WEBVTT - The Waiting, Part 2 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.280 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:14.239 My Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:17.400 your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:19.520 and we're back with part two of our talk about 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:23.160 queuing and waiting in line. We've got lots more stuff 0:00:23.200 --> 0:00:26.799 to get into today, a queuing psychology, the horror and 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:28.760 the anguish of cutting in line. It's going to be 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.279 a blast. But first we'd like to start with with 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:35.800 really a proper look at the British queue. Uh. This 0:00:35.840 --> 0:00:38.400 is something that we even heard from listening, a listener 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:40.199 by the name of the about saying, hey, how come 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:43.400 you guys didn't talk more about about waiting in line 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:46.479 in merry old England. And so let's get into that 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:48.320 a bit. But before we do, I thought i'd just 0:00:48.360 --> 0:00:52.280 thrown a quick quote from William Shakespeare quote I am 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:56.920 to wait, though waiting so be hell so be? Well, 0:00:56.920 --> 0:00:59.720 what's soll um? It's from one of his sonnets. The 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:03.000 number is eluding me at the moment. Oh yeah, yeah, 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:05.800 son at fifty eight. Okay, let me suffer being at 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:08.880 your back. This is the abject one. Now to be sure, 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:10.800 he's not what he's not talking about waiting in line, 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:13.800 but I feel like it could apply to the modern 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:16.720 experience of waiting in line, because waiting in line so 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:19.400 be hell as well unless you make waiting in line 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:22.360 part of your identity, and then you can every time 0:01:22.400 --> 0:01:24.200 you have to do it, you can get real excited 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:27.400 about how good at it you are. Yes, yes, uh, 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:30.959 And perhaps this is this is getting into the British 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:33.840 spirit of the thing. So in the previous episode I 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:38.200 briefly mentioned British criticisms of queuing as socialism. So I 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:39.360 thought I had to go and I thought I'd go 0:01:39.360 --> 0:01:43.679 into this a bit more. Uh. Is it regards the 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:46.280 history of queuing in Britain, And I was looking at 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:49.560 an article titled Queuing Up in Post War Britain by 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:53.560 Joe Moran, published in twentieth Century British History, Volume sixteen 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:56.400 that came out in the year two thousand and five. Yeah, 0:01:56.440 --> 0:01:59.400 I've read a number of things about queuing where where 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:02.880 this author, Joe Moran is cited, and he appears to 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:05.920 be kind of a historian of everyday life, which is 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:07.880 a field that I find a lot of interest in, 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:10.640 like um studying, not just like you know, the big 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:13.680 events of history, the wars and the political changes and 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:16.400 all that. But but what people had to do in 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:20.440 the little, less noted moments of day to day existence. Yeah, 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:21.919 a lot of times one of the big stuff is 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:25.280 going on, what are the little things? And oftentimes, and 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:28.160 this comes out in in this particular paper, you see 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:32.440 the larger events and the larger movements of the day, 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:35.359 you see it all filtering down to to the day 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:38.080 to day level, and in this case concerning waiting in 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:41.640 lines for things. So in the immediate post war period, 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:45.320 post World War Two, amid scarcity problems, you had queuing 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:48.240 and there was a sense of queuing as an absolute good. 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:50.200 It was the state. You know, you're you're doing your part. 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:53.160 It's important that we wait in line. It's important that 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:55.959 we work together and we socially organize in order to 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:59.880 make sure that we get what we needed in the scarcity. Yeah, 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:02.000 that's true. I mean, I think it really became part 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:05.160 of the British identity in the post World War two period. 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:08.360 But it was also a big part of the of 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:12.359 British sort of internal propaganda messaging during World War Two, 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:13.960 because there was a time when you know, you were 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:16.840 dealing with a lot of scarcity of goods within the 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:19.560 country as well, and there was a kind of national 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:23.040 messaging campaign that was like, hey, you know, do your part. 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:26.040 Good British citizens, they do their duty, they wait their 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:32.320 turn for things. You you display the British virtues of calmness, decency, fairness. 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:34.640 This is the British way. Yeah, it's like mine, name 0:03:34.720 --> 0:03:36.800 the gap. It's just what you're supposed to do as 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:39.680 a as a proper British person. And you had a 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:41.760 number of authors of the day even commenting on this. 