from engaging in the community. Um, And there was that

1217
01:22:02,320 --> 01:22:05,559
Speaker 1: kind of blank moment, the when you actually talking talk

1218
01:22:05,600 --> 01:22:12,599
Speaker 1: about like reconfiguring society at such a fundamental level. Um.

1219
01:22:12,600 --> 01:22:16,519
Speaker 1: It's it's a big topic. Um. And it's it's one

1220
01:22:16,560 --> 01:22:19,880
Speaker 1: that I think it's important to introduce to people the

1221
01:22:19,960 --> 01:22:23,040
Speaker 1: idea that like, hey, we really have to be we

1222
01:22:23,160 --> 01:22:25,360
Speaker 1: really got to figure this this out. This is this

1223
01:22:25,439 --> 01:22:29,920
Speaker 1: is important to like everything we we say we believe. Um.

1224
01:22:29,960 --> 01:22:33,840
Speaker 1: Answering this question is going to be key. Uh and

1225
01:22:34,640 --> 01:22:37,880
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a tough one. UM. So I don't know.

1226
01:22:37,920 --> 01:22:42,439
Speaker 1: I think sometimes uh people come into episodes we do

1227
01:22:42,520 --> 01:22:44,840
Speaker 1: on stuff like this like looking for Okay, well, how

1228
01:22:44,960 --> 01:22:47,559
Speaker 1: how are you what's your suggestion for how to do that?

1229
01:22:48,280 --> 01:22:52,479
Speaker 1: And at the moment, like I agree with the how

1230
01:22:52,520 --> 01:22:58,080
Speaker 1: imperative this is? Um, But in terms of actionable stuff, it's, um,

1231
01:22:58,200 --> 01:23:01,719
Speaker 1: this is a big open ended question in my head.

1232
01:23:05,400 --> 01:23:07,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I think I think Andrew laid out a

1233
01:23:07,240 --> 01:23:09,760
Speaker 1: lot of the stuff that we've we've talked about both,

1234
01:23:09,800 --> 01:23:12,600
Speaker 1: like you know, with within our kind of own community

1235
01:23:12,640 --> 01:23:15,559
Speaker 1: groups in terms of the things in terms of like

1236
01:23:15,560 --> 01:23:17,600
Speaker 1: like you know, like connecting nodes and all like the

1237
01:23:17,800 --> 01:23:21,160
Speaker 1: steps that we can do to have there be like

1238
01:23:21,520 --> 01:23:25,040
Speaker 1: more like more connecting branches of the tree and how

1239
01:23:25,080 --> 01:23:28,320
Speaker 1: to strengthen those. I think that it's it's a good Yeah.

1240
01:23:28,360 --> 01:23:30,559
Speaker 1: It's like we can't we don't know what your community

1241
01:23:30,600 --> 01:23:33,320
Speaker 1: is like or what your what your situation is. All

1242
01:23:33,360 --> 01:23:36,840
Speaker 1: we can really say is here's the broad things that

1243
01:23:36,840 --> 01:23:39,400
Speaker 1: that you can try or have worked for other people

1244
01:23:39,439 --> 01:23:41,760
Speaker 1: in the past, and then based on what your situation is,

1245
01:23:41,800 --> 01:23:50,240
Speaker 1: you can apply those plug plugables. Yeah. St Andrew, Yes,

1246
01:23:50,320 --> 01:23:52,759
Speaker 1: of course. Um well you can follow me on Twitter

1247
01:23:53,080 --> 01:23:56,719
Speaker 1: at a discore scene. True and of course on YouTube

1248
01:23:56,800 --> 01:24:00,680
Speaker 1: st Andrew's um my stuff. You know, I have the

1249
01:24:00,840 --> 01:24:05,519
Speaker 1: video on rethinking master was Hierarchy of needs, um on

1250
01:24:05,680 --> 01:24:10,960
Speaker 1: some other on practice see things as well. Check it out,

1251
01:24:11,520 --> 01:24:17,160
Speaker 1: check it out. Um and uh uh stay thinking about stuff.

1252
01:24:18,120 --> 01:24:34,280
Speaker 1: It's thinking is good. Yeah, thinking is good. Welcome that

1253
01:24:34,360 --> 01:24:38,479
Speaker 1: could happen here a podcast about things falling apart and

1254
01:24:38,640 --> 01:24:40,280
Speaker 1: sort of how you can put them back together. This

1255
01:24:40,360 --> 01:24:43,800
Speaker 1: is again another mostly things fall apart episode. UM Here

1256
01:24:43,840 --> 01:24:47,719
Speaker 1: with Me is Garrison. Hello, Hello, and joining us today

1257
01:24:47,760 --> 01:24:51,599
Speaker 1: to talk about well, a pretty wide range of things,

1258
01:24:51,680 --> 01:24:55,400
Speaker 1: but about the drug war in Mexico, about primorialitaries, and

1259
01:24:56,400 --> 01:24:58,320
Speaker 1: I guess also I guess about the Narco state. Is

1260
01:24:58,320 --> 01:25:00,880
Speaker 1: Alex Vinia, who is in a socially fessor of history

1261
01:25:00,920 --> 01:25:04,360
Speaker 1: at Arizona'stat University and has written several very very good

1262
01:25:04,439 --> 01:25:06,920
Speaker 1: articles that I've read recently. Um, Alex, how are you

1263
01:25:06,960 --> 01:25:10,920
Speaker 1: doing doing great? Thank you so much for having me on. Yeah,

1264
01:25:10,960 --> 01:25:14,720
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you for joining us. UM. So I

1265
01:25:14,760 --> 01:25:19,040
Speaker 1: wanted to start by talking about an article that you

1266
01:25:19,600 --> 01:25:25,839
Speaker 1: has come out fairly recently, uh, that is about essentially

1267
01:25:25,880 --> 01:25:31,240
Speaker 1: the transition particularly in Guerrero from I guess the sort

1268
01:25:31,280 --> 01:25:37,360
Speaker 1: of sixties seventies dirty war in Mexico two, the drug war,

1269
01:25:37,560 --> 01:25:41,360
Speaker 1: and I guess I wanted to start from because I

1270
01:25:41,479 --> 01:25:44,160
Speaker 1: don't I don't think it's a issue that's particularly well known. UM.

1271
01:25:44,200 --> 01:25:48,760
Speaker 1: I want to, I guess, start with sort of an

1272
01:25:48,800 --> 01:25:51,120
Speaker 1: overview of how we got into this sort of dirty

1273
01:25:51,120 --> 01:25:53,720
Speaker 1: war in Mexico in the sixties, because I think I

1274
01:25:53,760 --> 01:25:55,479
Speaker 1: don't know, like I think, if anyone, if people know

1275
01:25:55,880 --> 01:25:58,559
Speaker 1: stuff about this, it tends to be the very dramatic

1276
01:25:58,720 --> 01:26:03,800
Speaker 1: sort of like massacre in eight but it's it went

1277
01:26:03,800 --> 01:26:05,519
Speaker 1: on for longer than that and as a sort of

1278
01:26:05,520 --> 01:26:09,000
Speaker 1: deeper history. So can you bring us into that, Yeah,

1279
01:26:09,040 --> 01:26:13,360
Speaker 1: for sure. So I'll start off by saying that generally,

1280
01:26:13,520 --> 01:26:16,360
Speaker 1: if when most people think about dirty wars and and

1281
01:26:16,360 --> 01:26:19,320
Speaker 1: and Cold War Latin America, Mexico is probably the last

1282
01:26:19,320 --> 01:26:21,519
Speaker 1: country that they think of having one, right, Like, there's

1283
01:26:21,520 --> 01:26:26,000
Speaker 1: a certain exceptionalism that Mexico has enjoyed until relatively recent

1284
01:26:27,040 --> 01:26:32,559
Speaker 1: and relatively recently um amongst academics and especially historians right

1285
01:26:32,600 --> 01:26:35,800
Speaker 1: where we're in the last ten twenty years, we started

1286
01:26:35,840 --> 01:26:39,000
Speaker 1: to uncover Mexico's own version of a dirty war that

1287
01:26:39,080 --> 01:26:45,760
Speaker 1: we are more familiar with in other places like Chile, Argentina, Brazil, etcetera. Um,

1288
01:26:45,960 --> 01:26:48,360
Speaker 1: Mexico's dirty war though, and if people know a little

1289
01:26:48,360 --> 01:26:50,240
Speaker 1: bit about this period, like as you mentioned, right, they

1290
01:26:50,280 --> 01:26:52,880
Speaker 1: know about the infamous student massacre that the local in

1291
01:26:52,960 --> 01:26:57,840
Speaker 1: October two. But you know, my my research focuses on

1292
01:26:57,840 --> 01:27:00,120
Speaker 1: on this the southern state of Guerrero. It's on the

1293
01:27:00,120 --> 01:27:03,840
Speaker 1: Pacific coast. It's made famous by the resort city of Akapunco.

1294
01:27:04,439 --> 01:27:07,160
Speaker 1: And I wrote a book in two published a book

1295
01:27:07,160 --> 01:27:10,880
Speaker 1: in fourteen that really traced the emergence of armed resistance

1296
01:27:10,920 --> 01:27:13,560
Speaker 1: in the state of Guerrero during the nineteen sixties and seventies,

1297
01:27:13,960 --> 01:27:16,960
Speaker 1: And that was my entrance into this idea of of

1298
01:27:17,000 --> 01:27:21,440
Speaker 1: a Mexican dirty war, of the Mexican state practicing systematic

1299
01:27:21,479 --> 01:27:26,200
Speaker 1: state terrorism against political dissidents and in my case, armed

1300
01:27:26,240 --> 01:27:30,760
Speaker 1: guerilla dissidents who enjoyed the backing of dozens of rural communities,

1301
01:27:31,240 --> 01:27:34,559
Speaker 1: um and even urban poor working class neighborhoods in places

1302
01:27:34,560 --> 01:27:38,200
Speaker 1: like in the late sixties and in early nineteen seventies.

1303
01:27:38,960 --> 01:27:41,439
Speaker 1: That's a very regional story, right. That's another thing that

1304
01:27:41,479 --> 01:27:43,960
Speaker 1: kind of distinguishes the Mexican Dirty War from from other

1305
01:27:44,000 --> 01:27:48,560
Speaker 1: Latin American cases is that the dirty war was localized

1306
01:27:48,640 --> 01:27:51,960
Speaker 1: to a few major cities and then to two very

1307
01:27:51,960 --> 01:27:57,360
Speaker 1: specific locales in the countryside, Geretro being the most bloody theater. Um.

1308
01:27:57,760 --> 01:28:01,000
Speaker 1: The way that these girla movements emerged, they really began

1309
01:28:01,080 --> 01:28:05,320
Speaker 1: as these popular, civic minded social movements in the late fifties,

1310
01:28:05,320 --> 01:28:09,360
Speaker 1: early nineteen sixties, and and they protested things like political

1311
01:28:09,360 --> 01:28:13,960
Speaker 1: authoritarianism and economic injustice, but they did so essentially within

1312
01:28:14,040 --> 01:28:17,680
Speaker 1: the confines of the Mexican Constitution. They followed the law. Um.

1313
01:28:17,720 --> 01:28:21,280
Speaker 1: You know, Mexico has the the you know that that

1314
01:28:21,320 --> 01:28:23,559
Speaker 1: the characteristic in Latin America of having the first great

1315
01:28:23,600 --> 01:28:27,080
Speaker 1: social revolution of the twentieth century. Um, you do have

1316
01:28:27,160 --> 01:28:30,280
Speaker 1: a post revolutionary government that emerges from the nineteen nineteeent

1317
01:28:30,320 --> 01:28:33,879
Speaker 1: revolution that has to pay list service to the radical traditions,

1318
01:28:33,880 --> 01:28:36,840
Speaker 1: to the revolutionary traditions that came out of that that

1319
01:28:36,840 --> 01:28:40,120
Speaker 1: that movement, and for that reason, the Mexican Constitution that

1320
01:28:40,320 --> 01:28:42,920
Speaker 1: was passed in nineteen seventeen in its time was the

1321
01:28:42,920 --> 01:28:47,559
Speaker 1: most radical social democratic even constitution in the Western hemisphere. UM.

1322
01:28:47,680 --> 01:28:50,960
Speaker 1: And you know, the peasant communities compassing the communities in

1323
01:28:50,960 --> 01:28:53,680
Speaker 1: the state of believed the letter of the law. So

1324
01:28:53,680 --> 01:28:58,080
Speaker 1: when they started to protest, you know, an authoritarian state governors, um,

1325
01:28:58,240 --> 01:29:01,760
Speaker 1: a police violence, army violence, its economic injustice. In the sixties,

1326
01:29:02,040 --> 01:29:04,559
Speaker 1: they followed the rules and they followed the laws, and

1327
01:29:04,600 --> 01:29:07,479
Speaker 1: each time that they did so, they experienced pretty horrific

1328
01:29:07,520 --> 01:29:10,439
Speaker 1: instances of both state violence exercised by the military and

1329
01:29:10,479 --> 01:29:13,479
Speaker 1: the police, but also everyday forms of violence practiced by

1330
01:29:13,520 --> 01:29:15,839
Speaker 1: you know, gun slingers who were working for landed elites,

1331
01:29:16,240 --> 01:29:19,519
Speaker 1: and that then radicalized some of these social movements into

1332
01:29:19,520 --> 01:29:22,320
Speaker 1: two separate guerilla movements that were led by rural communist

1333
01:29:22,320 --> 01:29:28,240
Speaker 1: school teachers and not ask and movement in particular the

1334
01:29:28,280 --> 01:29:30,759
Speaker 1: Party of the Poor. They ended up creating a guerilla

1335
01:29:30,800 --> 01:29:33,759
Speaker 1: force of about the high estimates about three hundred fighters.

