WEBVTT - Sending Telegram's CEO to Court 0:00:04.480 --> 0:00:12.559 Welcome to tech Stuff, a production from iHeartRadio. Hey there, 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:16.360 and welcome to tech Stuff. I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:19.479 I'm an executive producer with iHeart Podcasts and how the 0:00:19.560 --> 0:00:24.200 tech are you? So? On Saturday August twenty fourth, twenty 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:29.040 twenty four, French law enforcement officials arrested a man named 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:33.239 Pavel Durov shortly after his private plane landed at an 0:00:33.280 --> 0:00:38.000 airport outside of Paris. So why did they do that? Well, 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:43.320 Durov is the CEO of the company Telegram, a communications 0:00:43.320 --> 0:00:47.760 and file sharing app. Pavel and his brother Nikolai founded 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:51.480 Telegram partly as a way to allow users to communicate 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:55.320 with one another without fear of censorship. But this freedom 0:00:55.560 --> 0:00:59.200 also means that some people use Telegram to either commit 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:03.480 or facilitate illegal activities, and that's what led to Pavel 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:07.240 Durov's arrest. Now I should probably put this in right here, 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:10.000 even though it is a spoiler. Dirov has since been 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:13.800 released from police custody, but we'll still have to appear 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:18.080 in court, which, as I'm recording this has not yet happened. 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:21.080 By the time you hear this, maybe it has now. 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:23.960 I thought I would give a history of Telegram and 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:27.720 some information on the charges that Pavol faces, as well 0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:31.000 as more information about what Telegram itself does. But to 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:33.600 do that, when we first have to talk about a 0:01:33.800 --> 0:01:38.240 predecessor to Telegram. It is a social media platform called 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:46.280 v Contact. That's Vko n Takte or VK for short, 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:50.800 because this launched in Russia. So in two thousand and six, 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:56.200 two years after Facebook, or rather the Facebook launched, Pavel 0:01:56.280 --> 0:02:00.360 Durov created VK with Nikolai So it featured many of 0:02:00.400 --> 0:02:03.360 the same functions that you would find on platforms like 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:08.120 Facebook or MySpace back in the day. Users could create profiles, 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:11.120 they could connect with friends, and as I said, Pavel 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:15.200 lived in Russia at the time. He has citizenship in 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:18.679 many different countries at this point, including France, and the 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:23.240 Russian government has let's say, a little history with wanting 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:26.880 to control the flow of information. That's quite hard to 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:30.680 do on a platform made up of user generated content. 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:34.760 The information isn't coming from some central source. It's not 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:37.840 like a media company. It's being generated by the people 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:41.600 who are actually on the platform. One twenty eleven, some 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:48.080 Russian citizens were taking to VK to protest recent parliamentary elections. 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:52.280 The Russian government didn't want anyone upsetting the borsched cart, 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:56.640 so to speak, and so Durav received the polite request 0:02:57.160 --> 0:03:02.360 that perhaps he censored the posts that were protesting the elections, 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:08.119 you know, or else. Durov declined to acquiesce to their request, 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:11.320 and so the Russian government decided to pull out all 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:16.040 the stops. Now those stops included using essentially propaganda to 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:20.960 heap aspersions upon both VK and Durov himself, but perhaps 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:26.240 the more effective tactic was they sent an armed police 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:31.240 presence to Durov's house to intimidate him into complying with 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:35.520 Russian demands. On top of that, the government allegedly demanded 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:40.000 that Durov handover user information linked to accounts identified as 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:45.600 having posted anti government messages. Durov decided that he had 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:48.840 had enough of that kind of stuff, so ultimately he 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:52.240 would cash out and sell his interest in VK. This, 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:56.200 from what I can tell, happened around twenty fourteen when 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:59.800 he officially sold off his interest in the company, but 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:04.680 he was already thinking ahead to the next thing and 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:08.120 getting out of Dodge or Moscow, as it turns out, 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:11.280 much earlier than that, So he and his brother would 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:16.520 found telegram back in twenty thirteen, so he still had 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:19.160 interests in VK at this point, but would sell them 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:21.840 off the following year. Now, another thing that happened in 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:26.520 twenty thirteen that I'm guessing influenced the Brothers was the 0:04:26.600 --> 0:04:30.880 tale of Edward Snowden. So Snowden was a contractor for 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:34.160 the NSA here in America. Now, in the course of 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:39.320 Snowden's work, he learned about massive surveillance programs, including ones 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:43.000 that involved not just the United States, but it's allies 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:47.520 collaborating with one another and sharing surveillance information between them. 