1 00:00:01,600 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: My mom was a world of contradictions. She would pet 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: your head and tell you how well behaved and talented 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: you were. She didn't like to be sassed. She couldn't 4 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: stand us screaming in the car or running from her 5 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,639 Speaker 1: in the grocery store. The things she hated most was 6 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: causing a scene. She felt like outsiders were judging her 7 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: for having bad children. Looking back, I can see why 8 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: she was so nuts. She had five children in eight years. 9 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,159 Speaker 1: Her obstetrician had warned her several times that her body 10 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: wasn't going to withstand much more damage. He was right. 11 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: She could never have children again. So you see, we 12 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: almost killed my mom by just being born. Welcome to 13 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: The Dougherty Gang, a production of I Heart Radio and 14 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: Katie Studios episode four Less than Perfectly Obedient. I'm Courtney Armstrong, 15 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: a crime producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Ladecker. We've 16 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: been working with producer Beth Greenwald on The Dockerty Gang 17 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: for months now. The three siblings have agreed to tell 18 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: their story for the very first time, each from separate prisons. 19 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 1: Lee Grace Dockerty is at Federal Correction Institute Aliceville in Alabama. 20 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 1: Ryan is in the United States Penitentiary Tucson in Arizona, 21 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: and Dylan is at the Federal Corrections Institute in Bennettsville 22 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: in South Carolina. This call was from the Federal prison. 23 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: When you have that amount of a journaline going through you, 24 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:25,279 Speaker 1: you're not sure how to act because it's not something 25 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: that's happening every single day. You know, we don't we 26 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: don't have that type of interaction, So everything was happening 27 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: very staff. The Doughertys had zero chance of flying under 28 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: the radar after a high speed chase in which they 29 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: shot at a Pascal County sheriff deputy with an AK 30 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 1: forty seven. Here's older brother Dylan. I feel like I'm 31 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: having a heart attack for about four hours after that 32 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: morning they're troubled. Began in Florida, when officials say twenty 33 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: nine year old Lee, one year old Ryan, and twenty 34 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: six year old Dylan led police in a high speed chase, 35 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: then opened fire, got a way after shooting out the 36 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: police car is tired. Sheriff Chris Naco, the sheriff of 37 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: Pascal County, shares his thoughts on the start of the 38 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: Dougherty Gangs crime spree. It's ironic and law of force. 39 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: And we tell people, if you're going to commit a crime, 40 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: just commit one crime. If you commit two crimes, you're 41 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 1: way more likely to get caught. Because the fact that 42 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: he had cut an ankle bracelet off, we would have 43 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:23,799 Speaker 1: never probably been notified at the time, and had they 44 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 1: just driven down the streets at a normal speed, they 45 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: would have blended in with everybody else crying why would 46 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: you speed in the middle of town? Did you see 47 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: the cops before that? I think we could have made 48 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:37,919 Speaker 1: a different decision. We could have gone a different way 49 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: and the police would never have gotten behind us, and 50 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: we would have just had continued our merry way, so 51 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 1: he would have been able to get on if that 52 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: was their intentions, to get out of state of Florida 53 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: very easily. But you know, when you're speeding down, you're 54 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: committing now two offenses, one cutting off to the ankle bracelet, 55 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: but you are, you know, speeding, It just starts multiplying. 56 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: So at that point, you know, it wasn't the fact 57 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: that he had cut off his ankle bracelet. Nobody was notified. 58 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: Nobody probably would have been notified immediately. What got them, 59 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:11,239 Speaker 1: you know, having wind or pulling behind him was the 60 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 1: fact that they were speeding. We were each in a 61 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 1: in our different version of escape. You know. It was 62 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 1: like when you have nowhere to go. I mean, you 63 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: feel like you're cornered. There's no way back. I think 64 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,959 Speaker 1: that was probably one of the scariest moments of being 65 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: on the road, is knowing that there's no way you 66 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: could ever return to where you're from. You know, you 67 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: can never go back to Tampa, you can never go 68 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 1: back to Orlando. It's just, you know, you're completely alienated 69 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: from the place where you grew up. And I think 70 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: as we're driving farther and farther north, there was a 71 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: sense of relief that kind of settled in the car, 72 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: you know. And I just kept looking at Ryan like, 73 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: you're damn good driver, because I know I couldn't have 74 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: done that. You know, either I would erecked or killed myself, 75 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: killed somebody else. But he really wasn't reacting. I think 76 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: away that, you Knowlan and I were reacting. I was 77 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: reacting very erratically. I was like, you know, holy sh it, 78 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 1: what are we gonna do? How we just ran from 79 