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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Nigeria's Central Bank is

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Speaker 1: under pressure to get more money to the country's ATMs

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Speaker 1: as frustration with getting a hold of cash continues to grow.

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Speaker 2: Getting cash from the bank is so difficult considering the transports,

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Speaker 2: daily expenses like food, what the paybews. You need cash

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Speaker 2: for all of these things. Transportation is to need cash.

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Speaker 1: With cash machines regularly empty, many people are having to

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Speaker 1: turn to cash agents to access their funds, raising concerns

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Speaker 1: about whether this is increasing access to financial services or

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Speaker 1: just opening up avenues for exploitation.

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Speaker 3: Because of this custody of cash, we five thousand era

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Speaker 3: we charge two hundred ten thousand is three hundred lot

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Speaker 3: too much too because we buy the cash and federal

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Speaker 3: government also charge Sunday money points.

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Speaker 1: On today's episode of The Next Africa Podcast, we'll look

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Speaker 1: at Nigeria's cash situation and if the Central Bank's latest

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Speaker 1: actions will make any real difference. I'm Jennifer Zabasaja and

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Speaker 1: this is the Next Africa Podcast, bringing you one story

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Speaker 1: each week from the continent driving the future of global growth,

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Speaker 1: but the context only Bloomberg can provide. Joining me from Abuja,

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Speaker 1: is Bloomberg's nduka or Jinmo ndukah. Great to have you on.

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Speaker 1: I should note I am at the G twenty right now,

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Speaker 1: so excuse some of the noise in the background, but

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for coming on. Let's just start here.

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Speaker 1: I remember being in Nigeria just a few years ago

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Speaker 1: during the election and it was a challenge to get

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Speaker 1: cash out of the ATMs. Talk to us about the

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Speaker 1: situation now. Is it still just as difficult.

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Speaker 4: Yes, it is still an issue getting cash from the banks.

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Speaker 4: The banks are not more cultivated to load up their

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Speaker 4: cash pers and just just the easy.

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Speaker 5: Answers to it.

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Speaker 1: So and duka. Then the situation has led to a

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Speaker 1: lot of people turning to the so called POS operators.

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Speaker 1: Who are they and how is it working right now

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Speaker 1: on the ground based on your reporting.

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Speaker 4: So these POS agents, that is a point of self

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Speaker 4: caminals that you find usual in shops and in businesses.

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Speaker 4: But what has happened is that since twenty sixteen, in

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Speaker 4: order to drive financial inclusion across Nigeria, the Center Brank

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Speaker 4: then allowed this POS agent so use these terminals that

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Speaker 4: would otherwise be using shops and businesses.

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Speaker 5: So then start giving up cash to people that that

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Speaker 5: need cash.

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Speaker 4: So you find them around street corners, you know, in

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Speaker 4: villages and areas, in places where you won't find banks,

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Speaker 4: you find these pus agents. However, you also find them

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Speaker 4: in the big cities. So you find them in Legos,

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Speaker 4: you find them in a bus, you find them in

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Speaker 4: you know, the busiest parts of the cities where traditionally

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Speaker 4: you have you know, these big banks. So in Legos,

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Speaker 4: for instance, our colleague million who went to the dec

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Speaker 4: Now that's straight in Ninnginia with the highest concentration of

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Speaker 4: banks you're talking about the biggest banks in Nigeria have

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Speaker 4: their branches on the street. Both competing alongside them are

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Speaker 4: these pos agents, you knowing their umbrellas and then you

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Speaker 4: just have this this young person usually who has a

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Speaker 4: word of cash you know, in their bag and they

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Speaker 4: are they have been accused of selling cash though I

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Speaker 4: don't think that's the right world. But because of their

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Speaker 4: their commissions, which is pegged around one percent per five

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Speaker 4: thousand nira, multiple feel that's that's extortionists and it's quite high.

