1 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace bt K Bind Torture Kill. 2 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 1: That's quite a moniker a nickname BTK Bind Torture Kill. 3 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: How did one of the world's most prolific serial killers 4 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: manage to elude police for so long? And how did 5 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:40,480 Speaker 1: this guy, a cruel and sadistic serial killer, lead a 6 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: double life with a wife, a family, a position in 7 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: the church, the works, even a government job. Crime Stories 8 00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace and Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. 9 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us, with me an all 10 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: star panel to break it down and put it back 11 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:17,199 Speaker 1: together again. First of all, doctor Katherine Ramslin, Professor Forensic 12 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:22,399 Speaker 1: Psychology to Sale University and author of serial Killer, The 13 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: Untold Story of Dennis Raider BTK Killer. Daryl Cohen, renowned attorney, 14 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 1: former prosecutor, now defense attorney in the Atlanta jurisdiction. Cloyd 15 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: Steiger thirty six years Seattle PD, twenty two years on 16 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:42,119 Speaker 1: homicide and author of Seattle's Forgotten serial Killer. Gary Jane 17 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: Grant at Cloyd Steiger dot com. Doctor Kendall Crowns, Deputy 18 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 1: Medical Examiner, Travis County, Texas. That's Austin and Nicole parton 19 00:01:50,920 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: Crime Online dot com investigative reporter. But first take a 20 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: listen to Tim Pijo Smith. It was very shocking for 21 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: the officers. When they came up. They found the parents 22 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:05,560 Speaker 1: faced down in their own bedroom, full of clothed, obviously 23 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: strangled bags over their head. The strangled corpse of nine 24 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: year old Joe Junior was in another bedroom, but police 25 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: were still to make another horrific discovery, his eleven year 26 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: old sister, Josephine. Josephine had been put through a different 27 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 1: type of death than the others downstairs, and she was 28 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: obviously alive, put a rope around her neck and over 29 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: some pipes. She was the target, the primary target, I 30 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: believe for this. The other three Ontario children had only 31 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: escaped because they were at school when the killer attacked. Wow, 32 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:54,799 Speaker 1: you were listening to crimes that shook the world, and 33 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,959 Speaker 1: Btks certainly one of them. What's amazing to me is 34 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: how he alluded to police for so long, and when 35 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 1: you're looking at this particular crime, the one we just 36 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: started with, you find that one child, an eleven year 37 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: old little girl police believe, was the actual target and 38 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 1: the rest of the family or seemingly collateral damage. So 39 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: many questions Why did BTK treat eleven year old Josephine differently? 40 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: Why was her motive death modus opera and I different 41 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: from the rest of the family. How did one person 42 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: manage to overpower an entire family, including the dad, subdue them, 43 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: and murder them in order to take his time with 44 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: the eleven year old little girl. This is just the 45 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,040 Speaker 1: tip of the iceberg. I don't believe we will ever 46 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: know the extent of btk's murderers. You know, I want 47 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: to start with doctor Katherine Ramslin, Professor Forensic Psychology to 48 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: Sale University, Pennsylvania. Doctor Ramsselin, thank you for being with us. 49 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: I find it very interesting that he used a completely 50 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: different modus operandi MO when it comes to eleven year 51 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 1: old Josephine, the little girl. Obviously, that's why police thought 52 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:22,360 Speaker 1: she was the target, But why would he switch emos, 53 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: Doctor Ramslin? He actually was not the only target. He 54 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 1: had a mother daughter fantasy and he had targeted Julie 55 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 1: and Josephine together, but he was taken by surprise by 56 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: joseph being home. He didn't expect that to happen, and 57 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 1: so his entire plan was upset. As soon as he 58 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 1: walked in the door. He had to get rid of 59 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 1: Joseph and Joseph Jr. First and then have the mother, 60 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 1: Julie and Josephine. It didn't go the way he expected 61 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: to because he was going to add Dutch both of them, 62 00:04:58,040 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 1: take them in a car and take them up to ab. 63 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 1: None of that worked out. I believe Josephine was actually 64 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 1: I think he thought he had killed those at being earlier. 65 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: When she revived, he then decided to take her to 66 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 1: the basement, and then it became his whole plan switched. 