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:45.080 Author George Orwell wrote that a foreign visitor to Britain 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:47.640 would have been struck by the quote orderly behavior of 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:51.480 English crowds, the lack of pushing and quarreling, the willingness 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:55.360 to form cues. And then there's a famous George mis 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:59.440 quote from quote an Englishman, even if he is alone, 0:03:59.560 --> 0:04:02.760 forms an orderly queue of one. Right, So sort of 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:06.360 writing it into the political identity or the national character 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:10.120 of of Great Britain. Right. So so for these authors 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:13.200 and many other commentators, quing behavior was sub political and 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:16.280 all about the greater good in a proper English fashion. 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:19.240 But queuing had been seen in a in a very 0:04:19.240 --> 0:04:22.000 different light as well, not only as a sort of 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:26.440 creeping socialism, but as a byproduct of wartime scarcity that 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:30.640 damaged morale and impacted women more than men. Uh The 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:33.200 idea here being that the women would be the ones 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:35.559 going out during the day and waiting in lines for things. 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:38.520 And there were there were various voices talking about well 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:40.800 this this might be a detriment to their health as well, 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:43.560 like these women should not be standing in line for 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:45.880 long periods of time. Why do we have long lines? 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:48.680 So Marn rights that these cues, we have all these 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:51.080 other things going on to For instance, he writes that 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:55.960 these these cues were also a hotbed of anti semitism, 0:04:56.279 --> 0:05:00.520 along with other resentments and accusations at other customers but 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:04.560 also against shopkeepers. Uh So, queuing, despite it being tied 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:08.440 in with these ideas of national pride and and necessity, 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:13.120 it was also highly unpopular and therefore rife for politicization. 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:17.360 So it became a divisive topic that politicians latched onto. 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:19.440 And this is where you get into the whole creeping 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:23.839 socialism thing. Yeah, it seems to me that queuing throughout 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:28.320 its history has often gotten charged up with political, social, 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:33.120 and moral baggage. Like people trying to use queuing or 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:37.119 aspects of queuing to make a point about some pet 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:40.680 issue they have. So you'll often see like politicians and 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:46.040 cultural critics um attacking queuing as symbolic of something they 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:48.360 believe to be nefarious. In some cases, like you could 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:53.320 have conservative politicians saying that it's somehow, somehow emblematic of 0:05:53.400 --> 0:05:57.159 socialism or of government control. But there's another strain of 0:05:57.160 --> 0:05:59.600 a similar type of thinking that I know I've encountered before. 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:01.440 I was trying to think of a really good specific 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:04.040 example to point too, and I couldn't, But I know 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:06.440 I've heard something like this from a general just kind 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:11.320 of anti conformity rant. You hear people say like schools 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:13.640 trying to teach you to conform. Man, they want to 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:16.520 turn you into sheep so that you can't think for yourself. 0:06:16.560 --> 0:06:18.880 They want you to do what you're told and stand 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:21.760 in line and wait your turn. And to me, this 0:06:21.839 --> 0:06:25.640 is such a tragic conflation of like unrelated issues. Obviously, 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:28.640 you know it's good to think for yourself and have 0:06:28.800 --> 0:06:32.120 the courage to resist social pressure to conform to do 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:36.120 something wrong or immoral, But there's like nothing intelligent or 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:40.000 morally courageous about resisting waiting your turn for a service. 0:06:40.080 --> 0:06:42.640 That's just being a jerk. Yeah, I agree. I mean 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:45.240 I don't think this is what um Pink Floyd's The 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:50.440 Wall was about. UM. So, if anyone out there wants 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:53.600 just a really nice kind of deep dive into all 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:56.240 of this, I do suggest that mern article. He goes 0:06:56.279 --> 0:06:59.560 into wonderful detail, but ultimately he surmises that you see 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:02.440 the shift over time from queuing and as an example 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:06.159 of the best of proper Britishness, to a symbol of 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:09.440 the British disease UH, and then ultimately to a less 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:12.840 politicized reality that can be beneficial or harmful depending on 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:16.240 the circumstance. UM. I want to read a quote from 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:18.320 him that I think drives home this kind of dual 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:23.320 nature quote. People have been complaining about