1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace in the last hours what 2 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: we have all been waiting on and arrest, finally at 3 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: arrest and the slayings of four beautiful Idaho students found 4 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: dead in their beds. I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. 5 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:34,240 Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation 6 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: and Serious XM one eleven. How did it go down? 7 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: Take a listen to our friends at FOXNAS. But Brian 8 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 1: Coburger is being held right now, just about twelve hours 9 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: after his arrest early this morning. This mystery, of course, 10 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: finally getting the break that we have all been waiting 11 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: for as federal, state, and local law enforcement descended upon 12 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: this area, taking him into custody twenty five hundred miles 13 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 1: away from the crime scene in Idaho, twenty five hundred 14 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: miles away. Joining me in I'll star Palem. But first 15 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: to Stephanie Pagona's crime reporter with Fox News Digital. Stephanie, 16 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: what happened three am? That's correct, Nancy, just around three am. 17 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: In fact, it might have been even a little earlier. 18 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: A man named Brian Christopher Coburger was taken into custody 19 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:30,919 Speaker 1: in Allbrightsville, Pennsylvania. That is nearly three thousand miles away, 20 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: in fact, much more more than twenty five hundred miles 21 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: away from the crime scene here in Moscow, Idaho. Now 22 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:42,680 Speaker 1: he remains in Pennsylvania as we speak. He is being 23 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: held without bond until he can appear in court on 24 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: Tuesday afternoon, when he will make his extradition hearing appearance. Now, 25 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: once he is in court for his extradition hearing, he 26 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: will have the chance either to waive his extradition or 27 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: not to waive his extradition. If he chooses to fight 28 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: his extradition, this could be a little bit of a 29 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: battle between crossecutors here to to push for his return 30 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: to Moscow. Okay, hold on, you know what everybody thinks 31 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: that extradition is so hard They take about fifteen minutes 32 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: for a full on extradition hearing. Let me go out 33 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 1: to Dell Carson, I profile a lawyer joining me out 34 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: of Jacksonville and former FBI agent, author of Arrest Proof Yourself. 35 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: He's at del Carson Law dot com. Dell, can we 36 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 1: just take off your defense at for a moment extradition hearing? 37 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: It's not are you guilty? Are you innocent? Is have 38 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: we broken any laws? Was there in illegal confession. Oh 39 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,080 Speaker 1: h w L No, all it is is I confirm 40 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: that you are, in fact Delle Carson. Admit your Del Carson. 41 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: I'll just do a fingerprint comparison right there in the courtroom. 42 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,040 Speaker 1: Right in the federal system, is called an identity hearing, 43 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 1: and you either are the person named in the warrant 44 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: or you're not. So there's a federal warrant, a youth 45 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: AFT warrant, an unlawful flight to avoid prosecution warrant issued 46 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: by the federal government, and the SOG team has been 47 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 1: following him for maybe two weeks, the Special Operations Group 48 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: out of the Bureau, tracking and watching him. It's going 49 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: to be fasting to find out what they overheard during 50 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 1: his conversations, if it was electronically monitored as well. Okay, no, 51 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 1: wait a minute, Del Carson. Do you have reason to 52 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: believe he was electronically monitored? Special operation groups do that, 53 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:30,119 Speaker 1: And if he's got a federal warrant out for him, 54 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: it's likely that they have the necessary search wart to 55 00:03:33,360 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: do those kinds of So let me go back to 56 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: Stephanie pagun Is joining us from Fox News Digital before 57 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: I go to the rest of the panel. Stephanie. I 58 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: heard del Carson say that he had been surveiled for 59 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,559 Speaker 1: about two weeks. I know that he had been surveilled 60 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: for four days because he up suddenly, he jumped up 61 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: and left where he was in Pullman, that's near Washington 62 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: State University. I guess he had what a house or 63 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: an apartment there, and then he had something to mommy's place. 64 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: So how long has it been since he left Washington State? 65 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: You know, it's hard to pinpoint exactly from law enforcement 66 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 1: when he drove or however he got home to Pennsylvania. 67 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 1: But I can say that just this morning, law enforcement, 68 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 1: including Laytalk County Prosecutor Bill Thompson, were at his apartment 69 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:30,479 Speaker 1: in Pullman, Washington. This is only a twenty one minute 70 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: drive eleven miles from the crime scene, and it is 71 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:39,040 Speaker 1: on WSU Pullman campus. He was a graduate student at 72 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: WSU Pullman. I was just there this morning where law 73 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,720 Speaker 1: enforcement were conducting or executing a search warrant at that apartment. 74 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: It was a much lower key scene than what we 75 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 1: have seen at eleven twenty two King Road, the scene 76 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: of the crimes, but we could see law enforcement going 77 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 1: in with protective gear and neighbors I can tell you 78 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:03,840 Speaker 1: were shocked. No one expected this from what we could tell, 79 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 1: and frankly, many people didn't even recognize mister Koburger. One 80 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: person said he had saw him going back and forth 81 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 1: from the mailbox to his apartment. But otherwise I'm hearing 82 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: this is a relatively quiet neighborhood that was definitely shocked 83 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: that this was happening. Letting me guess he's a loner, 84 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:27,840 Speaker 1: kept to himself, only spotty going back and forth to mailbox. 85 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 1: This is what I know so far. I know that 86 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 1: he's about six feet tall. It's a white male. I've 87 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: heard he's got blue eyes and brown hair. I'm looking 88 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 1: right at him. I can't make out his eye color. 89 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:39,480 Speaker 1: They appeared to be blue. I know that he was 90 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: a quote obsessive vegan. He is a libertarian, and he 91 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: got his master's degree from what I understand, at de 92 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: Sales in Pennsylvania, and was getting his PhD at WSU 93 00:05:55,839 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: Washington State University, about twelve miles away from the murder house. 