1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio and Unboss Creative, I'm Brigittad and 3 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: this is there Are No Girls on the Internet. In 4 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: the wake of the murders of armed black people like 5 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: Brianna Taylor, Tony mcdaide, and George Floyd, test companies changed 6 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: their logos to Black Squares and put out statements up 7 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: farming their commitment to Black lives Matter. But many of 8 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 1: those same companies have spent the last few years pretending 9 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: that their platforms and technology have nothing to do with 10 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: politics and pretty much just trying to stay out of it. 11 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: Last week, two protesters in Kenosha, Wisconsin were shot and 12 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: killed by Kyle Rittenhouse, a seventeen year old vigilante who 13 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: traveled to the protests with an illegal weapon. The Verge 14 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: reported that Facebook allowed a self proclaimed militia group calling 15 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: itself the Kenosha guard and used its Facebook page to 16 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: issue a quote call to arms, in violation of Facebook's 17 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:05,399 Speaker 1: own policies. Now, this group remained online even after at 18 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: least two people reported it before the shootings, and even 19 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: after the incident. The Guardian reports that many people used 20 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: Facebook to spread messages supportive of the suspected murderer. One 21 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: fundraiser they report was shared more than seventeen thousand, seven 22 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 1: hundred times on Facebook, including being shared by two hundred 23 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: ninety one public groups and pages with more than three 24 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: point nine million aggregate followers. And all of this happened 25 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: after Facebook said it was working to enforce its policy 26 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: banning content that praises, supports, or represents mass shooters. So 27 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie. Watching all of this unfold was 28 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: depressing as hell, and it left me feeling like tech 29 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: companies have a tight grip in our democracy and our 30 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: discourse while simultaneously gas lighting us by telling us their 31 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: platforms are a political and neutral which doesn't make any 32 00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: sense at all. The decisions that tech leaders make from 33 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: what they do or don't allow their platforms to the 34 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: money they pay in property taxes has a very very 35 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: real impact on the lives of black, brown, and other 36 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: marginalized communities. So how have tech leaders been able to 37 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: get away with sitting on the sidelines for so long? 38 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: And how can they put out statements affirming the lives 39 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 1: of marginalized people to whom their own unwillingness to be 40 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:23,799 Speaker 1: active allies have hurt for so long, How can there 41 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: be such a huge disconnect and what will it take 42 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 1: for them to meaningfully get into the game. I know 43 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: that the Internet has the potential to be the most 44 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: democratizing platform communications platform in human history, and so the 45 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,200 Speaker 1: industry that's growing up on top of it, the fact 46 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: that it is driving so much inequality and displacement is 47 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: a tragedy. That's Katherine and Bracy speaking at the PDF conference. 48 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,400 Speaker 1: Katherine is a civic technologist, and instead of just accepting 49 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,840 Speaker 1: that tech companies have to make inequality worse, she asked 50 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: why couldn't be able to tech driven economy that works 51 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: for every Instead, she co founded the Tech Equity Collaborative 52 00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: and organized as tech companies to make communities more equitable. 53 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,639 Speaker 1: In a recent piece for tech Crunch, she urged tech 54 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,959 Speaker 1: leaders to move beyond the statement and take more meaningful action, 55 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: writing staying out of it as a cop out. Staying 56 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: out of it leads to platforms being used to harm 57 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: marginalize people while tech leaders look the other way and 58 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: do nothing. The White House is saying that those authorities 59 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: moved in on those peaceful protesters in order to enforce 60 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: Washington d C. Seven pm perfume, I am your president 61 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: of law and order and an ally of all peaceful protesters. 62 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: I live in d C. And while I was getting 63 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: ready to speak with Catherine, my city was still reeling 64 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: from watching the Trump administration shoot tear gas at protesters 65 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 1: and Laffiette Square. When I saw that kind of chaos 66 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: happening in my own backyard, I also saw the ways 67 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: that platforms like Twitter and Facebook have gotten us to 68 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: this place. So I was good and angry and really 69 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: ready to spend our talk screaming about a moral tech 70 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: leaders and how they've contributed to the climate that has 71 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: led us to all of this. But I didn't really 72 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: get to have that conversation. Most tech workers, Katherine says, 73 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 1: actually want to contribute to things like equality and justice, 74 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: and part of her work is making the pathways to 75 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 1: getting them there clear, to get them off the sidelines 76 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: and into the game. How did you get started working 77 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:34,359 Speaker 1: in tech? Uh? It was a little bit of an accident. Um. 78 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: I uh, graduated into a post nine eleven world where, um, 79 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 1: you know, the economy was not great. Um. I thought 80 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 1: at the time I wanted to be a journalist and 81 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 1: had a pretty unfortunate internship experience UM at a local 82 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 1: news station in Boston, and UM at that point kind 83 00:04:58,120 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: of had a crisis of what am I going to 84 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: do with my life and decided, like any college student 85 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 1: who doesn't know what they're what they want to do 86 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 1: with their life, UM decided I was going to go 87 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: to law school. UM, but I hadn't you know, taken 88 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,480 Speaker 1: the lstats or anything, so I needed to study up. 89 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: And so I decided I was going to work you know, 90 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: in some legal arena for a year while I studied 91 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 1: for the ELF stats and UM and go from there. 