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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 2: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Paul, Hi, Kate, how are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well. I have a question because every once

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Speaker 1: in a while I get very down about true crime.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to work in this space all the time.

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Speaker 1: It can be very sad, of course, and I think

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Speaker 1: the more that I allow myself to be affected by it,

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Speaker 1: the more I'm sort of like, oh, my gosh, I

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Speaker 1: need the inspirational stuff. So, since you were in the

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Speaker 1: field and you worked for so long, what were the

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Speaker 1: things that you saw, or maybe it's cases that you

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Speaker 1: worked where they could have been awful but you were

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Speaker 1: inspired by something. I don't know if it's the family

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Speaker 1: or a survivor or anything like that, where you just

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Speaker 1: kind of thought, Wow, this is a new perspective and

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Speaker 1: one that I would not think somebody would be able

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Speaker 1: to muster this up, but they have. Can you think

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Speaker 1: of anything like that?

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Speaker 2: Well, I can think of multiple examples of I guess,

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Speaker 2: surprising resilience. Most notably, there's a case. This is the

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Speaker 2: Zianna Fairchild case. Seven year old girl. She goes missing

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Speaker 2: and she's missing for a long time. Her great biological

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Speaker 2: great aunt Stephanie, but she was one who actually raised

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Speaker 2: Theianna because Sianna's bio mom was in prison at the

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Speaker 2: time Zianna was born. Stephanie raised Theanna believe it or not,

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Speaker 2: out here in Colorado Springs before moving when bio mom

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Speaker 2: wanted her daughter back, Ziana went to Valleeo, California with

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Speaker 2: bio mom and the boyfriend, and Stephanie ultimately moved out

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Speaker 2: to Valleo. When Zianna went missing after having to walk

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Speaker 2: alone to her bus stop. She was a missing girl.

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Speaker 2: I forget exactly how long, like a year, and then

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Speaker 2: her skull was found in the Los g Ados mountains,

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Speaker 2: a dog brought her skull back. Stephanie reached out to

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Speaker 2: me when she found out about who I was and

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Speaker 2: asked if I could help on Zianna's case, which I did,

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Speaker 2: and I became friends with Stephanie. And here is a mother,

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Speaker 2: you know, when like I'm trying to find Ziana, the

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Speaker 2: rest is Sanna. That was part of my goal is

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Speaker 2: to get Stephanie Siana back. And I distinctly remember I

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Speaker 2: was so crushed when I found out that where Ziana

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Speaker 2: had been dumped, this is where you have wild boar

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Speaker 2: and wild boar eat carry on bones and all. And

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Speaker 2: I had to tell Stephanie, you know, I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I don't think you're going to get you're going to

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Speaker 2: find Ziana. I don't think she's out there anymore. And

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Speaker 2: I so dreaded that conversation and I kind of led

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Speaker 2: into this going it's going to be hard, and Stephanie just,

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Speaker 2: you know, straight up looked me in the eye and

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Speaker 2: said I need to hear it. And I told her,

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Speaker 2: you know, and you could see her eyes waver but

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Speaker 2: she just became even more resolute after that, and then ultimately,

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Speaker 2: you know, she's confronting Zianna's killer, who was Kurtistine Anderson.

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Speaker 2: She's literally going into jail confronting him. She's having to

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Speaker 2: correspond with him. And I know she has a book

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Speaker 2: out about her correspondence with her daughter's killer, you know,

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Speaker 2: and you could see through the letters, the exchange of

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Speaker 2: these letters, the torment that he was putting her through,

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Speaker 2: because this is when she didn't know Sianna was dead

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Speaker 2: before the skull had been found. But in many ways

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Speaker 2: she was. She was inspiring because even with such a

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Speaker 2: horrific tragedy, she really showed kind of perseverance. And you know,

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Speaker 2: there's so many aspects to her story that you know,

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Speaker 2: it's just it is one of those things where you go, yes,

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Speaker 2: this is she she suffered through so much, but she

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Speaker 2: really sets the bar in turn terms of showing a

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Speaker 2: level of strength and optimistic outlook in the face of

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Speaker 2: the worst thing imaginable.

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Speaker 1: Well, and I know that you've experienced that with Golden

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Speaker 1: State Killer, you know, survivors and families and stuff, and

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Speaker 1: you know, I think, what an awful way to see

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Speaker 1: that to get you have to be able to get

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Speaker 1: an inspiration from it. But I think about that too

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Speaker 1: when we talk about our cases and the way that people,

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Speaker 1: particularly in the eighteen hundreds just tracked down killers, and

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Speaker 1: the you know, the detectives with the magnets on the

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Speaker 1: fishing line trying to find desperately find a weapon that's

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Speaker 1: been thrown in the river, and you know, Spillsbury, I

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Speaker 1: think pulling off some like these amazing things in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirties and forties in England. I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: I always am trying to pick out the things that

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Speaker 1: are not the things that I think people find entertaining.

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Speaker 1: I think it's the things that are for me, are

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Speaker 1: touching and that really do show character. And I tell

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Speaker 1: my it's that when you see whether you have grit

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Speaker 1: and what your character is oftentimes is when terrible things

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Speaker 1: are happening, and hopefully terrible things don't happen, but at

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Speaker 1: the same time, it's like, wow, who would have thought

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Speaker 1: that the person could have gotten through that? So I

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Speaker 1: was thinking that you've witnessed so many of those types

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Speaker 1: of stories that you must run into families where you

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Speaker 1: just go, man, I don't know how somebody can do

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Speaker 1: all this, And then it's inspirational.

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Speaker 2: It is, you know, because I think about, you know,

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Speaker 2: what if it happened to somebody that was close to me,

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Speaker 2: you know, how would I respond? Yeah, you know, so

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Speaker 2: to see Stephanie, to see some of these other victims

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Speaker 2: that I've interacted with and how they've used these negative

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Speaker 2: experiences and these tragedies in order to do good afterwards,

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Speaker 2: you know, that's very inspiring.

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Speaker 1: Good. Well, I'm glad to hear some of those. And

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Speaker 1: I wanted to start with that question for you because

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Speaker 1: the story we're going to talk about is one of those,

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Speaker 1: for me, very hard stories. And this is graphic, for

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Speaker 1: even for me graphic. There's a sexual assault, so we're

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Speaker 1: going to do you know, a trigger warning for that.

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Speaker 1: But but particularly some of the details that we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about with the injuries in the murder are difficult, and

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Speaker 1: I just want to tell people that we're going to

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Speaker 1: do a really good job I think of making sure

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Speaker 1: we only include the stuff we need to include. I

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Speaker 1: just really I cannot stand it when I either read

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Speaker 1: or hear or watch something in the true crime space

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Speaker 1: where it's so graphic and there's no point because now

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Speaker 1: I can pick out the things that you would want

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Speaker 1: to hear, and if it's not something that's going to

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Speaker 1: add and it feels gratuitous. I don't think it's good

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Speaker 1: to add you know.

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Speaker 2: Sure, that's that's part of the struggle. Like if I'm

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Speaker 2: listening to a case or being asked about a case.

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Speaker 2: You know, for me, I need to know all no, right,

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Speaker 2: And I'm used to having all you know and and

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Speaker 2: trying to, you know, juggle the true crime aspect versus

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Speaker 2: me doing what I know I can do if I

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Speaker 2: have all the information. That's always been struggle.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I give you all the information, but I

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Speaker 1: really try to think about it as making it not

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Speaker 1: gratuitous because it, boy, it bugs me. Anyway, we are

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Speaker 1: going back to the eighteen hundreds, which makes me very happy.

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Speaker 1: We're going to Pembrook, New Hampshire. So let's go ahead

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Speaker 1: and set the scene. So this is relatively rural New Hampshire.