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:51.840 And the scope and depth of these surveillance programs really 0:04:51.960 --> 0:04:56.520 concerned Snowden, so he purposefully leaked information ultimately to the 0:04:56.520 --> 0:05:01.640 public about them, and that got various governments very upset 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:06.480 at Snowden. To put it lightly, Snowden ultimately sought asylum 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:10.080 in Russia, where he was granted asylum, and in twenty 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:14.320 twenty two he received citizenship in Russia. While the US 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:18.119 government viewed Snowden's actions as a violation of several laws, 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:21.760 including the Espionage Act of nineteen seventeen, lots of other 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:25.680 people saw what he did as a heroic act of defiance, 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:30.280 uncovering questionable and disturbing practices across the world, some of 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:35.480 those practices subsequently being found unconstitutional and illegal here in 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:39.080 the United States, and he also helped drive home the 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:41.679 concern that your communications with the people in your life 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:45.160 might not be as private as you would like to think. 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:49.479 One other important change that had happened between the launch 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:53.400 of VK and the launch of Telegram was the rise 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:56.760 of the smartphone. Back in two thousand and six, consumer 0:05:56.800 --> 0:06:00.400 smartphones weren't actually a thing yet. The only phonelks who 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:05.640 touted smartphones around were like business executives and bleeding edge 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:09.920 technology enthusiasts. Everyone else was sporting a cell phone, you know. 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:12.440 Maybe it was a flip phone, maybe it was a 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:15.800 candy bar style phone. Maybe you were super cool and 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:20.200 you had a sidekick. I really really wanted a sidekick anyway. 0:06:20.400 --> 0:06:23.719 The point is, accessing the Web in general and social 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:27.359 media in particular typically meant you were on a desktop 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:31.160 or a laptop computer. But by twenty thirteen we were 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:34.160 well into a seed change in which more people were 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:38.600 relying on smartphones in order to access web content. Now, 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:42.039 it wouldn't really be until like early twenty fourteen that 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:46.200 we started to see web Internet usage on mobile eclipsing 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:48.919 desktop usage here in the United States. That is, it 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:50.920 was different for different parts of the world. Here in 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:53.839 the US around twenty fourteen, that's when that started to happen, 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:57.679 where mobile phones were becoming the primary way that people 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:00.800 were interacting with content on the web, which meant web 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:04.440 designers were hectically trying to figure out how to optimize 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:09.120 pages for users on mobile devices, or to create mobile 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:12.400 specific apps to try and drive traffic to those. I've 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:16.280 seen plenty Heck, I recorded ads for how Stuff Works 0:07:16.360 --> 0:07:21.240 is mobile app way back in the day, because optimizing 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:24.040 a page so that it looks good no matter what 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:27.840 device you're on was tricky. Like it's easier today because 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:31.360 best practices have been created to handle that sort of thing. 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:35.160 But back in like the twenty tens era, that was 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:39.120 still a developing discipline, and so there were a lot 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:42.720 of outlets out there that created apps hoping that they 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:46.280 could drive people to use those apps and manage to 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:50.640 monetize that traffic. I never saw download figures on how 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:53.480 well the house Stuff Works app did. If I had 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:56.640 to suspect what I would guess it was fairly low. 0:07:57.000 --> 0:07:59.400 I thought it was a decent app, but not not 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:05.680 equivalent to the web page experience. Anyway, the mobile landscape 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:10.320 was clearly becoming much more important, and so the Durovs 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:15.560 decided they would focus on a mobile centered application for Telegram, 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:18.560 at least initially. They set up their headquarters in the 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:23.320 United Arab Immirates, specifically in Dubai. So Durov chose this 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:26.760 because he said it was quote the best place for 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:29.760 a neutral platform like ours to be in if we 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:33.040 want to make sure we can defend our user's privacy 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:36.040 and freedom of speech end quote. So in other words, 0:08:36.240 --> 0:08:40.280 Durov was confident that the UAE government wouldn't get so 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:45.200 handsy with Telegram as Russia had with VK. The company 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:49.800 would launch apps for iOS in August twenty thirteen and 0:08:49.800 --> 0:08:53.080 Android in October of that same year. That was after 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:56.840 Telegram had held a contest for Android developers to essentially 0:08:56.920 --> 0:09:02.000 port the code over to the Android environnment. Nikolai developed 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:07.760 the initial mobile protocol for Telegram that included the encryption protocol. 