92 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: And the job I ended up landing in was a 93 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: very low level admin role at a place called the 94 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: Brookman Center for Internet and Society UM at Harvard Law School. 95 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: And UM, I at that point realized that UM my 96 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: desire and passion about journalism was really a desire and 97 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 1: passion about how citizens access to the information that they 98 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 1: needed to make informed decisions in a democracy, and UM 99 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 1: I really thought that that was a critical piece of UM, 100 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: you know, healthy democracy, and I wanted to be a 101 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: part of that UM and that you know, over the 102 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: course of the first decade of this millennium, the Internet 103 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: became the place where that was actually happening, and happening 104 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,280 Speaker 1: in actually a really exciting way. Um. You know, these 105 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: were back in the days when we thought that the 106 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: Internet was gonna fix all of our democratic woes and 107 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 1: you know, break down all these barriers to entry to 108 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: the conversation for people who had been left out. And um, 109 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: and so that's where I decided I wanted to be. 110 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 1: Katherine's accidental stumble into the tech world took her to 111 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: some pretty interesting places. She ran the Technology Field Office 112 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:42,760 Speaker 1: in San Francisco on Obama's reelection campaign, in at first 113 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: of its kind in American politics, and even went on 114 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 1: to design Obama's tech policy. She joined Code for America 115 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: but wanted to continue bringing the focus and tech back 116 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: to tough issues like power and inequality. After Trump was elected. 117 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: She's sort of the initiative tech resistance up to Harness 118 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: the tech world silent majority of workers who wanted to 119 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: push for social change. Yeah, I mean, you know, I 120 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: had been doing. I started obviously with the Obama campaign 121 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: and um, you know, obviously that was political organizing, but 122 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: it was still pretty um, you know, mainstream, I guess, 123 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 1: I would say. And then a Code for America, the 124 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: work was very um, uh, sort of focused on the 125 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: administration of government. It didn't deal at all with sort 126 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: of political power or you know, equity issues or any 127 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: of that. Um, we kind of kind of stayed away 128 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: from it and honestly had our head in the sand 129 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 1: a little bit about you know, power dynamics and how 130 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: that impacted our work. Um it's one of the reasons 131 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: I ended up leaving Code for America. But UM, you know, 132 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 1: I knew I wanted to take the work to be 133 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: a little bit more I don't radical as the right word, 134 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: but certainly more interrogative of power. Catherine started to see 135 00:07:56,960 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: tech employees, folks who tend to be pretty comfortable, getting 136 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: out of their comfort zones to challenge power dynamics and 137 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: the tech space and amidst all the darkness that most 138 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: of us felt in the beginning of the Trump administration, 139 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: it gave her a little hope. It was hard to 140 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 1: get tech people to really understand that because they didn't 141 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: have a lived experience with it, Like these are comfortable 142 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: people who come from privilege, and they get it when 143 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 1: it's like this thing doesn't work and it should work 144 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: and it's hurting people that it doesn't work. So I 145 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: want to fix it, but they don't get it when 146 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: it's like and there are all these structural dynamics underlying 147 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: that that make it so it doesn't work, and we 148 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: need to fix those two UM and So I kind 149 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: of knew that there was an interest in civic engagement 150 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 1: within the tech industry, but I was surprised after the 151 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: election of how much of it came to the forefront 152 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: and how much of it was willing to challenge entrenched 153 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: power structures UM and that's been pretty exciting to see. So, 154 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: you know, I'm optimistic about our ability to really move 155 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: UM the rank and file of the community to a 156 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: place where we are really getting into some of the deeper, 157 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 1: more structural issues behind UM the stuff that we're building. 158 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: So why do you think it's so easy for tech 159 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: leaders to really not engage when it comes to political 160 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: or social issues when they actually have so much power 161 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 1: and so many resources to make change, and especially as 162 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: their rank and bile employees are getting more and more involved, 163 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: you know, because they're comfortable. They're not, like I said, 164 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: I mean organizing this kind. Usually when people are doing organizing, 165 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 1: it's really focused on the people who are most passionate 166 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:35,439 Speaker 1: about the issues or they have a lived experience of it, 167 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: and you know it's going to directly affect them, so 168 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: they're motivated and incentivized to be engaged on a certain issue. 