1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and fair Weather 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: Friends Media. You are listening. 3 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 2: From the page to the screen to the stage. Black 4 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 2: artists have bemoaned the demand for them to perform struggle 5 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 2: for white audiences. 6 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,840 Speaker 1: Some call it poverty porn, others call it trauma porn. 7 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: You may have heard the phrases misery lit or misery memoirs. 8 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 2: Yep, I've definitely heard those terms kicked around, but they 9 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 2: focused on the end product, the movie, the book, the play. 10 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 2: But there's a web of actors and interests that make 11 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 2: sure these products exist in the first place. And that's 12 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 2: why I've coined the term Black struggle industrial complex. 13 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: Okay, I see the system thinking. 14 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 2: You see it, and I've come to see that many 15 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 2: relationships make up the Black struggle industrial complex, and multiple 16 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 2: parties benefit from it. And while there's a bunch of 17 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 2: examples of stories that have been accused of being trauma 18 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 2: porn or poverty porn, some storytellers break the fourth wall 19 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,040 Speaker 2: and show us how they relate to this complex. 20 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,759 Speaker 1: Stories like Percival Everett's Erasure, which was recently adapted into 21 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: a movie called American Fiction, pull back the curtain on 22 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: the black struggle industrial complex and shine a satirical light 23 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: on all its moving parts. 24 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:41,120 Speaker 2: I loved Erasure. The novel tells the story of Thelonious 25 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:45,199 Speaker 2: Monk Ellison, a black author and university professor who becomes 26 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 2: frustrated with the expectations and stereotypes associated with the black literature. 27 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 2: In response, he writes the parody of what he sees 28 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 2: as stereotypical ghetto fiction under a pseudonym. To Monk's surprise, 29 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 2: the book becomes a literary sensation and hygiens ensu. 30 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: When an early screening of American Fiction came to Atlanta, 31 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: you know, we had to pull up. If they want stereotypes, 32 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: I'll give them one. What is this? Nobody's gonna publish this. 33 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 3: I just want to rub their nose, isn't it? 34 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: We love it? 35 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 3: What? 36 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 2: You know? We had a lot of thoughts after the 37 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 2: credits rolled. 38 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 1: I guess I want to start by asking you, Katie, 39 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 1: what is your initial gut reaction to the film now 40 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:26,799 Speaker 1: that we finished it. 41 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 2: Gut feeling, liked it, thought it was funny, entertained, liked 42 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 2: some of the changes, didn't like other changes. 43 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: My gut reaction is that it was fun like it 44 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: seemed very mainstream and that's not kind of how I 45 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:45,679 Speaker 1: imagined the book Erasure to be. The black struggle industrial 46 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 1: complex was real in that movie. 47 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 2: Indeed, it had all the parts. 48 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: Okay, go ahead and break it down for us, Katie. 49 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 2: All right, So the anatomy of the black struggle industrial 50 00:02:56,840 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 2: complex is well complex are with the most obvious the creator. 51 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 2: And as we saw in Erasure, in American fiction, there 52 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 2: are two types of creators, the ones who chaf against 53 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 2: the demands to present black struggle stories and those who 54 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 2: see it as a ticket for individual material gain. 55 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: So the main character interrature and American fiction, Thelnius Monk Ellison, 56 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: is clearly the former. And would you say his foil 57 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: Juanita May Jenkins, who was renamed Centaur Golden for the movie, 58 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 1: author of the best selling Weeze Lives in the Ghetto, 59 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: is an example of the latter. 60 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would the movie gave us more insight into 61 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 2: Wanita's mindset than the book, like in the scene where 62 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 2: Monk confronts her about her books perpetuating stereotypes. And by 63 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 2: the way, going for it, I'm going to refer to 64 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 2: her as just Juania, but we mean Juanita in the 65 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 2: book and Cintaa in the movie My Thing is some 66 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 2: people's actual stories are what some would call stereotypes. Stereotypes 67 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 2: don't come out of thin air. Some folks actually live 68 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 2: that life. But one of the major tenets of the 69 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 2: black struggle industrial complay is a pandering to white people's 70 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 2: guilt or their need to be liked or feel cool. 71 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 2: It varies, but the black creator supplies what they need. 72 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: Hmm, okay, can you explain more what you mean by that? 73 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. So, both Monk's book My Pathology or later renamed Fuck, 74 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,359 Speaker 2: and Wanita's book We Lived in the Ghetto are held 75 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:21,599 Speaker 2: as honest, raw a true representation of what it's like 76 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 2: to be black in America. Juanita even says that was 77 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 2: part of her motivation for writing the book. 78 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 3: What really struck me was that too few books were 79 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 3: about my people. Where are our stories? Where's our representation? 