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:11.040 Now I should add that not all messages are encrypted 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:16.120 on Telegram, and that's actually a key component to the 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:19.960 issues that Durov currently faces. So in fact, even a 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:25.280 one on one conversation inside telegram is not encrypted by default. 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:29.960 You actually have to manually turn on encryption if you 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:33.880 want your communication to be encrypted. For those one on 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:37.760 one conversations, you can have to end encryption that protects 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:40.600 the message from prying eyes. And I've talked about encryption 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:44.160 many times before, but basically, from a very high level, 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:47.200 here's how it works. You have two users, and they 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:51.160 have a means of encrypting and decrypting messages so that 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:55.160 the information that's actually sent between the two appears to 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:59.800 be gibberish. An outside party snooping in on the conversation 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:03.600 would just see a string of apparently meaningless characters with 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:07.880 no real message inside of it, but the individual users 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:12.320 would get the decrypted raw text messages or files or 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:15.679 whatever it might be into end. Encryption has lots of legitimate, 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:19.520 important uses that can help people maintain secure and private 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:24.320 methods of communication, and law enforcement agencies often really don't 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:27.760 like it because it makes their jobs harder. I guess 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:30.199 it depends on how you look at their jobs, because 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:33.680 some people would say, oh, sure, law enforcement's job of 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:38.559 surveying all innocent citizens and trying to look for crimes, 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:41.640 and others would say, oh, law enforcement's job of being 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:46.199 able to detect and then protect people from criminal activity. 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:48.199 I guess it really depends on your point of view. 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:51.600 But detecting illegal activities is a lot harder if all 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:55.960 the communications between the practitioners are scrambled. And there's been 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:57.880 a lot of pressure in different parts of the world 0:10:58.000 --> 0:11:02.880 on different platforms to open up backdoor access to encrypted communications, 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:09.920 essentially to give law enforcement a universal key to decrypt 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:12.800 communications so that they can see if there's anything hinky 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:16.160 going on. Now, in many cases this really isn't possible 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:19.800 unless you grant access to the end points themselves, like 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:23.960 you somehow get access to the actual end devices where 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:26.920 the decryption is taking place, because good end to end 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:30.120 encryption means that even the platform that's offering it is 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:33.960 unable to break that encryption. Moreover, the design was such 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:37.520 that these encrypted chats would only exist on those end 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:42.959 devices because Telegram didn't store the encrypted communications in the cloud, 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:46.400 So even if someone were to compromise Telegram systems, they 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:49.800 wouldn't be able to access the encrypted communications stored there 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:54.800 because there weren't any stored there. Anyway, this protocol that 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:59.760 was primarily about encryption, was called mt proto, and Nikolai 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:03.199 authored the first version of it, and you can visit 0:12:03.240 --> 0:12:06.480 the Telegram website to read up on how it works. Although, 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:09.800 to be fair, the version that Telegram uses now is 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:14.560 MT proto two point zero, and so it's different. Right. 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:19.440 It's evolved considerably since the launch in twenty thirteen, and 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:23.480 it gets a bit complicated to talk about the details 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:26.440 in a podcast that doesn't have visual aids. Besides that, 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:29.440 even if this were a video podcast, I am no 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:32.920 expert in encryption, and so chances are I would end 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:37.120 up communicating something poorly or just outright incorrectly if I 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:39.760 were to really tackle it. The important bit is that 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:42.840 mt proto was one of the early building blocks Nickel 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:45.360 I made for Telegram, and they also chose to make 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:49.520 this an open protocol, meaning the entire community could review 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:52.400 and examine how the protocol worked. This was meant to 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:56.000 eliminate trust issues, like the idea is remove trust from 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:59.120 being a concern, like there's no reason to trust Telegram. 