67 00:05:15,279 --> 00:05:18,920 Speaker 1: It became more of a fantasy of having this young 68 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: girl maybe then being the first man to touch her 69 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: in a sexual way, and that was really what grolled 70 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: him at that point. When you say b t K, 71 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated with what you're saying, because in all this 72 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: time I have studied bt K, I never knew he 73 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: had mother daughter fantasies as it relates to his serial killing. 74 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: What was his mother daughter fantasy? But actually this for Blondes, 75 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 1: that was the first thing. But the idea that he 76 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: would have these women to him the south, or a 77 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: mother and a daughter to himself was really just the 78 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:03,160 Speaker 1: sense of having control over them, but also I mean, 79 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: he really never went after another young female again. He 80 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: never went after a child again. So it really wasn't 81 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,760 Speaker 1: about pedophilia. It was really more the combination of a 82 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: mother's daughter. It's just a fantasy that he had. Well, 83 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,919 Speaker 1: that's certainly something for me to think about, you know, 84 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: to Darryl Cohen, former prosecutor, felony prosecutor at what was 85 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,159 Speaker 1: then one of the murder capitals of the world along 86 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 1: with me in Fulton County, Georgia, Inner City Atlanta, Daryl, 87 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: you know you have prosecuted and defended a lot of murders. 88 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: I have prosecuted a lot of murders, including a serial killer, 89 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: including spree killings, mass killings. But Daryl, the pleasure that 90 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 1: BTK seemingly takes in murdering of planning a of course 91 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: Dr Ramsel's the expert on this, but it seems to me, Daryl, 92 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:07,119 Speaker 1: he gets so much pleasure out of actually planning the murders. Nancy, 93 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: even now, I'm furiated by this disgusting piece of Do 94 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: you just want to take him out and just shoot him? 95 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 1: I want to know, do you just want to go 96 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: kill him? I want to torture him. I want to 97 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: do the same thing again. We've got three votes here 98 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: in the studio, and everybody's voting. Just just shoot him. 99 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: I did not vote that because I believe in Lady justice. 100 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 1: But really, Jackie and Brett all Sage shoot him, Nancy. 101 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: I'd like to make sure that he gets a little taste. 102 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: That's what I would like to have, is give him 103 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 1: a little taste. He did a mother you know, dotor Ramslin. Yes, 104 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: I appreciate all of your education and all of your 105 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: hard were you're a psychology professor, but you know what, 106 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: you just totally messed with my head right there, A 107 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: mother daughter murder fantasy. See. I thought I knew everything 108 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: about BTK. I now know how little I know. Okay, 109 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: let me move forward. Take a listen to Crimes that 110 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: Shook the World narrator Tim Pizet. BTK targeted neighborhoods where 111 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: he thought he might find women at home alone. He 112 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,679 Speaker 1: would troll the area. He would find somebody that looked 113 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,679 Speaker 1: right to him, and that's how he would target his victims. 114 00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: Twenty five year old Nancy Fox lived alone, getting home 115 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: late from working two jobs. Part of his protection against 116 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: making mistakes was getting to noise victims gathering intelligence, where 117 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: they live, what kind of car they drive, what time 118 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: they come home, manual in literature, strangulation, hanging. These are 119 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: very slow and agonizing ways to die. Sure, he did 120 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: take victims to the brink of death, let them know 121 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: that they were at the point of death, and that 122 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: he allowed them to come back a little bit nighter. 123 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: That method of allowing the victim to revive goes to 124 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: his playing the role of God. He has within his 125 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: power life and death or another human being. Crime Stories 126 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:33,439 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about bt K, 127 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 1: as he is called, buying torturing kill. That's certainly not 128 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:38,439 Speaker 1: the way you want to go down in history. Your 129 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:42,319 Speaker 1: nickname and the high school annual is BTK buying torture kill. 130 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: And we are hearing right there, how one of his 131 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: modus operandi is to bring the victim to the brink 132 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 1: of death, revive the victim, and I guess to doctor 133 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:59,079 Speaker 1: Katherine Ramslin sexually abusing the victim at the same time, 134 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:01,599 Speaker 1: because I know they're apparently with semen on some of 135 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: the victims. Yeah, he didn't. He only he did not 136 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 1: actually have that mo with every victim. I think there 137 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: was only one that he actually whispered her that he 138 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 1: was the BTK killer. UMMS has then died fairly quickly, 139 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: or in the case of the terrors, he didn't really 140 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: realize how long it was going to help to strangle 141 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: someone was not his intent to bring them back. So 142 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: that's that's kind of a misunderstanding of what was happening. 