WEBVTT - Episode 4 - Less Than Perfectly Obedient 0:00:01.600 --> 0:00:04.720 My mom was a world of contradictions. She would pet 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:07.160 your head and tell you how well behaved and talented 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:12.080 you were. She didn't like to be sassed. She couldn't 0:00:12.080 --> 0:00:14.720 stand us screaming in the car or running from her 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:17.639 in the grocery store. The things she hated most was 0:00:17.680 --> 0:00:21.160 causing a scene. She felt like outsiders were judging her 0:00:21.200 --> 0:00:24.800 for having bad children. Looking back, I can see why 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:28.120 she was so nuts. She had five children in eight years. 0:00:29.200 --> 0:00:32.159 Her obstetrician had warned her several times that her body 0:00:32.320 --> 0:00:35.320 wasn't going to withstand much more damage. He was right. 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:39.680 She could never have children again. So you see, we 0:00:39.760 --> 0:00:43.519 almost killed my mom by just being born. Welcome to 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:45.920 The Dougherty Gang, a production of I Heart Radio and 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:52.080 Katie Studios episode four Less than Perfectly Obedient. I'm Courtney Armstrong, 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:55.600 a crime producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Ladecker. We've 0:00:55.640 --> 0:00:58.360 been working with producer Beth Greenwald on The Dockerty Gang 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:01.240 for months now. The three siblings have agreed to tell 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:04.440 their story for the very first time, each from separate prisons. 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:08.760 Lee Grace Dockerty is at Federal Correction Institute Aliceville in Alabama. 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:12.319 Ryan is in the United States Penitentiary Tucson in Arizona, 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:15.880 and Dylan is at the Federal Corrections Institute in Bennettsville 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:19.160 in South Carolina. This call was from the Federal prison. 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:23.160 When you have that amount of a journaline going through you, 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:25.279 you're not sure how to act because it's not something 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:29.000 that's happening every single day. You know, we don't we 0:01:29.080 --> 0:01:33.000 don't have that type of interaction, So everything was happening 0:01:33.080 --> 0:01:36.160 very staff. The Doughertys had zero chance of flying under 0:01:36.200 --> 0:01:38.600 the radar after a high speed chase in which they 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:40.959 shot at a Pascal County sheriff deputy with an AK 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:44.320 forty seven. Here's older brother Dylan. I feel like I'm 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:46.880 having a heart attack for about four hours after that 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:51.320 morning they're troubled. Began in Florida, when officials say twenty 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:54.440 nine year old Lee, one year old Ryan, and twenty 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:57.640 six year old Dylan led police in a high speed chase, 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:01.400 then opened fire, got a way after shooting out the 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:05.560 police car is tired. Sheriff Chris Naco, the sheriff of 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:07.760 Pascal County, shares his thoughts on the start of the 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:11.120 Dougherty Gangs crime spree. It's ironic and law of force. 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:12.720 And we tell people, if you're going to commit a crime, 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:15.280 just commit one crime. If you commit two crimes, you're 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:17.400 way more likely to get caught. Because the fact that 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:19.840 he had cut an ankle bracelet off, we would have 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:23.799 never probably been notified at the time, and had they 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:26.800 just driven down the streets at a normal speed, they 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:29.680 would have blended in with everybody else crying why would 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:31.600 you speed in the middle of town? Did you see 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:35.200 the cops before that? I think we could have made 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:37.919 a different decision. We could have gone a different way 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:41.040 and the police would never have gotten behind us, and 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:44.240 we would have just had continued our merry way, so 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:46.800 he would have been able to get on if that 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:49.160 was their intentions, to get out of state of Florida 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:52.160 very easily. But you know, when you're speeding down, you're 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:55.200 committing now two offenses, one cutting off to the ankle bracelet, 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:59.200 but you are, you know, speeding, It just starts multiplying. 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:02.280 So at that point, you know, it wasn't the fact 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:04.520 that he had cut off his ankle bracelet. Nobody was notified. 