WEBVTT - Waiting For a Tipping Point 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.800 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to WOKP Daily with Meet 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:19.680 your Girl Danielle Moody. Recording from the Home Bunker, Folks, 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:24.840 I want to start off today's show with my thoughts 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:33.000 on what is transpired most recently in Gaza, which is 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:40.560 the killing of seven aid workers from the World Central Kitchen, 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:46.280 Jose Andreas's global humanitarian food organization that has been aiding 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:51.960 areas of conflict, areas that have been destroyed from hurricanes 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:57.280 and tornadoes and the like. And you know, today I 0:00:57.400 --> 0:00:59.480 Jonathan is back on the show, and I ask him 0:00:59.480 --> 0:01:02.160 towards the end of our interview about his thoughts, and 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:05.320 we're going to have a longer conversation about it next week. 0:01:05.400 --> 0:01:10.240 But you know, I ended my interview with Jonathan by 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:14.919 saying that we always find ourselves looking for a tipping 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:20.080 point moment, looking for a moment where people really see 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:29.160 what is happening right, and that decisions are made based 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:33.559 on the vileness right, like one of the reasons during 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:39.640 the height of the Civil rights movement to video and 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:46.200 to put on television the brutality that surrounded segregation and 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:55.480 the Jim Crow era. Those images began to change people's 0:01:55.520 --> 0:02:01.280 hearts and minds. You know, when you're seeing children be brutalized, 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:04.680 people be brutalized with fire hoses, and the pressure and 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:10.480 the beatings and the humiliation and the degradation and all 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:18.600 of those things, it began to change the course of history. Similarly, 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:28.000 I wonder what will happen following the purposeful killing because 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:33.480 what we know and what Joseandreas said recently in his 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:36.480 ap ed that if you have not read, I encourage 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:41.639 you all to read Let People Eat, because it is 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:48.440 heartbreaking and honest about food being used as a weapon. Right, 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:55.680 and I think that the world has had enough of 0:02:55.840 --> 0:03:02.480 giving Netanyahu and the if the benefit of the doubt. 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:08.840 Thirty two thousand plus people are dead, more than half 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:14.639 of them being children. People are being starved to death, 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:22.240 medicine being denied, and now this is one in a 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:32.560 series of aid workers who have been killed. And Netniyahu's 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:39.240 response is just so fucking depraved when he says, well, 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:44.560 you know, that's what happens in war. No, actually, that 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:48.600 isn't what happens in war, because there are rules of 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:56.000 engagement for a fucking reason. Absolutely, war is heinous. But 0:03:56.400 --> 0:04:01.120 as I listen to an analyst recently, on cable news, say, 0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:06.360 but we're not supposed to be dealing with a dictator 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:10.440 or a head of a terrorist organization. This is the 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:14.800 president of a supposed democracy where you are supposed to 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:19.960 follow rules and regulations about how you engage. But that's 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:23.720 not what's happening. So why do we keep giving this 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:27.520 motherfucker the benefit of the doubt when we know that 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:34.039 his heart is calloused, as is the hearts of the 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:40.200 people that are inside of that cannesse it. So when 0:04:40.240 --> 0:04:45.400 you start to see, as they don't show on regular news, 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:49.760 thousands of people emptying into the streets in Israel demanding 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:59.680 his fucking resignation because they don't want this, because what 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:04.640 he he is doing is honestly shifting the world's view 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:15.880 on this country, and that's never a good thing. You 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:23.760 know what jose Andres says towards the end of his 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:28.640 let people Eat up ed in the New York Times, 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:41.000 is this that really just got me? The peoples of 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:44.680 the Mediterranean and Middle East, regardless of ethnicity and religion, 0:05:44.760 --> 0:05:48.440 share a culture that values food as a powerful statement 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:52.040 of humanity and hospitality, of our shared hope for a 0:05:52.120 --> 0:05:56.320 better tomorrow. There's a reason at this special time of year. 0:05:56.839 --> 0:06:00.680 Christians make Easter eggs. Muslims eat an egg at if 0:06:00.720 --> 0:06:03.839 Tar dinners, and an egg sits on the Sator plate. 