94 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 1: I also know that he was working on a research 95 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 1: project in which he sent out questionnaires two criminals violent 96 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: criminals to better understand their emotions, their thinking, and their 97 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: decision making as they were committing a crime night. You 98 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 1: know what, I'm not a shrink, but I can tell 99 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: you this right now, a guy all wrapped up and 100 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: studying the thinking and the emotions of violent criminals got 101 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: way too wrapped up in it. And as pictures, he 102 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: looks very pale. Okay, yeah, as a matter of fact, 103 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: he does. Joining you right now, Cheryl McCullum, director of 104 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,919 Speaker 1: the Coldcase Research Institute. You can find her at Colcase 105 00:06:48,960 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 1: crimes dot org. Okay, Cheryl, jump in. Isn't it just 106 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 1: what we said? Look under mommy's bed, that's where the 107 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: killer will be hiding out. Absolutely, they always run to mama. 108 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:01,359 Speaker 1: What they're going to be doing right now on this guys, 109 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 1: they're going to be looking at his old line activity 110 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: to see whether or not he bought that knife, old line, 111 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: whether there's any connection with any type of writing on 112 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: his academic papers. He is not going to be able 113 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: to hide this fascination that he has. He's not going 114 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: to be able to do it. And furthermore, I believe 115 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 1: in that apartment they're going to find a lot of 116 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 1: things written down that are going to be able to 117 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: connect from dots for them there's no doubt in my mind. Well, 118 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: you know what, he seems to be very fastidious to 119 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: the nth degree. The fact that he was described what 120 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: about it, Jackie described as obsessively vegan. And he's only 121 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 1: seen by the neighbors going to and from the mailbox. 122 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: There's no mention as anybody heard about a girlfriend, a 123 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: x a high school sweetheart and anything. Is it possible 124 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: he's an end cell Joining me along with Dell Carson, 125 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, Stephanie pogonas is Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, 126 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet and 127 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: host of Body Bags the Joe Scott Morgan on iHeart Okay, 128 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: Joe Scott, we understand. Wait a minute, wait wait, wait, 129 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: hold on, Jo Scott, Stephanie Pogonis. The white Hyunday Elantra 130 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: was outside his home? Was it outside Mommy's home or 131 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,440 Speaker 1: was it outside his place in Pullman? And I guess 132 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: his place in Pullman was a house. He lived in 133 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: a house. He lived in the second floor apartment of 134 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: an apartment building on WSU campus. And yes, we are 135 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: hearing from multiple reports that the Hunday Elantra was taken 136 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 1: from the home in Pennsylvania, not Pullman, mommy's home. Hold on. 137 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 1: I'm making him a flow chart. Stephanie Begana's mommy's home. 138 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:47,319 Speaker 1: Who lives there? Does the mom and the dad live there? 139 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 1: It's unclear whether Momma died, but I do believe there 140 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: is a sibling who is also listed as living there 141 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 1: or in the things day. Now a question if there's 142 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:57,679 Speaker 1: not a mother or father there, whose home is that? 143 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 1: I know I've seen at least they should say records 144 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: show that a mother lives there. I just am not 145 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: positive about a second parental figure. Okay, Jackie is waving 146 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 1: at me, wildling in the background, trying to tell me, 147 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: are you saying it's the parents' home? Jack She's saying 148 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 1: she's found it's the parents' hum be curious to find 149 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:20,719 Speaker 1: out as the mom and dad were there, I mean, 150 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,440 Speaker 1: what about it. Nobody thought it was odd that he 151 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: came home and never went back. I also understand, Stephanie. 152 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 1: Did he just graduate with his PhD in December? You know, 153 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: I can't say for Suton for certain. Unfortunately, I don't 154 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: have that answer, but I know that he has lived 155 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 1: in the Pullman apartment for quite some time now, at 156 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: least several months from what I'm told now, I understood 157 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: that he got his masters from to Sales University in 158 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: le High, Pennsylvania in criminal justice and was trying to 159 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: get his doctorate degree. So if he got that, and 160 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 1: I've got May of twenty two, there's no way he 161 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: could have been could be through with his doctrine degree 162 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:08,439 Speaker 1: that quickly. So he's working on his doctrinate degree, Okay, 163 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan. So the car is parked in front 164 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: of mommy's house, you know, Joe Scott, you'd think a 165 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:21,719 Speaker 1: criminal justice major or criminology major would know to get 166 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 1: rid of the car. Huh, yeah, you would think. So. Uh. 167 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 1: What's curious about this is that is it does this 168 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,679 Speaker 1: go to his arrogance or does it go to his carelessness? 169 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: You know, he's had quite a bit of time with 170 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: his vehicle since this slaughter took place. He's traveled across 171 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 1: the country in it, Nancy, apparently. And but yet there 172 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: it sits, doesn't it? And so you're going to have connection, Nancy. 173 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: That car is a rolling crime scene and the fact 174 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: I like that crime scene. Okay, I'm stealing that you 175 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: didn't say that I did. And I think I think 176 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: that there's going to be a key, and not just 177 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 1: the physical evidence that can be found in there. Nancy. 178 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: What's fascinating is this long journey that was taken across 179 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,559 Speaker 1: the country. You know what it's reminding me of. It's 180 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: reminding me of um, Gabby Petito's fiance, Brian Laundry, who 181 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:25,680 Speaker 1: leaves her body out and dispersed camping in Wyoming and 182 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: then heads all the way across the country back to 183 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 1: Florida in the car, in the van in which he 184 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: likely murdered Gabby Petito. Go ahead, Jo Scott. You know 185 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: every every CCTV that he passed, every gas station that 186 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: he went to, every burger joint that he stopped at, 187 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 1: well not burger joints, cousin Vegan, wherever he went to dine, 188 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 1: all right to to you know, fuel himself. There's going 189 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 1: to be an electronic signature either it's gonna be documented. 