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Speaker 1: It's eighteen seventy five, and most of the people who

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Speaker 1: live in this area are farmers or they work for

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Speaker 1: one of several nearby mills. And this town is about

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Speaker 1: seven miles away from the city of Concord, which is

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Speaker 1: New Hampshire's capital. So small area. And we're talking about

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Speaker 1: a couple of different towns, and I'll explain why in

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Speaker 1: a little bit. So here's the main family. It's the

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Speaker 1: Langmade family and they live on a farm about two

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Speaker 1: miles outside of Pembrook, so even more rural, and they're

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Speaker 1: in a village called Suncook. They have two kids. One's

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Speaker 1: a girl named Josie who's seventeen, and they have a

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Speaker 1: boy named Waldo love that name, who is sixteen. And

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Speaker 1: both of these kids attend school at the Pembrooke Academy,

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Speaker 1: which is in Pembrooke, in the town. Their normal schedule

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Speaker 1: would be that they would walk together, the sister and

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Speaker 1: the brother, and then they would meet up with one

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Speaker 1: of Josie's friends, who is a girl her age called

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Speaker 1: Lilia Fowler on the way, who is a neighbor. So

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Speaker 1: here's what happens on the day that we need to

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Speaker 1: focus on the morning of October fourth, Josie is running

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Speaker 1: late and her brother Waldo is ahead of her. He says,

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Speaker 1: I've got to go to school. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: be late to school, and she says fine. Lilia waits

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Speaker 1: for Josie. She's there. Josie's there, but Lilia says, I've

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Speaker 1: got to go. I can't be late for school. So

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Speaker 1: she catches a ride into town on a passing wagon,

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Speaker 1: which I guess was the thing. I mean, you just

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Speaker 1: hitch a ride with somebody who's you probably a neighbor.

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Speaker 1: These are small areas. They probably knew each other, so,

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Speaker 1: you know, her brother and her friend had seen her,

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Speaker 1: and obviously Josie's going to be the focus here, and

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Speaker 1: she was at home trying to get out the door.

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Speaker 1: So the path that these kids would normally take would

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Speaker 1: be past all the neighbors' houses and then there's this

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Speaker 1: stretch that goes through some woods. By the afternoon, Josie's

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Speaker 1: parents learn that she never made it to school. So

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Speaker 1: Waldo made it to school, and then Lilia, who caught

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Speaker 1: a ride on a wagon, made it to school. Josie didn't.

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Speaker 1: So this is in the afternoon. The question was once

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Speaker 1: the parents found out, who do they talk to? They

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Speaker 1: talked to the people along the pathway where Josie would

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Speaker 1: have gone by herself, including through the woods, so they said,

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Speaker 1: where's our daughter? Have you seen her this morning? Witnesses

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Speaker 1: in several of these houses, including the one that is

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Speaker 1: the last house before you enter the woods, say they

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Speaker 1: saw her walking that morning when she was, you know,

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Speaker 1: just running a little bit late, she was walking briskly

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Speaker 1: in the direction of the school. The parents find out

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Speaker 1: that she never made it to school. They were talking

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Speaker 1: to the neighbors. The neighbors spread the word. Investigations back

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Speaker 1: then were primarily handled by local constables and city marshals.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to find out because I was thinking, Okay,

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Speaker 1: when are they going to sound the alarm to investigators?

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Speaker 1: But these are you know, these investigators were far flung,

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Speaker 1: especially in these little rural towns, so it looks like

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Speaker 1: they were doing their own investigation. First, the officers worked

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Speaker 1: part time, so they were like tax collectors and officers

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Speaker 1: at the same time. And obviously, you know, they had

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Speaker 1: investigated cases, but this might have been outside their range.

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Speaker 1: So within a half an hour of the parents finding

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Speaker 1: out that their daughter's missing, there's a search party, and

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Speaker 1: over that afternoon and into the evening, one hundred men

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Speaker 1: accumulate to search Josie's route to school, and as the

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Speaker 1: night falls, they used torches to light the way. Before

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Speaker 1: I get to you know the next part of this,

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Speaker 1: I'll say, they're looking at her last movements, and then

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Speaker 1: they do. They form a line by torchlight and sweep

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Speaker 1: the woods, which as somebody who loves sort of darker,

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Speaker 1: kind of creepy things must have been an incredible sight.

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Speaker 1: It's like nighttime grid search. I guess it would depend

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Speaker 1: on the conditions. But would they do grid searches and

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Speaker 1: overnight searches in the middle of the night even today?

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Speaker 1: I mean, is this usually in all if there's somebody

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Speaker 1: who's missing, who's at risk, would it be bad weather

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Speaker 1: or what would stop them from doing something a search

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Speaker 1: at night like this all night?

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Speaker 2: Well, it really is down to the exigency, you know,

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Speaker 2: and here you have a missing girl that's at risk.

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Speaker 2: The people that are in charge of search and rescue

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Speaker 2: will make the decision as to whether the conditions are

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Speaker 2: not viable for the search. But most certainly you see

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Speaker 2: at night, you'll see these types of searches, not with fire,

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Speaker 2: with flashlights, you know, but you have a grid search

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Speaker 2: where everybody is within arm's length of each other, if

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Speaker 2: not a little bit wider spaced, and they are told

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Speaker 2: they have to overlap, you know, they're what they're searching,

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Speaker 2: so everybody's looking. You know, there's multiple eyes on each

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Speaker 2: spot of land that they're walking through. And there's other

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Speaker 2: types of search patterns that can be done, so, you know,

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Speaker 2: back in eighteen seventy five. To be frank, I'm quite

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Speaker 2: impressed that they are doing a grid search. The order

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Speaker 2: of magnitude of how tough it is at night to

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Speaker 2: see versus during the day is huge. You know, you're

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Speaker 2: so much better during the day to see things. But

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Speaker 2: when you have an at risk youth, you do what

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Speaker 2: you can.

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Speaker 1: Well, let me set this scene. They're in these woods.

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Speaker 1: I have a picture of the woods, eighteen seventy five picture,

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Speaker 1: maybe a little bit older, but I know they find

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Speaker 1: our body at nine o'clock, so it's pitch black outside.

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Speaker 1: It's just them with moonlight and starlight and the storches,

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Speaker 1: and they find her about half a mile into the

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Speaker 1: woods from the road. This is twelve hours later. So

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Speaker 1: if you look at your little packet, only look at

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Speaker 1: page one. For me, this to me looks like the

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Speaker 1: road that would be, you know, Academy Road, I believe

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Speaker 1: is where the road that she took to go through

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Speaker 1: these woods.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so this picture is showing God, it's maybe half

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Speaker 2: the width of a standard road today, but it looks

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Speaker 2: like it's dirt. It's going through very dense brush, trees, bushes,

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Speaker 2: you know, it's on both sides of this road, so

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Speaker 2: I can see the road kind of turn to the

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Speaker 2: left in the background and just disappear from sight. You know.

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Speaker 2: So this obviously there's limited visibility, you know, these kids

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Speaker 2: walking down this path, and they would be doing this

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Speaker 2: on a routine basis, you know. So that comes into

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Speaker 2: my mind as whoever killed Josie? You know, is this

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Speaker 2: somebody that knew the pattern and when he saw that

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Speaker 2: she was isolated, which is unusual considering she's normally with

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Speaker 2: her brother and her friend that just was happened to

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Speaker 2: station themselves at a location and sees Josie alone, fully

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Speaker 2: expecting kids to be walking through at this roughly this

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Speaker 2: period of time, you know, or is there somebody that

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Speaker 2: just happens you know, this was Josie a victim of

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Speaker 2: opportunity right now, can't say either way, but most certainly

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Speaker 2: an offender could easily hide along this route and there'd

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Speaker 2: be no witnesses to see that there's somebody there. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it'll be interesting to see what the investigators say

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Speaker 1: about was this a crime of opportunity or what happened.

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Speaker 1: Let me give you the details about what happened with

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Speaker 1: Josie so she's seventeen, and when they come up on her,

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Speaker 1: they immediately note many things. She's been decapitated. Her clothes

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Speaker 1: are badly torn and covered in blood. Her body appears

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Speaker 1: to be badly mutilated, though the full extent is not

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Speaker 1: immediately clear, and they're not touching her. So once they

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Speaker 1: locate her, I'm assuming they have people sit there all

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Speaker 1: night until the next day. The searchers show up, and

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Speaker 1: then we'll have a corner investigator show up too. The

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Speaker 1: next day, they find her head deeper in the woods.