143 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: And I'm talking about it from what he has told me, 144 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: not from any kind of behavioral analysis or anything. These 145 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,319 Speaker 1: are the things he has said. You'd have to evaluate 146 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:43,199 Speaker 1: whether you believe him or not. But he several victims 147 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: died quickly, more quickly than he expected them to u 148 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: and he wasn't really he didn't. He did not actually 149 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 1: torture victims in the way we think of um some 150 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 1: of the some of the victims who's been held for 151 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: hours and tormented and burns and cut up, and that 152 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: wasn't something he was doing. He was more of a 153 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: psychological torturer. But it didn't last very long, in part 154 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,760 Speaker 1: because he was married with kids, had a job, he 155 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: had social obligations, as he would say, and he had 156 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: only a limited time period. It was to do these things. 157 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: He didn't stop people. He stopped many people, many more 158 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 1: than the victims that he actually had, and he did 159 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,679 Speaker 1: break into homes, he did watch for opportunities, but he 160 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 1: wasn't as good as he claims he was in terms 161 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:32,959 Speaker 1: of knowing his victims. He did not know the oteros 162 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: had a guide dog, or had a dog at all. 163 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: He had no idea about that. There were a number 164 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 1: of mistakes he made, and he was very lucky not 165 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: to have been caught. Okay, now you're scaring me even 166 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,319 Speaker 1: more if I wasn't already scared by your mother daughter 167 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: murder fantasy, and now he said the word which really 168 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: nuts me up, Deployed Steiger, thirty six years of Seattle 169 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 1: PD twenty two years Thomas Side and author. You know what, 170 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: I can beat a criminal forensically. I can trip them 171 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:13,040 Speaker 1: up on their own words. I can analyze clues left behind, 172 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,559 Speaker 1: I can compare finger I can do all that on 173 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,959 Speaker 1: my own. But you know what I can't beat luck, luck, 174 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: luc k when you've got a lucky criminal, much less 175 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: a lucky killer. No, that's something you can't beat. If 176 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: this guy is lucky and he manages to elude a witness, 177 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: or he gets out of the home just in time 178 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: to make it to his church deacon's meeting, or or 179 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: to clock in at work. That is dumb luck and 180 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 1: that's hard to beat. Kloyd Steiger, that is hard to 181 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 1: beat you. I hate a lucky killer. I hate a 182 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: lucky killer. The thing about BTK is this would never 183 00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:01,679 Speaker 1: happen in today's era because just his methods, owned by necessity, 184 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: leave a tremendous amount of forensic evidence. And he would 185 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 1: have been caught long ago in this era. But back 186 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: then those tools weren't available with the detectives. You know. 187 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 1: That leads me to another question. I'm glad you said 188 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: that because to doctor Kendall Crowns, the deputy medical examiner 189 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: joining us out of Travis County, Texas, that's Austin. I wonder, 190 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: doctor Crowns, if they authorities have compared his DNA to 191 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: other unsolved murders and or rapes. How would that work? 192 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: How would that work? What would you just go to CODAS, 193 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: the DNA Data Bank and put it in. I mean 194 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 1: certainly they would have done that, don't you think, doctor Crowns. Yeah, 195 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: I do think they. I think they actually have tried 196 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: to compare him to some other unsolved mysteries and the 197 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: surrounding areas including Oklahoma and North Texas, and so far 198 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:57,959 Speaker 1: heaven found any matches with him. Okay, doctor Katherine Ramslin, 199 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: you've made me leave my tea. Now I'm hitting the 200 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 1: hard stuff to coffee thanks to you and your mother 201 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: daughter Murder fantasy. Guys, we're talking about BTK buying torture Kill. 202 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: And you just heard doctor Ramslin. And what an all 203 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:17,559 Speaker 1: star panel we've got Ramslin, Cohen Steigger Crown, Nicole Parton. 