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Speaker 2: Very happy to be joined this morning by a longtime
Speaker 2: friend of mine, additional MSNBC refugee here, Torre, who is
Speaker 2: doing all kinds of cool stuff.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 2: You are blowing up on TikTok, been covering the Diddy
Speaker 2: trial really closely, among other things. You've got a substack,
Speaker 2: You've got a new show, Truth Talks Live on YouTube
Speaker 2: that people should go ahead and check out. How are you,
Speaker 2: my friends, I'm good.
Speaker 4: I'm good.
Speaker 5: I'm upset about the situation that's going on in Gaza,
Speaker 5: and I've been doing a lot of CNN a lot
Speaker 5: of Abby Phillips show where you get arguing with the right.
Speaker 5: I don't usually talk to people from the right in
Speaker 5: my real life because usually they're I don't know, they're
Speaker 5: often in space. There was a segment that really bothered
Speaker 5: me about the rise of anti Semitism in America, and
Speaker 5: I think that that is real. Although we can talk
Speaker 5: about that because I saw another segment that talked about
Speaker 5: how the ADL is inflating those numbers.
Speaker 4: But I think that.
Speaker 5: Israel is making the world less safe for American Jews
Speaker 5: by destroying the image of Israel through this genocide.
Speaker 2: Well, and I insisting that Israel and Judaism are one
Speaker 2: and the same by erasing any sort of you know,
Speaker 2: anti Zionist Jewish voices who have been incredibly influential and
Speaker 2: instrumental in the pro Palestine, you know, protest movement.
Speaker 4: Here, we have.
Speaker 5: Definitely seen more Jewish people in the pro Palestine movement
Speaker 5: over the last year, year and a half, you know.
Speaker 5: And it's also it's really discussing the way that a
Speaker 5: lot of folks who are on that side try to
Speaker 5: reduce Palestinian people, many of whom are fifty percent of
Speaker 5: that population are children, but they want to talk about
Speaker 5: them as if they are all hamas and they are
Speaker 5: all terrorists. And the dehumanization that you mentioned last segment
Speaker 5: is absolutely real, as if they are not real people
Speaker 5: and we can kill them. They are all animals, even
Speaker 5: if they are young, even if they are children. And
Speaker 5: I think the world sees the way that Israel is
Speaker 5: approaching Palestine, and many people are responding in an appropriate way.
Speaker 5: The encampments, the college protests have been a very appropriate
Speaker 5: and aggressive way to protest. Now we've also seen horrific,
Speaker 5: violent anti semitism that is obviously not appropriate. But when
Speaker 5: a country sets its image on fire in the world,
Speaker 5: what do you think is going to happen?
Speaker 2: Well, you know it's funny. Ken Klebnstein actually got the
Speaker 2: Intel report on the guy here who murdered the two
Speaker 2: Israeli embassy officials, and in it they say, in this
Speaker 2: report they don't talk about anti Semitism, and they talk
Speaker 2: He is motivated by the horrors that he's seeing unfolding
Speaker 2: in Gaza and the fact that he feels there is
Speaker 2: no democratic way in order to effectuate change. And so
Speaker 2: it's important to understand that even while obviously saying this
Speaker 2: violence against civilians is exactly the reason why we're opposed
Speaker 2: to the genocide occurring in Palestine and Gaza. But you know,
Speaker 2: that is the administration's assessment that this was not actually
Speaker 2: quote unquote anti Semitism, that this is a direct result
Speaker 2: of the horrors that we are all watching in our
Speaker 2: feeds every day. So appreciate you offering your perspective editory,
Speaker 2: especially since you are on CNN all the time and
Speaker 2: sort of inside these rooms. Still also wanted to get
Speaker 2: your wanted to get your thoughts today on a couple things.
Speaker 2: So we're going to talk about the Diddy trial, which
Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to, but I also wanted to get
Speaker 2: your thoughts and Ryan's thoughts on this effort among Democrats
Speaker 2: to figure out what's going on with the men.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: There's this big, significant conversation I think is important about
Speaker 2: the way that men and young men in particular have
Speaker 2: been moving to the right, you know, coming on the
Speaker 2: heels of a Bernie Sanders coalition that was smeared as
Speaker 2: being too male and too young and whatever. And then
Speaker 2: once they you know, trashed that part of the coalition,
Speaker 2: it started to shift away from them. So there's this
Speaker 2: evert you know, official multimillion dollar effort to talk to
Speaker 2: the men and figure out what's going on. And let's
Speaker 2: go ahead and start with the ladies of the view
Speaker 2: and Joy Behart in particular and her take on this
Speaker 2: this study and what the Democratic Party should really be
Speaker 2: doing in terms of men.
Speaker 6: Look, I don't know that you learn how to talk
Speaker 6: to men by being in a conference center at a
Speaker 6: New York hotel up with strategists and experts in suits.
Speaker 6: I think people need to go into the barrios and
Speaker 6: the neighborhoods and the barbershops and the and the.
Speaker 4: Places where real people are.
Speaker 6: And I think one of the problems that the Democrats
Speaker 6: have several of them, but one of the things is
Speaker 6: that they keep talking about how weak their brand is
Speaker 6: and how bad their team is. I never met a man,
Speaker 6: I never met a woman. I never met a human
Speaker 6: who wants to join a losing team. So maybe start
Speaker 6: projecting some you know.
Speaker 4: Winning attitude.
Speaker 7: And I think I think it's a waste of money.
Speaker 6: Maybe these guys should spend their money on teaching men
Speaker 6: to not be such sexist.
Speaker 2: Maybe that's the stats don't bear that out. Now that
Speaker 2: thank you now be seen the eleven.
Speaker 8: Years old, Donald Trump performed better with than the previous
Speaker 8: several Republicans with most every people group. He did better
Speaker 8: with black men, better with Latino men, better with white
Speaker 8: men and white women. Like, it's just a fact that
Speaker 8: he has tapped into something and what I think that
Speaker 8: it was running against a woman, but I'm saying that
Speaker 8: men showed up more for him. Oh so you think
Speaker 8: that Democrats who were with Biden in twenty twenty left
Speaker 8: to be with Trump because they're sexist.
Speaker 7: I don't know the reason, but it's very much so, Tore.
Speaker 2: Do we need Democrats to spend more time lecturing men
Speaker 2: about how they're to sexist? Is that going to bring
Speaker 2: them back into the party fold?
Speaker 9: No?
Speaker 5: I mean, apparently they feel like we have been lecturing
Speaker 5: them and telling them that they are too masculine, they
Speaker 5: are too toxic, they are too disgusting. I understand what
Speaker 5: these young guys are saying that the democratic world, not
Speaker 5: necessarily just the politicians, but all the people around them
Speaker 5: who are liberal in public or progressive in public, are
Speaker 5: making them feel like being masculine is inherently a bad thing,
Speaker 5: and like being Republican means being strong and being Democrat
Speaker 5: means being weak, and we've been dealing with that, I
Speaker 5: think stereotyped for a long time, right, I mean, the
Speaker 5: Democrat has been the Democrats have been the mommy party
Speaker 5: for a long time, and the Republicans have been the
Speaker 5: tough on foreign policy daddy party. You know, we have
Speaker 5: all these sneaky conservative outlets.
Speaker 6: Now.
Speaker 5: Joe Rogan is not overtly conservative, but he keeps giving
Speaker 5: you conservative ideas right aiden ross these others who are
Speaker 5: not overtly conservative. There's definitely an image problem among men
Speaker 5: and Democrats who used to be we used to be
Speaker 5: the party of unions, so clearly working guys thought the
Speaker 5: Dems were they are for them at one point in
Speaker 5: our lifetimes. I'm not quite sure quite how you get
Speaker 5: back to that. When we love the intellectual dem right,
Speaker 5: I mean thinking about like Barack from Harvard and Bill
Speaker 5: for you know the way I mean, we love the intellectuals,
Speaker 5: even Bernie as much we love him, he's an intellectual. Like,
Speaker 5: there's got to be a different way of communicating with people.
Speaker 10: I don't know, although Bernie worked like Bernie had the
Speaker 10: young guys across the you know, across you know the
Speaker 10: board that clip though, to me was so revealing that
Speaker 10: that view clip. First of all, Annonavarro is kind of
Speaker 10: misunderstanding what's going on here. It's like she's like, you're
Speaker 10: not gonna, you know, win over men in luxury hotels. No,
Speaker 10: they're not going to luxury hotels to win over men. Uh,
Speaker 10: they're going to luxury hotels to shake down rich people
Speaker 10: for a bunch of money, and then they're going to
Speaker 10: use that money to like, you know, do content and
Speaker 10: stuff that tries to reach what the barbershop and the
Speaker 10: and the borrows and all that like that, that's that's
Speaker 10: how that pipeline works. But the joy behar one was
Speaker 10: even more revealing, like she's like, why would you do
Speaker 10: this because men suck?
