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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of

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Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow

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Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick,

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Speaker 1: and we're back with part two of our talk about

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Speaker 1: queuing and waiting in line. We've got lots more stuff

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Speaker 1: to get into today, a queuing psychology, the horror and

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Speaker 1: the anguish of cutting in line. It's going to be

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Speaker 1: a blast. But first we'd like to start with with

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Speaker 1: really a proper look at the British queue. Uh. This

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Speaker 1: is something that we even heard from listening, a listener

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Speaker 1: by the name of the about saying, hey, how come

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Speaker 1: you guys didn't talk more about about waiting in line

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Speaker 1: in merry old England. And so let's get into that

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Speaker 1: a bit. But before we do, I thought i'd just

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Speaker 1: thrown a quick quote from William Shakespeare quote I am

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Speaker 1: to wait, though waiting so be hell so be? Well,

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Speaker 1: what's soll um? It's from one of his sonnets. The

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Speaker 1: number is eluding me at the moment. Oh yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: son at fifty eight. Okay, let me suffer being at

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Speaker 1: your back. This is the abject one. Now to be sure,

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Speaker 1: he's not what he's not talking about waiting in line,

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Speaker 1: but I feel like it could apply to the modern

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Speaker 1: experience of waiting in line, because waiting in line so

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Speaker 1: be hell as well unless you make waiting in line

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Speaker 1: part of your identity, and then you can every time

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Speaker 1: you have to do it, you can get real excited

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Speaker 1: about how good at it you are. Yes, yes, uh,

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Speaker 1: And perhaps this is this is getting into the British

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Speaker 1: spirit of the thing. So in the previous episode I

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Speaker 1: briefly mentioned British criticisms of queuing as socialism. So I

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Speaker 1: thought I had to go and I thought I'd go

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Speaker 1: into this a bit more. Uh. Is it regards the

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Speaker 1: history of queuing in Britain, And I was looking at

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Speaker 1: an article titled Queuing Up in Post War Britain by

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Speaker 1: Joe Moran, published in twentieth Century British History, Volume sixteen

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Speaker 1: that came out in the year two thousand and five. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've read a number of things about queuing where where

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Speaker 1: this author, Joe Moran is cited, and he appears to

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Speaker 1: be kind of a historian of everyday life, which is

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Speaker 1: a field that I find a lot of interest in,

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Speaker 1: like um studying, not just like you know, the big

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Speaker 1: events of history, the wars and the political changes and

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Speaker 1: all that. But but what people had to do in

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Speaker 1: the little, less noted moments of day to day existence. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: a lot of times one of the big stuff is

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Speaker 1: going on, what are the little things? And oftentimes, and

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Speaker 1: this comes out in in this particular paper, you see

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Speaker 1: the larger events and the larger movements of the day,

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Speaker 1: you see it all filtering down to to the day

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Speaker 1: to day level, and in this case concerning waiting in

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Speaker 1: lines for things. So in the immediate post war period,

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Speaker 1: post World War Two, amid scarcity problems, you had queuing

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Speaker 1: and there was a sense of queuing as an absolute good.

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Speaker 1: It was the state. You know, you're you're doing your part.

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Speaker 1: It's important that we wait in line. It's important that

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Speaker 1: we work together and we socially organize in order to

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Speaker 1: make sure that we get what we needed in the scarcity. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's true. I mean, I think it really became part

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Speaker 1: of the British identity in the post World War two period.

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Speaker 1: But it was also a big part of the of

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Speaker 1: British sort of internal propaganda messaging during World War Two,

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Speaker 1: because there was a time when you know, you were

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Speaker 1: dealing with a lot of scarcity of goods within the

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Speaker 1: country as well, and there was a kind of national

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Speaker 1: messaging campaign that was like, hey, you know, do your part.

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Speaker 1: Good British citizens, they do their duty, they wait their

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Speaker 1: turn for things. You you display the British virtues of calmness, decency, fairness.

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Speaker 1: This is the British way. Yeah, it's like mine, name

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Speaker 1: the gap. It's just what you're supposed to do as

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Speaker 1: a as a proper British person. And you had a

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Speaker 1: number of authors of the day even commenting on this.

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Speaker 1: Author George Orwell wrote that a foreign visitor to Britain

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Speaker 1: would have been struck by the quote orderly behavior of

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Speaker 1: English crowds, the lack of pushing and quarreling, the willingness

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Speaker 1: to form cues. And then there's a famous George mis

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Speaker 1: quote from quote an Englishman, even if he is alone,

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Speaker 1: forms an orderly queue of one. Right, So sort of

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Speaker 1: writing it into the political identity or the national character

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Speaker 1: of of Great Britain. Right. So so for these authors

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Speaker 1: and many other commentators, quing behavior was sub political and

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Speaker 1: all about the greater good in a proper English fashion.

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Speaker 1: But queuing had been seen in a in a very

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Speaker 1: different light as well, not only as a sort of

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Speaker 1: creeping socialism, but as a byproduct of wartime scarcity that

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Speaker 1: damaged morale and impacted women more than men. Uh The

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Speaker 1: idea here being that the women would be the ones

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Speaker 1: going out during the day and waiting in lines for things.

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Speaker 1: And there were there were various voices talking about well

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Speaker 1: this this might be a detriment to their health as well,

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Speaker 1: like these women should not be standing in line for

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Speaker 1: long periods of time. Why do we have long lines?

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Speaker 1: So Marn rights that these cues, we have all these

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Speaker 1: other things going on to For instance, he writes that

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Speaker 1: these these cues were also a hotbed of anti semitism,

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Speaker 1: along with other resentments and accusations at other customers but

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Speaker 1: also against shopkeepers. Uh So, queuing, despite it being tied

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Speaker 1: in with these ideas of national pride and and necessity,

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Speaker 1: it was also highly unpopular and therefore rife for politicization.

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Speaker 1: So it became a divisive topic that politicians latched onto.

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Speaker 1: And this is where you get into the whole creeping

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Speaker 1: socialism thing. Yeah, it seems to me that queuing throughout

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Speaker 1: its history has often gotten charged up with political, social,

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Speaker 1: and moral baggage. Like people trying to use queuing or

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Speaker 1: aspects of queuing to make a point about some pet

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Speaker 1: issue they have. So you'll often see like politicians and

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Speaker 1: cultural critics um attacking queuing as symbolic of something they

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Speaker 1: believe to be nefarious. In some cases, like you could

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Speaker 1: have conservative politicians saying that it's somehow, somehow emblematic of

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Speaker 1: socialism or of government control. But there's another strain of

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Speaker 1: a similar type of thinking that I know I've encountered before.

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Speaker 1: I was trying to think of a really good specific

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Speaker 1: example to point too, and I couldn't, But I know

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Speaker 1: I've heard something like this from a general just kind

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Speaker 1: of anti conformity rant. You hear people say like schools

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Speaker 1: trying to teach you to conform. Man, they want to

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Speaker 1: turn you into sheep so that you can't think for yourself.

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Speaker 1: They want you to do what you're told and stand

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Speaker 1: in line and wait your turn. And to me, this

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Speaker 1: is such a tragic conflation of like unrelated issues. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: you know it's good to think for yourself and have

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Speaker 1: the courage to resist social pressure to conform to do

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Speaker 1: something wrong or immoral, But there's like nothing intelligent or

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Speaker 1: morally courageous about resisting waiting your turn for a service.