204 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 1: Nicole Parton, we just heard doctor Ramslin mentioned his other life. 205 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: He is and you know what I should have been 206 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: suspicious day one. He's a dog catcher who wants to 207 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: catch dogs. I mean, you've seen hydre One Dalmatian, as 208 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: you've seen every Disney movie there is about dogcatchers, Beethoven 209 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 1: for example. Who are these people that want to catch 210 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: dogs and then put them in the pound ultimately to 211 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:52,120 Speaker 1: euthanize them. He's a dogcatcher with a family. What more 212 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 1: do we know, Nicole Parton, about Dennis Rader, also known 213 00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: as Buying Torture Kill, one of the most prolific serial 214 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: killers to ever want the face of this earth. Go ahead, 215 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: and Nicole, what do we know about the guy we 216 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: know that if he was your next door neighbor, you 217 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: would think he was a normal, kind family man. He 218 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: was the president of the Deacons Association at his church. 219 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: Oh Lord, he was known. He was known as a 220 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 1: tremendous leader with the boy Scouts. Oh, dear Lord in Heaven, 221 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: both of my children are Scouts. I wish you hadn't 222 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: told me that. Go ahead. He would actually leave Scout meetings. 223 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: One of the killings happened during a Scout meeting. He left, 224 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: performed the murder, went back to the meeting as though 225 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: nothing happened. So what wait, I'm going to circle back 226 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: to you right there, Daryl Cohen, did you hear what 227 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: Nicoleparton just said. Can you imagine his oh so pleased 228 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: with himself leaving the Scout meeting and the Scout meetings 229 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 1: go from like seven thirty to nine or nine fifteen 230 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: on a weeknight, I might add, leaving the Scout meeting. 231 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: And he's one of the leaders, Darryll. I don't know 232 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: if it was this way then, but now you have 233 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: to have multiple leaders. You can't just have one leader 234 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: there with all the new rules set in place, Thank Heaven, 235 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 1: My husband is a leader, well, a volunteer, and I'm 236 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: a volunteer, so I'm with Lucy and her Scout meeting. 237 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: John David has his dad and sometimes we switch it up. 238 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: But can you imagine Darryl. He is thrill of leaving 239 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: the Scout meeting, committing a murder and then getting back 240 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: to the Scout meeting before it was over. Nancy, I 241 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: cannot get in this man's head. I would have been 242 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: delighted to prosecute him, but getting into his head the 243 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: elation that he apparently showed from I'm a great Scout 244 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: leader to I Am going to be a diabolical, carefully 245 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: planning murderer and torturer after binding and then I'm going 246 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: back to the Scout meeting. It's a man. You just 247 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: see him. Very often they're held in school classrooms or 248 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 1: in church wreck centers. I could just see him right 249 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: now getting out of his vehicle and walking across the 250 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: parking lot and going back into the Scout meeting where 251 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 1: all the little boys are in there, and looking down 252 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 1: at his hands and wondering if he got all the 253 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:23,879 Speaker 1: blood off. Jackie, you have a really interesting sound cut 254 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: to play for me. Take a listen to this guys. 255 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: Six years after the murder of Marine Hedge, another body 256 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: was found. Sixty two year old Dolores Davis was enjoying 257 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,160 Speaker 1: her retirement in a house on the outskirts of town. 258 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:46,160 Speaker 1: As Missus Davis slept, someone held a concrete block through 259 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 1: the glass door of her home. Sounds like a bomb probably, 260 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: And I think she jumped out of bed, and you know, 261 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: you're trying to get your bearings, figure out what and on. 262 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 1: And here's this animal standing there. And then he went 263 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 1: ahead and strangled her with her pantyhose. Police discovered the 264 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 1: body under this bridge, ten miles north of Wichita, but 265 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: they didn't know just how close the killer was. Bt 266 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 1: K had set up a complex alibi to ensure he 267 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: would not become a suspect. It was about a mile 268 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:25,959 Speaker 1: and a half away from his house. It set up 269 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: that he was on a scouting trip because it was 270 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:29,640 Speaker 1: close to his house, so he thought he was too 271 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: close to home that he thought that he might become 272 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: a suspect. Wow, even used a scout out. In Time 273 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace, bt K bide torture and kill. 274 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: How did he do it? That's what we're talking about 275 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: right now. How did he become unapprehended one of the 276 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 1: most prolific serial killers ever. You know, Back to doctor 277 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 1: Katherine Ramsland, professor forensic psychology to Sailed University in Pennsylvania, 278 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: an author of serial Killer, The Untold Story of Dennis Rader, 279 