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: the cops? What the hell. Here's how Ryan described the 80 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: shootout last episode. The goal is always either just not 81 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: alcohol on the radiator, because you might have three to 82 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: five minutes flat out with one of those Crown Vics 83 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: before it overneath fast shot at you from about forty 84 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 1: or left away, and they caught about forty rounds right 85 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 1: above the driver's side. Dire apologize for shooting at him. 86 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: It was between him and my freedom and it was 87 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: in no way personal. Here's the Docty Gang movie writer 88 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: producer director Sean McEwen speaking with Beth All. My understanding 89 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: of that came through the police reports, uh and what 90 00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: the news had eventually covered, and then that fed into 91 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: the opportunity that I had to sit down with each 92 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 1: of you know, Lead Grace, Ryan and Dylan in person 93 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: and talk to them. So when I first met them, 94 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: which now I'm thinking is really been about eight years ago, 95 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: you know, I'm sitting there with Dylan and you know, 96 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: looking at him eyeball to eyeball. He's obviously in prison 97 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: and I was out of visitation. You know, when he 98 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: recounts the story and you know, so compelling but fascinating, 99 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: I think thinks to valliums is you know, flash forward 100 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: two years later, as Ryan's telling the story now in 101 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: a way, it's his way of trying to protect his siblings, 102 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: like essentially him now saying, well, no, I was the 103 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:27,919 Speaker 1: one who was shooting at the Coppins up for Hills. 104 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: I was the one who leaned out the window. Yet 105 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 1: he was the one driving. So listen, I know he 106 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: keeps mentioning and everyone around him said he was a 107 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: great driver. But that's like something out of a not 108 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: even a movie, like out of a cartoon or something. 109 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: To think you could be flying around a hundred miles 110 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:46,360 Speaker 1: an hour down the streets and up hills and leaned 111 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: out the windows shooting perfectly at a cops tire. Um. 112 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 1: I think what's so fascinating about that is even to 113 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: this day, they're still trying anything they can to protect 114 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: the other one, even if it means jeopard i using 115 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: their own freedom or safety. And I think that again 116 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: speaks volumes. Ryan is able to protect them. I guess 117 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 1: the circumstances of Florida are different for each one. So 118 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: Ryan being able to do that is because he already 119 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: accepted a deal. Um, That's how I understand it. Again, 120 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: I don't you know, I'm not wanting to obviously get 121 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:22,160 Speaker 1: anybody in trouble. But how I'm understanding it is is 122 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: that you know, Ryan still was up on various charges 123 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 1: and still has certain legal dynamics of dealing with and 124 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 1: because of that, I think he was like, look, I'm 125 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 1: already taking the fall for some things. Um, yes, it 126 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: will make my situation that much more challenging, that much 127 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: more worse. But again I'd rather, you know, let let 128 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 1: it all right on me to hopefully, you know, ease 129 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: up on my my siblings here and makes better for them, 130 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: And they always seem to be willing to do that. 131 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: This is a family, and these are kids that aren't 132 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:54,679 Speaker 1: going to turn on each other. They would rather take 133 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: the fall tenfold than have anything happened to the other one. 134 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: Dylan talks to Beth, saying he is actually the one 135 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: to pull the trigger. The truth comes down to what 136 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: actually happened ten years ago. Were you the one for 137 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: the shots or was it Ryan? Sometimes when Ryan talked 138 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: about it, it sounded like he had done it. No, 139 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: he did. He did. He was driving the car. You know, 140 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: when you're driving on in forty it's kind of hard 141 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 1: to shoot. So you know, I did all the student 142 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: I which I can say that they know that they 143 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: had the video. UM, I've said it before, and you 144 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: know what I mean is what it is. I can't 145 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: change the past. Here's Ryan followed by Lee Grace. You know, 146 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 1: it just got to a point when we were driving 147 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: and we were like, man, what you know what? Essentially 148 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: like what are we doing? Because the original plan is 149 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: kind of food bar So you've got to kind of 150 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: roll with it. After that initial shape and you realize 151 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: you're you've gotten away from the cops, there's a euphorical 152 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,080 Speaker 1: relief like you're like, oh, okay, we're good. We're saying 153 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: we don't have to run anymore, we can just drive normally. Well, 154 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: the docertees went along their journey feeling they had no 155 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: choice but to continue. Law enforcement had a pretty different interpretation. 