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Speaker 1: That's just being a jerk. Yeah, I agree. I mean

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Speaker 1: I don't think this is what um Pink Floyd's The

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Speaker 1: Wall was about. UM. So, if anyone out there wants

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Speaker 1: just a really nice kind of deep dive into all

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Speaker 1: of this, I do suggest that mern article. He goes

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Speaker 1: into wonderful detail, but ultimately he surmises that you see

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Speaker 1: the shift over time from queuing and as an example

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Speaker 1: of the best of proper Britishness, to a symbol of

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Speaker 1: the British disease UH, and then ultimately to a less

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Speaker 1: politicized reality that can be beneficial or harmful depending on

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Speaker 1: the circumstance. UM. I want to read a quote from

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Speaker 1: him that I think drives home this kind of dual

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Speaker 1: nature quote. People have been complaining about UH, the disintegration

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Speaker 1: of Q discipline for almost as long as they have

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Speaker 1: been lauding the que as the essence of British decency,

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Speaker 1: perhaps because the myth carries such symbolic weight that it

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Speaker 1: cannot be sustained by the necessarily messier reality. The notion

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Speaker 1: of cues as the embodiment of fairness and equality has

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Speaker 1: also existed alongside other discourses which have seen them as tedious,

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Speaker 1: unfair and inefficient. So yeah, it's it's like you said,

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Speaker 1: the lines, the cues, they kind of become whatever you

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Speaker 1: need them to be, depending on what your argument is

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Speaker 1: and what the particular example is that was actually reading

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Speaker 1: a BBC News article from a few years back that

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Speaker 1: quoted uh this historian Joe Moran extensively uh in talking

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Speaker 1: about these various ideas about ques over the years, and

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Speaker 1: he brings up this very thing about how like some

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Speaker 1: of the same types of figures that you would in

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Speaker 1: previous decades have seen complaining about queuing as as a

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Speaker 1: sign of something wrong with the national character, are now

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Speaker 1: often seen complaining about the the decline of queuing discipline,

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Speaker 1: saying like complaining about bus stops and people are so

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Speaker 1: disorderly getting onto buses now. But I think in the

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Speaker 1: article Moran makes the case that actually what's going on

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Speaker 1: probably is the difference between queuing areas that have well

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Speaker 1: organized infrastructure that allows people to know where and how

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Speaker 1: to line up, versus queuing areas where people are forced

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Speaker 1: to self organized without any clear organizing principle, like you know,

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Speaker 1: stanchions to stand between or something. Yeah. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: guess a lot of it probably comes down to it,

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Speaker 1: isn't there like a George Carlin debt about how fast

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Speaker 1: you're driving, and you know, it's like you either think

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Speaker 1: people are going too fast or too slow, but it's

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Speaker 1: based on whatever you are doing. So a lot of

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Speaker 1: this is going to come down to what is your

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Speaker 1: experience right now? Standing in line? Is the line tedious?

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Speaker 1: Is the line along well? And then perhaps you're inclined

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Speaker 1: to apply that to queues and lines in general or

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Speaker 1: order in general. You know, like I could see where

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Speaker 1: one awful queuing experience could almost make you an anarchist

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Speaker 1: at least for you know, a couple of hours before

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Speaker 1: you calm down. But see, the funny thing is, I

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Speaker 1: think an anarchist should be especially in love with queuing

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Speaker 1: because queuing is a self organizing principle by which people

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Speaker 1: order access to things. So if you're an anarchist, queuing

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Speaker 1: should be like that. That should be like your go

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Speaker 1: to example of like how how you get things done

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Speaker 1: without top down control? Right? Yeah, yeah, unless you want

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Speaker 1: to say they are making you stand in line. This

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Speaker 1: is top down control. Uh, you know, in practice, because

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Speaker 1: there's the sign telling you to do it. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I guess that's another very creation on what I was

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Speaker 1: talking about a minute ago. That like attitude that like, oh,

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Speaker 1: standing in line and waiting your turn is like that's

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Speaker 1: a you know, wake up sheep all kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: You're you're being a sheep by doing that. Um, that's

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Speaker 1: just like confusing that because there is social pressure to

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Speaker 1: do some things that are stupid and bad. Therefore anything

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Speaker 1: there is social pressure to do is stupid and bad. Yeah, when,

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Speaker 1: in fact, I just want to reiterate again, if you

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Speaker 1: are being a jerk about the line, you're the problem.

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Speaker 1: It's not everybody else. Now, one thing to keep in

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Speaker 1: mind about queuing is that for many of us, this

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Speaker 1: is just simply how we grew up. You know, we're

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Speaker 1: taught very early on, often in school the importance of

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Speaker 1: forming lines, Like that's how that's how you get your lunch. Well,

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Speaker 1: at lunchtime, right, is you form up into a line,

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Speaker 1: maybe two lines, You make your way down the hall

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Speaker 1: and you you you go through the cafeteria and you

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Speaker 1: collect your food, and there's an order to all of this.

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Speaker 1: And and frankly, like I think back on it, and

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine it going another way. Uh, but I

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Speaker 1: haven't really thought about this before. But this is a

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Speaker 1: you know, this is not going to be the case

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Speaker 1: with everybody. You're not gonna necessarily have been indoctrinated into

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Speaker 1: queuing and line forming early on in life. And I

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Speaker 1: was reading about this in an interesting article by David

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Speaker 1: Charosha title Teaching, Queuing Culture and Early Childhood from twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 1: dealing specifically with queuing in Indonesia. Basically, they write that

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Speaker 1: while Indonesians are generally considered to be a very polite society,

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Speaker 1: there generally isn't a queuing culture. Quote. Indonesians will only

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Speaker 1: queue if they are forced into the system, for example,

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Speaker 1: queuing at the bank with the ticketing system. And the

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Speaker 1: author goes on to point out that early indoctrination into

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Speaker 1: queuing culture is necessary for it to take hold, and

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Speaker 1: it has to be passed down generation to generation. So um,

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Speaker 1: I thought I thought it was interesting. I never I

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Speaker 1: don't think I've really seen that pointed out so much

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Speaker 1: to me, you know, I'm part of this just kind

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Speaker 1: of like growing up in a in a queuing culture,

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Speaker 1: you just kind of assume that this is this is

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Speaker 1: the kind of of of order that is in stilled

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Speaker 1: in in you at at an early age. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: it'd be interesting to see what aspects in particular of

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Speaker 1: queuing culture are the ones that you know, you gain

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Speaker 1: that you learn in young childhood, and which are the

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Speaker 1: ones that are dependent on the individual circumstances you come across.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, but I would guess that that there

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Speaker 1: are certain kind of broad principles, like say, the incorporation

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Speaker 1: of the first and first out principle um that probably

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Speaker 1: depend on early learning and uh, and that there are

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Speaker 1: other things such as like how lines are physically organized,

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Speaker 1: or like how exceptions to the rule are handled that

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Speaker 1: might be more dependent on individual local circumstances. If that

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Speaker 1: makes any sense. Yeah, Like, wouldn't it be interesting if

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Speaker 1: we if we went really went elementary school and all

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Speaker 1: of our self organizing lines and we all put ourselves

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Speaker 1: in alphabetical order whenever we're you know, trying to get

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Speaker 1: that you know, croissant sandwich or whatever in line, then

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Speaker 1: there just be a rush everybody to name their children

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Speaker 1: things that start with like four a's. Yeah, well we're

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Speaker 1: gonna go by last name. What elementary school did you

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Speaker 1: go to? Oh? Well, then that just establishes like a

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Speaker 1: generational aristocracy of the people at the top of the alphabet. Now, um.

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Speaker 1: One thing to keep in mind about this, uh, this

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Speaker 1: example from Indonesia and this this author's work, is that

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Speaker 1: you know, when when we're talking about this, we're generally

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Speaker 1: dealing in in you know, generalities, we're dealing and if

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Speaker 1: you say, like, how how are English people at standing

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Speaker 1: in line? Well, you know that's a very broad statement

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Speaker 1: to make. But there's there's still some interesting insight to

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Speaker 1: be had from looking at some of these generalities that

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Speaker 1: have been pointed out by authors, um about queuing cultures

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Speaker 1: or the lack of a queuing culture. And I was

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Speaker 1: looking at one titled A Global Guide to Queuing Philosophies

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Speaker 1: from Wimbledon to Salpallo uh. And this was on Courts

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Speaker 1: by an author by the name of Rosie Spinks, with

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Speaker 1: the tidbits about the various cultures are added by different

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Speaker 1: reporters who have experience with the sighted countries. So I

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Speaker 1: recommend reading the whole article. And I assume again these

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Speaker 1: are all generalities and subject to the problems of being

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Speaker 1: very general about queuing cultures. But I thought I might

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Speaker 1: run through them and just give you like the quick

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Speaker 1: just couple of words summarizations on them. So let's start

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Speaker 1: with England. England good at queuing, okay, not not really

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Speaker 1: a surprise. Germany, the article says, not as good as

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Speaker 1: you might expect. Mexico, this was interesting, good, but you

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Speaker 1: have this added element of heat. A lot of the times,

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Speaker 1: if you're dealing with really intense son they say that

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Speaker 1: you're gonna end up with special rules and expectations coming

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Speaker 1: into play, like did you bring a fan to the line?