Speaker 2: It made sympathetic to this study?
Speaker 11: Actually yes, it's like yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5: It definitely seemed like she had not prepared for the segment,
Speaker 5: because if she had read the notes about the studies,
Speaker 5: she would know you're doing the exact opposite of what
Speaker 5: devs need to.
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know the audience ate it up, which
Speaker 2: was the other revealing part of what happened there. Let's
Speaker 2: go and put go ahead and put D two up
Speaker 2: on the screen just so we can see a little
Speaker 2: bit of what the study is revealing so far. So
Speaker 2: the focus groups found young men feel there in crisis,
Speaker 2: stressed a shame, and confused over what it means to
Speaker 2: be a man. In twenty twenty five, they vented about
Speaker 2: conflicting cultural messages of masculinity that put them in a
Speaker 2: no win situation around the meaning of a man. According
Speaker 2: to the SAM what is it? What does SAM stand for? Again?
Speaker 10: Speaking speaking about men's about that?
Speaker 2: Put the next piece up on the screen. This speaks
Speaker 2: to some of what, you know, what we've been saying
Speaker 2: for a while. They describe how the COVID pandemic left
Speaker 2: them isolated, socially disconnected. They said they now feel overwhelmed
Speaker 2: by economic anxiety, making traditional milestones like buying a home
Speaker 2: or saving for kids college feel impossible. One analysis of
Speaker 2: the research said, and so and we've got I think
Speaker 2: one more quote we can put up here too. Democrats
Speaker 2: are seen as weak, you were saying, some of this
Speaker 2: tore whereas Republicans are seen as strong. According to Alice
Speaker 2: Hoag who's involved with this, young men also being invisible
Speaker 2: to the Democratic coalition. And so you've got this weak problem.
Speaker 2: And then you've got this, I don't think they care
Speaker 2: about me problem, and I think the combination is kind
Speaker 2: of a killer. And to be honest with you, I
Speaker 2: don't really disagree with any of that. I think the
Speaker 2: part that's a little like lol is that you needed
Speaker 2: to pay millions of dollars to come to these conclusions,
Speaker 2: which you know, to me are fairly straightforward and obvious.
Speaker 2: That when the traditional definition of what it means to
Speaker 2: be a man is to be a provider, you know,
Speaker 2: to be able to have the job and make the
Speaker 2: money and support the family and support the wife and
Speaker 2: the kids in the house of the picket fence and whatever.
Speaker 2: And over decades we've stripped that ability away. That that
Speaker 2: is going to create some you know, some upset, some dislocation,
Speaker 2: and some searching for answers.
Speaker 5: It does, it also represents the fundamental problem the Democratic
Speaker 5: Party has right now and then for so long we
Speaker 5: have been about uplifting people who are not traditionally at
Speaker 5: the table, right, black, brown, female working class through unions.
Speaker 5: That's healthcare, right, that's what we you know, we're about
Speaker 5: affirmative action. We're about lifting up the working class, right,
Speaker 5: and so that means we are not here for the
Speaker 5: people in power. And I remember, I think it's like
Speaker 5: fifteen years ago now, Harvard did a study that said
Speaker 5: white people see race as a zero sum game that
Speaker 5: they are losing, which is just the notion of the
Speaker 5: people in power. When we start to try to add
Speaker 5: some equity, they feel like they are losing. They are
Speaker 5: the victims, they are losing something in society. And here
Speaker 5: we are, again, straight white men as Democrats try to say, hey,
Speaker 5: can we also give some power and some piece and
Speaker 5: some justice to trans people, gay people, women, black and
Speaker 5: brown people.
Speaker 4: And they're like, oh my god, you're taking away all
Speaker 4: my rights. We are literally not, But that's how you feel.
Speaker 10: I think it's a question of whether or not there's
Speaker 10: a play a welcome place in the coalition for an
Speaker 10: were white guys, And you know, I grew up a
Speaker 10: poor white guy, and in the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties,
Speaker 10: the place for those people and the place where I
Speaker 10: would feel at home was within the Democratic Party. There
Speaker 10: wasn't any question like the Republicans were the party of Reagan,
Speaker 10: the party of George H. W.
Speaker 11: Bush. They were the party for.
Speaker 2: Rich country club.
Speaker 11: Yeah.
Speaker 10: Now I'm an upper middle class white guy, and the
Speaker 10: Democrats are still the party you know that where you're
Speaker 10: you know, a white upper middle class guy is going
Speaker 10: to be well welcomed in welcome also in the Republican Party.
Speaker 10: White middle class guys there, I mean upper middle class guys, they're.
Speaker 11: Welcome every everywhere, right, well, welcome everywhere.
Speaker 10: But if you're a poor white guy, now, like, it
Speaker 10: doesn't it does not feel like the Democratic Party kind
Speaker 10: of wants you in there. And Joy Behar is saying, like,
Speaker 10: right there, and I don't think it's just white either anymore.
Speaker 10: Democratic Party, Joey bayhar men or sexist, like stop being
Speaker 10: so sexist, Like do we really want these men in
Speaker 10: here who are going to be sex.
Speaker 4: We're going to need some of them if we're going
Speaker 4: to win an.
Speaker 10: Election, Yes, exactly. And so I think this uproar about
Speaker 10: this study. I think it's worth unpacking where it comes from,
Speaker 10: because if you think about it, it's of course it's
Speaker 10: the Republicans. When they were losing with women, they went
Speaker 10: out and studied women, tried to figure out how to
Speaker 10: win them back.
Speaker 11: And that was comical. But what was comical about.
Speaker 10: It was not that they were trying to win them back,
Speaker 10: but it was that they had to study them in
Speaker 10: the first place, that they had gone so far around
Speaker 10: the bend that they had lost women so badly that
Speaker 10: they needed to hire people to explain to how to
Speaker 10: talk to these mysterious creatures. And so now the Democrats
Speaker 10: are stuck in the exact same place. So it's obvious
Speaker 10: they do need to do this. And apparently the only
Speaker 10: way that democratic elites will listen to anything is if
Speaker 10: it comes through a multimillion dollar focus groups rather than
Speaker 10: just you know, like would be a preferable way of
Speaker 10: doing is just naturally attracting people into your coalition.
Speaker 2: But yeah, the other thing that drivesing you crazy ran
Speaker 2: about that too is like you did have an example
Speaker 2: with Bernie Sanders where it works so like, and that
Speaker 2: seems to me much better data and research than your
Speaker 2: sort of inorganic focus groups. You have a very recent
Speaker 2: example that was very successful with this group and did
Speaker 2: not require you to like abandon your principles or like,
Speaker 2: you know, become sexist. So go ahead to RAI No,
Speaker 2: I mean, I.
Speaker 4: Think, I mean obviously that's right.
Speaker 5: I think Dems are still speaking to young men and
Speaker 5: to most people in an intellectual, logical way. I will
Speaker 5: help you with this policy, this program that you should
Speaker 5: intellectually understand is going to be beneficial for you. And
Speaker 5: then Republicans Trump does this even better. But most Republicans
Speaker 5: come with an emotional thing that grabs you, you know,
Speaker 5: and makes you feel like, yes, this is a team
Speaker 5: that gets me that, that is a thing that bothers
Speaker 5: me that And they understand thosetional triggers much better than
Speaker 5: the Democratic Party does.
Speaker 10: And I wanted to underline one of the things that
Speaker 10: was in that political article, which is their use of
Speaker 10: the term economic anxiety. So the people who did these
Speaker 10: focused groups and did these studies, you said, you know,
Speaker 10: we now understand that men have genuine economic anxiety about
Speaker 10: their place in the world. In twenty fifteen, if you remember,
Speaker 10: if you ever used the term economic anxiety, you would
Speaker 10: get piled on on Twitter and say stop talking about
Speaker 10: economic anxiety when you're not using the terms that you
Speaker 10: really mean, which is these are people who are racist
Speaker 10: and sexist. Yes, and so it's belated, but ten years
Speaker 10: later they're like, Okay, they actually are feeling economic anxiety and.
Speaker 5: That yes, there is genuine economic anxiety because the economy
Speaker 5: does not allow people in their twenties to reach the
Speaker 5: benchmarks that they did when the previous generations. Yeah, fine,
Speaker 5: but they are also being racist. They are also being
Speaker 5: white peop are. They are also in love with white
Speaker 5: privilege and seeing it seep away.
Speaker 4: So both those things.