169 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 1: And we're trying to organize people who are comfortable and 170 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: they're at a remove from the pain UM. And you know, 171 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: the further the richer you are, the higher up the 172 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: hierarchy you are in the in the tech sector, the 173 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: further away from the pain you are. And so it's 174 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 1: just hard for them to understand, you know, that life 175 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 1: experience because they don't have it. They don't have a 176 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 1: lot of exposure to other perspectives and ways of living UM, 177 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: and so it's you know, it's difficult for them to 178 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,480 Speaker 1: get it. UH. And I also think it's hard just 179 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:19,199 Speaker 1: psychologically for people to be implicated. You know, we're having 180 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: an analysis of how we got here and what the 181 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: problems are and how tech contributed to them. That's going 182 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 1: to implicate the people who've got rich off of it, UM, 183 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,079 Speaker 1: And people don't like to be implicated. You know, they 184 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: want to be UM given invitations to participate in a 185 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,079 Speaker 1: way that's hopeful, and you know, it's just a lot 186 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: harder UM if you're if what you're doing is embedding 187 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: feelings of shame and guilt to get people to move 188 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 1: to a place of like productive action from that. In organizing, 189 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:55,439 Speaker 1: it's incredibly difficult to make people feel motivated to take 190 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: productive action from a place of shame. And in this 191 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: moment of reckoning around racial justice, I think big tech 192 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 1: companies have a lot to feel shameful about, even after 193 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: posting statements supportive of Black Lives matter. It's often the 194 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 1: rank and file employees who are pushing tech companies and 195 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: leaders to be better than they are. For instance, Amazon 196 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: currently deals with hundreds of law enforcement agencies to share 197 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:23,319 Speaker 1: footage from people's ring cameras, which the Electronic Frontier Foundation 198 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: says allows for residents to make snap judgments about who 199 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: does and doesn't belong in their neighborhoods and summon police 200 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: to apprehend them. So obviously not great for black and 201 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: brown people, and until very recently, Amazon sold facial recognition 202 00:11:38,120 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 1: technology to police departments, technology that, according to a u 203 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: S National Institutes of Standards and Technology study, is likely 204 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:50,079 Speaker 1: to misidentify black people and would unquestionably be used to 205 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: further over surveil black and brown communities. Amazon only ended 206 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: that policy after their own employees sent a letter to 207 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: Amazon higher ups saying they wouldn't contribute to tools that 208 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: violate human rights and that as ethically concerned Amazonians, they 209 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: demand a choice in what they build and I say, 210 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 1: and how it's used. And even as Amazon General counsel 211 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: David Zabloski hit send on a memo affirming the company's 212 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 1: support of Black Lives Matter, he didn't mention that just 213 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: a few weeks earlier, the company had fired Chris Small, 214 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: a black former Amazon employee who spoke out against unsafe 215 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: conditions that Amazon warehouses due to COVID nineteen an elite memo, 216 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: Sablotski called him not smart and not articulate. After Trump 217 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,679 Speaker 1: quoted Miami police chief and noted racist Walter Heatley by 218 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: posting when the looting starts, the shooting starts, Facebook CEO 219 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg explicitly declined to remove the post, even as 220 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: his own employees staged a walk out, which The Verge 221 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 1: called the most significant collective worker action in the company's 222 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: fifteen year history. And in light of Kyle Rittenhouse, the 223 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: alleged murderer we told you about in Kenosha, it was 224 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: the rank and file Facebook employees who pushed back against 225 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg's leadership. Tech employees are a valuable 226 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: resource for making change of tech companies, and a lot 227 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: of them are already coming from a place where they 228 00:13:12,480 --> 00:13:16,760 Speaker 1: don't want to build technology that actively contributes to inequality. 229 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 1: So how do we get to a place where tech 230 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 1: leaders are listening to the tone set by these employees 231 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: to move from just making a statement and get them 232 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 1: to use their tremendous power to actually protect the communities 233 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: they say they support and not actually contribute to making 234 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 1: our lives more difficult or more dangerous. Well, that is 235 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 1: the million dollar question and it is something that we 236 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: are working on every day at tech Equity, is just 237 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: how do we create the um momentum, the political will 238 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 1: among decision makers, I mean our theory of change. And 239 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: you know, the hypothesis that we're testing and have seen, um, 240 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: you know a pretty promising results is that the constitute 241 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: a very powerful constituency that tech companies have to answer 242 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: to are their employees um And so if we can 243 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: get them sufficiently organized, then um, then maybe that's a 244 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,439 Speaker 1: lever that we can use to exert influence across the 245 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: across the industry, and I don't even think it needs 246 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: to be. I think, you know, a lot of the 247 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: tech organizing we've seen has been very antagonistic, and I 248 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: think there's a place for that, But I also think 249 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: there's a place for you know, like this is a 250 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: shared problem. We want to solve this, and we're gonna, 251 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,480 Speaker 1: you know, build alternative solutions that show you that there's 252 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: a way to do this that isn't the way you're 253 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: doing it. And also we're gonna, like, we want to 254 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: go work for companies that are doing it better, So 255 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: we're going to vote with our feet kind of thing. 