0:03:04.560 --> 0:03:08.720 Nobody probably would have been notified immediately. What got them, 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:11.239 you know, having wind or pulling behind him was the 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:13.120 fact that they were speeding. We were each in a 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:17.360 in our different version of escape. You know. It was 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:19.080 like when you have nowhere to go. I mean, you 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:22.560 feel like you're cornered. There's no way back. I think 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:25.959 that was probably one of the scariest moments of being 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:29.160 on the road, is knowing that there's no way you 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:31.480 could ever return to where you're from. You know, you 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:34.480 can never go back to Tampa, you can never go 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:38.360 back to Orlando. It's just, you know, you're completely alienated 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:40.960 from the place where you grew up. And I think 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:44.560 as we're driving farther and farther north, there was a 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:47.200 sense of relief that kind of settled in the car, 0:03:47.480 --> 0:03:49.360 you know. And I just kept looking at Ryan like, 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:52.840 you're damn good driver, because I know I couldn't have 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:56.320 done that. You know, either I would erecked or killed myself, 0:03:56.440 --> 0:03:59.960 killed somebody else. But he really wasn't reacting. I think 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:02.720 away that, you Knowlan and I were reacting. I was 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:07.400 reacting very erratically. I was like, you know, holy sh it, 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:09.720 what are we gonna do? How we just ran from 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:12.640 the cops? What the hell. Here's how Ryan described the 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:15.720 shootout last episode. The goal is always either just not 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:17.760 alcohol on the radiator, because you might have three to 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:20.000 five minutes flat out with one of those Crown Vics 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:23.400 before it overneath fast shot at you from about forty 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:28.040 or left away, and they caught about forty rounds right 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:31.200 above the driver's side. Dire apologize for shooting at him. 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:33.760 It was between him and my freedom and it was 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:36.760 in no way personal. Here's the Docty Gang movie writer 0:04:36.880 --> 0:04:41.680 producer director Sean McEwen speaking with Beth All. My understanding 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:45.680 of that came through the police reports, uh and what 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:49.599 the news had eventually covered, and then that fed into 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:52.400 the opportunity that I had to sit down with each 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:56.040 of you know, Lead Grace, Ryan and Dylan in person 0:04:56.120 --> 0:04:58.360 and talk to them. So when I first met them, 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:02.320 which now I'm thinking is really been about eight years ago, 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:05.200 you know, I'm sitting there with Dylan and you know, 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:07.680 looking at him eyeball to eyeball. He's obviously in prison 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:09.800 and I was out of visitation. You know, when he 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:13.760 recounts the story and you know, so compelling but fascinating, 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:16.719 I think thinks to valliums is you know, flash forward 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:20.240 two years later, as Ryan's telling the story now in 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:22.960 a way, it's his way of trying to protect his siblings, 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:25.400 like essentially him now saying, well, no, I was the 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:27.919 one who was shooting at the Coppins up for Hills. 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:30.200 I was the one who leaned out the window. Yet 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:34.480 he was the one driving. So listen, I know he 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:37.000 keeps mentioning and everyone around him said he was a 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:39.880 great driver. But that's like something out of a not 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:42.080 even a movie, like out of a cartoon or something. 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:44.320 To think you could be flying around a hundred miles 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:46.360 an hour down the streets and up hills and leaned 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:49.880 out the windows shooting perfectly at a cops tire. Um. 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:52.839 I think what's so fascinating about that is even to 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:57.520 this day, they're still trying anything they can to protect 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:00.240 the other one, even if it means jeopard i using 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:03.640 their own freedom or safety. And I think that again 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:07.080 speaks volumes. Ryan is able to protect them. I guess 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:10.039 the circumstances of Florida are different for each one. So 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:13.960 Ryan being able to do that is because he already 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:17.200 accepted a deal. Um, That's how I understand it. Again, 0:06:17.240 --> 0:06:19.200 I don't you know, I'm not wanting to obviously get 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:22.160 anybody in trouble. But how I'm understanding it is is 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:25.320 that you know, Ryan still was up on various charges 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:29.720 and still has certain legal dynamics of dealing with and 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:32.040 because of that, I think he was like, look, I'm 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:34.600 already taking the fall for some things. Um, yes, it 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:36.960 will make my situation that much more challenging, that much 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:39.760 more worse. But again I'd rather, you know, let let 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:42.599 it all right on me to hopefully, you know, ease 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:45.960 up on my my siblings here and makes better for them, 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:47.960 And they always seem to be willing to do that. 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:49.880 This is a family, and these are kids that aren't 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:54.679 going to turn on each other. They would rather take 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:57.880 the fall tenfold than have anything happened to the other one. 