Speaker 2: But sorry, how do you then grapple with that? You
Speaker 2: have not just white men moving into the Trump coalition,
Speaker 2: but you have black and brown men moving into the
Speaker 2: Trump coalition. And I mean, I'll tell you my view
Speaker 2: is when you have these heightened levels of economic anxiety
Speaker 2: and people feeling like they don't know how they're going
Speaker 2: to find their place, they don't know how they're going
Speaker 2: to achieve the things that their father and grandfather were
Speaker 2: able to achieve, that opens them up for you know,
Speaker 2: the Trumpian explanations, the far right explanations of scapegoating this
Speaker 2: group and that group words trand people are immigrants or
Speaker 2: college educated women or whoever the villain of the day
Speaker 2: happens to be. And so to me, I don't think
Speaker 2: you could ever truly disentangle those two things, because I
Speaker 2: think they are connected, and I think there is a
Speaker 2: relationship there.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, you.
Speaker 5: Know, I think that the black movement there is perhaps
Speaker 5: less significant than we've been talking about.
Speaker 4: It was not a gigantic coalition.
Speaker 5: He was not statistically way out of line with what
Speaker 5: Republicans have gotten. I think some black men responded to
Speaker 5: some of the same things that white men responded to,
Speaker 5: as far as masculinity, as as far as misogyny against Kamala,
Speaker 5: as far as the sense that I clearly understand what
Speaker 5: this candidate wants, and I don't understand clearly what that
Speaker 5: candidate wants, So some of them may have come to
Speaker 5: it with you know, that sort of math. I think
Speaker 5: that when we think about Latino voters, we have wrongly
Speaker 5: thought that they would think of themselves politically as people
Speaker 5: of color, and many of them do not, and they
Speaker 5: vote as if they were white people, and we are
Speaker 5: as dams. We are like thrown off by, like, oh,
Speaker 5: we thought this would become our coalition, and they're like, no,
Speaker 5: we want to assimilate, we want a big money. Even
Speaker 5: if he says anti Hispanic things, we are still rolling
Speaker 5: with him. It's it's a tricky position for the Democratic Party.
Speaker 5: We see right as unpopular as Trump is, the Democrats.
Speaker 4: Are even less popular.
Speaker 5: Yea, And I'm not even sure who is the person
Speaker 5: who will be the leader to get us out of this.
Speaker 5: We both love Bernie, but we need somebody. I assume
Speaker 5: he's too old to actually be the savior himself.
Speaker 10: Right, Yeah, So the question then I have is things
Speaker 10: are getting objectively worse for men across the board in America.
Speaker 10: Things are getting objectively worse for women across the board
Speaker 10: in America. This is this is true. Things are getting
Speaker 10: probably relatively a little worse for men than for women
Speaker 10: to buy all the all those standards, but they're getting
Speaker 10: worse for everybody. So then what is the acceptable way
Speaker 10: for men to express that anxiety politically? They tried in
Speaker 10: twenty fifteen and sixteen with Bernie Sanders, and we're told
Speaker 10: that that's not an acceptable way of doing it because
Speaker 10: you're actually just racist and sexist and you're afraid of
Speaker 10: having a Hillary Clinton as the nominee. Obviously it's not
Speaker 10: acceptable to do with Trump. It's deplorable, and uh, you
Speaker 10: know he's he's racist and sexist, so you can't you know,
Speaker 10: express it through him either. So then how like, what
Speaker 10: what vehicle do men have to say I think the
Speaker 10: world is getting worse and I want it to change
Speaker 10: without being dumped on it's a great question.
Speaker 4: Do you do you really not understand the question? Are
Speaker 4: you just throwing me a question?
Speaker 11: Yeah? What's what?
Speaker 10: What's how can they what is an acceptable way for
Speaker 10: I think who feels that way.
Speaker 11: To express themselves?
Speaker 5: I think with Trump the message has been quite muddy
Speaker 5: with racism, and the notion that you are not getting
Speaker 5: what you deserve.
Speaker 4: Is wrapped up in racism.
Speaker 5: I would love to hear a genuine conversation with a
Speaker 5: politician who I don't believe is racist, who is not
Speaker 5: playing on white fragility and white victimhood to make the
Speaker 5: case of like, I can do better for you economically.
Speaker 5: We haven't yet seen that we've come into this moment
Speaker 5: where we have this economic crisis and we have this
Speaker 5: population crisis because a lot of white people are afraid
Speaker 5: that they are about to become the minority versus people
Speaker 5: of color in this country, and so those two things
Speaker 5: and globalization are happening at the same time. If we
Speaker 5: could have just a conversation about the economy without it
Speaker 5: being wrapped up in racism, I would welcome that conversation.
Speaker 5: But I think that the racism has been cloaked in
Speaker 5: the economic argument. I think quite I mean, we understand
Speaker 5: quite often these people are blaming immigrants for things that
Speaker 5: are actually economic problems that are actually not their issue. Right,
Speaker 5: They are not bringing crime, they're not taking away American jobs,
Speaker 5: so they are an avatar for something that's not happening.
Speaker 5: So that's not that that's not a quality argument for men.
Speaker 5: So I would want to have the just let's start
Speaker 5: to have the conversation without tiling in the racism, because
Speaker 5: quite often it is just a way of hiding the racism.
Speaker 2: Last thing I was saying then we'll move to Diddy
Speaker 2: is I think you were onto something And I've been
Speaker 2: thinking about this recently when you were tired, and I
Speaker 2: think this is somewhere with the left needs to work on.
Speaker 2: Speaking as a leftist when you say, yes, it's about
Speaker 2: the material concerns. But the other thing that the right
Speaker 2: has done is provided this sort of like hero story
Speaker 2: and like a sense of belong and like there's more
Speaker 2: than just we're going to you know, check the box
Speaker 2: that you're going to get healthcare and you're going to
Speaker 2: get minimum wage. Yes, those things are good. I think
Speaker 2: that would be a better, certainly a better political and
Speaker 2: policy path to go on et cetera. But I think
Speaker 2: part of the appeal of Bernie movement wasn't just those
Speaker 2: material concerns being addressed. There was a sense of like belonging.
Speaker 2: We're on a team together and we're doing a thing,
Speaker 2: and here's our goal and here's our mission, and we're
Speaker 2: in this together. And you know, I think to Ryan's question,
Speaker 2: like right now and what the Democratic Party is like
Speaker 2: having these struggle sessions about is figuring out how to like, ultimately,
Speaker 2: they need to figure out you need an organic movement,
Speaker 2: You need a program that people believe in. You need
Speaker 2: a leader that's charismatic that gets people buy and into
Speaker 2: that program. You know, that's not just about then, but
Speaker 2: that's about everybody succeeding and it not being some zero
Speaker 2: sum game. And you know, to circle back to joy Bay,
Speaker 2: are you probably not going to get there by being
Speaker 2: like you're bad? And here's why.
Speaker 5: There's some psychosocial scholars who talk about you know, left
Speaker 5: and right, conservative and liberal, progressive, And one of the
Speaker 5: things that keeps coming up is that conservatives and.
Speaker 4: The right they like hierarchy.
Speaker 5: They understand he is at the top and we are below.
Speaker 4: And I think.
Speaker 5: Dems innately understand a more flattened.
Speaker 4: Society sort of situation.
Speaker 5: Where like, you know, we're a group without a strong hierarchy,
Speaker 5: and I think young men respond to that this sort
Speaker 5: of notion of like, here's this big, strong, tough guy
Speaker 5: who's going to be our leader, and they're like, yeah.
Speaker 4: That's great.
Speaker 5: And somebody who's like, you know, dem who's like, you know,
Speaker 5: let's work together and have a coalition and like figure
Speaker 5: things out together.
Speaker 4: It's a little too kumbaya for them.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 10: I think an interesting flip of that is Bernie's slogan
Speaker 10: of not me us, and that appeals to that flat
Speaker 10: lateral element. But he's also a guy who's been saying
Speaker 10: the same stuff for thirty forty fifty years, and so
Speaker 10: people believed, Okay, it's yes, not me us, but also
Speaker 10: it's him because he has integrity and we're going to
Speaker 10: follow him.
Speaker 11: But it's all of us doing it together.
Speaker 10: And I think, Torri, I'm curious for your Tori, I'm
Speaker 10: cures for your take on this. I think the answer
Speaker 10: would be if democrats and the reason it's not going
Speaker 10: to come out of these luxury hotels, uh, if democrats
Speaker 10: fight powerful corporate and oligarch interests there's a masculine energy
Speaker 10: to that, like it's and what Bernie Sanders, despite not
Speaker 10: being you know, a man's man like he was, he
Speaker 10: was fighting against the one percent and the millionaires and
Speaker 10: the billionaires and.
Speaker 2: So and casting you in a role as hero, what
Speaker 2: you're doing for others?
Speaker 10: Yeah, right, we're going to all collectively fight for a
Speaker 10: better world. And so we're gonna it's not the toxic
Speaker 10: masculinity it's going to be but it, but it is
Speaker 10: going to be a masculine aggressive effort against the people
Speaker 10: who are robby.