256 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break and we're back. In addition 257 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: to statements of support, in the last few weeks, I've 258 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: seen a lot of people and companies that I like 259 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 1: in respect on the technology space, hosted initiative and support 260 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: of the Black community, offers of mentorship, offers of seed 261 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: money for black businesses and startups. I want to be 262 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: clear that I think these offers are coming from the 263 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: right place and I'm happy to see them, but when 264 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: you pull them apart, sometimes they can be a little weird, 265 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: Like the assumption that black folks in tech automatically need 266 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: white mentorship or framing funding a black lead project is 267 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: a kind of charity. Some of that just didn't sit 268 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: right with me, And even that assertion feels fraught. Can 269 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: I be critical of an offer that was made with 270 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: good intentions but actually kind of supports the system that 271 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: assumes black voices or charity cases. It's uncomfortable, and I 272 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:38,280 Speaker 1: guess that's sort of the point. We need to be 273 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 1: willing to be uncomfortable. If tech leaders of power, money, 274 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: and resources truly want to help, it might involve putting 275 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: themselves and uncomfortable positions that directly challenge or implicate them. 276 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 1: In the last few weeks momentum around Black Lives Matter, 277 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: I've seen so many well intentioned white people that I 278 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 1: really like in respect reaching out and trying to help. 279 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: But you know, when you take apart their offers of help, 280 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: they're actually kind of fucked up, saying things like oh, 281 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: I'll mentor you, or oh I'll invest in your company, 282 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: and framing it is a kind of charity. It's still 283 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: sort of rooted in this place of white benevolence or 284 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: like they're giving you a gift, helping you out to 285 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: sort of alleviate their guilt around white supremacy. And you know, 286 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: I hate picking apart what I think are very well intentioned, 287 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: well meaning gestures. But if we're not willing to be 288 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: critical of this kind of thing, we probably won't get anywhere. Yeah, 289 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I like to think of it as like, great, 290 00:16:32,360 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: that's a really good first step. It is hardly enough. 291 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: And another way to um think about it is like 292 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: when you look at those well meaning but maybe like 293 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: kind of sucked up offers of help, oftentimes what you 294 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: read between lines is like I'm willing to do a 295 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: thing that doesn't challenge my power. Um. So like I 296 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: will mentor you, um, but it doesn't but like I'm 297 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: still above you, like a mentor mentee kind of thing. Um. 298 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: Or I will invest to your company, but like I'm 299 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: investing you know, like there's something in it for me there. 300 00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: When you start talking about the solutions that are really 301 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: going to break down structural inequity, it requires that people 302 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: give something up um. And you know it doesn't need 303 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,160 Speaker 1: to be um and giving something up in a way 304 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: that that like disempowers them or like makes them poorer. 305 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 1: But they are going to have to release the stranglehold right, 306 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 1: like they're going to have to share in order to 307 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: make the whole greater for everybody, and those kinds of 308 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:37,199 Speaker 1: solutions become a much harder ask. So this is like 309 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: the tech Crunch piece that I wrote that was laying 310 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 1: out some of those options. And we have found that 311 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:46,120 Speaker 1: like when you move past the sort of charitable um, 312 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: you know, offers of help to the like what is 313 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: going to make meaningful structural change asks, then you start 314 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,719 Speaker 1: getting hard nosed um or getting ignored. And these are 315 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 1: things like we're working on a ballot initiative to reform 316 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: the property tax code and the corporate pretty tax code 317 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: in California, which has been probably the most fundamental structural 318 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 1: flaw in California's economy and the reason why California is 319 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: the fifth largest economy in the world but has the 320 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 1: highest poverty rate in the country. UM. And that's the 321 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 1: kind of thing where it's like, Okay, you care about 322 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: black lives, Well, there's this policy decision we made forty 323 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: years ago. It was very explicitly racist and defunded all 324 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: of these services UM that would have helped black families. UM. 325 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:31,880 Speaker 1: Over the last several decades. We can undo that. Are 326 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: you willing to, you know, let go lay down for that, 327 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 1: and the answer has been sounds like a you know, 328 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 1: I get it, but it's not really ringing my bell, 329 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:46,880 Speaker 1: you know, or like we can't that's not the kind 330 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 1: of thing we get involved in UM without really being 331 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 1: able to articulate why UM. And those are the kinds 332 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: of things that and that's even one that is actually, 333 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 1: for a bunch of reasons I won't get into, does 334 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: actually benefit the tech industry because they're a newer, uh 335 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: you know sector UM and some of the companies who 336 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: would be paying more in taxes. So you know, it 337 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: just doesn't make a lot of sense to me other 338 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: than to look at as like a deeply entrenched I mean, 339 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,640 Speaker 1: this is how deeply entrenched white supremacy is, is that 340 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: people don't even understand or recognize when it is playing 341 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: out in these ways of like yes, I will mentor you, 342 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:25,199 Speaker 1: but no, I won't put you on my board. In 343 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: the wake of calls for racial justice, online publishing platform 344 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: Medium announced Colin Kaepernick would be joining their board. Bull 345 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: Disclosure I worked on Medium's politics team and have a 346 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: good experience there. Catherine felt uncomfortable with the idea of 347 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,439 Speaker 1: Kawepernick joining the board. Kaepernick is great, and his legacy 348 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: and commitment to racial justice is so clear, but why 349 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: pick a black celebrity instead of a black person with 350 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 1: direct experience and technology, media and inclusion? Yeah, I mean 351 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:54,400 Speaker 1: I found that just really and I couldn't I wasn't 352 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: sure I could articulate why it robbed me the wrong 353 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: way at the time, But yeah, I