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:00.640 Dylan talks to Beth, saying he is actually the one 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:02.960 to pull the trigger. The truth comes down to what 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:06.200 actually happened ten years ago. Were you the one for 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:09.080 the shots or was it Ryan? Sometimes when Ryan talked 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:11.760 about it, it sounded like he had done it. No, 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:14.000 he did. He did. He was driving the car. You know, 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:16.720 when you're driving on in forty it's kind of hard 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:19.080 to shoot. So you know, I did all the student 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:21.240 I which I can say that they know that they 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:25.040 had the video. UM, I've said it before, and you 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:27.000 know what I mean is what it is. I can't 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:30.520 change the past. Here's Ryan followed by Lee Grace. You know, 0:07:30.520 --> 0:07:32.280 it just got to a point when we were driving 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:34.360 and we were like, man, what you know what? Essentially 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:36.960 like what are we doing? Because the original plan is 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:38.680 kind of food bar So you've got to kind of 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:42.520 roll with it. After that initial shape and you realize 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:46.360 you're you've gotten away from the cops, there's a euphorical 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.080 relief like you're like, oh, okay, we're good. We're saying 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:52.480 we don't have to run anymore, we can just drive normally. Well, 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:54.960 the docertees went along their journey feeling they had no 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:58.920 choice but to continue. Law enforcement had a pretty different interpretation. 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:03.280 Here's the active sheriff Naco. But when you have an 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:07.560 incident where there's numerous people in a vehicle, they're shooting 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:11.080 at law enforcement. Um, and then it starts didding up 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:14.080 that he cut the ankle bracelet. Those are patterns that 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:18.800 kind of don't fit in the normal flow. Here's executive 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:22.679 producer Joseph Morgan, a forensic scientist and criminal justice expert. 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:25.880 They sealed their fate at that moment time, because when 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:30.120 someone pulls a weapon with intent to fire in the 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:34.920 direction of police officer, you're challenging not just that police officer, 0:08:35.640 --> 0:08:40.079 but all of the other law enforcement agencies that are 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:43.360 about to descend upon you, because they cannot have a 0:08:43.400 --> 0:08:45.720 group of people run around buck wild, up and down 0:08:45.720 --> 0:08:49.199 the road. The Doughertees cross country Spree was initiated when 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:51.240 twenty one year old Ryan went to court to face 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:55.040 felony charges of sending a minor harmful information and loadingless 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:59.120 of his conduct, sending sexually inappropriate text to a miner 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:02.640 is unarguedly deplorable. It was also one more thing and 0:09:02.679 --> 0:09:05.840 a string of bad actions and situations Ryan got himself in. 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:09.160 Going back to his complicated childhood. Here he is talking 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:12.360 about growing up followed by his mother, Barbara Bell. My 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:16.640 mom tried really hard, and she really loved all of 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:20.319 us kids. Like that's not ever anything that's a singled 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:23.600 doubt in my mind ever any any day of the week. 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:25.440 And none of her kids have got the doubt that ever. 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:28.839 But you know, on the flip side of that, man, 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:31.320 like you know, she she came up short to Marius 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:34.120 and she came through stronger than was necessary and others 0:09:34.120 --> 0:09:36.440 so like you know. And then on the same side 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:38.160 of that, I think, I sit and I think to 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:41.439 myself and Mike, at least she was present. I'm almost there. 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:43.800 Like she worked a lot, she slept a lot, she 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:46.160 was tired from working doubles back to back to back 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:49.440 to back, working her fucking eyes to the phone, you know, 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:52.040 to provide for us. I thought they would be better 0:09:52.040 --> 0:09:56.880 off with a single mother that worked and demonstrated independence 0:09:56.880 --> 0:10:00.320 and encouraged them to be independent, rather than a stay 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:04.280 at home, have nothing, go nowhere mother meeting them at 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:07.240 the bus stop with an apron on and a tray 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:10.400 full of brownies. Now, maybe in retrospect, I would have 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:12.560 been better off to wear the apron and baked the brownies. 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:15.360 Dylan lived a much different life than Lee, Grace and Ryan. 