1336
01:29:34,080 --> 01:29:37,280
Speaker 1: A more realistic estimate is somewhere from one fifty or

1337
01:29:37,320 --> 01:29:40,719
Speaker 1: two hundred. But the key is that in Coastal Guerrero

1338
01:29:40,760 --> 01:29:43,640
Speaker 1: and then some of the mountains mountain communities of they

1339
01:29:43,800 --> 01:29:46,839
Speaker 1: obtain a lot, a pretty substantial amount of popular support,

1340
01:29:47,040 --> 01:29:49,200
Speaker 1: which then leads the Mexican government that had been you know,

1341
01:29:49,280 --> 01:29:51,439
Speaker 1: ruled by the p r I, and it was ruled

1342
01:29:51,479 --> 01:29:53,160
Speaker 1: in Mexico was ruled by the p r I for

1343
01:29:53,160 --> 01:29:55,920
Speaker 1: like eight years. Uh. They sent in the military and

1344
01:29:55,960 --> 01:29:59,439
Speaker 1: they waged this pretty horrific counter insurgency that that did

1345
01:29:59,439 --> 01:30:03,640
Speaker 1: things like disappear people, torture, rape, um. You know, they

1346
01:30:03,720 --> 01:30:07,479
Speaker 1: raised entire communities um. And that's generally what's known as

1347
01:30:07,479 --> 01:30:09,960
Speaker 1: the Dirty War in Mexico. It's a rural theater. Its

1348
01:30:10,040 --> 01:30:12,000
Speaker 1: main rural theater was in a place I get at

1349
01:30:12,000 --> 01:30:14,559
Speaker 1: all where you we think there was almost a thousand

1350
01:30:14,640 --> 01:30:19,880
Speaker 1: disappearances from nineteen sixty nine up until the early nineteen eighties. Yeah,

1351
01:30:19,880 --> 01:30:21,880
Speaker 1: And one of the things that they interested me a

1352
01:30:22,000 --> 01:30:25,519
Speaker 1: lot sort of reading through this was that it's sort

1353
01:30:25,560 --> 01:30:28,040
Speaker 1: of weird for insurgency, and that you get aspects of

1354
01:30:28,080 --> 01:30:31,439
Speaker 1: both kind of the kind of like classical seventies urban

1355
01:30:31,439 --> 01:30:33,920
Speaker 1: grilla movement, but it's also it's very much a real

1356
01:30:33,960 --> 01:30:36,000
Speaker 1: movement you have, you know, I mean, like one of

1357
01:30:36,040 --> 01:30:38,360
Speaker 1: one of the stories you're telling this is about like

1358
01:30:38,520 --> 01:30:40,080
Speaker 1: a group of a group of people who did one

1359
01:30:40,080 --> 01:30:43,120
Speaker 1: of the you know, like the classic urban seventies thing,

1360
01:30:43,160 --> 01:30:45,000
Speaker 1: which is that you know they did they did a

1361
01:30:45,000 --> 01:30:47,680
Speaker 1: bank robbery, and then two the people get tortured and

1362
01:30:47,760 --> 01:30:49,360
Speaker 1: the rural grillas sort of get hunted down. And I

1363
01:30:49,400 --> 01:30:53,200
Speaker 1: was I was wondering about the dynamics of this, because

1364
01:30:53,240 --> 01:30:56,760
Speaker 1: it seems like like there's it seems like you have

1365
01:30:56,800 --> 01:30:59,800
Speaker 1: these groups that are kind of unusually moving back and

1366
01:31:00,000 --> 01:31:03,479
Speaker 1: word between like having bases and cities and having bases

1367
01:31:03,479 --> 01:31:07,160
Speaker 1: in these rural areas. Yeah, that's one of so usually

1368
01:31:07,160 --> 01:31:11,000
Speaker 1: when when when folks think about these these guerrilla movements

1369
01:31:11,040 --> 01:31:12,880
Speaker 1: in Guerrero during the sixties and seventies, they think of

1370
01:31:12,880 --> 01:31:15,720
Speaker 1: them primarily as as a as a you know, very

1371
01:31:15,760 --> 01:31:19,240
Speaker 1: fairly typical rural guerrilla movements as you just described. But

1372
01:31:19,920 --> 01:31:22,479
Speaker 1: these two movements, the one led by lu As the

1373
01:31:22,520 --> 01:31:24,360
Speaker 1: Party of the Poor, the other one by Hannaro Baska

1374
01:31:24,400 --> 01:31:30,479
Speaker 1: is the a CNRS. From the very onset, they tried

1375
01:31:30,520 --> 01:31:33,840
Speaker 1: to connect the rule to the city um, whether it

1376
01:31:33,920 --> 01:31:37,080
Speaker 1: was cities in in Guerrero like um the resort city

1377
01:31:37,080 --> 01:31:39,880
Speaker 1: of Acapulco, particularly working class neighborhoods on the outside of

1378
01:31:39,880 --> 01:31:43,839
Speaker 1: the city, or the state capital in Chilpancingo, which housed

1379
01:31:43,840 --> 01:31:46,320
Speaker 1: the state university. Right, so both of these movements made

1380
01:31:46,320 --> 01:31:49,599
Speaker 1: pretty substantial inroads into that community and then also into

1381
01:31:49,640 --> 01:31:53,519
Speaker 1: Mexico City. So they tried. Their idea was not necessarily

1382
01:31:53,560 --> 01:31:57,240
Speaker 1: to start as a strictly as a strictly rural movement,

1383
01:31:57,280 --> 01:32:00,120
Speaker 1: but their idea was always to expand because I think

1384
01:32:00,920 --> 01:32:04,040
Speaker 1: to the cities, and I think quite rightly they they

1385
01:32:04,280 --> 01:32:06,640
Speaker 1: perceived that what the Mexican state was going to do

1386
01:32:06,680 --> 01:32:08,519
Speaker 1: to them was trying to corral them in the state

1387
01:32:08,560 --> 01:32:12,520
Speaker 1: of Guerrero and prevent them from logistically and politically expanding

1388
01:32:12,840 --> 01:32:15,320
Speaker 1: beyond that. And in the end they were that's exactly

1389
01:32:15,360 --> 01:32:18,280
Speaker 1: what happened, um, And that's how these movements were ruthlessly crushed.

1390
01:32:18,680 --> 01:32:20,400
Speaker 1: That and it took a lot of terror to to

1391
01:32:21,400 --> 01:32:24,160
Speaker 1: separate these armed movements from their popular base of support.

1392
01:32:24,560 --> 01:32:25,880
Speaker 1: But a lot of this has to do with the

1393
01:32:25,920 --> 01:32:28,840
Speaker 1: fact that both Vaskis and Klanas were school teachers and

1394
01:32:28,880 --> 01:32:32,599
Speaker 1: they were involved in union movements that were national in scope. Um.

1395
01:32:32,640 --> 01:32:34,200
Speaker 1: They were in moved, they were in you know, LUs

1396
01:32:34,840 --> 01:32:36,880
Speaker 1: was in the Mexic Communist Party, right, so he had

1397
01:32:36,920 --> 01:32:41,479
Speaker 1: extensive urban experiences and networks throughout the country. So their

1398
01:32:41,479 --> 01:32:44,040
Speaker 1: perspective was always to connect the rule to the urban,

1399
01:32:44,320 --> 01:32:48,000
Speaker 1: particularly because Mexico by the seventies was a rapidly urbanizing country,

1400
01:32:48,080 --> 01:32:50,599
Speaker 1: right it was going it becomes for the first time

1401
01:32:50,600 --> 01:32:53,439
Speaker 1: and assists well first times his post colonial history. It

1402
01:32:53,439 --> 01:32:58,360
Speaker 1: becomes primarily an urban country. So um, So they tried

1403
01:32:58,479 --> 01:33:01,680
Speaker 1: these really interesting mix speriments to try to connect the

1404
01:33:01,720 --> 01:33:04,280
Speaker 1: two theaters. But as you as you mentioned, right, they

1405
01:33:04,320 --> 01:33:07,600
Speaker 1: did that typical nineteen seventies thing of robbing banks and

1406
01:33:07,600 --> 01:33:11,439
Speaker 1: their terminology was expropriation, right, um. But that that then

1407
01:33:11,479 --> 01:33:14,320
Speaker 1: exposed them to two police actions and and any time

1408
01:33:14,360 --> 01:33:18,080
Speaker 1: any of their militants were captured, they were immediately tortured information.

1409
01:33:18,320 --> 01:33:21,160
Speaker 1: You know, that they were interrogated horrifically and that and

1410
01:33:21,200 --> 01:33:23,599
Speaker 1: from intel was used to to hunt down their their

1411
01:33:23,640 --> 01:33:26,680
Speaker 1: their their comrades up in the mountains and ye, and

1412
01:33:26,720 --> 01:33:28,839
Speaker 1: I think that that's a good place to move towards

1413
01:33:29,080 --> 01:33:32,040
Speaker 1: sort of the other side of this, which is partially

1414
01:33:32,040 --> 01:33:35,240
Speaker 1: the Mexican state response. But the part, the part of

1415
01:33:35,280 --> 01:33:37,639
Speaker 1: it that was really interesting to me was about how,

1416
01:33:38,840 --> 01:33:40,559
Speaker 1: you know, so so part part part, part of what

1417
01:33:40,560 --> 01:33:42,760
Speaker 1: these groups are fighting are these sort of very very

1418
01:33:42,800 --> 01:33:48,439
Speaker 1: local like to landed elites. And I wonder if you

1419
01:33:48,439 --> 01:33:51,519
Speaker 1: could talk a little bit about how these sort of

1420
01:33:51,600 --> 01:33:54,280
Speaker 1: local elites merged, are able to merge with and sort

1421
01:33:54,320 --> 01:33:56,320
Speaker 1: of like co opt in a lot of ways that

1422
01:33:57,040 --> 01:34:01,160
Speaker 1: the military units that are deployed. Yeah, that's one of

1423
01:34:01,200 --> 01:34:04,479
Speaker 1: the biggest So let me see how I can answer

1424
01:34:04,560 --> 01:34:07,280
Speaker 1: this question, because there's there's so it's what what I

1425
01:34:07,400 --> 01:34:08,760
Speaker 1: what I try to do in this article, and it's

1426
01:34:08,840 --> 01:34:11,559
Speaker 1: part of my broader ongoing research is to kind of

1427
01:34:11,560 --> 01:34:15,000
Speaker 1: connect the violence, the state violence of the Mexican Dirty

1428
01:34:15,000 --> 01:34:17,280
Speaker 1: War as it as as it happens and get around

1429
01:34:17,320 --> 01:34:20,880
Speaker 1: the seventies with with with something else that's happening simultaneously,

1430
01:34:20,880 --> 01:34:23,760
Speaker 1: which is like the so called drug war and the

1431
01:34:23,840 --> 01:34:27,360
Speaker 1: exponentially increasing cultivation of drugs in a place like Getto,

1432
01:34:27,400 --> 01:34:30,479
Speaker 1: particularly marijuana and then opium poppies that are used to

1433
01:34:30,600 --> 01:34:33,800
Speaker 1: produce heroin. UM. So what I try to do in

1434
01:34:33,800 --> 01:34:36,120
Speaker 1: the article that that you're referencing is kind of the show.

1435
01:34:36,479 --> 01:34:40,400
Speaker 1: There's a longer history and Guerrero of of how power

1436
01:34:40,840 --> 01:34:43,519
Speaker 1: is exercise at the local level and how some of

1437
01:34:43,560 --> 01:34:46,160
Speaker 1: these local landed elites are able to weather the nineteen

1438
01:34:46,160 --> 01:34:49,240
Speaker 1: ten Mexican Revolution, They're able to weather the grain and

1439
01:34:49,320 --> 01:34:54,080
Speaker 1: reform efforts that that occurred in nineteen thirties and forties UM.

1440
01:34:54,240 --> 01:34:57,120
Speaker 1: And and really these these families. One of the things

1441
01:34:57,160 --> 01:35:00,920
Speaker 1: that that captures my attention of Guerrero is that, uh power.

1442
01:35:01,040 --> 01:35:03,080
Speaker 1: You can tell who's in power by just by almost

1443
01:35:03,120 --> 01:35:05,960
Speaker 1: by looking at their last name, because there's this remarkable

1444
01:35:06,000 --> 01:35:09,080
Speaker 1: continuity in the state of who has it managed to

1445
01:35:09,160 --> 01:35:12,360
Speaker 1: exercise power at the local level political, social, economic power

1446
01:35:12,880 --> 01:35:16,360
Speaker 1: um for decades now for generations, um. And you can

1447
01:35:16,400 --> 01:35:19,720
Speaker 1: track how power works by looking at families. And in

1448
01:35:20,120 --> 01:35:21,559
Speaker 1: what I do in this article is to look at

1449
01:35:21,560 --> 01:35:23,800
Speaker 1: a couple of landed elite families that had managed to

1450
01:35:23,800 --> 01:35:27,439
Speaker 1: stay in power for decades um. So there's certain at landed.

1451
01:35:27,840 --> 01:35:31,639
Speaker 1: In this article, I focus on one municipality called which

1452
01:35:31,680 --> 01:35:34,559
Speaker 1: is in the hot Lands region of Guerrero um During

1453
01:35:35,040 --> 01:35:36,600
Speaker 1: you know, probably from about two thousand and eight to

1454
01:35:36,680 --> 01:35:40,879
Speaker 1: two thift it was in the top three in Mexico

1455
01:35:40,960 --> 01:35:43,439
Speaker 1: for opium and and harom production. So it becomes this

1456
01:35:43,520 --> 01:35:47,320
Speaker 1: massive drug producing region. So I go back in time

1457
01:35:47,640 --> 01:35:49,960
Speaker 1: and I kind of trace like who was in power

1458
01:35:50,040 --> 01:35:52,840
Speaker 1: in this region, who owned land, who owned the resources

1459
01:35:52,840 --> 01:35:56,280
Speaker 1: throughout the twentieth century, and how they were responsible for

1460
01:35:56,360 --> 01:36:00,160
Speaker 1: essentially creating this little narco fifedom as it currently exists,

1461
01:36:00,479 --> 01:36:03,120
Speaker 1: and trying to figure out which families were involved. So

1462
01:36:03,160 --> 01:36:04,600
Speaker 1: on the one hand, you have these families that have

1463
01:36:04,640 --> 01:36:06,920
Speaker 1: been in power from like the nineteen twenties and thirties

1464
01:36:06,920 --> 01:36:09,400
Speaker 1: and are still exercising power. And then when we get

1465
01:36:09,439 --> 01:36:12,040
Speaker 1: to the nineteen seventies and you have this this horrific

1466
01:36:12,080 --> 01:36:14,719
Speaker 1: dirty war, this counterinsurgency that the state in the military

1467
01:36:14,840 --> 01:36:18,920
Speaker 1: waging against communities and Gerreo. That opens up new possibilities

1468
01:36:18,960 --> 01:36:21,719
Speaker 1: for new families to come in and to ally themselves

1469
01:36:21,720 --> 01:36:25,639
Speaker 1: with locally stationed UH military units and they work together

1470
01:36:25,760 --> 01:36:28,920
Speaker 1: to wipe out guerillas and guerilla supporters at the and

1471
01:36:29,080 --> 01:36:30,880
Speaker 1: at the same time they start to you know, kind

1472
01:36:30,880 --> 01:36:34,080
Speaker 1: of dip their toe into this this world of narcotics production.

1473
01:36:34,360 --> 01:36:36,920
Speaker 1: Because really in Mexico in the nineteen seven especially by

1474
01:36:36,920 --> 01:36:39,599
Speaker 1: the night mid nineteen seventies, it becomes a number one

1475
01:36:39,680 --> 01:36:43,439
Speaker 1: prior of of marijuana and heroin to the United States. Um.

1476
01:36:43,479 --> 01:36:45,599
Speaker 1: And this is part of just a broader global history

1477
01:36:45,640 --> 01:36:49,519
Speaker 1: of narcotics. Right there's US lad drug interdiction efforts in

1478
01:36:49,520 --> 01:36:54,280
Speaker 1: places like Turkey, Afghanistan and in the in Southeast Asia,

1479
01:36:54,640 --> 01:36:58,120
Speaker 1: and efforts to suppress the drug drug production there creates

1480
01:36:58,160 --> 01:37:00,000
Speaker 1: this you know what, what what people usually refer to

1481
01:37:00,040 --> 01:37:03,240
Speaker 1: is a balloon effect. It just displaces the drug production

1482
01:37:03,320 --> 01:37:05,599
Speaker 1: somewhere else because the demand in the US is still there.