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: the BTK Killer. I also did not know, as much 280 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: as I have studied this case, how he differed, how 281 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:30,680 Speaker 1: he varied his ms. Did I just understand correctly that 282 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 1: he dumped a body under a bridge and there were 283 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 1: two women that he actually took out of the house 284 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: in part because he had heard about the FBI profilers 285 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 1: coming in and he wanted to change it different. Oh man, 286 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:48,239 Speaker 1: you know, Ramsland, you are really something because you just 287 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:50,879 Speaker 1: said he wanted to just do something different. That's the 288 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 1: way Jackie sometimes will change up her outfit or her hair. 289 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 1: I just wanted to do something different. But you know 290 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,640 Speaker 1: what you write in his mind dumping the bodies under 291 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,199 Speaker 1: the bridge, which was just oh, I'll do something different 292 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 1: this time, just to you know, screw up the FBI 293 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 1: profiler's head. Well, he actually wasn't going to put her 294 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: under a bridge. It was a foggy raineye like snowy night. 295 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 1: He was looking for an abandoned barn because that was 296 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 1: part of his fantasy. He wanted to take her there 297 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: and he couldn't find it, so he finally just put 298 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: her under the bridge in the culvert. So that wasn't 299 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 1: the plan. Again, many of his plans did not work 300 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: out the way he expected them to. The other one 301 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,360 Speaker 1: marine hedge. He took out of her house and took 302 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: her to his church where he had taped up plastic 303 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: around the windows, and he wanted to take pictures of 304 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 1: her body in other women's underwear that he had stolen, 305 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:52,240 Speaker 1: and then he baked her by so he is she dead? 306 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 1: Her alive? When he takes her to the church, he 307 00:20:54,920 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 1: was dead, Okay, dead, So he wants to address her 308 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:06,159 Speaker 1: dead body. Yes, and they put another lady stolen underwear 309 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: on the dead body. Yes. You know, sometimes I think 310 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: I've seen it all, and then I meet somebody no offense, 311 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: doctor Ramslin, like doctor Katherine Ramslin, and I learn I 312 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 1: am at the tip of the iceberg. Okay, go ahead, 313 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: doctor Ramslin, because I really want to hear this. So 314 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: he takes the dead body to the church. The church 315 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: plastics up the windows. He has a polaroid camera. He 316 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: poses the body in the underwear that he prefers because 317 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,239 Speaker 1: he has stolen it from other women, and he has 318 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: the whole collection of this stuff and he poses it 319 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,920 Speaker 1: and takes these pictures. When he's done, he takes her 320 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 1: body and dumps it into a ditch that's actually pretty 321 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 1: close to the corpse of a dog that he himself 322 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: didn't see. And then with Dolores Davis, he actually wanted 323 00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: to take her to a barn because his ultimate fantasy 324 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: was to work on a body inside a barn. They 325 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 1: had a whole fantasy, very complex fantasy. That's about the 326 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:11,640 Speaker 1: fourth time you've mentioned dotor Ramsland a fantasy a BTK 327 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: by torture killed dogcatcher, dnnish writer barn. What's with him 328 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 1: and the barn? Well isn't a Martin perssee? It was 329 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: he was influenced by HH Holmes in the Murder Castle 330 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 1: at Chicago. But there are no there are no hotels 331 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 1: like that in Wichita. So he fantasized his torture stuff 332 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: inside a barn in one of the abandoned barns in 333 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: the country rooms. Nicole Barton joining me Crime Online dot 334 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 1: Com investigative reporter Nicole, I'm sorry, I haven't already gotten 335 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:47,919 Speaker 1: to you. But listening to Katherine Ramsland informs me and 336 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:52,159 Speaker 1: scares me at the same time. And she ain't. Nicole 337 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 1: knows a lot about this because she has actually spoken 338 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: to BTK. So Nicole parton, give me a rundown, a 339 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: fingernail sketch of what we suspect BTK did. How many victims? 340 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: But I also want to hear about him. Let's start 341 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: with him. What do we know about him? We know 342 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 1: he was a family man. His daughter speaks of Christmas 343 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: time with her father, trimming the Christmas tree by rides 344 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:30,199 Speaker 1: in the afternoon. She talks about him being all around 345 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: great guy that she never would have imagined this. His 346 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: co workers say he was a normal guy, come to work, 347 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 1: never missed the day, never missed a Sunday morning church service. 