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:09.560 This symbol of life and hope reborn in spring extends 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:14.160 across religions and cultures. I have been a stranger at 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:18.719 Sator dinners. I have heard the ancient Passover stories about 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:22.520 being a stranger in the land of Egypt, the commandment 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:26.960 to remember with a feast before you, that the children 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:30.919 of Israel were once slaves. It is not a sign 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:35.240 of weakness to feed strangers, It is a sign of strength. 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:39.320 The people of Israel need to remember, at this darkest 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:47.440 hour what strength truly looks like. I leave that with 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:53.760 you all today because I think, in this moment of 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:59.160 great darkness that we are all experiencing in this country, 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:07.640 in Gaza, in Israel, in the Congo, in Ukraine, around 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:11.560 the world, in the nations, that we don't lift up 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:21.400 to a spotlight, that we are being fed a false image, 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:28.760 an idea of what strength and power looks like. And 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:35.960 because people find themselves so desperate, they are consuming it, 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:42.120 knowing that it will never fill them. When it is darkest, 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:53.720 we must choose the light and be the light. Coming 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:58.000 up next, my conversation with our friend, our in house doctor, 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:07.960 doctor Jonathan Metzel. Folks, I am so excited to welcome 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:13.720 back our world traveler, doctor Jonathan Metzel, who has been 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:18.040 on the road selling his new book and having a conversation, 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:22.520 starting conversations about what we've become his new book, which 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:24.920 is out now. If you guys have not gotten it yet, 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:29.240 you need to get this book and be in conversation. Jonathan, 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:32.400 welcome back. Tell us how the tour has been. How, 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:35.479 you know, because you're out there talking to real Americans, 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:38.320 not like me, because you know, according to corporate media, 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:40.439 I'm not a real American. But you're out there talking 0:08:40.440 --> 0:08:43.280 to real Americans. So what have you been hearing? 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:48.840 Well, it's been honestly incredible and powerful, as you know, 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:50.600 because we have been talking about this for a long 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:53.560 time and also in our great conversation in Brooklyn. You know, 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:56.679 this isn't the kind of book that, like you can 0:08:56.720 --> 0:08:59.400 summarize in three sentences, and so it's been really great 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:02.839 to get out there and talk about issues of race 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:07.200 and gun violence and mental illness and democracy, which are 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:09.440 all the themes that the book kind of revolves around. 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:12.800 And I've just been honored and privileged to go to 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:16.440 really to be let into some incredible conversations. I was 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:19.920 in Pittsburgh yesterday and we had a morning kind of 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:25.199 roundtable with gun violence prevention groups from across Pittsburgh. People 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:29.320 were there who were working with people who were It 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:35.400 was really interesting working with in gun violence prevention in Pittsburgh, 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:38.400 working with people who are just being incarcerated and we're 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:42.120 just getting kind of let out. And they were saying that, 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:45.920 like people were going into into prison thinking that like 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:48.520 the gun situation was one thing, and then then when 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.480 they come out ten years later, it's just so much 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:53.720 worse than when they went in because there's so many 0:09:53.720 --> 0:09:57.559 more guns, and the pandemicum funded everything, and there's so 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:00.880 much more polarization, and so really talking to people on 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:03.720 the ground about this stuff, about what it means, it's just, 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:06.040 you know, it's the honor of writing a book like 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:08.760 this and so on doing that. I'll be in Louisville 0:10:08.880 --> 0:10:11.880 next week, in Seattle and a couple of other stops. 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:14.440 So really, I mean, to me, that's the great part 0:10:14.440 --> 0:10:18.080 of spending five or six years working on a project 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:20.520 is then you get to actually talk about what it 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:21.760 means in the real world. 