mean it's like 354 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: he doesn't of any experience. He you know, for all 355 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 1: the good he's done, he's a football player, and that's fine, 356 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: Like he may actually end up being a great board member, 357 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: but why did you go to him? You know when 358 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: there are all these people with you know, black folks 359 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:19,480 Speaker 1: who have experienced in media and technology who would be 360 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,439 Speaker 1: way more relevant to bring way more relevant experience to 361 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:27,000 Speaker 1: the board. And it's, you know, the implicit the thing 362 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 1: I've heard implicitly was like, well we had to go 363 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: to this guy because we couldn't find anyone else that 364 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: could fill that seat, you know, And that that was 365 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: the thing that I found kind of offensive. And there's 366 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 1: also this thing of like, you know, well, famous black 367 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: people you know are fine, um, but you know, we're 368 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: not willing to do the thing that would like actually 369 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,239 Speaker 1: create equity. And we've seen this for the you know, 370 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,399 Speaker 1: the last hundred years in Hollywood and elsewhere. It's like 371 00:20:55,800 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: black celebrities are you know, get a pass um and 372 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: that allows white people, white people in power to kind 373 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 1: of say, yeah, we've done the things. See I've got 374 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 1: my black friend um and you know, Jack Dorsey love him. 375 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: I think the commitments he's making lately are great, a 376 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: really great stuff forward, but like, and you know, transparency 377 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: he's doing around his giving is great, but like the 378 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,640 Speaker 1: transparency around is giving has shown that basically the black 379 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: organizations he's giving to are just like people Jay Z 380 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: and Beyonce told him to give money to. And it's like, 381 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: how is that, you know, meritocratic or you know, that's 382 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: not helping the overall question of equity. I want to 383 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: be clear, it's not like you're crapping on celebrities like 384 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 1: Colin Kaepernick, but it really is a nuance question of 385 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 1: who do folks feel comfortable lifting up and amplifying and 386 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: giving a seat at the table, and who does that 387 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 1: allow to be shut out? Yeah, and I think it's like, oh, 388 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: you're you know, you're dogging on him. But also like, gosh, 389 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: we can't. You know, nothing's ever good enough. You know, 390 00:21:57,320 --> 00:21:59,320 Speaker 1: we put somebody black on the board and now you're 391 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: shifting on us still and you know, so I don't 392 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: want it to be like, you know, uh, everything is 393 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 1: bad all the time and you can never do anything 394 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 1: that's going to be good enough. I also think that 395 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: it's important to get after like, yes, that's great, this 396 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: is a great move in the right direction, but you 397 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 1: really need to understand why it's a problematic decision and 398 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 1: like make the next decision based on this new understanding 399 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 1: of what's going on. He might turn out to be 400 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: an amazing board member, um, but I think really what's 401 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,679 Speaker 1: under it's not really about him. It's really about the 402 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: decision making process. More. There are no growth on the 403 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: Internet after this quick break and we're back. Technology isn't 404 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: neutral and it isn't a political and I hate watching 405 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,199 Speaker 1: tech leaders do gymnastics to avoid having to own up 406 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 1: to the fact that their technology has had a real 407 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 1: impact on people's lives. It even works to watch them 408 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 1: use that lie that their platforms very political to avoid 409 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 1: a kind of and justify their own silence as their 410 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: technology hurts marginalized communities. To be silent is to be complicit. 411 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: In your Tech Crunch piece, you wrote, silence is complicity. 412 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,400 Speaker 1: As we've learned over the last five years, almost everything 413 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 1: tech companies do is political, whether they like it or not. 414 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: It's time for them to pull their head out of 415 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: the sand and use their power to support true racial 416 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: and economic equity. We're gonna link to your piece in 417 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 1: the show notes. I hope everybody reads it because it 418 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: is a word. You definitely had time Friday morning and 419 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: I was like, you know what I got? I have something? 420 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: So how have tech leaders been able to get away 421 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: with framing their technology and platforms as a political well, 422 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know how they've been able to 423 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 1: get away with it. I've been really uh surprised. And 424 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 1: actually I have a beef with a lot of the 425 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: activist community that they're focused so much on Facebook. You know, 426 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: I'm getting Mark Duckerberg to do something differently when really 427 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,399 Speaker 1: this needs to be a public policy conversation and they 428 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: should be banging down the doors of every congress person 429 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: asking them what they're going to do to regulate companies 430 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: like Facebook. Um. But you know, I will say this 431 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 1: might be controversial, but I think there's some truth in that, 432 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: Like it is true that these platforms in a vacuum 433 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,199 Speaker 1: are neutral, and but it's just like the you know, 434 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 1: the the Mike Tyson quote is like everybody has a 435 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:25,160 Speaker 1: plan until they get punched in the face. They're all 436 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: neutral platforms until people get on them, you know. And 437 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 1: then like once you have more than like five or 438 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,679 Speaker 1: ten people on the internet together, ship starts. It's just 439 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: amplifies all the other ship that's happening in the world. 