Speaker 4: That would be amazing. Uh, the corporate Democratic Party.
Speaker 10: Right, exactly best, exactly, That's why I'd be like, they
Speaker 10: have to do just a care. They just do a care.
Speaker 10: We're going to take care of everybody. But we're not
Speaker 10: gonna fight anybody because and it's not because they're mommy's.
Speaker 10: It's because they're sellouts and they're bought off.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's basically what Welcome Fest is all because like,
Speaker 2: let's make sure that challenging corporate powers was actually.
Speaker 11: A party of mom's. Like moms fight hard, that's true,
Speaker 11: they fight.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but mom takes care of you, mom nurtures you.
Speaker 5: It's not sexy right, dad goes out to fight and
Speaker 5: these are obviously ancient stereotypes, but like that's is the
Speaker 5: daddy party will attack the barbarians.
Speaker 10: In Iran, but if a mom'sammy party will, like if
Speaker 10: the family.
Speaker 2: Felt them, the Mama bear, the Sarah Palin Mama bear trope.
Speaker 2: Let's move on to what's going on with with Diddy here,
Speaker 2: because you've been you know, blown up on TikTok talking
Speaker 2: about this trial. What are we now? Are two weeks in?
Speaker 2: Three weeks in?
Speaker 4: This is the end of the third week.
Speaker 2: Okay, So let's put this Business Insider tear sheet up
Speaker 2: on the screen that had some of the key details here.
Speaker 2: And you know, I think most people be familiar with
Speaker 2: the horrific hotel video of Cassie being beaten and dragged
Speaker 2: by Diddy, and this is they played this pretty early
Speaker 2: in the trial to sort of set the stage that
Speaker 2: the prosecution did, and it is also critical to their
Speaker 2: case about Hey, this was an act that was taking
Speaker 2: place in the context of sex trafficking, which is one
Speaker 2: of the charges here. So just take us through sort
Speaker 2: of the broad strokes of where we are right now.
Speaker 5: We have heard the government is still putting on their case.
Speaker 5: They have produced many many witnesses who have said, did
Speaker 5: he was violent? Did he was controlling? Did he was
Speaker 5: using his organization to control Cassie. We've heard so many
Speaker 5: insane stories. Just yesterday, this woman who's a friend of
Speaker 5: Cassie's out on the stand and talked about did he
Speaker 5: dangling her over a seventeenth story balcony and then dropping
Speaker 5: her onto the furniture of the balcony. The one hundred
Speaker 5: thousand dollars thing you mentioned is an incredible moment because
Speaker 5: it brings in multiple predicate crimes that the government needs
Speaker 5: to prove in order to prove racketeering. Long stories or
Speaker 5: did he beat up Cassie? It was videotaped. His chief
Speaker 5: of staff and did he himself? Both went to the
Speaker 5: hotel personally multiple times saying we need that tape. Finally
Speaker 5: the hotel. The hotel first said we can't give it
Speaker 5: to you, we don't have access to that room. And
Speaker 5: then they kept pressing the issue and the guy's boss says, okay,
Speaker 5: give us fifty K.
Speaker 4: And I'm I didn't know.
Speaker 5: That this sort of a bribe would happen that easily, Like, well,
Speaker 5: if you just pony up fifty k, then you can
Speaker 5: get whatever security it takes you want. So Diddy shows
Speaker 5: up with cash and a money counter. They give him
Speaker 5: the tape and then he counts out one hundred thousand,
Speaker 5: even though the fee was only fifty thousand, and they're like,
Speaker 5: what this is for the other guys. So he's proactively
Speaker 5: bribing the other people in the situation. So this is
Speaker 5: multiple bribes. This is obstruction of justice, this is witness tampering.
Speaker 5: That's three separate predicate crimes.
Speaker 4: In one story.
Speaker 5: He's also committed kidnapping, which is also that extortion. We
Speaker 5: just saw that extortion proved because the CFO a Bad
Speaker 5: Boy came up for very briefly and said, yes, we
Speaker 5: did receive twenty thousand dollars from Cassie's father, which happened
Speaker 5: after Puffy said I'm mad at you and I'm gonna
Speaker 5: put out this sex tape if you don't give me
Speaker 5: twenty k. And so they took out a home equity
Speaker 5: load so that they could access twenty k and sent
Speaker 5: it to Ditty.
Speaker 4: But the other part of that.
Speaker 5: Story that I noticed she was a recording artist at
Speaker 5: Bad Boy for at least four years when the twenty
Speaker 5: thousand dollars. Extortion request was made and her mom takes
Speaker 5: out a home equity loan. She was not liquid enough
Speaker 5: to come up with twenty thousand dollars in an absolute emergency.
Speaker 5: As a recording clearly she's kept with no money. So
Speaker 5: this is how he's coercing her, because you get as
Speaker 5: a recording artist, you're gonna get money when your album
Speaker 5: comes out, right, Like generally they give you an advance
Speaker 5: to go make the album, and then when you come
Speaker 5: back for the next album, they give you another check.
Speaker 5: So if you're not putting out albums and you're not touring,
Speaker 5: you're not getting any money. So he's keeping her in
Speaker 5: this economic prison.
Speaker 10: It sounds like you don't need the freak Offs to
Speaker 10: make the case here, like that, is that right? It's
Speaker 10: because a lot of this stuff.
Speaker 5: The freak off is the center of the whole thing.
Speaker 5: The government's case is that the whole operation is to
Speaker 5: get the freak Offs to happen, and to facilitate them,
Speaker 5: to make them happen, to control Cassie so she stays
Speaker 5: in the organization, and then to clean up after them,
Speaker 5: like in this situation when we needed to get that
Speaker 5: tape Okay, the chief of staff and Diddy and Diddy's
Speaker 5: corporate money are getting that back for him. I think
Speaker 5: we started with Cassie, and yesterday the government put ten
Speaker 5: sex tapes, including Cassie, into evidence under seal, And I
Speaker 5: think that what they're doing is they're preparing for the
Speaker 5: end of their case to be them showing these videos
Speaker 5: to the jury. The public and the gallery will not
Speaker 5: see them, but the jury will see them, I think,
Speaker 5: and that I assume will be quite devastating for the defense.
Speaker 2: Because my understanding is that, I mean, they have him
Speaker 2: dead to rights on all kinds of I mean, beat
Speaker 2: the show on her on multiple occasions. They've got all
Speaker 2: kinds of witnesses. They have another woman who came forward
Speaker 2: and said he raped me too. You have a kid
Speaker 2: cutting incident where he you know, reportedly like bombed his
Speaker 2: car out of jealousy and was in his house and
Speaker 2: you know, messing with his the Christmas presence that he
Speaker 2: had wrapped up to give his family, like just total insane,
Speaker 2: unhinged violent behavior. My understanding of what did hey side
Speaker 2: is prepared to argue is basically like that's domestic violence,
Speaker 2: that's not sex trafficking and so is that where they're headed.
Speaker 2: And is that why the the freak Offs which entailed,
Speaker 2: you know, bringing these male sex workers in and coercing
Speaker 2: Cassie and all of these things, Is that why that
Speaker 2: becomes so central?
Speaker 5: Well, yes, the freak Offs are the central sex trafficking
Speaker 5: act that all of this is built to construct. The
Speaker 5: kid cutting story is actually quite devastating for Diddy because
Speaker 5: arson is also a predicate offense that proves racketeering that
Speaker 5: you use to build toward a racketeering case.
Speaker 2: So there's a criminal enterprise, not just individual acts of violence,
Speaker 2: which is not what this case is fundamentally about, right.
Speaker 5: Right, And people keep going back to the notion of like, well,
Speaker 5: it's not a criminal enterprise like the Sopranos, which overtly
Speaker 5: tries to commit crime as its main job.
Speaker 11: Right.
Speaker 5: Lawyers have said to be well, the money's going the
Speaker 5: wrong way. They're not making any money from the crimes
Speaker 5: they're committing. Fine, But like the sex trafficking, Cassie is
Speaker 5: coerced and controlled by violence, by blackmail, I'll release the tape,
Speaker 5: by economic means, if you don't do what I say,
Speaker 5: I will not put out your album, And by violence
Speaker 5: that Diddy has bodyguards who act like soldiers who go
Speaker 5: and retrieve her from wherever she is if he doesn't
Speaker 5: know where she is in any given moment, So she's
Speaker 5: stuck in this world. She tells one of his assistants,
Speaker 5: I can't get out, so she's trapped in this thing
Speaker 5: and thus used for sex trafficking, or she is sex
Speaker 5: trafficked and you sexually week after week after week. She says,
Speaker 5: the freak offs are like two to three four days
Speaker 5: every week for like nine ten years. Like, I don't
Speaker 5: even know how a person could function in that way
Speaker 5: when you're having that much every week. And it's like
Speaker 5: she's like, we're not sleeping, we're just doing drugs and
Speaker 5: staying up for forty eight, you know, seventy two hours.