190 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:58,079 Speaker 1: These will be his phone if he's got this thing 191 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: with him, it'll be pining a long way or hold on, 192 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 1: I'm getting another banner from Jackie. And you know I 193 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: can cut your guys, Mike, but I can't cut Jackie 194 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: how where she's sitting right in there? She's holding up 195 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: a sign that says Fellows. Student tells the New York 196 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 1: Times suspect had few friends at school. Okay, am I 197 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: smelling an in cell? Is that what I'm smelling? I'm 198 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: not sure, but I'm getting a whiff of something. Few friends, 199 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: According to The New York Times, he had this fellow 200 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 1: student says he appeared he wanted to socialize, but had 201 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 1: made offensive remarks in the past that had left him 202 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:39,959 Speaker 1: somewhat isolated. Offensive remarks in the past that left him isolated. 203 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: What were the offensive remarks, Jackie? Don't give me half 204 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 1: of the puzzle and make me go crazy for Pete's sake. Okay, 205 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,320 Speaker 1: back to you, just Scott, what were you saying? You know, 206 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: his image is going to be captured, the car's image, 207 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: the tag readers, all of that stuff. And this is 208 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,559 Speaker 1: documented all the way across the country. Nancy, We're talking 209 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: over two thousand miles. This would be you know, they 210 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: made a big deal, and I understand why they did it. 211 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: They were saying, remember they said they had the twenty 212 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: four mile loop that the cops had gone to around 213 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: Moscow where they've collected the CC Listen, in this case, 214 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 1: we're talking about over two thousand miles that they're going 215 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 1: to be collecting this videography of this trip along the way. 216 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 1: So yeah, there's a lot to be gleaned from this 217 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 1: car and his movements in it. Well, Joe Scott, they're 218 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: going to be looking for the blood residue in the car, 219 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: from the clothing you war when it got back in 220 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: the car after this flaw? Is this Delle Carson? Yeah, 221 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: you know what Dell Carson exactly when Joe Scott Morgan said, 222 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: a rolling crime scene, not just the car, but everything 223 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: in that Pullman apartment. Now, Stephanie Pogonis, when I say 224 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: Pullman is at the city of Pullman, is at the 225 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 1: Pullman campus, what do they mean by Pullman? So this 226 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 1: is located within the city of Pullman, but yes, it 227 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:59,559 Speaker 1: is on w Washington State University Pullman campus. This is 228 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: camp housing which is typically inhabited by graduate students, many 229 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 1: of whom have kids or families, or those who work 230 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: with the university. So, Nancy, from this guy while with you, 231 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:18,199 Speaker 1: I actually just heard from Washington State University. I want 232 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: to correct myself. You were correct. He had graduated just 233 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: in June twenty twenty two from the sales, but he 234 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: actually had completed his first semester as a PhD student 235 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 1: with Washington State University's Criminal Justice program. That was just 236 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: earlier this month that he completed his first semester. Right, 237 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: was I actually ride on something. I'm so happy. Keep 238 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: that clip. So he completed his first semester of his PhD. 239 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: Guys also with me Chris McDonough directtal Case Foundation, former 240 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: homicide detective, and I found him on the Interview Room podcast. 241 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: Chris mcdonnah, what do you make of all this? Well, 242 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: you know, Nancy just listening, I mean, all the ideas 243 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: that we've been talking about, the plus you know, waste 244 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: or two on this guy. He it's obvious he's an 245 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: ego driven type of killer. Right, and he thought about 246 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: doing this in a very cool headed reflection idea, meaning 247 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: he sat back, he processed, you know what direction he 248 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: was going to go. He obviously sounds like he had 249 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: the education behind it at least two, you know, think 250 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: through some ideas. So I'm going to lean on a 251 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: research that was done by Columbia University and doctor Gary Brocado, 252 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: who he mentioned years ago he has the largest database 253 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: of mass murders in the country. And if we look 254 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: at this four victims as a mass murder event, this 255 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: guy was on the road to becoming a serial killer 256 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: because all the indications are at this point, from what 257 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: I can find out, this guy had not killed before 258 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: because he had a very difficult time establishing the needed 259 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: relationships with other people. So that longer point you just 260 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: made a minute ago is right on target with this guy, 261 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: especially if he's living with his mom. Time Stories with 262 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Guys, we don't know who is living here, 263 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: but it's still listed according to Jackie as the parents home, 264 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: so either the mom and or the dad are living there. 265 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: We understand there's a sibling as well. No word yet 266 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: of any prior girlfriends or romances, no engagements, no nothing. Guys, 267 00:16:55,240 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: Let's take another Listen to our friend Laura Goal at 268 00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 1: Fox News the mugshot you've been seeing. Twenty eight year 269 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: old Brian Christopher Coburger was taken into custody three a 270 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 1: m southeast of Scranton, Pennsylvania, at a private residence on 271 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: a Fugitive from Justice warrant. Now, there are reports that 272 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 1: law enforcement also recovered a white vehicle you'll remember, a 273 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: white Hyundai Elantra, was the subject of a nationwide search 274 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:25,439 Speaker 1: after one that was spotted near the scene of the 275 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 1: crime in Moscow, Idaho, in the early morning hours of 276 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 1: November thirteenth, where four University of Idaho students were found 277 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: murdered inside their off campus rental home. Now, Coburger was 278 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 1: arraigned early this morning and sent here to the Monroe 279 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: County Correctional Facility pending extradition. After Okay, what's he charged with, 280 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 1: stephan Ifgonas tell us, he is charged with four counts 281 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: of felony murder, one count each for each of the 282 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 1: four victims. Of course, then he's also charged with committing burglary, 283 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,120 Speaker 1: and that is, of course, for breaking into the home 284 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 1: on November thirty, he allegedly, of course. Now, question, you 285 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:05,400 Speaker 1: said he's charged with felony murder. Is he charged with 286 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,439 Speaker 1: first degree murder or felony murder? How did they phrase 287 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: at Stephanie, I'm sorry I misspoke there. It is first 288 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:15,280 Speaker 1: degree murder, first degree murder, and felony burglary. Thank you 289 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: for calling me. Okay, no, no, actually, Stephanie, I'm glad. 290 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: I'm glad you did that because when this case goes 291 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: to trial, I predict these are just the initial charges. 