80 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 2: But both Monks and Janita's books aren't true or representative 81 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 2: of anything they know personally. Monks is completely made up, 82 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 2: and that's the gag. Our Ratio delves into this more 83 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 2: than American fiction. But Fuck My Pathology is about a 84 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 2: deadbeat dad who assaults black women and fantasizes about stabbing 85 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 2: his mom. There really aren't any significant white characters, so 86 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 2: it gives the white audience of heuristic experience. Even the 87 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 2: title my pathology points to all the problems in this 88 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 2: black community being the black people's own backwardness. It never 89 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 2: touches on systemic issues. Denby Dan's rappers crack. 90 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: You said you wanted black stuff. That's black, right. So 91 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: white people get this gritty story from the hood without 92 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: having to feel guilty about how they may have contributed 93 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 1: to making the conditions of the. 94 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 2: Hood exactly And similarly, we learned from reading A Rasure 95 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 2: that Juanita spent a week in Harlem with her cousins 96 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 2: and wrote her book. Otherwise she's lived a really privileged life, 97 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 2: went to a prestigious school, got a sought after job 98 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 2: upon graduation. Monk is a PhD. Both his siblings are 99 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 2: medical doctors. His father wasn't empty. His family seems extremely 100 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:48,720 Speaker 2: well off. They have two houses, a beach house and 101 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 2: a primary residence, and a living maid, so both of 102 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 2: them are cappin. But they get put on this pedestal 103 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 2: of being the few to speak for millions of black Americans. 104 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 2: And I'm not saying hood shit and trauma shouldn't be 105 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:03,040 Speaker 2: written about. But who gets to write about hoodshit and 106 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 2: trauma is what's interesting to me when it comes to 107 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 2: the black struggle industrial complex. 108 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 1: Like who gets propped up and puts to the forefront 109 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: and what agenda is that serving? 110 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, because on the other hand, works that have been 111 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 2: accused of being trauma porn often have a white savior involved, 112 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 2: so the white audience can identify with being the good guy, like. 113 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 1: Twelve Years a Slave, Freedom, Writers, The Help. 114 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 2: There's so many but works to speak to trauma and 115 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:33,160 Speaker 2: indict white supremacy, capitalism, and fascism as a culprit, those 116 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 2: books get banned. George Jackson's Blood in My Eye would 117 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 2: never be a part of the Black struggle industrial complex 118 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 2: because it's not serving either role of making white people 119 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 2: feel better or pandering to their guilt. 120 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: Do you think Wanita and creators like her who play 121 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: into the system are cognizant of what they're doing. 122 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,280 Speaker 2: I do think there's some cognitive dissidence going on. Like 123 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,719 Speaker 2: to talk about representation, I think is a popular cop out, 124 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 2: like any depiction of black people on the screen is 125 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 2: a good thing, But deep down, I do think they 126 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:05,160 Speaker 2: know what they're doing like. 127 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 1: In the movie when Monk likens Juanita's writing to a 128 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: drug dealer rationalizing selling drugs by saying that he's just 129 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: giving folks what they want, and Janit equips, well, I 130 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: think drugs should be. 131 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 2: Legal, and I mean, it's a really attractive deal. In 132 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 2: this instance, millions of dollars are on the table for 133 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 2: whoever is willing to make these stories, So I can 134 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 2: see why and how someone would rationalize it. 135 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 1: And Monk quickly realizes that too, that no matter how 136 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: much he despises it, in order for him to be 137 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: a materially successful author, he has to give up all 138 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: the Greek mythology writing and embody these stereotypes, even if 139 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: he does so under a pen name. 140 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 2: I mean, and even in the book in the movie, 141 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 2: Monk chafed it against it, but then ultimately wrote his 142 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 2: parody and he was saying like, oh, you know, I'm 143 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 2: doing it to stick it to the man, but also like, 144 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 2: you're not dumb because you saw that we lives in 145 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 2: the ghetto, which is essentially the same type of which 146 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 2: you're doing really well. Mentioned Yeah, so you saw that 147 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 2: you needed money to put your mom up in this 148 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 2: assisted living center, so you're against it, but you're like 149 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 2: when push comes to shove money talk and you took 150 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 2: that money, you weren't like now I'm just playing, y'all 151 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 2: are also stupid. I'm gonna be on my moral high ground. 