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Speaker 1: That sort of thing, and are you the only one

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Speaker 1: in the line with a fan? So that's interesting you

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Speaker 1: think about environment and all of this. Now with mainland China,

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Speaker 1: they point out that their start generational differences. For older generations,

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Speaker 1: it works in spirit, but reality favors the bold. So um,

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Speaker 1: if there's a chance to cut line, perhaps someone will,

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Speaker 1: but younger generations will be more likely to cue and

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Speaker 1: are not concerned about being quote last in line. I've

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Speaker 1: actually read that in the past couple of decades there

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Speaker 1: have been like a lot of public messaging campaigns in

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Speaker 1: China having to do with queuing as like a sort

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Speaker 1: of part of your civic duty. Specifically, I remember reading

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Speaker 1: about some of these campaigns in the lead up to

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Speaker 1: the Beijing Olympics in two thousand eight. Yeah. Now I

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Speaker 1: should also point out, um, you know there there you

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Speaker 1: also have areas like Hong Kong where there is a

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Speaker 1: strong queuing culture, and perhaps part of that is the

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Speaker 1: British influence. Um, India, there's a queuing culture, but according

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Speaker 1: to this article, it's it tends to be a compact

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Speaker 1: queuing culture. So uh and maybe that's just has to

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Speaker 1: do with with major centers of population and the necessity

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Speaker 1: of forming lines that are going to be maybe you know,

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Speaker 1: have a little less space in them. America, the United States,

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Speaker 1: they say queuing is everywhere, but the exact rule rules

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Speaker 1: vary depending on where you are, which I think that

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Speaker 1: you know, vaguely matches up with my experience. Yeah, i'd

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Speaker 1: say so. Yeah. Malaysia cues form but easily break into disarray.

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Speaker 1: Poland they say there is a queuing culture with older

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Speaker 1: generations having lived in a time of long lines, so

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Speaker 1: you're gonna have, you know, varying attitudes towards what lines

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Speaker 1: are and what they mean. Italy, the author points, I

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Speaker 1: had never heard this before, but they this. The author

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Speaker 1: says that Italians sometimes talk about being bad at queuing,

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Speaker 1: but they're actually not that bad at queuing. I cannot

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Speaker 1: speak to this. I've never been to Italy, uh. But

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Speaker 1: with all of these I'd love to hear from anyone

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Speaker 1: out there who has direct connections, uh to to any

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Speaker 1: of these cultures or has traveled there. Perhaps you can

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Speaker 1: shed a little more light on some of these ideas.

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Speaker 1: UM Brazil pretty solid queueing culture in major cities. South Africa,

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Speaker 1: strong queuing culture. This was an interesting Thailand strong queuing culture,

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Speaker 1: but with some interesting extra rules. So they UM an

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Speaker 1: author by the name of Adam Passik who shares a

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Speaker 1: photo of people who have deposited their shoes and books

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Speaker 1: on on the floor to signify their place in line

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Speaker 1: while they wait for an office to open. So it's

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Speaker 1: kind of it is. It is very smart. It gives

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Speaker 1: you a chance to sit down, but you just place

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Speaker 1: your shoes or I think in one case it looks

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Speaker 1: like a book or a folder. Uh, yeah, it's mostly

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Speaker 1: shoes in this photo, because if I remember correctly, there

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Speaker 1: are some taboos in Thailand against the placing of books

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Speaker 1: on the ground, So I'm not even sure that's a

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Speaker 1: book in that photo. But anyway, it's mostly shoes. But

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Speaker 1: it also kind of looks like the people that were

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Speaker 1: in line have evaporated and vanished and left only their

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Speaker 1: shoes behind. That's the rapture at the Bangkok DMV. Yeah

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Speaker 1: kind of uh. In this article they say that in

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Speaker 1: the Philippines it seems like queuing culture is highly influenced

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Speaker 1: by social standing. And in Nigeria you have a queuing culture,

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Speaker 1: but some people may choose to sit or hang out nearby,

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Speaker 1: you know, instead of standing in line the whole time,

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Speaker 1: and have someone who is standing in line, uh, physically

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Speaker 1: to hold their spot for them. So lines can be

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Speaker 1: deceiving when you first arrived, do you find out who

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Speaker 1: all is actually waiting? In a way, this makes sense

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Speaker 1: right if you have, especially say the line is is

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Speaker 1: out in the sign or something, and you have, you know,

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Speaker 1: an elderly person that doesn't want to stand in the

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Speaker 1: whole time, you get somebody to hold their place, that

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Speaker 1: sort of thing. Sure. Yeah, this raises a question of, um,

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Speaker 1: what do you consider, like what counts as strict adherents

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Speaker 1: to queuing culture. Does it count as strict adherence to

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Speaker 1: queuing culture if you're just doing it in the abstract

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Speaker 1: meaning there's strong enforcement of an organized first and first

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Speaker 1: out principle, or does it also entail physical ordering of

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Speaker 1: your of your body in terms of the first and

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Speaker 1: first out principle? You know what I mean? Yeah? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: For example, another type of very ation on this one

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Speaker 1: that sounds like it adheres to the first in, first

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Speaker 1: outqueuing principle in the abstract of like how the waiting

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Speaker 1: system functions but doesn't take the form of a single

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Speaker 1: file line. Uh. This example is that. Uh. And I

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Speaker 1: was reading about this in an article for the BBC

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Speaker 1: by David Robson about how in Spain and in some

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Speaker 1: Spanish speaking countries, a common alternative to physically standing in

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Speaker 1: line is the kines ultimo principle, so that that you

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Speaker 1: would go into say a cafe, where various people are

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Speaker 1: waiting for service, and instead of standing in line, you

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Speaker 1: ask kins ultimo, who is last, and then that person indicates, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm the last person in line, and so you know

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Speaker 1: that that person is now the person who you go after,

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Speaker 1: and they know the person ahead of them, and the

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Speaker 1: person ahead of them knows the person ahead of them,

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Speaker 1: and so everybody will still go in order, being just

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Speaker 1: kind of hang out and wait for the person you

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Speaker 1: know who is ahead of you to get their service

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Speaker 1: and then you're next. So interesting to me and that

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Speaker 1: it's still functionally a single file, first in, first out queue,

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Speaker 1: but without the physical line, kind of like what you

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Speaker 1: were describing people might do in Nigeria. Yeah, I will

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Speaker 1: say from my own experience, I find it particularly confusing

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Speaker 1: when you have two different queuing systems going on at

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Speaker 1: the same time. I don't know if you've ever had

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Speaker 1: this experience, Like if you you show up somewhere and

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00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,760
Speaker 1: there is some sort of there they're they're doing both

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Speaker 1: pre arranged appointments and walk in at the same time.

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Speaker 1: Because then it creates confusion. It's like, well, who is next?

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Speaker 1: Is that the person who is scheduled for this time

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Speaker 1: or the person who is ahead of me in the

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Speaker 1: physical line? You know, it creates this ambiguity, uh that

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Speaker 1: it does not seem good for the whole waiting experience. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's funny that you bring up ambiguity, because I wanted

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Speaker 1: to get into the concept of the dangers of ambiguity

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Speaker 1: with reference to cutting in line. So are you ready

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00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,520
Speaker 1: to talk about cutting in line? Rob Let's talk about cutting?