Speaker 2: And like, well, and there's a horrible scene where I
Speaker 2: believe they're on a plane and he's beating the shit
Speaker 2: on a cassie in the bedroom and there's all these
Speaker 2: people around, and she says, don't you all see what's happening,
Speaker 2: And one of the other you know, yeah, he was
Speaker 2: young at the time of twenty three years old or something.
Speaker 2: Assistance who was on the plane, who then goes on
Speaker 2: to you know, ultimately resign, but he watches all this happening,
Speaker 2: and nobody does a thing. Nobody does a thing to
Speaker 2: try to intervene and protect her from this ongoing violence
Speaker 2: and horrific abuse.
Speaker 5: It's not and you're not saying this, it's not domestic violence.
Speaker 5: Domestic violence is happening in this situation, but this is
Speaker 5: not a domestic violence case. He is using his power
Speaker 5: and his resources as a person with who controls some
Speaker 5: massive corporation to control her, and that is why he
Speaker 5: is able to have her sexually every week and to
Speaker 5: beat her up and she cannot leave. So already the
Speaker 5: ten album deal and the refusal to release any of
Speaker 5: your music already controls her. Plus I beat you up
Speaker 5: all the time. I pay for your apartments. So if
Speaker 5: you know I will extort you, I am blackmailing you,
Speaker 5: because early on he's like, if you don't do everything
Speaker 5: that I say, I will release these tapes.
Speaker 4: I mean.
Speaker 5: One of the most horrific moments in the trial to
Speaker 5: me was when no No Capricorn said that they were arguing.
Speaker 5: She was arguing with Ditty about why she didn't have
Speaker 5: a boyfriend, and Diddy summoned Cassie into the room and
Speaker 5: said sit down and she did, and stand up and
Speaker 5: she did. And then he said turn around and she did.
Speaker 5: And he said, y'all, bitches don't want to do that.
Speaker 5: That's why you don't have a man. But this is
Speaker 5: the level of control and humiliation that he's willing to
Speaker 5: dole out to her at any given moment.
Speaker 2: And Toy, what did they do in cross with Cassie
Speaker 2: to try to undermine her character? And you know, there's
Speaker 2: always this question of the perfect victim and the attempt
Speaker 2: to say, you know, she was into it and she
Speaker 2: liked it, and she was participating, and all of these
Speaker 2: sorts of what did they do on that front?
Speaker 5: I mean, you know, they they exposed the complexity of
Speaker 5: trying to adjudicate what happened in a domestic violence situation.
Speaker 5: They talked about Cassie doing a lot of drugs. They
Speaker 5: talked about Diddy being jealous and being bipolar, and they
Speaker 5: talked about Cassie suggesting that she actually liked it. And
Speaker 5: they showed text messages of her based saying I can't
Speaker 5: wait to freak off, lol, I'm always down for a
Speaker 5: freak off. Now she's consistently saying in general, ways, Yes,
Speaker 5: I want to do this.
Speaker 4: I'm so happy about doing this.
Speaker 5: She's not saying it in very specific ways, like if
Speaker 5: we really wanted to go have dinner, we would be
Speaker 5: talking about like, yes, I can't wait to eat the
Speaker 5: sushi or whatever it is.
Speaker 4: She's not discussing it like that, but you.
Speaker 5: Can take it like does he know that she doesn't
Speaker 5: want to do this, because when he asks her she
Speaker 5: says yes, but she also says if you keep if
Speaker 5: you read it critically, she'll be like, yes, but I
Speaker 5: want to spend alone time with you, or I can't
Speaker 5: wait to be with you. So she wants the alone time.
Speaker 5: She loves him, and I think that's another way that
Speaker 5: he's coercing and controlling her through love. And she keeps
Speaker 5: trying to get to the good part of their relationship,
Speaker 5: which is very typical in a DV situation that you
Speaker 5: think maybe we can erase or get away from the
Speaker 5: bad part and get back to the good part, which
Speaker 5: of course is impossible.
Speaker 10: And that's why I was asking about the centrality of
Speaker 10: the freak offs to the actual charges, because if a
Speaker 10: jury comes away and says, all right, look, we've got
Speaker 10: these text messages, we think they're weird, but she seemed
Speaker 10: to not object, so he didn't like, you know, physically
Speaker 10: force her to participate in them. Would there still be
Speaker 10: enough evidence of all these other crimes that even if
Speaker 10: a jury wants to be like, you know what, she
Speaker 10: participated in these willingly she's an adult, that's on her.
Speaker 10: But there's all these other obvious crimes. It's extortion and violence.
Speaker 10: And it's a great lawyer question. I haven't passed the
Speaker 10: bar yet. That's the one thing Kim Kardashian has over me.
Speaker 5: But like, here's the thing that the government has to
Speaker 5: prove that he conspired.
Speaker 4: It's a conspiracy to Rico, it's not a Rico charge.
Speaker 5: They have to prove that he conspired to commit two
Speaker 5: of this long list of offenses. And we have heard
Speaker 5: like eight or nine or ten of them in this trial.
Speaker 5: So when they go to sumasion, they're going to be like, look,
Speaker 5: we have proven this, we need two and there's already
Speaker 5: a ton and I you know, I named three in
Speaker 5: one story.
Speaker 4: There's two or three.
Speaker 5: There's three alone in the kid Cutty story because he
Speaker 5: kidnaps Capricorn within that. So I mean like there's multiple
Speaker 5: moments when the jury can be like, ooh, he's hitting
Speaker 5: a lot of the predicate offenses that prove that this
Speaker 5: is a criminal. Somebody made the point. People keep saying,
Speaker 5: how can it be a rico if there's only one person?
Speaker 5: Imagine a mobster with no lieutenants. He doesn't trust anybody else,
Speaker 5: so he just has underlings. But also, you can unwittingly
Speaker 5: participate in a conspiracy.
Speaker 4: You don't have to know.
Speaker 5: The person who sets up the hotel room for the
Speaker 5: freak offs does not have to know what's going to
Speaker 5: happen there? Did he does? So he's creating this whole situation,
Speaker 5: so he can't have the freak off. He's the planner
Speaker 5: that all they have to do. They don't have to
Speaker 5: prove that he did it. They just have to prove
Speaker 5: that he planned they planned it.
Speaker 10: One question I've had, and maybe this hasn't even come
Speaker 10: up in the trial, is it seemed like he knew
Speaker 10: these charges were coming and made some kind of efforts
Speaker 10: to get out of here, get out of dodge. How
Speaker 10: did Biddy end up with these charges taking so long
Speaker 10: to land? How was it that he didn't flee to
Speaker 10: somewhere that doesn't have extradition and has that come up
Speaker 10: at all as consciousness of guilt, like attempts that he
Speaker 10: he made.
Speaker 5: It's a great question they we haven't gotten to the
Speaker 5: defense's part of the trial. Perhaps they'll mention that I
Speaker 5: suspect that he was unable to leave the country. I
Speaker 5: suspect that that the once they raid you and and
Speaker 5: they make it clear that they're going to arrest you,
Speaker 5: like I believe that his attorneys were negotiating from a
Speaker 5: while ago and saying, please don't tell him in the custody. Now,
Speaker 5: we promise we won't leave, and like different assurances that
Speaker 5: they would not leave, you know, the whole when he
Speaker 5: was in prison on bail, he was saying, I'll sell
Speaker 5: my plane. I'm I'm proving to you. But like, look,
Speaker 5: when he is arrested, he has gone to New York City,
Speaker 5: where he does not live anymore, to effectuate the arrest,
Speaker 5: to be there to make it, you know, more more amenable.
Speaker 5: Let's say, now, the thing we have learned is that
Speaker 5: while he was in New York to allow himself to
Speaker 5: be arrested, he was also planning, it seems, on another
Speaker 5: freak off the hotel that after they picked him up
Speaker 5: and he was surprised that they picked him up when
Speaker 5: they did. They thought it was going to be the
Speaker 5: next day or something like that. They go, of course,
Speaker 5: they go up in the hotel room like there's a
Speaker 5: lot of baby oil and astro glide up in.
Speaker 2: Here, like and a bunch of like ecstasy or something
Speaker 2: too or.
Speaker 4: Do it again like right now like the road.
Speaker 2: Last question for you, tore So Trump has floated he
Speaker 2: might be open to a party, a party part in
Speaker 2: you never know for did he has You know, we've
Speaker 2: seen this play on so many times of suddenly, you know, uh,
Speaker 2: someone who's in trouble with the law, suddenly they love
Speaker 2: Donald Trump and they're the biggest Maga fan ever and
Speaker 2: this is the deep state coming to get them or whatever.