152 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: And broke, and that's that on it. 153 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 2: So, as creators ourselves, what has been your experience with 154 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 2: the black struggle industrial complex? Like, have you been tempted? 155 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 2: Have you participated in it? 156 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,439 Speaker 1: It's such a tough question because I don't feel like 157 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: I've ever been tempted to amp up my blackness for 158 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: any sort of writing that I've ever done. I've also 159 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:49,079 Speaker 1: never been explicitly asked to do so, Like nobody's ever 160 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 1: said you have to add more struggle in here, or 161 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: you have to add more trauma in here. But I 162 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,319 Speaker 1: am often in a position where I am one of 163 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,679 Speaker 1: few black wrins who is working with the publication, and 164 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: so I'm working on black assignments that were given to 165 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,199 Speaker 1: me because I'm black. But I also choose them because 166 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: it's within the realm of things that I write. I 167 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: care about blackness and I care about writing about it, 168 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 1: so it's a choice on my end too. So it's 169 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:18,839 Speaker 1: two sides of the coin. Where the editors and the 170 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: publications that I'm involved with have power in what they're 171 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 1: assigning me. But I also have my own powered agency 172 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: and the things that I choose to either pitch and 173 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: or take and continue to write because I care about them. 174 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: And I'm fortunate enough to say that I have had 175 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: the privilege to be able to choose to write what 176 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: I want to write. And I've never been in a 177 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: space where for money, I absolutely have to write a thing, 178 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:44,319 Speaker 1: and have to write a thing that I know is 179 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: going to be lucrative for me. But I would like 180 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: to know your experience with it too. Have you ever 181 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: been tempted? 182 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, So there was this time when I was like 183 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 2: pitching my business for like different grants and stuff, and 184 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 2: there was like a competition I was a part of, 185 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 2: and you had to pitch your bit business and you know, 186 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 2: maybe it's like a five minute pitch. And I noticed 187 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 2: that it was like a mix of people. It was 188 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 2: like black people, Latino people, white people, all pitching their businesses. 189 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:15,679 Speaker 2: And so my business a black bookstore. I was talking 190 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 2: about just like how I grew up, how my mom 191 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 2: was like really into like teaching me and my brother 192 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 2: how to read and really loving black literature. And then 193 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 2: I also shared that my grandfather never knew how to read, 194 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:29,719 Speaker 2: and he lived to be eighty two and he never 195 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 2: learned how to read. And I thought that like really 196 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 2: fit into the story. And we would practice the pitches 197 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 2: in front of each other, right, and so then I 198 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 2: would like hear other people's pitches get a little more, 199 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 2: you know, like sob story is and I'm like, wait, 200 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 2: am I doing that? You know? So it wasn't like 201 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 2: anyone saying like, oh, like you really need to like 202 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 2: pull out that struggle, which my grandfather not knowing how 203 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 2: to read. I didn't see it as like something as 204 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 2: like a struggle for me personally, like definitely a struggle 205 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 2: for him. But if anything, it really just emphasized how 206 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 2: much reading was important. So I talk about the cop 207 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 2: in your head, but also the white taste maker in 208 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 2: your head, or like knowing that white people may feel 209 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 2: guilty that my grandfather didn't know how to read because 210 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 2: he grew up in like Jim Crow, Mississippi, and they 211 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 2: had a hand in that. So I think that was 212 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 2: one example where I felt like kind of uncomfortable and 213 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 2: I was like kind