1
00:00:15,210 --> 00:00:23,610
Speaker 1: Pushkin. How's it going, doctor Jackie Cohen?

2
00:00:23,930 --> 00:00:27,729
Speaker 2: Yeah, how about this Jacke co win, doctor Jackie co

3
00:00:27,970 --> 00:00:31,090
Speaker 2: When So okay, So, now that I am officially in

4
00:00:31,130 --> 00:00:32,890
Speaker 2: my late fifties, what do you think I could do

5
00:00:32,930 --> 00:00:34,090
Speaker 2: to start improving my health?

6
00:00:34,409 --> 00:00:36,570
Speaker 3: You can build up that little little body of yours.

7
00:00:36,650 --> 00:00:38,170
Speaker 3: Get some meat balls on the spaghetti.

8
00:00:38,690 --> 00:00:40,370
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, Oh you're laughing?

9
00:00:41,129 --> 00:00:43,530
Speaker 1: Is that a medical term? Why aren't you doing any weightlifting?

10
00:00:43,849 --> 00:00:45,530
Speaker 1: Because I don't live near a gym.

11
00:00:45,849 --> 00:00:46,489
Speaker 5: You don't have to.

12
00:00:48,209 --> 00:00:49,849
Speaker 1: Like where I just go around the house and I

13
00:00:49,970 --> 00:00:52,210
Speaker 1: like lift a couch or try to pull a toilet

14
00:00:52,250 --> 00:01:05,410
Speaker 1: out or something. Yeah, not from Pushkin Industries. I'm Jonathan

15
00:01:05,490 --> 00:01:11,850
Speaker 1: Goldstein and this is Heavyweight today's episode the bank Robber.

16
00:01:16,010 --> 00:01:29,890
Speaker 6: Right after the break, Hello, Hello, how are you hi?

17
00:01:30,010 --> 00:01:30,250
Speaker 7: Good?

18
00:01:30,290 --> 00:01:33,130
Speaker 6: How are you doing really well? Thank you good?

19
00:01:33,370 --> 00:01:34,289
Speaker 1: Are you comfortable?

20
00:01:34,970 --> 00:01:35,610
Speaker 5: I am. Yes.

21
00:01:36,410 --> 00:01:38,690
Speaker 1: The story you're about to hear is from someone who's

22
00:01:38,730 --> 00:01:41,490
Speaker 1: still figuring out how to tell it, or even if

23
00:01:41,490 --> 00:01:42,690
Speaker 1: he should tell it.

24
00:01:42,690 --> 00:01:45,130
Speaker 5: It just seems very crazy and it's it's kind of

25
00:01:45,130 --> 00:01:46,410
Speaker 5: hard for me to talk about it.

26
00:01:47,130 --> 00:01:49,570
Speaker 1: At this point, he's only shared the story with a

27
00:01:49,570 --> 00:01:52,130
Speaker 1: couple of people, and he only agreed to share it

28
00:01:52,130 --> 00:01:54,930
Speaker 1: with me after I promised not to use his real name,

29
00:01:55,450 --> 00:01:59,210
Speaker 1: so we'll call him X. My communication with X began

30
00:01:59,290 --> 00:02:01,730
Speaker 1: with an email he sent me over three years ago.

31
00:02:02,330 --> 00:02:05,250
Speaker 1: It contained a lot of nervous preamble and throat clearing,

32
00:02:05,650 --> 00:02:09,809
Speaker 1: but eventually he came to the point. In nineteen ninety two,

33
00:02:10,010 --> 00:02:13,970
Speaker 1: he said, I committed an armed bank robbery. I was

34
00:02:14,090 --> 00:02:22,570
Speaker 1: just one month past my fourteenth birthday. X begins this

35
00:02:22,690 --> 00:02:26,130
Speaker 1: story by telling me about his family. He was raised

36
00:02:26,130 --> 00:02:29,450
Speaker 1: on a dairy farm, the son of immigrant parents. He

37
00:02:29,530 --> 00:02:32,889
Speaker 1: was one of seven children, all brothers. X was right

38
00:02:32,890 --> 00:02:33,850
Speaker 1: in the middle, Right in.

39
00:02:33,810 --> 00:02:36,050
Speaker 5: The middle, Yeah, three, older, three, younger. Yeah.

40
00:02:36,610 --> 00:02:38,450
Speaker 1: X's home life wasn't an easy one.

41
00:02:38,970 --> 00:02:43,889
Speaker 5: Well, you would call it abusive today. You know. The bell, tour,

42
00:02:43,970 --> 00:02:47,570
Speaker 5: brunstick or whatever was handy was used as a corrective measure.

43
00:02:48,650 --> 00:02:51,610
Speaker 5: My mom was a little more creative in the implements

44
00:02:51,650 --> 00:02:54,290
Speaker 5: she would use, but it didn't hurt as much as

45
00:02:54,330 --> 00:02:55,290
Speaker 5: one my dad said it.

46
00:02:56,290 --> 00:02:58,930
Speaker 1: To illustrate, X tells me about the night he snuck

47
00:02:58,970 --> 00:03:01,890
Speaker 1: out to the local junior high He noticed an open

48
00:03:01,930 --> 00:03:05,290
Speaker 1: window and broke in. The police caught him and brought

49
00:03:05,370 --> 00:03:07,410
Speaker 1: him home where his parents were waiting.

50
00:03:08,530 --> 00:03:13,690
Speaker 5: They told me to remove all my clothing. So I did,

51
00:03:14,530 --> 00:03:19,570
Speaker 5: minus my underwear, and then I just got like the

52
00:03:19,570 --> 00:03:23,450
Speaker 5: beating of my life with a belt. But I just

53
00:03:23,530 --> 00:03:25,410
Speaker 5: remember it hitting me all over my body. I remember

54
00:03:25,450 --> 00:03:28,970
Speaker 5: it hitting my penis like it was. It was pretty brutal.

55
00:03:30,210 --> 00:03:32,130
Speaker 1: X says there were other nights like that.

56
00:03:32,890 --> 00:03:36,890
Speaker 5: I remember crying and lights are out and my younger

57
00:03:36,890 --> 00:03:38,770
Speaker 5: brother trying to say something to comfort me, and me

58
00:03:38,930 --> 00:03:42,290
Speaker 5: saying something like I hate them and I don't want

59
00:03:42,290 --> 00:03:43,010
Speaker 5: to be here anymore.

60
00:03:44,010 --> 00:03:47,730
Speaker 1: School offered no respite. X was small for his age

61
00:03:47,730 --> 00:03:50,970
Speaker 1: and had a high voice. The bullies took notice.

62
00:03:51,010 --> 00:03:53,370
Speaker 5: When they'd see me in the halls. They'd ask me questions,

63
00:03:54,330 --> 00:03:57,250
Speaker 5: you know, kind of vulgar, like I heard you like

64
00:03:57,290 --> 00:03:59,330
Speaker 5: giving head or something like that, and I didn't even

65
00:03:59,370 --> 00:04:03,090
Speaker 5: know what that meant. Or I remember once they asked me,

66
00:04:04,330 --> 00:04:06,090
Speaker 5: is it true you like to choke the chicken? And

67
00:04:06,250 --> 00:04:10,570
Speaker 5: again I was like what, but I said not really,

68
00:04:10,930 --> 00:04:13,530
Speaker 5: and they really keyed in on that not really, because

69
00:04:13,530 --> 00:04:15,210
Speaker 5: it was like, oh, so you kind of like it.

70
00:04:16,370 --> 00:04:18,969
Speaker 5: My strategy with him was just curl up at a

71
00:04:18,969 --> 00:04:21,929
Speaker 5: ball and hope that they'd leave me alone, and that

72
00:04:22,130 --> 00:04:23,930
Speaker 5: I think made them want to pick on me more.

73
00:04:24,890 --> 00:04:27,330
Speaker 1: Between school and his home life, it felt like there

74
00:04:27,369 --> 00:04:30,690
Speaker 1: was no safe place to be, so X retreated into

75
00:04:30,690 --> 00:04:33,610
Speaker 1: a fantasy world. He'd come home from a day of

76
00:04:33,650 --> 00:04:36,489
Speaker 1: being bullied and lye in bed, playing out scenes in

77
00:04:36,529 --> 00:04:39,770
Speaker 1: which he was the powerful one, the one to be feared.

78
00:04:40,289 --> 00:04:43,729
Speaker 5: As an example, one of these guys makes fun of

79
00:04:43,770 --> 00:04:46,930
Speaker 5: me in class, and I get up and I push

80
00:04:46,969 --> 00:04:48,969
Speaker 5: them down and beat them up, like you know, le

81
00:04:49,089 --> 00:04:50,650
Speaker 5: Stephen Sagal movie or something.