156 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: Here's the active sheriff Naco. But when you have an 157 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 1: incident where there's numerous people in a vehicle, they're shooting 158 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: at law enforcement. Um, and then it starts didding up 159 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: that he cut the ankle bracelet. Those are patterns that 160 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: kind of don't fit in the normal flow. Here's executive 161 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,679 Speaker 1: producer Joseph Morgan, a forensic scientist and criminal justice expert. 162 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: They sealed their fate at that moment time, because when 163 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: someone pulls a weapon with intent to fire in the 164 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: direction of police officer, you're challenging not just that police officer, 165 00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:40,079 Speaker 1: but all of the other law enforcement agencies that are 166 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: about to descend upon you, because they cannot have a 167 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: group of people run around buck wild, up and down 168 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:49,199 Speaker 1: the road. The Doughertees cross country Spree was initiated when 169 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: twenty one year old Ryan went to court to face 170 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: felony charges of sending a minor harmful information and loadingless 171 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: of his conduct, sending sexually inappropriate text to a miner 172 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 1: is unarguedly deplorable. It was also one more thing and 173 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: a string of bad actions and situations Ryan got himself in. 174 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 1: Going back to his complicated childhood. Here he is talking 175 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: about growing up followed by his mother, Barbara Bell. My 176 00:09:12,400 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: mom tried really hard, and she really loved all of 177 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:20,319 Speaker 1: us kids. Like that's not ever anything that's a singled 178 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: doubt in my mind ever any any day of the week. 179 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 1: And none of her kids have got the doubt that ever. 180 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:28,839 Speaker 1: But you know, on the flip side of that, man, 181 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 1: like you know, she she came up short to Marius 182 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: and she came through stronger than was necessary and others 183 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: so like you know. And then on the same side 184 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: of that, I think, I sit and I think to 185 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:41,439 Speaker 1: myself and Mike, at least she was present. I'm almost there. 186 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: Like she worked a lot, she slept a lot, she 187 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: was tired from working doubles back to back to back 188 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,440 Speaker 1: to back, working her fucking eyes to the phone, you know, 189 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: to provide for us. I thought they would be better 190 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: off with a single mother that worked and demonstrated independence 191 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: and encouraged them to be independent, rather than a stay 192 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: at home, have nothing, go nowhere mother meeting them at 193 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: the bus stop with an apron on and a tray 194 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: full of brownies. Now, maybe in retrospect, I would have 195 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 1: been better off to wear the apron and baked the brownies. 196 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: Dylan lived a much different life than Lee, Grace and Ryan. 197 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: When he was younger, his father Doc and mom Barbara 198 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,959 Speaker 1: thought Dylan would have more opportunities by going to live 199 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: with his aunt Susanne and uncle Glen in Kentucky. Dylan 200 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 1: could not read in third grade, and at that point 201 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: he had already spent a lot of summers in Kentucky 202 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: with extended family and was very happy and kept very 203 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: busy and out of trouble up there, and so um 204 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: at the point where I realized Dylan could not read, 205 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: DOC and I both felt that education was extremely important. 206 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: And he went up to live out of out of state. 207 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: And at that point he missed his brothers and sisters 208 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: and they missed him, but they kept in touch over 209 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: the phone and occasional letter. My brother was raised by 210 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: my aunt and uncle, that was their kid. He had 211 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:02,959 Speaker 1: a different upbringing and me. He learned a different skill set, 212 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: and we grew up together until I was about seven 213 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: or eight when I moved to Kentucky with my aunt 214 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: uncle who later at top three and um my dad 215 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: sent me up there. I think partly because I had 216 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 1: a d and also because my an uncle had substantially 217 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 1: more money. I don't know, because he's living on a 218 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:24,920 Speaker 1: farm would be good for me. And I remember my 219 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: dad telling me, you know, he said, you know, pay 220 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,959 Speaker 1: attention and learned everything in I probably would have tried 221 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 1: harder to keep them all together. However, I couldn't have 222 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: dreamed of a better upbringing than Dylan was receiving where 223 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: he was living at his new home. Therefore, I thought 224 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 1: I was doing the right thing. John and Ivon Clinton 225 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:46,839 Speaker 1: lived next door to Glenn and Suzanne Stanley. I mean 226 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 1: both of them were great people. It's not hard to 227 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: get along with, or not not argumentative or anything like that. 228 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 1: I mean very nurturing. I'd say both of them were, 229 00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 1: even with Glenn's army career and everything that's for nurturing people. 