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Speaker 4: But you do find them across you know, every street

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Speaker 4: in Ninsia. They're around two million of them. Just to

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Speaker 4: give you a sense of how proliferated they are. If

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Speaker 4: I got my street now in my neighborhood, they are

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Speaker 4: three of them on my streets. So they're around what

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Speaker 4: one POS agent for one hundred Nigeria to tell you.

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Speaker 5: How how widespread they are.

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Speaker 4: What they do carry out the very important function of

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Speaker 4: giving now to people who need cash.

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Speaker 5: But they have caught the eyes of the Central Bank

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Speaker 5: in recent times.

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Speaker 1: And I mean when we when we think about financial

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Speaker 1: inclusion especially this was a goal for the Central Bank,

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Speaker 1: why are they so concerned about the proliferation of these

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Speaker 1: POS agents.

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Speaker 4: The concern is arising from the fact that these POS

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Speaker 4: agents have now morphed from what we know they were

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Speaker 4: originally set out to do to something that is now

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Speaker 4: almost strangulating the financial system.

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Speaker 5: What is central bank?

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Speaker 4: The othern envisage was this POS agents basically going to

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Speaker 4: cashalty businesses that would otherwise deposit their cash in the banks.

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Speaker 4: Now these POS agents are going to this business. So

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Speaker 4: they're going to filling stations, they're going to big super markets,

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Speaker 4: they're going to open markets, and they're basically collecting cash.

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Speaker 5: From these businesses.

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Speaker 4: So you think of a filling station that would you know,

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Speaker 4: make work millions of narrow the end of it of

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Speaker 4: the day, and ordinarily we take that money to your bank.

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Speaker 4: They're no longer doing that, so that these plus agents

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Speaker 4: are are going to these businesses, offering them higher commissions

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Speaker 4: and buying that cash from them. Now, what that means

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Speaker 4: is that you have millions of nira recirculating in the

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Speaker 4: system which are necessarily getting into the banks.

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Speaker 5: We are necessarily getting back to the cibion and you

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Speaker 5: have to.

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Speaker 4: Think of the central banks one of its functions, as

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Speaker 4: you know, managing cash in the system, but that's no

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Speaker 4: longer happening because these pos agents are doing that now.

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Speaker 4: Roughly roughly ninety three percent of total crencing circulation, which

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Speaker 4: is around tup point six billion nera, it's outside the

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Speaker 4: banks at the moment. That's according to the Central Bank

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Speaker 4: from September last year. That has gone up eighty one

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Speaker 4: percent since twenty nineteen. So that gives you a sense

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Speaker 4: of how big this issue is where you have, you know,

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Speaker 4: millions of nyira billions in dollars now.

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Speaker 5: Outside of the central banks control.

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Speaker 4: And that's troubling because you have to understand that Nigeria

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Speaker 4: is at the moment dealing with sky high inflation where

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Speaker 4: you have lots of money in the system and the

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Speaker 4: central bank has raised its interest rates to twenty seven

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Speaker 4: point five percent to tackle all that. So the central

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Speaker 4: bank is in fact aggressively tightening moment supplying the system.

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Speaker 4: But then you have all this money out of the

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Speaker 4: system that's aft of the central banks control. So it

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Speaker 4: is now trying to walk back on that by trying

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Speaker 4: to see how we can limit the operations of these

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Speaker 4: and pures agents.

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Speaker 1: And it still seems like Nigeria, like many other African economies,

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Speaker 1: is reliant on cash. Complicate the situation on the ground

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Speaker 1: even more.

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Speaker 5: Yes it does, Yes, it does.

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Speaker 4: When you came to Ninjuria and then you notice that

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Speaker 4: there was that huge cash shortage that was the central

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Speaker 4: bouk own policy to try to drive you know, it's

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Speaker 4: it's cash less intentions and make the mistake about it

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Speaker 4: gen and that's really happening where you have people who

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Speaker 4: are transitioning from cash to doing things online, you know,

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Speaker 4: and doing all our cash less transactions. However, there's still

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Speaker 4: a large trunk of the Nigerian economy that is driving

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Speaker 4: that is so cash heavy. So you talk about the farmers,

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Speaker 4: you know, and it's being in the villages. The only

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Speaker 4: only way they want to transact is in cash. If

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Speaker 4: you don't have cash, they don't do business with you.