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:24.880 Yeah, And I mean, I love that, and I think 0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:27.720 that what an interesting perspective to be talking to people 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:32.559 that are were formally incarcerated and their experience going in 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:35.160 with the world being one way and coming out with 0:10:35.200 --> 0:10:38.079 it being a completely other way. I'm sure there are 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:42.600 so many different perspectives that are of value. And I think, 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:46.720 you know, unfortunately in this country, we're just going to 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:49.840 continue talking about guns because they don't ever seem to 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:54.040 be going anywhere, and the problem seems to continue to 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:58.199 get worse. And you know, I'm from Long Island, New York, 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:01.439 and where I have grown up, I've told you, out 0:11:01.520 --> 0:11:05.920 east on Long Island in Suffolk County has become incredibly red. 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:08.560 It was not incredibly red when I was when I 0:11:08.679 --> 0:11:12.200 was growing up, And you know, I see more pickup 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:16.640 trucks and I with you know, gun paraphernalia on the 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:19.120 back of it than I ever did my entire life 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:24.880 of growing up. And so there is this sense of 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:30.760 fear that I have in certain in certain areas that 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:34.800 I didn't before like and that's coming as being you know, 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:39.080 a black woman going to a school that was you know, 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:41.360 and living in neighborhoods that were like ninety six and 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:49.040 ninety seven percent white. But it is this greater relationship, 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:51.360 I guess, Jonathan, is a question. There seems to be 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:56.400 a deeper relationship almost that is being forged between people 0:11:56.720 --> 0:12:02.000 and their guns, particularly the new groups of people who 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:06.400 were not quote unquote traditional gun owners that now see, well, 0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:08.840 if everybody else has one, I need to have one too. 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:12.000 No, it's a conscious market. I mean, that was the 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:13.960 talk one of the talks I gave in Pittsburgh yesterday. 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:16.600 I gave a couple of talks, but one was just 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:20.720 about the way that that market is created and fostered 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:26.320 by using fear. And so, for example, after the murder 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:30.520 of George Floyd, Black and Latino Americans were specifically targeted 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:34.480 by gun advertisers basically saying, the cops are going to 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:36.760 you need a gun or you're going to end up 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:40.640 like George Floyd or something like that. After October seventh, 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:44.240 Jewish Americans were targeted saying the world is going to 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:46.000 turn on you and you don't want it. You need 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:48.680 to be armed. And so basically it's this politics of 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:52.400 fear that then puts guns into that place. What I 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:55.040 heard from some of these, like people who were working 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:58.360 with what's the word for people who were incarcerated and 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:02.280 then just got out newly unincarcerated. I'm not quite sure. 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:05.880 I want to get a right to let me google it. 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:08.360 Yeah, but what they were saying was that when they 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:10.120 went in prison, like you actually had to work to 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:12.000 get a gun, and now a ten year old can 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:14.920 get a gun. And so just the idea of just 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:16.880 kind of how many more guns And a lot of 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:20.800 the people who were the violence for prevention people also 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:22.559 told me that all the rules went out the window 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:25.320 during the pandemic, which was like when they started seeing 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:28.240 many more things. And so in a way, guns become 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:35.080 on one hand, guns become they've become like your form 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:38.200 of self protection when the world's going to shit, and 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:40.280 it's it's hard because, as I've been saying for like 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:43.880 months here, then the argument of let's all put our 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:46.240 name in a government database and trust each other and 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:48.920 common sense public health, it's just not a convincing argument 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:52.040 for people. And so I do worry that like Trump 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:54.840 is really speaking to this fear, and Biden isn't like 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:56.800 Trump is saying, like everybody needs a gun because the 0:13:56.840 --> 0:13:59.199 world is terrifying, and I'm creating the. 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:02.800 Terror returning citizen. 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:10.080 Returning thank you. Yeah yeah, that was that's right, thank you. Yeah. 