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:18.480 When he was younger, his father Doc and mom Barbara 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:20.959 thought Dylan would have more opportunities by going to live 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:24.520 with his aunt Susanne and uncle Glen in Kentucky. Dylan 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:28.680 could not read in third grade, and at that point 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:31.640 he had already spent a lot of summers in Kentucky 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:35.200 with extended family and was very happy and kept very 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:38.960 busy and out of trouble up there, and so um 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:41.600 at the point where I realized Dylan could not read, 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:44.720 DOC and I both felt that education was extremely important. 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:47.920 And he went up to live out of out of state. 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:51.000 And at that point he missed his brothers and sisters 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:54.000 and they missed him, but they kept in touch over 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:58.000 the phone and occasional letter. My brother was raised by 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:00.400 my aunt and uncle, that was their kid. He had 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:02.959 a different upbringing and me. He learned a different skill set, 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:06.040 and we grew up together until I was about seven 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:08.560 or eight when I moved to Kentucky with my aunt 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:12.920 uncle who later at top three and um my dad 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:15.120 sent me up there. I think partly because I had 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:19.960 a d and also because my an uncle had substantially 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:22.960 more money. I don't know, because he's living on a 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:24.920 farm would be good for me. And I remember my 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:27.600 dad telling me, you know, he said, you know, pay 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:30.959 attention and learned everything in I probably would have tried 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:34.200 harder to keep them all together. However, I couldn't have 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:38.400 dreamed of a better upbringing than Dylan was receiving where 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:41.800 he was living at his new home. Therefore, I thought 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:44.280 I was doing the right thing. John and Ivon Clinton 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:46.839 lived next door to Glenn and Suzanne Stanley. I mean 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:48.960 both of them were great people. It's not hard to 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:53.120 get along with, or not not argumentative or anything like that. 0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:56.280 I mean very nurturing. I'd say both of them were, 0:11:56.320 --> 0:12:01.200 even with Glenn's army career and everything that's for nurturing people. 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:05.960 Glynn was a marine and he had an extraordinary experience 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:09.760 in Vietnam where his all of his unit basically was 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:11.720 killed except for him, and he had to play dad 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:14.040 for I don't know, like twenty four hours. It's I've 0:12:14.080 --> 0:12:16.560 read the story of its incredible. So he was a 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:19.000 he was a gentle person, but he also had a 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:21.960 tough side. I mean I would have trusted him to 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:24.520 raise my children. Living on a farm with it was 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:26.960 an interesting childhood and I called my parents, you know, 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:28.800 it's my aunt and my uncle put there with my 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:31.040 mom and dad. The whole thing really for me, I 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:34.560 had two moms that did love me, and both of 0:12:34.600 --> 0:12:37.040 them had their own individual impacts on my life and 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:40.319 its developed to who I am and then I'll had 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:43.440 to fathers. It had a big impact on my life 0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:46.880 where I've got all my core character and beliefs from 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:49.160 the president. They were great. I think he had a 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:53.240 good balance one now that I've had teenagers, I don't 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:56.440 say that he was necessarily completely out of control. And 0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:58.719 at one time he missed the bus and so one 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:01.160 time they had him walked to school and maybe he 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:03.000 didn't go. I think there's some story like that, but 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:05.880 it was it's almost like a humorous story, like later 0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:09.080 on humorist, like you know, this is the things we 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:11.480 went through or whatever. But um, as far as I know, 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:14.080 I mean, there wasn't any serious things. There was just 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:17.320 teenage stuff. And obviously he didn't throw trauma losing his 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:25.079 dad and obviously that's gonna make life difficult. We're going 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:27.240 to take a quick break here. We'll be back in 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:38.720 a moment. Mom Barbara recounts her husband Doc's death and 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:41.760 the impact on their children. When his father was dying, 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:44.720 and I see you at Central Florida Regional Hospital in Stanford, 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:49.320 where by the way, he had excellent care. Uh. Dylan 0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:52.880 was escorted to his bedside and Doc ask him, please 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:55.760 please look after your younger brother. The hardest thing I 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:57.480 ever had to do in my life was to tell 0:13:57.520 --> 0:14:00.000 my children that their father had died, that he had 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:03.080 breathing and that he had passed away and that they 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:05.680 would not see him again, even the kids that weren't 0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:08.240 they weren't his nieces and nephews. That everybody called him 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:11.760 huncle dog everywhere. But that was just our family. Our 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:14.120 atmosphere in our home was, you know, what was having fun. 