292 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 1: I think when a grand jury here's the evidence, that 293 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: they're going to add felony murder to that charge. I 294 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: think they're going to charge him in the alternative, of course, 295 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: Dell Carson, when you've got to murder, one charge which 296 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 1: is premeditated, and that can be the premeditation can be 297 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: formed in a twinkling of a moment, the moment it 298 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:50,880 Speaker 1: takes you to raise the gun and pull the trigger 299 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: or blink your eye. Premeditation doesn't have a time on it. 300 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: So the fact that he broke into the home, and 301 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: it says, of course burg he is breaking entering a 302 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 1: home with the intent to commit a felony a crime 303 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: in sight, that's burglary, and this actually states that he 304 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 1: entered the home with the intent to commit murder, which 305 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: means he didn't try to sex assault anybody, he did 306 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 1: not try to take anything. He went in the home 307 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: with the intent to commit a murder. I think, of course, 308 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:32,439 Speaker 1: at trial, Dell Carson, they could put it to the 309 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 1: jury a felony murder as well, But they may go 310 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: ahead and charge felony murder with the underlying felony being burglary? 311 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: What about that, Dell Carson, Then you don't have to 312 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:46,199 Speaker 1: even prove the intent. They could certainly do that, you know, 313 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: when he's charged with the murder. Clearly it was organized, 314 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: Clearly it was planned. They're not going to have any 315 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 1: problem with that. My biggest curiosity is did he confess 316 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 1: he's been interviewed by if you speak as that said 317 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 1: that Chris McDonough. We were told that upon his arrest 318 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 1: he said, has anybody else been charged? Has anybody else 319 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: been arrested? That tells me is a sort of an admission, 320 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 1: an admission of sorts. But is there is it possible 321 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: there's another perp? Chris? Well, you know that's an interesting comment, 322 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:25,719 Speaker 1: right Nancy, I mean, is she saying that for again 323 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: that ego driven side of things, you know, like Dennis 324 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: Raider right BTK back in the day where he would say, 325 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 1: you know, every job, So that may be an insult 326 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 1: to his ego by making that comment. If they would 327 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: have responded, yeah, there are other people that were looking 328 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: at so it's gonna be interesting she how had unfold? 329 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: Now listen to this. I want everybody to weigh in 330 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 1: on this. Remember we're not having high tea at Windsor Castle. 331 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: What we understand is cops still searching for Idaho suspects weapon. 332 00:20:57,160 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 1: He charged with four counts of murder. They trace his 333 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:05,880 Speaker 1: white Hyundai too, his parents Pennsylvania address, and they cross 334 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 1: matched DNA found at the crime scene. Okay, Cherry'm gonna 335 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 1: call him jump in. Well, that's outstanding. So what that 336 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: means is you've got DNA in one spot, in DNA 337 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:21,440 Speaker 1: another spot and it matches. And you're you're saying, okay, 338 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 1: so this person went from A to B to see 339 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: areas in that home, and that cannot be overstated. You know, 340 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: that's one hundred percent. There's not going to be another 341 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: way that happened except that killer. So here's the no okay, 342 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: because if he's been in that apartment partying before his 343 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:46,400 Speaker 1: DNA please please stop. He only goes to the mailboxing back. 344 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,439 Speaker 1: He has not been in the house partying. Just stop 345 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: right there. This ain't a party guy. I mean, look 346 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: at him. Look at his mug shot. He looks very 347 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: free kid proper. I could just see these eyes Cheryl 348 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 1: McCollum staring in the window at me changing clothes. Cheryl, 349 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: right there, jump in I'm here, And here's the thing, Nancy, 350 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: they're obviously going to try to establish. And they probably 351 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 1: asked him the second question, have you ever been in 352 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: this house? He probably either said no or he had 353 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 1: whatever reason or then where in the house did you go? 354 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: Kansas Are He had a season to go to the 355 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,879 Speaker 1: third floor. He had no reason to hutch a bedspread, 356 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 1: he had no reason to touch a windowsill, he had 357 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 1: no reason to touch the sliding glass door and the 358 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,159 Speaker 1: front door. He's gonna have a hard time explaining that. 359 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:41,920 Speaker 1: And I'll say something else. It's gonna be in that car, 360 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 1: Sat Jay Simpson. I can't I can't hear I can't 361 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 1: hear you. What's gonna be in the car? Think about O. J. Simpson? 362 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 1: That one drop of blood on the outside of the 363 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: bronco that had more than one victim's blood swirled in it. 364 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: That's gonna be key. There's no way he clicked that 365 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 1: haul well enough, not possible. If if there's a transfer, 366 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 1: that's one hundred pot I agree with that one thousand percent. 367 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,159 Speaker 1: If they have both victims of blood anywhere in that 368 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: guy's car, he's chose yeah. And the reality is, of course, 369 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan that there's no way unless he bathes 370 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 1: his car in black swan myriadic acid, there's no way 371 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 1: he's going to get rid of DNA. Plus he can't 372 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: see all the DNA. But this guy is a criminologist. 