of seeing it play out even 214 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:22,559 Speaker 2: I think about that with like the book that I'm 215 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 2: writing now, I'm like, did I get this book deal 216 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 2: just because like black stuff was going on and like 217 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 2: white publishers and editors feel guilty about all the shit 218 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 2: black people were going through in twenty twenty and they're like, Okay, 219 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 2: like you get a book deal now. You know what 220 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 2: I'm saying. And it's not that I'm personally like writing 221 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:43,959 Speaker 2: anything that I think is handering to that, but I'm 222 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 2: writing the book in general that I do think is 223 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 2: a product of that. 224 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: Do you feel like your motivation for writing the book 225 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:53,439 Speaker 1: is because you knew that you could capitalize off of 226 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 1: the moment. 227 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought it was like very of the moment, 228 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 2: like we need to capture what's going on with the 229 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 2: black bookstores. So yeah, I think I'm thelonious girl. 230 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 1: I think that's going to stretch too far because he 231 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: went way into it. He went deep, deep down in 232 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:13,319 Speaker 1: the whole. Girl. 233 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:15,839 Speaker 2: I'm writing my pathology too. 234 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: Girl, I don't think that's the case. I think you're 235 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 1: overstating it. I think for me sometimes it happens more 236 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: on the end, where the work is already published in 237 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: the editorial process, versus it being during the content creation stage, 238 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: and I have white audiences inevitably reading the work and 239 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: they compliment me on it. Sometimes I question the value 240 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: of my work because I'm wondering, do they just like 241 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: this just because it gets a peek into a black mind, 242 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: the black thought process, you know, Black society, that they 243 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: get an insider's view of it all. I wonder, is 244 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 1: this because I'm a great writer, or is it like 245 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,680 Speaker 1: they say, like they really enjoyed the work. Is that true? 246 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: Or is that because of all the other toppings piled 247 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 1: on top of it that they get to get this 248 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 1: view from a person who they consider thoughtful and conscientious 249 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:12,559 Speaker 1: about black things. 250 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 2: And I think that's like kind of the central issue 251 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:22,839 Speaker 2: that you know, Polonius is battling with because he is 252 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 2: trying to write really like in depth characters who you know, 253 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 2: have like an interior life and like great dialogue in 254 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 2: his books that he likes writing, and nobody likes them, 255 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:37,560 Speaker 2: no one reads them, you know, like they're in the 256 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 2: wrong section of the bookstore. But then when he writes 257 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 2: just kind of like a parody of black life, it 258 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 2: takes off and it makes me think about, like how 259 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:51,359 Speaker 2: much did the author of a racer Percival ever identify 260 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 2: with the main character. Because Percival has written a lot 261 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 2: of books. He's also a professor, and not saying that 262 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 2: his books like we're doing as bad as Thelonious is, 263 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 2: but this book and in the book, you get to 264 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 2: read the entirety of the parody book he wrote. So 265 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 2: this book has that ghetto shit in there. And so 266 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 2: this is the book that gets adapted into a movie. 267 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 2: Right in a. 268 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: Way, this is kind of ironic to think about, but 269 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: Percival Everett's thoughts in this book are kind of a 270 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: stand in for the race because this is something that 271 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: we have to do a lot, which is kind of 272 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: ironic because part of this whole thing that he's railing 273 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: against is like being able to represent the race with 274 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: these caricatures and stereotypes and identification with black struggle. So 275 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: I think that it's very telling that this is the 276 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: book that got an adaptation and got a lot of 277 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: big names in it. I think that's worth mentioning too, 278 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: because there are Sterling K. Brown's in the movie, Issa 279 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 1: Ray's in the movie, Jeffrey in the movie, Erica Alexander 280 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 1: is in the movie. So there are a lot of 281 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: big names in this, So it was clearly something that 282 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: the studios thought was going to be a big draw 283 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: for people, because they were willing to get people who 284 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 1: are such upstanding actors in it. So yeah, maybe in 285 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: a way, this is kind of like representative of what 286 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 1: the author was talking about in the book. 287 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 2: More parts of the Anatomy of the Black Struggle Industrial 288 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 2: Complex after the break. Since money is a big factor 289 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 2: in the Black struggle industrial complex, let's look at the 290 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 2: next part of the system. 