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Speaker 1: This is the piked In Massacre returned to Pike County

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Speaker 1: season two bonus episode Crime and Media. I'm Courtney Armstrong,

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Speaker 1: a television producer at Katie Studios with Jeff Shane and

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Speaker 1: Stephanie Lydecker, CEO and founder of Katie Studios and producer

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Speaker 1: of The piked In Massacre. Over the course of the

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Speaker 1: last decade, true crime is exploded as the go to

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Speaker 1: genre across media platforms, and telling the story of the

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Speaker 1: Rodent family and their murders, We've often asked ourselves, why

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Speaker 1: are we, as creators of the series so interested in

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Speaker 1: the story and why are you the listener so fascinated

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Speaker 1: by it? So we gathered a group of experts to

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Speaker 1: explore these questions and ask ourselves, is it a crime

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Speaker 1: to love true crime? The True Crime podcast audience is

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Speaker 1: seventy five percent women. That's kind of an astounding stat right, Well,

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Speaker 1: I think as women we are more socialized to know

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Speaker 1: that the world could be a dangerous and unsafe place.

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Speaker 1: That's doctor Heidi Horsley. She's a psychologist specializing in grief

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Speaker 1: counseling and as co founder of the Open to Hope Foundation.

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Speaker 1: Well constantly looking up at our backs, being very aware

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Speaker 1: of our surroundings, not being you know, in alleys at night.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're very very aware that we could be victimized.

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Speaker 1: So I think it's that. And I also think women

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Speaker 1: are very social, We're very connected. We want to understand

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Speaker 1: other people. I think we tend to be very people

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Speaker 1: oriented and maybe in family oriented. I'm not saying men aren't,

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Speaker 1: but oftentimes women are even more so. Maybe that's part

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Speaker 1: of it as well, like protecting our pack. It's an

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Speaker 1: interesting thing because I hadn't realized the true crime audience

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Speaker 1: was quite as skewed towards women as it is. And

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Speaker 1: I'm certainly a watcher also, And I think it allows

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Speaker 1: us to feel too, you know, we see something that's

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Speaker 1: like love based or makes us laugh. You know, films

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Speaker 1: get to make us feel things that maybe we don't

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Speaker 1: necessarily want to feel. Jeff, as a man, what do

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Speaker 1: you think about that? It's definitely a different experience being

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Speaker 1: a man, Like I don't have to look over my

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Speaker 1: shoulder in the same way after a certain age, I

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Speaker 1: think for most men, you're not prone to being a victim.

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Speaker 1: And I can walk through a parking lot without fear,

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Speaker 1: which I think is a privilege that I have not

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Speaker 1: fully appreciated until working with Courtney and stuff on crime projects.

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Speaker 1: So being aware of that privilege I think has been

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Speaker 1: eye opening. And I think putting myself in your shoes

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Speaker 1: and listening to a podcast, I would be like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a red flag. Like you could see how a

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Speaker 1: toxic relationship between Jake and Hannah or however you describe it.

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Speaker 1: What can you learn from that? It's way easy to

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Speaker 1: spot things in other people's lives in our own too,

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Speaker 1: you know, So there is a real tool from that.

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Speaker 1: We could look at anybody and say, oh, I see

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Speaker 1: the red flag there, and is that bad from a

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Speaker 1: psychological you know, even for listeners who are listening to

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Speaker 1: this driving on their way to work or you know,

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Speaker 1: doing whatever it is we do when we hear a podcast.

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Speaker 1: Is it because we are desperate to hear other people's

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Speaker 1: bad stuff because our lives feel better? I don't think so.

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Speaker 1: I think it's people are desperate to hear really extreme

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Speaker 1: tails because it helps us categorize things in our own

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Speaker 1: life and maybe look out for things differently, because when

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Speaker 1: you're in the thick of it, it's really hard to

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Speaker 1: see out of trouble. You know, sometimes we don't spot

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Speaker 1: it as cleanly in our own lives. Journalists. Chris Graves

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Speaker 1: covered the road and murders for the Cincinnati Enquirer. She

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Speaker 1: was in Pike County just days after the Rodents were

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Speaker 1: murdered in twenty sixteen. Her reporting was important and giving

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Speaker 1: a voice to the victims families in the early days

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Speaker 1: of the investigation. Chris gave us her frank assessment on

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Speaker 1: the rise in true crime content. You know, this will

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Speaker 1: sound really really basic, but I think you start from

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Speaker 1: a place if this were me, how would I want

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Speaker 1: to be treated? We have to rise above the tiny

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Speaker 1: story that just hurts people, you know, the showing up

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Speaker 1: and jamming the microphone in somebody's face, And how do

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Speaker 1: you feel? And I mean, if I were going to

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Speaker 1: be completely candid, I think constantly thinking, you know, is

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Speaker 1: it information or is it entertainment? We have to figure

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Speaker 1: out a way to move beyond that salacious entertainment whatever.