348 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 1: He was an ordinary man, not what we think of 349 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: a serial killer. And we also know that he would 350 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: would often walk by one of the one of the 351 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 1: ladies that he killed. His last victim, Dolores Davis, lived 352 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 1: not too far from him, and in the afternoons he 353 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,120 Speaker 1: would take his daughter for a stroll and they would 354 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 1: weigh but Dolores on her front porch and say hi 355 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: and speak to the neighbor a friendly manner, and everyone 356 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,919 Speaker 1: spoke of him as a super nice guy. I'm just 357 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: trying to absorb what you just said, Nicol Parton, and 358 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 1: I'm sure you're correct, but it flies in the face 359 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 1: of almost all our preconceived notions regarding serial killers. And 360 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 1: the reason I say serial killers is because there's so 361 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: much planning and a forethought to it. It's not like 362 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: a murder that occurs at a bar. You get mad, 363 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 1: you pull your gun, bam. A serial killer plans the 364 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: next killing. They're like a predator, Like they're like a 365 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: wolf roaming around your community, your neighborhood, and they're sneaking 366 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: around trying to find your pet in the backyard or 367 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 1: a rabbit or whatever they can find. They are the 368 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 1: predator and the victims are the prey. To Chloyd Steiger, 369 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 1: author Seattle's Forgotten serial Killer, and Gary Jane Grant, Cloyd, 370 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,880 Speaker 1: you don't normally think of a serial killer such as 371 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:12,880 Speaker 1: Ted Bundy or Wayne Gacy or a hell Ramrez as 372 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:17,399 Speaker 1: having a normal domestic family life the way Innicle Parton 373 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: is describing it. Why Cloyd, Well, you know you you 374 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: don't necessarily hear that. But if you talk to the 375 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 1: people that knew those those killers, they would say he 376 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: just was a normal guy pretty much, you don't live 377 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: for the party kind of guy you never can tell 378 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 1: five of the party. Yeah, that's what they would say. 379 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: Who Ever said a serial killer was the life of 380 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:40,880 Speaker 1: the party, people that don't know he was, they knew 381 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: him outside that killer. I've actually got one gay exactly 382 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: because um, isn't it correct? To doctor Katherine Ramsland, Gayce 383 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 1: was the life of the party. He played a clown 384 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,199 Speaker 1: at children's birthday part parties. But other than Gacy, I 385 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: don't really remember serial killers ever having been described as 386 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: gregarious or the life of the party. I think Ted 387 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 1: Bundy was pretty charismatic. People are like, dude, that's the 388 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 1: life of the party so much. But here that's true. 389 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: The two of you are right. Bundy was very charismatic. Somehow, 390 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: when I look at Raid I don't see charisma. I mean, 391 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: I don't see what you guys are talking about. But okay, 392 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: I accept it. You're right, guys. I want you to 393 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 1: take another Listen to Tim Bijo Smith in Crimes That 394 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: Shook the World. This is your cup. Five pleas hear 395 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: the killer's voice for the first time. Three coach to 396 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 1: his narcissism and need for attention. Here I am. I'm 397 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:57,679 Speaker 1: calling you to let you know that I did it 398 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 1: and you still can't catch her off at LAE rushed 399 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,440 Speaker 1: to the call box, but when they got that Lakella 400 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 1: was gone. It's part of his power, It's part of 401 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: his game that he's playing with the police. Two months later, 402 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: BTK made his next move. A package arrived at this 403 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,919 Speaker 1: Wichita TV station. It was a package that contained not 404 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: only a letter, but a poem, and I have a 405 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,679 Speaker 1: portion of the poem here. It was titled, Oh death 406 00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 1: to Nancy. What is this that I see cold icy 407 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: hands taking hold of me? For death has come. You 408 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,639 Speaker 1: all can see Hell has opened up its gate to 409 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 1: trick me. And then it's signed BTK. Okay. Mom train 410 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 1: of thought was that he is taunting. Part of the 411 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: pleasure he takes in murders is taunting the victim's family. 412 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:05,359 Speaker 1: He did that. He haunted police and newspapers, luring them 413 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 1: along the garden path, taunting them in the sense that 414 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:29,199 Speaker 1: he could outsmart them. Crime stories with Nancy Grace, we 415 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: are talking about Dennis Raider bind torture kill is his nickname. 