291 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: Let me guess the buyer. 292 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 2: The buyer. 293 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 1: The buyer has the money, they're funding the whole operation. 294 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 2: Yes, the white taste makers wield so much power in 295 00:15:58,840 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 2: this situation. 296 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 1: In American fiction, they're portrayed as kind of oblivious. 297 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 2: If there's already so much buzzy because of the. 298 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: Movie deal, Michael B. Jordan is circling. 299 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 2: We want to put them on the cover and one 300 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 2: of those scarves, I guess you would call them tied 301 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 2: around his head a do rag. 302 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: That's it easily tricked. 303 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 2: Is this based on your actual life? 304 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: Yeah? 305 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 3: You think some bitch ass college boy can come up 306 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 3: with that shit? 307 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: No, no, no, I don't. They're prejudiced, only allowing a 308 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: certain black narrative to be mainstream, but they aren't depicted 309 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: as overtly racist. 310 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 2: No, not at all. The buyers of the Black struggle 311 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 2: industrial Complex product aren't waving Confederate flags or storming the capitol. 312 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:44,000 Speaker 2: And as far as being oblivious, I think that's just 313 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 2: not true. Like they want to come across as oblivious 314 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 2: to deny culpability, but they know what they're doing. As writers, 315 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 2: I think the people we deal with the most are 316 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 2: editors as we're writing for these publications. You see, these 317 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 2: editors can give a yes or no on the stories 318 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 2: that get written and eventually public. They're the tastemakers and 319 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,959 Speaker 2: the king makers. If they decide they don't like you 320 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 2: or what you're saying, it's not going to get through them. 321 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 2: And of course you can self publish or find other publications. 322 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 2: But there's a difference between being in the New York 323 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,199 Speaker 2: Times in a random blog, and it's so much power. 324 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 2: They're not going to give it up just because you 325 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 2: point out to them that it's unfair. They know, and 326 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 2: they're on the right side of the unfairness sucks for 327 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 2: everybody else. 328 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 1: The director of American Fiction Court Jefferson, talked about this 329 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,959 Speaker 1: in an interview with the BBC, he said, I realized 330 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: that people would ask me, do you want to write 331 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: about this slave? Do you want to write about this 332 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 1: drug dealer? Do you want to write about this gang member? 333 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: And I realized that these kind of rigid restrictions as 334 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: to what black life looks like were being placed on me, 335 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 1: even in the world of fiction, which blew my mind. 336 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 1: They're also the middlemen, like the agents. 337 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 2: Yes, they're exactly that. 338 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, he knew the plot, but was pushing Monk to 339 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: not fumble the. 340 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:05,400 Speaker 2: Bag because ultimately, the agent needs the black struggle stories 341 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,400 Speaker 2: to sell in order to get paid, so they're going 342 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 2: to encourage it too. 343 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: They're offering four million dollars for the movie, right, behave 344 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,479 Speaker 1: the richer. I get the agent claims to be against 345 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 1: sensationalism over substance, but is he really How can he 346 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: be when his livelihood is so tied up in it 347 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 1: and he's not even the creative So he's really just 348 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 1: at the whim of two actors in the black struggle 349 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: industrial complex. And I might add that in the book, 350 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:34,439 Speaker 1: there is a part where he says, you're gonna get 351 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: three million dollars for this movie. Deal that means I'm 352 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:39,159 Speaker 1: going to get three hundred thousand. 353 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:40,680 Speaker 2: So he is calculated. 354 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: Yes, he needs to run with it, sir. 355 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,959 Speaker 2: He don't even need that calculator. App he knows what 356 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 2: his cut gonna be. And that brings us to the 357 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 2: final part of the Black struggle industrial complexes anatomy the audience. 358 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 1: Okay, I think most people can identify with being the audience. 