230 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: Glynn was a marine and he had an extraordinary experience 231 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: in Vietnam where his all of his unit basically was 232 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: killed except for him, and he had to play dad 233 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 1: for I don't know, like twenty four hours. It's I've 234 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: read the story of its incredible. So he was a 235 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: he was a gentle person, but he also had a 236 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 1: tough side. I mean I would have trusted him to 237 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: raise my children. Living on a farm with it was 238 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 1: an interesting childhood and I called my parents, you know, 239 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: it's my aunt and my uncle put there with my 240 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: mom and dad. The whole thing really for me, I 241 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 1: had two moms that did love me, and both of 242 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 1: them had their own individual impacts on my life and 243 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,319 Speaker 1: its developed to who I am and then I'll had 244 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 1: to fathers. It had a big impact on my life 245 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: where I've got all my core character and beliefs from 246 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: the president. They were great. I think he had a 247 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: good balance one now that I've had teenagers, I don't 248 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 1: say that he was necessarily completely out of control. And 249 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:58,719 Speaker 1: at one time he missed the bus and so one 250 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: time they had him walked to school and maybe he 251 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 1: didn't go. I think there's some story like that, but 252 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 1: it was it's almost like a humorous story, like later 253 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 1: on humorist, like you know, this is the things we 254 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: went through or whatever. But um, as far as I know, 255 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: I mean, there wasn't any serious things. There was just 256 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 1: teenage stuff. And obviously he didn't throw trauma losing his 257 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:25,079 Speaker 1: dad and obviously that's gonna make life difficult. We're going 258 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: to take a quick break here. We'll be back in 259 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: a moment. Mom Barbara recounts her husband Doc's death and 260 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: the impact on their children. When his father was dying, 261 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: and I see you at Central Florida Regional Hospital in Stanford, 262 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: where by the way, he had excellent care. Uh. Dylan 263 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: was escorted to his bedside and Doc ask him, please 264 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: please look after your younger brother. The hardest thing I 265 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: ever had to do in my life was to tell 266 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: my children that their father had died, that he had 267 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 1: breathing and that he had passed away and that they 268 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 1: would not see him again, even the kids that weren't 269 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: they weren't his nieces and nephews. That everybody called him 270 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 1: huncle dog everywhere. But that was just our family. Our 271 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: atmosphere in our home was, you know, what was having fun. 272 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 1: We were always said, you know, run and you know, 273 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 1: the rains were very loose. But yeah, I think he's 274 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: would be way different. Obviously if my father hadn't passed away. 275 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: I don't think it was permanent at the time. I 276 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: don't think he wants to do with like perman I 277 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:26,880 Speaker 1: think it may have been in his mind I was 278 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: going to go up there and live for two or three, 279 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: you know years or something, and not what happened. You know, 280 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: he died and I wasn't able to move back. Then. 281 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: He was not legally adopted up there until after Doc died. 282 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: And after Doc died, I said, this is the best 283 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: thing I could possibly do for my son is to 284 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: allow him to be adopted. And so we was. We 285 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: still kept in touch. We were all in the same family, 286 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: but it was different. Dylan has a very strong draw 287 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: to all his siblings, and I think this was hard 288 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: on Dylan, and once he became an adult, he kept 289 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: in very close touch with his sisters and his younger 290 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 1: brother and sister. Once Doc passed away, I knew I 291 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: couldn't handle five kids, especially with two teenage girls who 292 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: were already less than perfectly obedient. As is not unusual 293 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 1: at all, Lee Grace and Ryan were growing up under 294 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: far different circumstances. My mom is just the academy of 295 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: you know, mommy diarist, So you just had to catch her, 296 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: you know, on a good day. After Doc died. It 297 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: was like night and day. Before Doc died, those kids 298 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: were pretty much well behaved and no problems. But after 299 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: he died, I will admit I lost control of the kids. 300 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: The oldest was fourteen, the youngest was seven. The younger 301 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: ones were still good, but the teenagers did not do 302 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: everything I asked them to do. Here's Lee Grace speaking 303 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: with producer Beth Greenwald. My mom's number one rule for 304 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: us children was, if you of an adult is speaking 305 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 1: to her, do not contradict what she is saying, because 306 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: she wants to be in control of the narrative. You know, 307 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: she wants to be in charge and kids are not 308 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: to back cross their parents because it looks trashy. What 309 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: was the punishment for talking back? You know, it was 310 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: different for each child because my mom was very last 311 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: with Ryan, and you have to look at what type 312 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: of child he was. He was a very smiley, very 313 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 1: easy going, soft spoken. He was a real sweetheart. So 314 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: my mom she didn't really have to put her hands 315 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: on Ryan like the older children. So I think when 316 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: my mom looked