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Speaker 1: It's wrapped in a blue oilcloth cape that she had

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Speaker 1: been wearing when she left the house. Oil Cloth is

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Speaker 1: a fabric that's been coated to make it water repellent,

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Speaker 1: probably like lindseed or something lindseed oil. We're going to

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Speaker 1: have three doctors do the autopsy, which is good. I'm

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Speaker 1: actually impressed with some of the stuff that happens in

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Speaker 1: this case. We talk about investigators all the time, but

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Speaker 1: just at first Blush, they said that her face has

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Speaker 1: been cut, there's a mark on her cheek that resembles

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Speaker 1: a boot heel, other things. Close to the road, the

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Speaker 1: searchers find a broken three foot club. It sounds like

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Speaker 1: it's cracked, but it didn't break into two pieces. The

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Speaker 1: club is made of red oak and an inch and

295
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Speaker 1: a half thick. It appears to have been cut recently.

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Speaker 1: One side of the club seems to have been whittled

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Speaker 1: to form a handle. They also find her schoolwork near

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Speaker 1: this club, and an apple which everybody said she had

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Speaker 1: been carrying earlier that morning. What do you think so far?

300
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Speaker 1: You raise your eyebrows when it was very clear that

301
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Speaker 1: someone had actually carried her head somewhere, not let it

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Speaker 1: roll down the hill or something.

303
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Speaker 2: Well, I think right now. Absent other behavioral indicators, identification

304
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Speaker 2: of the body would often be done by taking a look,

305
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Speaker 2: having people who know the victim, by taking a look

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Speaker 2: at the victim, and obviously the faces the primary feature

307
00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,719
Speaker 2: that people will use to identify who the victim is.

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Speaker 2: The decapitation may have been a way to just delay

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Speaker 2: the identification of the body, but I can't say that

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Speaker 2: with confidence without really knowing more of what happened to her,

311
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Speaker 2: because there may be some very sick reasons that the

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Speaker 2: offender decapitated her. The initial thought, you know, her clothes

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Speaker 2: are torn, of course they're bloody, her body is mutilated,

314
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Speaker 2: and I can extrapolate in terms of the types of mutilation.

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Speaker 2: This is sounding like a type of offender that I've

316
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Speaker 2: seen at work with other victims, both in real life

317
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Speaker 2: as well in my own cases as well as textbook examples.

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Speaker 2: The presence of this three foot club that has a

319
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Speaker 2: handle already whittled into it, I think one of the

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Speaker 2: questions that I have about that is this, is this

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00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:02,520
Speaker 2: an object that has some sort of purpose in you know,

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00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:06,720
Speaker 2: for whatever could be happening in this particular area, or

323
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Speaker 2: was this an object that the offender made in order

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Speaker 2: to hurt somebody? And if that's the case and the

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Speaker 2: offender has that with him, that's showing pre planning.

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Speaker 1: I can tell you this is not the kind of

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Speaker 1: object that would have been produced in these two towns

328
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Speaker 1: that are next to each other, Primbrook, where you know

329
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Speaker 1: she goes to school, and then where she's from. So

330
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Speaker 1: this is a this appears to be custom made.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So you know this This sounds like the offender

332
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Speaker 2: is in this location and is armed with a pre

333
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Speaker 2: manufactured weapon. Could suggest that the offender was lying in

334
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Speaker 2: wait for the right opportunity, and Josie was the right opportunity,

335
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Speaker 2: Because I imagine that it's not just Josie, Lilia and

336
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Speaker 2: Waldo walking to school through this route. There's probably we

337
00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:05,679
Speaker 2: had waves of children that are walking through and so

338
00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:11,119
Speaker 2: here is a source of victim pool and now you

339
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,680
Speaker 2: have a predator going to where the praise at and

340
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:18,320
Speaker 2: just happens at that particular day. Josie, because she was late,

341
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Speaker 2: was the child that was isolated and the predator pounced.

342
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Speaker 1: Well, I was going to save this for a later

343
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Speaker 1: but because you've been talking about it and you've gotten

344
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Speaker 1: so good at mentioning things that I am going to

345
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,440
Speaker 1: tell you about. Like literally, I'll say, oh, I need

346
00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:35,160
Speaker 1: to tell Paul this, and then you'll say it. It's

347
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,399
Speaker 1: like we're right here, Paul, you and me right here.

348
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Speaker 1: I'm going to go ahead and tell you now. So, yes,

349
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Speaker 1: you're right, this is a route that other kids would

350
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Speaker 1: have used. This is an interesting part once the investigation

351
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,760
Speaker 1: really gets going into her murder. A classmate of Josie's

352
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Speaker 1: said that on the day that she was murdered, that

353
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Speaker 1: morning he was walking to school on that same road

354
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Speaker 1: and at the point right before there's a hill that

355
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:02,080
Speaker 1: you climb and you could see the school and then

356
00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,760
Speaker 1: it's literally all downhill. After that, at the point right

357
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,600
Speaker 1: before the final hill, he heard a rustling in the

358
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Speaker 1: bushes by the road. Kids. They liked to hide in

359
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:15,720
Speaker 1: these bushes and jump out at each other, which is

360
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:17,920
Speaker 1: sure a good way to get punched in the face

361
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Speaker 1: as far as I'm concerned. They love to scare each other.

362
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Speaker 1: And that's what the classmate thought it was happening. When

363
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,800
Speaker 1: he heard the wrestling, he said, I know who did this,

364
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Speaker 1: Tom or whoever? Some kid and he said, you know,

365
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,399
Speaker 1: he didn't jump out at him. So he just went

366
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Speaker 1: on to school and said, well, he's going to scare

367
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Speaker 1: the crap out of somebody. But then he got to

368
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Speaker 1: school and that kid was already there, so it wasn't

369
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Speaker 1: Tom or whoever. That kid was Okay. So there's a

370
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Speaker 1: witness who said he heard a rustling and it clearly

371
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Speaker 1: wasn't a classmate, and they had talked to everybody and said,

372
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Speaker 1: now it wasn't me.

373
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Speaker 2: And you said that this was at the top of

374
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Speaker 2: the hill.

375
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Speaker 1: He said, at the point right before the final hill,

376
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Speaker 1: So at the bottom of the hill, and there were bushes.

377
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:58,159
Speaker 1: Well you saw the bushes, I mean.

378
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is where if this is the offender.

379
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:05,320
Speaker 2: And I think you know, it's likely it could have been.

380
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:08,320
Speaker 2: You know, part of the evaluation of this location and

381
00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 2: you put yourself in the offender's mind, is that the

382
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,399
Speaker 2: offender is not going to choose, let's say, a switchback

383
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:18,240
Speaker 2: location where you have no visibility down either stretch of

384
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:20,960
Speaker 2: the road. You don't know who's coming, you know, so

385
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:26,280
Speaker 2: you're going to position yourself where you can see victims approaching,

386
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:30,840
Speaker 2: so you can evaluate the circumstances. Plus you can determine

387
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,320
Speaker 2: further off in the distance, are there other people coming,

388
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:40,159
Speaker 2: and then start plotting. If you see somebody that's isolated,

389
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 2: like Josie, and you look past Josie, because you've purposely

390
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:46,880
Speaker 2: chosen a location where you can see down the road,

391
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,960
Speaker 2: you see nobody is coming from that direction. I now

392
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 2: have my opportunity and the wrestling this classmate, who is

393
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 2: a male classmate. You know, I'm wondering if the offender

394
00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 2: considered this classmate a victim and decided, for one reason

395
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 2: or another not to attack. And it may have been

396
00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,920
Speaker 2: because this was a male and that's not this offender's

397
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 2: preferred victim. It may be that he saw other kids

398
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,639
Speaker 2: starting to approach and backed away. Who knows, you know,

399
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,439
Speaker 2: but this location tends to suggest that, yes, you have

400
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,480
Speaker 2: an offender who knows these kids are flowing through this

401
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,640
Speaker 2: location and just liide and wait until the right opportunity

402
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,479
Speaker 2: presented itself, and unfortunately that was Josie.

403
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 1: Let's keep going something odd that I think will be

404
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:41,440
Speaker 1: important later on. According to some reports, there are twigs

405
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 1: that are found tied together on top of Josie's body.