440 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 1: And so when you have a bunch of people who 441 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: don't have any life experience, who don't have a wide 442 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,439 Speaker 1: range of perspectives dealing with a diverse set of people 443 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: and you know, experiences and all these things, it's a 444 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,920 Speaker 1: lot easier for them to believe that we can just 445 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 1: hide from this because people it's not our issue. If 446 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: people are going to be people, right, like, we're not 447 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 1: facilitating that. And they don't understand, you know, the level 448 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:06,160 Speaker 1: of UM, the depth of their understanding of how power 449 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 1: dynamics work is very superficial UM, and so they don't 450 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 1: get they don't get it. They just because they haven't 451 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 1: lived it. And this is one of the reasons why 452 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,040 Speaker 1: it's important that we have more representation of people in companies, 453 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: you know, the companies who have lived it. But also, um, 454 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:22,920 Speaker 1: we need and this is the work that we're doing. 455 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,199 Speaker 1: We need people rank and file, people who work in 456 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: the companies to get out and understand the world more 457 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,640 Speaker 1: and so create you know, create these opportunities for them 458 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,880 Speaker 1: to develop some new life experiences. I mean, it might 459 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,400 Speaker 1: be too late for Mark Zuckerberg, but like I said, 460 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: if we get the company to the people who work 461 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: in the company to get it, um, maybe he starts 462 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,439 Speaker 1: changing his mind or at least responding to a different 463 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,880 Speaker 1: set of incentives than uh he has been responding to. UM. 464 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, a we need to use our 465 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: political power to put pressure on regulators and be um, 466 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,360 Speaker 1: you know, we need to look at um, folks who 467 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 1: work in the companys and how we can create more 468 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: opportunities for them to understand the world around them. If 469 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: we're going to expect these tools are built in a 470 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 1: more ethical way. Well, but it looked like for these 471 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: tools and platforms to be built with the quality in mind. Yeah, 472 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: I mean it's a little bit hard to h It's 473 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: very intangible, right, Like so we it's it's hard to 474 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 1: explain an implicit bias to people. It's it's kind of 475 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 1: the same way like you can't you can't measure what 476 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 1: you can't see kind of thing, and you don't really 477 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: you know, it's like the unknown unknowns. You don't know 478 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 1: when they're showing up. Um. And I feel like, you know, 479 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,239 Speaker 1: in the product decision making cycle, there's some things that 480 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,720 Speaker 1: like just aren't anticipated that. It's not like they're actively 481 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: making bad decisions. They're not actively you know, setting out 482 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: to screw people over um, but they just don't can't 483 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 1: anticipate that their tools might be used in that way. 484 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: And so one of the things is like having these 485 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: ethical frameworks were like wait a minute, let's run this 486 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 1: through a process that might help us see our blind spots. 487 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: But also having those ethical frameworks sit within and supplied um, 488 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 1: you know, uh, real world situation. Right. So if you're 489 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:16,359 Speaker 1: building tools that are going to create workplace efficiency, um, 490 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: well maybe you should like and those are gonna be 491 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: in the hands of like say a UPS driver, Like 492 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: this is gonna make your route better, so like maybe 493 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 1: you should sit with the UPS driver And like understand, 494 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of those companies don't care 495 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 1: about you know, they're not talking to the driver because 496 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: the person that's paying for the thing is actually the 497 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: driver's boss, right. UM. And so it's just like things 498 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: like that, like maybe we should you know, it wouldn't 499 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,879 Speaker 1: occurred to you in the product planning meeting. Oh maybe 500 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: we should like sit with the drivers and see how 501 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: this is gonna go and like take their you know, 502 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,439 Speaker 1: the way that they use the tool into account or 503 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: how it screws up their life, Like they can't plan, 504 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 1: you know, to pick up their kids from school because 505 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 1: they don't know what their schedule is going to be 506 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: whatever that thing is that they wouldn't have known otherwise. UM. 507 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: Those are the kinds of experiences we need to create 508 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: for folks. And that's a very UM. I mean then 509 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: there's just like a broader can we get you out 510 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 1: in the world connected to people who aren't like you, um, 511 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: to just deepen your empathy. Um, that is just like 512 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: basic and we do a lot of that work. I've 513 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,440 Speaker 1: got story after story of just like eye opening experiences 514 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: that tech workers had that might seem obvious to you 515 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: or I, but they just didn't that's not the world 516 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: they came from. Um, And they can't really be blamed 517 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,400 Speaker 1: for that, but but it is their responsibility to kind 518 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 1: of expand their horizons. I don't know that I ever 519 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 1: would have thought that a major part of making tech 520 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,959 Speaker 1: more equitable starts with helping tech employees understand empathy and 521 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,600 Speaker 1: how to understand other people's experiences that they might not 522 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: be able to identify with. Yeah, and I think, you know, 523 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:48,680 Speaker 1: I I a lot of people put us in the 524 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: like diversity and inclusion bucket, and that that kind of 525 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 1: rubs me the wrong way. Um not because I don't 526 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 1: think that that's important work, Like I do think representation 527 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: is extremely important. But oftentimes when we say that, like, well, 528 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: what we really need are people in the companies who 529 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: have these lived experiences, the implication is and those people 530 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: are going to carry the burden for making sure that 531 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 1: the company doesn't funk up right and that, and then 532 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 1: it pushes the arrest the white folks and the privileged folks. 