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:12.600 But so that's part of it. But then the other, 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:15.840 I think, to me, the other, like the other bullshit 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:18.040 part of this. Honestly, I just keep thinking because I'm 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:20.520 I want to write a new op ed and I'm 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:22.640 just I can't figure out how to start it. But like, 0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:26.120 the whole gun logic right now is like the good 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:28.920 guys need guns because the bad guys have guns or 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:29.720 something like that. 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:32.920 I mean, that's been the I mean, I know, I 0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:35.120 feel like that has been the logic, right. 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:37.960 But like the crazy thing is how the good guy 0:14:38.080 --> 0:14:41.080 gun market is creating the bad guy gun market. Like 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:43.720 the issue that people aren't thinking about is how like 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:45.920 those two things. And so we've known for a long 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:48.440 time there's this thing called the Iron pipeline where like 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:52.880 states with tight gun regulations, people who are going to 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:54.920 commit crimes they just go to red states and buy 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:58.320 their guns and come back. So because anybody can buy 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:01.040 a gun in a lot of these states, and so 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:04.280 and there's this this whole funnel of like guns that 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:07.320 started out as quote unquote legal guns that then become 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:10.480 illegal guns. And the other thing, of course is like 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:16.280 many mass shooters are legal gun owners. But the thing 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:19.680 is like Republicans now use this thing of like crime. 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:22.320 They're trying to like hang this around the neck of 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:24.920 the Democrats as if like crime is something that's all 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:28.680 about policing. But really the gun market is creating so 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:34.040 much crime, and it's just like crazy because they're creating 0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:36.080 the problem that then they I mean, the Democrats, as 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:39.200 you know from my book, are more than more than 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:41.560 to blame for a lot of this stuff. But in 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:44.480 this particular issue, I'll give an example. Yesterday in Tennessee, 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:49.280 there was a bill passed by a great Democratic state 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:53.720 legislator that was trying to ban what are called straw purchases, 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:55.920 which is like the most obvious thing in the world. 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:59.600 People go buy guns at a gun show, they come out, 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:02.080 they come outside, and then then they give them or 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:04.200 sell them to people who are not allowed to have guns. 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:06.240 And there's a lot of data that shows that these 0:16:06.240 --> 0:16:09.600 straw purchases, those guns then lead to a lot of crimes. 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:13.400 So the Democrats tried to like regulate straw purchases, which 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:17.080 we do like in Alabama, and Florida and every blue state, 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:20.600 and the Republicans here blocked it. So they're literally like 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:24.480 blocking the bills that are going to then allow guns 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:27.840 to then become quote unquote illegal guns. And so this 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:31.360 whole idea of like the legal versus illegal gun is 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:33.880 just to me, it's I don't want to say it's 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:35.720 a red herring, but it's like a problem that the 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:39.640 Republicans are creating and then trying to have the Democrats 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:41.640 own it by then saying you're loose on crime. 0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:44.760 I don't even think so I'll go one step further 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:47.680 because I don't even think that the entire strategy is 0:16:47.720 --> 0:16:50.479 wrapped around creating a problem that then you want Democrats 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:54.600 to own. I think that Republicans are purposefully creating a 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:59.640 problem that then will create the pathway for an authoritarian exactly. 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:02.840 So if you so, it isn't so. I don't even 0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:04.920 think that. It's just like, oh, well, then we want 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:08.120 to make this Joe Biden's problem. It's like, no, you 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:12.600 create the conditions, you create the healthscape, and then you say, oh, 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:15.199 but I have this solution, and the solution happens to 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:16.960 be this one man that is going to make all 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:20.560 of your nightmares, you know, into fairy tales, right, Like, 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:23.960 that's what it is that they're you know that they're creating, 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:27.840 because it's a it's obscene, right Like, if you are 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:32.800 supposedly about law and order and you're saying, oh, well, 0:17:32.840 --> 0:17:37.199 only people that have you know, the legal ability to 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:39.880 have guns should have access to guns, then why wouldn't 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:42.800 you go ahead and vote for a measure that makes 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:45.479 it difficult for people who are not supposed to have 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:48.160 guns to have guns because you don't actually care who 0:17:48.240 --> 0:17:51.240 has a gun because you think everyone should have a gun, right, 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:55.400 And then you'll create the conditions that escalate violence, that 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:58.240 then get people into a whipped up frenzy of fear 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:00.800 that then they believe that this one person can come 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:01.719 in and save them. 