406
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 1: They're kind of vague reports, but it will pop back

407
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 1: up soon. They don't know what they were used for,

408
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:52,960
Speaker 1: but there were twigs that were tied together and what's

409
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,399
Speaker 1: described as a Frenchman's not. Why I don't know.

410
00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 2: Looking up this Frenchman's not. It's basically a a bowl

411
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 2: and knot with two loops. I know how to tie

412
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 2: a bowl a knot. It's something that can be used

413
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 2: at like camping. It's a knot in which it's very functional.

414
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 2: It's very strong. You know, if you were to tie

415
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 2: it around an object, you know it's going to be

416
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 2: very secure. But it's also a knot that you can

417
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,879
Speaker 2: utilize the loop in order to be able to put

418
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 2: more of the line through to make like a quick

419
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 2: release type of scenario, like using a twig in this

420
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 2: new loop that you put through the existing loop, and

421
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 2: so all you have to do in order to release

422
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 2: whatever the rope is tied around is to remove the

423
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,400
Speaker 2: twig and now you can just boom. You can get

424
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 2: up and go real quick. Now, the use of the

425
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 2: two loops, you know, just with the real brief research

426
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 2: I did watching YouTube video, they indicated it's it's frequently

427
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,880
Speaker 2: used in search and rescue because you can get two

428
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 2: loops around let's say a person's wrist, and so you

429
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 2: have sort of additional an additional safety measure that that

430
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:10,720
Speaker 2: rope is going to hold on to the person while

431
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 2: you're trying to, you know, bring them to safety. So

432
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 2: that's that's my understanding of the Frenchmans. But I am

433
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 2: familiar with the fundamental bowl and not.

434
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: Okay, well, hopefully that'll help us a little bit. Now,

435
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,360
Speaker 1: I told you that they found closer to the road,

436
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,640
Speaker 1: they found this club, and also that they found Josie's

437
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 1: schoolwork in an apple. These were items that were found

438
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: at the bottom of a hill. So I think this

439
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 1: is the hill that the schoolmate was talking about, the

440
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 1: last hill before you hit the school. So they're at

441
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 1: the bottom of the hill. The bushes are left or right.

442
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 1: Were not sure if she had climbed to the top

443
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: of the hill, she could have seen the school and

444
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 1: they could have seen her. So they find this stuff

445
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 1: at the bottom of the hill, right before she would

446
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 1: climb the hill. What they think is that the killer

447
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 1: attacked Josie on that road before she reaches the hill

448
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 1: through the club and you know, all of this other

449
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 1: stuff over it says a stone wall, which I didn't

450
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,719
Speaker 1: see a stone wall anywhere, but then dragging her body

451
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 1: into the woods. I'll have an autopsy report right now

452
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,719
Speaker 1: where they found that she had been sexually assaulted. And

453
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: then one other point before we tell you we commentor

454
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 1: we talk about the autopsy. She had been wearing a

455
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 1: plain gold ring that she always wore. She had worn

456
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 1: a gold enameled breastpin. She had five cents on her

457
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 1: and some other small items that were trinkets and they're

458
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:33,439
Speaker 1: all missing.

459
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 2: Those are souvenirs, you know, So that that really is

460
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 2: informative about this type of offender. This is now a

461
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 2: fantasy motivated offender. He's not taking these items because they

462
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 2: have value. He's taking these items because he has he

463
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 2: wants to hold on to them. They're a source of

464
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 2: memory for him. It's also a feeling a conquest. When

465
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 2: he looks at those items, he knows, you know, he'll

466
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 2: remember basically conquering Josie. So it's very informative about the

467
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 2: mindset of this offender. You know, the location of Josie's

468
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 2: schoolwork and apple, Yes, that suggests that's likely where she

469
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 2: is confronted by the offender, even though the club is there.

470
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,880
Speaker 2: I need to know more about Josie's injuries to determine

471
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 2: what you know, was she you know, was she hit

472
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 2: like over the head with this club at this location.

473
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,640
Speaker 2: It's also possible the offender just used his physical presence

474
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 2: that you know, threatened her with the club and then

475
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 2: made her walk back into the woods, further into the

476
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 2: woods before he attacked her and killed her.

477
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,480
Speaker 1: Okay, get ready for this. So if you all do

478
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,439
Speaker 1: not want to listen to this, I don't blame you.

479
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,400
Speaker 1: There's some pretty brutal details in here, so you can

480
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 1: please feel free to skip ahead. So, Paul, do you

481
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: want me to just kind of go through this or

482
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 1: I'll just stop at every paragraph and you can do

483
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 1: your hum and I'll know and to keep going, or

484
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: if you want to okay, okay, sure. Three doctors conduct

485
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 1: this post war examination. And by the way, in the meantime,

486
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 1: they've hired a detective from Boston who's coming in and

487
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 1: looking at a lot of stuff. So that's good.

488
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 2: Good.

489
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 1: So now we have an actual I mean, I assume

490
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 1: an actual detective who's coming in. Three doctors work on this.

491
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 1: They examine her body. Here's the first thing. They find

492
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 1: that her thumb and several small bones are broken on

493
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 1: her right hand, and they believe that she caught the

494
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: club when the killer was swinging it at her.

495
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, defensive injuries.

496
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: It looks like she was struck twice, once on either

497
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 1: side of her head, and the doctors believe that the

498
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 1: boot heel impression was from the killer jumping on her head.

499
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I don't know how they're concluding jumping or

500
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 2: stomping or you know, holding her down, you know, with

501
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 2: the bottom of his foot. Yes, I don't think you

502
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 2: can draw that conclusion, but you can draw a conclusion that,

503
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 2: you know, yeah, he put her foot on her head

504
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 2: with force.

505
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 1: And they see this mark and said immediately it's a

506
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 1: boot heel that's on her heart. She okay, remember that

507
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: investigator said that after he had subdued Josie close to

508
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: the road, he dragged her further into the woods. They

509
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 1: think she was still alive when this happened. Once away

510
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: from the main road. There are definite signs that she

511
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: had been sexually assaulted. Why do you think that they

512
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 1: would think that she was still alive? Would you see

513
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 1: more like that she was fighting as she's being dragged

514
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: or what would give them that indication?

515
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 2: Do you think, Well, it's possible, you know, in terms

516
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 2: of her being still being alive, it may be because

517
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 2: of the assessment of the injuries to her head from

518
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 2: the club were not significant enough that the pathologist or

519
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 2: these doctors felt would have caused death. So that's one possibility.

520
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 2: There's also the possibility that there is a trail of

521
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 2: blood that suggests that there's still active bleeding going on

522
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 2: where you know, if she has an open wound and

523
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 2: there's significant bleeding that person along the length of this trail,

524
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 2: that her heart is still pumping. So there may be

525
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 2: several factors that they're they're looking at. And then it's

526
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 2: also well, what's going on at the sexual assault location.

527
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 2: And then ultimately you've told me previously you have body mutilation.

528
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 2: Was there, you know, a knife being used. Does it

529
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 2: look like she has defensive injuries as a result of

530
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 2: the you know, a knife or whatever is going on.

531
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 2: So there'd be multiple things that they could be relying

532
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 2: upon to say she's still alive at this location where

533
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 2: her body is found.

534
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: Okay, here are the last bits that I think are

535
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 1: the most difficult. I want to preface this by saying

536
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 1: that they aren't sure whether any of this stuff happened

537
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: aside from the sexual assault, before she died or after

538
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,479
Speaker 1: she died. But I mean, what I think is good

539
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: about these three doctors is they don't seem to be

540
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,959
Speaker 1: assuming too much. There's a lot of this is what

541
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 1: we think, but we're not sure and we need more evidence.

542
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 1: They said that the killer ripped and cut at her clothes,

543
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: so this was in the woods, that he gashed her

544
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 1: body and mutilated her. But the newspapers, i'm sure, out

545
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: of propriety, don't describe the injuries in great detail. But

546
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: what the doctors say is that her volva had been

547
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: mutilated and partially cut away. The doctors say that the

548
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 1: killer used a knife or some kind of sharp instrument

549
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 1: to slit her cheek, her ear and her lip. They

550
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 1: do not know what kind of knife. I don't even

551
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 1: think they want to try to guess. They think that

552
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: she was alive when her head was cut off using

553
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 1: that same knife or a sharp instrument. And one more

554
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: line before you react to that her head had been

555
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: cut off at the shoulders, They say this was done

556
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: skillfully because of the way the first and second vertebrae

557
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 1: were separated.