373 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: He's got his master's degree for Pete's sake. Man, if 374 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: you let me jump in here, please about that and 375 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: just put people's mind at ease. I can memorize the 376 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: rules of cricket, but I couldn't officiate a game. He 377 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: can study things all he wants to, but when he 378 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: tries to put something in action, that's a different ball game. 379 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: You can't come back right, Cheryl Sabin in your you know, 380 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: one person might wake up, one person might fight you. 381 00:23:55,760 --> 00:24:00,119 Speaker 1: He's never experienced that type of incident. There's no way 382 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: he can prepare for that from a textbook. Well, we 383 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: don't know that he hadn't killed other guys. Can I 384 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 1: get back to my original question? Have I ever cut 385 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: Del Carson's mic in life? Because it's coming, It's coming, 386 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: Chris mcdonnah help me here, anybody help me? Because what 387 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: I understand is officers trace the white Hyundai to his 388 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 1: mommy's address in Pennsylvania, then they cross match his DNA 389 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:30,359 Speaker 1: found at the scene, So his DNA has found at 390 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 1: the scene. I wonder, Chris mcdonnah, how they isolated his 391 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 1: DNA from all the other DNA they found at the 392 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,919 Speaker 1: party house, unless what Cheryl was saying is correct, that 393 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 1: it was in places it shouldn't have been, like in 394 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 1: one of the murder beds, in the second murder bed, 395 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: maybe within the blood. What do you make of it, Chris, 396 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: I think there's all of those possibilities in that it 397 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: could be in cast off of some sort if there 398 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 1: were a struggle, which we know there were defensive wounds 399 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 1: from the victims, so you know, the possibility of the 400 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:10,160 Speaker 1: suspect cutting himself is high on the lift, and so 401 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,879 Speaker 1: that cross mixture could be separated pretty easily. And then 402 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: immediately they can do what they call an Andy test 403 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 1: a n d I, and that is a rapid DNA 404 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:26,360 Speaker 1: test that immediately can identify this guy, not necessarily who 405 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,959 Speaker 1: he is, but his DNA makeup. And then when they 406 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 1: come across like the car or I had a case 407 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: one time where the suspect put the knife back in 408 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 1: his pocket and we found blood inside of the pocket 409 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: of the suspect's pants, so that blood, if it's the 410 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,640 Speaker 1: DNA that they're looking for, is pretty easy to get. 411 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: Or they followed him and they picked up a cup 412 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: the old remember that, Nancy, back in the day. You 413 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,159 Speaker 1: pick up a cup, you pick up a cigarette, and dingle, 414 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: you're in town. So yeah, I was one. Do you 415 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 1: think possibly jo Scott Morgan. That's why they were surveiling him, 416 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 1: to catch him throw out a pizza box or toss 417 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: away fast food so they could get done for all 418 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: the care of the want to be criminologists might have 419 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: he got stupid. I think they've had a team sit 420 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 1: in on this guy, they being the FEDS. More than 421 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: likely they've been watching him very closely, and he got stupid. 422 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: He cast something off and as you know as an attorney, 423 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: once you throw it in the trash, it's no longer yours, 424 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: so they can go collected. It would end its sourced DNA. 425 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 1: It comes directly from him, so you know, back to 426 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 1: what the other other guests have mentioned, this unknown that 427 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 1: would have been in dwelling at the scene, and remember 428 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: they said they identified his DNA there if he injured 429 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: himself or if it was sourced from another fluid from 430 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: his body that originated from him. Then they can compare 431 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 1: those two with this evidence, this DNA, this rich DNA 432 00:26:57,960 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: that they're why do you say, why do you talk 433 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:03,640 Speaker 1: like that another DNA source that originated from him. Let's 434 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: either's blood, there's saliva, and their sperm. It's got to 435 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: be one of those three, right, yes, yeah, that or 436 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 1: sweat as well. And keep in mind, again a lot 437 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 1: has been made over the fact that this is a 438 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: sharp force injury case. He would have had to have 439 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 1: used this knife over and over and over again. By 440 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: the time you get to the fourth person, you're going 441 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 1: to be perspiring as well. So I remember there was 442 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: sweat DNA found in Stephen Avery's car, the guy who 443 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,360 Speaker 1: murdered Teresa Hallenback amateur photographer, well actually a pro photographer, 444 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 1: and it was found I think, on the steering wheel 445 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,199 Speaker 1: of her car, which was hidden at the edge of 446 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,159 Speaker 1: his property. And if you don't know those names, you 447 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,679 Speaker 1: wouldn't know the name making a murderer by was it 448 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: HBO or Netflix? Yeah, who seemingly tried to make Stephen 449 00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 1: Avery appear innocent? Yeah, and wet. So how do you 450 00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 1: think they isolated his DNA? Did you say, Joe Scott, 451 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 1: are you going along with Ryl mccollms theory? Yeah, Yeah, 452 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: I am. Actually I think she's right on the money 453 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 1: with this. It would be a commingled, which just means 454 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 1: that it's mixed together with everything else. This scene is 455 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: going to be evidence rich relative to the victims. There's 456 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,960 Speaker 1: a lot of bloodshedding. You're going to have the commingling. 457 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 1: And I mentioned this a couple of times over the weeks, 458 00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: where you're going from body to body to body, so 459 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 1: you're commingling DNA from victim A with B, with C 460 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 1: with D and then you throw his into the mix. 461 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: They can identify those very specifically, those four victims. And 462 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: there's also touch DNA that's at the scene. Remember they 463 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: keep using this term party house, party, party house. There's 464 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 1: a lot of DNA there from other people. So they're 465 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 1: having to go through this task of eliminating everybody. They've 466 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 1: isolated all of these unknowns. Maybe his was appearing in 467 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 1: various sights, you know, from all over these rooms and 468 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: maybe from the bodies themselves, and so he did something 469 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 1: to screw this up where he cast something off. They 470 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: were able to capture this and compare and then it's 471 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: it's academic at that point, and it's it's not a big, 472 00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 1: big ask at that point to try to identify something's 473 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 1: gonna remind everybody that Idaho does have the death penalty. Jackie, 474 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure it's lethal death by needle. But I 475 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 1: want to go to this thought. Fry refuses to rule 476 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 1: out the possibility of an accomplice. You know, I've never 477 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: bought into the accomplice theory in this case. Who would 478 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 1: go along with the murders of four people and never 479 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: say a word or screw up and get caught plus 480 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,239 Speaker 1: one weapon? We think, you know, jump in Sorry, Nancy, Well, 481 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 1: you know what's interesting to that point is just earlier today, 482 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 1: I'd say, you know, just a matter of hours ago, 483 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 1: Chief James Fry from Mosco PD had the chance to 484 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: say they have captured the only suspect that they think 485 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: they need. He was specifically asked if he thought anyone 486 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: else was potentially wanted in this case, and he did 487 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 1: not respond to the question. He did not answer the 488 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 1: question directly. All he said was he thinks that he 489 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: has captured someone who have committed these crimes. Now, police 490 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 1: have said, even in the press release announcing this conference 491 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: today that this is an ongoing case. But they have 492 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,600 Speaker 1: not said, and they have not said that they have 493 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: captured everyone they need so far, which I did find interesting. 