Speaker 2: Has he made any of those attempts to kind of
Speaker 2: appeal directly to Trump in order to you know, try
Speaker 2: to be able to get this this pardon.
Speaker 5: We don't know, obviously, did he cannot speak publicly right now.
Speaker 5: I saw a report that said that he was his group,
Speaker 5: his team, his allies were trying to back channel to Trump,
Speaker 5: and then of course Trump said he had not heard
Speaker 5: anything about that. But you know, we take all of
Speaker 5: Trump's words with a grain of salt. I imagine that
Speaker 5: it could happen. Trump is a total wild card. He
Speaker 5: pardoned NB A Young Boy and Kodak Black. Alice Johnson
Speaker 5: may decide, oh, Diddy would be another good one to
Speaker 5: bring in.
Speaker 4: Some black voters, right.
Speaker 5: I mean, it's this bizarre okie doke of like, you know,
Speaker 5: we're going to pardon specific individuals while we're taking away
Speaker 5: your rights over here. But that's that's the game we're playing.
Speaker 5: Trump's a total wild card in this. I don't expect
Speaker 5: him to look at it and say, oh, there were
Speaker 5: actual problems here, actual miscarriagters of justice. It'll be like,
Speaker 5: do you like Diddy or not?
Speaker 2: Right? And how much are you willing to pay me?
Speaker 2: And what do I think the political benefit will be?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I mean, like the release of Diddy at
Speaker 5: this point would be extremely dangerous for a lot of people.
Speaker 5: A lot of people would be looking over their shoulder
Speaker 5: for quite a long time, myself included. And I'm sure
Speaker 5: I'm not top ninety nine on his list, but if
Speaker 5: he's petty enough to be making a list, I'm probably
Speaker 5: in the top hundred. But Cassie has a lot to
Speaker 5: be afraid of. He knows who Nia is. She works
Speaker 5: for him, She sat in front of him in the courtroom,
Speaker 5: and so she has a lot to be afraid of.
Speaker 5: I mean like there's a lot of people who would
Speaker 5: be very afraid for.
Speaker 11: A long time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, Tori. Tell people where they can find
Speaker 2: you and follow your work.
Speaker 4: Yes, I'm on a show called truth Talks.
Speaker 5: You can find us on YouTube at truth talks dash Live.
Speaker 5: I got a subseac culture Fries where we talk about
Speaker 5: Diddy and other things.
Speaker 4: Follow me on TikTok and yeah, I was on Instagram too.
Speaker 10: I was just telling Torre I don't follow many people
Speaker 10: on TikTok. He's one of the few that I do.
Speaker 10: And so you're in my feet all the time. I
Speaker 10: love you, allow you too. Right, you're killing it on there.
Speaker 4: You got to get Crystal back.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been slack and I'll get back in the game.
Speaker 11: Guys, the chairman, she needs that content.
Speaker 2: Tory. Good to see you, my friend.
Speaker 11: Thanks guys, Love you, buddy.
Speaker 10: Alexandria Ocazio Cortes has now endorsed a zorhand Mom Donnie
Speaker 10: number one on her rank Choice ballot. This comes after
Speaker 10: last night you can put up that form. It comes
Speaker 10: after last night's New York City mayoral debate. This and
Speaker 10: endorsement by Bernie Sanders have been much watched. There have
Speaker 10: been a lot of pressure on AOC to get off
Speaker 10: the sidelines and get in and endorse Dorehand as he
Speaker 10: has been surging and closing to within about eight points
Speaker 10: of Andrew Cuomo in the latest race.
Speaker 11: Last night.
Speaker 10: There probably were not an enormous number of people watching
Speaker 10: this debate, so we can overstate its impact. But boy
Speaker 10: was it fascinating and it is The entire conversation becomes
Speaker 10: just much more interesting when you have a social democratic
Speaker 10: voice in their debating pushes everybody else to be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 10: I'm going to do this good thing. I'm going to
Speaker 10: do this good thing. I'll do this amazing thing as well.
Speaker 10: So let's let's start with Cuomo getting piled on. Should
Speaker 10: we do that first?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 10: Yeah, because Cuomo as the front runner, is just naturally
Speaker 10: going to get piled on.
Speaker 2: And there's plenty of ammunition to work with too.
Speaker 10: Right, And also he's Cuomo, so you can pile on
Speaker 10: them anyway. So you know, he's facing an investigation by
Speaker 10: Trump's DOJ which on the one hand, is a boon
Speaker 10: because it rallies Democrats in New York kind of behind him,
Speaker 10: because if you're against Trump, then you're objectively a good
Speaker 10: thing according to a lot of Democratic voters. On the
Speaker 10: other hand, he did a lot of Congress and he
Speaker 10: did cover up a bunch of deaths, so this was
Speaker 10: a needle to thread for his opponents. Let's let's roll
Speaker 10: f one here.
Speaker 7: The question is whether or not it's political and whether
Speaker 7: or not your congressional testimony was truthful. Were you, now
Speaker 7: that you've had time to reflect, involved in producing that
Speaker 7: report that under account of those nursing home deaths?
Speaker 3: Oh, there was no doubt that my administration produced the
Speaker 3: report and it did not undercount the deaths.
Speaker 7: Okay, but you're still saying you were not.
Speaker 3: It's very it's very clear that's the Trump line, the
Speaker 3: Maga line, right, because this was during his the Trump reelection. Okay,
Speaker 3: the New York reports always counted the number of deaths
Speaker 3: where they occurred in a nursing home or in a hospital. Okay,
Speaker 3: now that.
Speaker 7: Okay, we have to move on that. We have to
Speaker 7: give other people. We'll we'll, I'll have a lot more
Speaker 7: time on other subjects.
Speaker 9: All right, will you acknowledge the deaths? Okay, I mean
Speaker 9: it's a it's a very black and white. Did you
Speaker 9: apply to Congress or will you acknowledge the death Fifteen
Speaker 9: people died and he still won't answer.
Speaker 3: Your wells, all right, here, here's a chance to answer
Speaker 3: the question as Melissa presented it. Yes, no, I told
Speaker 3: Congress the truth. No, we did not undercount any deaths.
Speaker 3: When they are all counted, we're number thirty eight out
Speaker 3: of fifty, which I think shows that compared to what
Speaker 3: other states went through, we had it first and worst,
Speaker 3: and that only twelve states had a lower rate of death.
Speaker 3: We should really be thanking the women and men who
Speaker 3: worked in those.
Speaker 7: Okay, very quick, Yes, we will follow up if I
Speaker 7: just the question is were you involved in the producing
Speaker 7: of that report? It's just he answered no question.
Speaker 3: I was very aware of the report. I spoke to
Speaker 3: it at fresh conferences.
Speaker 7: Before answer question about the production of the report. We're
Speaker 7: going to not getting an answer by the reports.
Speaker 10: To whether or not you were so to refresh people's memory,
Speaker 10: Cuomo had a policy where he forced nursing homes to
Speaker 10: take COVID positive patients that led to outbreaks and nursing
Speaker 10: homes that led to people dying.
Speaker 11: When the New York.
Speaker 10: State produced a report on that, he the report systematically
Speaker 10: undercounted the deaths by saying, well, they didn't actually die
Speaker 10: in the nursing home because they got taken out and
Speaker 10: died either in an ambulance or in the hospital an
Speaker 10: hour later or whatever. And then the question was, well,
Speaker 10: were you involved in the fudging of this report? He
Speaker 10: told Congress no, And then we get an email that says,
Speaker 10: attached to are the governor's edits to this report?
Speaker 11: Yeah, And one of his staffers said.
Speaker 10: Yeah, this is Clomo's handwriting in the margins of the report.
Speaker 10: The criminal question might turn on whether or not his
Speaker 10: denial to Congress was you know, ironclad, or whether he
Speaker 10: was saying, I don't as far as I remember, I don't.
Speaker 11: I was not involved in that report.
Speaker 10: And so there's a question like that you're lying you
Speaker 10: do remember, but then how do you prove that somebody
Speaker 10: has a memory, Like it's clearly he.
Speaker 2: Lied, right, so I mean, which is like you can
Speaker 2: very much tell in the way he I know, dancing
Speaker 2: around and still doesn't have a good answer for this like.
Speaker 11: That, were you involved in report. I was aware of
Speaker 11: the report.
Speaker 2: There's no question my team was involved in that's not
Speaker 2: the question. That's not what we asked.
Speaker 11: May be very clear and say nothing clear right.
Speaker 2: And sore On's line on this, you know, when he
Speaker 2: was asked about it, because, like you said, it is
Speaker 2: a bit of a needle to thread for you know,
Speaker 2: his opponents who all want to position themselves being vehemently
Speaker 2: anti Trump, especially after Eric Adams's collusion with the Trump regime, etc.