558
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,239
Speaker 2: So this is a sexual statist and that's exactly what

559
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 2: I thought was going on. You know, he in essence,

560
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 2: this is the worst type of offender that any victor

561
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 2: whatever want to be confronted by, because he gets sexual

562
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 2: pleasure out of out of torture, out of inflicting fear

563
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 2: and doing these extreme violence while the victim is still alive.

564
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 2: You know, Josie's last moments were horrific. You know, the mutilation.

565
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 2: You know, part of that is the sadism that's going on.

566
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 2: Part of that, you know, some of the sort of

567
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 2: the behavioral experts, you know, they talk about this defeminization

568
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 2: and I'm not going to go into details, but this

569
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 2: is where specific parts of the female anatomy are targeted

570
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 2: by the offender. And let's just say obliterated or remove

571
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 2: from the victim's body, and it it's something that has hapened.

572
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 2: You know, I've seen it in person. I've there's plenty

573
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 2: of textbook examples of this type of offender. He's a

574
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 2: serial predator, there's no question about it. Now. Has he

575
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 2: committed other attacks prior or other attacks afterwards? You know,

576
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 2: I can't say that. But he is motivated by fantasy.

577
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 2: His fantasy is to inflict sadistic acts on his victim

578
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 2: and have them writhe in pain and scream out in

579
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 2: pain and be in fear before he kills them. And

580
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 2: then you know, the decapitation. You know, there may be

581
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:19,719
Speaker 2: just what we would call an mo aspect to it

582
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 2: is to delay identification of Josie. You know this again,

583
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 2: this is a you know, it's eighteen seventy five, and

584
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 2: it just really underscores that this type of predator existed

585
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 2: before we even knew what a serial killer was or

586
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 2: that term was, right, That was really not until the

587
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 2: nineteen seventies that that term was even applied or used.

588
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 2: I go back that you think about the lore of

589
00:33:53,440 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 2: these various monsters, the werewolfs, the vampires, Well, some of

590
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 2: the victims of these monsters are probably victims of this

591
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 2: type of predator, and people didn't know what they were

592
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 2: looking at when they came across them, and they had

593
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,719
Speaker 2: to come up with an explanation. Must have been a warewolf,

594
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 2: must have been a vampire. But the reality is is

595
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 2: that these predators have existed since the dawn of time.

596
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, well this was so brutal. Oh what about the

597
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: did you talk about this the second and the first vertebrae?

598
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: They thought it was done skillfully.

599
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 2: Must be somebody medically trained type of dismemberment, right, because

600
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 2: they're not right. They're noticing, right, they're noticing, Oh, this

601
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 2: this person is cutting through the easy part of the

602
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,280
Speaker 2: neck in order to remove her head. You know, it's

603
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 2: in between the vertebrae. This may suggest that you have

604
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 2: somebody that has some training. I wouldn't say it necessarily medical,

605
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,359
Speaker 2: but it could be because they're you know, they've they've

606
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 2: butchered animals. They're a hunter. You know, they understand that,

607
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:01,240
Speaker 2: but also understand this type of predator probably has killed

608
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 2: animals prior and has dismembered these animals and then learns, well,

609
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 2: the knife isn't going to go through the vertebrae. So

610
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 2: I have to go in between the vertebrae to get

611
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 2: this animal's head off. They learn this just because this

612
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 2: is what they're doing. It's like a Jeffrey Dahmer, you know,

613
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 2: who's butchering animals and putting there. You know, I think

614
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:24,919
Speaker 2: I remember a picture of a dog's head being put

615
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 2: on a steak. He's got experience with animal anatomy, and

616
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 2: so of course that translates into dismembering humans. So it

617
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:37,359
Speaker 2: really to me, It just suggests that this offender has

618
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 2: probably dismembered animal and or humans before.

619
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 1: Well, I can tell you in the eighteen hundreds, I

620
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: would have a hard time finding a man who hadn't

621
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 1: at some point had to break down the carcass of

622
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,800
Speaker 1: an animal. You know, I guess if you were extremely wealthy,

623
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: but not out here in the rural area. So that

624
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,760
Speaker 1: wouldn't surprise me these days, yes, but not then. Okay, well,

625
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: I'm glad we've made it through that autopsy. As I

626
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 1: had mentioned before, the townspeople hire a detective from Boston.

627
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 1: The news goes everywhere, of course, and there are several

628
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 1: people of interests that are identified and arrested. Of course,

629
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 1: they shake down what they call tramps, which are the

630
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: homeless or itinerant men. The only black man in one

631
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,800
Speaker 1: of these small towns is arrested and comes to nothing.

632
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,800
Speaker 1: None of this happens. Everybody has alibis. The leads go

633
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: nowhere until this story gets really, for me, disturbing, and

634
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 1: not in a violent way necessarily, but in a just

635
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,359
Speaker 1: a weird, creepy way. So here we go. We start

636
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,399
Speaker 1: to have a suspect pretty quickly, even though they've sort

637
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 1: of looked through all of these different people who are

638
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: more likely suspects. They start to home in on this

639
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: guy who worked for the friend Lilia. Her dad would

640
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 1: hire people to do farm work, and there was an

641
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 1: odd man who was there. So I'll give you all

642
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 1: the context. So this is Josie's friend Lilia. She was

643
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 1: one who was supposed to go to school but she

644
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 1: called a ride instead. Their neighbors. Lilia's Father's name is

645
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:15,240
Speaker 1: true Worthy Fowler, great name. So Fowler has hired several

646
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: men to do farm work the day before Josie's murder,

647
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:23,200
Speaker 1: and among this group of men is someone who mister

648
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 1: Fowler doesn't know his real name, but people call him

649
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 1: the Frenchman. While they're working the Frenchman sees Lilia. This

650
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 1: is not Josie, it's Lelia coming home on the road

651
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 1: from school one afternoon. He asks her brother, who was

652
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 1: working with the men on this project, which route that

653
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 1: his sister Lilia takes to get to school. And then,

654
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,320
Speaker 1: of course you know the story of the classmates saying

655
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 1: that there was somebody in the bushes. And now, of

656
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: course the detective and other authorities think that this guy

657
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 1: who nobody knows his real name, was waiting in the

658
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 1: woods Frenchman, and he was actually targeting Leah, not Josie.

659
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,720
Speaker 1: But Lilia gets a ride to school on a passing

660
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 1: carriage and Josie comes instead, so that's what they think happened.

661
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,440
Speaker 1: The issue, of course, is this guy's long gone, so

662
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 1: what do you think about that?

663
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,800
Speaker 2: It's entirely plausible, but it's just, I think, one of

664
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 2: many possibilities. But of course he's a suspect because why

665
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 2: is he asking about the route that Lily is taking

666
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 2: to school, back and forth to school. That's showing a

667
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 2: unusual level of interest in the details about this young girl,

668
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 2: you know, and her whereabouts. So it's possible that, yeah,

669
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 2: he planned on making Lily a victim. If the circumstances

670
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 2: were right, and then that morning Lily was not somebody

671
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 2: that he would be able to victimize. And while he's

672
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,839
Speaker 2: out there, Josie presented herself, if you will, in terms

673
00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 2: of of walking to school, not far behind the other kids,

674
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 2: but still isolated.

675
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 1: Okay, well let's start putting this together. And this is

676
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 1: where I become impressed with some of the folks here

677
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 1: in New Hampshire. October eighth, we're going to go back

678
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 1: a little bit. This is three days after Josie's murder.

679
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:25,800
Speaker 1: True Worthy Fowler comes into play. Lilia's dad. So remember

680
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 1: he knows this information. I think his son had said, well,

681
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 1: you're weird. Guy who now has gone as of the

682
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 1: day that Josie was murdered, asked this question about Leah.