0:12:59.160 --> 0:13:01.520 You can look into all of this and make sure 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:05.760 that things are run the way the app was claiming it, 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:09.160 so users could see exactly how the protocol was handling encryption. 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:13.280 And verify that communications were secure, right, like, no copies 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:17.760 of that communication would be going to Telegram itself, et cetera. 0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:19.800 All right, We've got a lot more to talk about 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:22.839 when it comes to Telegram and its features. Before we 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:24.800 get to that, let's take a quick break to thank 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:36.960 our sponsors, so we're back. We talked a bit about 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:41.400 encryption with Telegram. Another feature that the app would offer 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:46.000 early on was a self destruct option for messages. That is, 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:50.559 once a message had been received, and then later it 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:54.400 was improved so once it had been read, then it 0:13:54.440 --> 0:13:57.680 would self delete after a given amount of time. So 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:01.400 early on the self destruct was literally like within a 0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:05.320 certain amount of time since the message was received. Problem is, 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:08.880 not everyone reads messages just when they get them, right. 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:12.000 You could be in a situation where you can't. Maybe 0:14:12.000 --> 0:14:14.000 you're on a flight or something and you haven't had 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:17.880 your phone connected to Wi Fi and you're not connected 0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:21.800 to the internet, so you could receive the message through Telegram, 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:24.480 but you haven't had a chance to read it yet, 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:27.240 and then meanwhile the timer is ticking down for when 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:31.400 it's going to self delete. Later on, they did increase 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:34.760 this so that it was after you had opened the 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:37.520 message and then the timer would start. So this was 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:41.080 kind of like the original concept behind Snapchat, in which 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:44.520 a user could send an image and after a given 0:14:44.560 --> 0:14:47.520 amount of time, that image would go puff in the 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:50.800 receiver's app, except, of course, in the case of Snapchat, 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:54.480 copies of those images could still exist on Snapchat's cloud servers. 0:14:54.520 --> 0:14:57.120 That was a whole thing Telegram was saying, Okay, well, 0:14:57.120 --> 0:14:58.720 that's not going to be the case with us, Like, 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:02.560 the messages are only going to exist on the end devices, 0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:05.640 not in the cloud, So once they delete, that's it. 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:09.520 We don't have a copy of it, so they're gone. Also, originally, 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:14.960 the self delete feature only worked for the receiver's side, 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:17.800 so the person who sent the message would still be 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:20.680 able to see the message after it had been deleted 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:26.400 off the second party's device. Eventually, Telegram would change that 0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:29.680 as well, where the message would get deleted off all 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:32.520 the devices, both of the devices, because this only works 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:35.640 on end to end or user to use their communications, 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:39.160 so one on one situations. But yeah, originally it was 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:42.880 just the person who received it. Their message would get deleted. Clearly, 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:46.080 if you want to send let's say, a really sensitive 0:15:46.200 --> 0:15:49.720 message and you don't want other people to snoop in 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:53.320 and see this. Having it self delete not just on 0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:56.960 the person who received the message, but also your device 0:15:57.040 --> 0:15:59.360 would be really important. I mean, what if someone got 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:02.320 hold of your and then thumb through to try and 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:05.400 see what kind of messaging you'd been up to. If 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:09.160 you are in a country that has a really authoritarian 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:12.720 government that is just looking for a reason to throw 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:16.640 you in the whoscal Yeah, you want to have a 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:19.400 messaging app that's going to clear your history so that 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:23.760 you don't have to worry about getting hauled away for 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:28.400 violating some authoritarian rule. Now telegram would allow for more 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:32.160 than just one on one communications, though these other methods 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:36.200 would not enjoy the benefit of end to end encryption, 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:40.040 which again becomes part of the problem for dear off. Now, 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:43.720 so you could have a session in which one user 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:47.480 was posting to many other