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Speaker 4: And you talk about the transports situation in Nigeria. So

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Speaker 4: if you want to feel like a transport fair, if

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Speaker 4: you want to use like the yellow bosses and legos

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Speaker 4: or the taxes in Abuja, the only way you can

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Speaker 4: you can pay them, it's by cash. They don't accept

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Speaker 4: in you other form of payment. And you think of

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Speaker 4: millions of Nigeria have to use this public transport system

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Speaker 4: every day. So the economy self is reliant on cash.

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Speaker 4: I think also the banks have not really helped the situation.

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Speaker 4: Most of the banks in Nigeria, the big banks have

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Speaker 4: in the last or six months been migrating their software

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Speaker 4: and that has really cost big hiccups in the in

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Speaker 4: the banking system where you have people unable to make transactions,

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Speaker 4: people able to make payments, and that has really reduced

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Speaker 4: confidence in that system.

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Speaker 5: This online cash.

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Speaker 4: List system and Central Bank is trying to promote, so

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Speaker 4: you then have more people falling back on cash to

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Speaker 4: make payments because I mean, cash never feels she does it.

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Speaker 4: Your SMARTPHM I field if you don't have the next

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Speaker 4: work on it. But with cash, you're always on the

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Speaker 4: sieve side, so that that's where the challenge is. And

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Speaker 4: don't forget also nine economy is heavily informal and this

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Speaker 4: three percent of people working the informa kashchevisector. So there's

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Speaker 4: always going to be the need for Nigeria to use cash.

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Speaker 4: It's gratly changing, I have to say, but I'm not

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Speaker 4: at a pace where you see cash ticket a backseat introductions.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, unraveling what's been such a long time habit is

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Speaker 1: going to prove difficult. Stick with us in DUCA. When

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Speaker 1: we come back, we'll talk about what the Central Bank

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Speaker 1: is doing to at least try to improve the situation

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Speaker 1: and access to cash. We'll be right back. Welcome back

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Speaker 1: today on the podcast, we're discussing Nigeria's ATM crisis. We

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Speaker 1: have Bloomberg's Induca or Ginmo with us, who reported out

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Speaker 1: on the story. So, Indica, what is the CBN trying

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Speaker 1: to do about this dilemma that they've gotten. It's a

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Speaker 1: bit of a carrot and stick approach. How do they

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Speaker 1: actually make some progress to the goals that they've set

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Speaker 1: out here?

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Speaker 4: The Center Bank has in the past threatened to sanctioned

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Speaker 4: banks that you know, don't load.

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Speaker 5: Up their ATMs.

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Speaker 4: One of the accusations is that these banks collude with

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Speaker 4: these pus agents because the the bank charges were in

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Speaker 4: the past. Peggy that thirty five naira three times what

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Speaker 4: the pos agents charged per five thousand narraw with Rawal,

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Speaker 4: so it was more equative for some of these banks

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Speaker 4: to then sell their cash, the cash that it goes

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Speaker 4: from the Sibyan to sell this this cash through this

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Speaker 4: pus agent. So and this coming from the Cibyan. So

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Speaker 4: decipion has that documented and early d last year some

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Speaker 4: banks were sanctioned for doing that for basically taking cash

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Speaker 4: from the sipian and another of them put their cash

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Speaker 4: in their ATMs. We are then giving the cash to

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Speaker 4: these pus agents that we are selling it at a.

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Speaker 5: Much higher higher commission.

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Speaker 4: Now the Central Bank is trying to make the banks

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Speaker 4: see value in their own ATMs by now increasing the

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Speaker 4: charges and it's now matching what this pus gents charge.

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Speaker 5: So it used to be thirty five.