UH, the disintegration 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:25.960 of Q discipline for almost as long as they have 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:30.040 been lauding the que as the essence of British decency, 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:33.200 perhaps because the myth carries such symbolic weight that it 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:38.240 cannot be sustained by the necessarily messier reality. The notion 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:41.640 of cues as the embodiment of fairness and equality has 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:46.240 also existed alongside other discourses which have seen them as tedious, 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:49.840 unfair and inefficient. So yeah, it's it's like you said, 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:53.800 the lines, the cues, they kind of become whatever you 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:57.120 need them to be, depending on what your argument is 0:07:57.160 --> 0:08:00.400 and what the particular example is that was actually reading 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:02.840 a BBC News article from a few years back that 0:08:03.040 --> 0:08:08.800 quoted uh this historian Joe Moran extensively uh in talking 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:11.440 about these various ideas about ques over the years, and 0:08:11.480 --> 0:08:13.840 he brings up this very thing about how like some 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:15.920 of the same types of figures that you would in 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:20.200 previous decades have seen complaining about queuing as as a 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:23.160 sign of something wrong with the national character, are now 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:27.480 often seen complaining about the the decline of queuing discipline, 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:30.520 saying like complaining about bus stops and people are so 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:34.240 disorderly getting onto buses now. But I think in the 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:37.000 article Moran makes the case that actually what's going on 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:41.200 probably is the difference between queuing areas that have well 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:44.800 organized infrastructure that allows people to know where and how 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:48.160 to line up, versus queuing areas where people are forced 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:52.320 to self organized without any clear organizing principle, like you know, 0:08:52.679 --> 0:08:55.880 stanchions to stand between or something. Yeah. I mean, I 0:08:55.920 --> 0:08:57.520 guess a lot of it probably comes down to it, 0:08:57.559 --> 0:09:00.360 isn't there like a George Carlin debt about how fast 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:03.679 you're driving, and you know, it's like you either think 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:05.760 people are going too fast or too slow, but it's 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:08.840 based on whatever you are doing. So a lot of 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:10.280 this is going to come down to what is your 0:09:10.520 --> 0:09:14.440 experience right now? Standing in line? Is the line tedious? 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:16.920 Is the line along well? And then perhaps you're inclined 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:20.280 to apply that to queues and lines in general or 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:22.839 order in general. You know, like I could see where 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:28.319 one awful queuing experience could almost make you an anarchist 0:09:28.640 --> 0:09:31.600 at least for you know, a couple of hours before 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:33.880 you calm down. But see, the funny thing is, I 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:36.840 think an anarchist should be especially in love with queuing 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:40.400 because queuing is a self organizing principle by which people 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:43.600 order access to things. So if you're an anarchist, queuing 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:45.320 should be like that. That should be like your go 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:48.040 to example of like how how you get things done 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:51.319 without top down control? Right? Yeah, yeah, unless you want 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:53.439 to say they are making you stand in line. This 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:57.079 is top down control. Uh, you know, in practice, because 0:09:57.120 --> 0:09:59.080 there's the sign telling you to do it. Oh yeah, 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:00.760 I guess that's another very creation on what I was 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:03.120 talking about a minute ago. That like attitude that like, oh, 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:05.320 standing in line and waiting your turn is like that's 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:07.280 a you know, wake up sheep all kind of thing. 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:10.440 You're you're being a sheep by doing that. Um, that's 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:14.199 just like confusing that because there is social pressure to 0:10:14.280 --> 0:10:17.240 do some things that are stupid and bad. Therefore anything 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:21.880 there is social pressure to do is stupid and bad. Yeah, when, 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:24.440 in fact, I just want to reiterate again, if you 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:27.000 are being a jerk about the line, you're the problem. 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:29.400 It's not everybody else. Now, one thing to keep in 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:31.280 mind about queuing is that for many of us, this 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:33.760 is just simply how we grew up. You know, we're 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:37.280 taught very early on, often in school the importance of 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:40.600 forming lines, Like that's how that's how you get your lunch. Well, 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:42.960 at lunchtime, right, is you form up into a line, 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:45.480 maybe two lines, You make your way down the hall 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:48.520 and you you you go through the cafeteria and you 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:50.520 collect your food, and there's an order to all of this. 