359 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. It's the biggest potential group. So I'm going 360 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 2: to break it down into two sections, the black audience 361 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 2: and the white audience. And I know there's more than 362 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:09,919 Speaker 2: black and white people in the audience, but just go 363 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 2: with me here. 364 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 1: Okay, black folks first, all right, and we can. 365 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 2: Relate to this perspective more too, because before we were creating, 366 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 2: we were consuming. But in terms of the black audience's 367 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 2: role in the Black struggle industrial complex, I think it's twofold. 368 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,360 Speaker 2: The black audience is there to one appreciate the representation, 369 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 2: no matter how blackluster or unthoughtful it is. And two, 370 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 2: because white people often just copy black people's taste in 371 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 2: the arts, the black audience is used as a shepherd 372 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 2: for the highly sought after white audience. 373 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:44,640 Speaker 1: And when the black audience pushes back on certain media. 374 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: We're accused of tearing each other. 375 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 2: Down crabs in a barrel. 376 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 1: I remember that happened with Queen and Slim. 377 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 2: Oh my god. I think the black audience is taken 378 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:58,360 Speaker 2: for granted, like we have to support every single representative 379 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 2: movie or book, or even if. 380 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: It sucks, tell us how you really feel. 381 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,160 Speaker 2: Okay, not too much, not too much. Let me move 382 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 2: on to the white audience members, who, as we saw 383 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 2: in American fiction, are really coveted and catered to. 384 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:17,160 Speaker 1: Yes, like the reviewers and the white audience really pushed 385 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: black struggle stories to the four. After Wanita read an 386 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: excerpt from her book, a white woman is the first 387 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: to offer a standing ovation. 388 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 3: Y'all, Sharondon girl, you'd be pregnant again if I is Ray, 389 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 3: Ray is gonna be a real father this time around. 390 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 2: There's a strategic value behind what the white audience is doing. 391 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 2: Similarly to the buyers, I think the white audience's reaction 392 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,679 Speaker 2: to these black struggle stories is treated as quirky or 393 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 2: occurring by happenstance. 394 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 1: Like they don't know any better. 395 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, but literally, the most folesh thing you could do 396 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 2: is underestimate the whites and I think it's easier for 397 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,399 Speaker 2: folks to understand that with individual white people like Richard 398 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 2: Nixon are the Koch Brothers. They're supporting a particular black 399 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 2: vision over another one because the one they're supporting is 400 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 2: more useful to them. For example, for example, Nixon supported 401 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 2: black capitalism over socialism. He said in a speech, instead 402 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 2: of government jobs and government housing and government welfare, that 403 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 2: government uses its tax and credit policies to enlist in 404 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:24,919 Speaker 2: this battle the greatest engine of progress ever developed in 405 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:29,920 Speaker 2: the history of man American private enterprise. During the campaign, 406 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 2: Nixon co opted black powers rhetoric of economic self determination 407 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 2: to call for a segregated black economy. So while generations 408 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 2: of white Americans gained wealth through the same government jobs 409 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 2: and welfare, Nixon was now pointing Black America to the 410 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 2: free market and essentially saying, hey, good luck. And he 411 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 2: did that because it was useful to him. It steered 412 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 2: the conversation away from radical thinking and radical narratives. 413 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,159 Speaker 1: And you're saying, why audiences are doing something similar, but 414 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:56,680 Speaker 1: as a. 415 00:21:56,600 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 2: Mass yes, there's a collective intelligence white audience and says 416 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 2: are exercising in the stories they're elevating, which tend to 417 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 2: be more conservative, more escapist, and, in the case of 418 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 2: a racier and American Fiction, more pathological. It's also a 419 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 2: strategic intervention to steer the conversation away from radicalism, just 420 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 2: like Nixon and the Koch Brothers, the Ford Foundation, the Rockefellers. 421 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 2: So I think when we as creators are talking about 422 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 2: what the black struggle industrial complex does, it's not asking 423 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 2: us to be more black, because we're already black. It's 424 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 2: asking us to be a type of black that absolves 425 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,959 Speaker 2: and liberates white audiences from any obligation. 