1483
01:37:06,000 --> 01:37:09,160
Speaker 1: And that because and that creates in Mexico the number

1484
01:37:09,200 --> 01:37:11,680
Speaker 1: one provider of narcotics by the mid nineties seventies, and

1485
01:37:11,680 --> 01:37:13,839
Speaker 1: that then has an impact locally in the place of Guerrero,

1486
01:37:14,120 --> 01:37:17,920
Speaker 1: which is again simultaneously experiencing a grill insurgency, a dirty war,

1487
01:37:18,360 --> 01:37:21,720
Speaker 1: and then also the ramping up of drug production. One

1488
01:37:21,760 --> 01:37:23,920
Speaker 1: of the most interesting parts of this that I didn't

1489
01:37:23,960 --> 01:37:27,639
Speaker 1: know about was about how I mean they're like, how

1490
01:37:27,720 --> 01:37:31,200
Speaker 1: how explicitly because I've read a lot of well not

1491
01:37:31,240 --> 01:37:34,559
Speaker 1: a lot, but I've read about a lot of how,

1492
01:37:35,640 --> 01:37:39,719
Speaker 1: particularly after like when when the sort of after sort

1493
01:37:39,760 --> 01:37:41,720
Speaker 1: of the various up people of two thousands six in

1494
01:37:41,760 --> 01:37:45,080
Speaker 1: Mexico with the Wahaka uprising with the Zapatis is making

1495
01:37:45,160 --> 01:37:48,080
Speaker 1: bunch of moves and the CP presidential election, about how

1496
01:37:48,720 --> 01:37:50,400
Speaker 1: you get the drug war is to sort of like

1497
01:37:51,200 --> 01:37:53,880
Speaker 1: military solution to these leftist movements. But I was interested

1498
01:37:53,920 --> 01:37:57,400
Speaker 1: in how, I mean, incredibly explicit they are about this,

1499
01:37:57,479 --> 01:38:01,120
Speaker 1: Like the anti gorilla operation are like they don't call

1500
01:38:01,200 --> 01:38:04,559
Speaker 1: them antic thriller operations. They talk about like bandits and

1501
01:38:04,600 --> 01:38:06,680
Speaker 1: like they they they they were they were explicitly like,

1502
01:38:06,720 --> 01:38:08,559
Speaker 1: no, no no, no, this is an anti narco operation even

1503
01:38:08,560 --> 01:38:13,479
Speaker 1: though you know they're going and massacurring like essentially peasants

1504
01:38:13,520 --> 01:38:16,479
Speaker 1: and occasionally guerrillas, but just a bunch of just random

1505
01:38:17,120 --> 01:38:22,799
Speaker 1: like capusinos. Yeah, yeah, there's a there's a great quote

1506
01:38:22,800 --> 01:38:26,519
Speaker 1: that I got from for in this article. Um, you

1507
01:38:26,560 --> 01:38:29,280
Speaker 1: know this is wonderful researcher in Mexico. Carlos Flordes was

1508
01:38:29,360 --> 01:38:32,320
Speaker 1: a really good book on kind of like the failed

1509
01:38:32,320 --> 01:38:34,840
Speaker 1: state in Mexico and drugs and military And in that

1510
01:38:34,920 --> 01:38:39,519
Speaker 1: steady he managed to interview a military participant in the

1511
01:38:39,520 --> 01:38:42,120
Speaker 1: dirty war in the nineteen seventies, and he has this

1512
01:38:42,200 --> 01:38:44,439
Speaker 1: great quote that I included in this essay which he says,

1513
01:38:44,760 --> 01:38:48,400
Speaker 1: this military guy says basically, look, with the marijuana growers,

1514
01:38:48,520 --> 01:38:51,680
Speaker 1: we had no problem, we had no beef. But with

1515
01:38:51,720 --> 01:38:54,439
Speaker 1: the guerrillas, we had the fuck them up. And for me,

1516
01:38:54,560 --> 01:38:58,040
Speaker 1: like that, that direct quote kind of encapsulates like what

1517
01:38:58,160 --> 01:39:01,000
Speaker 1: the drug war in Mexico has been historically and in

1518
01:39:01,000 --> 01:39:03,400
Speaker 1: this current form. Like and this is something that I

1519
01:39:03,479 --> 01:39:06,439
Speaker 1: learned from people like sociologists and journalists Don Paley, right,

1520
01:39:06,439 --> 01:39:08,200
Speaker 1: like the war on drugs, the war on poor people,

1521
01:39:08,920 --> 01:39:12,160
Speaker 1: um and and it it becomes in the nineteen seventies,

1522
01:39:12,200 --> 01:39:14,800
Speaker 1: it becomes a really useful cover for the type of

1523
01:39:14,800 --> 01:39:17,519
Speaker 1: horrific violence that the state is practicing in a place

1524
01:39:17,520 --> 01:39:22,520
Speaker 1: like Gero against these popularly supported guerilla insurgencies. So publicly

1525
01:39:22,680 --> 01:39:25,280
Speaker 1: and to the international audience and to its own domestic

1526
01:39:25,360 --> 01:39:27,800
Speaker 1: national audience, the Mexican state is saying, look, we're not

1527
01:39:27,840 --> 01:39:30,760
Speaker 1: waging a dirty war, We're not waging a counter insurgency.

1528
01:39:30,760 --> 01:39:33,839
Speaker 1: We're fighting a war against cattle wrestlers, against cattle thieves,

1529
01:39:34,160 --> 01:39:37,679
Speaker 1: and against criminals, against drug dealers, um, when in reality

1530
01:39:37,680 --> 01:39:40,080
Speaker 1: they're waging a war against poor people who are supporting

1531
01:39:40,080 --> 01:39:44,840
Speaker 1: these different guerilla insurgencies led by these rural communist school teachers. UM.

1532
01:39:44,880 --> 01:39:46,880
Speaker 1: So that's and that's in the rural theater, right. It's

1533
01:39:47,040 --> 01:39:49,799
Speaker 1: it's really interesting when you think about how the Mexican

1534
01:39:49,800 --> 01:39:53,160
Speaker 1: state in the seventies will criminalize urban guerrilla movements. You know,

1535
01:39:53,240 --> 01:39:55,679
Speaker 1: Mexico had like thirty eight guerilla movements in the nineteen

1536
01:39:55,680 --> 01:39:58,680
Speaker 1: sixies and seventies. That's just like people don't really recognize that, right,

1537
01:39:58,720 --> 01:40:02,160
Speaker 1: like thirty eight to four different rural and urban guerilla organizations.

1538
01:40:02,479 --> 01:40:05,640
Speaker 1: The big urban one that managed to create i don't know,

1539
01:40:05,720 --> 01:40:09,799
Speaker 1: ten to twelve different uh focals or folsa of posa

1540
01:40:10,400 --> 01:40:16,200
Speaker 1: UM was the leg the communist legue of the September Um.

1541
01:40:16,240 --> 01:40:18,840
Speaker 1: They became such a big threat in the urban theater

1542
01:40:19,040 --> 01:40:22,720
Speaker 1: that the Mexican president devoted his nineteen seventy four State

1543
01:40:22,760 --> 01:40:25,280
Speaker 1: of the Union basically the Mexican version of the State

1544
01:40:25,320 --> 01:40:27,360
Speaker 1: of Union. He devoted a pretty good chunk of it

1545
01:40:27,400 --> 01:40:30,479
Speaker 1: to these quote unquote terrorists. Right, So for the urban guerrillas,

1546
01:40:30,520 --> 01:40:32,960
Speaker 1: he referred to them as terrorists, and then he does

1547
01:40:33,000 --> 01:40:34,800
Speaker 1: this thing where he says, you know, most of these

1548
01:40:34,880 --> 01:40:39,240
Speaker 1: terrorists are unpatriotic. They and I'm gonna paraphrase some of

1549
01:40:39,240 --> 01:40:45,120
Speaker 1: his language, they reveal high indices of homosexuality, of like

1550
01:40:45,200 --> 01:40:47,800
Speaker 1: just basically mothering them to the point that they're seen

1551
01:40:47,840 --> 01:40:51,120
Speaker 1: as like the most despicable other in Mexico, in Mexican society,

1552
01:40:51,439 --> 01:40:54,760
Speaker 1: and that then opens them up to getting wiped out. Um,

1553
01:40:54,800 --> 01:40:58,120
Speaker 1: which is fulfills a similar function as calling the rural

1554
01:40:58,120 --> 01:41:01,680
Speaker 1: guerillas nothing more than cattle astlers, cattle fees, and narcos. Right.

1555
01:41:02,080 --> 01:41:05,240
Speaker 1: So it's all this counterinsurgency like discursive strategy that that

1556
01:41:05,360 --> 01:41:09,400
Speaker 1: justifies the elimination of these people. But at bottom, these

1557
01:41:09,439 --> 01:41:11,519
Speaker 1: are just wars against the drug wars, a war against

1558
01:41:11,560 --> 01:41:14,080
Speaker 1: poor people. And and you see that to this day,

1559
01:41:14,120 --> 01:41:15,800
Speaker 1: you see that, you know most one of the things

1560
01:41:15,800 --> 01:41:18,559
Speaker 1: that really animates my research about the history of drug

1561
01:41:18,560 --> 01:41:21,439
Speaker 1: wars in Mexico is that I really want to push

1562
01:41:21,479 --> 01:41:25,519
Speaker 1: back against, you know, journalistic treatments that that will say, look,

1563
01:41:25,560 --> 01:41:27,800
Speaker 1: Mexico's war on drugs began in two thousand and six

1564
01:41:28,200 --> 01:41:31,599
Speaker 1: when President Felipe own Way, you know, launched the military

1565
01:41:31,640 --> 01:41:35,040
Speaker 1: against these different drug trafficking organizations, and you know, historians

1566
01:41:35,240 --> 01:41:37,240
Speaker 1: um like like myself will work on this. We're like, wait, no,

1567
01:41:37,360 --> 01:41:40,200
Speaker 1: Mexico has had a series of drug wars right that

1568
01:41:40,280 --> 01:41:43,439
Speaker 1: the There's a historian Alec Dawson who talks about has

1569
01:41:43,479 --> 01:41:46,280
Speaker 1: a really excellent book on Payote, and he talks about

1570
01:41:46,280 --> 01:41:48,519
Speaker 1: how the war on drugs begins in like the colonial era,

1571
01:41:48,600 --> 01:41:51,600
Speaker 1: right in terms of how the Spanish colonial state criminalized

1572
01:41:52,200 --> 01:41:56,040
Speaker 1: uh indigenous consumption of drugs like payote for for their

1573
01:41:56,040 --> 01:41:59,960
Speaker 1: own ritualistic cultural practices. Um. The nineteen seventies is another

1574
01:42:00,080 --> 01:42:02,599
Speaker 1: or moment where you have a form of a drug

1575
01:42:02,640 --> 01:42:06,160
Speaker 1: war that the Mexican state exercises. But from my perspective,

1576
01:42:06,200 --> 01:42:08,720
Speaker 1: it's just it's almost like a cover as a way

1577
01:42:08,760 --> 01:42:12,080
Speaker 1: to wage war against political dissidents and an armed guerrilla

1578
01:42:12,200 --> 01:42:15,040
Speaker 1: challenges to its rule in Mexico. Yeah, and I think

1579
01:42:15,080 --> 01:42:17,559
Speaker 1: that's a that's an important of looking at it also

1580
01:42:17,680 --> 01:42:24,000
Speaker 1: as just a way to understand why, you know, like

1581
01:42:24,120 --> 01:42:25,640
Speaker 1: if you're looking at it from the inspective of like

1582
01:42:25,640 --> 01:42:27,280
Speaker 1: a policy makers, like oh, well, we spent all the

1583
01:42:27,280 --> 01:42:28,880
Speaker 1: time during the War on drugs, like why are there

1584
01:42:28,880 --> 01:42:31,439
Speaker 1: more drugs? And it's like, well, yeah, because I mean,

1585
01:42:31,479 --> 01:42:37,559
Speaker 1: the point isn't really about like I mean, I think, okay,

1586
01:42:37,560 --> 01:42:39,280
Speaker 1: I want to make a caviat here, which is like

1587
01:42:39,600 --> 01:42:41,560
Speaker 1: it's not like there's such a thing as like a

1588
01:42:41,640 --> 01:42:44,000
Speaker 1: quote unquote good war on drugs that you could wage

1589
01:42:44,360 --> 01:42:45,920
Speaker 1: like there there's no, there isn't a version of this

1590
01:42:46,040 --> 01:42:48,320
Speaker 1: that's like, oh no, if if if we actually just

1591
01:42:48,360 --> 01:42:50,479
Speaker 1: try to like focusing on stopping these people, it would work.

1592
01:42:50,479 --> 01:42:54,320
Speaker 1: But it's like no. But simultaneously, yeah, it's that the

1593
01:42:55,080 --> 01:42:59,880
Speaker 1: goal isn't really about like it's not about drugs, that

1594
01:43:00,000 --> 01:43:01,720
Speaker 1: just about killing poor people. And I said, yeah, I

1595
01:43:01,720 --> 01:43:03,360
Speaker 1: think that that's that's a good way of framing it.

1596
01:43:03,400 --> 01:43:08,679
Speaker 1: And I think also it's an interesting way of looking

1597
01:43:09,720 --> 01:43:15,680
Speaker 1: at why you start to see these sort of supposedly

1598
01:43:15,680 --> 01:43:20,320
Speaker 1: like anti narco units just immediately start doing like getting

1599
01:43:20,360 --> 01:43:25,200
Speaker 1: to the trade. Yeah yeah, well I because they're like

1600
01:43:25,520 --> 01:43:28,080
Speaker 1: their position to make a ton of money off of it. Yeah,

1601
01:43:28,200 --> 01:43:30,519
Speaker 1: like it's yeah, they're not dumb. Yeah yeah. And I

1602
01:43:30,600 --> 01:43:32,439
Speaker 1: think I don't know, this is an interesting question about

1603
01:43:32,439 --> 01:43:34,400
Speaker 1: like the structure of the state here too, because you know,

1604
01:43:34,439 --> 01:43:36,200
Speaker 1: look like in Chicago, this is another like this is

1605
01:43:36,200 --> 01:43:37,680
Speaker 1: the thing that happens all the time, is yeah, you

1606
01:43:37,680 --> 01:43:39,640
Speaker 1: get these you get these anti drug units that are

1607
01:43:39,640 --> 01:43:41,360
Speaker 1: you know, incredibly specialized to get a bunch of money,

1608
01:43:41,360 --> 01:43:43,559
Speaker 1: and then they immediately trying to round start and start

1609
01:43:43,680 --> 01:43:45,920
Speaker 1: like just do like just enter into the drug trade.

1610
01:43:46,560 --> 01:43:48,800
Speaker 1: And so I was one of the other things. Yeah,

1611
01:43:48,800 --> 01:43:53,840
Speaker 1: I was just been interested in this just about there's

1612
01:43:53,960 --> 01:43:59,760
Speaker 1: there's seems to be these these very these these very

1613
01:43:59,800 --> 01:44:06,680
Speaker 1: interesting sort of alliances between paramilitaries, cartels, the police in

1614
01:44:06,720 --> 01:44:10,160
Speaker 1: the military that open up and this is this I

1615
01:44:10,200 --> 01:44:13,679
Speaker 1: know this is an incredibly broad like it's a question

1616
01:44:13,760 --> 01:44:16,360
Speaker 1: you can like, you know, devot academic disciplines too. But

1617
01:44:16,400 --> 01:44:19,519
Speaker 1: I was wondering how you look at the states in

1618
01:44:19,600 --> 01:44:23,120
Speaker 1: the context in a context like this, because yeah, I

1619
01:44:23,120 --> 01:44:26,200
Speaker 1: mean in a context where you know, it's not the

1620
01:44:26,240 --> 01:44:30,720
Speaker 1: state doesn't really have monopoly on violence, right, Yeah, No,

1621
01:44:30,840 --> 01:44:33,439
Speaker 1: that's a that's a huge question. And there's how you

1622
01:44:33,680 --> 01:44:36,439
Speaker 1: I mean, essentially the question is like what is the state? Yeah,

1623
01:44:36,479 --> 01:44:40,880
Speaker 1: that question always terrorizes me. And how you answer that

1624
01:44:41,000 --> 01:44:44,960
Speaker 1: question then leads has consequences to how we think about

1625
01:44:45,160 --> 01:44:48,280
Speaker 1: things like the drug war or you know, violence in

1626
01:44:48,360 --> 01:44:51,479
Speaker 1: Mexico or a variety of different things. Right. But so

1627
01:44:51,680 --> 01:44:54,479
Speaker 1: what I what I do in this article is uncle you,

1628
01:44:55,640 --> 01:44:57,840
Speaker 1: is to just simply look at what the state looks

1629
01:44:57,840 --> 01:45:00,840
Speaker 1: like at the local level, right, Um, particularly like it's

1630
01:45:00,840 --> 01:45:03,719
Speaker 1: repressive apparatus is and what you see in a place

1631
01:45:03,800 --> 01:45:09,519
Speaker 1: like because yeah, you see kind of like it's a

1632
01:45:09,600 --> 01:45:14,360
Speaker 1: multi scale er issue, right where you have generations of

1633
01:45:14,680 --> 01:45:17,840
Speaker 1: conflicts over land and land tenure and who gets to

1634
01:45:17,880 --> 01:45:21,400
Speaker 1: control rural markets, who gets to control access to rural

1635
01:45:21,439 --> 01:45:23,760
Speaker 1: markets and rural production. Right, So there's already like a

1636
01:45:23,800 --> 01:45:27,439
Speaker 1: built in structure that's exploitative, that has somehow managed to

1637
01:45:27,479 --> 01:45:31,400
Speaker 1: weather a big social revolution and a grand reform effort.