82
00:04:51,890 --> 00:04:54,809
Speaker 1: X found himself drawn to movies like that about tough

83
00:04:54,849 --> 00:04:59,089
Speaker 1: guys and outlaws, young Guns, Point Break, a favorite was

84
00:04:59,130 --> 00:05:03,249
Speaker 1: actually called Tough Guys. At around this time, he discovered

85
00:05:03,250 --> 00:05:06,929
Speaker 1: a book titled The Encyclopedia of Crime in the school library.

86
00:05:07,570 --> 00:05:10,929
Speaker 1: He'd spend lunchtime there hiding from trouble and reading about

87
00:05:10,929 --> 00:05:15,210
Speaker 1: criminals like al Capone, Babyface Nelson, and Pretty Boy Floyd.

88
00:05:15,969 --> 00:05:17,530
Speaker 1: No one bullied them.

89
00:05:18,210 --> 00:05:26,930
Speaker 5: So I started to fantasize daydream about robbing a bank.

90
00:05:33,330 --> 00:05:36,289
Speaker 5: I had this image of going into a bank and

91
00:05:36,369 --> 00:05:39,849
Speaker 5: getting a big bag of money, and the place that

92
00:05:39,890 --> 00:05:42,650
Speaker 5: I dreamed about going to was New York. I thought

93
00:05:42,650 --> 00:05:44,810
Speaker 5: of New York as being synonymous with the mafia, and

94
00:05:44,849 --> 00:05:47,890
Speaker 5: I thought, well, maybe if I could go there. Somehow

95
00:05:48,289 --> 00:05:51,729
Speaker 5: I could ingratiate myself to someone in that family, and

96
00:05:51,849 --> 00:05:53,650
Speaker 5: that would become my new family as supposed to this

97
00:05:53,690 --> 00:05:55,570
Speaker 5: family doesn't seem to want me, and who I can

98
00:05:55,609 --> 00:05:56,650
Speaker 5: do nothing right for.

99
00:05:57,890 --> 00:06:01,010
Speaker 1: It was all just a child's fantasy until one day

100
00:06:01,049 --> 00:06:04,450
Speaker 1: in class when ex witnessed something that made him realize

101
00:06:04,450 --> 00:06:07,890
Speaker 1: it might be time to act. A quiet, smaller kid

102
00:06:07,969 --> 00:06:11,690
Speaker 1: said something to a bigger, tougher kid. The bigger kid pounced.

103
00:06:12,169 --> 00:06:15,529
Speaker 5: He started kicking him and including kicking him in the face.

104
00:06:16,849 --> 00:06:21,770
Speaker 5: That really shook me. On my way home on the

105
00:06:21,810 --> 00:06:25,970
Speaker 5: bus that day, I remember thinking I got to get

106
00:06:25,969 --> 00:06:26,529
Speaker 5: out of here.

107
00:06:26,690 --> 00:06:28,730
Speaker 1: Like you're gonna you. Felt like there was more of

108
00:06:28,770 --> 00:06:30,810
Speaker 1: an imperative, like you were next.

109
00:06:31,450 --> 00:06:37,370
Speaker 5: Yeah, because I saw myself as that powerless kid. And

110
00:06:37,450 --> 00:06:43,089
Speaker 5: I even this is like years and years and years ago,

111
00:06:43,130 --> 00:06:46,249
Speaker 5: and it still get so emotional about it. It's like,

112
00:06:46,289 --> 00:06:48,609
Speaker 5: what a horrible way to, you know, go through a day.

113
00:06:48,650 --> 00:06:51,050
Speaker 5: And I just thought, I don't want that to be me.

114
00:06:52,089 --> 00:06:54,490
Speaker 1: And so he came up with a plan. There was

115
00:06:54,529 --> 00:06:56,969
Speaker 1: a bank down town where his mom was a customer.

116
00:06:57,609 --> 00:07:00,690
Speaker 1: In the movies, there was always a silent alarm, which

117
00:07:00,729 --> 00:07:02,689
Speaker 1: meant he'd only have a few minutes to do what

118
00:07:02,729 --> 00:07:05,609
Speaker 1: he needed to before the police arrived. He'd have to

119
00:07:05,609 --> 00:07:09,250
Speaker 1: move quickly. He'd also need to hide out. It was

120
00:07:09,250 --> 00:07:12,050
Speaker 1: a hotel about a block away from the bank. After

121
00:07:12,090 --> 00:07:15,010
Speaker 1: the robbery, he could rent a room. Once the coast

122
00:07:15,090 --> 00:07:17,330
Speaker 1: was clear. He called a taxi to take him to

123
00:07:17,369 --> 00:07:20,570
Speaker 1: the airport, and then it was off to New York.

124
00:07:21,610 --> 00:07:23,970
Speaker 1: And this is the part of the story that feels

125
00:07:24,050 --> 00:07:25,210
Speaker 1: hardest for X to tell.

126
00:07:26,170 --> 00:07:33,690
Speaker 5: Okay, I my dad owned a shotgun which he had

127
00:07:33,770 --> 00:07:39,170
Speaker 5: used to hunt. It was in a closet and the

128
00:07:39,210 --> 00:07:41,850
Speaker 5: first thing I did when I got home was I

129
00:07:41,890 --> 00:07:44,010
Speaker 5: took that gun. I took it into my bedroom and

130
00:07:44,130 --> 00:07:46,689
Speaker 5: with the hack saw, I saw the barrel off so

131
00:07:46,850 --> 00:07:56,970
Speaker 5: it would be easy to carry. I remember, once the

132
00:07:57,010 --> 00:08:00,530
Speaker 5: barrel came off and I had removed it, I thought, Okay,

133
00:08:01,530 --> 00:08:03,050
Speaker 5: I don't really know if I want to do this.

134
00:08:03,290 --> 00:08:07,170
Speaker 5: I'm kind of terrified. But now I'm in like I

135
00:08:07,489 --> 00:08:10,809
Speaker 5: can't on this track. Now that I can't back up on,

136
00:08:10,890 --> 00:08:13,929
Speaker 5: I have to go forward because I've now destroyed. My

137
00:08:14,050 --> 00:08:21,530
Speaker 5: Dad's gone, and eventually that will come to light. I

138
00:08:21,570 --> 00:08:26,249
Speaker 5: didn't sleep very well that night. I got up in

139
00:08:26,290 --> 00:08:28,930
Speaker 5: the morning you know, after staring at the ceiling for

140
00:08:29,010 --> 00:08:34,010
Speaker 5: what seemed like ours. I remember going out and my

141
00:08:34,090 --> 00:08:36,370
Speaker 5: mom was putting breakfast on the table. The television was

142
00:08:36,410 --> 00:08:38,449
Speaker 5: on and they were talking about the nineteen ninety two

143
00:08:38,530 --> 00:08:42,850
Speaker 5: presidential campaign and the governor Bill Clinton, and I just

144
00:08:42,930 --> 00:08:46,290
Speaker 5: remember thinking, like, this is a world I'm no longer

145
00:08:46,330 --> 00:08:51,610
Speaker 5: part of. I don't none of that means anything to me. Today,

146
00:08:51,690 --> 00:08:54,970
Speaker 5: I'm going into a whole different world and I'm leaving

147
00:08:54,970 --> 00:08:55,690
Speaker 5: this one behind.

148
00:08:57,610 --> 00:09:01,010
Speaker 1: It was October, the beginning of ninth grade. Ex it

149
00:09:01,210 --> 00:09:10,690
Speaker 1: just turned fourteen years old. Xpact suitcase with some clothes

150
00:09:10,730 --> 00:09:14,050
Speaker 1: and books and a few favorite CDs, iced tea. They

151
00:09:14,130 --> 00:09:16,770
Speaker 1: might be giants. He stole a pair of his mother's

152
00:09:16,810 --> 00:09:20,370
Speaker 1: pantyhose to pull over his face as a disguise. He

153
00:09:20,410 --> 00:09:22,490
Speaker 1: put on a trench coat and hid the sod Off

154
00:09:22,490 --> 00:09:25,929
Speaker 1: shotgun inside. As he got on the school bus, the

155
00:09:26,050 --> 00:09:29,929
Speaker 1: driver asked about his outfit. It's for drama class, he said.