at him, maybe she's all something of 317 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: my father in him, you know, maybe that's why she 318 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: didn't hit him as much. You know, the one time 319 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: that I did fight my mom, I ended up in 320 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: juvenile you know, I was in j DC, So you know, 321 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 1: I knew that was wrong to hit my mom. Why 322 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: did I hit my mom? Because I felt like she 323 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: deserved it, and it was really something I'm not proud of. 324 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: But I think everything in your path you have to 325 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: own it. You have to say I did this. I 326 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: did this for a reason. It might not be a 327 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: great reason, but you did it. Did you tell my 328 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: mom would lose her temper she fold her tongue in half, 329 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: that she would bite it and then you would know, crap, 330 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: she's lost her cool? Get away from her. But when 331 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: we live on a big farm, go away from her 332 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: for like an hour or two, and she's fine again. 333 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: It's like anybody. There's no like real abuse that occurred, 334 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 1: nothing more than whatever happened with other kids in the 335 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 1: eighties and nineties. You know, I never saw my siblings 336 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: get abused. Never. Never, Like if you get spat, if 337 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: you get whipped. I don't see that as abused, as 338 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 1: long as you have your emotions in check when you 339 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: do it. My relationship with my mom deteriorated, so I 340 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,199 Speaker 1: didn't have a real close relationship. Um. You know, no 341 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: matter how close we were, we still had a lot 342 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 1: of you know, animosity, a lot of anger. The way 343 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 1: that his death affected my children, Lee, Grace, my oldest, 344 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: my beautiful little China doll, she more or less blocked 345 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 1: it out. She never grieved till over a year after 346 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 1: he had been gone. She called mother good night. There 347 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: was something funny in her voice, and I went in 348 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: the living room and sat down with her and we 349 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: went through a photo album together, and that was the 350 00:18:08,119 --> 00:18:11,560 Speaker 1: first she cried after Doc died. She did not handle 351 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: it well. I think that we need counseling. I think 352 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: that we need somebody to sit down with us in 353 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 1: a private room and go back to our childhood, our 354 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: young adulthood and to see where all this trauma and 355 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: this you know, this family dynamic that makes you do 356 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: something that brings you to prison. Here again, Sean McEwan, 357 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:37,679 Speaker 1: and the Grace has been open about this, and you 358 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 1: know she had her drug use problems, and it's almost 359 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: like this sense of like, man, she could have used 360 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: help and not jail, Like do any feeling on just 361 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:49,120 Speaker 1: that subject. I'm so sorry for my daughter because she's 362 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 1: a different person now, a very kind, caring, loving person. 363 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 1: And all my kids will always be my kids, and 364 00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 1: I love them very much, and I'm very proud of 365 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 1: them for holding up as well as they have under 366 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: extremely dire circumstances. It would be the greatest hope for 367 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: their futures from where you're sitting. Who did Doc used 368 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: to say, hoping one hand and ship in the other 369 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: and see which one fills up first. I have hope 370 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: that my children will continue to be strong and courageous 371 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 1: and good people no matter where they are. That's not 372 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,880 Speaker 1: a hope, that's a that's a reality. Okay, They're gonna 373 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,120 Speaker 1: be strong they're gonna be brave, they're gonna be good 374 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: people wherever they are. All the times I was just underwater, 375 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,520 Speaker 1: just drowning, just I had nothing going on in my life, 376 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:39,880 Speaker 1: you know, I was just going down that rabbit hole 377 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 1: of drugs and pills and just my own insecurities and 378 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: my anxiety. You know, one hall or text message from Dylan, 379 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: and I would just realize, Hey, he's gonna come get me, 380 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna be okay, you know. So I didn't 381 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: have a lot of worry because I knew at the 382 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: end of the day, if I called Dylan and told him, Hey, 383 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: this is what's happening, I knew Dylan was gonna draw 384 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: what he was doing and saved me, you know. And 385 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:04,560 Speaker 1: that's important when you have a sibling like that, you 386 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: know that you cannot go under a certain line. Here's Joseph, 387 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 1: you know. Even her brother, you know, years later, had 388 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 1: to bring her back to what they referred to as 389 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: the farm and help her dry out. Can you imagine, 390 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:18,639 Speaker 1: you know, And it's hard for a lot of folks 391 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 1: to image and that you've got an older sister whom 392 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 1: you're a door and you love and you're bound to 393 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 1: you've been through a lot, You've been through a lot 394 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: of loss, and you see her kind of spinning you 395 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: off like a top off its axis. I can't speak 396 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: to this as a lifelong death investigator. That's all I 397 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: did for a living, working with a corner of New 398 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: Orleans of the Emmy in Atlanta. I've described death from 399 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: the four. It's like the slabby drunk at a party 400 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 1: that will never leave your life. Death is always there. 