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Speaker 1: So I started off by thinking about the question, Okay,

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Speaker 1: what do you actually do if somebody cuts in front

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Speaker 1: of you in line? And in thinking about this, I

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00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:15,320
Speaker 1: was struck by how rarely that has actually happened in

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Speaker 1: my life, Like, it is such a rare occurrence that

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00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:22,000
Speaker 1: I struggle to think of specific examples that that come

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Speaker 1: to mind. I guess when it has happened, it hasn't

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00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:28,919
Speaker 1: registered as something immensely important to me, um but it.

399
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:33,200
Speaker 1: But it's also just so rare uh. And I think

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Speaker 1: in my experience what it is is that it's very

401
00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,800
Speaker 1: rare for someone to blatantly cut in front of me

402
00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,159
Speaker 1: in a situation where the rules of the line are clear.

403
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:47,600
Speaker 1: I think the issue with perceived line cutting arises much

404
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,879
Speaker 1: more often in situations where there's some kind of ambiguity

405
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:56,240
Speaker 1: in the system of ordering access. And here's my example. Okay,

406
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,520
Speaker 1: you're at a restaurant and there's a long wait and

407
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,199
Speaker 1: so be uh. You and the person you're there with

408
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:03,920
Speaker 1: you decide you want to try to get a seat

409
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,399
Speaker 1: at the bar because the bar is first come, first serve.

410
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,399
Speaker 1: And you see there's another couple that's sitting at the

411
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:11,199
Speaker 1: bar and they're about to get up and leave, so

412
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 1: you position yourself to grab their seats when when they

413
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 1: get up and you're standing there waiting and waiting and waiting,

414
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,080
Speaker 1: and then finally they get up, but then somebody jumps

415
00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 1: in right in front of you and grabs the chairs.

416
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,439
Speaker 1: What do you do? Like this is difficult because the

417
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 1: rules are ambiguous, Like you could go and try to

418
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,639
Speaker 1: protest and say, hey, actually we were already waiting on

419
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 1: those seats and you just got here, but that person

420
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 1: could say, well, I didn't see you, and I got

421
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 1: the seats first and their first come, first serve, and

422
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 1: and in a situation like this, there's no clear way

423
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,240
Speaker 1: of resolving it, like you can't appeal to a rule book.

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Speaker 1: So usually what it just means is the seats go

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Speaker 1: to whoever is more selfish, unreasonable and willing to make

426
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,640
Speaker 1: a scene. Yeah, this is true, and but I totally

427
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,160
Speaker 1: agree with you. Like the moments where I have seen

428
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:02,680
Speaker 1: something like line kind occurring, they tend to be situations

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00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 1: where there is this ambiguity, like it line formation, Like

430
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,880
Speaker 1: to say, a bunch of people showing up to say, well,

431
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,119
Speaker 1: I think an example that that I think that I

432
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,439
Speaker 1: can easily draw on was going to a mass vaccination site,

433
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:19,439
Speaker 1: um where you had a really well maintained line system

434
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 1: and queuing system. But what do you do when you

435
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,719
Speaker 1: haven't arrived at the queue yet? And uh, and what

436
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 1: do you see when you you see other people going

437
00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 1: towards that spot? You know, I like, I know that

438
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,720
Speaker 1: I'm walking at a you know, click faster than a

439
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 1: lot of people. I'm just gonna get there first. You know.

440
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that I'm cutting in front of them likewise,

441
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 1: but I could see where people might think that it's like, oh, well,

442
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 1: he's really making a bee line to get in line there.

443
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 1: But we're talking about just starts with the crowd assembling

444
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:48,880
Speaker 1: and in forming the line right when it's not clear

445
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 1: what the boundaries of the line are yet, Like is

446
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,479
Speaker 1: this the line now or does it only count as

447
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,640
Speaker 1: the line once we get over there? Right? Another case

448
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,880
Speaker 1: would be really long lines that they kind of break

449
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 1: down at places, like maybe there's a period in the

450
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 1: line where things move really fastly, really really swiftly, and

451
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 1: not everybody's moving at the same speed. I've seen that

452
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,680
Speaker 1: create a situation well where some people just walk faster

453
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 1: and they're going to be ahead. But is it cutting?

454
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:14,359
Speaker 1: Is it not it gets up kind of being this

455
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 1: gray area, or it can be depending on how the

456
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 1: queue is maintained. I think another big example of this

457
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,359
Speaker 1: kind of ambiguous space with with access to things comes

458
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:28,920
Speaker 1: with like parking spaces. Uh, you know somebody, somebody cuts

459
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 1: in front of you to get a parking space that

460
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,200
Speaker 1: you're waiting to turn into, but you know you were

461
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 1: blocked because the person was backing out of it or something,

462
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 1: and and in those cases people can get really mad.

463
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 1: But I guess you do have to admit, well, there's

464
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,080
Speaker 1: just like there's not an established rule book here, and

465
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,840
Speaker 1: especially if like a person didn't see you waiting, I

466
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:50,479
Speaker 1: don't know what can you do? Well, here's one okay,

467
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 1: when someone is holding a place in line for someone else,

468
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,239
Speaker 1: I find I sometimes like to to to think, like, well,

469
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,920
Speaker 1: what is the cut off line for not offending somebody?

470
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:04,240
Speaker 1: Because I would offer be the case where like I'll

471
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 1: hold a place in line while my wife and my

472
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 1: son go and do something else, you know, because a

473
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 1: little kid's not gonna want to stand in line, so

474
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 1: maybe they'll go look at a fountain or something, and

475
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,120
Speaker 1: then they come back. And so people might think, oh,

476
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 1: I just thought I had one person ahead of me.

477
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 1: I thought one order of ice cream was ahead of

478
00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 1: even know, but it's three orders. So at what point

479
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 1: does it become just too much like you have, say

480
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: three family members come back, four, five, seven? Or is it?

481
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:31,439
Speaker 1: Or if it? What if it's clear that it's not

482
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: family members but just friends, then does it become potentially irritating?

483
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: Or what if it what if it appears to be

484
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 1: people who who know each other but we did not

485
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: arrive there together. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Um So, I

486
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: think it's it's obvious that a lot of conflict about

487
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 1: line cutting arises in situations where there's a lack of

488
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:55,160
Speaker 1: clarity about the norms for organizing access or when there's

489
00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,120
Speaker 1: a lack of clarity about how to handle exceptions. Um So,

490
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 1: I mean this lee to me to believe that if

491
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,880
Speaker 1: I don't know, if you're designing some kind of system

492
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,720
Speaker 1: and you want people to have the most satisfaction with

493
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: their line waiting process, I would say tend tend towards

494
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 1: really clear rules for how the line works. Is people

495
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 1: really do get get mad in these ambiguous situations when

496
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 1: they don't go their way. But anyway, coming back to

497
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 1: the idea of cutting, Okay, So all of these ambiguities aside.

498
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 1: What if somebody just actually cut right in front of

499
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 1: you in a normally organized line, just clear and blatantly,

500
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,400
Speaker 1: they just get in front of you. What would you do.

501
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: I'm interested in your answer, But maybe first we should

502
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: look at a look at a study about this and

503
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 1: then come back to it. So the famous American psychologist

504
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 1: Stanley Milgram, you know, he's best known for his controversial

505
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 1: experiments in the nineteen sixties on the suspension of personal

506
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 1: morality and obedience to authority. You know, his uh, his

507
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 1: famous experiments where he would have experiment ers uh pretend

508
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 1: to be receiving electric shocks from the test subject in

509
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 1: response to like failed answers on a on a quiz

510
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 1: or something, uh, and have an authoritative guy there in

511
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: a lab code telling them to keep doing it even

512
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,239
Speaker 1: though the person complained that they were in pain and

513
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: all that. Um. And so that that's his most famous

514
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,120
Speaker 1: work and most controversial. There are a lot of questions

515
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 1: about what kind of conclusions people should actually draw from

516
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: those studies and the ethics of them and so forth.