494 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,479 Speaker 1: During a press conference. Yeah, his exact words, we have 495 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 1: an individual in custody who committed these horrible crimes. He 496 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: did not say it was the only individuals. Interesting. Now, 497 00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 1: let's figure this out. The martyrs occurred November thirteen. He's 498 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: arrested forty eight days later. Do you believe that any 499 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: scratches or injuries he sustained during a potential struggle would 500 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: have faded and gone away by now, because I do, 501 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 1: unless it's a dike cut, unless it's what a knife cut, 502 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 1: a knife cut? Okay, all right. We know the extradition 503 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: will most likely be a very quick procedure and he 504 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 1: will be on his way back to Idaho at that time. 505 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 1: We understand that the arrest warrant and the supporting affidavit 506 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 1: will be unsealed and we can learn more. We know 507 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: this guy has no prior arrest, which I believe all 508 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: of us predicted a while back, or he would have 509 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: already been matched to the DNA data bank. What can 510 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: you tell me about a court order Stephanie Begonus a 511 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 1: court order regarding cleaning out cleaning out the house. I'm 512 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 1: so happy you asked, Nancy, because I was actually going 513 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 1: to interject earlier about this. Yes, so a cleaning crew, 514 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: a professional cleaning crew hired by law enforcement, all but 515 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: entered the crime scene this morning. They arrived at the 516 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 1: home to trucks and a trailer, prepared to enter the 517 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: home and begin to clean it of any buyer hazards 518 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: and chemicals that were used in the process of gathering evidence. 519 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,760 Speaker 1: But before they could even really get make any headway 520 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 1: with this, they received what was called the legal requests 521 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 1: by the court to halt any processes there. So they 522 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: basically got there all but began before they were told 523 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: to call it off for the time being. So the 524 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 1: home remains an active crime scene in the custody of 525 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: Moscow Police Department for the time being. Well, why would 526 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: they have released it if they think they need they 527 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: still need to get evidence. It's an excellent question and 528 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: one that many people have asked about. I believe even 529 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan and I had been discussing this just 530 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: yesterday before we get carried away on the court order 531 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 1: you do know that, according to sources, this guy forced 532 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 1: his parents to buy kneepots and pans which had never 533 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 1: touched meat. To let that's so ken for a moment, 534 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: he's so against killing animals, but yet he's slaughtered for 535 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: beautiful university students. But Nancy talked about from the beginning, 536 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: he's fared. I was just wondering how long it was 537 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: going to take you to bring out the dog, Cheryl, 538 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 1: because that's been your focus from the very beginning. Spirit 539 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 1: dogs sat me because again, you know people, you can 540 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: tell them a story, and you can tell them, hey, 541 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 1: I worked this homicide and this happened to that person, 542 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 1: and then this happened to the dog, and they will 543 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: react more about what harm came to the dog. I 544 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: get it. I understand that heartstring being pulled for an animal. 545 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: But what I'm saying is, when you've got somebody that 546 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: can slaughter four people but not harm the animal, that 547 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 1: tells you about this person and again we're finding out 548 00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: he's against any kind of animal. Old Well, it checked out. 549 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 1: But can I say one more thing about his academic prowess? Again, 550 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: if you were the prosecutor on this case, I can 551 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: see you right now in court, Nancy saying, this person 552 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,439 Speaker 1: is a trained professional, he was at the PhD level 553 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 1: with criminal justice and criminology. Yet for forty eight days, 554 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 1: he never contacted law enforcement about his car being in 555 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 1: the area. Not once. Yeah, go ahead, jump in, you'll 556 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 1: to dub Jawna. Cheryl's thought is this guy enjoyed striking 557 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:39,280 Speaker 1: fear not only in the community, about women as a whole. 558 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 1: And you know, I think I don't think it's over 559 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,239 Speaker 1: for him. I think the court proceeding, he's going to 560 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 1: eat it up. And he's you know, because he's sitting 561 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: back watching you know a lot of I think what 562 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 1: is being said. If he has access obviously to the media, 563 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 1: which he probably does, because I think that question that 564 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 1: you asked earlier, Nancy, is indicative of the way he's thinking, 565 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,880 Speaker 1: meaning are there other people arrested? I think that thought 566 00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,240 Speaker 1: process can go into and this is my own opinion, 567 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:16,280 Speaker 1: his ego and or an accessory after the fact, somebody 568 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: that loaned him the car. They may have information that 569 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: type of deal, but I still believe that he's the 570 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 1: loan suspect in this incident. And you know that I 571 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,320 Speaker 1: think he's going to enjoy every piece of this going 572 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 1: forward forward, because he's getting a great deal of satisfaction 573 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: out of it. I am still stymied at this chilling 574 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: survey created by kay Berger asking criminals how they felt 575 00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: while they committed their crimes. I mean, yeah, is he 576 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 1: doing his own research? Right? Was he doing his own 577 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 1: research into himself? Y'all have pulled him, he'd get involved 578 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: on it. Any talk to him about a calm and 579 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: tell me what you feel right before? What did you 580 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:23,840 Speaker 1: feel doing? What did you feel after that? Incite him 581 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 1: time stories with Nancy Grace. Now we've been told that 582 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: he had a quote quiet, blank stare when he was 583 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 1: arrested by local cops and the FBI on Friday morning. 