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:53.319 And and frankly, like I think back on it, and 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:56.920 I can't imagine it going another way. Uh, but I 0:10:56.920 --> 0:10:59.800 haven't really thought about this before. But this is a 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:01.319 you know, this is not going to be the case 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:05.800 with everybody. You're not gonna necessarily have been indoctrinated into 0:11:06.240 --> 0:11:09.320 queuing and line forming early on in life. And I 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:13.440 was reading about this in an interesting article by David 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:18.520 Charosha title Teaching, Queuing Culture and Early Childhood from twenty nineteen, 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:23.199 dealing specifically with queuing in Indonesia. Basically, they write that 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:27.280 while Indonesians are generally considered to be a very polite society, 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:31.440 there generally isn't a queuing culture. Quote. Indonesians will only 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:34.000 queue if they are forced into the system, for example, 0:11:34.080 --> 0:11:37.280 queuing at the bank with the ticketing system. And the 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:39.880 author goes on to point out that early indoctrination into 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:43.040 queuing culture is necessary for it to take hold, and 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:46.800 it has to be passed down generation to generation. So um, 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:49.240 I thought I thought it was interesting. I never I 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:51.400 don't think I've really seen that pointed out so much 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:52.640 to me, you know, I'm part of this just kind 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:55.240 of like growing up in a in a queuing culture, 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:57.719 you just kind of assume that this is this is 0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:00.480 the kind of of of order that is in stilled 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:03.400 in in you at at an early age. Yeah, And 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:06.880 it'd be interesting to see what aspects in particular of 0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:10.920 queuing culture are the ones that you know, you gain 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:13.360 that you learn in young childhood, and which are the 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:16.800 ones that are dependent on the individual circumstances you come across. 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:20.880 I don't know, but I would guess that that there 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:24.120 are certain kind of broad principles, like say, the incorporation 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:28.199 of the first and first out principle um that probably 0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:31.920 depend on early learning and uh, and that there are 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:35.359 other things such as like how lines are physically organized, 0:12:35.480 --> 0:12:38.560 or like how exceptions to the rule are handled that 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:43.120 might be more dependent on individual local circumstances. If that 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:46.199 makes any sense. Yeah, Like, wouldn't it be interesting if 0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:49.040 we if we went really went elementary school and all 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:51.800 of our self organizing lines and we all put ourselves 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:55.360 in alphabetical order whenever we're you know, trying to get 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:58.920 that you know, croissant sandwich or whatever in line, then 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:01.320 there just be a rush everybody to name their children 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:04.160 things that start with like four a's. Yeah, well we're 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:06.960 gonna go by last name. What elementary school did you 0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:09.880 go to? Oh? Well, then that just establishes like a 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:15.920 generational aristocracy of the people at the top of the alphabet. Now, um. 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:18.160 One thing to keep in mind about this, uh, this 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:20.600 example from Indonesia and this this author's work, is that 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:22.360 you know, when when we're talking about this, we're generally 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:25.040 dealing in in you know, generalities, we're dealing and if 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:27.840 you say, like, how how are English people at standing 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:30.560 in line? Well, you know that's a very broad statement 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:35.280 to make. But there's there's still some interesting insight to 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:38.520 be had from looking at some of these generalities that 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:41.920 have been pointed out by authors, um about queuing cultures 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:43.920 or the lack of a queuing culture. And I was 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:47.800 looking at one titled A Global Guide to Queuing Philosophies 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:51.719 from Wimbledon to Salpallo uh. And this was on Courts 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:54.880 by an author by the name of Rosie Spinks, with 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:58.560 the tidbits about the various cultures are added by different 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:03.600 reporters who have experience with the sighted countries. So I 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:06.760 recommend reading the whole article. And I assume again these 0:14:06.760 --> 0:14:09.800 are all generalities and subject to the problems of being 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:13.440 very general about queuing cultures. But I thought I might 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:15.720 run through them and just give you like the quick 0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:19.160 just couple of words summarizations on them. So let's start 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:22.480 with England. England good at queuing, okay, not not really 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:26.240 a surprise. Germany, the article says, not as good as 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:30.800 you might expect. Mexico, this was interesting, good, but you 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:33.680 have this added element of heat. A lot of the times, 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:36.200 if you're dealing with really intense son they say that 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:39.640 you're gonna end up with special rules and expectations coming 0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:42.400 into play, like did you bring a fan to the line? 