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:09.320 And also it creates these hierarchies that because everything is monetized. Really, 0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:12.080 I mean, if you look at this Trump social nonst 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:15.440 to social nonsense, every single thing is MONTI. So it's 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:18.320 also like what I write about in What We've Become 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:23.359 is how first you scare black Americans into buying guns, 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:27.119 then you use the representation of black Americans with guns 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:30.000 to then sell more guns to white Americans, and so 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:32.840 it becomes this vicious cycle where the people who are 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:37.280 supporting that fascist dictator are also gaining monetarily by like 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:40.640 pitting each other against each other tribally and all these ways. 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:44.240 So it becomes this manipulation that then creates almost like 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:47.679 a classic arms race, you know, where the gun seller 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:49.840 is selling guns to both sides and so. 0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:53.720 For re call it that, Jonathan, what's that your piece 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:56.760 that you're mulling around in your head? Use arms race 0:18:56.800 --> 0:18:58.160 in there somehow. 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:01.080 Well, you know, yeah, the American arms race. Actually, because 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:03.240 I'm still you know, it's still mad they didn't let 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:05.520 me call the book How We Lost. I'm still like 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:08.000 mad about that every day. It was such a better 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:11.000 title for the book, but they told me, like, nobody's 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:13.720 going to buy a book about losing. But it's really 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:17.720 like we our strategies don't respond to like the manipulation 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:23.399 that's that's happening. We're we're being what was that, you know, 0:19:23.480 --> 0:19:26.399 these these fake stocks, Like we're just being manipulated by 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:30.359 these algorithms right into you know, that's like this trump 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:33.560 This truth social is like a perfect metaphor for the 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:36.520 way the gun economy works also, which is they scare 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:38.760 the shit out of people to raise the stocks and 0:19:38.760 --> 0:19:39.440 stuff like that. 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:43.959 Yeah, I mean, you know, the other day was circulating 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:47.920 on social media and it's an interview that Tony Morrison 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:51.359 gave and I think the question from the journalist I 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:54.760 was interviewing her was something to the effect of do 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:57.919 you think that racism will ever end? And she said, 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:03.520 and I'm not quoting directly, but she responded with when 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:06.800 racism will end when it's no longer useful for white people. 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:10.200 And I thought that that was just and I've heard 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:12.880 it before, but it's like every time that you hear 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:17.040 that clip. And then the response from you know, was 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:19.400 a white journalist, was you know, well, what do you 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:21.000 what do you mean? And she's like, when it's no 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:23.879 longer useful for you, you will stop using it, like 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:26.719 plain and simple. That's it's something, you know. And so 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:30.320 I think that for Republicans in a lot of ways, 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:33.680 it's you know, that question around white fear, right, because 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:36.920 it's not white rage, it's also white coupled with white fear. 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:42.120 They will stop using it when it's no longer, When 0:20:42.200 --> 0:20:45.679 fear is no longer their number one marketing tool for 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:46.520 white America. 0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:49.160 Oh man, this is a scary moment. 