Speaker 2: He was like, listen, he did lie to Congress. That
Speaker 2: being said, I totally Trump pursuing him has everything to
Speaker 2: do with retribution, nothing to do with justice. But yeah,
Speaker 2: he did commit a crime here. He did lie. He
Speaker 2: did ultimately lie to Congress. I thought overall, Cuomo, you know,
Speaker 2: he seemed like he seemed kind of rusty and complacent.
Speaker 2: You see this sometimes with politicians who've been in for
Speaker 2: a long time, and you know, they sort of take
Speaker 2: things for granted and maybe don't take their opponents as
Speaker 2: seriously as they should. Like he clearly has a level
Speaker 2: of contempt and derision towards Zoron in particular, and so
Speaker 2: he seemed kind of rusty and off his game in
Speaker 2: this debate, and I think that's evidence by that exchange
Speaker 2: where the question that he gets asked is obviously going
Speaker 2: to be asked of him, and he's doesn't have really
Speaker 2: prepared a great response. We also had, you know, Cuomo's
Speaker 2: running this very traditional playbook of I have the experience
Speaker 2: and Zoran has. He says that, like you know, he's
Speaker 2: been in government for twenty seven days and he doesn't
Speaker 2: know what he's doing, which is this sort of throwback argument,
Speaker 2: you know, play to expertise, although maybe in a may
Speaker 2: oral race it has more salience. I'm not sure, but
Speaker 2: I thought Zoron had a really good way of flipping
Speaker 2: this on Cuomo in this debate. Let's go ahead and
Speaker 2: take a listen to that.
Speaker 9: The difference between myself and Andrew Cuomo is that my
Speaker 9: campaign is not funded by the very billionaires who put
Speaker 9: Donald Trump in DC. I don't have to pick up
Speaker 9: the phone from Bill Ackman or Ken Langoing. I have
Speaker 9: to pick up the phone for the more than twenty
Speaker 9: thousand New Yorkers who contributed an average donation of about
Speaker 9: eighty dollars to break fundraising records and put our campaign
Speaker 9: in second place.
Speaker 11: You want to spot that.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Please. You know mister Mandami, he's very good on
Speaker 3: Twitter and with videos, but he actually produces nothing for
Speaker 3: him to accuse me of. Lyne's so called President Obama
Speaker 3: a liar and said President Obama was evil. So take
Speaker 3: everything with a grain of salt. Donald Trump would go
Speaker 3: through mister Montdommie like a hot knife through butter. He's
Speaker 3: been in government twenty seven minutes. He passed three bills.
Speaker 3: That's all he's done. He has no experience with Washington,
Speaker 3: no experience in New York City. He would be Trump's
Speaker 3: the light.
Speaker 11: All right, brief response with smam Donny, then we have
Speaker 11: to move on.
Speaker 9: Look, it's true that I don't have experience with corrupt
Speaker 9: Trump billionaires who are funding my campaign. I don't have
Speaker 9: experience with party politics and insider consultants. Or I do
Speaker 9: have experience, however, with winning four hundred and fifty million
Speaker 9: dollars in debt relief for thousands of working class taxi
Speaker 9: drivers and actually delivering the working class people.
Speaker 2: So I thought I thought he kind of crushed him
Speaker 2: in that exchange.
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean it's going to be I guess is
Speaker 10: a question partly of like do you want Andrew Cuomo back,
Speaker 10: do you want him in your face for the next
Speaker 10: four or eight years as mayor?
Speaker 11: A lot? You know, is it a thing where Okay,
Speaker 11: a lot of people don't like Woma, but he is
Speaker 11: what you get. I don't know, Well, it's it's hard.
Speaker 11: It's hard to say.
Speaker 10: He's such a known quantity and his father, like his
Speaker 10: camp has been trying to call mom Donnie a NEPO baby,
Speaker 10: but he's a known quantity because his own father was governor,
Speaker 10: his wife was Kennedy. It's like, come on, like, who's
Speaker 10: the who's the He.
Speaker 2: Is no Mario Cuomo by the way. Yeah, Also, the
Speaker 2: Trump's Delight barn is just a funny way of phrasing that.
Speaker 2: And look, Clomo is running a playbook that I think,
Speaker 2: prior to this moment would have worked very easily in
Speaker 2: New York City, not only with regard to just like
Speaker 2: he's got the name, people know who he is. You know,
Speaker 2: there is a tendency in New York City politics to
Speaker 2: reach for someone who is sort of like the safe
Speaker 2: establishment Canadon's. However, Adams ends up winning. Deblasio was a
Speaker 2: little bit of a break from that, but he's not
Speaker 2: that far out of like the you know, the mold
Speaker 2: in the mainstream whatever. And so this playbook that he's running,
Speaker 2: I think in any other year would be guaranteed to
Speaker 2: win him like a thirty point victory. But we first
Speaker 2: of all, he you know, went through his own scandals
Speaker 2: and is sort of disgraced in trying to recover his
Speaker 2: reputation at this point. Second of all, there is a
Speaker 2: real disgust among Democrats with the establishment Democratic Party that
Speaker 2: helped to usher in Trump, that did capitulate to Trump
Speaker 2: in many ways, Eric Adams again being emblematic of that.
Speaker 2: And so it's more of a question mark now over
Speaker 2: whether or not this traditional playbook, which in any other
Speaker 2: year likely would have worked, is going to work for
Speaker 2: him this time. And that is also on display in
Speaker 2: the way that they are aggressively attacking Zoron over his
Speaker 2: position on Israel. Obviously, there's a significant Jewish population in
Speaker 2: New York City and they're you know, really important electorally,
Speaker 2: and there are various, you know, relatively organized voting blocks
Speaker 2: that you know, Cuomo in particular, but many other candidates
Speaker 2: have been trying to appeal to. So there was this
Speaker 2: extraordinary moment at the end where they're doing their quote
Speaker 2: unquote lightning round and they ask all the candidates, what
Speaker 2: is the first country you're going to visit once if
Speaker 2: you get elected mayor of New York City. And so
Speaker 2: you have them all going down the list, and Zorn
Speaker 2: gives us answer of I'm not going to visit another country.
Speaker 2: I'm going to be here in New York working for
Speaker 2: the people. And unlike any other candidate, they decide to
Speaker 2: the moderate is to decide to jump in to say, okay, yeah,
Speaker 2: but would you visit Israel? And then go on this,
Speaker 2: you know, to dig into like and do you support
Speaker 2: israel right not only right to exist, but right to
Speaker 2: exist specifically as a Jewish state. Let's go ahead and
Speaker 2: take a listen to how that all went down.
Speaker 3: Given the hostility and the anti Semitism that has been
Speaker 3: shown in New York. I would go to Israel, mister Tilson,
Speaker 3: where would you go?
Speaker 10: I'd make my fourth trip to Israel, followed by my
Speaker 10: fifth trip to Ukraine, two of our greatest allies fighting
Speaker 10: on the front lines of the global war on terror.
Speaker 9: Mister mom Donnie, I would stay in New York City.
Speaker 9: My plans are to address New Yorkers across the five
Speaker 9: boroughs and focus on Uh.
Speaker 7: Mister mom, Donnie, can I just jump in? Would you
Speaker 7: visit Israel?
Speaker 2: Mayor?
Speaker 9: I will be doing as the mayor. I'll be standing
Speaker 9: up for Jewish New Yorkers, and I'll be meeting them
Speaker 9: wherever they are across the five boroughs, whether that's in
Speaker 9: their synagogues and temples, or at their homes or at
Speaker 9: the subway platform, because ultimately we need to focus on
Speaker 9: delivering on their concerns.
Speaker 7: Just yeso, no, do you believe in a Jewish state
Speaker 7: of Israel?
Speaker 9: I believe Israel has the right to exist as a
Speaker 9: Jewish state, as a state with equal rights.
Speaker 11: Right to exist as a Jewish state.
Speaker 3: And his answer was no, he won't visit Israel.
Speaker 9: I said that that's what he was trying to say. No, no, no,
Speaker 9: unlike unlike directly, I believe every state should be a
Speaker 9: state of equal rights.
Speaker 10: Ryan, your thoughts, well, first of all, the guy that
Speaker 10: wants to go to Israel and Ukraine.
Speaker 2: I like how they were competing big ever, former charter
Speaker 2: school guy, billionaire chargers.
Speaker 10: Competing for who could have bigger yellow ribbons, Like I'm
Speaker 10: going out of it. That's been so angry when he
Speaker 10: came out and saw us nobody had a bigger yellow
Speaker 10: ribbon than him.
Speaker 2: Outrageous. Some stafford got fired over that.
Speaker 10: But what is what's this guy going to Israel and Ukraine?