416 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: Joining me, Doctor Kendall Crowns is a renowned medical examiner, 417 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: the Deputy Medical Examiner in Travis County, Texas, that is Austin, 418 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: doctor Crowns. Before I get to your unique connection to BTK, 419 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: let me ask you, other than what BTK has told 420 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: Doctor Ramsland, how would we be able to look at 421 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 1: a body and determine that the victim had been nearly murdered, 422 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: for instance, asphyxiated and then brought back, allowed to breathe 423 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 1: be torture for a while, then nearly murdered, then brought 424 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: back and then finally killed. Can you tell that by 425 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: looking at the body? Or do we have to take 426 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 1: his word for it, because I'd certainly take that with 427 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: a box of salt. So they're with people that are 428 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 1: near strangulations, they'll often get particular hemorrhages, which are these 429 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: little pinpoint hemorrhages all over the face and eyes, and 430 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: those are often caused by incomplete compression of the vessels 431 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: of the neck. But you also see that in typical 432 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: strangulations where the person is held and then they are 433 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 1: completely killed with no torture aspect to it. So it's 434 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: not one hundred percent to know when you see particular 435 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: hemorrhages that there was element of them coming back and 436 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: then being strangled again. So it really does come down 437 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 1: to just taking his word for it, which is unfortunately. 438 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: I saw it also in the Core delaying killer who 439 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: kidnapped who was just writing by I think on the Interstate, 440 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 1: saw two little children at an above ground pool in 441 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: their backyard. This in the middle of very very rural, 442 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: very dense forest. Happened to get a glimpse of these 443 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: children from the Interstate, circled back, abducted Dylan and Shasta 444 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: Gronee the way I recall the case, and we'll do 445 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: that over and over and over with the little boy Dylan, 446 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: and we knew that because the sister Shasta divulged it. 447 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 1: But I see what you're saying, doctor Kendall Crowns, because 448 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: once you ultimately asphyxiate the victim and you get the 449 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: particular hemorrhages, you can't tell were they there during torture 450 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 1: or were they the result of the actual strangulation. You know, 451 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: doctor Kendall Crown's is from the same hometown as BTK 452 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: buying torture kill. In fact, BTK was a student of 453 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: doctor Crown's father, who taught criminal justice at Witchtaw State. 454 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: And I believe your father had a theory that BTK 455 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: was one of the students, did he not, and then 456 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 1: he turned out to be correct. Yeah, that's correct, Nancy. 457 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: My dad always felt the way that it was methodical, 458 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 1: how it seemed planned out, and then his taunting. He 459 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 1: always thought it was someone that was possibly involved with 460 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: the law enforcement field or had a background in criminal justice. 461 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 1: And because the BTK had left evidence at the libraries 462 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:55,320 Speaker 1: and at Witchtow State, my dad theorized that he could 463 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 1: be a criminal justice student, and of course he was 464 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: proved right years later. You know, not only did he 465 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: leave evidence, he sent letters to the Witchita Eagle claiming 466 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 1: credit for the murder of twenty eight year old Vicki 467 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: Weisurely in nineteen eighty six. The investigators knew the letter 468 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: was legitimate. He also would leave He left a package 469 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 1: in a truck at which to a hardware store, and 470 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: even though we're security cameras, you couldn't really identify the 471 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 1: person that did it. He sent messages in serial boxes 472 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:38,560 Speaker 1: marked b t K. He sent a box with a 473 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: bound and hung doll in a reference to one of 474 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: his victims. But we actually have sound of BTK, and 475 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: I want you to hear BTK. This is your cut 476 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 1: eighteen Jackie from Oxygen Snap. This is BTK killer Dennis 477 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: Rader in his own words. You know, they talked to 478 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: me about, uh, you know, giving the car or whatever. Money. 