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:44.280 That sort of thing, and are you the only one 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:47.600 in the line with a fan? So that's interesting you 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:51.520 think about environment and all of this. Now with mainland China, 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:55.400 they point out that their start generational differences. For older generations, 0:14:55.720 --> 0:15:00.000 it works in spirit, but reality favors the bold. So um, 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:03.720 if there's a chance to cut line, perhaps someone will, 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:06.840 but younger generations will be more likely to cue and 0:15:06.880 --> 0:15:10.360 are not concerned about being quote last in line. I've 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:13.240 actually read that in the past couple of decades there 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:16.200 have been like a lot of public messaging campaigns in 0:15:16.320 --> 0:15:19.240 China having to do with queuing as like a sort 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:23.000 of part of your civic duty. Specifically, I remember reading 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:25.160 about some of these campaigns in the lead up to 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:29.040 the Beijing Olympics in two thousand eight. Yeah. Now I 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:32.400 should also point out, um, you know there there you 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:34.960 also have areas like Hong Kong where there is a 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:37.560 strong queuing culture, and perhaps part of that is the 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:41.360 British influence. Um, India, there's a queuing culture, but according 0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:43.680 to this article, it's it tends to be a compact 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:46.920 queuing culture. So uh and maybe that's just has to 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:50.640 do with with major centers of population and the necessity 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:53.280 of forming lines that are going to be maybe you know, 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:57.560 have a little less space in them. America, the United States, 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:00.280 they say queuing is everywhere, but the exact rule rules 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:03.120 vary depending on where you are, which I think that 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:06.720 you know, vaguely matches up with my experience. Yeah, i'd 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:10.840 say so. Yeah. Malaysia cues form but easily break into disarray. 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:14.760 Poland they say there is a queuing culture with older 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:17.440 generations having lived in a time of long lines, so 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:20.400 you're gonna have, you know, varying attitudes towards what lines 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:25.120 are and what they mean. Italy, the author points, I 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:27.720 had never heard this before, but they this. The author 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:31.240 says that Italians sometimes talk about being bad at queuing, 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:34.600 but they're actually not that bad at queuing. I cannot 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:37.480 speak to this. I've never been to Italy, uh. But 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:39.760 with all of these I'd love to hear from anyone 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:42.760 out there who has direct connections, uh to to any 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:45.000 of these cultures or has traveled there. Perhaps you can 0:16:45.000 --> 0:16:47.600 shed a little more light on some of these ideas. 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:52.360 UM Brazil pretty solid queueing culture in major cities. South Africa, 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:56.640 strong queuing culture. This was an interesting Thailand strong queuing culture, 0:16:56.880 --> 0:17:01.000 but with some interesting extra rules. So they UM an 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:04.280 author by the name of Adam Passik who shares a 0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:08.800 photo of people who have deposited their shoes and books 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:12.320 on on the floor to signify their place in line 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:15.680 while they wait for an office to open. So it's 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:18.160 kind of it is. It is very smart. It gives 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:21.040 you a chance to sit down, but you just place 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:23.240 your shoes or I think in one case it looks 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:26.199 like a book or a folder. Uh, yeah, it's mostly 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:29.760 shoes in this photo, because if I remember correctly, there 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:32.480 are some taboos in Thailand against the placing of books 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:34.480 on the ground, So I'm not even sure that's a 0:17:34.520 --> 0:17:38.320 book in that photo. But anyway, it's mostly shoes. But 0:17:38.359 --> 0:17:40.040 it also kind of looks like the people that were 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:43.439 in line have evaporated and vanished and left only their 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:48.760 shoes behind. That's the rapture at the Bangkok DMV. Yeah 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:51.960 kind of uh. In this article they say that in 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:55.520 the Philippines it seems like queuing culture is highly influenced 0:17:55.520 --> 0:18:00.000 by social standing. And in Nigeria you have a queuing culture, 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:03.920 