426 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: That reminds me of something else. The director of American 427 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,199 Speaker 1: Fiction said in that BBC interview. He said basically that 428 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: it allows why audience members to say, quote, this depiction 429 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 1: of race does not harm my self image because I'm 430 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 1: not burning across on anybody's lawn, i don't own slaves, 431 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: I'm not a racist, yep, wanting to be absolved. Hmm. 432 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 2: We'll have more on the other side of this break. 433 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 2: I do think that white audiences could like take away 434 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 2: the wrong thing from the movie American Fiction, the book 435 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,880 Speaker 2: a rasure, and even this podcast episode, like they even 436 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 2: be sitting there thinking like, well, since everything I'm doing 437 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,640 Speaker 2: is wrong. I'm just not going to support black art 438 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 2: at all since I'm doing it wrong, you know what 439 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,959 Speaker 2: I'm saying, which I don't think is the right thing 440 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,640 Speaker 2: to do. But if I was in their shoes and like. 441 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 1: You're giving them the much needed information that they always 442 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: be asking for, child, what do I do? 443 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,159 Speaker 2: No? I mean, if I was in their shoes, I 444 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 2: would be like, fuck y'all. 445 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 1: Okay, truly, that's not the answer they want. You're not 446 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 1: giving them the answer they want, you know what I. 447 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 2: Mean, Because it's like, Okay, well, y'all said, y'all wanted 448 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,360 Speaker 2: us to support black people, and it's floor back of businesses, 449 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:03,719 Speaker 2: and we went and bought this book. And now you're 450 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 2: saying we're doing that wrong. Like now you're saying that 451 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,679 Speaker 2: we're supporting this ghetto fiction that supports stereotypes, Like damn. 452 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 1: I think the movie didn't focus as much on what 453 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: the white people were actually saying about the book. In 454 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: the movie, they touched on it a little bit when 455 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: they were in the meeting. In the movie, they have 456 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: a scene where they're doing these literary book awards and 457 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: they have a cohortive people and it's like it's just 458 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: Juanita and Thelonius are the only black people in the group, 459 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: and it's like five or six people in the group. 460 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: And they don't talk about it as much in the movie, 461 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: but in the book they give a lot of the 462 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 1: things that the white people are saying about Juanita's book 463 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 1: and about fuck and they talk a little bit about 464 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,439 Speaker 1: it in the movie where they talk about the quotes 465 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: that were in the magazines and newspaper articles that were 466 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 1: saying Juanita's book is so raw and real and emotional. 467 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 1: So the white people that were in the book, we're 468 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 1: saying things like, this is the best black novel that 469 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 1: I've read in the last however long. 470 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 2: It's like it'll be taught in schools in thirty years. 471 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: Yes, they were very complimentary of it. They praised it 472 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: so highly, but they clearly, in the book and in 473 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:25,120 Speaker 1: the movie, really felt strongly about it being something that 474 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 1: needed to be more widely read and definitely widely read 475 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: by white audiences that they were the stand ins for. 476 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: So in the end, they were the judges essentially and 477 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: the gatekeepers for the images of black people that they 478 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 1: thought should be disseminated widely. And while they were saying 479 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: these things. They were completely ignoring what in the book 480 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: Monk was saying. But in the movie what both Sintara 481 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: aka Janita and Monk were saying. They were like, Oh, 482 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: you're a black person with thoughts about how blackness should 483 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 1: be in the book, you know. 484 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 2: So, But I think it goes back to that like 485 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,400 Speaker 2: collective intelligence, Like there is an agenda to say that 486 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,880 Speaker 2: this poordly written book that was written in like one night, 487 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 2: agree alcohol fueled night should be read by white and 488 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 2: black and every other race students for the next thirty years. 489 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:25,439 Speaker 2: What you try to say about black folks. 490 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, was it one night or was it one week? 491 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: I thought it was a week, he said. 492 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 2: I thought he wrote it in one night. 493 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:33,200 Speaker 1: It might have been different in the movie in the book, 494 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:34,679 Speaker 1: but in the book, I feel like he said he 495 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,360 Speaker 1: did it one week to others. 496 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 2: Either way, not very thoughtful. Yeah, you know what I'm saying. 