533 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,960 Speaker 1: It pushes them into a path of passive role and 534 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: then it's like, well, we don't have to do anything. 535 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: This is on the black folks or the Latino folks 536 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: or the queer folks to figure out. Um or like 537 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: the CEO can say, well, I hired a diversity director. 538 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 1: So like box checked and it's actually that's not okay, right, 539 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: Like everybody in the company needs to see this as 540 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: their responsibility. UM, And the way that folks who come 541 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: from a place of privilege are gonna take action is 542 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,040 Speaker 1: going to be different. So we need to from the 543 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: folks who are under represented, right, and so we need 544 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: to create programming that matches that experience for those folks 545 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: to make them active participants. But understand, like we have 546 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,240 Speaker 1: to meet them where they are. UM. And so that's 547 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 1: got to look different than you know, just a diversity 548 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 1: an inclusion program. I've been the person in a lot 549 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 1: of companies whose job it is to give a shit 550 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: about that kind of thing so that other people don't 551 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: have to, and it can be like really siloing, isolating work. 552 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 1: It was basically my job to care about diversity and 553 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:21,560 Speaker 1: inclusion so that the rest of the team didn't have 554 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: to be burdened about it, right, and then it becomes 555 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: you know, extra work. I mean, I have been in 556 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 1: that position to the only person of color on a 557 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: leadership team in an organization of fifteen people on it, 558 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: and always had to be the one who was bringing 559 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: it up At the staff meetings, and you know, it's 560 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: just like emotionally draining, and then you want to you 561 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: feel like I don't want to be seen for just that, 562 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: Like I'm good at my job and I want to 563 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: do my job well and be known for that too, 564 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: And um, why can't we all think of this as 565 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: like an organizational issue and not just like put it 566 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: on the black person to deal with? Um, you know, 567 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: I've been there, so I think that's why I feel 568 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: like the approach at tech Equity is like, okay, and yes, 569 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: representation and also all these white folks have to get 570 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 1: in on it too. We shouldn't just be fighting for 571 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: a more inclusive tech sector because it's the right thing 572 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: to do. Having more people with the diversity of life 573 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 1: experiences and backgrounds working in tech is one way we 574 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 1: can address inequality because that means that more people will 575 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: be able to meaningfuly understand experiences around inequality. And we 576 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: need more people like that working as decision makers around 577 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 1: technology and how it impacts our world. How do we 578 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 1: make people understand that we all have a stake in 579 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: this and we all have a voice in this, and 580 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,480 Speaker 1: we should all be allowed to demand accountability from tech leaders, 581 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 1: even if we're not quote unquote tech people. Yeah, I 582 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 1: think that that's a really um pervasive kind of like 583 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 1: unspoken cast system within the tech world. I do think 584 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 1: it's starting to change in the same as sort of 585 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,720 Speaker 1: on that's along the same trajectory as the like platforms 586 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: are neutral thing, like people understand that that's not true. 587 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 1: And I think people also are starting to understand that, 588 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: like the humanities side of building technology is just as 589 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,080 Speaker 1: or potentially even more important than the actual writing of 590 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: the code. Um And I So I my feeling is 591 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,320 Speaker 1: that's going to start to change a lot and people 592 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: are gonna, um start to understand that like, even if 593 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: you're technical, like you also have to have a more 594 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: well well well rounded set of skills, and that the 595 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: stuff that you're bringing to the table as a communicator, um, 596 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,720 Speaker 1: you know, is as just as important, if not more 597 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 1: than the writing the good code. So I'm I'm starting 598 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: I feel a lot better about that. And I did 599 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: say two or three years ago, um, and that also, 600 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: like I do think it's important for folks who who 601 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: want to get into tech. I feel like a lot 602 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: of you know, people from underrepresented communities who don't have 603 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: like traditional educational backgrounds feel like they have to learn 604 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: how to in order to break into tech, and you 605 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: really don't. Like, if you're a really, um, you know, 606 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: kick ass retail manager, you can work at a tech 607 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 1: like doing customer success or sales or whatever and get 608 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: your foot in the door. Um, there's a lot of 609 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 1: applicable experience. And I worry that with this focus on 610 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 1: like learning how to code, where there's like a chilling 611 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: effect for people who bring a whole bunch of different 612 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,719 Speaker 1: kinds of skill sets to the table. Um, And we 613 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: need folks to like put themselves forward and apply for 614 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,239 Speaker 1: those kinds of jobs. Yeah, I think we need a 615 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 1: massive cultural change around who feels qualified to go an 616 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 1: attack and who feels qualified to take up space and 617 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 1: you know call themselves a person in tech who has 618 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: the authority to have an opinion or be a decision maker. 