1638
01:45:31,880 --> 01:45:34,160
Speaker 1: And on top of that, then in the sixties and seventies,

1639
01:45:34,160 --> 01:45:38,760
Speaker 1: you get uh, you know, industrialized narcotics production placed on

1640
01:45:38,800 --> 01:45:41,559
Speaker 1: top of this pre existing structure. Right, So it's should

1641
01:45:41,560 --> 01:45:44,840
Speaker 1: be no, it's almost like no surprise then that you know,

1642
01:45:44,880 --> 01:45:46,640
Speaker 1: the gun slingers that you still work for Land of

1643
01:45:46,640 --> 01:45:50,000
Speaker 1: Elagues will now serves not just gun slingers for Land

1644
01:45:50,040 --> 01:45:53,000
Speaker 1: of elages who are terrorizing campesinos, but now they're also

1645
01:45:53,000 --> 01:45:56,439
Speaker 1: gonna work with like local narcotic Uh, you know, narco farmers,

1646
01:45:56,520 --> 01:46:00,719
Speaker 1: drug farmers, and and traffickers, and then at the same

1647
01:46:00,720 --> 01:46:03,720
Speaker 1: time they're going to do their best to coopt to

1648
01:46:03,840 --> 01:46:06,880
Speaker 1: buy off you know, military units that are stationed at

1649
01:46:06,880 --> 01:46:08,880
Speaker 1: the local level, police units that are stationed at the

1650
01:46:08,880 --> 01:46:12,920
Speaker 1: local level, local judges, local magistrates, local political officials, and

1651
01:46:12,920 --> 01:46:17,080
Speaker 1: and it it creates a very um dense network at

1652
01:46:17,120 --> 01:46:20,960
Speaker 1: the local level of people who are working together to

1653
01:46:21,080 --> 01:46:25,200
Speaker 1: maintain power but at the same time make sure that

1654
01:46:25,240 --> 01:46:29,320
Speaker 1: this really profitable political economy of narcotics is going to thrive.

1655
01:46:29,880 --> 01:46:31,800
Speaker 1: And this is at the very local level, right, So

1656
01:46:32,520 --> 01:46:35,519
Speaker 1: in some in some ways those local interests of the

1657
01:46:35,560 --> 01:46:38,479
Speaker 1: quote unquote the state are will conflict with the state

1658
01:46:38,600 --> 01:46:41,760
Speaker 1: in Mexico City and how to resolve those tensions and

1659
01:46:41,800 --> 01:46:44,120
Speaker 1: becomes a big deal. So the the guy that the

1660
01:46:44,160 --> 01:46:47,439
Speaker 1: military participant that I referenced earlier, he was he was

1661
01:46:47,520 --> 01:46:50,760
Speaker 1: actually sent in from outside of Gereo into GEO to

1662
01:46:50,880 --> 01:46:54,920
Speaker 1: wage counterinsurgency. And you know, he talks in this book

1663
01:46:54,960 --> 01:46:57,240
Speaker 1: about how they didn't know what to do when they

1664
01:46:57,320 --> 01:47:02,960
Speaker 1: see their soldier comrades, you know, obviously collaborating with local nauticles,

1665
01:47:03,360 --> 01:47:05,680
Speaker 1: even though the over this guy in his unit have

1666
01:47:05,760 --> 01:47:07,960
Speaker 1: been sent in to wipe out the nuticles so it

1667
01:47:08,040 --> 01:47:11,160
Speaker 1: ends up happening. Is that the goal is never to

1668
01:47:11,280 --> 01:47:15,800
Speaker 1: eradicate the from a national level, from a state national level,

1669
01:47:15,840 --> 01:47:17,600
Speaker 1: the goal is never to eradicate the drug trade in

1670
01:47:17,640 --> 01:47:19,920
Speaker 1: Mexico in the sixties, seventies and eighties, the goal is

1671
01:47:19,960 --> 01:47:23,599
Speaker 1: to rationalize it. The goal is to control it, and

1672
01:47:23,479 --> 01:47:25,960
Speaker 1: and the goal is for the state to be able

1673
01:47:26,000 --> 01:47:29,800
Speaker 1: to maintain power over it. And this is leads us

1674
01:47:29,840 --> 01:47:31,680
Speaker 1: to what you know, some scholars will refer to as

1675
01:47:31,680 --> 01:47:35,160
Speaker 1: a plasta system, right, that that that different narcotic organ

1676
01:47:35,280 --> 01:47:39,240
Speaker 1: traffic organizations will control different parts of Mexico, but the

1677
01:47:39,320 --> 01:47:41,640
Speaker 1: overall power, you know, they have to kick back to

1678
01:47:42,960 --> 01:47:48,000
Speaker 1: is our different state officials. UM. And that there's a

1679
01:47:48,040 --> 01:47:51,120
Speaker 1: recent book, really great book by Ben Smith called The

1680
01:47:51,160 --> 01:47:53,360
Speaker 1: Dope that just came out, really like the first really

1681
01:47:53,360 --> 01:47:57,040
Speaker 1: good English language big history of of the Mexican drug trade.

1682
01:47:57,560 --> 01:48:00,879
Speaker 1: And and he essentially he says that like the Mexican

1683
01:48:00,920 --> 01:48:04,160
Speaker 1: state is is a racket. It's a racket, and it's

1684
01:48:04,360 --> 01:48:08,680
Speaker 1: ensuring that this drug trade exists, and it's centralized and

1685
01:48:08,720 --> 01:48:11,800
Speaker 1: it's rationalized in the sixties, seventies and eighties. UM. But

1686
01:48:11,880 --> 01:48:13,920
Speaker 1: by the nineties, it starts to lose control as the

1687
01:48:14,000 --> 01:48:17,440
Speaker 1: state itself is neoliberalized and becomes smaller and its capacity

1688
01:48:17,520 --> 01:48:23,519
Speaker 1: to control these different groups becomes, uh weakened. So so

1689
01:48:23,720 --> 01:48:25,439
Speaker 1: that's like the big national level, right, and then we

1690
01:48:25,520 --> 01:48:27,280
Speaker 1: think that takes us to the scale of the international

1691
01:48:27,280 --> 01:48:29,360
Speaker 1: which is a whole another thing. But at the very

1692
01:48:29,360 --> 01:48:31,439
Speaker 1: local level, what does this look like. It looks like

1693
01:48:31,479 --> 01:48:34,000
Speaker 1: if you're a drug farmer, right, Because another thing in

1694
01:48:34,000 --> 01:48:37,679
Speaker 1: Garretos that these drug farmers are like small scale right there.

1695
01:48:37,720 --> 01:48:39,880
Speaker 1: They're small scale. They have a little bit of autonomy,

1696
01:48:39,920 --> 01:48:43,600
Speaker 1: but they're small scale. But they're selling their product to

1697
01:48:43,680 --> 01:48:47,080
Speaker 1: these traffickers. And these are the traffickers usually that will

1698
01:48:47,120 --> 01:48:50,680
Speaker 1: have connections to local landed families, who'll have connections to military,

1699
01:48:50,720 --> 01:48:53,960
Speaker 1: to police, to politicians, um. That will ensure that this

1700
01:48:54,040 --> 01:48:56,679
Speaker 1: economy will will have will continue to thrive in a

1701
01:48:56,720 --> 01:48:59,240
Speaker 1: in a profitable way by the late seventies. Way, and

1702
01:48:59,240 --> 01:49:01,760
Speaker 1: this is something else I think that I needed a

1703
01:49:01,760 --> 01:49:04,120
Speaker 1: little bit more research on. But you see it happened

1704
01:49:04,120 --> 01:49:06,439
Speaker 1: elsewhere in Mexico and especially in the northwest, in a

1705
01:49:06,479 --> 01:49:08,759
Speaker 1: place like Sinaloa, which is usually seen as the cradle

1706
01:49:08,800 --> 01:49:10,920
Speaker 1: of the Mexican drug trade. But I think in the

1707
01:49:11,000 --> 01:49:14,639
Speaker 1: late seventies, both in Sin and the Dirty War, and

1708
01:49:14,640 --> 01:49:16,800
Speaker 1: and the and the sending of the military and mass

1709
01:49:16,840 --> 01:49:19,719
Speaker 1: in a place like Garreto, it not only takes out

1710
01:49:19,880 --> 01:49:22,120
Speaker 1: armed resistance to the Mexican state, but it will also

1711
01:49:22,160 --> 01:49:25,880
Speaker 1: take out small scale narco traffickers who don't want to play.

1712
01:49:26,400 --> 01:49:28,400
Speaker 1: They don't like the rules that the Mexican state is

1713
01:49:28,400 --> 01:49:31,200
Speaker 1: imposing upon them in order to make money and traffic drugs.

1714
01:49:31,800 --> 01:49:35,080
Speaker 1: Um So, I've seen a couple of documents where, um,

1715
01:49:35,120 --> 01:49:39,400
Speaker 1: you know, secret police, spy agent documents where they say, Okay, yes,

1716
01:49:39,800 --> 01:49:42,800
Speaker 1: you know these these campesinos who are accused of being guerillas, Yes,

1717
01:49:42,840 --> 01:49:48,040
Speaker 1: we are disappearing them. But apparently some small scale drug

1718
01:49:48,040 --> 01:49:50,800
Speaker 1: traffickers are also being disappeared because they're not they don't

1719
01:49:50,840 --> 01:49:52,680
Speaker 1: want to go along with the rules being imposed by

1720
01:49:52,680 --> 01:49:54,960
Speaker 1: the Mexican military. And that's something that you see in

1721
01:49:55,400 --> 01:49:58,519
Speaker 1: in Sinaloa in the late seventies, when something called Operation

1722
01:49:58,560 --> 01:50:01,320
Speaker 1: Condor gets launched and you get thousands of troops and

1723
01:50:01,320 --> 01:50:04,200
Speaker 1: federal police who go up there, and instead of eradicating

1724
01:50:04,240 --> 01:50:07,760
Speaker 1: the drug trade and getting rid of these different traffickers,

1725
01:50:07,760 --> 01:50:10,720
Speaker 1: what they do is they centralize it, they rationalize it, um,

1726
01:50:10,760 --> 01:50:13,479
Speaker 1: they make it more efficient. I mean that actually it's

1727
01:50:13,479 --> 01:50:17,360
Speaker 1: so it's in in a counterintuitive way, it's state violence

1728
01:50:18,000 --> 01:50:20,680
Speaker 1: that actually leads to the formation of things that we

1729
01:50:20,720 --> 01:50:23,280
Speaker 1: think about as cartels and not the other way around,

1730
01:50:23,360 --> 01:50:27,519
Speaker 1: right because the very trade begins within the confines of

1731
01:50:27,560 --> 01:50:30,800
Speaker 1: the Mexican State. In part two of this interview, we're

1732
01:50:30,800 --> 01:50:33,439
Speaker 1: gonna drill deeper into that question and look at how

1733
01:50:33,479 --> 01:50:35,200
Speaker 1: the state's attempt to get in on the drug trade

1734
01:50:35,240 --> 01:50:37,320
Speaker 1: created the cartels and how they sort of lost control

1735
01:50:37,360 --> 01:50:39,759
Speaker 1: of them, leading to an incredible increase in part military

1736
01:50:39,880 --> 01:50:42,840
Speaker 1: violence and death and destruction. And on that happy note

1737
01:50:42,880 --> 01:50:45,559
Speaker 1: that this has been it could Happen here Join us

1738
01:50:45,560 --> 01:50:50,080
Speaker 1: again tomorrow for that and in the meantime, stay safe

1739
01:50:50,080 --> 01:50:52,839
Speaker 1: and don't die. If you want to find us, we're

1740
01:50:52,880 --> 01:50:56,760
Speaker 1: at Happen Here pot on Twitter, Instagram. You can also

1741
01:50:56,800 --> 01:50:59,360
Speaker 1: find other work that we do at cools on media

1742
01:50:59,400 --> 01:51:02,360
Speaker 1: on Twitter if for some reason you can, you want

1743
01:51:02,360 --> 01:51:16,240
Speaker 1: to continue venturing out of the house sides A way

1744
01:51:18,920 --> 01:51:20,920
Speaker 1: this is It Could Happen Here, a podcast that is

1745
01:51:21,000 --> 01:51:24,800
Speaker 1: often in today about state and paramilitary violence. And we're

1746
01:51:24,840 --> 01:51:27,559
Speaker 1: back with part two of her interview. With Alexander Vinia

1747
01:51:28,160 --> 01:51:32,280
Speaker 1: about the state and paramilitary violence in the cartels in Mexico.

1748
01:51:33,000 --> 01:51:34,760
Speaker 1: The immediate thing I was thinking about this was it

1749
01:51:34,800 --> 01:51:38,479
Speaker 1: reminds me a lot of uh, some stuff I've read

1750
01:51:38,760 --> 01:51:43,439
Speaker 1: a while back about like smuggling people over the border

1751
01:51:43,960 --> 01:51:47,840
Speaker 1: and about how the American militarization of that like destroyed

1752
01:51:47,840 --> 01:51:51,400
Speaker 1: because it used to like as as the US tries

1753
01:51:51,439 --> 01:51:53,400
Speaker 1: to like make the border more and more unsafe, if

1754
01:51:53,439 --> 01:51:54,960
Speaker 1: it can, becomes harder and harder, and it means that

1755
01:51:54,960 --> 01:51:57,080
Speaker 1: like the people who can actually do it, like you know,

1756
01:51:57,120 --> 01:51:59,519
Speaker 1: you need to have access to more resources and more

1757
01:52:00,479 --> 01:52:03,720
Speaker 1: like technical capability, and that's sort of like and that

1758
01:52:03,720 --> 01:52:06,040
Speaker 1: that also in a lot of ways help the cartels

1759
01:52:06,080 --> 01:52:08,800
Speaker 1: because you know it, well, it's like, okay, so who

1760
01:52:08,800 --> 01:52:11,840
Speaker 1: actually has a bunch of organizational expertise with smuggling routes

1761
01:52:11,880 --> 01:52:13,960
Speaker 1: and a lot of money And it's it's and I

1762
01:52:14,040 --> 01:52:17,800
Speaker 1: think that's like it is it's an interesting way of

1763
01:52:17,920 --> 01:52:21,640
Speaker 1: looking at what the national application of state power in

1764
01:52:21,680 --> 01:52:25,960
Speaker 1: these like it does, which is that like it's it

1765
01:52:26,040 --> 01:52:29,960
Speaker 1: seems almost like what's happening is that so when when

1766
01:52:30,000 --> 01:52:32,160
Speaker 1: you get these massive exertion to state power, it's not

1767
01:52:32,240 --> 01:52:34,880
Speaker 1: that they like flatten, like you know, it's not that

1768
01:52:34,880 --> 01:52:36,479
Speaker 1: they just sort of wipe out out resistance. What they

1769
01:52:36,520 --> 01:52:40,400
Speaker 1: do is they yeah, it's what you were saying, is

1770
01:52:40,439 --> 01:52:42,360
Speaker 1: like they centralize the drug trip. But it also they