156
00:09:30,930 --> 00:09:33,210
Speaker 1: When the bus arrived at school, he was the last

157
00:09:33,210 --> 00:09:36,530
Speaker 1: to get off. All around him, kids were streaming out

158
00:09:36,570 --> 00:09:40,570
Speaker 1: of buses and parents' cars, filing into school, going about

159
00:09:40,570 --> 00:09:41,530
Speaker 1: another normal day.

160
00:09:42,570 --> 00:09:46,170
Speaker 5: And there was a moment of standing there and if

161
00:09:46,210 --> 00:09:49,250
Speaker 5: I turned left, I would be the crowd of kids

162
00:09:49,290 --> 00:09:52,530
Speaker 5: and heading towards the entrance to the school. And if

163
00:09:52,570 --> 00:09:55,730
Speaker 5: I turned right, I'd be off school grounds and walking

164
00:09:55,730 --> 00:09:56,850
Speaker 5: towards where the bank was.

165
00:09:57,770 --> 00:09:59,810
Speaker 1: Maybe it still wasn't too late to give up on

166
00:09:59,890 --> 00:10:00,650
Speaker 1: his plan.

167
00:10:01,010 --> 00:10:04,810
Speaker 5: Like I could just go to school and life could

168
00:10:04,850 --> 00:10:06,410
Speaker 5: just go back to what it was yesterday and the

169
00:10:06,490 --> 00:10:10,929
Speaker 5: day before. But I turned the other way, and I

170
00:10:10,970 --> 00:10:11,970
Speaker 5: walked towards the bank.

171
00:10:16,250 --> 00:10:19,170
Speaker 1: When X arrived, the bank was still closed. So at

172
00:10:19,170 --> 00:10:21,610
Speaker 1: the back of the bank's parking lot, he waited behind

173
00:10:21,650 --> 00:10:25,490
Speaker 1: some trees, and then at ten point fifteen he took

174
00:10:25,490 --> 00:10:29,650
Speaker 1: a deep breath. Okay, he thought, here we go.

175
00:10:30,090 --> 00:10:33,130
Speaker 5: And so I pulled stalking over my face and I

176
00:10:33,210 --> 00:10:36,970
Speaker 5: ran through the parking lot and I entered the bank

177
00:10:37,050 --> 00:10:40,010
Speaker 5: with the gun raised in the air, and I yelled

178
00:10:40,050 --> 00:10:42,810
Speaker 5: something to the effect of everybody get on the floor,

179
00:10:42,850 --> 00:10:49,370
Speaker 5: and this is a robbery. It was like a dream,

180
00:10:49,530 --> 00:10:52,570
Speaker 5: or like watching someone else go through these actions, like

181
00:10:52,610 --> 00:10:55,890
Speaker 5: I was a passenger and they were doing the driving.

182
00:10:56,650 --> 00:10:56,929
Speaker 1: Yeah.

183
00:10:57,770 --> 00:11:01,690
Speaker 5: I remember there was a guy, the first person who

184
00:11:01,770 --> 00:11:05,130
Speaker 5: was standing in line, and he turned toward me and

185
00:11:05,610 --> 00:11:08,970
Speaker 5: started laughing. I don't know if he thought it was

186
00:11:08,970 --> 00:11:11,050
Speaker 5: a joke, or he just couldn't believe that this little

187
00:11:11,170 --> 00:11:14,130
Speaker 5: pipsqueak voice kid was holding up a bank or something.

188
00:11:15,250 --> 00:11:17,890
Speaker 5: But that really made me mad. I felt like I

189
00:11:17,930 --> 00:11:21,370
Speaker 5: was being laughed at, and so I pointed the gun

190
00:11:21,410 --> 00:11:24,050
Speaker 5: at him and said this isn't a joke, and he

191
00:11:24,090 --> 00:11:26,090
Speaker 5: got down, and I remember feeling kind of a surge

192
00:11:26,130 --> 00:11:28,010
Speaker 5: of like, Okay, this is power.

193
00:11:29,170 --> 00:11:30,690
Speaker 1: Had you ever used a gun before?

194
00:11:31,330 --> 00:11:33,250
Speaker 5: No, I was actually kind of scared of him, Like

195
00:11:33,530 --> 00:11:35,490
Speaker 5: I didn't load this gun because I was scared that

196
00:11:35,610 --> 00:11:37,410
Speaker 5: I would get hurt or somebody would get hurt. I

197
00:11:37,410 --> 00:11:39,450
Speaker 5: didn't want to hurt anybody.

198
00:11:39,770 --> 00:11:41,410
Speaker 1: X knew that most of the money would be in

199
00:11:41,450 --> 00:11:44,330
Speaker 1: the vault. He forced two bank tellers to bring him

200
00:11:44,330 --> 00:11:46,770
Speaker 1: in there and told them the stuff stacks of bills

201
00:11:46,770 --> 00:11:49,970
Speaker 1: into his bag. When the bag grew full, he picked

202
00:11:49,970 --> 00:11:52,730
Speaker 1: it up and walked past all the customers still lying

203
00:11:52,770 --> 00:11:56,210
Speaker 1: on the floor. Then he exited out the front door

204
00:11:56,370 --> 00:11:58,690
Speaker 1: and made his way to a dumpster, where he threw

205
00:11:58,770 --> 00:11:59,929
Speaker 1: away the shotgun.

206
00:12:00,250 --> 00:12:03,410
Speaker 5: And I entered the hotel just a teenager with a

207
00:12:03,450 --> 00:12:09,650
Speaker 5: green and yellow sports bag of over forty thousand dollars.

208
00:12:10,810 --> 00:12:16,050
Speaker 1: Unbelievably, the plan had worked. Now X just had to

209
00:12:16,090 --> 00:12:19,250
Speaker 1: wait out the police who would be responding to the scene,

210
00:12:19,290 --> 00:12:22,650
Speaker 1: and then he'd be off to New York. He marched

211
00:12:22,690 --> 00:12:25,130
Speaker 1: up to the hotel clerk and asked for a room.

212
00:12:25,330 --> 00:12:28,410
Speaker 5: And she kind of looked at me, like what, and

213
00:12:28,450 --> 00:12:30,730
Speaker 5: she said, I'm sorry. All of our rooms are rented

214
00:12:30,730 --> 00:12:32,970
Speaker 5: by the month. This isn't like that kind of hotel

215
00:12:32,970 --> 00:12:34,850
Speaker 5: where you can come and just get a room for

216
00:12:34,890 --> 00:12:35,210
Speaker 5: a night.

217
00:12:35,930 --> 00:12:40,170
Speaker 1: Daily versus monthly raids the one thing movies hadn't prepared

218
00:12:40,250 --> 00:12:44,250
Speaker 1: him for. Ex panicked, he couldn't just hang out in

219
00:12:44,290 --> 00:12:47,850
Speaker 1: the lobby. A kid playing hooky would draw attention, So

220
00:12:47,890 --> 00:12:49,610
Speaker 1: he headed out the hotel door.

221
00:12:49,930 --> 00:12:51,929
Speaker 5: And right on the corner of the street as a

222
00:12:51,930 --> 00:12:53,650
Speaker 5: police officer.

223
00:12:54,050 --> 00:12:57,370
Speaker 1: X had two options walk away from the officer, which

224
00:12:57,490 --> 00:12:59,970
Speaker 1: might look suspicious, or walk towards him.

225
00:13:00,370 --> 00:13:02,170
Speaker 5: And so I decided to walk towards him and try

226
00:13:02,170 --> 00:13:03,370
Speaker 5: to act as cool as I could.

227
00:13:04,370 --> 00:13:07,530
Speaker 1: Just after passing the officer and crossing the street, he

228
00:13:07,530 --> 00:13:14,690
Speaker 1: heard the policeman cry out freeze. When X turned around,

229
00:13:14,850 --> 00:13:22,730
Speaker 1: the cops gun was pointed right at him. X was

230
00:13:22,810 --> 00:13:26,929
Speaker 1: arrested and from there things moved quickly. At the police station,

231
00:13:27,170 --> 00:13:29,330
Speaker 1: he confessed to the crime and a date was said

232
00:13:29,370 --> 00:13:32,610
Speaker 1: in juvenile court. X spent the next few nights in

233
00:13:32,690 --> 00:13:36,450
Speaker 1: jail because his parents couldn't afford a lawyer, one was

234
00:13:36,490 --> 00:13:40,050
Speaker 1: appointed to him. After the court proceedings, he was allowed

235
00:13:40,050 --> 00:13:42,570
Speaker 1: to see his parents. It was his first time seeing

236
00:13:42,570 --> 00:13:44,970
Speaker 1: them since breakfast on the morning of the robbery.