619 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:46,959 Speaker 1: We have um uh, you know, we we obviously organized 620 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,520 Speaker 1: pack workers, So we asked people, are you a tech worker? 621 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: And I didn't think that was a complicated question before 622 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: we started asking it. But there are people who work 623 00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 1: at say Google or somewhere, but if if they're in 624 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 1: a non technical role, they'll say, I'm not a tech worker. 625 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 1: It's like, no, you absolutely are a tech worker. Uh, 626 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,879 Speaker 1: you are critical to like the product getting out into 627 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,280 Speaker 1: the world. UM. So yeah, that it is a weird 628 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:17,320 Speaker 1: um dynamic that we're hoping to change. For Catherine, building 629 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 1: a more just and equitable world and working for a 630 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 1: tech company doesn't have to be in opposition with each other. 631 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 1: And she's hopeful that most folks in tech actually want 632 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,320 Speaker 1: to do both. That emphasis on doing both while building 633 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,359 Speaker 1: bridges and finding common ground is something that runs deep 634 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 1: for her. So I'm bi racial and my dad's black 635 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,880 Speaker 1: and my mom's white, and um they got married in 636 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: nine uh uh and we're you know, that was pretty early. 637 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 1: They were the hipsters of interracial couples. Really, that was 638 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: like four years after the Lovin's case. So, um, we 639 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: both were alienated from both sides of the family for 640 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,280 Speaker 1: a while. Um ended up getting closer with my dad's 641 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 1: side over time. Um, but it was still kind of like, 642 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:10,240 Speaker 1: I don't fit in either one of these spaces. Um. 643 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 1: You know, I think this is something we don't talk 644 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:16,359 Speaker 1: about a lot, is like the biracial black experience. Um. 645 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: And you know a lot of the work that how 646 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:24,359 Speaker 1: that's played out in my life has really been an 647 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 1: ability to be both and all the time. Right, So 648 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 1: I see things, um from multiple perspectives naturally, and I 649 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 1: can do I feel like I can fluidly move between 650 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:42,320 Speaker 1: different kinds of um, you know, cultural contexts more easily 651 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 1: than some other folks might be able to do. And 652 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:48,480 Speaker 1: that for me, I'm always looking to like, how do 653 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:50,920 Speaker 1: I carve out the common ground here? How do I 654 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: build the bridge? How do I create the like common understanding? 655 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,000 Speaker 1: Because I felt like I always had to do that 656 00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,839 Speaker 1: growing up. UM was like bring two sides together. You know. 657 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: I'm like the physical manifestation of that. So UM you 658 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 1: know it's been It's at some point I'll have enough 659 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 1: therapy and we'll write a book and um, you know, 660 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:15,720 Speaker 1: be able to like actually speak more intelligently about what 661 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:19,840 Speaker 1: that has meant, like that biracial black existence has meant 662 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 1: for just my identity in the way that it's made 663 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 1: my work richer. Um. You know, I've recently started and 664 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 1: I think the tech Crunch article maybe was the first 665 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 1: place I said this. I always feel, um, you know, 666 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,439 Speaker 1: uncomfortable saying that I'm a black woman, even though I am. 667 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: And I am also uncomfortable saying I'm biracial, because I 668 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 1: feel like that leaves out a very important part uh 669 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:44,719 Speaker 1: my identity. So I've now started to saying I'm a 670 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 1: biracial black woman, um and that that feels like, you know, 671 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,840 Speaker 1: I can be both of those things at the same time, 672 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 1: and and figuring out how those identities sit together. Um, 673 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 1: is you know an important thing for me and I 674 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,839 Speaker 1: think makes makes the work better. UM. So I don't 675 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,080 Speaker 1: know that that was like me offloading a bunch of 676 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:12,360 Speaker 1: like psychology antis. I appreciate you being my my therapist 677 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: for the day. As depressing as it's been to watch 678 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:20,400 Speaker 1: racially animosity intensifying in the last few weeks, talking to 679 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,399 Speaker 1: Catherine reminded me that it's our diversity that makes us great, 680 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 1: and it can be our strength and our salvation. It's 681 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: something that can give us a little bit of hope 682 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,880 Speaker 1: for the future. The more people from different backgrounds, with 683 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 1: different life experiences who feel included and lifted up in tech, 684 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,120 Speaker 1: this powerful industry that controls so much of our lives 685 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,160 Speaker 1: and democracy, the more it can be used as an 686 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: effective agent of change. That's why it's important to have 687 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 1: you know people from all kinds of walks of life. 688 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:54,120 Speaker 1: UM represented in this industry that is really central to 689 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 1: building the public square UM and so that's you know 690 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 1: why I do the work that I do. To learn 691 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 1: more about Katherine's work with Tech Equity, visit Tech Equity 692 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 1: Collaborative dot org. Got a story about an interesting thing 693 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,440 Speaker 1: in tech, or just want to say hi, You can 694 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 1: reach us at Hello at tang godi dot com. You 695 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,799 Speaker 1: can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangdi dot com. 696 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by 697 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:23,959 Speaker 1: me Bridget Tod. It's a production of I Heart Radio 698 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,640 Speaker 1: and Unboss creative Jonathan Strickland as our executive producer. Terry 699 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,880 Speaker 1: Harrison is our producer, and sound engineer. Michaelmato is our 700 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,520 Speaker 1: contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Tod. If you want 701 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:36,880 Speaker 1: to help us grow, rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. 702 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:39,719 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, check out the 703 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 1: iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.