401 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: It has a residue that sticks to you. I moved 402 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: out and after id and then with my stepdad got cancer, 403 00:20:58,000 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: my parents kind of asked me to move back home 404 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: because my mom needed a lot of help. My stepdad, uh, 405 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 1: you know, he died when I was twenty four. It 406 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: was weird. And I lost my real dad when I 407 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: was twelve, and then he died twelve years later when 408 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: I was twenty four. And uh, my aunt mom has 409 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: since remarried, and she's been married for several years now, 410 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 1: and she lives in Virginia and the Canada River Valley 411 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 1: with her new houseband, which which I like. He's a 412 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: nice guy and takes takes care of her. And you know, 413 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: I can't ask for anything more than the son McEwan 414 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 1: discusses how Dylan tried to help Brian and Lee Grace 415 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: get back on track. I think that you know from 416 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,640 Speaker 1: my discussions with Dylan that he always spelt a sense 417 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:36,920 Speaker 1: of guilt in that here he got to go live 418 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: with me at and uncles, you know, where they were 419 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 1: raising horses and doing the whole farthing thing and all 420 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: that kind of great stuff, and here they were kind 421 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 1: of left in a situation that was challenging to say 422 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:49,920 Speaker 1: the least, and in doing so, I think when he 423 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: did eventually come back into a live and make his 424 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: way back down to Florida, uh, in his you know, 425 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: late late teams to early twenties, um, he did always 426 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 1: steal the sense of response, stability and maybe guilt and 427 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: regret that he got to go away. So, you know, 428 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: keeping them safe was, you know, seemed to be always 429 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: a motivation for him. So when he comes back into 430 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:12,479 Speaker 1: the picture and he sees that limes in this kind 431 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 1: of situation where you know, Lion's gotten into trouble with 432 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 1: the law and is going to potentially violate his probation, 433 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 1: and he sent back for far too many years to 434 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: mention and the graces I mean to be blunt is, 435 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: you know, stripping in a strip club down in Cocoa Beach, Florida, 436 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: and you know, getting in trouble with a long people 437 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,880 Speaker 1: and using drugs and all that stuff. And he saw 438 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 1: that their lives were kind of a mess, and I 439 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:37,439 Speaker 1: think in a way, he saw this opportunity to protect 440 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 1: them finally, to kind of round them up and keep 441 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: them safe and obviously making a lot of very distinct 442 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 1: decisions and doing so that impacted their lives and probably 443 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: not the right decision. And I say that very facetiously, 444 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: but he did that nonetheless. So that was a big 445 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:55,640 Speaker 1: part of that. Also, my brother has always been there 446 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 1: to kind of bail me out, and even to his 447 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 1: own gentriment. You know, he just has that in him. 448 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: He's he's a fighter. He's gonna fight for his family, 449 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 1: he's gonna fight for people that he loves. And once 450 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: you're a friend of Dylan, he will never leave you behind, 451 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: no matter how bad or treacherous. I've never seen Dylan 452 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 1: falter never, no matter what it is. You know, when 453 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 1: we were on the road, something bad would happen. I said, 454 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 1: oh my god, I'm so you know, what's gonna happen 455 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: in Asia, he'd say, just calm down, I'm here. We're 456 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: gonna take care of this as a team. You know. No, 457 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: Dylan's big thing is no man left behind. He's not 458 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,119 Speaker 1: gonna leave a straggler. He does not drop his teammates. 459 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:35,119 Speaker 1: He's gonna pull you out of that burning building. I 460 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 1: don't care if your bar, your body is charged to 461 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: a Chris, He's still gonna save you. Dylan was loyal, 462 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,439 Speaker 1: hard working, and had a clean record, despite what the 463 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 1: media was saying. The sheriff here in Pascoe County says 464 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: all three siblings have a criminal record, and the siblings 465 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 1: all have a troubled past, including drug possession, battery, and burglary. 466 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: Mom Barbara speaks up in defensive her son. He had 467 00:23:56,000 --> 00:24:00,479 Speaker 1: a misdemeanor marijuana charge for an empty baggy that may 468 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 1: or may not have contained an herb that is now 469 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: legal in seventeen state. So that was his big criminal record. 470 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: Twenty six years old, Eve's never a trouble a day 471 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: in his life. A really fine, hard working, good person. 