237
00:13:45,690 --> 00:13:49,090
Speaker 5: They were just destroyed, Like I've never seen them cry

238
00:13:49,130 --> 00:13:53,690
Speaker 5: as much and be so like it was hard for

239
00:13:53,730 --> 00:13:57,450
Speaker 5: me to look at they were so upset, and yeah,

240
00:13:57,450 --> 00:13:58,410
Speaker 5: they just looked broken.

241
00:13:59,370 --> 00:14:03,050
Speaker 1: A few days later, X was sentenced to twelve years.

242
00:14:03,610 --> 00:14:07,090
Speaker 5: I remember hearing that big, long number and thinking, Okay, well,

243
00:14:07,090 --> 00:14:08,410
Speaker 5: I guess they're not going to let me off because

244
00:14:08,450 --> 00:14:10,730
Speaker 5: I was a kid. And I remember going back to

245
00:14:10,770 --> 00:14:13,570
Speaker 5: my cell and crying because it was like, Okay, this

246
00:14:13,610 --> 00:14:15,730
Speaker 5: is really sinking in now, like I'm going to be

247
00:14:15,730 --> 00:14:16,730
Speaker 5: here for a long time.

248
00:14:19,170 --> 00:14:21,090
Speaker 1: X was sent to a youth facility, where he was

249
00:14:21,130 --> 00:14:23,650
Speaker 1: one of the youngest inmates. He spent a lot of

250
00:14:23,690 --> 00:14:28,090
Speaker 1: time reading, mostly the classics Dickens, Moby Dick, the Bible.

251
00:14:28,930 --> 00:14:32,530
Speaker 1: He underwent an intensive treatment program of daily therapies and

252
00:14:32,610 --> 00:14:36,930
Speaker 1: took his rehabilitation seriously. After three years, when his case

253
00:14:36,970 --> 00:14:39,730
Speaker 1: came up for review, he was released at the age

254
00:14:39,770 --> 00:14:50,650
Speaker 1: of seventeen. From here. Ex's story, and I mean this

255
00:14:50,690 --> 00:14:54,330
Speaker 1: in a good way, is unremarkable. He went to college,

256
00:14:54,450 --> 00:14:56,570
Speaker 1: he got married, and has had good jobs.

257
00:14:56,970 --> 00:14:58,810
Speaker 5: I ended up at one point working in the bank,

258
00:14:58,850 --> 00:15:01,050
Speaker 5: which wow, yeah, kind of funny.

259
00:15:01,690 --> 00:15:04,610
Speaker 1: It's been over thirty years since the day of the robbery,

260
00:15:05,170 --> 00:15:08,530
Speaker 1: and in many ways xis turned his life completely around.

261
00:15:09,410 --> 00:15:11,610
Speaker 1: And yet when he thinks about that day.

262
00:15:12,090 --> 00:15:19,330
Speaker 5: I really feel so ashamed and so regretful.

263
00:15:19,690 --> 00:15:22,530
Speaker 1: So much so that it's almost like he's divided himself

264
00:15:22,570 --> 00:15:25,850
Speaker 1: into there's the boy who is capable of committing that

265
00:15:25,970 --> 00:15:29,130
Speaker 1: crime and the grown man to whom that boy is

266
00:15:29,170 --> 00:15:32,250
Speaker 1: a stranger. A part of the reason it's been so

267
00:15:32,410 --> 00:15:35,490
Speaker 1: hard for X to tell the story is because, in

268
00:15:35,530 --> 00:15:38,610
Speaker 1: a weird way, it's like he's telling someone else's story,

269
00:15:39,290 --> 00:15:42,130
Speaker 1: and it's a story that all his life he's been

270
00:15:42,170 --> 00:15:43,650
Speaker 1: told no one wants to hear.

271
00:15:44,530 --> 00:15:46,810
Speaker 5: My parents, in particular, just want to pretend like it

272
00:15:46,850 --> 00:15:51,810
Speaker 5: never even happened. And they were very embarrassed and kept

273
00:15:51,810 --> 00:15:53,050
Speaker 5: a very secret.

274
00:15:53,570 --> 00:15:55,250
Speaker 8: It wasn't a matter of just don't tell anyone, it

275
00:15:55,290 --> 00:15:57,850
Speaker 8: was if anybody asks. He went to go live with

276
00:15:57,850 --> 00:15:59,770
Speaker 8: one of your older brothers.

277
00:15:59,650 --> 00:16:02,770
Speaker 1: I spoke to several of X's six brothers to hear

278
00:16:02,850 --> 00:16:04,650
Speaker 1: how the crime impacted the family.

279
00:16:05,370 --> 00:16:09,290
Speaker 7: My mom, I think, was really embarrassed by this. The

280
00:16:09,290 --> 00:16:12,010
Speaker 7: community would judge her. For years, I didn't tell people

281
00:16:12,010 --> 00:16:14,010
Speaker 7: about it, like well into my adulthood.

282
00:16:14,850 --> 00:16:18,170
Speaker 8: It wasn't until maybe my sophomore year of high school

283
00:16:18,250 --> 00:16:21,410
Speaker 8: that I shared it with some very close friends.

284
00:16:21,610 --> 00:16:23,290
Speaker 1: Yeah, and how did that feel?

285
00:16:25,410 --> 00:16:25,930
Speaker 7: It was weird.

286
00:16:25,970 --> 00:16:28,170
Speaker 8: I remember being really nervous, like, oh my gosh, are

287
00:16:28,170 --> 00:16:28,930
Speaker 8: they going to judge me?

288
00:16:29,490 --> 00:16:29,970
Speaker 1: Yeah?

289
00:16:30,330 --> 00:16:31,930
Speaker 7: You know, when you're told as a nine year old

290
00:16:31,930 --> 00:16:35,170
Speaker 7: that this thing is really embarrassing and shameful, you almost

291
00:16:35,210 --> 00:16:36,330
Speaker 7: absorb it as like your own.

292
00:16:36,730 --> 00:16:40,090
Speaker 8: You take it on, you know, to feel compelled to

293
00:16:40,210 --> 00:16:42,290
Speaker 8: keep up a lie, to feel shame.

294
00:16:42,970 --> 00:16:47,850
Speaker 7: That's that's difficult for a nine year old.

295
00:16:48,770 --> 00:16:50,810
Speaker 1: And it can remain difficult.

296
00:16:51,730 --> 00:16:55,570
Speaker 3: I didn't feel comfortable breaking about silence.

297
00:16:56,290 --> 00:16:59,690
Speaker 1: This is another of X's brothers, now a middle aged man.

298
00:17:00,210 --> 00:17:02,650
Speaker 3: Even you know now my wife, I've been married to

299
00:17:02,650 --> 00:17:05,330
Speaker 3: her for over twenty years. I've never told her about it.

300
00:17:06,649 --> 00:17:11,090
Speaker 1: You've never you've never told your wife about your brother? Yeah,

301
00:17:11,129 --> 00:17:18,090
Speaker 1: that's right, until even now. Yeah, Wow, did you feel

302
00:17:18,090 --> 00:17:20,290
Speaker 1: compelled to share it with her at any point.

303
00:17:21,169 --> 00:17:23,090
Speaker 3: I could say, I don't know. Over the last couple

304
00:17:23,090 --> 00:17:25,969
Speaker 3: of decades, it's probably been one or two instances where

305
00:17:26,050 --> 00:17:30,289
Speaker 3: I thought about mentioning it. But after this interview I

306
00:17:30,330 --> 00:17:33,890
Speaker 3: may tell her. Probably probably will, but it hasn't come

307
00:17:33,970 --> 00:17:34,649
Speaker 3: up yet.

308
00:17:40,169 --> 00:17:43,810
Speaker 1: Shame can be silencing, and so for thirty years X

309
00:17:43,889 --> 00:17:47,369
Speaker 1: has kept quiet, but it hasn't prevented him from thinking

310
00:17:47,409 --> 00:17:50,090
Speaker 1: about the people in the bank that day, which is

311
00:17:50,129 --> 00:17:51,050
Speaker 1: why he's come to me.

312
00:17:52,970 --> 00:17:55,729
Speaker 5: The people that were there, I was hoping that I

313
00:17:55,850 --> 00:17:57,850
Speaker 5: might be able to at least let them know in

314
00:17:57,889 --> 00:18:01,529
Speaker 5: some fashion that I'm really sorry that I destroyed their

315
00:18:01,570 --> 00:18:03,370
Speaker 5: peace and left them with a lot of trauma.