683
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: He has this information in his head. Fowler happens to

684
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: be what's called a selectman of Suncook, where everybody's from,

685
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:49,359
Speaker 1: and it's like a mayor. So three days later, while

686
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 1: he's ruminating on all of this and this mystery Frenchman,

687
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:55,839
Speaker 1: he gets a letter from a judge in the town

688
00:39:55,920 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 1: of Saint Albans, Vermont, which is close to Canada. I'm

689
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 1: sure you know the letter is from a judge who says,

690
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 1: you need to hear about this. There's a murder that

691
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 1: happened in Saint Albans and it sounds kind of like

692
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: what happened in your town. To Josie. The judge says

693
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:19,320
Speaker 1: that about a year earlier, the evening of Friday, July

694
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: twenty fourth, eighteen seventy four, there's a young school teacher

695
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: named Marietta Ball. She is at the school building where

696
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:29,839
Speaker 1: she works. This is at night. She locks up by

697
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,760
Speaker 1: herself and she sets off on a one mile walk

698
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: to a friend's house. Part of the walk is through

699
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 1: a wooded area. The road is not heavily trafficked. She

700
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 1: never made it to the friend's house. Her body was

701
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 1: found about halfway between the school where she locked up

702
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 1: in the friend's house. She was found off the road

703
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 1: in the woods. It's they say forty yards. I like

704
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,839
Speaker 1: it when they say rods. It's forty rods into the woods.

705
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 1: You know that is now sixteen and a half feet

706
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 1: per rod, So it's you know, six hundred and sixty

707
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 1: feet off the road and into the woods. Evidence she

708
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 1: had been raped. Marietta has described, I don't know what

709
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 1: this means. Uncommon muscular strength. There are a lot of signs,

710
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,919
Speaker 1: according to the medical examiner or the corner there, that

711
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 1: Marietta fought very hard against the attacker, but we don't

712
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 1: have a lot of information about the autopsy. There's a

713
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 1: mask that's found near Marietta's body. It's made out of

714
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 1: carpet and has strings that have been tied in what's

715
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 1: described as a Frenchman's not, which is the way that

716
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 1: the twigs were tied above Josie's body. A year later,

717
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 1: there you go, So what do you think about all.

718
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:42,240
Speaker 2: That well as Frenchman's not? You know, the commonality between

719
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 2: the two victims, You know, I think that's that's reasonably significant.

720
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 2: I don't know how much weight to put on that,

721
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:54,879
Speaker 2: because I don't know back then in terms of, you know,

722
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 2: how common was it this particular not being used. I

723
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,919
Speaker 2: would tell you today that would be hugely significant, because

724
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,279
Speaker 2: you just never see that in all the cases in

725
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:11,239
Speaker 2: which I've had knots. The reality is is that, with

726
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 2: the exception of one case, which wasn't even my case,

727
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 2: it was one out of Coronado, most of these knots

728
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 2: are what i'd call cluster knots. These are just the

729
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 2: offender tying half hitches on top of half hitches. I've

730
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 2: got neo shoelace knots, you know, whether it be a

731
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,799
Speaker 2: granny knot or a square knot, which is basically the

732
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 2: same thing except to some slight differences in terms of

733
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,840
Speaker 2: how they're tied. That's what you see. And so the

734
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:42,319
Speaker 2: use of a specialized knot like the Frenchman's knot. Right now,

735
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 2: I go, yeah, there's significance that in both victims that

736
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 2: this knot is present. Both victims have. The where they're

737
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 2: attacked in the woods is similar. It's like a lying

738
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 2: in weight and the offender is comfortable utilizing let's say

739
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 2: the brush or the trees in order to hide. You've

740
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 2: got sexual assault in both cases. In Marietta's case, you're

741
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 2: not talking about any of the mutilation or the kind

742
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 2: of the sadistic aspects that we see in Josie's case.

743
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 2: But it sounds like we don't have those types of details,

744
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 2: because that for me would in essence if there was

745
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 2: similar mutilation occurring where I'm going, yeah, this is a

746
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 2: sexual statist at work that I would say the same

747
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 2: offender killed both of these women. Right now, It's say

748
00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:38,880
Speaker 2: it's likely these cases are related. I'd want more of

749
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 2: those types of behavioral details in order to say yes,

750
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 2: these are definitely related.

751
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 1: Okay, well, let me tell you what they think in

752
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 1: Vermont about who did this to Marietta and why it's

753
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 1: so alarming that they're contacting you. This mayor in New Hampshire,

754
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 1: the authorities in Saint Almonds was certain it was a

755
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 1: guy named Joseph Lapage that had killed Marietta. There wasn't

756
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 1: enough evidence to bring him to trial, according to this judge,

757
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:13,880
Speaker 1: but there circumstantially they thought it was him. I actually

758
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:15,360
Speaker 1: honestly don't know why.

759
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:16,799
Speaker 2: But it's a French name.

760
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 1: Well, he's from Quebec, Okay, and he was a wood

761
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 1: cutter if you remember the club.

762
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 2: Yeah. So well this is where you know, you have

763
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:31,879
Speaker 2: this nebulous suspect, you know, this hired worker that they

764
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 2: refer to as a frenchman in Josie's case, and now

765
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 2: you have this Joseph Lapage as a suspect in a

766
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:43,640
Speaker 2: similar case. French name from Quebec, you know. So there's

767
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 2: some overlapping characteristics with suspects. In the suspect characteristics within

768
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 2: these two cases.

769
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 1: I think most Crucially, he had since Marietta's murder, Joseph

770
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:58,520
Speaker 1: Lapage and his family had moved to sun Cook, New Hampshire,

771
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 1: where Josie was from, so he's.

772
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 2: In the area. So now now, now we have geographic

773
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 2: connections between the two cases, the suspect in the two cases. Okay,

774
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 2: this is churn. I always describe this, you know, because

775
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 2: having worked massive cases like Golden State Killer, you're looking

776
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 2: at different men all the time as suspects, and some

777
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:24,840
Speaker 2: of these guys it's like just static. No matter how

778
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 2: what you look, where you look about this particular suspect,

779
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,280
Speaker 2: nothing seems to do anything. It's just that there's nothing

780
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 2: going on with this guy in terms of elevating him

781
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 2: as a suspect. But then you come across somebody and

782
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 2: all of a sudden there's some connections being made. And

783
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:43,920
Speaker 2: then this is where you have some churn. And this

784
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 2: is where what I'm saying with this Joseph Lapage, it's like, oh,

785
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,799
Speaker 2: there's churn here. Now is he the killer? I can't

786
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 2: say that right now, but you know what's there's enough

787
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 2: here where he's he's percolating to the top and is

788
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:57,320
Speaker 2: going to get my full attention.

789
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 1: M m well, here we go. October thirteenth, the authorities

790
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 1: from New Hampshire Attorney General's Office arrest Joseph at his house.

791
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 1: He has his wife with him and four of his

792
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 1: five kids, and they search the house. They find a

793
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,320
Speaker 1: coat with bloodstains on it and a pair of boots,

794
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 1: and the heel of the boot matches the mark on

795
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 1: Josie's cheek. I mean, I'm sure you could throw a

796
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 1: rock and hit somebody you had those kind of boots.

797
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 1: But still he has boots, pointy boots. It sounds like

798
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:32,800
Speaker 1: so the local French community feels like Joseph is being

799
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,800
Speaker 1: unfairly scapegoated. That doesn't surprise me. One of the community

800
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 1: leaders tells the police, wait a second. This guy was

801
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:42,760
Speaker 1: with me all day on the day of Josie's murder,

802
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 1: so you got to leave him alone. The problem was

803
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 1: that when Joseph was with the police, he said, I

804
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 1: was lost in the woods all day during that time,

805
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 1: at the worst outbi. But I have said I often

806
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 1: have terrible outbies if something out and I was accused

807
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 1: of murder, so driving around in a circle in my

808
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:07,680
Speaker 1: neighborhood listening to Taylor Swift, So you know this is

809
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 1: why alibi witnesses can be unreliable. I just couldn't believe it.

810
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 2: So there you go.

811
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 1: And we've talked about this, communities coming together to get

812
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 1: behind people even though they're sure they're guilty, and oftentimes

813
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 1: it's based on ethnicity or some you know, religion or

814
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 1: some kind of common factor where they're on the defensive, right.