584 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:44,799 Speaker 1: I've seen defendants like that, I've seen killers like that. 585 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,840 Speaker 1: I don't know what exactly it depicts. Guys, take a 586 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 1: listen again to our friend Laura Ingole at Fox needs 587 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 1: so many questions still unanswered with it. We hope to get. 588 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: You know, what connects this suspect to the victims, what 589 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,400 Speaker 1: was the motive, was there possible DNA of against that 590 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 1: connects him to the crime, And of course the location 591 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,320 Speaker 1: of the murder weapon. A source tells us that Koburger 592 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,279 Speaker 1: is a student at Washington State University in Pullman, and 593 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,799 Speaker 1: that's just about fifteen minutes away from the scene of 594 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: the crime. He was pursuing a master's in criminal justice. 595 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:17,959 Speaker 1: We know he is from Pennsylvania from what we've been told, 596 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 1: and lived in Washington State. We have reached out to 597 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,799 Speaker 1: numerous family members here with no response back so far. 598 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 1: A search of his Washington State apartment was conducted earlier today. 599 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: After a search, warrant was served. No word on what 600 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: was removed or sought in his apartment. And taking a 601 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:37,879 Speaker 1: look at more information on Cohler interesting Kolberger. He had 602 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 1: a birthday recently, turning twenty eight years old. It would 603 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:43,839 Speaker 1: have been about one week after these murders occurred. Now 604 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,719 Speaker 1: we know his sister, Melissa, as a mental health nurse 605 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:53,359 Speaker 1: in New Jersey. She specializes in quote, trauma and emotion regulation. 606 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,520 Speaker 1: I wonder why that is her chosen field. We know 607 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,800 Speaker 1: his dad file from bankruptcy a really long time ago 608 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: in twenty ten. What more do we know? He completed 609 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 1: a bachelor's degree in twenty twenty a master's degree in 610 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:14,879 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. I know who's attending had attended a 611 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:21,440 Speaker 1: Catholic School, Moscow. Cops have been hunting this exact vehicle 612 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: in the last weeks in connection with the killings, and 613 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:29,320 Speaker 1: they found it. What more do we know, Stephanie Pagans 614 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 1: it was three am, or you say a little earlier 615 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 1: when a swat team swarmed on his parents' home in Pennsylvania, Scranton, Pennsylvania. 616 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 1: What more do we know? You know? Unfortunately, Nancy, not 617 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: much beyond what you have already shared. And police are 618 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 1: citing Idaho laws for the reason why they can't share anything. 619 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,359 Speaker 1: I asked Chief Fry earlier today if he could even 620 00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 1: tell us how long police might have had their eyes 621 00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,800 Speaker 1: on him, and if there were any tips, and if so, 622 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 1: how many that related directly to mister Koburger. But right 623 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: now police are staying quiet, and they're saying as soon 624 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 1: as the as soon as the affidavit is available, it 625 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,320 Speaker 1: will be in court records, but we should not expect 626 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 1: that until at least his extradition hearing on Tuesdays. So, guys, 627 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:22,120 Speaker 1: let's figure out. Had he targeted one of the victims, 628 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,680 Speaker 1: he only lived about twelve miles away from the party house. 629 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,319 Speaker 1: What do you make of a del Carson Well? I 630 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 1: think as you know that he surveiled that house for 631 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,759 Speaker 1: an extended period of time, and it may have been 632 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:43,320 Speaker 1: the one victim's departure that precipitated or triggered his conduct. 633 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:47,600 Speaker 1: The question I have is how did he monitor those behaviors? 634 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 1: And were there wires illegal over here? Mike's in the 635 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,479 Speaker 1: rooms you know today you can produce those that don't 636 00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:57,960 Speaker 1: give a signal unless you turn them on. They're very 637 00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,239 Speaker 1: difficult to find, and that's why I'd always upset me 638 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:05,160 Speaker 1: that they would turn over the house without thoroughly going 639 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,279 Speaker 1: through it in a way that would satisfy me at least, 640 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 1: that there weren't other mechanisms involved here that allowed him 641 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,080 Speaker 1: to do this horrible crime. Yeah, Chris mcdonnah joining me 642 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,879 Speaker 1: director a Cold Case Foundation. You can find them at 643 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:22,839 Speaker 1: the interview room on YouTube. Chris, I'm just wondering. I mean, 644 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,799 Speaker 1: we've we've all agreed that this was targeted. Now, that 645 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 1: could mean anything from following them home from class, meeting 646 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 1: them at a bar, walking by their house one day. 647 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 1: It could mean anything. He lived close enough that he 648 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,759 Speaker 1: could surveil them anytime he wanted to. What do you think, 649 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:46,239 Speaker 1: Chris mcdonnah, Yeah, Nancy Shole. I think he was methodically 650 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:50,879 Speaker 1: monitoring these victims some way, shape or another in terms 651 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:55,080 Speaker 1: of if it's one or if it's multiple, and that 652 00:40:55,719 --> 00:41:02,160 Speaker 1: there's something we don't know obviously about his motive and 653 00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:07,840 Speaker 1: relationship to his ego that has driven him to such hatred. 