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:16.080 We were always said, you know, run and you know, 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:18.200 the rains were very loose. But yeah, I think he's 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:21.520 would be way different. Obviously if my father hadn't passed away. 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:23.640 I don't think it was permanent at the time. I 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:25.200 don't think he wants to do with like perman I 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:26.880 think it may have been in his mind I was 0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:28.720 going to go up there and live for two or three, 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:31.760 you know years or something, and not what happened. You know, 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:33.800 he died and I wasn't able to move back. Then. 0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:38.120 He was not legally adopted up there until after Doc died. 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:40.000 And after Doc died, I said, this is the best 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:42.360 thing I could possibly do for my son is to 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:46.040 allow him to be adopted. And so we was. We 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:48.400 still kept in touch. We were all in the same family, 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:53.200 but it was different. Dylan has a very strong draw 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:56.360 to all his siblings, and I think this was hard 0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:59.280 on Dylan, and once he became an adult, he kept 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:03.480 in very close touch with his sisters and his younger 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:06.800 brother and sister. Once Doc passed away, I knew I 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:10.120 couldn't handle five kids, especially with two teenage girls who 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:13.840 were already less than perfectly obedient. As is not unusual 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:16.480 at all, Lee Grace and Ryan were growing up under 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:20.040 far different circumstances. My mom is just the academy of 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:22.840 you know, mommy diarist, So you just had to catch her, 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:27.040 you know, on a good day. After Doc died. It 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:29.960 was like night and day. Before Doc died, those kids 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:34.080 were pretty much well behaved and no problems. But after 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:37.680 he died, I will admit I lost control of the kids. 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:40.800 The oldest was fourteen, the youngest was seven. The younger 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:45.600 ones were still good, but the teenagers did not do 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:49.040 everything I asked them to do. Here's Lee Grace speaking 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:52.600 with producer Beth Greenwald. My mom's number one rule for 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:55.880 us children was, if you of an adult is speaking 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:58.880 to her, do not contradict what she is saying, because 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:01.160 she wants to be in control of the narrative. You know, 0:16:01.280 --> 0:16:03.920 she wants to be in charge and kids are not 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:07.160 to back cross their parents because it looks trashy. What 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:09.760 was the punishment for talking back? You know, it was 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:12.920 different for each child because my mom was very last 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:15.680 with Ryan, and you have to look at what type 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:19.640 of child he was. He was a very smiley, very 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:23.880 easy going, soft spoken. He was a real sweetheart. So 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:27.240 my mom she didn't really have to put her hands 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:30.520 on Ryan like the older children. So I think when 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:33.480 my mom looked at him, maybe she's all something of 0:16:33.520 --> 0:16:35.640 my father in him, you know, maybe that's why she 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:38.080 didn't hit him as much. You know, the one time 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:40.160 that I did fight my mom, I ended up in 0:16:40.600 --> 0:16:43.760 juvenile you know, I was in j DC, So you know, 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:46.040 I knew that was wrong to hit my mom. Why 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:47.960 did I hit my mom? Because I felt like she 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:52.400 deserved it, and it was really something I'm not proud of. 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:54.680 But I think everything in your path you have to 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:57.040 own it. You have to say I did this. I 0:16:57.080 --> 0:16:59.120 did this for a reason. It might not be a 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:01.320 great reason, but you did it. Did you tell my 0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:03.680 mom would lose her temper she fold her tongue in half, 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:05.960 that she would bite it and then you would know, crap, 0:17:06.040 --> 0:17:08.840 she's lost her cool? Get away from her. But when 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:10.760 we live on a big farm, go away from her 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:12.600 for like an hour or two, and she's fine again. 