users. This would be kind 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:51.040 of a broadcast approach, one person broadcasting to many I 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:53.200 like to think of this kind of similar to ways 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:57.480 that Twitter now x works, or threads or something like that, 0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:01.080 where you can post a general message and it goes 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:04.920 out to anyone who can follow you, or or sometimes 0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:08.480 if you're posting to the public, anybody at all. You 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:10.720 could have a session in which you know, you have 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:14.840 a group chat, potentially a really massive group chat. Telegram 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:17.280 is said to be able to accommodate up to two 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:22.399 hundred thousand users in a single chat session. I have 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:25.200 no idea how you would be able to parse such 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:27.600 a thing or even just keep up with chat now. 0:17:27.640 --> 0:17:31.080 I've been in YouTube chat rooms where there were you know, 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:35.440 around one thousand people watching something, and obviously only a 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:40.960 slice of that population is even bothering chatting while they're watching, 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:44.280 and even in that case, keeping up with what's going 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:47.000 on is really challenging to do, so I don't know 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:49.639 how you do it in a Telegram chat room. To 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:53.040 be fair, I've also never used Telegram personally, so I 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:55.480 don't have any real experience with this app on a 0:17:56.119 --> 0:18:00.720 user level. Telegram also allows for file transfers between users, which, 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:03.920 along with the encryption and messages that self delete after 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:06.160 a given amount of time, make up a large part 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:09.480 of the reasons that authorities have been concerned about this app, 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:12.959 because anytime you have ways for people to share information, 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:15.760 there's a concern that people are going to do that 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:21.920 in order to further nefarious goals. By December twenty thirteen, 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:27.200 the Telegram community had plugged one quote unquote significant vulnerability 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:31.720 in mt proto as part of the first Telegram crypto contest. 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:37.000 That's according to Telegram's own timeline of how things evolved 0:18:37.119 --> 0:18:40.760 in the app. The person who discovered the vulnerability received 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:44.040 a one hundred thousand dollars bug bounty for doing so, 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:49.640 so there was an incentive to help improve the protocols 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:53.960 and to look for things like vulnerabilities, and overall this 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:57.240 would benefit the entire community, So it was an effective 0:18:57.320 --> 0:19:01.199 way to improve the product. You may your own community 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:05.320 QA testers in a way. The following month, Telegram offered 0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:09.399 the feature of file transfers, with an initial file size 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:12.439 limit of one and a half gigabytes. That's a fairly 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:16.000 hefty file sized and Telegram did not restrict the types 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:20.199 of documents that could be transferred across its service, so 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:23.920 whether it was a JPEG or a doc file or 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:26.640 a PDF or whatever it might be, you could send 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:28.760 it as long as it was as it wasn't larger 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:31.720 than one and a half gigabytes. Around that same time, 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:36.879 developers created a client for PCs, so this expanded Telegram 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:40.919 beyond the smartphone environment. This would eventually evolve into the 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:46.480 Telegram desktop app. In February twenty fourteen, developers created a 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:49.600 web based app for the service, and others made a 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:52.679 version of the app for Windows Phone. Do you remember 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:55.160 Windows Phone? I mean that was still a thing back 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:58.000 in twenty fourteen. In fact, it would remain a thing 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:01.800 for five more years. Microsoft officially in support for Windows 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:07.679 Phone in twenty nineteen. Telegram was evolving rapidly, so the 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:10.920 next feature added to the app in March twenty fourteen 0:20:11.280 --> 0:20:15.879 was support for voice messages. So now you've got file transfers, 0:20:15.880 --> 0:20:18.280 you've got one on one communication, you have one to 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:22.200 many in the broadcast channels, you've got chat, you've got 0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:26.240 voice messaging. At this point, also the app changed how 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:29.480 it handled secret messages. This is when we got to 0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:33.680 the change for self destruct. So again, earlier self destruct 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:36.880 only affected the receiving device, but now, starting in March 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:39.720 twenty fourteen, the messages would disappear from both the sender's 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:43.840 device and the receiver's devices, so you no longer had 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:48.160 