1771
01:52:42,400 --> 01:52:44,640
Speaker 1: centralize the sort of violent apparatus. And it means that

1772
01:52:45,000 --> 01:52:46,800
Speaker 1: like yeah, if if, if you're going to survive that

1773
01:52:46,880 --> 01:52:51,160
Speaker 1: you have to be like incredibly efficient and incredibly violent,

1774
01:52:51,160 --> 01:52:55,479
Speaker 1: and you have to also sort of start like you

1775
01:52:55,479 --> 01:52:57,760
Speaker 1: you have to start playing with it, like playing by

1776
01:52:57,800 --> 01:53:01,040
Speaker 1: the rules at the state of exception, which is you know,

1777
01:53:01,120 --> 01:53:04,880
Speaker 1: and that's that's like how I guess the violence level

1778
01:53:04,880 --> 01:53:10,160
Speaker 1: and the organizational centralization happens. Yeah, I think yeah, No,

1779
01:53:10,360 --> 01:53:12,000
Speaker 1: I think you're I think you're right. And I think

1780
01:53:12,120 --> 01:53:16,000
Speaker 1: it's also becomes part of the to add I mean,

1781
01:53:16,080 --> 01:53:18,639
Speaker 1: so to add you know, fuel to the fire. Even

1782
01:53:18,640 --> 01:53:21,280
Speaker 1: more so, it's become a strategy of like the d

1783
01:53:21,320 --> 01:53:24,519
Speaker 1: E A and and and counting oar cautics forces in

1784
01:53:24,560 --> 01:53:27,479
Speaker 1: Mexico to to do what you just describe, but then

1785
01:53:27,479 --> 01:53:31,160
Speaker 1: also to so dissension amongst the different drug trafficking organizations, right,

1786
01:53:31,240 --> 01:53:34,840
Speaker 1: so um that then also increases the violence. Right, So

1787
01:53:34,960 --> 01:53:37,160
Speaker 1: if you can get you know, it was it was

1788
01:53:37,160 --> 01:53:40,360
Speaker 1: pretty well none that the chapel. For instance, the leader

1789
01:53:40,400 --> 01:53:43,000
Speaker 1: of the Senetta cartel until well, let's not say leader

1790
01:53:43,040 --> 01:53:45,360
Speaker 1: one of the most prominent traffickers of the Senato carteltil

1791
01:53:45,360 --> 01:53:48,200
Speaker 1: recently like he was giving up people. He was giving

1792
01:53:48,240 --> 01:53:50,479
Speaker 1: information on rivals to the d e A and to

1793
01:53:50,680 --> 01:53:54,800
Speaker 1: other other counting arcotics forces. Right. And that's part of

1794
01:53:54,840 --> 01:53:58,439
Speaker 1: the strategy. The strategy is to fragment these groups, um.

1795
01:53:58,560 --> 01:54:01,200
Speaker 1: And that only concreases the violen and and you see

1796
01:54:01,240 --> 01:54:04,960
Speaker 1: that violence at the very localized level. Um. And this

1797
01:54:05,000 --> 01:54:07,640
Speaker 1: is what Garretto suffering from right now right for a

1798
01:54:07,640 --> 01:54:12,480
Speaker 1: long time, under the control of one single drug trafficking organization,

1799
01:54:12,520 --> 01:54:16,760
Speaker 1: slash family from the state of sinaloas right, they used

1800
01:54:16,840 --> 01:54:20,040
Speaker 1: they were originally aligned with their actually cousins with the

1801
01:54:20,080 --> 01:54:22,519
Speaker 1: Chappa Uzman's family. They had a falling out and they

1802
01:54:22,520 --> 01:54:24,280
Speaker 1: made two thousands and they and they went to war.

1803
01:54:24,800 --> 01:54:27,559
Speaker 1: And I had disastrous consequences for the people of Guereto

1804
01:54:27,640 --> 01:54:31,679
Speaker 1: because it fragmented the drug trafficking organizations and it forced

1805
01:54:31,680 --> 01:54:34,920
Speaker 1: different local groups to take sides. Um And And that's

1806
01:54:35,000 --> 01:54:38,120
Speaker 1: kind of how I end the article that that you're referencing, right, Um,

1807
01:54:38,160 --> 01:54:40,480
Speaker 1: where different local groups start to take sides, and that

1808
01:54:40,520 --> 01:54:44,080
Speaker 1: increases the level of violence at the local level and

1809
01:54:44,080 --> 01:54:48,200
Speaker 1: in communities suffer greatly. Um. And that's also a consequence

1810
01:54:48,240 --> 01:54:50,440
Speaker 1: of like the kingpin strategy, right, like this idea that

1811
01:54:50,480 --> 01:54:53,040
Speaker 1: if you take down the perceived leader of a drug

1812
01:54:53,120 --> 01:54:56,440
Speaker 1: trafficking organization, that's somehow going to have an impact on

1813
01:54:56,560 --> 01:54:59,480
Speaker 1: drug production. You know what actually happens that it fragments

1814
01:54:59,520 --> 01:55:02,040
Speaker 1: the organiza ation and it creates more violence at the

1815
01:55:02,080 --> 01:55:04,120
Speaker 1: local level. Well, at the same time, it gives a

1816
01:55:04,200 --> 01:55:07,000
Speaker 1: chance to like xd agents to go on like you know,

1817
01:55:07,200 --> 01:55:08,960
Speaker 1: national media and be like, oh, yes, the capture of

1818
01:55:09,000 --> 01:55:11,520
Speaker 1: the chapel is gonna have a great impact the drug trade. No,

1819
01:55:11,640 --> 01:55:14,600
Speaker 1: well not like it increases the violence. And I think

1820
01:55:14,600 --> 01:55:16,760
Speaker 1: that the thing that that that's very clear from this article.

1821
01:55:16,760 --> 01:55:18,280
Speaker 1: And I think it's clear if you you know, if

1822
01:55:18,320 --> 01:55:20,240
Speaker 1: you look at the drug trade, is it's like, no,

1823
01:55:20,800 --> 01:55:22,960
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's largely economic stuff. And like one

1824
01:55:23,000 --> 01:55:25,360
Speaker 1: of the things you're talking about is is you know

1825
01:55:25,440 --> 01:55:27,360
Speaker 1: it is that these peasants who are the people who

1826
01:55:27,360 --> 01:55:29,240
Speaker 1: have been able to hold onto the collective land basically

1827
01:55:29,840 --> 01:55:32,480
Speaker 1: get forced by the Lamb bankes to like produce sesame

1828
01:55:32,520 --> 01:55:33,920
Speaker 1: and it's like they can't make any money off of

1829
01:55:33,960 --> 01:55:38,400
Speaker 1: it and don't I don't know how directly, it looked

1830
01:55:38,440 --> 01:55:40,120
Speaker 1: to me a lot like like that was directly one

1831
01:55:40,160 --> 01:55:43,680
Speaker 1: of the things that starts to lead to the shift

1832
01:55:43,680 --> 01:55:45,120
Speaker 1: to the drug trade there, because you have all these

1833
01:55:45,160 --> 01:55:51,520
Speaker 1: people locked into this crop that like just can't support them. Yeah. Yeah,

1834
01:55:51,560 --> 01:55:54,600
Speaker 1: and it's it's just the bigger story there is is

1835
01:55:54,600 --> 01:55:57,959
Speaker 1: really the failure of the post revolutionary Mexican state too

1836
01:55:58,720 --> 01:56:02,960
Speaker 1: um to really help for agricultural production at the level

1837
01:56:03,040 --> 01:56:05,880
Speaker 1: of of these small holding peasants and and these rural

1838
01:56:05,960 --> 01:56:09,160
Speaker 1: communities that are these ahelos who have received land from

1839
01:56:09,160 --> 01:56:12,360
Speaker 1: the Mexican state. UM. If anything, most of the state

1840
01:56:12,440 --> 01:56:17,000
Speaker 1: subsidies in the state structure, state support for agriculture from

1841
01:56:17,040 --> 01:56:19,960
Speaker 1: the forties, you know, up until the eighties, that was

1842
01:56:19,960 --> 01:56:23,400
Speaker 1: all directed to big agro businesses that were producing export

1843
01:56:23,440 --> 01:56:26,000
Speaker 1: crops in places like Sea A, Right, they're producing winter

1844
01:56:26,040 --> 01:56:28,280
Speaker 1: crops for the American market or winter fruit for the

1845
01:56:28,280 --> 01:56:31,480
Speaker 1: American market. Right. So in the absence of like meaningful

1846
01:56:31,520 --> 01:56:35,120
Speaker 1: state support for small holding agriculture, that small holding agricultural

1847
01:56:35,160 --> 01:56:39,120
Speaker 1: sector that is meant to feed Mexico um. You know,

1848
01:56:39,280 --> 01:56:41,280
Speaker 1: some of these these farmers in a place like you

1849
01:56:42,000 --> 01:56:44,160
Speaker 1: and they'll say, okay, well, we were growing this thing

1850
01:56:44,240 --> 01:56:47,400
Speaker 1: that the the Agricultural Bank is telling us to grow, sessame,

1851
01:56:47,480 --> 01:56:49,080
Speaker 1: but we're not making a lot of money off of it.

1852
01:56:49,120 --> 01:56:50,760
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, by the late sixties, they

1853
01:56:50,760 --> 01:56:53,920
Speaker 1: see that marijuana production is is really increasing due to

1854
01:56:53,960 --> 01:56:57,840
Speaker 1: American demand. If I can do both things, you know,

1855
01:56:57,840 --> 01:56:59,520
Speaker 1: I'm gonna make a lot of money and I'm gonna

1856
01:56:59,520 --> 01:57:02,600
Speaker 1: allow my family to make a pretty good living while

1857
01:57:02,680 --> 01:57:05,000
Speaker 1: staying in the countryside, while not having to migrate to

1858
01:57:05,080 --> 01:57:08,120
Speaker 1: Mexico City, or while not having to migrate to these

1859
01:57:08,160 --> 01:57:11,280
Speaker 1: agriculture fields in northern Mexico or even into the United States.

1860
01:57:11,600 --> 01:57:15,360
Speaker 1: So because it's like really rational economic response to to

1861
01:57:15,360 --> 01:57:18,240
Speaker 1: to a broader macroeconomic situation that has put them in

1862
01:57:18,240 --> 01:57:21,600
Speaker 1: that position. The and and you still see this to

1863
01:57:21,640 --> 01:57:25,160
Speaker 1: this day, right, these these small farmers, they still own

1864
01:57:25,200 --> 01:57:28,240
Speaker 1: their land. They'll grow certain crops on it and it's

1865
01:57:28,240 --> 01:57:31,000
Speaker 1: almost serves as a shield for um, you know, the

1866
01:57:31,040 --> 01:57:33,440
Speaker 1: opium poppies that they're growing on the same plot of land,

1867
01:57:33,440 --> 01:57:35,680
Speaker 1: but in a part that's a little you know, harder

1868
01:57:35,680 --> 01:57:38,680
Speaker 1: to access, and it's a little bit more hidden, right, Um,

1869
01:57:38,720 --> 01:57:41,200
Speaker 1: but it's it's it's trying to find a way at

1870
01:57:41,280 --> 01:57:44,120
Speaker 1: a bottom to make a dignifity, you know, how to

1871
01:57:44,200 --> 01:57:46,280
Speaker 1: make a life of dignity for your family when you're

1872
01:57:46,320 --> 01:57:48,520
Speaker 1: living in the in the countryside, when you're living in

1873
01:57:48,520 --> 01:57:52,400
Speaker 1: a place like and then you see that, you know,

1874
01:57:52,440 --> 01:57:54,840
Speaker 1: the Getingos are going crazy over a cap goo gold

1875
01:57:55,240 --> 01:57:58,280
Speaker 1: in the late sixties. Um, and you have uh, you

1876
01:57:58,280 --> 01:58:01,080
Speaker 1: know North Getingo traffic is coming into get Ready with

1877
01:58:01,160 --> 01:58:04,520
Speaker 1: new seeds. Um or you have set lewnce is coming

1878
01:58:04,560 --> 01:58:06,680
Speaker 1: into your state saying, you know, grow these here are

1879
01:58:06,680 --> 01:58:10,280
Speaker 1: some marijuana sees grow that strain um, you know, and

1880
01:58:10,560 --> 01:58:13,400
Speaker 1: they can buy off you know, local politicians and soldiers

1881
01:58:13,400 --> 01:58:15,880
Speaker 1: and police. That's that's one of the ways that you

1882
01:58:15,920 --> 01:58:21,600
Speaker 1: get the emergence of industrial proportion production of marijuana and

1883
01:58:21,600 --> 01:58:24,440
Speaker 1: and opium poppies. And in the sixties and seventies and

1884
01:58:24,480 --> 01:58:27,400
Speaker 1: again at the same time that this massive dirty war

1885
01:58:27,480 --> 01:58:30,680
Speaker 1: is being waged against two different peasant guerilla movements. Right,

1886
01:58:30,720 --> 01:58:33,960
Speaker 1: So it's like a really messy like social matrix that's

1887
01:58:33,960 --> 01:58:36,880
Speaker 1: occurring at the same time. I guess one everything I

1888
01:58:36,880 --> 01:58:41,879
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about was about how the political parties

1889
01:58:42,200 --> 01:58:46,040
Speaker 1: sort of work into this because I guess, like my

1890
01:58:46,280 --> 01:58:49,200
Speaker 1: experience with this sort of like the kind of like

1891
01:58:49,320 --> 01:58:52,640
Speaker 1: narco state fusions with like twenties and thirties China and there,

1892
01:58:52,680 --> 01:58:56,960
Speaker 1: it's like like you're you're I don't know, I mean,

1893
01:58:56,960 --> 01:59:01,600
Speaker 1: the Communists have an actual independent political outside of like

1894
01:59:01,600 --> 01:59:03,640
Speaker 1: like the Green Gang, but like the k MT, it's

1895
01:59:03,720 --> 01:59:07,920
Speaker 1: like like this is basically just a like like this

1896
01:59:08,080 --> 01:59:10,680
Speaker 1: like this is this is just like an ARCO organization

1897
01:59:10,760 --> 01:59:14,000
Speaker 1: with like a flag planted on it. And I'm wondering

1898
01:59:14,120 --> 01:59:19,280
Speaker 1: how like on what end of the scale we're working

1899
01:59:19,320 --> 01:59:21,640
Speaker 1: with with the p R and also also like with

1900
01:59:21,640 --> 01:59:24,520
Speaker 1: with the other Mexican parties, because it seems like there

1901
01:59:24,520 --> 01:59:27,400
Speaker 1: are like parts of like a functional state app like

1902
01:59:27,640 --> 01:59:29,800
Speaker 1: a party state appartus or like a party apparatus, and

1903
01:59:29,840 --> 01:59:32,240
Speaker 1: then parts of it that are just like this is

1904
01:59:32,280 --> 01:59:36,240
Speaker 1: a cartel. Yeah, it's it's that's a huge question. It's

1905
01:59:36,280 --> 01:59:39,840
Speaker 1: it's um yes, I've really resistant. No, no, no no, it's

1906
01:59:39,880 --> 01:59:44,600
Speaker 1: all good. I've I've stopped understanding this within the framework

1907
01:59:44,600 --> 01:59:46,600
Speaker 1: of like an ARCO state, right, because to think about

1908
01:59:46,600 --> 01:59:50,160
Speaker 1: an ARCO state, you really have to think about how

1909
01:59:50,200 --> 01:59:53,640
Speaker 1: a state was captured by these drug trafficking organizations. And

1910
01:59:53,640 --> 01:59:56,600
Speaker 1: and I historically and currently, I don't think that describes

1911
01:59:56,640 --> 01:59:59,320
Speaker 1: what's what's happening in Mexico. Um, I think what you

1912
01:59:59,400 --> 02:00:00,960
Speaker 1: would and it and it goes back to the question

1913
02:00:00,960 --> 02:00:03,600
Speaker 1: of what is the state, right, like the questions like

1914
02:00:05,240 --> 02:00:08,880
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be thinking about this decade. Right, but because

1915
02:00:08,920 --> 02:00:11,520
Speaker 1: you have, you know you have? It depends on what

1916
02:00:11,680 --> 02:00:13,760
Speaker 1: part of the Mexican state you're also referring to. Right.