but some people may choose to sit or hang out nearby, 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:07.280 you know, instead of standing in line the whole time, 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:10.760 and have someone who is standing in line, uh, physically 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:13.560 to hold their spot for them. So lines can be 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:16.120 deceiving when you first arrived, do you find out who 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:18.600 all is actually waiting? In a way, this makes sense 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:20.800 right if you have, especially say the line is is 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:23.520 out in the sign or something, and you have, you know, 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:26.240 an elderly person that doesn't want to stand in the 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:27.760 whole time, you get somebody to hold their place, that 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:32.320 sort of thing. Sure. Yeah, this raises a question of, um, 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:36.320 what do you consider, like what counts as strict adherents 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:39.960 to queuing culture. Does it count as strict adherence to 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:43.240 queuing culture if you're just doing it in the abstract 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:47.760 meaning there's strong enforcement of an organized first and first 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:52.600 out principle, or does it also entail physical ordering of 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:55.159 your of your body in terms of the first and 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:58.119 first out principle? You know what I mean? Yeah? Yeah? 0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:00.800 For example, another type of very ation on this one 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:03.200 that sounds like it adheres to the first in, first 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:07.000 outqueuing principle in the abstract of like how the waiting 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:10.600 system functions but doesn't take the form of a single 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:14.199 file line. Uh. This example is that. Uh. And I 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:16.960 was reading about this in an article for the BBC 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:20.360 by David Robson about how in Spain and in some 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:24.639 Spanish speaking countries, a common alternative to physically standing in 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:29.119 line is the kines ultimo principle, so that that you 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:33.119 would go into say a cafe, where various people are 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:36.520 waiting for service, and instead of standing in line, you 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:40.960 ask kins ultimo, who is last, and then that person indicates, yeah, 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:43.320 I'm the last person in line, and so you know 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:46.800 that that person is now the person who you go after, 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:49.240 and they know the person ahead of them, and the 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:52.320 person ahead of them knows the person ahead of them, 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:55.000 and so everybody will still go in order, being just 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:57.439 kind of hang out and wait for the person you 0:19:57.480 --> 0:19:59.760 know who is ahead of you to get their service 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:03.119 and then you're next. So interesting to me and that 0:20:03.240 --> 0:20:06.600 it's still functionally a single file, first in, first out queue, 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:08.760 but without the physical line, kind of like what you 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:12.680 were describing people might do in Nigeria. Yeah, I will 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:16.040 say from my own experience, I find it particularly confusing 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:18.879 when you have two different queuing systems going on at 0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:20.200 the same time. I don't know if you've ever had 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:22.879 this experience, Like if you you show up somewhere and 0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:25.760 there is some sort of there they're they're doing both 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:29.480 pre arranged appointments and walk in at the same time. 0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:32.560 Because then it creates confusion. It's like, well, who is next? 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:34.359 Is that the person who is scheduled for this time 0:20:34.800 --> 0:20:36.560 or the person who is ahead of me in the 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:40.360 physical line? You know, it creates this ambiguity, uh that 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:43.280 it does not seem good for the whole waiting experience. Well, 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:45.640 it's funny that you bring up ambiguity, because I wanted 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:48.840 to get into the concept of the dangers of ambiguity 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:51.920 with reference to cutting in line. So are you ready 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:54.520 to talk about cutting in line? Rob Let's talk about cutting? 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:03.640 So I started off by thinking about the question, Okay, 0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:06.840 what do you actually do if somebody cuts in front 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:10.480 of you in line? And in thinking about this, I 0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:15.320 was struck by how rarely that has actually happened in 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:18.520 my life, Like, it is such a rare occurrence that 0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:22.000 I struggle to think of specific examples that that come 0:21:22.040 --> 0:21:24.240 to mind. I guess when it has happened, it hasn't 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:28.919 registered as something immensely important to me, um but it. 0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:33.200 But it's also just so rare uh. And I think 0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:36.320 in my experience what it is is that it's very 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:39.800