472 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 1: I've never been to jail. I was twenty three. I 473 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 1: was actually taking Ryan to turn himself into jail. That's 474 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: hard to believe. Isn't it. My brother actually had an 475 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: active warrant and that's why we he was over there 476 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 1: to to to go to jail and get that. We 477 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 1: get that taken care of. When I got arrested, I 478 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: went to jail for an empty plastic bag, I believe 479 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 1: it or not. It probably had like residue. There was 480 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 1: no shaking. It was just like the crystal, like the 481 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 1: actual the th HC. They arresting for possession of marijuana. 482 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: That's what that was. What it was like I said, 483 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,440 Speaker 1: it was an empty plastic bag. Was later expunged off 484 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 1: my record. You know, I don't litter, so if the 485 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 1: bag was still in the car, let's stop here for 486 00:24:55,440 --> 00:25:06,120 Speaker 1: another quick break. We'll be back in a moment. Lee 487 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 1: Grace talks about their decision to make the next choice 488 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: on their journey, and then, um, as we got to 489 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: the north part of seventy five, you know, you're realizing 490 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 1: that you got away, but how far are you going 491 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 1: to get with very little cash flow? Once that money 492 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 1: is gone, you know, you need money for gas, you 493 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:30,959 Speaker 1: need money for food, and traveling very expensive. So I 494 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 1: felt like at that point, you know, once we got 495 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: over the state line, it was kind of one of 496 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: those situations like we're just looking at each other like, well, 497 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 1: I guess it's I guess we're gonna have to do this, 498 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: And I think, um, you know, as you know, you're 499 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 1: a group dynamic and you have an incident happening, you 500 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 1: make it away from that incident. It kind of gives 501 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: you a feeling that you know you're invincible. You can't 502 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: get caught because if you it, if they really wanted 503 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 1: to catch you, or if they could catch you, they 504 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: would already cost you. So it gives you that you 505 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: fork freedom to kind of do something else. And I 506 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: think that's you know, that's where you get. You get 507 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: caught up, that's where you get you make your mistakes. 508 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: It's because you allow yourself show us enough for what 509 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: elp to hang yourself because you realize, well, it really 510 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,479 Speaker 1: wasn't that hard. My brother was a good driver, you know, 511 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 1: our fumer held up pretty well and we didn't get caught. 512 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,160 Speaker 1: So maybe we can just keep going down this road 513 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,679 Speaker 1: and you know, get away with it. So you know, 514 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 1: it's a double edged forward. You get away, but for 515 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 1: how long? Here again is on the whole idea of 516 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,159 Speaker 1: robbing banks was still on the fly. And this is 517 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 1: how this was expressed to me, was that as they 518 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 1: were on the run, one bad situation led to another, 519 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden they faced with the 520 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 1: fact that they get in the shootout with a cop 521 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,280 Speaker 1: and then it's like, man, how are we going to 522 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,120 Speaker 1: make this happen to get out of the country. I'm 523 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 1: not trying to romanticize this, but this all came through 524 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: the sieve of watching movies. It's like, you know, banks, well, 525 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: banks are ensured it's the government's money. In a way, 526 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: we're not. We're not taking from people, you know, it's 527 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: the system that did us wrong. That was their perception 528 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: and misperception. So we'll go in and we'll take from 529 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: the banks, because hey, that's fair, and then we'll use 530 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 1: that money to finance ourselves and get It's kind of 531 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,119 Speaker 1: like the you know, came from the rich, give to 532 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: the poor kind of thing, because they kind of looked 533 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:32,959 Speaker 1: at hey, we're the poor. I know it sounds funny 534 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 1: and comical, but that's kind of how they looked at it. Hey, 535 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 1: we deserve this, So that's that's what they did. At 536 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 1: the time of their crime spree, they were all doing 537 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: very well. They were all three working. They were all 538 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,439 Speaker 1: three in a stable family and home life. Everything was 539 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:56,640 Speaker 1: going going so well. We knew that, you know, these 540 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: three had to be smart enough not to use credit cards. 541 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:01,679 Speaker 1: Would then it start up following more in line up 542 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,919 Speaker 1: there death breats. They're willing to do anything over You 543 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:06,440 Speaker 1: had to believe that they were going to have to 544 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 1: get cash somewhere. Mainly it's like, yo, what do you 545 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: do in order to get more money? What do you 546 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: do in order to get some fake papers? What do 547 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 1: you do in order to get somebody to kind of 548 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: usher you across the border? What's the issues with security 549 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: with going across the border? You know what? What's there's 550 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: a million questions and a lot of them you don't 551 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:24,879 Speaker 1: have answers to, and it causes trepidation and you're just 552 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: you're not sure what it is that you want to do. 553 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:33,400 Speaker 1: It's it's a vacillation. It's not a big old indecisiveness. 