316
00:18:04,250 --> 00:18:07,009
Speaker 1: In all those movies X love to watch, after the

317
00:18:07,050 --> 00:18:11,129
Speaker 1: crime is committed, the camera remains on the criminal, the star.

318
00:18:12,129 --> 00:18:16,449
Speaker 1: It never follows the customers, the employees. They're just extras.

319
00:18:17,010 --> 00:18:20,050
Speaker 1: But X wants to know what became of them, how

320
00:18:20,090 --> 00:18:23,129
Speaker 1: that day fits into their lives, and most of all,

321
00:18:23,570 --> 00:18:25,649
Speaker 1: he wants to apologize.

322
00:18:25,810 --> 00:18:27,570
Speaker 5: I tried to imagine what the rest of their day

323
00:18:27,689 --> 00:18:31,290
Speaker 5: was like. I'm guessing they went home early and spouses

324
00:18:31,330 --> 00:18:34,289
Speaker 5: were called, their children were called, and they had to

325
00:18:34,290 --> 00:18:37,490
Speaker 5: tell that story, probably multiple times to police. To family

326
00:18:38,689 --> 00:18:41,690
Speaker 5: and relive it, and how do they sleep that night

327
00:18:42,290 --> 00:18:47,810
Speaker 5: and for the nights to come. It is just horrific

328
00:18:47,889 --> 00:18:54,170
Speaker 5: to me. And I talked earlier about the students at

329
00:18:54,169 --> 00:18:58,129
Speaker 5: the school who I saw get beat up. I empathized

330
00:18:58,169 --> 00:19:01,050
Speaker 5: with the guy on the floor getting his face kicked.

331
00:19:01,970 --> 00:19:03,810
Speaker 5: It never would have occurred to me that I would

332
00:19:03,810 --> 00:19:07,210
Speaker 5: have been the bully in that scenario, that I would

333
00:19:07,209 --> 00:19:09,729
Speaker 5: be the one metaphorically anyway, doing the kicking.

334
00:19:15,330 --> 00:19:19,050
Speaker 1: After the break the day of the robbery. From the

335
00:19:19,090 --> 00:19:42,930
Speaker 1: perspective of the victims, when X thinks about apologizing, there

336
00:19:42,929 --> 00:19:47,129
Speaker 1: are three people he wants to apologize too. First, the

337
00:19:47,169 --> 00:19:49,969
Speaker 1: bank tellers, the two women who led him into the

338
00:19:50,010 --> 00:19:50,770
Speaker 1: vault that day.

339
00:19:51,490 --> 00:19:54,369
Speaker 5: That vault was a very small room, and they were

340
00:19:54,369 --> 00:19:56,529
Speaker 5: in very close proximity.

341
00:19:56,449 --> 00:19:59,649
Speaker 1: To me, so close in fact, that at one point,

342
00:19:59,850 --> 00:20:03,530
Speaker 1: while opening his gym bag, X unthinkingly leaned the shotgun

343
00:20:03,609 --> 00:20:05,010
Speaker 1: against one of their thighs.

344
00:20:05,409 --> 00:20:07,650
Speaker 5: They didn't know it wasn't loaded, they didn't know how

345
00:20:07,730 --> 00:20:11,090
Speaker 5: unstable I was. They didn't know any and to feel

346
00:20:11,090 --> 00:20:14,330
Speaker 5: the weight of that against their leg is just horrifying.

347
00:20:18,970 --> 00:20:21,850
Speaker 1: The other person X wants to apologize to is the

348
00:20:21,929 --> 00:20:23,649
Speaker 1: officer who arrested him that day.

349
00:20:24,129 --> 00:20:26,609
Speaker 5: There's some stuff that's fuzzy, but I remember this very well.

350
00:20:27,290 --> 00:20:29,570
Speaker 1: After the policeman yelled for him to drop the money,

351
00:20:30,169 --> 00:20:32,490
Speaker 1: X reached into his back pocket where he had kept

352
00:20:32,490 --> 00:20:35,490
Speaker 1: a few bills, dashed for his cab to the airport.

353
00:20:35,490 --> 00:20:41,530
Speaker 5: Not thinking how a police officer might perceive someone reaching

354
00:20:41,649 --> 00:20:47,450
Speaker 5: behind their back and pulling something out. I found out

355
00:20:47,530 --> 00:20:51,689
Speaker 5: later that he came very close to shooting me, and

356
00:20:51,770 --> 00:20:56,209
Speaker 5: that the cop was very distraught thinking that he almost

357
00:20:56,250 --> 00:20:57,530
Speaker 5: shot a teenage kid.

358
00:21:00,970 --> 00:21:04,530
Speaker 1: Team nabbed for bank theft, reads a local newspaper the

359
00:21:04,609 --> 00:21:08,570
Speaker 1: day after the robbery. The article names the arresting policeman

360
00:21:08,770 --> 00:21:13,289
Speaker 1: as Officer Roy Tupin. Our search for Officer Tupin is

361
00:21:13,290 --> 00:21:17,090
Speaker 1: a few years too late, though. In twenty nineteen, Tupin

362
00:21:17,129 --> 00:21:20,810
Speaker 1: died in a diving accident. My name is Nick Tupin.

363
00:21:21,409 --> 00:21:23,289
Speaker 4: I'm the son of the arresting officer.

364
00:21:23,330 --> 00:21:24,370
Speaker 7: On the day of the robbery.

365
00:21:25,330 --> 00:21:27,850
Speaker 1: Nick says his dad told him stories about that day.

366
00:21:28,330 --> 00:21:28,930
Speaker 7: It's mine all.

367
00:21:29,250 --> 00:21:33,050
Speaker 4: That was the closest that he'd ever gotten to shooting anyone.

368
00:21:33,970 --> 00:21:35,530
Speaker 5: It shook his world.

369
00:21:36,330 --> 00:21:38,570
Speaker 4: He took some time off of work, you know, he

370
00:21:38,689 --> 00:21:42,730
Speaker 4: wasn't sure that that was his career path anymore.

371
00:21:43,490 --> 00:21:44,210
Speaker 9: I know that.

372
00:21:46,369 --> 00:21:48,129
Speaker 7: It messed with him, you know what I mean?

373
00:21:49,290 --> 00:21:51,850
Speaker 1: One thing Tupin never shared with his son was what

374
00:21:51,970 --> 00:21:55,410
Speaker 1: kept him from shooting acts when he reached into his pocket.

375
00:21:55,530 --> 00:21:56,889
Speaker 1: But Nick has a theory.

376
00:21:57,090 --> 00:21:59,769
Speaker 7: Fourteen years old. Yeah, I'm forty three now.

377
00:21:59,770 --> 00:22:01,929
Speaker 4: I was born in seventy eight, So you do the math.

378
00:22:02,609 --> 00:22:05,570
Speaker 1: Huh, Yeah, you would have been about the same age.

379
00:22:06,090 --> 00:22:08,570
Speaker 4: I'd imagine he looked at that kid like he was

380
00:22:08,570 --> 00:22:09,090
Speaker 4: looking at me.

381
00:22:09,169 --> 00:22:13,250
Speaker 1: He kind of do. When I tell Nick about X's undertaking,

382
00:22:13,609 --> 00:22:15,810
Speaker 1: how he's been hoping to make amends for that day,

383
00:22:16,449 --> 00:22:17,450
Speaker 1: he offers this.

384
00:22:18,169 --> 00:22:21,649
Speaker 4: I think Dad would have forgiven him a long time ago.

385
00:22:23,090 --> 00:22:23,649
Speaker 7: I really do.

386
00:22:24,490 --> 00:22:25,690
Speaker 1: What makes you think that.

387
00:22:26,810 --> 00:22:29,129
Speaker 4: As he got older, just some of the rhetorics that

388
00:22:30,290 --> 00:22:35,690
Speaker 4: you know, people make mistakes and you just hope, like Hill,

389
00:22:35,810 --> 00:22:38,689
Speaker 4: that they don't have life changing consequences.