654 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:13,000 Speaker 1: And and I would submit that that hatred was was 655 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 1: you know, pointed specifically at the women, and that Ethan 656 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:23,239 Speaker 1: found himself in a very you know, wrong place at 657 00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:26,160 Speaker 1: the wrong time, and I don't think the suspect anticipated 658 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:31,239 Speaker 1: him being there. So, you know, I think this guy 659 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:38,200 Speaker 1: is not only driven by this anger towards women. But 660 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 1: I again, I'm going to go back to this thought 661 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:44,080 Speaker 1: that he's not done. Is he's going to keep driving 662 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 1: the court system because it's continually shedding, Uh, you know, 663 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:52,120 Speaker 1: something that he's been missing in his life for quite 664 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:55,320 Speaker 1: some time that's been driving his ego. So there's a 665 00:41:55,360 --> 00:41:58,840 Speaker 1: wound to his ego somewhere in this whole process, and 666 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,800 Speaker 1: him to sneak up like this without a sexual component, 667 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,799 Speaker 1: that means she really is much more dangerous. And I'm 668 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:08,359 Speaker 1: glad they caught him. Why do you say he's more 669 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,280 Speaker 1: dangerous because there was not a sex attack well, because 670 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,600 Speaker 1: he tasted you know, he treated this event like it's 671 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 1: a major event in our lives, right, like we're planning 672 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:21,840 Speaker 1: a wedding or we're planning a graduation. Well, he was 673 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:26,279 Speaker 1: planning this mass murder, and he was very methodical and 674 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:28,839 Speaker 1: doing it evident of the fact that it's taken the 675 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,439 Speaker 1: time that it's taken for him to come to the surface. Wow, okay, sure, 676 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:34,680 Speaker 1: I'm gonna callum more. They targeted. Oh, I don't think 677 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,520 Speaker 1: there's any question about that. That house, the way it 678 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 1: sat in that little cul defact area. You had to 679 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:42,279 Speaker 1: know that house, You had to know how to get 680 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:46,080 Speaker 1: to it. It wasn't just an easy in and out exit. 681 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 1: And again, most people men, specifically, they do not make 682 00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:53,920 Speaker 1: any crime more difficult. They don't put things in their path. 683 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 1: So I believe that he had a watch area which 684 00:42:57,239 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 1: was up on that hill where he could sit and 685 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:01,920 Speaker 1: watch how they came and went. I think that he 686 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,400 Speaker 1: understood the day he was going to do it, at 687 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,440 Speaker 1: the time he was going to do it. I think 688 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,040 Speaker 1: it was all planned out. And again I think there's 689 00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:12,400 Speaker 1: going to be evidence of that, either in an online 690 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,880 Speaker 1: type manifesto or somewhere in that apartment where he was 691 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,760 Speaker 1: keeping almost like a journey. I think that's very possible. 692 00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:22,240 Speaker 1: What about it, Joe Scott Morgan's he has been watching 693 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:27,040 Speaker 1: them and this little town it's not someplace you wind 694 00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:31,279 Speaker 1: up by accident. And I've held that this is he 695 00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:35,480 Speaker 1: would have had a familiarity with it, may not have 696 00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:40,800 Speaker 1: ever been in the home, but it's it's a cul decyce. Essentially, 697 00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:42,759 Speaker 1: you can make a round and come back out, but 698 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:46,200 Speaker 1: there's only one way out in a car. It's a 699 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,040 Speaker 1: dead end. It's not a location that you're just going 700 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,759 Speaker 1: to happen upon. You have to be going there to 701 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:56,280 Speaker 1: get there. And he, for some reason, one of these women, 702 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,680 Speaker 1: one of these three women, drew his attention. I think 703 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:03,080 Speaker 1: one of the really kind of interesting pieces to all 704 00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:07,680 Speaker 1: of this, Nancy, is that the people downstairs survived and 705 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:12,480 Speaker 1: didn't survive. They had no indication allegedly that anything was 706 00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:16,480 Speaker 1: going on. Why these four? Why these four on the 707 00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:18,080 Speaker 1: second and the third floor? And I know that that 708 00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:20,120 Speaker 1: can be easily you know, you can say, well, he 709 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:22,600 Speaker 1: entered on the second floor. But if he had been 710 00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:26,520 Speaker 1: surveilling the location, wouldn't he have had an indication that 711 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:28,400 Speaker 1: other people lived in the house. Did he make his 712 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:31,239 Speaker 1: way down there? Is there evidence that he came down 713 00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:33,880 Speaker 1: the staircase, Maybe he touched the door knobs on their doors, 714 00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,360 Speaker 1: or whatever the case might be. I don't know. I 715 00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:38,360 Speaker 1: think that that's kind of an interesting piece to this 716 00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:43,760 Speaker 1: What was so attractive to him about these three victims. 717 00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:46,480 Speaker 1: And one of the piece here that that's really kind 718 00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:48,440 Speaker 1: of chilling to me that will always stick with me 719 00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:51,920 Speaker 1: about this case is that TikTok video that those young 720 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:55,600 Speaker 1: ladies made. It was a real intimate look into that 721 00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:59,200 Speaker 1: environment where they're imitating one another, they're dancing about, and 722 00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:01,880 Speaker 1: it was done and fun. But if you're on the 723 00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:05,440 Speaker 1: outside looking in, and he had he had a view 724 00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,600 Speaker 1: into there, the whole world, did what their life looked like? 725 00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,319 Speaker 1: This kitchen area, the commons area, He could see the 726 00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,080 Speaker 1: stairwells and there you could even see that big bank 727 00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:18,960 Speaker 1: of windows where the slaughters were. And for me, that 728 00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:22,040 Speaker 1: was a real chilling point in this whole case. I'm 729 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,600 Speaker 1: going to be interested to see what his Internet activity 730 00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:28,520 Speaker 1: is if he had, you know, kind of been watching 731 00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:32,720 Speaker 1: them visa visa okay, Stephanie forgonus, what are we leaving out? 732 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:36,640 Speaker 1: You know, Nancy, I think there is still so much 733 00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:42,120 Speaker 1: more to come. I think really the first trove, if 734 00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:45,560 Speaker 1: you made the first treasure trove, might come as soon 735 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,120 Speaker 1: as Tuesday, when we finally have a better idea from 736 00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:52,000 Speaker 1: a probable cause After David, I think there is so 737 00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,760 Speaker 1: much that is currently being left out simply because we're 738 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:58,600 Speaker 1: not being told. But I do think now that this 739 00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,200 Speaker 1: man has been arrested, in his name is out there, 740 00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,960 Speaker 1: we will most certainly begin to hear more about him, 741 00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:09,000 Speaker 1: what he's done, how he might have made people feel, 742 00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:11,319 Speaker 1: or what they might have witnessed from him. I think 743 00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:13,680 Speaker 1: this is only just the beginning. Oh yes, it's just 744 00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:16,839 Speaker 1: the beginning. And I can guarantee you one thing. If 745 00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:23,359 Speaker 1: a guy was so fastidious, so obsessive, that he insisted 746 00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:27,600 Speaker 1: his parents get rid not wash in the dishwasher with 747 00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:32,040 Speaker 1: baking heat cycles, but get rid of pots and pans 748 00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:35,719 Speaker 1: that had ever cooked meat for him to use those 749 00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:39,160 Speaker 1: pots and pans. If he was that fastidious about pots 750 00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:43,280 Speaker 1: and pans, this was pre planned, and he has left 751 00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:49,719 Speaker 1: a trail as we speak, a team of technicians and 752 00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:59,360 Speaker 1: experts combing through his Pullman apartment and car. God help them. 753 00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:01,720 Speaker 1: Nancy Gray signing off good bicy