1917
02:00:13,800 --> 02:00:15,760
Speaker 1: So if we're talking about the military, the military has

1918
02:00:15,840 --> 02:00:17,840
Speaker 1: all segments of the military. I have always had an

1919
02:00:17,840 --> 02:00:20,920
Speaker 1: important role to play in the production and trafficking of

1920
02:00:21,520 --> 02:00:24,840
Speaker 1: narcotics from Mexico into the US from the from like

1921
02:00:24,880 --> 02:00:28,600
Speaker 1: the nineteen tens, right, the military governor of Baja California,

1922
02:00:28,960 --> 02:00:32,640
Speaker 1: this guy by the name of Colonel Estevan Kantu. He

1923
02:00:32,760 --> 02:00:36,960
Speaker 1: was helping traffic opium um into the United States during

1924
02:00:36,960 --> 02:00:40,040
Speaker 1: the Mexican Revolution. Right, And this has been a constant rum.

1925
02:00:40,440 --> 02:00:42,960
Speaker 1: The guys that I talked about in my article, this

1926
02:00:43,040 --> 02:00:46,920
Speaker 1: guy Um who ends up he he's a general by

1927
02:00:46,920 --> 02:00:49,240
Speaker 1: the time he's he's arrested in two dozen two. But

1928
02:00:49,280 --> 02:00:53,919
Speaker 1: this guy, Mario Costa, he was like the main counter insurgent,

1929
02:00:54,040 --> 02:00:57,760
Speaker 1: theorist and and and and bright mind of the Mexican

1930
02:00:57,800 --> 02:00:59,839
Speaker 1: military that gets sent to get right on the seventies

1931
02:00:59,840 --> 02:01:02,640
Speaker 1: to wipe out these different guerrilla movements. But he's after

1932
02:01:02,680 --> 02:01:05,160
Speaker 1: they wipe out the gerrilla movements, he stays on. He

1933
02:01:05,280 --> 02:01:07,520
Speaker 1: serves as as a kind of like the leader of

1934
02:01:07,560 --> 02:01:09,200
Speaker 1: the state police forces. And what do he starts to do.

1935
02:01:09,280 --> 02:01:12,600
Speaker 1: He starts to buy up land allegedly that will start

1936
02:01:12,600 --> 02:01:16,000
Speaker 1: producing opium poppies and marijuana. And this guy from the

1937
02:01:16,080 --> 02:01:19,120
Speaker 1: late seventies up until he's arrested in two thousand, it's

1938
02:01:19,120 --> 02:01:21,440
Speaker 1: pretty clear they had he had been collaborating with different

1939
02:01:21,520 --> 02:01:26,320
Speaker 1: narco trafficking organizations. He gets arrested by his own military

1940
02:01:26,440 --> 02:01:29,280
Speaker 1: UM in two thousand because he it was pretty clear

1941
02:01:29,280 --> 02:01:32,000
Speaker 1: that he had been protecting and collaborating with this you

1942
02:01:32,080 --> 02:01:36,920
Speaker 1: have a guada's cartel and I'm a lookouenti UM, so

1943
02:01:37,120 --> 02:01:39,760
Speaker 1: you know one of these like anti anti guerrilla, anti

1944
02:01:39,800 --> 02:01:43,840
Speaker 1: nautical nauticles that will you know, actually get go to

1945
02:01:43,920 --> 02:01:46,880
Speaker 1: jail for about six years UM because it was pretty

1946
02:01:46,920 --> 02:01:49,240
Speaker 1: apparent that he had been for a long time collaborating

1947
02:01:49,240 --> 02:01:52,400
Speaker 1: and protecting the different narco trafficking organizations. Right, So that's

1948
02:01:52,400 --> 02:01:55,560
Speaker 1: the military. Then you have like the secret police that

1949
02:01:55,600 --> 02:01:59,160
Speaker 1: gets formed in Mexico, the DFS, with the help of

1950
02:01:59,200 --> 02:02:02,880
Speaker 1: the FBI. Um, the DFS becomes like this political police

1951
02:02:02,920 --> 02:02:05,000
Speaker 1: that the Mexican president can use to tamp down on

1952
02:02:05,000 --> 02:02:09,440
Speaker 1: political descent. They're the ones, you know spine surveillance by

1953
02:02:09,440 --> 02:02:12,720
Speaker 1: the sixties and seventies, are also torturing, disappearing, and with

1954
02:02:12,840 --> 02:02:14,880
Speaker 1: that level of impunity and power, they also get into

1955
02:02:14,920 --> 02:02:17,400
Speaker 1: the drug game. By the seventies and eighties. Um, you

1956
02:02:17,440 --> 02:02:20,160
Speaker 1: have the Federal Judicial Police. They're the ones who control

1957
02:02:20,320 --> 02:02:22,880
Speaker 1: for this during the fifties, sixties, and seventies. Really they're

1958
02:02:22,880 --> 02:02:25,800
Speaker 1: the ones who are controlling, um, the kickbacks that they're

1959
02:02:25,800 --> 02:02:28,840
Speaker 1: receiving from narco traffickers until the military moves in the

1960
02:02:28,880 --> 02:02:32,280
Speaker 1: seventies and takes over for them. Right. So the repressive

1961
02:02:32,280 --> 02:02:34,840
Speaker 1: apparatus is within the Mexican state of the twentieth century

1962
02:02:34,840 --> 02:02:37,320
Speaker 1: play a really key role, if not the role in

1963
02:02:37,440 --> 02:02:42,600
Speaker 1: helping foster create this this political economy of narcotics. Now,

1964
02:02:42,680 --> 02:02:44,560
Speaker 1: how do how do we view that in relation to

1965
02:02:45,120 --> 02:02:47,720
Speaker 1: the p r I. Right, the party that emerges from

1966
02:02:47,720 --> 02:02:50,880
Speaker 1: the Mexican Revolution, the party that will rule Mexico generally

1967
02:02:50,880 --> 02:02:52,720
Speaker 1: will say from the late twenties up until the year

1968
02:02:52,720 --> 02:02:55,560
Speaker 1: two thousand, well, you have pretty important, you know, political

1969
02:02:55,600 --> 02:02:58,520
Speaker 1: officials within the party throughout the twentie century that are

1970
02:02:58,600 --> 02:03:01,640
Speaker 1: directly linked to narco trafficers and directly linked to military

1971
02:03:01,640 --> 02:03:04,160
Speaker 1: officials who are obviously involved in the game as well.

1972
02:03:04,600 --> 02:03:06,360
Speaker 1: But at no level can we say it's a narco

1973
02:03:06,480 --> 02:03:09,520
Speaker 1: state because an archos having captured the state. It's actually

1974
02:03:09,520 --> 02:03:12,160
Speaker 1: the other way around. It's the Mexican post revolutionary state

1975
02:03:12,480 --> 02:03:15,080
Speaker 1: that's trying to get its hands around this thing that's

1976
02:03:15,120 --> 02:03:19,080
Speaker 1: growing within its own confines, and and and by and

1977
02:03:19,120 --> 02:03:21,200
Speaker 1: they lose control of it. Like by the late eighties

1978
02:03:21,200 --> 02:03:24,600
Speaker 1: and nineties, they've effectively lost control of this thing, and

1979
02:03:24,640 --> 02:03:27,560
Speaker 1: that's when you see the rise of these um highly

1980
02:03:27,600 --> 02:03:30,680
Speaker 1: centralized drug trafficking organizations like this. You have puttest cartel

1981
02:03:31,000 --> 02:03:34,560
Speaker 1: that's making a ton of money off the cocaine. So,

1982
02:03:34,760 --> 02:03:37,640
Speaker 1: I guess it seems like it's almost like you're dealing

1983
02:03:37,720 --> 02:03:41,000
Speaker 1: with from from from the very very local level, where

1984
02:03:41,040 --> 02:03:43,760
Speaker 1: you have these sort of landed elites and their gun slingers.

1985
02:03:43,800 --> 02:03:49,560
Speaker 1: It's like it's this almost sort of like like miniaturized

1986
02:03:49,640 --> 02:03:51,520
Speaker 1: fractal version of the state where's like you're getting these

1987
02:03:51,520 --> 02:03:55,320
Speaker 1: like very very small sort of like uh you know,

1988
02:03:55,360 --> 02:03:57,480
Speaker 1: like almost like fetal domains and that they sort of

1989
02:03:57,520 --> 02:04:00,600
Speaker 1: expand upwards and stand upwards. But yeah, and I guess

1990
02:04:00,640 --> 02:04:03,440
Speaker 1: the interesting part to me is is how like the

1991
02:04:03,480 --> 02:04:07,080
Speaker 1: paramilitary dynamics of that, and how how the power of

1992
02:04:07,120 --> 02:04:09,080
Speaker 1: these sort of land at least into power, Like how

1993
02:04:09,120 --> 02:04:12,480
Speaker 1: how it's like like the power like the the use

1994
02:04:12,520 --> 02:04:16,120
Speaker 1: of power from the top seems to strengthen them. Where

1995
02:04:16,160 --> 02:04:18,760
Speaker 1: you know, if if you're looking at this from like

1996
02:04:18,760 --> 02:04:23,120
Speaker 1: like how how this is supposed to work in theory,

1997
02:04:23,200 --> 02:04:25,120
Speaker 1: if you're someone who actually is like trying to eliminate

1998
02:04:25,120 --> 02:04:26,800
Speaker 1: the drug trade, you think would be the way around that,

1999
02:04:26,840 --> 02:04:29,600
Speaker 1: like the application of power would shatter, but it sort

2000
02:04:29,600 --> 02:04:32,480
Speaker 1: of doesn't. It causes these like these these build ups,

2001
02:04:32,560 --> 02:04:35,920
Speaker 1: these apparatus is and then they fragment and they rebuild again.

2002
02:04:35,920 --> 02:04:41,920
Speaker 1: But it's you're not ever actually dealing with these sort

2003
02:04:41,960 --> 02:04:47,440
Speaker 1: of like micro state like yeah, yeah, no, I think

2004
02:04:47,480 --> 02:04:52,200
Speaker 1: that's exactly right. And if anything, the paramilitarization is also

2005
02:04:52,280 --> 02:04:54,920
Speaker 1: like a like a long it's a process, right, So

2006
02:04:55,000 --> 02:04:57,800
Speaker 1: like the first if we can use this term, the

2007
02:04:57,880 --> 02:05:01,400
Speaker 1: first paramilitaries were used to wipe out a gray and

2008
02:05:01,440 --> 02:05:05,360
Speaker 1: reform minded campasinos in the thirties and forties. Um, but

2009
02:05:05,440 --> 02:05:08,480
Speaker 1: you don't really have like a paramilitarization of of of

2010
02:05:08,880 --> 02:05:12,600
Speaker 1: the drug trade in Mexico to a certain extent, because

2011
02:05:12,640 --> 02:05:14,360
Speaker 1: you have the military and the police to do your

2012
02:05:14,400 --> 02:05:17,400
Speaker 1: dirty work. Right if you're a nautical UM. That's a

2013
02:05:17,440 --> 02:05:19,400
Speaker 1: more recent phenomenon that you start to see in the

2014
02:05:19,480 --> 02:05:21,960
Speaker 1: nineties and especially the two thousands, so right that the

2015
02:05:21,960 --> 02:05:25,600
Speaker 1: case that everyone points to, are these the elite of

2016
02:05:25,640 --> 02:05:28,320
Speaker 1: the elite in the Mexican military, the gopis. These guys

2017
02:05:28,320 --> 02:05:31,640
Speaker 1: are like the Navy Seals or the Special Force, you know,

2018
02:05:32,000 --> 02:05:35,000
Speaker 1: the Army rangers, the Mexican military. A bunch of these

2019
02:05:35,000 --> 02:05:37,360
Speaker 1: guys in the mid to late nineties decide, you know what,

2020
02:05:37,560 --> 02:05:39,800
Speaker 1: we don't want to work for the Mexican military. We're

2021
02:05:39,800 --> 02:05:42,640
Speaker 1: just gonna We're gonna dessert, and we're gonna go hire

2022
02:05:42,680 --> 02:05:46,000
Speaker 1: ourselves out to the Gulf cartel. And they become really

2023
02:05:46,040 --> 02:05:50,080
Speaker 1: the first like paramilitary wing of a major drug trafficking organization.

2024
02:05:50,120 --> 02:05:53,320
Speaker 1: And these are guys, some of which probably most likely

2025
02:05:53,360 --> 02:05:55,879
Speaker 1: were trained at school the America's or received the American

2026
02:05:55,920 --> 02:06:00,760
Speaker 1: specialized training now switching sides and and and protecting a

2027
02:06:00,760 --> 02:06:03,600
Speaker 1: pretty powerful drug trafficking organization, like at the time in

2028
02:06:03,640 --> 02:06:06,840
Speaker 1: the nineties that was the Gulf Cartel. And these are

2029
02:06:06,840 --> 02:06:09,520
Speaker 1: the infamous set us, right, these are the zs UM.

2030
02:06:09,560 --> 02:06:11,240
Speaker 1: They're called the set us because that was like their

2031
02:06:11,280 --> 02:06:13,320
Speaker 1: military code. There was always a Z in front of

2032
02:06:13,320 --> 02:06:16,000
Speaker 1: a number UM. So Z one was kind of like

2033
02:06:16,040 --> 02:06:18,560
Speaker 1: the leader, the first guy who took twelve or thirteen

2034
02:06:18,600 --> 02:06:21,480
Speaker 1: guys with him to desert and they hired themselves out

2035
02:06:21,520 --> 02:06:24,800
Speaker 1: to this drug trafficking organization and they become like the

2036
02:06:24,920 --> 02:06:27,520
Speaker 1: paramilitary unit. The rest of the group see that and

2037
02:06:27,520 --> 02:06:29,920
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, ship, Like we gotta catch up, right,

2038
02:06:29,960 --> 02:06:33,280
Speaker 1: because these like and these guys the gop is, you know,

2039
02:06:33,320 --> 02:06:35,920
Speaker 1: they have counter insurgency experience. You know, they were the

2040
02:06:35,920 --> 02:06:38,400
Speaker 1: ones who were fighting against US and chiapas in the

2041
02:06:38,480 --> 02:06:40,600
Speaker 1: early nineties, right, they were the ones that they were

2042
02:06:40,640 --> 02:06:44,080
Speaker 1: sending to. Yeah, they were the ones who were fighting

2043
02:06:44,160 --> 02:06:47,200
Speaker 1: against the new cycle of guerrillas that emerging get read

2044
02:06:47,280 --> 02:06:50,000
Speaker 1: in the mid nineties, the e p R. And then

2045
02:06:50,000 --> 02:06:52,520
Speaker 1: when they're used for counting our context operations, they look

2046
02:06:52,560 --> 02:06:54,920
Speaker 1: at the situation they say, you know what we're not

2047
02:06:54,920 --> 02:06:56,320
Speaker 1: going to fight on the side of the military. We're

2048
02:06:56,320 --> 02:06:58,640
Speaker 1: gonna hire ourselves out to these this golf cartel. We're

2049
02:06:58,640 --> 02:07:01,200
Speaker 1: gonna make a ton of money. Um. But they have

2050
02:07:01,240 --> 02:07:03,320
Speaker 1: a lot of skills, right. So the rest of the

2051
02:07:03,400 --> 02:07:05,320
Speaker 1: so the rest of the drug traffic organizations see that,