390
00:22:39,649 --> 00:22:51,810
Speaker 1: For what it's worth, After speaking with Nick, I turned

391
00:22:51,810 --> 00:22:55,769
Speaker 1: my attention to the bank tellers. They aren't identified in

392
00:22:55,810 --> 00:22:59,010
Speaker 1: any of the articles, and the police reports have redacted

393
00:22:59,050 --> 00:23:02,490
Speaker 1: their names, And since the courthouse records have been sealed

394
00:23:02,609 --> 00:23:05,689
Speaker 1: and the bank itself no longer exists, I decide that

395
00:23:05,730 --> 00:23:07,969
Speaker 1: my best bet is to post a sort of missing

396
00:23:07,970 --> 00:23:12,090
Speaker 1: person's notice the local paper. I ask if there's anyone

397
00:23:12,129 --> 00:23:15,250
Speaker 1: who might remember the bank robbery from over thirty years ago,

398
00:23:15,770 --> 00:23:19,889
Speaker 1: or the bank employees from that time. One person responds,

399
00:23:20,689 --> 00:23:23,129
Speaker 1: she doesn't know the tellers, but she does know about

400
00:23:23,169 --> 00:23:26,530
Speaker 1: the robbery. Even though my ad didn't mention X by name,

401
00:23:26,970 --> 00:23:30,889
Speaker 1: she knew who it was immediately. I sat behind X

402
00:23:30,970 --> 00:23:35,010
Speaker 1: in Spanish class, she says, and so the day after

403
00:23:35,050 --> 00:23:38,209
Speaker 1: the robbery, when a photo of X lying face down

404
00:23:38,369 --> 00:23:42,530
Speaker 1: was published in the newspaper, she recognized him because her

405
00:23:42,530 --> 00:23:45,090
Speaker 1: desk was behind his. She knew the back of his

406
00:23:45,209 --> 00:23:48,449
Speaker 1: head well. He had a small bald spot, and the

407
00:23:48,449 --> 00:23:52,969
Speaker 1: bullies teased him about it relentlessly. I emailed because I

408
00:23:53,090 --> 00:23:55,889
Speaker 1: was thinking, if X wants to talk about why he

409
00:23:55,970 --> 00:23:59,249
Speaker 1: did it, he probably would say he was bullied. I

410
00:23:59,290 --> 00:24:00,290
Speaker 1: want to back him up.

411
00:24:01,369 --> 00:24:01,770
Speaker 7: She says.

412
00:24:01,810 --> 00:24:05,129
Speaker 1: She can understand why X felt so desperate. She was

413
00:24:05,169 --> 00:24:08,529
Speaker 1: a target of the same bullies. She too, spent her

414
00:24:08,609 --> 00:24:12,090
Speaker 1: lunches in the library, in her case, reading science fiction

415
00:24:12,609 --> 00:24:16,090
Speaker 1: and imagining a life in a different world. It makes

416
00:24:16,090 --> 00:24:20,009
Speaker 1: me sad, she says. If he stuck around, maybe we

417
00:24:20,050 --> 00:24:32,330
Speaker 1: would have been friends. Because the missing person noticed yields

418
00:24:32,409 --> 00:24:35,570
Speaker 1: no leads. I start combing through old articles for names

419
00:24:35,570 --> 00:24:37,210
Speaker 1: that might connect me to the tellers.

420
00:24:37,850 --> 00:24:40,689
Speaker 9: Hi, I'm William and I was a customer in the

421
00:24:40,689 --> 00:24:41,570
Speaker 9: bank on the day.

422
00:24:41,409 --> 00:24:42,050
Speaker 7: Of the robbery.

423
00:24:42,929 --> 00:24:45,529
Speaker 1: Not only was William a customer, but in one of

424
00:24:45,530 --> 00:24:48,929
Speaker 1: the articles I read, he's described as chasing X after

425
00:24:48,970 --> 00:24:51,489
Speaker 1: he fled in hopes of apprehending him.

426
00:24:51,770 --> 00:24:57,330
Speaker 9: Anytime you're facing somebody in a combat situation, everything else

427
00:24:57,369 --> 00:25:01,369
Speaker 9: around you disappears. But it just went tunnel vision on

428
00:25:01,449 --> 00:25:04,369
Speaker 9: this guy, who is the son of a bitch.

429
00:25:05,129 --> 00:25:08,609
Speaker 1: What inspired you? Are you a risk taker kind of person?

430
00:25:09,609 --> 00:25:13,369
Speaker 9: Many years of martial art training, that's where that comes from.

431
00:25:13,730 --> 00:25:17,889
Speaker 1: No fear. Before I can ask William about the bank tellers,

432
00:25:18,209 --> 00:25:20,609
Speaker 1: we're interrupted. But just one second.

433
00:25:21,330 --> 00:25:24,129
Speaker 9: We're going to order something from a drive in.

434
00:25:25,010 --> 00:25:27,529
Speaker 1: William is talking to me from his car. He's with

435
00:25:27,649 --> 00:25:30,449
Speaker 1: his wife. The two of us hadn't eaten the.

436
00:25:30,649 --> 00:25:33,650
Speaker 9: Doctor's office all day. So I'm going to interrupt you.

437
00:25:33,570 --> 00:25:34,970
Speaker 5: Here, gonna place his order.

438
00:25:35,010 --> 00:25:37,290
Speaker 1: Yeah, don't mind me. Where's that button? O?

439
00:25:38,290 --> 00:25:38,409
Speaker 5: Hi?

440
00:25:39,290 --> 00:25:44,330
Speaker 4: Yes, this is a small order of nuggets or six.

441
00:25:46,209 --> 00:25:51,129
Speaker 1: Just for quickly, I do the math. Four divided by

442
00:25:51,250 --> 00:25:57,969
Speaker 1: two is two two nuggets per spouse. For those of

443
00:25:58,010 --> 00:26:03,330
Speaker 1: you unfamiliar with nugget abortioning or nuganomics, eating two nuggets

444
00:26:03,409 --> 00:26:07,369
Speaker 1: is like eating two grapes, two peanuts. It's like eating

445
00:26:07,409 --> 00:26:12,250
Speaker 1: two nuggets. With my microphone muted to William, I process

446
00:26:12,369 --> 00:26:17,449
Speaker 1: my feelings of judgmentalness to my producer Stevie, like you're starving,

447
00:26:17,490 --> 00:26:19,050
Speaker 1: and you're like, oh my god, I haven't need all day.

448
00:26:20,010 --> 00:26:25,649
Speaker 1: We'll share. We'll share four nuggets and like a nugget's

449
00:26:25,649 --> 00:26:26,050
Speaker 1: that big?

450
00:26:26,649 --> 00:26:27,889
Speaker 7: Okay, thank you?

451
00:26:28,850 --> 00:26:32,769
Speaker 1: All right, so go right ahead. I proceed with the

452
00:26:32,770 --> 00:26:36,689
Speaker 1: most pressing question is that that's all you're getting.

453
00:26:37,409 --> 00:26:39,369
Speaker 9: Well, well, we have a nice dinner plan, so we

454
00:26:39,409 --> 00:26:42,649
Speaker 9: don't want to wreck at the dinner, you know. So

455
00:26:42,689 --> 00:26:44,450
Speaker 9: I'm just going to get a little appetizer.

456
00:26:45,209 --> 00:26:49,450
Speaker 1: William has no fear, save the fear of ruining his appetite.

457
00:26:50,409 --> 00:26:52,810
Speaker 1: With that bit of housekeeping out of the way, I

458
00:26:52,889 --> 00:26:55,450
Speaker 1: ask William if he remembers the names of the tellers.

459
00:26:56,129 --> 00:26:58,570
Speaker 1: He says no, but he does remember X.

460
00:26:59,209 --> 00:27:02,609
Speaker 9: He yelled at everybody to get on the effing floor

461
00:27:03,290 --> 00:27:04,530
Speaker 9: or I'll blow your heads off.

462
00:27:05,050 --> 00:27:07,850
Speaker 1: Did he sound like a child.

463
00:27:07,530 --> 00:27:13,649
Speaker 9: No, he sounded very menacing, and he did not look

464
00:27:13,730 --> 00:27:14,330
Speaker 9: like a child.

465
00:27:15,330 --> 00:27:17,969
Speaker 1: EXIT told me that he looked like a pipsqueak kid.

466
00:27:18,290 --> 00:27:22,409
Speaker 1: That people laughed, but William says he doesn't remember any laughter,

467
00:27:23,090 --> 00:27:23,969
Speaker 1: only screaming.

468
00:27:24,770 --> 00:27:27,770
Speaker 9: I found out the next day that he was fourteen

469
00:27:27,850 --> 00:27:28,369
Speaker 9: years old.

470
00:27:30,050 --> 00:27:30,810
Speaker 6: I couldn't believe it.

471
00:27:30,929 --> 00:27:31,570
Speaker 1: Unbelievable.

472
00:27:32,090 --> 00:27:37,370
Speaker 9: Yeah, that takes hood spot or is real desperate.

473
00:27:41,330 --> 00:27:42,490
Speaker 1: My name is Lujan.