497 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 2: But yeah, I think that goes back to like there 498 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,399 Speaker 2: is an agenda. And even when like a black person 499 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,000 Speaker 2: who you say you respect because they wouldn't have been 500 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 2: on this committee if they weren't respected writers, you say 501 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 2: you respect them and respect their art. In their opinion, 502 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 2: you're like nah, we got this, like we know what 503 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,920 Speaker 2: people should be reading, and we know what's the best 504 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 2: black book of the century. 505 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 1: Also, it being a fictional character that they're talking about 506 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 1: allows them distance that somebody, a black person, sitting right 507 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,919 Speaker 1: in front of them doesn't allow them. And in a 508 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 1: way for white people who are so used to operating 509 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,919 Speaker 1: in that way pretending black people are invisible or and 510 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,440 Speaker 1: they truly are if it's not pretending, sometimes black people 511 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: really are invisible to them in so many ways. It's 512 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 1: like you operate like that every day in life. I 513 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 1: have definitely had experiences where white people treating me as 514 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: invisible in places, so it's not hard for them to 515 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:35,679 Speaker 1: do that in a real room where it's like, in 516 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 1: a way, they have more intimacy with the fictional characters 517 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: because they live, breathe literary stuff, they are writers, so 518 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: it's like easier for them to be in touch or 519 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 1: in tune or ostensibly those things with this fictional black 520 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,159 Speaker 1: character who they could imagine more things upon as reading 521 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: it than somebody who's sitting right in front of them, 522 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: because they operate within white supremacy, because it's how they're 523 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:05,479 Speaker 1: used to treating black people in real life. 524 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. 525 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: So to recap the anatomy of the black struggle industrial complex, 526 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 1: we got the creators, the ones who push back against 527 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: and the ones who lean into it. We have the buyers, 528 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: the folks paying the creators and funding these stories, the agents, 529 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,679 Speaker 1: the middlemen between the creators and the audience, both black 530 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 1: and white and beyond. 531 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 2: You got it. And if you're looking for another movie 532 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,360 Speaker 2: that breaks the fourth wall on the black struggle industrial complex, 533 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 2: I recommend watching Roda Blanks, the forty year old version. 534 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 2: That's version not virgin. It's on Netflix. 535 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 1: And with that, it's time for roll credits, the segment 536 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,360 Speaker 1: where we give credit to a person, place, or thing 537 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: for the week. Katie, what's you given credit to this week? 538 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: This week? 539 00:28:55,480 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 2: I would like to give credit to clothes swapping. I'm 540 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 2: in my not buy as much stuff bag, and it 541 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 2: used to be like, whenever I thought I needed some 542 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 2: piece of clothing, I would go buy it. But now 543 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 2: I just ask somebody else, like do you have this? 544 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 2: Can I wear it for this for this day? And 545 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 2: sometimes I do? What would you like to give credit 546 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 2: to this week? 547 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 1: This week? I would like to give credit to incense 548 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: because Katie, you know I like smells it smells make 549 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,959 Speaker 1: me feel really good. So like when I wake up 550 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: in the morning, it's a ritual for me to turn 551 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: on my essential oil diffusers and like my incense. And 552 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: I don't have that many candles, so if anybody wants 553 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 1: to give me any candles, you can. But I love smells, 554 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 1: so they made me feel better. So that's what I 555 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 1: want to give credit to this week. 556 00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 2: And with that, we will see you next week. 557 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 1: Bye y'all, bye. On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio 558 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: and Fairweather Friends Media. This episode was written by Eves 559 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:18,360 Speaker 1: Jeffco and Katie Mitchell. 560 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 2: It was produced by Tari Harrison and edited in sound 561 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:22,719 Speaker 2: designed by Dylan Fagan. 562 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,680 Speaker 1: Follow us on Instagram at on Themeshow. You can also 563 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: send us an email at Hello at on Theme dot Show. 564 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: You can head to our website on Theme dot Show 565 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 1: to find the show notes for all episodes. For more 566 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 1: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 567 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.