2052
02:07:05,360 --> 02:07:08,040
Speaker 1: and they're like, we gotta play catch up, and and

2053
02:07:08,040 --> 02:07:10,720
Speaker 1: and and you see the paramilitarization of this conflict, and

2054
02:07:10,720 --> 02:07:14,000
Speaker 1: and in certain parts that's what's driving UM. I think

2055
02:07:14,040 --> 02:07:16,200
Speaker 1: has has played a really big role in driving some

2056
02:07:16,280 --> 02:07:18,440
Speaker 1: of the bloodshed and violence that we've seen in Mexico,

2057
02:07:18,480 --> 02:07:21,720
Speaker 1: particularly since two thousand six. Right, we can speak of

2058
02:07:22,600 --> 02:07:26,440
Speaker 1: probably four hundred thousand homicides since two thousand six, at

2059
02:07:26,520 --> 02:07:29,600
Speaker 1: least a hundred thousand disappearances. UM. A lot of that

2060
02:07:29,640 --> 02:07:31,480
Speaker 1: has to do with, you know, the people who are

2061
02:07:31,520 --> 02:07:35,960
Speaker 1: fighting our our paramilitaries, right, they're receiving training from Colombian

2062
02:07:36,000 --> 02:07:40,320
Speaker 1: military advisors, They're receiving training from Israeli military officials, they're

2063
02:07:40,320 --> 02:07:45,080
Speaker 1: receiving training from UM. Guatemalan special forces. These guys called

2064
02:07:45,120 --> 02:07:48,080
Speaker 1: the Kails, who committed some of the worst atrocities during

2065
02:07:48,080 --> 02:07:50,400
Speaker 1: the Guatemalan conflict of the of the of the seventies

2066
02:07:50,440 --> 02:07:54,280
Speaker 1: and eighties. Um, my families from men which is the

2067
02:07:54,360 --> 02:07:58,280
Speaker 1: state north of Guerto And I remember when probably two

2068
02:07:58,320 --> 02:08:01,120
Speaker 1: thousand five, six or seven was down there doing research

2069
02:08:01,120 --> 02:08:04,160
Speaker 1: and Disney family and they reported on the arrest of

2070
02:08:04,200 --> 02:08:09,360
Speaker 1: to Guatemalans and two Colombians in this random of far

2071
02:08:09,440 --> 02:08:11,400
Speaker 1: off part of meat truck. And you're like, what were

2072
02:08:11,440 --> 02:08:13,920
Speaker 1: these two Colombians and two Guatemalans doing there? While they

2073
02:08:13,920 --> 02:08:17,680
Speaker 1: were most likely like special X special forces in those countries,

2074
02:08:17,720 --> 02:08:21,600
Speaker 1: militaries who had been hired by local organizations to train

2075
02:08:22,160 --> 02:08:26,240
Speaker 1: their their their soldiers, to train their their paramilitaries. Um.

2076
02:08:26,280 --> 02:08:28,680
Speaker 1: So that that's I think that has driven a lot

2077
02:08:28,720 --> 02:08:31,120
Speaker 1: of the violence, right, And you see it's in terms

2078
02:08:31,160 --> 02:08:34,640
Speaker 1: of techniques they use, the weapons and armament, the logics

2079
02:08:34,840 --> 02:08:38,720
Speaker 1: of of how to take down their enemies. Yeah. I

2080
02:08:38,720 --> 02:08:43,000
Speaker 1: remember I read an article like okay, I've literally lost

2081
02:08:43,040 --> 02:08:45,280
Speaker 1: all since the time. I think it was like mid

2082
02:08:45,400 --> 02:08:49,480
Speaker 1: last year about a cartelogist basically running a military operation

2083
02:08:49,560 --> 02:08:56,240
Speaker 1: just shutting like shutting down a city. Um yeah, that

2084
02:08:56,280 --> 02:08:59,280
Speaker 1: was pre pandemic. That was it was pre pandemic. Oh

2085
02:08:59,320 --> 02:09:01,920
Speaker 1: my god. Yeah, I remember because I was on the

2086
02:09:02,320 --> 02:09:04,480
Speaker 1: day and the day after it happened. I think I

2087
02:09:04,520 --> 02:09:07,520
Speaker 1: spent way too much time on Twitter talking to people. Um.

2088
02:09:07,560 --> 02:09:11,360
Speaker 1: That was when I think you're referring to when the

2089
02:09:11,440 --> 02:09:15,960
Speaker 1: UH detachment from the Mexican military um in the city

2090
02:09:15,960 --> 02:09:18,960
Speaker 1: of Koya Khan, which is the capital of Sinaloa. Kulakhan

2091
02:09:19,080 --> 02:09:21,720
Speaker 1: is seen as like Sinaloa is the cradle of the

2092
02:09:21,760 --> 02:09:25,840
Speaker 1: Mexican drug trade, then like Kodiakan is the capital of it, right, Um,

2093
02:09:25,880 --> 02:09:28,040
Speaker 1: I think I think you're referring to when the Mexican

2094
02:09:28,080 --> 02:09:31,800
Speaker 1: military detachment tried to arrest one of the chapel right,

2095
02:09:31,840 --> 02:09:34,560
Speaker 1: and they actually found him, they localized it, they located him,

2096
02:09:34,560 --> 02:09:37,200
Speaker 1: and they tried to arrest him, and like the hills

2097
02:09:37,240 --> 02:09:40,000
Speaker 1: just came down on the city of Koyakon, and you

2098
02:09:40,080 --> 02:09:44,440
Speaker 1: had hundreds of of nauticles or paramilitaries who came down

2099
02:09:44,560 --> 02:09:48,920
Speaker 1: and essentially forced um, forced the military and the state

2100
02:09:48,960 --> 02:09:52,320
Speaker 1: to hand over at Chapel's son to them and and

2101
02:09:52,360 --> 02:09:55,720
Speaker 1: for and the reason why I was like, uh, you know,

2102
02:09:55,760 --> 02:09:57,600
Speaker 1: spent way too much time on social media going after

2103
02:09:57,640 --> 02:09:59,440
Speaker 1: people because people said, oh, this is an example of

2104
02:09:59,440 --> 02:10:01,880
Speaker 1: a failed state. Oh, look at the new president of

2105
02:10:01,920 --> 02:10:06,160
Speaker 1: Mexico and he's lost control of the of the state

2106
02:10:06,280 --> 02:10:10,000
Speaker 1: like he's tawtowing too nauticles and it was much more

2107
02:10:10,000 --> 02:10:13,200
Speaker 1: complicated than that. And something similar had already happened um

2108
02:10:13,200 --> 02:10:16,520
Speaker 1: in the previous administration where these different like particularly in

2109
02:10:16,520 --> 02:10:19,240
Speaker 1: the city of of Wadajada, where they even shot down

2110
02:10:19,240 --> 02:10:21,840
Speaker 1: a military helicopter or police helicopter and they and they

2111
02:10:22,080 --> 02:10:26,240
Speaker 1: essentially um shut down the entire city because one of

2112
02:10:26,280 --> 02:10:29,600
Speaker 1: their leaders have been captured. Okay, so what are what

2113
02:10:29,640 --> 02:10:31,320
Speaker 1: are the things the things that you you talked about the

2114
02:10:31,400 --> 02:10:34,320
Speaker 1: end of the article was about these this environmentalist group

2115
02:10:35,480 --> 02:10:39,200
Speaker 1: that gets like they all get arrested while like their

2116
02:10:39,240 --> 02:10:42,080
Speaker 1: their lawyer gets killed. After we starts talking about like

2117
02:10:42,160 --> 02:10:45,520
Speaker 1: connections between business owners and the party in the archo trades,

2118
02:10:45,760 --> 02:10:49,600
Speaker 1: I guess what do you how do you sort of

2119
02:10:49,680 --> 02:10:53,600
Speaker 1: like like, how how do you left movement sort of

2120
02:10:53,720 --> 02:10:56,080
Speaker 1: navigate this space because you have it seems like you

2121
02:10:56,160 --> 02:11:00,040
Speaker 1: have on the one hand, you know, you have of

2122
02:11:00,080 --> 02:11:02,440
Speaker 1: these premamilitaries and you also have a state that is

2123
02:11:03,520 --> 02:11:09,000
Speaker 1: like incredibly violently hostile to you. And I guess I

2124
02:11:09,040 --> 02:11:12,880
Speaker 1: don't know, Like I guess you sort of have the

2125
02:11:13,000 --> 02:11:15,920
Speaker 1: Zapatista model of this combination of sort of like arm

2126
02:11:16,040 --> 02:11:18,280
Speaker 1: struggle and social pressure. But I guess, like, how how

2127
02:11:18,360 --> 02:11:22,080
Speaker 1: how do people navigate this sort of like was it

2128
02:11:22,120 --> 02:11:25,160
Speaker 1: seems like like a really disastrous like a place to

2129
02:11:25,200 --> 02:11:29,120
Speaker 1: be trying to do leftist politics? And yeah, it's it's

2130
02:11:29,120 --> 02:11:31,880
Speaker 1: really difficult, right, And I think that's again going back

2131
02:11:31,920 --> 02:11:34,280
Speaker 1: to the thesis that the war on drugs is actually

2132
02:11:34,280 --> 02:11:38,520
Speaker 1: war on poor people. It's, um, you know, leftist movements,

2133
02:11:38,560 --> 02:11:41,440
Speaker 1: dissident movements in Mexico have to well, for while, I'll

2134
02:11:41,440 --> 02:11:43,960
Speaker 1: say this in a place like Garrido, it's these movements

2135
02:11:43,960 --> 02:11:49,840
Speaker 1: that have provided I think the the most accurate like

2136
02:11:50,680 --> 02:11:52,480
Speaker 1: X ray analysis of what the state is at the

2137
02:11:52,480 --> 02:11:56,280
Speaker 1: local level. Right. So, um, this this guerrilla leader that

2138
02:11:56,320 --> 02:11:59,120
Speaker 1: I talked about in the article, Commandant Ramo, who who

2139
02:11:59,160 --> 02:12:01,520
Speaker 1: was around in the late two thousand seven dozen eight,

2140
02:12:01,600 --> 02:12:04,200
Speaker 1: does nine like based on his travels in the mountains

2141
02:12:04,200 --> 02:12:06,160
Speaker 1: of Guerrero and kind of like the actions that he

2142
02:12:06,200 --> 02:12:07,960
Speaker 1: was engaged in for him, it was very clear that

2143
02:12:08,000 --> 02:12:11,680
Speaker 1: the military was collaborating with all a narco trafficking organizations,

2144
02:12:11,720 --> 02:12:15,040
Speaker 1: not just the one, not just like the most powerful one. Right.

2145
02:12:15,080 --> 02:12:16,480
Speaker 1: So at the national level, there was a lot of

2146
02:12:16,480 --> 02:12:19,280
Speaker 1: discourse of well, this dark drug trafficking organization is going

2147
02:12:19,320 --> 02:12:21,720
Speaker 1: at it with this one in a place that Garrido,

2148
02:12:21,800 --> 02:12:23,760
Speaker 1: this guerrilla leader, looks at the situation, he's like, actually,

2149
02:12:23,800 --> 02:12:26,200
Speaker 1: they're all working together. And not only that, but they

2150
02:12:26,200 --> 02:12:28,200
Speaker 1: have the police in the military, and what are they doing.

2151
02:12:29,080 --> 02:12:32,360
Speaker 1: They are, um, going after poor communities up in the

2152
02:12:32,360 --> 02:12:35,080
Speaker 1: mountains who don't want to grow opium poppies or who

2153
02:12:35,080 --> 02:12:39,480
Speaker 1: want to organize a different way, an alternative model of

2154
02:12:39,480 --> 02:12:42,960
Speaker 1: of of living, of social reproduction. Um. What they'll say is,

2155
02:12:43,680 --> 02:12:46,000
Speaker 1: you know, uh, the what the military is doing in

2156
02:12:46,040 --> 02:12:48,880
Speaker 1: terms of drug interdiction is they'll only go and and

2157
02:12:48,880 --> 02:12:53,560
Speaker 1: and burn some opium poppy fields and not others. And

2158
02:12:53,600 --> 02:12:55,760
Speaker 1: that's because the owner of that well popiu poppy feel

2159
02:12:55,800 --> 02:12:59,480
Speaker 1: that they burn didn't pay up. Um. So you know, now,

2160
02:12:59,680 --> 02:13:02,520
Speaker 1: current movements in Garretro partically indigenous moves and Grello. There's

2161
02:13:02,520 --> 02:13:05,080
Speaker 1: a recent report that that an indigenous group just put

2162
02:13:05,080 --> 02:13:09,840
Speaker 1: out and they're linked to the Congress CO. The C

2163
02:13:10,040 --> 02:13:14,640
Speaker 1: and I came the acronym um where they talk about

2164
02:13:15,520 --> 02:13:19,400
Speaker 1: a criminal state existing in in the in the part

2165
02:13:19,440 --> 02:13:23,000
Speaker 1: of guerreron As, Montana, which is a heavily indigenous area

2166
02:13:23,080 --> 02:13:24,920
Speaker 1: on the border on the eastern part of the state.

2167
02:13:25,480 --> 02:13:27,800
Speaker 1: And what they say is what we see here is

2168
02:13:28,120 --> 02:13:34,240
Speaker 1: uh an alliance between nauticles UM, political parties, military detachments

2169
02:13:34,280 --> 02:13:38,360
Speaker 1: and transnational corporations UM and so and and in Gerello.

2170
02:13:38,400 --> 02:13:41,120
Speaker 1: Those transnational corporations are usually have something to do with

2171
02:13:41,160 --> 02:13:46,680
Speaker 1: mining and they're usually Canadian UM. So how do you

2172
02:13:46,760 --> 02:13:50,480
Speaker 1: navigate that? Like that is like like the correlation of forces,

2173
02:13:50,520 --> 02:13:52,240
Speaker 1: if we want to use that kind of terminology. Like

2174
02:13:52,360 --> 02:13:55,920
Speaker 1: from a perspective of a group that wants to resist this,

2175
02:13:56,600 --> 02:13:59,360
Speaker 1: it's it's it's damn near impossible, right, Like you have

2176
02:13:59,640 --> 02:14:03,000
Speaker 1: every thing going against you, and yet Ingerero people are

2177
02:14:03,040 --> 02:14:05,400
Speaker 1: still resisting, right. You have the students of at Napa,

2178
02:14:05,720 --> 02:14:09,960
Speaker 1: they're still protesting, they're still organizing, even after the disappearance

2179
02:14:09,960 --> 02:14:12,920
Speaker 1: of their forty three comrades back in September, and we

2180
02:14:12,960 --> 02:14:15,480
Speaker 1: still don't have a clear answer as to what happened. Um,

2181
02:14:15,560 --> 02:14:18,920
Speaker 1: you still have you know, you have the model of

2182
02:14:18,920 --> 02:14:21,959
Speaker 1: of a Tommy that like that that certain indigenous communities,

2183
02:14:22,000 --> 02:14:24,960
Speaker 1: like the community in Chadan and have have practice which

2184
02:14:25,040 --> 02:14:27,840
Speaker 1: is essentially they kick out all political parties, they kick

2185
02:14:27,880 --> 02:14:31,080
Speaker 1: out all police officers, and they self organized at the

2186
02:14:31,080 --> 02:14:34,360
Speaker 1: communal level almost like a community police force, and you

2187
02:14:34,400 --> 02:14:37,240
Speaker 1: see that in Guerrero as well. There's all you know,

2188
02:14:37,280 --> 02:14:39,880
Speaker 1: there's there's challenges with that. There's a that usually brings

2189
02:14:39,880 --> 02:14:42,080
Speaker 1: on a lot of violence. And the people of Chadan

2190
02:14:42,160 --> 02:14:45,600
Speaker 1: have really suffered for for trying to go this, for

2191
02:14:45,720 --> 02:14:48,200
Speaker 1: trying to protect themselves, right, they've they've suffered a lot

2192
02:14:48,200 --> 02:14:51,560
Speaker 1: of casualties. Um. And there you have a uh, this

2193
02:14:51,680 --> 02:14:56,160
Speaker 1: combination of like narticles and illegal logging, right and and

2194
02:14:56,200 --> 02:14:57,840
Speaker 1: so the community there on the one hand is trying

2195
02:14:57,880 --> 02:15:00,280
Speaker 1: to protect their ecology, but they're also trying to offend

2196
02:15:00,320 --> 02:15:03,360
Speaker 1: themselves from nauticals who have taken over local political parties

2197
02:15:03,400 --> 02:15:05,240
Speaker 1: and they don't want them in their in their town.