Speaker 10: Like I had to like check, this is a New
Speaker 10: York City mayoral election, right, what is he going to
Speaker 10: do in Ukraine? Are there are a lot of Ukrainians
Speaker 10: and Russians in New York City?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Well, Zoran's answers part, Yeah, I will meet with voters here. Yeah,
Speaker 2: That's what I will do. And then the moderators need
Speaker 2: to jump in.
Speaker 11: What you're saying you won't go, but you go to Israel.
Speaker 2: It's like can you imagine them going through a checklist
Speaker 2: of every other four and well what about what about Russia?
Speaker 11: To chat?
Speaker 2: What about that? Are you going to Mexico? I mean
Speaker 2: when when's your trip to Brazil? I mean it's just
Speaker 2: only for the country. And then the other piece here
Speaker 2: is Zoran says I think Israel has a right to exist,
Speaker 2: and well, but what about as a Jewish state? And
Speaker 2: he refuses to back an explicitly ethno nationalist state and says,
Speaker 2: I think they should have equal rights. And again I
Speaker 2: think this playbook, it may well still be effective, right.
Speaker 2: I'm not saying it won't be, But there is a
Speaker 2: completely frankly racist and caricaturish view of what Jewish voters
Speaker 2: actually think about Israel and Palestine. And many Jewish voters,
Speaker 2: by the way, a majority voted for Democrats, a majority
Speaker 2: are opposed to US continuing to endlessly fund this horrific genocide.
Speaker 2: Many have been involved in the protests against our government
Speaker 2: policy visa the Israel. And so you know, the tried
Speaker 2: and true playbook of saying he's not pro Israel enough.
Speaker 2: Maybe it will work, maybe it's possible. I'm not saying
Speaker 2: it doesn't have any power, but I do think it
Speaker 2: represents a completely outdated mode of politics that does not
Speaker 2: reckon with the fact that Zorn is getting at there
Speaker 2: that hey, I'll meet Jewish voters here wherever they are,
Speaker 2: because guess what, they are complete human beings who have
Speaker 2: interests separate and apart from whether or not I decide
Speaker 2: to make a trip to Israel and whatever statements I
Speaker 2: make about this one foreign country.
Speaker 10: And poll a couple of weeks ago, specifically of Jewish
Speaker 10: voters in New York that found that Cuomo was only
Speaker 10: leading him by eleven points among Jewish voters. Well, and
Speaker 10: that was happening at the time when overall Cuomo was
Speaker 10: leading him by something like sixteen points.
Speaker 2: Well, there was that poll recently that found AOC beating
Speaker 2: Schumer by a significant margin among Jewish voters. So this
Speaker 2: caricaturish view of what you need to say to appeal
Speaker 2: to this, I mean, it really is a racist view
Speaker 2: of what you need to say to appeal to this
Speaker 2: one demographic is completely you know, it is completely outdated
Speaker 2: and anachronistic.
Speaker 10: And one of those propagandists, a al I forget his
Speaker 10: last name, who always in my Twitter feed when he
Speaker 10: saw that poll showing that twenty percent of Jewish voters
Speaker 10: in New York were supporting Mom Donnie and thirty one
Speaker 10: percent supporting Cuomo, he said, not a single one of
Speaker 10: them is actually Jewish, just like it's an anti Semitic.
Speaker 11: What do you mean, they're not Jewish?
Speaker 10: They're only Jewish if they vote in a New York
Speaker 10: City mayoral election for the candidate that you believe they
Speaker 10: should vote for.
Speaker 2: Right, that thinking is very common, though, I feel, especially
Speaker 2: on the right, this thinking of like, well some of
Speaker 2: these well, Joe.
Speaker 11: Biden, you're not black. You don't support Biden, You're not.
Speaker 2: We're not black. But there is this view of like, oh, well,
Speaker 2: the you know, people who are culturally Jewish or who
Speaker 2: are more like secular Jewish or like reform Jewish, like
Speaker 2: they don't really count. That doesn't really count. The only
Speaker 2: ones that count are the ones that I say count
Speaker 2: or that uphold that you know, you know, lockstep zion
Speaker 2: is pro Israel view.
Speaker 10: But if you go too far right and it's an
Speaker 10: anti Zionist Orthodox, do they count.
Speaker 2: No county, they don't count either. So yeah, I mean
Speaker 2: it was really I think a fascinating debate all around,
Speaker 2: Like you said, Lisav Lursus about how many people are
Speaker 2: gonna watch it, although you will see that the Twitter
Speaker 2: clips floating around. But I think the dynamics were good
Speaker 2: for zarn and that he handled himself very well. Cuomo
Speaker 2: hand handled himself badly, and Cuomo was taken fire from
Speaker 2: from absolutely everybody on the stage, which is also you know,
Speaker 2: a difficult position to do, and that he did not
Speaker 2: handle all that well. So AOC's and now do you
Speaker 2: think that moves the needle? Do you think she got
Speaker 2: it at the right time? I know people are saying
Speaker 2: she should have come out earlier and really been there
Speaker 2: on the ground trying to build name recognition for him,
Speaker 2: and now basically he's sort of coalesced aled AOC voters,
Speaker 2: so it may not make that much of a difference.
Speaker 11: Earlier is probably better.
Speaker 10: The best argument for this one is that it maximizes
Speaker 10: public attention to the endorsement. You know, if she does
Speaker 10: it right away, you know, we had him on the
Speaker 10: program very early.
Speaker 2: Right in the race, and it's like people didn't really care.
Speaker 11: So people didn't really care, whre's this guy?
Speaker 10: Right, Like, no, this guy's really cool. You're going to
Speaker 10: see him interesting. And so if she did it, then
Speaker 10: it's like, man, whenever he and then he would have
Speaker 10: been known as the AOC endorsed candidate. But he's already
Speaker 10: known as the DSA candidate. So there's a ton of
Speaker 10: media attention now around the fact that she just endorsed
Speaker 10: him and he did very well on that debate and
Speaker 10: Cuomo did poorly, so it's combining to create some energy.
Speaker 10: It may be a case I don't know, but it
Speaker 10: may be a case where Waiting ended up on net
Speaker 10: being better than going early, because it's almost never better
Speaker 10: now if she would start early and do a unified
Speaker 10: thing like We're going to raise enormous amounts of money
Speaker 10: from you for you from my email list, and I'm
Speaker 10: I'm going to rally with you everywhere.
Speaker 11: That's better.
Speaker 10: But that was probably never in the cards, although, which
Speaker 10: which is an interesting question in its own right why
Speaker 10: that wouldn't have.
Speaker 11: Been in the cards.
Speaker 2: She's very cause, I mean, I also think this is
Speaker 2: kind of an outdated mode of thinking. I'm being so
Speaker 2: cautious of like when you give your endorsement too.
Speaker 11: And from endorses any koop right away.
Speaker 2: Exactly right, and if they don't win, then he just
Speaker 2: wants someone else, you know.
Speaker 11: It's like, oh, it was there, fould if I didn't
Speaker 11: endorse her.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I do think that that is also kind
Speaker 2: of an outdated playbook. And then the other question is
Speaker 2: whether Bernie is going to ultimately get involved here as well.
Speaker 2: Is possible he was sort of waiting for AOC to
Speaker 2: jump in since she is actually in New York City
Speaker 2: and I don't know, So we'll see how all of
Speaker 2: those things play out. But you know, the polls have
Speaker 2: been tightening. He has definitely outperformed what anyone's I think,
Speaker 2: including his own team, potentially expectations of where this race
Speaker 2: would ultimately be. And you know, in the final stretch
Speaker 2: here as people who are lower information voters who weren't
Speaker 2: tuned in before start to tune in, what are the
Speaker 2: sort of messages that they're hearing and what is appealing
Speaker 2: to them at this point in time. It's I think
Speaker 2: important from a national Democratic Party conversation because there is
Speaker 2: this big question about where the Democratic base is in,
Speaker 2: how things are shifting within the coalition, what types of
Speaker 2: candidates they're looking for, what sorts of things may be
Speaker 2: on the table that previously weren't on the table, And
Speaker 2: this could be a kind of canary in the coal
Speaker 2: mine for where things are are hadding nationally as well.
Speaker 2: So that's why it's interesting not to mention it's a
Speaker 2: giant city and important and all that.
Speaker 10: Yeah, Cuomo was still the odds on favorite. The ballots
Speaker 10: go out, I think you're fourteenth. The actual election is
Speaker 10: twenty fourth, twenty fourth or twenty six. Don't want to
Speaker 10: give any misinformation. Just google that you're yourself. Yeah, we'll
Speaker 10: see And anyway, don't forget that for the rest of
Speaker 10: this month, one month free if you go to Breakingpoints
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Speaker 2: You're right.
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Speaker 2: Yes, indeed, speaking of the expansion to the show, and
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