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Speaker 4: Naira, it's not gone up three hundred ira that's going

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Speaker 4: to come into effect from the first of match. So

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Speaker 4: the Central Bank is hoping that by incentivizing these banks

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Speaker 4: with higher charges, higher commission rates, that they can then

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Speaker 4: load up the ATMs with this cash that they're getting

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Speaker 4: from from the central bank. That is what the central

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Speaker 4: bank hopes will make the difference. I can sid visioning

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Speaker 4: there because banks have complained from the bank managers I

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Speaker 4: spoke to, have complained that the loading the ATMs to

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Speaker 4: cash is not as attractive, especially when you have a

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Speaker 4: teams that are in the suburbs or not in the

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Speaker 4: city center. If the CIBIAN allows these pus agents to

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Speaker 4: charge as higher as hundred nira. The banks have made

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Speaker 4: a case in the past that they should be allowed

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Speaker 4: to charge us as much.

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Speaker 5: That is not coming into effect.

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Speaker 4: But the central bank is now saying, look, we're going

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Speaker 4: to calm down hard on those that don't load their

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Speaker 4: ATMs because if not, we're not going to let you

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Speaker 4: charge what is competitive. You now have the responsibility to

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Speaker 4: load up your ATMs.

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Speaker 1: When will we know whether this is actually working and

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Speaker 1: improving the situation on the ground. Do you think it

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Speaker 1: will take some time or this to play itself out.

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Speaker 4: I think it would take some time. We're already seeing

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Speaker 4: piny movements, tiny changes. I've seen people online who are

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Speaker 4: saying that, look, some ATMs, some bank ATMs that have

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Speaker 4: not functioned years have now been revived. A friend of

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Speaker 4: mine in Lego said an ATM across his office that

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Speaker 4: has not worked for a very long time. He went

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Speaker 4: there last week and then it was dispensed in cash.

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Speaker 4: So I think we're going to see that, you know,

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Speaker 4: gradually happen over time.

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Speaker 5: As these banks, you know, see these charges go up.

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Speaker 4: However, it's going to take a lot, a lot to

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Speaker 4: get the pos agents out of these news.

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Speaker 5: The banks are not everywhere.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I've told you there are two million PUS agents.

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Speaker 4: There are well less than fifty ATMs across NINEERI according

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Speaker 4: to to the World Bank. So the banks can't compete

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Speaker 4: with these with these pos ages. And that's the.

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Speaker 1: Facts, and you can read and Duco's reporting on Bloomberg platforms.

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Speaker 1: Now will put a link to that in the show notes.

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Speaker 1: Here's some of the other stories we've been following across

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Speaker 1: the region this week. US Chief Justice John Roberts temporarily

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Speaker 1: let President Donald Trump keep freezing foreign aid payments while

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Speaker 1: the Supreme Court wighs whether to lift in order that

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Speaker 1: would require disbursement of as much as two billion dollars.

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Speaker 1: Humanitarian groups say the freeze is having a devastating effect,

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Speaker 1: upending hundreds of projects, forcing USA partner groups to layoff

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Speaker 1: or furlough thousands of US workers, and putting people who

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Speaker 1: depend on the assistance at risk of disease and death.

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Speaker 1: And Malawian President Lazarus Chaquerra fired his trade minister a

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Speaker 1: day after protests erupted in the capital over a cost

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Speaker 1: of living crisis in the poverty stricken Southern African nation.

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Speaker 1: Consumer inflation in Malawi has exceeded twenty percent since July

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Speaker 1: of twenty twenty two, partly fueled by a drought that

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Speaker 1: has increased the cost of corn, a staple food in

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Speaker 1: the country of twenty one million people. Presidential elections are

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Speaker 1: scheduled to be held in September, and you can follow

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Speaker 1: these stories across Bloomberg Now, including the Next African Newsletter.

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Speaker 1: Will put a link to that in the show notes.

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Speaker 1: This program was produced by Adrian Bradley. Don't forget to

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Speaker 1: follow and review the show wherever you usually get your podcasts.

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Speaker 1: I'm Jennifer's Abasaja. Thank you for listening.