2198
02:15:05,720 --> 02:15:08,200
Speaker 1: In Guereto, you have community police forces and you've had

2199
02:15:08,240 --> 02:15:12,880
Speaker 1: them since the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties, um. But

2200
02:15:14,040 --> 02:15:17,280
Speaker 1: that's raised a lot of issues in terms of you know,

2201
02:15:17,320 --> 02:15:20,720
Speaker 1: what happens when one community police force gets cooputive or

2202
02:15:21,440 --> 02:15:24,000
Speaker 1: co oputive or corrupted by a political party or by

2203
02:15:24,040 --> 02:15:27,280
Speaker 1: even a nautical and then that that group is used

2204
02:15:27,320 --> 02:15:30,120
Speaker 1: to hit against other community groups who are who are

2205
02:15:30,160 --> 02:15:33,000
Speaker 1: still trying to organize for for for a radical alternative.

2206
02:15:33,720 --> 02:15:37,160
Speaker 1: So it's it's it's on one level, it's really depressing, right,

2207
02:15:37,200 --> 02:15:41,360
Speaker 1: because everything is stacked against groups and communities and organizations

2208
02:15:41,360 --> 02:15:43,080
Speaker 1: in a place like Geretta who want a better world,

2209
02:15:43,120 --> 02:15:45,760
Speaker 1: who want to create a better world. But in the

2210
02:15:45,760 --> 02:15:50,480
Speaker 1: longer scope of Gueretto's history, they still resist. They still resist.

2211
02:15:50,560 --> 02:15:52,600
Speaker 1: And to me, that's one of the things that fascinates

2212
02:15:52,640 --> 02:15:55,600
Speaker 1: me about this place and about its people, about its communities,

2213
02:15:56,080 --> 02:15:58,280
Speaker 1: that the odds have always been stacked against them, and

2214
02:15:58,320 --> 02:16:03,800
Speaker 1: nonetheless they still resist, they still try to um against

2215
02:16:03,800 --> 02:16:07,080
Speaker 1: overwhelming odds. They still try to carve out a better,

2216
02:16:08,160 --> 02:16:11,680
Speaker 1: more just more dignified existence for them and for their communities,

2217
02:16:11,800 --> 02:16:15,320
Speaker 1: even at great risk, you know, for their well being,

2218
02:16:15,760 --> 02:16:19,520
Speaker 1: and they're willing to risk everything. So they're still there.

2219
02:16:20,160 --> 02:16:23,000
Speaker 1: They're still there, even though the forces that they're facing

2220
02:16:23,040 --> 02:16:31,040
Speaker 1: are are extremely powerful. Yeah. I think that's a surprisingly

2221
02:16:31,120 --> 02:16:34,440
Speaker 1: hopeful note to end on, which is that, Yeah, it's

2222
02:16:34,480 --> 02:16:38,240
Speaker 1: even like, you know, places with just incredible concentrations of

2223
02:16:38,320 --> 02:16:41,440
Speaker 1: violence and different kinds of power against you, that people,

2224
02:16:42,920 --> 02:16:47,280
Speaker 1: people are people continue to fight. Yeah, Yeah, I think

2225
02:16:47,320 --> 02:16:49,280
Speaker 1: that's I think that's one of the lessons that we

2226
02:16:49,320 --> 02:16:52,680
Speaker 1: definitely get from a place like get Rid all Um

2227
02:16:52,800 --> 02:16:54,520
Speaker 1: or a place like Chiapa's right with the with the

2228
02:16:54,600 --> 02:16:57,520
Speaker 1: Abatistas who are still there, who have still managed to

2229
02:16:57,520 --> 02:17:00,200
Speaker 1: read I mean, they've managed to reproduce themselves generation only,

2230
02:17:00,240 --> 02:17:06,400
Speaker 1: which is really difficult for an armed um Uh insurrectionary group. Right, Like,

2231
02:17:06,440 --> 02:17:09,400
Speaker 1: they've managed to do that, and and and and to

2232
02:17:09,560 --> 02:17:12,320
Speaker 1: carve out at great cost as well. Right, they're currently

2233
02:17:12,440 --> 02:17:15,480
Speaker 1: right now suffering. They've been suffering for for more than

2234
02:17:15,480 --> 02:17:17,760
Speaker 1: a decade of low intensity warfare that's been waged by

2235
02:17:17,760 --> 02:17:21,280
Speaker 1: the military and their paramilitaries. But they're still there with

2236
02:17:21,360 --> 02:17:23,640
Speaker 1: their example, right, And I think part of the power

2237
02:17:24,240 --> 02:17:27,800
Speaker 1: of them and the people is their example alone is

2238
02:17:27,840 --> 02:17:30,720
Speaker 1: threatening to power to the powers that be, and and

2239
02:17:30,760 --> 02:17:33,879
Speaker 1: that's why that there's always an effort to exterminate them.

2240
02:17:33,920 --> 02:17:38,200
Speaker 1: So just by virtue of surviving and and and defending themselves, Um,

2241
02:17:38,200 --> 02:17:40,520
Speaker 1: that's like a small it seems like a small thing.

2242
02:17:40,640 --> 02:17:43,200
Speaker 1: But but they're providing an alternative. And I think that's

2243
02:17:43,200 --> 02:17:46,840
Speaker 1: where there their example is really important. And I think

2244
02:17:46,879 --> 02:17:48,800
Speaker 1: I think there is I think there's a real argument

2245
02:17:48,920 --> 02:17:52,560
Speaker 1: that the whole sort of the whole sort of anti globalization,

2246
02:17:52,800 --> 02:17:55,120
Speaker 1: like that wave of struggle like is something that was

2247
02:17:55,200 --> 02:17:57,040
Speaker 1: kicked off at the Deputistas and like, and not just

2248
02:17:57,080 --> 02:17:59,039
Speaker 1: on the sort of like they were the first people

2249
02:17:59,040 --> 02:18:01,360
Speaker 1: to go into revolt, but it's I mean explicitly like

2250
02:18:01,400 --> 02:18:05,360
Speaker 1: the way they brought you know, like social movements from

2251
02:18:05,360 --> 02:18:07,280
Speaker 1: across the world together and the way they you know,

2252
02:18:07,320 --> 02:18:09,880
Speaker 1: the way that they like had they got, the way

2253
02:18:09,879 --> 02:18:11,480
Speaker 1: they got people talking, the way they have people training

2254
02:18:11,480 --> 02:18:13,200
Speaker 1: each other, the techniques and the sort of ideas that

2255
02:18:13,200 --> 02:18:16,160
Speaker 1: they were exchanging that they like, like they they set

2256
02:18:16,200 --> 02:18:19,600
Speaker 1: off like a wave of revolt that lasted for like

2257
02:18:20,840 --> 02:18:23,480
Speaker 1: I don't know if you started in like nine, like

2258
02:18:23,520 --> 02:18:27,360
Speaker 1: the end of it's like two six. Yes, yeah, it was.

2259
02:18:27,520 --> 02:18:31,360
Speaker 1: It was incredible. Yeah, no, they I think they there

2260
02:18:31,640 --> 02:18:33,840
Speaker 1: and even if you want to go this might take

2261
02:18:33,879 --> 02:18:36,760
Speaker 1: us off topic a little bit, right, but like scholars

2262
02:18:36,800 --> 02:18:39,080
Speaker 1: who focus on like Venezuela would say, actually, the first

2263
02:18:39,160 --> 02:18:41,360
Speaker 1: one was the Karda Castle, right in the late eighties,

2264
02:18:41,360 --> 02:18:45,199
Speaker 1: when you have a popular rebellion in Karakas Venezuela against neoliberalism,

2265
02:18:45,240 --> 02:18:48,440
Speaker 1: against the liberal starity measures, right, and then so I've

2266
02:18:48,440 --> 02:18:52,280
Speaker 1: had that, I've had a talk with friends, will be like, yeah,

2267
02:18:53,040 --> 02:18:54,960
Speaker 1: were the first ones? They're like no, no, no, no, no,

2268
02:18:55,200 --> 02:18:58,120
Speaker 1: it started in Karaka eighty nine, I think is the

2269
02:18:58,160 --> 02:19:01,000
Speaker 1: kinda castle. But yeah, no, I think their global example

2270
02:19:01,040 --> 02:19:03,720
Speaker 1: it continues to be a really powerful one for me personally.

2271
02:19:03,760 --> 02:19:06,720
Speaker 1: It's like I still remember my parents had my parents

2272
02:19:06,720 --> 02:19:09,320
Speaker 1: are are migrants from Mexico. They had this this big

2273
02:19:09,360 --> 02:19:13,119
Speaker 1: satellite dish in our backyard so we can beam in uh,

2274
02:19:13,240 --> 02:19:16,640
Speaker 1: you know, TV stations from Mexico. And I remember January one,

2275
02:19:16,959 --> 02:19:20,800
Speaker 1: we woke up right groggy ley, uh, celebrate New Year's

2276
02:19:20,840 --> 02:19:22,960
Speaker 1: and my parents turned on the TV to see Mexico

2277
02:19:23,000 --> 02:19:26,360
Speaker 1: City news and there was Modocles, right, and there were

2278
02:19:26,440 --> 02:19:31,000
Speaker 1: the Sabbatista's um and there were then the Mexican politicians saying, no,

2279
02:19:31,080 --> 02:19:34,120
Speaker 1: don't believe what, don't believe your eyes? This isn't You

2280
02:19:34,200 --> 02:19:35,879
Speaker 1: had a guy, I remember you had a guy go

2281
02:19:36,000 --> 02:19:39,800
Speaker 1: on TV. I think saying something like this is not

2282
02:19:39,879 --> 02:19:42,320
Speaker 1: an indigenous movement, because if it was an indigenous movement,

2283
02:19:42,360 --> 02:19:45,920
Speaker 1: they would be using machete is not rifles. Something really condescending,

2284
02:19:46,200 --> 02:19:48,800
Speaker 1: like the level of racist condescension that came out of

2285
02:19:48,840 --> 02:19:53,000
Speaker 1: Mexican politicians and in in response to this movement, yum

2286
02:19:54,040 --> 02:19:56,360
Speaker 1: was was super high. Right. But I remember I was

2287
02:19:56,360 --> 02:19:58,080
Speaker 1: in junior high and I remember seeing it and I'm

2288
02:19:58,080 --> 02:20:01,280
Speaker 1: just like, the has to be something wrong for these

2289
02:20:01,320 --> 02:20:03,360
Speaker 1: people to do this right, And that just led me

2290
02:20:03,520 --> 02:20:05,520
Speaker 1: to want to do more research and to do more reading,

2291
02:20:06,040 --> 02:20:08,280
Speaker 1: and that I think is really powerful. I think I

2292
02:20:08,320 --> 02:20:10,720
Speaker 1: still think it's really powerful. So the more we can

2293
02:20:10,760 --> 02:20:14,000
Speaker 1: get the word out about these movements and in other

2294
02:20:14,000 --> 02:20:16,040
Speaker 1: parts of Latin America, I think, I think it's still

2295
02:20:16,080 --> 02:20:18,520
Speaker 1: really important. And I think especially today, we really we

2296
02:20:18,600 --> 02:20:21,600
Speaker 1: do need a bit more hope in these dark pandemic times.

2297
02:20:25,959 --> 02:20:28,320
Speaker 1: I was trying to figure out a speaking of hope

2298
02:20:28,440 --> 02:20:31,840
Speaker 1: segue and I couldn't. I couldn't quite get it. Do

2299
02:20:32,160 --> 02:20:33,640
Speaker 1: you do you have anything that you want to plug?

2300
02:20:33,840 --> 02:20:38,080
Speaker 1: Where can people find you? Yeah? Well, thank you so

2301
02:20:38,160 --> 02:20:39,760
Speaker 1: much for having me on this was This is a

2302
02:20:39,760 --> 02:20:43,440
Speaker 1: lot of fun. Um. You can find me on God

2303
02:20:43,480 --> 02:20:45,400
Speaker 1: like you can find me on Twitter. I think the pandemic,

2304
02:20:45,520 --> 02:20:48,040
Speaker 1: my Twitter consumption has really gone up. It's been powerful.

2305
02:20:48,120 --> 02:20:53,640
Speaker 1: But you can find me at Alexander Underscore Avena. Yeah. Um,

2306
02:20:54,040 --> 02:20:56,160
Speaker 1: then I want to plug. No. I think if you

2307
02:20:56,240 --> 02:20:59,240
Speaker 1: go on my Twitter page, you'll see you You'll be

2308
02:20:59,280 --> 02:21:00,920
Speaker 1: able to get the linked to the to the article

2309
02:21:00,959 --> 02:21:04,760
Speaker 1: that we've been talking today, um about about the drug

2310
02:21:05,240 --> 02:21:08,560
Speaker 1: from dirty war to drug war into um. I recently

2311
02:21:08,560 --> 02:21:12,480
Speaker 1: published a book review of this really fascinating book on

2312
02:21:12,520 --> 02:21:15,560
Speaker 1: the connection between the Israeli arms industry and like Cold

2313
02:21:15,560 --> 02:21:17,680
Speaker 1: War Latin America, So you can find that on my page.

2314
02:21:18,560 --> 02:21:21,199
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's I don't really have anything else to plug.

2315
02:21:22,959 --> 02:21:25,640
Speaker 1: Whenever I finished his damn book on the drug wars,

2316
02:21:26,400 --> 02:21:29,720
Speaker 1: have me back on and yeah, definitely tangible to the

2317
02:21:29,840 --> 02:21:33,880
Speaker 1: plug right now, it's just short little articles. Well, thank

2318
02:21:33,879 --> 02:21:36,800
Speaker 1: thank you again for coming on the show. Um yeah, this,

2319
02:21:36,920 --> 02:21:38,560
Speaker 1: this is, this has when they could happen here. You

2320
02:21:38,600 --> 02:21:41,560
Speaker 1: can find us in the usual places. If do you

2321
02:21:41,560 --> 02:21:44,000
Speaker 1: want to venture on social media for some reason, please don't.

2322
02:21:44,120 --> 02:21:49,200
Speaker 1: It's it's a bad place. But yeah, thank you and

2323
02:21:49,280 --> 02:22:04,680
Speaker 1: goodbye everyone. Ye hey, we'll be back Monday with more

2324
02:22:04,720 --> 02:22:07,400
Speaker 1: episodes every week from now until the heat death of

2325
02:22:07,440 --> 02:22:10,200
Speaker 1: the Universe. It could Happen Here is a production of

2326
02:22:10,240 --> 02:22:13,160
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. Or more podcasts from cool Zone Media,

2327
02:22:13,280 --> 02:22:15,720
Speaker 1: visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check

2328
02:22:15,800 --> 02:22:18,080
Speaker 1: us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

2329
02:22:18,160 --> 02:22:21,119
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources

2330
02:22:21,200 --> 02:22:23,760
Speaker 1: for It could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool Zone

2331
02:22:23,760 --> 02:22:26,560
Speaker 1: media dot com, slash sources, thanks for listening.