a trail of these messages. To list all the feature 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:52.960 upgrades month by month would become really tedious, And as 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:57.760 I said, if you go to Telegram's timeline of the 0:20:57.800 --> 0:21:02.400 evolution of the app. You can actually read all about this. Weirdly, 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:06.119 it's it's listed in reverse chronological order. I guess that 0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:07.600 makes sense if you just want to know what the 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:11.520 most recent additions are to the app, But if you're 0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:15.240 looking at it from a historical perspective, it's very weird 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:17.800 to start from the most recent and work your way backward, 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:20.520 because it just means that as you go on, the 0:21:20.600 --> 0:21:23.760 app gets fewer features over time because you're going back 0:21:23.800 --> 0:21:27.320 in time. I actually read it in reverse order anyway, 0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:30.879 There's no reason to go through all of them. It 0:21:30.880 --> 0:21:34.280 would just get very tedious. You did see a lot 0:21:34.320 --> 0:21:37.440 more features get added over time. The app just would 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:40.480 get more and more robust every year, gain support for 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:45.320 everything from multiple file uploads where you could do several 0:21:45.359 --> 0:21:48.080 files at a time, particularly photos like you could you 0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:50.680 could choose multiple photos as opposed to doing them one 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:53.800 at a time, to playing animated gifts, you know, like 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:56.320 you know, the standard stuff that you encounter in various 0:21:56.359 --> 0:21:59.880 social platforms today. Later updates incorporated the ability to play 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:04.080 media files directly within the Telegram app. You know, previously 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:06.680 you would have to download the file and then play 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:10.840 it in some other media player app. Now that capability 0:22:10.880 --> 0:22:13.959 was built directly into Telegram itself, it also opened up 0:22:13.960 --> 0:22:17.639 support for bots. These could be incorporated into chat rooms 0:22:17.640 --> 0:22:21.080 to enhance the experience in various ways, though frequently not 0:22:21.720 --> 0:22:25.440 really for moderation, which is again like content moderation, I mean, 0:22:25.680 --> 0:22:28.480 and that is another issue that we'll talk about in 0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:31.399 this episode. So the list of features has grown now 0:22:31.440 --> 0:22:33.640 to a point where it would take an entire episode 0:22:33.680 --> 0:22:36.960 to cover all the things that Telegram facilitates today. It 0:22:37.080 --> 0:22:40.960 encompasses everything from allowing payments through the app for physical 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:44.920 and digital goods, to an in app currency called Stars 0:22:45.280 --> 0:22:48.560 that users can use to reward other accounts for stuff. 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:51.520 It's kind of like the bits you would find on Twitch, 0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:56.439 that kind of stuff. Okay, So that's all fine. Telegram 0:22:56.520 --> 0:22:59.280 has evolved since it first hit the scene in mid 0:22:59.320 --> 0:23:02.720 twenty thirteen. You would expect that, right, as many of 0:23:02.760 --> 0:23:05.360 the same features that you find in other platforms, while 0:23:05.400 --> 0:23:09.720 also being largely free from traditional advertising and, according to 0:23:09.840 --> 0:23:14.879 the dourovs from data mining. Right Like, if you're on WhatsApp, 0:23:15.240 --> 0:23:18.840 which is owned by Meta, you know that Meta is 0:23:19.160 --> 0:23:21.399 scraping a lot of data from you. Because that's what 0:23:21.440 --> 0:23:23.600 they do with all their platforms. That's their bread and butter, 0:23:23.960 --> 0:23:27.520 right like whether it's on Facebook or Instagram or WhatsApp, 0:23:28.000 --> 0:23:31.680 that ends up being really valuable information when Facebook is 0:23:31.720 --> 0:23:36.200 looking for ways to sell targeted advertising with you in mind. 0:23:36.359 --> 0:23:39.920 So the original concept behind Telegram was that it wouldn't 0:23:39.960 --> 0:23:44.400 be profit oriented at all. It was not organized as 0:23:44.440 --> 0:23:48.320 a not for profit organization, however, that's important to remember, 0:23:48.680 --> 0:23:51.600 but the concept was that profit would not be a 0:23:51.680 --> 0:23:55.360 driving consideration for the service. That the Dourovs were determined 0:23:55.359 --> 0:23:59.800 to create a useful communications platform free from external interference, 0:24:00.000 --> 0:24:03.399 which included not just governments, but things like corporations. But 0:24:03.480 --> 0:24:07.760 Telegram does earn revenue primarily. It does this through in 0:24:07.920 --> 0:24:12.560 app purchases, so rather than settle for the bog standard experience, 0:24:13.040 --> 0:24:16.640 a user can shell out money to access premium features 0:24:16.880 --> 0:24:20.320 like customization tools and such. This can include stuff like 0:24:20.400 --> 0:24:23.679 stickers that can be used in chat rooms or themes 0:24:23.720 --> 0:24:26.600 for chat spaces, that kind of thing. Users can even 0:24:26.640 --> 0:24:29.600 design their own stickers and offer them up for sale 0:24:29.800 --> 0:24:33.000 in a digital marketplace, with Telegram getting a cut of 0:24:33.040 --> 0:24:36.240 the action, so they take a little percentage of each 0:24:36.359 --> 0:24:40.159 sale done through that method. Telegram also does work with 0:24:40.240 --> 0:24:43.840 businesses in ways that allow for other revenue generation methods. 0:24:44.040 --> 0:24:47.439 I did say also is largely free of advertising, but 0:24:47.600 --> 0:24:52.920 not totally free of advertising. There are ads on Telegram, however, 0:24:53.000 --> 0:24:55.840 they are limited to appearing within broadcast channels that have 0:24:55.920 --> 0:24:59.800 at least one thousand subscribers ONTs more, these ads can 0:24:59.840 --> 0:25:02.320 own only appear as text messages, and they have a 0:25:02.359 --> 0:25:05.280 hard limit of one hundred and sixty characters. On top 0:25:05.359 --> 0:25:08.800 of that, businesses can establish their own channels and their 0:25:08.840 --> 0:25:13.240 own groups within Telegram, and that in turn is another 0:25:13.280 --> 0:25:17.080 revenue stream for Telegram itself. But now let's talk about 0:25:17.320 --> 0:25:22.679 the dark side of this application. So one consequence of 0:25:22.720 --> 0:25:26.240 creating a platform that aims to be free from censorship 0:25:26.320 --> 0:25:29.640