517
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: But later in his career, in the nineteen eighties, Milgram

518
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 1: actually carried out experiments to test people's reactions to line

519
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: cutting scenarios, which seems somehow suitably perverse, sort of like

520
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: in line with the previous experiments, right. Uh So these

521
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: were published in UH in an article called Response to

522
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,159
Speaker 1: Intrusion into Waiting Lines in the Journal of Personality and

523
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 1: Social Psychology in nineteen eighty six, and it was by Milgram,

524
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,959
Speaker 1: Hillary J. Liberty, Raymond Toledo, and Joyce Wackenhut and uh.

525
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,199
Speaker 1: In this article, they quote explored the relationship between the

526
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 1: spatial can figuration of the queue, which is viewed as

527
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 1: a social system susceptible to experimental analysis, and the means

528
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 1: by which its integrity is defended. Confederates intruded themselves into

529
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: a hundred and twenty nine naturally occurring waiting lines, and

530
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: the defensive reactions of the queers were noted. Wait, so

531
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,920
Speaker 1: he just he just sent people out to mess with

532
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: folks waiting in line to cut in line. Yeah, he said, Well,

533
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 1: there were multiple So sometimes there would be multiple confederates,

534
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 1: there were different experimental set up. Sometimes some of the

535
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 1: experimenters were actually in the line, sometimes they weren't. Sometimes

536
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,120
Speaker 1: they just have one cut in a line. I'll describe

537
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: a few of the specifics here, but the general idea

538
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: here is that Milgram sent out the experimenters into various

539
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 1: natural queuing areas in New York, for example, lines in

540
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 1: train stations, and I think also in betting parlors, which

541
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 1: sounds especially um And then they would just have them

542
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: cut right into the line. They would cut in after

543
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: the third person in line and before the fourth without

544
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: giving an excuse. I think sometimes they would just say, quote,

545
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 1: excuse me, I would like to get in here. And

546
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 1: people did not like this at all. They recorded all

547
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 1: kinds of reactions. There were hostile glares, shouting telling people

548
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: to get to the back. About ten percent of the time,

549
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: other people in line physically reacted like pulling or shoving

550
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 1: the violator out of the line. Uh, it's about one

551
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 1: in ten cases. Uh. And yet also a substantial number

552
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 1: of the line cutters got away with it. I don't

553
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: know what the number on that was overall, but it

554
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: was like it wasn't a tiny minority like it may

555
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: have even been in a majority of cases the person

556
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: cut in and just got to stay there. Well. Yeah,

557
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 1: I mean, it seems like there's so many things to

558
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: take into account if this were to happen. I mean,

559
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 1: on one level, I have to think about with what

560
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: confidence they're doing it right. And you know, since you

561
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 1: have a system in place, then if someone is treating

562
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: themselves like an exception, I feel like for my part

563
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: of one of the things I might consider is, well,

564
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: maybe they're supposed to cut in line, you know, like

565
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,239
Speaker 1: maybe they have a reason, maybe they work here and

566
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 1: they need to just check with the teller real quick.

567
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 1: Or perhaps they're and a thought like maybe they're undercover

568
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: cop or something, and they're just like, you know, this

569
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 1: is maybe not related to the rest of the clientele.

570
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 1: This is really important. I want to come back to

571
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 1: that in just a minute, because I think you're onto something.

572
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: But then the other thing, and this is you know,

573
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: brought up you brought up the physical um interaction, the

574
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: idea of someone grabbing them and pulling them back like

575
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 1: that's that feels like a huge step to take because

576
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 1: you're you're laying hands on somebody, You're you're bringing its

577
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: escalating to a level that could have dire consequences for

578
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 1: for numerous people in the scenario. And so you know,

579
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: if even if I realize that the person who just

580
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 1: intentionally cut in line in front of me, you know,

581
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 1: has no rightful excuse to do it. I would have

582
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 1: to think, well, do I want to get involved with

583
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 1: this any further, Like, it sucks that they cut in

584
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 1: front of me, but it would suck more if I

585
00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: got into an argument or even a physical confrontation with them. Yeah,

586
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 1: I mean, it's funny how the norms go both ways.

587
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I would say, do not ever just cut

588
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 1: in line. That is unbelievably rude. But if somebody cuts

589
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: in line in front of you, you do not need

590
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: to escalate this to the level of violence. You know,

591
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: you don't put your hands on them. You also don't

592
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: need to call the cops. I mean you might if

593
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 1: it's a really important situation, you might try to get

594
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 1: the stores manager or whatever it is. But this is

595
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: not a situation that merits escalation to a physical altercation. Plus,

596
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: I'm not the kind of person who just breaks into

597
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: conversation with strangers anyway. And if I do, I need

598
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: a pretty good idea that this is going to be pleasant, Like, oh,

599
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: they're wearing a T shirt with a band I like

600
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 1: or a movie I like on it. This is a

601
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: good sign that we have. We can have a pleasant

602
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 1: interaction for a few seconds. But if if the whole

603
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 1: relationship has been has started with them cutting in line

604
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: in front of me and seeming to do so intentionally,

605
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 1: then this, this relationship is going nowhere. Oh. I mean,

606
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: that's another thing is you might assume that like if

607
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,239
Speaker 1: someone were too cut in front of you accidentally and

608
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 1: you think, oh, this person might be totally reasonable if

609
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: you just let them know, hey, actually the line starts

610
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 1: back there. That would be a different thing than somebody

611
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: blatantly just jumping in in front of the fourth person

612
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 1: in line and saying I need to get in here.

613
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 1: At that point, I think, okay, this person there's something

614
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: wrong with them. This person is very unreasonable, and you

615
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 1: probably just don't want to get into it with them.

616
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 1: But on the other hand, if they seem to have

617
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 1: done it accidentally, they are a couple of ways that

618
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: could play too, because it might be well, maybe this

619
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: person is I don't know, less aware of their surroundings.

620
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 1: There could be some underlying circumstance, or they're just having

621
00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 1: an extremely distracting day, uh you know who knows. And

622
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 1: then and then also I mean, maybe maybe they need

623
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: this win maybe they I don't want to be the

624
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: person to to break it to them that actually the

625
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: line starts back there, because now we're having a negative interaction, right,

626
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 1: And I think a lot of people in the scenario

627
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: actually behaved just like we're talking about. Like, like I said,

628
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 1: a lot of people gave sort of hostile looks, but

629
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 1: ultimately didn't do anything, like didn't try to shout at

630
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 1: the person or remove them from the line physically. Part

631
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: of it also may come down to the bystander effect.

632
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 1: I'm guessing where there are multiple people behind you, somebody

633
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: needs to to boo this man for cutting, But I'm

634
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:15,959
Speaker 1: not going to be the one to boo him. Surely

635
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 1: one of these people behind me will be the booer.

636
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: So one of the findings of this experiment was that people,

637
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 1: due to some extent, look to other people in line

638
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: for queues as to whether and how the rules of

639
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: the line should be enforced. That was discovered by they

640
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 1: found that if they put experiment ers in the line,

641
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: So now the actors in this experiment or not just

642
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 1: the line cutter, but also some other people who have

643
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: just been following the rules and waiting in line ahead

644
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 1: of time. Uh, and they have, those people do nothing

645
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 1: in response to an intrusion in the line. Other line

646
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: standards are more likely to just let the cutter skate

647
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 1: by and do nothing. Also that so that they were

648
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: showing to some extent, if there are other people around

649
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: and they don't react, you're less likely to react. I

650
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 1: don't know if that necessarily counts as exactly the bystander effect.