815
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:30,359
Speaker 2: Right, right, No, absolutely, the.

816
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 1: Police say anyway, and they put them on trial January

817
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 1: of eighteen seventy six. So now we get even more

818
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 1: background on Joseph. He's got a sister in law, so

819
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 1: it's his wife's sister. She travels from Quebec to testify

820
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:50,359
Speaker 1: against him. So she says, in eighteen seventy one, so

821
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:54,320
Speaker 1: this would be eighteen seventy one, would be three years

822
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:58,439
Speaker 1: before Marietta, four years before Josie. In eighteen seventy one,

823
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 1: a masked man in Quebec threatened her with a club

824
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 1: and a cow pasture and raped her. So he was

825
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 1: wearing a mask that I had to look up, a

826
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:15,319
Speaker 1: buffalo robe mask, which is cured buffalo hide that still

827
00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: has the hair on it. Must have been absolutely terrifying

828
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 1: among everything else that was happening. She rips off the

829
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 1: mask and sees it's Joseph, and nothing happens to him.

830
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:27,080
Speaker 1: I don't know if she doesn't, you know, because of

831
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 1: her sister, she doesn't report it or what happens. But

832
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 1: at least one person confirms his identity in a violent attack.

833
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, then there's I mean, obviously there's overlap.

834
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 1: Maah.

835
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:43,479
Speaker 2: Here you have a club being used, and we see

836
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 2: the club being used in Josie's case, you see a

837
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 2: mask being used in Marietta's case. You have the geographic

838
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 2: connections of Joseph lapage between those two cases. And now

839
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 2: you have a sister in law offering a details on

840
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:05,680
Speaker 2: her attacker that overlap with the Josie and Marietta cases.

841
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 2: He's attacking her out in a cow pastor. He's he's

842
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:12,880
Speaker 2: comfortable outside. He's not the Golden State killer who's comfortable

843
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 2: breaking into houses and attacking people inside the house. He

844
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,320
Speaker 2: likes to work in the outdoors. And these are sexually

845
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:22,720
Speaker 2: motivated crimes. Now, you know, for me, it's the The

846
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 2: interesting aspect is with the sister in law and Marietta.

847
00:49:27,719 --> 00:49:30,799
Speaker 2: It doesn't we don't have information that is indicating the

848
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:35,280
Speaker 2: sadistic aspects and sadism can you know you can still

849
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 2: the sexual assault can be sadistic in and of itself

850
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 2: in terms of I mean people say, of course, you know,

851
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 2: any sexual assault is sadistic. But when I use that

852
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 2: term sadistic, I am talking about a very very narrowly

853
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 2: defined set of behavioral criteria characteristics that indicates that this

854
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 2: person is getting sexual gratification through the you know, literally

855
00:49:55,719 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 2: the physical and psychological violence that they are doing versus

856
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 2: the sexual act in and of itself. But Josie is

857
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 2: sexually mutilated, and she's mutilated before she's killed, you know,

858
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:12,759
Speaker 2: So this is those sadistic acts. So do we have

859
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 2: an offender that is actually escalating in his fantasy and

860
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 2: is really starting to display the sexual sadism that we

861
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 2: see in Josie at that point in time and didn't

862
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 2: display it fully in the prior cases.

863
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it seems definitely like escalation to me. Gosh,

864
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 1: he is keeping his trap shut this whole time through

865
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:41,799
Speaker 1: this trial. So he is initially found guilty of first

866
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:45,360
Speaker 1: degree murder. His lawyer appeals on the grounds that some

867
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 1: of the testimony and the trial should have been inadmissible.

868
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter because when he wins the appeal, but

869
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:55,479
Speaker 1: then there's another trial and he's convicted. He's sentenced to death.

870
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 1: So then the question is what happens. Do we learn

871
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 1: anything else from Joseph, and we do thanks to a priest.

872
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 1: You know, the French community is in denial. I don't

873
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 1: know if his wife is or his kids are. But

874
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 1: the day before he's supposed to be executed, which is

875
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:17,239
Speaker 1: March of eighteen seventy eight, so this kind of surprises me.

876
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 1: He's a lie for another two years. So maybe this

877
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:23,320
Speaker 1: was a a you know, jump in appeals or something,

878
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:26,320
Speaker 1: but usually this would have been quick. Maybe New Hampshire

879
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:29,160
Speaker 1: was more progressive. I don't know. So he's a lie

880
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:31,879
Speaker 1: for two more years. On death row, the priest comes

881
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 1: in and he's set to be executed by hanging, and

882
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 1: he confesses. And the priest of course would not be

883
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 1: able to reveal information that Joseph said, but he convinces

884
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 1: Joseph to confess to the police. He confesses to the

885
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:51,200
Speaker 1: murders of Josie and Marietta. And you were right about this, Paul.

886
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:53,360
Speaker 1: Sometimes when I think people take things, oh they're going

887
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:56,239
Speaker 1: to go hawk them there, maybe they aren't, you know,

888
00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 1: trinkets or memorabilia or trophies or any of that. But

889
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 1: he tells him where to find in the woods Josie's

890
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:05,840
Speaker 1: possessions like the ring and the breastpin and stuff. He

891
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 1: had hidden them, and he told him exactly where to look.

892
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:12,799
Speaker 1: So he is executed. And there's a little bit of

893
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:15,960
Speaker 1: a PostScript here. He's executed and then he becomes a

894
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 1: suspect in two eighteen sixty seven unsolved murders that happened

895
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 1: in Quebec. So these predate by four years the attack

896
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 1: on the sister in law. He had been in the

897
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:29,720
Speaker 1: town when they happened, at the time when they happened,

898
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:32,880
Speaker 1: and so he's dead at this point, there's no information.

899
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 1: Obviously they were able to get some information out of

900
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:39,319
Speaker 1: them before. So it's a shame in this only to me,

901
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 1: in this circumstance, that he was executed, because if they

902
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:44,400
Speaker 1: really thought he was a suspect, I mean, maybe they

903
00:52:44,440 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 1: could have gotten more information and closure from families, but

904
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 1: too right now.

905
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:53,319
Speaker 2: You know, and I would guess he has others up

906
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:57,799
Speaker 2: and beyond those, you know, and imagine, I mean, this

907
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 2: is obviously they don't have DNA to link these cases together.

908
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 2: They really have a poor understanding of this type of

909
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 2: sexual predators, so they're not necessarily recognizing that this is

910
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 2: a behavioral characteristic that would be predictive that you are

911
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:22,040
Speaker 2: dealing with somebody who is a serial killer, serial rapist,

912
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 2: serial killer, and so you probably have other communities that

913
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:29,240
Speaker 2: this guy, whether he had a connection or he flowed

914
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 2: through and has committed similar crimes, and nobody's put two

915
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 2: and two together that this is this is their killer. So,

916
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:40,880
Speaker 2: you know, I think they did a remarkable job in

917
00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:45,319
Speaker 2: terms of figuring out who Josie and Marietta's killer was

918
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:47,600
Speaker 2: to be frank, you know, for this day and age

919
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:50,720
Speaker 2: and for the limitations that they had. But I think,

920
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:54,480
Speaker 2: you know, like the message that I want to underscore

921
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:57,080
Speaker 2: in maybe some of our listeners, this is the first

922
00:53:57,120 --> 00:54:01,000
Speaker 2: time they've ever heard about, you know, the bruteality that

923
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:04,680
Speaker 2: some of these offenders do to their victims. And this

924
00:54:04,719 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 2: is where I you know, we always want to tell

925
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:09,400
Speaker 2: our kids there's no such thing as monsters, but the

926
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:13,320
Speaker 2: reality is there are monsters, and these guys are the monsters.

927
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 2: And to see what they do firsthand to their victims,

928
00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:21,880
Speaker 2: it's absolutely horrific and I wish there was a way

929
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:24,440
Speaker 2: to find them all and get them all off the

930
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:27,719
Speaker 2: street and prevent these guys from being out there. But

931
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 2: there just isn't and you just have to be you

932
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:34,320
Speaker 2: have to be aware and keep yourself safe.

933
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:39,840
Speaker 1: I mean, what a story. And I'm always looking for heroes.