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:52.520 It is, I mean, it is, it's you know, because 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:55.600 it's scary. And at the same time, Jonathan, don't you 0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:59.919 feel like, while it is scary and I have definite 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:03.760 it days and hours and I talk about it, you know, 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:07.000 with you and with other folks that join the show, 0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:13.359 that we know more now, Oh yeah, right, It's like 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:17.600 we're at a time when we have so much information 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:22.600 at our fingertips, and I think that that is also 0:21:22.680 --> 0:21:25.119 part of what fuels the fear. But it's also just 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:28.440 like we know more about people, how people think, how 0:21:28.480 --> 0:21:33.159 people act right, how how easily people are manipulated, and 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:36.040 so you think that the good people would be able 0:21:36.080 --> 0:21:38.480 to use that information the same way that the bad do. 0:21:39.080 --> 0:21:41.639 But I just don't ever think that that is the case. 0:21:42.640 --> 0:21:46.639 I mean, if that was the case, people wouldn't have 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:50.879 put their life savings in the truth social stock for example, knowing. 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:54.520 I mean, who did that besides Donald Trump? Who put 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:56.600 their life savings other than Donald Trump? 0:21:56.800 --> 0:22:00.639 And I'm saying like past behavior is a of future 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:02.359 Maybe no, I was kind of makeing a joke there, 0:22:02.359 --> 0:22:05.600 but I will say, you know, I'm thinking of the 0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:09.320 Jason Stanley book about how the one of the most 0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:12.840 important factors for the rise of fascism is a divided opposition. 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:16.200 And so the question is not just how we smarter, 0:22:16.280 --> 0:22:18.560 but can we not be divided? Which I know is 0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:20.760 what you're working on so much right now that in 0:22:20.800 --> 0:22:22.680 a way I feel like we know more. But also 0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:26.679 the forces that are dividing us are far more effective 0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:32.200 and nuanced. And you know the fact that Elon muscoone's 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:35.520 Twitter and that somebody is gonna they're gonna do some 0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:38.480 funny stuff to TikTok like the way we So it's 0:22:38.520 --> 0:22:41.280 we know more. But also the forces were against that 0:22:41.320 --> 0:22:45.120 are trying to divide us to create this dystopia are 0:22:45.200 --> 0:22:50.680 also far more, far more advanced, and so in a 0:22:50.720 --> 0:22:54.159 way we have to up our game in so many ways. 0:22:57.840 --> 0:22:59.639 I want to with a couple of minutes that we 0:22:59.640 --> 0:23:03.080 have left, I want to switch topics to where we 0:23:03.119 --> 0:23:09.439 find ourselves in the Israel Hamas War. And you know, 0:23:09.680 --> 0:23:13.159 as we came to tape this today, there's more news 0:23:13.200 --> 0:23:18.680 coming out around the killing of the seven humanitarians working 0:23:18.760 --> 0:23:25.359 with the World Central Kitchen Jseanres's global humanitarian food operation 0:23:25.680 --> 0:23:29.800 that has served millions tens of millions of people, and 0:23:29.840 --> 0:23:31.240 he has an op ed. I know that you didn't 0:23:31.240 --> 0:23:32.960 get an opportunity to read it yet, that is in 0:23:33.000 --> 0:23:36.320 the New York Times. And really it's talking about the 0:23:36.359 --> 0:23:38.760 ways in which food should not be used as a weapon. 0:23:39.320 --> 0:23:43.440 Right that you know, he stated, And I just want 0:23:43.480 --> 0:23:48.000 to give you this like piece, he said quote. Their 0:23:48.080 --> 0:23:50.840 work was based on the simple belief that food is 0:23:50.880 --> 0:23:54.400 a universal human right. It is not conditional on being 0:23:54.480 --> 0:23:58.240 good or bad, rich or poor, left or right. We 0:23:58.320 --> 0:24:01.000 do not ask what religion you beloe to. We just 0:24:01.160 --> 0:24:04.440 ask how many meals do you need? And he says 0:24:04.480 --> 0:24:08.280 this towards the end, which is that israelis, in their 0:24:08.320 --> 0:24:10.800 heart of hearts, know that food is not a weapon 0:24:10.800 --> 0:24:14.040 of war. Israel is better than the way this war 0:24:14.119 --> 0:24:17.199 is being waged. It is better than blocking food and 0:24:17.280 --> 0:24:20.960 medicine to civilians. It is better than killing aid workers 0:24:21.080 --> 0:24:25.280 who are who had coordinated their movements with the Israeli 0:24:25.760 --> 0:24:30.960 defense forces. What I just want to get your reactions 0:24:31.040 --> 0:24:36.920 to this again, in a long line of thirty two 0:24:36.960 --> 0:24:43.159 thousand plus Palestinians being killed, you know, aid workers, humanitarian 0:24:43.240 --> 0:24:48.760 workers who are doing their best to stop a net 0:24:48.840 --> 0:24:54.320 Nyahu created famine. What are your thoughts on where we 0:24:54.400 --> 0:24:55.680 find ourselves right now. 0:24:56.359 --> 0:24:59.000 Well, I think we need a whole show on this, honestly, 0:24:59.160 --> 0:25:03.200 I mean a whole section, because it's the fury right 0:25:03.240 --> 0:25:08.040 now that the outrage from I actually think Biden for 0:25:08.080 --> 0:25:12.440 the first time really expressed like real fury. I think 0:25:12.480 --> 0:25:15.760 that the critiques of the Israeli military of the approach 0:25:15.880 --> 0:25:21.000 right now that kind of became symbolized by by what happened. 0:25:21.640 --> 0:25:26.680 And also just honestly, that is Nitta Yah, who's quite 0:25:26.840 --> 0:25:30.760 smug response in a way it clearly didn't grasp this. 0:25:31.600 --> 0:25:33.720 And so you know, as you know, I mean, this 0:25:33.800 --> 0:25:36.840 is a much longer conversation, Like I've been working in 0:25:36.880 --> 0:25:39.960 this part of the world for a long time. I 0:25:40.080 --> 0:25:43.560 refused and I know I refuse to believe that Nittanyah, 0:25:43.560 --> 0:25:46.679 who is a metonym of Israel, you know what I mean, Like, 0:25:46.720 --> 0:25:50.120 I know so many people in Israel who are mortified 0:25:50.280 --> 0:25:53.320 about all of this, who didn't want, even after October seventh, 0:25:53.400 --> 0:25:56.920 the invasion to happen in the first place. They said, 0:25:56.960 --> 0:26:00.840 like there's no winning for us other than mobilizing the 0:26:00.880 --> 0:26:04.600 world in a diplomatic way, a more targeted way, that 0:26:04.960 --> 0:26:09.800 there's no good answer to like penalizing the entire population. 0:26:10.880 --> 0:26:13.880 But then I also know that there are all these 0:26:13.920 --> 0:26:18.639 bigger geopolitical forces right that you know, Iran is I mean, 0:26:18.640 --> 0:26:22.000 there's so many other forces at play here. So I 0:26:22.000 --> 0:26:25.399 guess the question right now is what will the killing 0:26:25.440 --> 0:26:29.560