651
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 1: I mean, there's clearly I think there's some overlap with

652
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: the bystander effect, but that people don't always know intuitively

653
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 1: or don't trust their own instincts about how norms should

654
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 1: be enforced. And so when you see somebody do something

655
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 1: that looks like a violation of norms, probably the first

656
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 1: thing you do is look around and see how other

657
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 1: people are reacting, Like are they starting to yell at

658
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,759
Speaker 1: this guy? And if they do, then you might join in,

659
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 1: But if not, you might just assume like, well, I

660
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: don't know, I mean, I don't know what's going on. Well,

661
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: we're talking about like public outreach and public campaigns, So

662
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 1: you can imagine one that is, you know, like mine

663
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 1: the gap, you know, wait in line and honor the

664
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 1: cue or whatever it happens to be. But unless you

665
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,319
Speaker 1: have a specific bit of propaganda that's saying like if

666
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 1: you see somebody cutting in line, boo that man ruin

667
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 1: in a chorus of booze, and you know, and unless

668
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:01,239
Speaker 1: there's some sort of messaging like that, you just don't

669
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: know how to respond, right, So clearly, clearly we have

670
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,760
Speaker 1: a strong inclination to take our cues from other people

671
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: in a in an informal uh system of social norms,

672
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,439
Speaker 1: like a self organized line. But then there's some other

673
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 1: things they found too in the Milgram experiment. Perhaps no

674
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 1: surprise here, but people behind the point of intrusion were

675
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: much more likely to put up some kind of resistance

676
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,280
Speaker 1: than people ahead of the point of intrusion. So clearly

677
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 1: there is some element of self interest at work. The

678
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,319
Speaker 1: people ahead of the intrusion were more likely to you know,

679
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:37,720
Speaker 1: just feeling maybe that's maybe none of my business. Also,

680
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,280
Speaker 1: perhaps not surprising, resistance was greater when there were two

681
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 1: line cutters than when there was one. So if two

682
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 1: people are kitten in there after the third person, you're

683
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 1: really more likely to get people yelling at you. Yeah,

684
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 1: because you know what you're talking about two people that

685
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 1: are together or two people just independently. Actually, I don't

686
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,839
Speaker 1: know what all the permutations they did on on that

687
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 1: part where I mean, I think what it was was

688
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 1: the two were entering the line at the same time. Okay,

689
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: I mean I could see it would I could see

690
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,919
Speaker 1: where I would escalate things either way because either these

691
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 1: two people were cutting in front of front of me

692
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 1: and they're together and they're like working together to corrupt

693
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:15,800
Speaker 1: the line system, or if it's just two random people,

694
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 1: it's like, what are we doing here? We suddenly there's

695
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 1: just there's just people showing up and just jumping in line,

696
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 1: cats and dogs, you know. Yeah, um, I want to

697
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 1: read another thing from their findings, Milgram at all right.

698
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,280
Speaker 1: Quote results suggested that the underlying structure of the queue

699
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 1: is composed of replicated segments, and the defense of the

700
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 1: queue is local rather than systemic. And I like that

701
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 1: because they essentially found that, you know, sort of parts

702
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: of the line each have their own local militia to

703
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: defend that part of the line. You may be less

704
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 1: concerned about violations to the order of the line that

705
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 1: happened farther away from where you are in it. Like,

706
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 1: if you're the back of the line and it's a

707
00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: fairly long line, you really don't have much for room

708
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: complain about people cutting at the very front. Perhaps no, maybe,

709
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 1: Now there's a follow up in nine by Schmidt at All.

710
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 1: It was a paper called Intrusions into Waiting Lines? Does

711
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: the Q constitute a social system? This was also in

712
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 1: the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology ninety two by

713
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:22,760
Speaker 1: Burned H. Schmidt, Laurette Dubai, and uh France la Clerk,

714
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,400
Speaker 1: and they tested quote whether a waiting line should be

715
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,280
Speaker 1: viewed as a social system with norms, roles, and obligations

716
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,239
Speaker 1: for cures, or whether behavior in a queue can be

717
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 1: explained solely by individuals personal interest and cost versus benefit calculations.

718
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 1: So does that question make sense? Is a line just

719
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 1: a bunch of people who are each trying to get

720
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 1: as little waiting time for themselves as possible, or is

721
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: it more like a society that has some like understood

722
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 1: rules that people will try to enforce. However, however it

723
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: affects their own personal waiting time. Yeah, that that that

724
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 1: makes sense. And what the authors here found is they said, Yeah,

725
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 1: it really looks like like lines are more like social

726
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 1: systems with norms and rules, more like a sort of

727
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 1: mini society than just a you know, a pure like

728
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 1: efficiency maximizing game where people are trying to get out

729
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,320
Speaker 1: on their own as fast as possible. And one example

730
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 1: they gave of this is that people in line will

731
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 1: will quite significantly make a distinction between a quote legitimate

732
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 1: intrusion into the order of the line and an illegitimate one,

733
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 1: even if the weight is the same length. So if

734
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 1: you have somebody coming in who gives some explanation, that's like,

735
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:39,800
Speaker 1: you know, they're a service provider and they have to

736
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:41,400
Speaker 1: get in in front of you in line to do

737
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 1: something here in the line. People understand these exceptions and

738
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 1: incorporate them just fine, even if it means waiting an

739
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 1: additional amount, uh the same amount that they would wait

740
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: if somebody made some kind of illegitimate intrusion into the

741
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 1: order of the line. So people are like understanding reasons

742
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,359
Speaker 1: for things, and they're acting out norms based on those

743
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: reasons rather than just trying to get out as fast

744
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: as they can no matter what. How is this not

745
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 1: like a nineteen eighties Stephen King short story, because I

746
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 1: can think of multiple works that he did, where be

747
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 1: it like The Mist or The Dome where you have

748
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,279
Speaker 1: a system where people are put into a certain situation,

749
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 1: and then like a social order, he emerges out of

750
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 1: the that predicament. I could see an entire at least

751
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,840
Speaker 1: a short story, really bad one though usually it's a

752
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,720
Speaker 1: bad one. But but yeah, just waiting in line, especially

753
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 1: if you there's some mystery as to what you're waiting

754
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 1: in line for. And that's that's perfect stuff for for

755
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,919
Speaker 1: some sort of especially in nineteen eighties theres Kings short

756
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,399
Speaker 1: story You can't have a healthy line without a Mrs

757
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 1: Carmody inciting the line against cure number four. Um, okay,

758
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 1: but oh another thing that I thought was interesting, So

759
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 1: as to the rules that people play within a line.

760
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,840
Speaker 1: You might think, okay, a line is homogeneous. Everybody in

761
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 1: the line is basically waiting, you know, they're all doing

762
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,279
Speaker 1: the same thing, but they're actually In this study, they

763
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 1: found there seems to be an implicit special role for

764
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 1: the person directly following the intruder in dictating the overall

765
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: response of people in line. Quote, the cure right behind

766
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 1: the intrusion point has a special obligation to respond to

767
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 1: the intrusion. Is this ring true to you? Yeah, I

768
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 1: mean I guess. So it kind of comes down to

769
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 1: the individual versus the group, Like if the individual is

770
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 1: not offended, then it's then perhaps the group has less

771
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,839
Speaker 1: room to be offended. Maybe, I mean I would think

772
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:38,800
Speaker 1: that Again, it probably comes down to people looking for cues.

773
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:41,359
Speaker 1: People don't know how to react to something, and they're

774
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 1: looking for cueues to get from other people. And it

775
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 1: seems like the most natural place they would look for

776
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: that queue is what is the person right behind the

777
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 1: intrusion doing, and that that person would have a lot

778
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,720
Speaker 1: of influence socially over your idea of what the correct

779
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,040
Speaker 1: kind of response is. Yeah, I mean also depending in

780
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 1: the queuing culture, perhaps that person who just joined the line,

781
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 1: maybe maybe they were taking a bathroom break or something,

782
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 1: or maybe you know, they were they were holding a

783
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 1: spot for them, or maybe there were shoes on the

784
00:41:10,880 --> 00:41:13,280
Speaker 1: ground and I just didn't notice it, you know anything.