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:16.480 It's like anybody. There's no like real abuse that occurred, 0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:19.480 nothing more than whatever happened with other kids in the 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:21.960 eighties and nineties. You know, I never saw my siblings 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:25.040 get abused. Never. Never, Like if you get spat, if 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:27.000 you get whipped. I don't see that as abused, as 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:29.080 long as you have your emotions in check when you 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:33.840 do it. My relationship with my mom deteriorated, so I 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:37.199 didn't have a real close relationship. Um. You know, no 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:40.000 matter how close we were, we still had a lot 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:42.840 of you know, animosity, a lot of anger. The way 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:48.400 that his death affected my children, Lee, Grace, my oldest, 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:53.320 my beautiful little China doll, she more or less blocked 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:56.879 it out. She never grieved till over a year after 0:17:56.960 --> 0:18:01.320 he had been gone. She called mother good night. There 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:04.000 was something funny in her voice, and I went in 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:05.760 the living room and sat down with her and we 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:08.080 went through a photo album together, and that was the 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:11.560 first she cried after Doc died. She did not handle 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:14.240 it well. I think that we need counseling. I think 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:17.080 that we need somebody to sit down with us in 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:22.520 a private room and go back to our childhood, our 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:26.000 young adulthood and to see where all this trauma and 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:31.240 this you know, this family dynamic that makes you do 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:35.560 something that brings you to prison. Here again, Sean McEwan, 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:37.679 and the Grace has been open about this, and you 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:40.200 know she had her drug use problems, and it's almost 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:42.480 like this sense of like, man, she could have used 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:45.520 help and not jail, Like do any feeling on just 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:49.120 that subject. I'm so sorry for my daughter because she's 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:52.639 a different person now, a very kind, caring, loving person. 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:56.960 And all my kids will always be my kids, and 0:18:57.240 --> 0:18:59.399 I love them very much, and I'm very proud of 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:02.920 them for holding up as well as they have under 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:07.960 extremely dire circumstances. It would be the greatest hope for 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:11.600 their futures from where you're sitting. Who did Doc used 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:13.800 to say, hoping one hand and ship in the other 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:16.760 and see which one fills up first. I have hope 0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:20.480 that my children will continue to be strong and courageous 0:19:20.520 --> 0:19:24.119 and good people no matter where they are. That's not 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:27.880 a hope, that's a that's a reality. Okay, They're gonna 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:30.120 be strong they're gonna be brave, they're gonna be good 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:34.280 people wherever they are. All the times I was just underwater, 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:37.520 just drowning, just I had nothing going on in my life, 0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:39.880 you know, I was just going down that rabbit hole 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:44.040 of drugs and pills and just my own insecurities and 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:47.600 my anxiety. You know, one hall or text message from Dylan, 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:50.560 and I would just realize, Hey, he's gonna come get me, 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:52.760 and I'm gonna be okay, you know. So I didn't 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:54.800 have a lot of worry because I knew at the 0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:57.000 end of the day, if I called Dylan and told him, Hey, 0:19:57.240 --> 0:19:59.960 this is what's happening, I knew Dylan was gonna draw 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:01.960 what he was doing and saved me, you know. And 0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:04.560 that's important when you have a sibling like that, you 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:08.520 know that you cannot go under a certain line. Here's Joseph, 0:20:09.280 --> 0:20:11.280 you know. Even her brother, you know, years later, had 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:12.919 to bring her back to what they referred to as 0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:16.280 the farm and help her dry out. Can you imagine, 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:18.639 you know, And it's hard for a lot of folks 0:20:18.640 --> 0:20:20.560 to image and that you've got an older sister whom 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:23.359 you're a door and you love and you're bound to 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:25.200 you've been through a lot, You've been through a lot 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:29.600 of loss, and you see her kind of spinning you 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:34.600 off like a top off its axis. I can't speak 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:38.080 to this as a lifelong death investigator. That's all I 0:20:38.160 --> 0:20:40.480 did for a living, working with a corner of New 0:20:40.560 --> 0:20:43.960 Orleans of the Emmy in Atlanta. I've described death from 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:46.119 the four. It's like the slabby drunk at a party 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:50.159 that will never leave your life. Death is always there. 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:54.960