479 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 1: I guess he didn't have every much money. And there 480 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: I realized that, you know, I was already I didn't 481 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 1: have a mask on everything. They already could id me, 482 00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: and made made a decision to go ahead and put 483 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 1: him down, I guess or strangling. I had never strangled 484 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: anyone before, so I really don't know how much pressure 485 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 1: you had to put on a person or how long 486 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 1: it would take A strangled missus Oltarrell and she went 487 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: out or passed out. I thought she was dead. She 488 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: passed out, and I strangled uh Josephine. She passed out 489 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 1: or I thought she was dead, and then I went 490 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 1: over and put U and then put a bag on. 491 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: Junior said, you are hearing bt K in court and 492 00:33:55,720 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 1: he is so um calm and so analytical the way 493 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 1: he is describing why he committed the murders. But I 494 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,960 Speaker 1: really don't think there's there was any alternative. Once you 495 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 1: go into a home the way he did, the ending 496 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:17,400 Speaker 1: had to be for him anyway. A murder Let's hear 497 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,720 Speaker 1: cut twenty plays Dennis Writer BTK in his own words, 498 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 1: Josephine had woke back up. I took her to the 499 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: basement and eventually hunk her. I has some sexual fantasies, 500 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: and that was after she was hung. Went through the 501 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: house kind of cleaned it up. It's called the right 502 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 1: hand e earle. You go from a river room, picked 503 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 1: everything up. I think I took mister or Carroll's watch there. 504 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 1: I guess I took a radio. I had forgot about that, 505 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 1: but apparently I took a radio. You are hearing bt 506 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 1: K in his own words to doctor Catherine Ramslin, who 507 00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,400 Speaker 1: has literally written the book serial Killer, the Untold Story 508 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: of Dennis Writer the BTJ Killer, Catherine, I'm having a 509 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: hard time reconciling that he had a wife and a 510 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,600 Speaker 1: family and a job in a position within the community 511 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: with his double life as a serial killer. What exactly 512 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 1: was the sex fantasy that he wanted to live out 513 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: with all of his victims. But first of all, he 514 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,680 Speaker 1: describes himself as a good man who did some bad things, 515 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 1: so he fakes predominantly, he's a pretty good guy. His 516 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: fantasy life came from when he was a teenager, and 517 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:42,239 Speaker 1: actually taking the radio from the Ota house was a 518 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,240 Speaker 1: nod to the Clutter murders, which became in called Blood 519 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,839 Speaker 1: Trivica Ponti's book, because when he was fifteen, he heard 520 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:52,359 Speaker 1: the news over the radio and the fact that they 521 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: were bound with rope was sexually exciting to him. For him, 522 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,399 Speaker 1: it's all about binding, and even hanging one of these 523 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:05,279 Speaker 1: victims from a pipe was what he would do to himself. 524 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 1: He would hang himself in autoerotic activities, so all of 525 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,720 Speaker 1: this kind of flowed into what he was also thinking 526 00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:17,720 Speaker 1: about for victims. It was all about bondage and taking 527 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 1: oxygen away and feeling dominant over them. So as part 528 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:26,359 Speaker 1: of his own sex gratification, he would hang himself, and 529 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:32,359 Speaker 1: therefore he transposed that onto his murder victims' asphyxiating them 530 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 1: pretty much. Yeah, I mean, even when the police took 531 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 1: found all his dash of photos and drawings and whatnot, 532 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:42,720 Speaker 1: they found all these polaroids. He actually probably originated the selfie. 533 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: He had a remote controlled polaroid camera where he would 534 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:50,799 Speaker 1: take pictures of himself, burying himself, wrapping himself in plastic, 535 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 1: hanging himself upside down, right side up, in all different 536 00:36:54,920 --> 00:37:01,279 Speaker 1: positions because bondage was really around him. How did his 537 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 1: wife not know what was going on down the basement, 538 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,120 Speaker 1: Doctor Ramslin. He didn't do it in the face. He 539 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,720 Speaker 1: went out at the abandoned properties. He went under bridges, 540 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:15,400 Speaker 1: in which tall he found all kinds of places for 541 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,040 Speaker 1: doing it. He went into his parents' home and did 542 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,880 Speaker 1: it in their basement. But his wife, he claims, she 543 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 1: caught him twice wearing her slip and doing auto erotic activity. 544 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 1: She says she did not. I'm a little more concerned 545 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: about hanging himself and wrapping himself in plastic under a bridge, 546 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 1: now wearing a lady's slip. You know I would do. 547 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,600 Speaker 1: There were kids of him, grapps completely and plastic, buried 548 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,240 Speaker 1: in a sand pit. What I don't understand. That's why 549 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 1: this guy could not get the death penalty. But that 550 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 1: is the government's decision in that jurisdiction. The father of 551 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 1: two Dennis Raiders serving one hundred seventy five years in 552 00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:01,759 Speaker 1: president El Dorado Correctional Facility, Prospect Township, Kansas, for the 553 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:11,400 Speaker 1: murders and still garnering fame and singlephants and groupies. Nancy 554 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: Grace Crime Story signing off Goodbye friend,