785
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 1: These things could be Uh, it could be part of

786
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 1: the equation. Yeah, I think that makes sense too, because

787
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 1: you might assume that the person right there in the

788
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 1: line has some kind of information that you don't. Yeah, well,

789
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,759
Speaker 1: maybe they're together. Maybe maybe maybe it's two people that

790
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: are going to see the movie together and one just

791
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:31,960
Speaker 1: had to go buy some popcorn. Or something. How offended

792
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 1: can I be that now they're there are two people

793
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 1: where there was one before. But this does bring me

794
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 1: back to the question of what counts as a legitimate

795
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: excuse in cutting in line? Right, Like, if so you're

796
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,280
Speaker 1: waiting in line of the grocery store or you know whatever,

797
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: a service point. You know, you're trying to check out

798
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 1: at a store, and somebody comes up to you and says, hey,

799
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: can I get in front of you in line? Because

800
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 1: and you know, they say something, what kinds of excuse

801
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,799
Speaker 1: is are legitimate to you? And would make you say

802
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 1: like yeah, okay, And what are the other mitigating circumstances

803
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 1: that would affect that well? I I think of lines

804
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 1: that have formed to use a toilet as being a

805
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 1: great example of this, because there there's a biological um

806
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,320
Speaker 1: factor here that cannot be ignored, and you're going to

807
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 1: have room for age also to play into it. So

808
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 1: if it's like a young child that's doing the PP dance,

809
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 1: you know you're gonna nobody wants to be responsible for

810
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,479
Speaker 1: a child paying their pants, So you would say, yes,

811
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: please go go ahead of me, take both of you,

812
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 1: take this child ahead of me, and go use the facilities,

813
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:41,839
Speaker 1: or if somebody were to explain it to themselves to

814
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 1: to to you and be like, hey, I am about

815
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 1: to just have a terrible incident occur. Uh, you can

816
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 1: spare us both this if you just let me in

817
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,319
Speaker 1: front of you, then you would be like, yes, by

818
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 1: all means, I am not having an emergency. If you're

819
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:58,919
Speaker 1: having an emergency, you should definitely go ahead of me. Yes.

820
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 1: That's interesting because I was just thinking about how my

821
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 1: reaction to somebody asking to get in front of me

822
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 1: on line in line might actually have more to do

823
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 1: with what's going on with me than what's going on

824
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 1: with them. Like I, I would tend to think I

825
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 1: would be happy to let people in front of me

826
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:19,760
Speaker 1: for something basically, no matter what their excuses in most cases,

827
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 1: if I'm not in some kind of dire situation myself.

828
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: But if I'm in some kind of dire situation where

829
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 1: like I've got to get out of here right now,

830
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 1: you know, I've got to get this done, and that

831
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 1: that would be the thing that would make me reject them,

832
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 1: not the question of what their actual excuses, because in

833
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 1: most cases, if I'm checking out at a store or something,

834
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 1: it's like, well, if fine, I don't care. Yeah. The

835
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 1: more I think about it, though, I think that something

836
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 1: like explosive diarrhea is always an excuse to get to

837
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 1: the front of the line. I'm having trouble coming up

838
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 1: with a single case where someone would say, excuse me,

839
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 1: can I cut in front of you? I'm about to

840
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,919
Speaker 1: have explosive diarrhea a case where I would say, no,

841
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,360
Speaker 1: absolutely not. But if it's like a mine for the

842
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 1: hot dog stand, well then they need to they need

843
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 1: to pick up lunch. But then they need to go

844
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:06,359
Speaker 1: somewhere else. Yeah, okay, But I don't know. I guess

845
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 1: in some cases I might be like, look, i'll talk

846
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 1: to the line, Um, you go use the bathroom. We

847
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 1: will find a space for you. Um when you get back.

848
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I guess that's a situation

849
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 1: where the social order of the line has to provide

850
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 1: thank thank you, thank you. So concerning the idea of

851
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:31,359
Speaker 1: a legitimate excuse for line cutting, I wanted to refer

852
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 1: to a classic study in the social psychology of queuing.

853
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:38,839
Speaker 1: This widely cited and pretty interesting. Uh this one this

854
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 1: time is from the Harvard psychologist Ellen Langer. It was

855
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 1: actually by Langer, Blank and Channawitz, published in nineteen eight

856
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 1: called the Mindlessness of ostensibly thoughtful action the Role of

857
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,839
Speaker 1: placebic information and Interpersonal Interaction. Again, this was in the

858
00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 1: Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. And I found a

859
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:04,280
Speaker 1: good summary of of this whole study in another paper

860
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 1: by A. Kleinberg at All in two thousand eighteen, and

861
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 1: so this is the Kleinberg at All summary of the

862
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 1: study here. Langer at All in nineteen seventy eight asked

863
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 1: subjects in their study to make some copies. Just as

864
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 1: they were about to do so, a confederate asked to

865
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 1: jump in front of them. In some cases, the confederate

866
00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 1: gave no reason at all, quote excuse me, I have

867
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:29,240
Speaker 1: five pages? May I use the xerox machine? In others,

868
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 1: a reason was given, quote excuse me, I have five pages.

869
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 1: May I use the xerox machine because I'm in a rush.

870
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 1: The third condition had the veneer of a reason, but

871
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 1: it actually had no informational content. Quote excuse me, I

872
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:47,959
Speaker 1: have five pages. May I use the xerox machine because

873
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:52,440
Speaker 1: I have to make copies. People complied at similar rates

874
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 1: to both the actual reason and the pseudo reason percent

875
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: and ninety three percent, respectively. For six with no reason.

876
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 1: What explains this finding? People see a situation they have

877
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 1: seen before and their automatic response kicks in to avoid

878
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,840
Speaker 1: the effort of processing the rest of this setting. Consistent

879
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:16,439
Speaker 1: with this view, when the costs of complying go up

880
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:20,280
Speaker 1: when the Confederate wants to copy twenty pages, not just five,

881
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 1: compliance to the pseudo reason is similar to what it

882
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 1: is in the no reason condition. Um So, I thought

883
00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 1: this was really funny when I first read it, that

884
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 1: that people are just as likely. I mean, it's equal

885
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 1: numbers to let you cut in front of them as

886
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 1: long as you say because something, even if the because

887
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,720
Speaker 1: statement is utterly inane, I may I use the xerox

888
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 1: machine because I have to make copies, right, unless you

889
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 1: have a stronger because yeah, then we know, what's the point,

890
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:51,840
Speaker 1: You're just gonna be like, oh okay, yeah, you have

891
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:54,400
Speaker 1: an exception you should go first. So I guess this

892
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 1: is this one is actually a little bit less about

893
00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:00,439
Speaker 1: queuing and more about how we uh whether and how

894
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 1: we incorporate information in making decisions at the spur of

895
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 1: the moment. But I like how when you think about this,

896
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 1: this could I think be applied to other scenarios. Where

897
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 1: where people have some excuse they want to get ahead,

898
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:16,240
Speaker 1: and as long as they appear to have an excuse,

899
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,279
Speaker 1: even if it's not really an excuse at all, you'd

900
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 1: just be like, yeah, okay, what I don't care, Yeah,

901
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,959
Speaker 1: I think something. I was thinking about this. Thinking about

902
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 1: it in relation to traffic, It's kind of like if

903
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 1: you're in the fast lane and you were going let's

904
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 1: say you're already going five to ten miles over the

905
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:37,360
Speaker 1: speed limit anyway, Okay, you're pretty going, going pretty fast,

906
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 1: you qualify as fast, but then somebody comes up behind

907
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 1: you and they're going really fast. Now, sometimes this will

908
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 1: um inflate the ego a bit, and you may think

909
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 1: I am already going fast enough. I will not get

910
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,120
Speaker 1: into the slow lane because then I will be stuck

911
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 1: behind the tractor trailer rig for the next mile or two. No,

912
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:58,759
Speaker 1: I am staying here. And you may ride behind me

913
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 1: and um and ride you know, dangerously close to my

914
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 1: bumper and uh occasionally flash your lights, but I will

915
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,120
Speaker 1: not move. Uh. That's one way to go about it.