474
00:27:43,050 --> 00:27:46,609
Speaker 5: I was a former manager of the hotel.

475
00:27:46,449 --> 00:27:48,609
Speaker 1: In the Hope. There might be someone who can connect

476
00:27:48,649 --> 00:27:51,330
Speaker 1: me to the tellers. I spend my days speaking with

477
00:27:51,369 --> 00:27:53,690
Speaker 1: anyone vaguely associated with the robbery.

478
00:27:54,169 --> 00:27:58,129
Speaker 9: My name's Merritt, and I represented in the juvenile court

479
00:27:58,250 --> 00:28:01,529
Speaker 9: Michus George. I wrote for THEE my name.

480
00:28:01,409 --> 00:28:03,930
Speaker 1: Is Jane and I used to be the librarian at

481
00:28:04,209 --> 00:28:06,609
Speaker 1: high school. My name is Bail and I was a

482
00:28:06,609 --> 00:28:09,209
Speaker 1: police sergeant at the police department there. But now no

483
00:28:09,209 --> 00:28:12,489
Speaker 1: one can recall the tellers. Did you bank at that

484
00:28:12,570 --> 00:28:13,649
Speaker 1: bank across the street?

485
00:28:13,970 --> 00:28:14,090
Speaker 5: No?

486
00:28:14,169 --> 00:28:14,570
Speaker 1: I did not.

487
00:28:14,850 --> 00:28:17,730
Speaker 9: I wish I could help you, but I don't really remember.

488
00:28:17,889 --> 00:28:20,690
Speaker 1: Did you know any of the people that worked there?

489
00:28:21,129 --> 00:28:21,929
Speaker 6: No?

490
00:28:21,929 --> 00:28:25,289
Speaker 9: No, no, no, Sorry, I can't help you.

491
00:28:30,290 --> 00:28:35,290
Speaker 1: But then, after two months of phone calls, I call

492
00:28:35,330 --> 00:28:37,930
Speaker 1: a restaurant across the street from where the bank used

493
00:28:37,929 --> 00:28:40,770
Speaker 1: to be. The owner of the restaurant is now eighty

494
00:28:40,810 --> 00:28:44,090
Speaker 1: four years old. When I ask if she remembers anyone

495
00:28:44,130 --> 00:28:46,650
Speaker 1: who worked at the bank back then, anyone she was

496
00:28:46,690 --> 00:28:49,930
Speaker 1: friendly with, she gives me the names of two people,

497
00:28:50,410 --> 00:29:14,770
Speaker 1: two tellers, Darlene and Judy. It takes me a few weeks,

498
00:29:14,850 --> 00:29:18,009
Speaker 1: but eventually I find Darlene and Judy, and as it

499
00:29:18,050 --> 00:29:21,650
Speaker 1: turns out, incredibly, they were the very same tellers working

500
00:29:21,650 --> 00:29:24,930
Speaker 1: on the day of the robbery. After months of searching,

501
00:29:25,290 --> 00:29:28,489
Speaker 1: we found them. Judy is now in her eighties and

502
00:29:28,530 --> 00:29:30,969
Speaker 1: living in a retirement home, but when I speak with

503
00:29:31,050 --> 00:29:34,290
Speaker 1: her daughter, she tells me her mother isn't interested in talking,

504
00:29:34,650 --> 00:29:37,370
Speaker 1: that she wants to leave the past and the past.

505
00:29:37,970 --> 00:29:41,210
Speaker 1: As for Darlene, at first she seems open, but then

506
00:29:41,370 --> 00:29:44,450
Speaker 1: her husband grows ill and she stops returning my calls.

507
00:29:45,209 --> 00:29:47,370
Speaker 1: I can't tell if it's because her husband is sick,

508
00:29:47,890 --> 00:29:50,850
Speaker 1: or if she's changed her mind about revisiting that day.

509
00:29:51,810 --> 00:29:53,050
Speaker 5: Hey Jonathan, how are you?

510
00:29:53,209 --> 00:29:53,890
Speaker 1: Hey good?

511
00:29:53,890 --> 00:29:54,330
Speaker 6: How are you?

512
00:29:54,650 --> 00:29:57,289
Speaker 1: It's been over a year since I first spoke with X.

513
00:29:57,930 --> 00:29:59,970
Speaker 1: I tell him the bank tellers don't seem to want

514
00:30:00,010 --> 00:30:04,290
Speaker 1: to speak with him. X is disappointed, but says he understands.

515
00:30:04,850 --> 00:30:07,170
Speaker 1: He says it though, like he's starting to feel that

516
00:30:07,410 --> 00:30:10,490
Speaker 1: maybe this whole undertaking was to them.

517
00:30:10,530 --> 00:30:12,890
Speaker 5: I'm just still that same guy that did that thing.

518
00:30:13,890 --> 00:30:16,570
Speaker 5: It's hard for me to blame them, I guess.

519
00:30:17,650 --> 00:30:20,090
Speaker 1: I suggest to X that maybe he should try writing

520
00:30:20,130 --> 00:30:23,130
Speaker 1: a letter to Darlene, since she'd seemed open to talking

521
00:30:24,090 --> 00:30:26,450
Speaker 1: this way, maybe he can at least offer her as

522
00:30:26,610 --> 00:30:31,209
Speaker 1: words and she could decide what to do with them. Darlene,

523
00:30:31,650 --> 00:30:35,370
Speaker 1: X writes, I understand that words alone cannot undo the

524
00:30:35,370 --> 00:30:37,850
Speaker 1: pain I caused you and the others in the bank

525
00:30:37,890 --> 00:30:42,930
Speaker 1: that morning. Still, X expresses his regret, tells Darlene how

526
00:30:42,930 --> 00:30:47,690
Speaker 1: he's thought of her often. He apologizes many times. After

527
00:30:47,730 --> 00:30:50,650
Speaker 1: the letter is mailed off, two years passed, during which

528
00:30:50,930 --> 00:30:54,090
Speaker 1: X receives no response, and that's where I think our

529
00:30:54,130 --> 00:31:02,130
Speaker 1: story ends.

530
00:31:04,130 --> 00:31:05,930
Speaker 6: Hey Jonathan, Hey, how are you?

531
00:31:06,450 --> 00:31:08,570
Speaker 5: A lot has happened since we lost full Yeah well

532
00:31:08,610 --> 00:31:09,010
Speaker 5: yeah film.

533
00:31:09,930 --> 00:31:13,770
Speaker 1: But then in May five, X reaches out.

534
00:31:14,010 --> 00:31:16,490
Speaker 5: A year ago in November, I got a call from

535
00:31:16,490 --> 00:31:18,969
Speaker 5: one of my brothers, and he doesn't usually call me

536
00:31:19,010 --> 00:31:22,370
Speaker 5: on the phone, so I picked up and I found

537
00:31:22,370 --> 00:31:23,650
Speaker 5: out that my dad had passed away.

538
00:31:23,850 --> 00:31:25,529
Speaker 1: Oh so jeez, I'm sorry.

539
00:31:26,170 --> 00:31:27,450
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, thank you, thank you.

540
00:31:28,810 --> 00:31:31,690
Speaker 1: X says it was while helping write his father's obituary

541
00:31:31,930 --> 00:31:34,570
Speaker 1: and listening to his father be eulogized at the funeral,

542
00:31:34,970 --> 00:31:37,410
Speaker 1: hearing the people who loved him speak about all he'd

543
00:31:37,410 --> 00:31:39,730
Speaker 1: done in his life, that something happened.

544
00:31:40,410 --> 00:31:46,050
Speaker 5: It reminded me that this person was more than an

545
00:31:46,170 --> 00:31:50,090
Speaker 5: unequipped parent, or he was more than just the worst

546
00:31:50,130 --> 00:31:52,450
Speaker 5: experiences I had with him.

547
00:31:52,810 --> 00:31:56,009
Speaker 1: Taking a broader view of his father's life helped X

548
00:31:56,050 --> 00:31:58,730
Speaker 1: to zoom out on his own. There was the day

549
00:31:58,730 --> 00:32:01,370
Speaker 1: of the robbery, but then there were all the days

550
00:32:01,410 --> 00:32:04,850
Speaker 1: after too. If his father's legacy didn't have to be

551
00:32:04,890 --> 00:32:08,370
Speaker 1: defined by one bad thing, perhaps his own legacy didn't

552
00:32:08,410 --> 00:32:09,090
Speaker 1: have to be either.