934
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:42,960
Speaker 1: And clearly the judge put it together. I mean, the

935
00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:46,759
Speaker 1: judge in Vermont read this story and was thinking, this

936
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:50,279
Speaker 1: sounds familiar. This obviously happened. I don't know if the

937
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:53,120
Speaker 1: news from what happened with Marietta Ball didn't make it

938
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:56,480
Speaker 1: down to New Hampshire and this detective didn't put it together.

939
00:54:56,600 --> 00:55:00,359
Speaker 1: This seems similar. But you know, being able to get

940
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 1: information from him from Joseph right before his execution with

941
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,359
Speaker 1: the priest, and then you know, turning this information over

942
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 1: getting him, convincing Joseph to confess to the police. I mean,

943
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:14,799
Speaker 1: some of the stuff does go above and beyond. They

944
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:16,880
Speaker 1: wouldn't have caught him if it weren't for the judge,

945
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:21,920
Speaker 1: obviously sure, and for the almost victim's father to be

946
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:24,360
Speaker 1: in a position in the community where he would have

947
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:26,840
Speaker 1: been the one to receive this information from the judge.

948
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:30,840
Speaker 1: So you know, we talk about jurisdiction issues today and

949
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 1: there's just it. You know, we've got two communities reaching

950
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:36,879
Speaker 1: out to each other and getting information in eighteen seventy five,

951
00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:38,320
Speaker 1: which to me is pretty amazing.

952
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:41,279
Speaker 2: That's impressive, you know, And I actually put a lot

953
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 2: of stock into the strength the sister in law had.

954
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

955
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 2: Absolutely, because Amy, she's going against you know, her own

956
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:57,439
Speaker 2: sister to go testify against her sister's husband and is

957
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 2: putting it out there that she was a rape victim

958
00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:03,239
Speaker 2: of this guy. You know, so there's a lot of

959
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:07,360
Speaker 2: barriers she had to overcome to have the strength and

960
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:10,239
Speaker 2: the courage to get on the stand to testify against

961
00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:12,279
Speaker 2: you know, her brother in law.

962
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and picking up on things like the classmate who said, yeah,

963
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:20,320
Speaker 1: I thought that was weird that somebody was in the bushes.

964
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 1: I mean, you're you have all of these people who

965
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 1: are able, the neighbors who are noticing Josie, you know.

966
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:28,799
Speaker 1: I mean these are small communities were generally now, but

967
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 1: especially in the eighteen hundreds, people are looking out for

968
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:35,600
Speaker 1: each other very closely, so you can see everything happening,

969
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:38,600
Speaker 1: what happens to her, even though she's alone at the

970
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:42,200
Speaker 1: time when she unfortunately encounters this guy. You know, we've

971
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:44,799
Speaker 1: got enough people who have an eye out and are

972
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 1: putting pieces together pretty quickly. I was surprised. This is

973
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:51,680
Speaker 1: a very upsetting story, but also in a lot of

974
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 1: ways inspirational that you have all of these people thinking, Okay,

975
00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:56,440
Speaker 1: what do we need the priest. We've got to get

976
00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 1: a confession out of this guy, you know, And I'm

977
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:01,759
Speaker 1: frustrated that they acute to him, and now we don't

978
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 1: know what's going on with these other cases.

979
00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:07,240
Speaker 2: Sure, you know, and I think from an investigative side,

980
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 2: early on, when you were talking about the route that

981
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:12,160
Speaker 2: the kids would would take and they're walking through a

982
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:14,960
Speaker 2: neighborhood and then going through the woods, you know, for me,

983
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 2: I immediately was binning two different suspect pools. And one

984
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:24,840
Speaker 2: of the common suspect pools is somebody who lives along

985
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:27,760
Speaker 2: the route and is watching these kids day in and

986
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 2: day out and they just happen to be somebody that's

987
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:33,200
Speaker 2: willing to victimize. And then the other route, and this

988
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:36,360
Speaker 2: is what this Joseph la Page, this other suspect pool,

989
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:40,120
Speaker 2: this Joseph la Page fell into, is that, well, what

990
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:43,520
Speaker 2: is the transient population in the area, you know, And

991
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:48,160
Speaker 2: you have to think about that very early on in

992
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 2: the investigations, so you can now start capitalizing on information

993
00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:56,320
Speaker 2: that witnesses may have as to who has flowed in

994
00:57:56,480 --> 00:58:00,960
Speaker 2: and out of your community. Nowadays, some times we get

995
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:05,760
Speaker 2: that off of surveillance cameras and stuff. Back then it's well,

996
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:09,160
Speaker 2: who's been here? And it turns out, you know, Lily's

997
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:12,840
Speaker 2: dad was hiring this you know, pool of transience, if

998
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:17,200
Speaker 2: you will, and brought Joseph Lapage into contact with his daughter.

999
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:21,240
Speaker 1: I still don't understand about the Frenchman's not on the twigs.

1000
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:23,280
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe that was some kind of rumor, but

1001
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:25,280
Speaker 1: I don't I don't think so. I'm not sure what

1002
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 1: that what he was thinking with that.

1003
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:31,000
Speaker 2: You know, the bowlan knot is a very very versatile

1004
00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 2: knot and it's a you know, of course, I'd like

1005
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:35,840
Speaker 2: to see how it was used to tie these twigs up,

1006
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:39,160
Speaker 2: but you know, it just it just tells me this

1007
00:58:39,200 --> 00:58:41,360
Speaker 2: is a knot he is familiar with with being able

1008
00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:43,080
Speaker 2: to tie. I can tie a bowl of knot, and

1009
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:45,160
Speaker 2: now that I've seen how a Frenchman's knot is tied,

1010
00:58:45,680 --> 00:58:49,120
Speaker 2: I can tie a Frenchman's not, you know, So it's

1011
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 2: I don't think it's anything that's behaviorally significant what he's doing.

1012
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:55,560
Speaker 2: It's just a knot he's familiar with, and it's an

1013
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:59,520
Speaker 2: he knows will be suitable for this particular application.

1014
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:04,240
Speaker 1: Well, when I first thought about the story, I was

1015
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:06,480
Speaker 1: not thinking this was going to be a serial killer story.

1016
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:08,360
Speaker 1: And then I started reading it and thought, oh my gosh,

1017
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 1: a serial killer from eighteen seventy five. You know, it's incredible.

1018
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:15,120
Speaker 2: Well, and this is the same type of offender as

1019
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:15,880
Speaker 2: Jack the Ripper.

1020
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:18,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the same ones that we're getting every you know,

1021
00:59:19,400 --> 00:59:22,240
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five too. And that's the point, Yep.

1022
00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 1: These guys have just like exactly what you said. These

1023
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:28,440
Speaker 1: guys have been around since the beginning of time. Well, Paul,

1024
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:31,120
Speaker 1: hopefully no serial killers next week, but I guess we're

1025
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:34,360
Speaker 1: going to see. I like the serial killer story every

1026
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:37,600
Speaker 1: once in a while, but I uh, sometimes I need

1027
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:39,560
Speaker 1: a little bit of a break. And that was a

1028
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:41,760
Speaker 1: hard one. But you did a great job giving me

1029
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:42,320
Speaker 1: some insight.

1030
00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:45,600
Speaker 2: Thank you. Yeah, Well you can always throw a serial

1031
00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:47,280
Speaker 2: killer case at me anytime, Kate.

1032
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:51,880
Speaker 1: Okay, good to know. Okay, I will see you next week.

1033
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:57,880
Speaker 2: All right, sounds good. Take care bye.

1034
00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:01,760
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for our sources

1035
01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:05,280
Speaker 1: and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot com slash Buried

1036
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:08,920
Speaker 1: Bones Sources. Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

1037
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:13,480
Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1038
01:00:13,720 --> 01:00:16,000
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

1039
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:18,560
Speaker 2: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1040
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:20,880
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1041
01:00:21,120 --> 01:00:25,240
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Danielle Kramer.

1042
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:28,919
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1043
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:30,160
Speaker 1: Barry Bones Pod.

1044
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1045
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:35,200
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1046
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:37,440
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now, and

1047
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 1: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold

1048
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:43,680
Speaker 1: Cases is also available now