554 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,719 Speaker 1: You're not really sure what it is that you should do, 555 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: and it's you know, it's just most of it's just 556 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 1: based out of fear. I can say I'm not ashamed 557 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 1: of it, man, I was afraid. That situation made me 558 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: brave and made me scared. Dylan was blinded by love 559 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: and loyalty for his little brother. It was taking him 560 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,719 Speaker 1: in a completely different direction from the clean life he'd 561 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: been living, and he was about to commit a federal crime. 562 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: We weren't already committed after dimity appealing floor, so to speak. 563 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: We were really committed after that. I mean, it was 564 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 1: just like, you know, I don't think the actually like 565 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: a number, like like, oh, this is how much money 566 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: we need per state. I know Mexico's exchange rates pretty good, 567 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 1: but it's not that good pretty At that point, we 568 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: were already committed. That's not you know. I thought, somehow 569 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: my had that it would be a good idea to 570 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 1: rob some banks and leave the United States. The dopertees 571 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: knew they had little chance of successfully robbing a bank 572 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 1: in Florida. They'd have a better chance in a surrounding state. 573 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: We're going to rob a certain bank that was in Florida. 574 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: But when we got caught speeding there and we banged 575 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: it out with them in the street, it was a 576 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: bad idea to stay in Florida, and when you cross 577 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 1: state lines to confuses them until it gets to a 578 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 1: point where it's federal and then certain states automatically they 579 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 1: don't like cooperating with another one another. You would think 580 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 1: that there'd be some interage andcy cooperation there, and there's 581 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: really not. They really don't like each other, like they 582 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: don't want help from one they don't want to ask 583 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 1: for help. And then like Florida gets piste off is 584 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: we make them look stupid, and then the whole United 585 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,959 Speaker 1: States is not at Florida, like, Yo, not only did 586 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: you born and breathe these fucking kids that are psychotic, 587 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 1: but you let them out of your sight throw into 588 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: that certest bank there like eleven in the morning and 589 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:15,880 Speaker 1: stuff like that. I literally just got my heart back 590 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: in my resting heart, me to you know, fifty eight 591 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: pieces a minute. And I was like, all right, let's 592 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 1: rob a bank now. It was just like that's where 593 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: the money is, that is where we're gonna go get it. 594 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: Boom boom boom. As far as how we picked a bank, 595 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 1: you know, in a in a Walmart parking lot. You 596 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 1: know they had multiple exits and you know entrances and 597 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: there was no cops in the parking lot. You know 598 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: that the action is therey all the like strategical planning 599 00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: that went into it. We looked at one bank and 600 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: there was there was a completly right across street. I 601 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 1: was like, well, we're not gon rob nex one. Things 602 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 1: are moving fast, and Ryan Docherty was starting to process 603 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: the position he put his siblings in. My brother. You know, 604 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: it's just driven by a loyalty towards family that you've 605 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: never seen or experience before. You know, my brother, when 606 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 1: they say that I would die for them, he literally 607 00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,320 Speaker 1: means that, like he would shove me out of the 608 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: way for a bullet. Like my brother would do anything 609 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: for me. And then, uh, he wasn't made for this, 610 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 1: like the Grace and I were. He never had a 611 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: criminal record before. This was a really good person. And 612 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: I really ruined my brother's life and never ruined my 613 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 1: sister's life. And it's just hard to live with. You know, 614 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: it's a double edged sword. You get away, but for 615 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,400 Speaker 1: how long I'll do crazy things? But like, my nerves 616 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 1: aren't good. I mean, just because you're scared of something 617 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: doesn't mean you don't do it. When you rob a bank, 618 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 1: it's kind of impersonal. Right, I'm I'm robbing an entity. 619 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: I'm not robbing you, right, I'm not robbing an individual 620 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 1: having a running shoot out with the police. It's like 621 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: eleven and then you know, robbing a bank it's probably 622 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: like a night. And then riding a motorcycle on one 623 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,240 Speaker 1: tire a hundred forty hours, like I said it and 624 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: a half, you know, how to kind of put it 625 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 1: in the perspective. Yeah, so I was scared to go 626 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: rob that bank, absolutely, But did I have a choice. 627 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: Not that I could see more on that next time. 628 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: The Dougherty Gang is executive produced by Stephanie lie Deecker 629 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: and me Courtney Armstrong, along with Beth Greenwald, Seaun McEwen, 630 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 1: and Joseph Morgan. Editing and sound design is by Jeff Tis, 631 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: mixing by Peter Neah. Additional producing by Chris Graves and 632 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,640 Speaker 1: Jeff Shane. The Docertor Gang is a production of I 633 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts from My 634 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, 635 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.