553
00:32:09,930 --> 00:32:12,450
Speaker 5: You know, when we initially started talking, my hope was

554
00:32:12,530 --> 00:32:15,050
Speaker 5: that I would be able to speak to the people

555
00:32:15,090 --> 00:32:20,290
Speaker 5: who were there, and that didn't work out, And it

556
00:32:20,330 --> 00:32:23,009
Speaker 5: was hard for me, I think, because I almost felt

557
00:32:23,010 --> 00:32:28,330
Speaker 5: like until they forgave me, I wasn't allowed to forgive myself,

558
00:32:29,930 --> 00:32:32,850
Speaker 5: that that was like a luxury that I didn't deserve,

559
00:32:33,050 --> 00:32:33,970
Speaker 5: or something like that.

560
00:32:36,130 --> 00:32:39,090
Speaker 1: Over the past three years, I've sought out the tellers,

561
00:32:39,250 --> 00:32:42,370
Speaker 1: the customers, and even the policemen who almost shot X,

562
00:32:42,770 --> 00:32:46,249
Speaker 1: all in service to ex finding forgiveness, but there was

563
00:32:46,290 --> 00:32:49,170
Speaker 1: always one person's forgiveness that he discounted.

564
00:32:49,970 --> 00:32:52,850
Speaker 5: I was a kid, you know, my head wasn't on straight,

565
00:32:53,050 --> 00:32:55,209
Speaker 5: and I was dealing with a lot of pain, and

566
00:32:55,450 --> 00:32:57,090
Speaker 5: I felt like that's what I needed to do to

567
00:32:57,090 --> 00:33:00,770
Speaker 5: get out of that pain. And I think the closure

568
00:33:00,850 --> 00:33:03,330
Speaker 5: I've come to realize that needs to happen here is

569
00:33:03,410 --> 00:33:06,850
Speaker 5: my own. That's the little mini journey I went on

570
00:33:07,170 --> 00:33:10,610
Speaker 5: was like I don't have to keep lying or hiding

571
00:33:10,690 --> 00:33:14,769
Speaker 5: or running from this or pretending like this was a

572
00:33:14,810 --> 00:33:15,610
Speaker 5: different person.

573
00:33:20,770 --> 00:33:22,890
Speaker 1: When X first came to me, he was trying to

574
00:33:22,890 --> 00:33:26,090
Speaker 1: figure out how to tell his story. But in everything

575
00:33:26,130 --> 00:33:30,250
Speaker 1: from witness accounts to confessions, from Great Expectations to Moby

576
00:33:30,330 --> 00:33:33,729
Speaker 1: Dick stories begin by asserting who the person telling the

577
00:33:33,770 --> 00:33:37,410
Speaker 1: story is. How can you tell your story if you

578
00:33:37,450 --> 00:33:38,570
Speaker 1: can't even say your name?

579
00:33:39,370 --> 00:33:42,809
Speaker 5: You know, I'm going through the trouble of like asking

580
00:33:42,850 --> 00:33:45,009
Speaker 5: you not to call me by my name and worrying

581
00:33:45,010 --> 00:33:46,330
Speaker 5: about people finding out.

582
00:33:46,530 --> 00:33:48,130
Speaker 1: But it's me.

583
00:33:48,570 --> 00:33:51,289
Speaker 5: It's my story, and I'm not proud of it. But

584
00:33:51,330 --> 00:33:56,410
Speaker 5: I'm also not trying to run away from it. I've

585
00:33:56,410 --> 00:33:57,370
Speaker 5: done it. For long enough.

586
00:33:58,330 --> 00:34:01,529
Speaker 1: That's really wonderful to hear you say that. And I

587
00:34:01,610 --> 00:34:05,450
Speaker 1: don't think it's such a mini journey, you know. Yeah,

588
00:34:07,570 --> 00:34:11,850
Speaker 1: So do you think all that being said, you think

589
00:34:11,890 --> 00:34:15,090
Speaker 1: you're you think you're okay with just coming out and

590
00:34:15,130 --> 00:34:15,529
Speaker 1: saying it.

591
00:34:22,250 --> 00:34:25,730
Speaker 5: My name is John Paul, and when I was fourteen

592
00:34:25,770 --> 00:34:29,970
Speaker 5: years old, I robbed a bank for forty thousand dollars.

593
00:34:34,410 --> 00:34:35,530
Speaker 1: How does that feel.

594
00:34:42,970 --> 00:34:46,850
Speaker 5: Like there's a lightness in it? I don't know that

595
00:34:46,850 --> 00:34:54,930
Speaker 5: I've ever said those exact words. I almost hesitate to

596
00:34:54,970 --> 00:34:57,210
Speaker 5: say it because it's like I said, I felt like

597
00:34:57,250 --> 00:34:59,890
Speaker 5: I wasn't allowed to not wallow in shame, but I

598
00:34:59,930 --> 00:35:01,170
Speaker 5: feel relieved.

599
00:35:01,170 --> 00:35:06,330
Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, it's really John Paul. That's a very

600
00:35:06,410 --> 00:35:07,170
Speaker 1: nice thing to hear.

601
00:35:07,570 --> 00:35:07,890
Speaker 5: Thank you.

602
00:35:09,490 --> 00:35:10,210
Speaker 4: Yeah.

603
00:35:10,490 --> 00:35:13,489
Speaker 5: It's kind of surprising to me how I've just been

604
00:35:13,530 --> 00:35:18,090
Speaker 5: saying words right, Like I'm just talking, Like how could

605
00:35:18,170 --> 00:35:20,050
Speaker 5: words make that much of a difference.

606
00:35:27,650 --> 00:35:30,250
Speaker 1: Words allow us to tell the story of who we are,

607
00:35:31,210 --> 00:35:34,370
Speaker 1: and telling that story can feel like a burden, but

608
00:35:34,450 --> 00:35:36,970
Speaker 1: it can also help lay that burden to rest.

609
00:35:37,810 --> 00:35:40,610
Speaker 5: It feels like a new chapter in my life or

610
00:35:40,650 --> 00:35:43,930
Speaker 5: a new story. And I'm kind of allowing myself to

611
00:35:43,970 --> 00:35:44,930
Speaker 5: be excited about it.

612
00:36:28,690 --> 00:36:33,690
Speaker 1: Now that the furnitures returning.

613
00:36:32,690 --> 00:36:40,570
Speaker 5: To its goodwill home, now that the last month's rent

614
00:36:40,650 --> 00:36:45,250
Speaker 5: is scheming with the damage to poss take this moment

615
00:36:45,370 --> 00:36:46,250
Speaker 5: to dissolve.

616
00:36:48,850 --> 00:36:50,570
Speaker 7: If we message, if we.

617
00:36:50,610 --> 00:36:55,130
Speaker 1: Talk felt around from far to.

618
00:36:57,730 --> 00:37:00,450
Speaker 4: From things that accidentally talked.

619
00:37:04,770 --> 00:37:08,330
Speaker 1: This episode of Heavyweight was produced by supervising producer Stevie

620
00:37:08,410 --> 00:37:12,290
Speaker 1: Lane and me Jonathan Goldstein, along with Phoebe Flanagan. Our

621
00:37:12,370 --> 00:37:16,450
Speaker 1: senior producer is Khalila Holt. Editorial guidance from Emily Condon.

622
00:37:16,890 --> 00:37:20,810
Speaker 1: Special thanks to Sean Cole, Chris Neary, Ben nattf Haffrey, Lydia,

623
00:37:20,850 --> 00:37:25,930
Speaker 1: Jane Kott, Connie Williams, Katherine Reinhardt, and especially Moheiney mcgaucher.

624
00:37:26,450 --> 00:37:29,930
Speaker 1: Em Amonger mixed the episode with original music by Christine Fellows,

625
00:37:30,010 --> 00:37:33,610
Speaker 1: John K. Samson, and Bobby Lord. Additional scoring by Blue

626
00:37:33,610 --> 00:37:36,450
Speaker 1: Dot Sessions. Our theme song is by The Weaker Thans,

627
00:37:36,490 --> 00:37:40,570
Speaker 1: courtesy of Epitaph Records. Follow us on Instagram at Heavyweight

628
00:37:40,610 --> 00:37:44,210
Speaker 1: Podcast or email us at Heavyweight at Pushkin dot Fm.

629
00:37:44,690 --> 00:37:47,970
Speaker 1: We'll be back with a brand new episode in two weeks.

630
00:38:05,490 --> 00:38:12,730
Speaker 1: Luetta Chantier, Luette Jack Owen, Johante Plumeri Jackie Cohen wil

631
00:38:12,770 --> 00:38:15,450
Speaker 1: at Tete Jackie Cohen, while at Tete