916
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:11,680
Speaker 1: But then for my part, and sometimes my mind entertains

917
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:14,799
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. But other times I'll read more

918
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: reasonably think this person is driving maybe a little dangerously,

919
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 1: and I would rather that person be in front of

920
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:24,960
Speaker 1: me than behind me, and I should just let them go,

921
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 1: even if it is going to inconvenience me a little bit.

922
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,319
Speaker 1: When I'm stuck behind a tractor trailer rig and I

923
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:32,839
Speaker 1: kind of feel like that would be the case with

924
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 1: somebody who really wanted to get in front of me

925
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 1: at say the Xerox machine. Do I really want that

926
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 1: person behind me looking over my shoulder, like waiting on me,

927
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 1: like that's gonna especially if I don't really know how

928
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 1: to use the machine and go. I want to I

929
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 1: want to have a calmer experience with a Xerox machine. Right.

930
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 1: The awkwardness of having this person looking over your shoulder

931
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 1: and and trying to get out behind you maybe like

932
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 1: factored in at a higher cost in your brain than

933
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,359
Speaker 1: the time cost of just letting them go. Yeah, and

934
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 1: it's just five copies, So what's the harm? Right now?

935
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 1: All of this this is partially because I just watched this,

936
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 1: and I think you just watched this as well, But

937
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 1: the the the excellent sketch comedy series. You should leave

938
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 1: with Tim Robinson. I think you should leave. I think

939
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:18,360
Speaker 1: you should leave. Yes, I think you should leave with

940
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 1: Tim Robinson. Um. So many of those sketches are situations

941
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 1: where there's some sort of like a weird, awkward social

942
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 1: interaction and one side or the other is vastly overreacting

943
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 1: to what's occurring. And I feel like you could you

944
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 1: could basically adapt this Xerox machine sketch uh without even

945
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:40,760
Speaker 1: altering it much into a very entertaining Tim Robinson sketch

946
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:47,400
Speaker 1: because I have to make copies. Yeah, I didn't think

947
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 1: about this, but so many of the Tim Robinson sketches

948
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 1: are about situations where there's some kind of ambiguity in

949
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:58,319
Speaker 1: the rules and someone exploits that ambiguity to a ludicrous

950
00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 1: degree and then has a monstress overreaction to people's reaction

951
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:08,319
Speaker 1: to their exploitation. Uh, Like the nachos scene from the

952
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:11,080
Speaker 1: first season where she has did you come over here?

953
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 1: And and to tell him to ask me not to

954
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:20,439
Speaker 1: eat the fully loaded nachos and he's just saying as yeah.

955
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:23,560
Speaker 1: Or there's a there's a second season sketch where the

956
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 1: professor that the three four students are having dinner with uh,

957
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 1: he wants to eat what the other person ordered. So

958
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 1: you know, there's this whole this pushing of the boundaries,

959
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 1: like it's joking. Yeah, I'm just joking. And then ultimately

960
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 1: can I have a bite of that? And he has

961
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:39,239
Speaker 1: a bite it, and then he's like, I'm gonna keep

962
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:43,239
Speaker 1: I'm gonna eat. I'm just joking. Though he eats it,

963
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:47,319
Speaker 1: but he was just joking. Oh that's good stuff. Now,

964
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:51,760
Speaker 1: I will advise you know, the Tim Robinson Um comedy series,

965
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:54,000
Speaker 1: I think you should leave. It is not for for everyone,

966
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 1: it is not for all ages, and it is sketch

967
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:01,520
Speaker 1: comedy in general, I guess is you can be wildly uneven. Uh,

968
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 1: and I definitely find that show to be wildly uneven. Um.

969
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:09,759
Speaker 1: It's like some sketches are are ingenious in their stupidity,

970
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:12,279
Speaker 1: and some I just I feel like I just to

971
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 1: just totally blow past me and I don't understand what

972
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 1: the point was. Um, But you know, again, that's part

973
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 1: of sketch. I think in the first season some sketches

974
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 1: that just totally blew past me the first time really

975
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 1: grew on me in subsequent viewings. That's yeah, I think

976
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 1: it's kind of a masterpiece of well. Yeah, sometimes like

977
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:34,919
Speaker 1: the non like something that's really nonsensical if it's repeated enough,

978
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:38,399
Speaker 1: it takes on an order and since uh and so

979
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:41,319
Speaker 1: there are certainly examples of that in the show where yeah,

980
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:44,879
Speaker 1: you tell one bad joke or or one weird but

981
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 1: maybe not particularly funny joke, Well, okay, then nobody laughs.

982
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:50,319
Speaker 1: But if you keep doing it, if you just keep

983
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:53,239
Speaker 1: doing it, and you just ramp up the intensity, then

984
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 1: you can get somewhere and uh and it can work brilliantly.

985
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 1: It's definitely one of the greatest original to Netflix things

986
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 1: up there. The Dark Crystal. For me, I'm sad we're

987
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 1: never going to get more of but glad we got

988
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,600
Speaker 1: there and there might be more of it. Um. Oh really,

989
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 1: I thought that they had said that there was going

990
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:10,359
Speaker 1: to be no more. Well, there's not gonna be any

991
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 1: more of it on Netflix, but I think that the

992
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:17,200
Speaker 1: Giminson Company has has has or is looking into ways

993
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 1: to continue the story. So who knows what will that be? Wonderful?

994
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:23,239
Speaker 1: I believe I have not been, but I believe the

995
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 1: Atlanta's own Center for Puptry Arts currently has an exhibit,

996
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 1: an updated Dark Crystal exhibit using pieces from the TV series.

997
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 1: Oh wow, I'm gonna check that out. I'd seen their

998
00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:37,359
Speaker 1: other Dark Crystal exhibit, which was which is great. Yeah, yeah,

999
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 1: this is kind of a part two of that nice

1000
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:41,800
Speaker 1: All right, Well, we've we've we've drifted away from the

1001
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 1: topic at hand here, but we're going to return to

1002
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:48,080
Speaker 1: the line in a third episode. We have more stuff

1003
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:50,799
Speaker 1: to talk about, uh, not only waiting in line, but

1004
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 1: just sort of waiting in general, like how does it,

1005
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:54,960
Speaker 1: how does it affect us? How does it affect our

1006
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:57,960
Speaker 1: moods and our perception of time. We're gonna get into

1007
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:00,839
Speaker 1: that and more in the next step episode of Stuff

1008
00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind. In the meantime, would of course

1009
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:04,839
Speaker 1: love to hear from everyone out there, and we've been

1010
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:07,359
Speaker 1: hearing some great stuff from folks about waiting in line.

1011
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 1: So keep it coming. And if you want to listen

1012
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:13,400
Speaker 1: to our show, you can find core episodes on Tuesdays

1013
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:15,320
Speaker 1: and Thursdays, and the Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast

1014
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:19,799
Speaker 1: feed artifacts usually come out on Wednesday's Listener Mail on

1015
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 1: Monday's Weird House Cineam on Friday, that's our time to

1016
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:25,279
Speaker 1: set aside most of the science and just talk about

1017
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:26,799
Speaker 1: a weird film, and then we have a rerun on

1018
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:29,800
Speaker 1: the weekend. Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio

1019
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,680
Speaker 1: producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get

1020
00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:34,880
Speaker 1: in touch with us with feedback on this episode or

1021
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 1: any other, to suggest a topic for the future, just

1022
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:39,960
Speaker 1: to say hello, you can email us at contact at

1023
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:49,919
Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow

1024
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:52,480
Speaker 1: Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For more

1025
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:55,120
Speaker 1: podcasts for My heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,

1026
00:53:55,280 --> 00:54:00,319
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.

1027
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 1: The point four point four