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Speaker 1: They are fascinating, deep stories to be told, and Laurd

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Speaker 1: only knows. This story has so many elements of storytell

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Speaker 1: But there's a way in which you can tell it.

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Speaker 1: I hope, I hope without taking advantage of people. You know,

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Speaker 1: we did go to Pike County and you, to your point,

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Speaker 1: knocked on doors without a microphone, without a camera for

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Speaker 1: all the obvious reasons, and it is, it's it's hard

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Speaker 1: on the heart. We do try to be thoughtful, knowing

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Speaker 1: that that would be really difficult if it were my

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Speaker 1: door that somebody was knocking on. But I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what the answer is there. If nobody

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Speaker 1: hears it, then also we're not doing our job either.

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Speaker 1: You say entertainment, we have a standoff in that because

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Speaker 1: I don't really see it as entertainment. I also think

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Speaker 1: bigness is sometimes we're the emotion business. Right. It's almost

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Speaker 1: like a shout from the rooftop of hear this, see

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Speaker 1: this happened. This is a time stamp on something. And

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Speaker 1: what's the balance done of that? How do you balance

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Speaker 1: being respectful of people's lives and also people want to

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Speaker 1: know every detail of the story. How do you balance

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Speaker 1: that in terms of making it respectful to what happened,

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Speaker 1: but also allowing people to consume it and take that in. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a good question. I think you try to, you know,

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Speaker 1: while using finding fact I think you also try to

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Speaker 1: approach people with compassion and empathy. Focus on the person's life,

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Speaker 1: you know, be accurate. There's nothing worse than getting stuff wrong,

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Speaker 1: especially with someone who doesn't have a voice anymore. Avoid

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Speaker 1: gory details just because they're gory. Do they need to

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Speaker 1: see that? Will it cause unnecessary harm to people? Will

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Speaker 1: I revictimize people? But the gory details, to some extent,

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Speaker 1: is what differentiates one thing from another. In the spirit

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Speaker 1: of making sure that people are being emotionally charged and

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Speaker 1: mad as hell? Is that wrong? It is extraordinarily a

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Speaker 1: gory case. There was three children left alive at the

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Speaker 1: scene and very hideous circumstances. Imagine a four day old

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Speaker 1: being in her mother's arms while she's shot two times

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Speaker 1: in the face. Right, we know that is disgusting. But

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Speaker 1: some of this is shocking, and if you don't feel shocked,

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Speaker 1: then you don't hear the story. How much is too

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Speaker 1: much in terms of sharing and oversharing the gory? So

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Speaker 1: I think my point in saying that is being careful

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Speaker 1: that we don't just report for lurid curiosity. Some of

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Speaker 1: that is also making sure that they hold the power

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Speaker 1: in the interview. And again I'm not talking about politicians,

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Speaker 1: but those who get thrust into this horror through no

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Speaker 1: fault of their own, and they deserve that power and

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Speaker 1: that voice. And I see myself just sort of as

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Speaker 1: a conduit. You know, I'm an ear and I'm a conduit,

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Speaker 1: and I tried to share a story, hopefully in an empathetic,

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Speaker 1: compassionate way. But your approach matters a lot, Chris. I

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Speaker 1: just want to say something about approach because I had

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Speaker 1: completely agree with what you're saying. And the flip side

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Speaker 1: of all of this is when I worked with the

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Speaker 1: nine to eleven families for ten years, initially after the

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Speaker 1: nine to eleven events, the media descended on people and

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Speaker 1: they did not show up knocking on doors. They hid

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Speaker 1: in bushes. They were intrusive and invasive. They wanted to

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Speaker 1: catch the families that I worked with in their most

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Speaker 1: vulnerable positions. And it was extremely overwhelming for the families,

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Speaker 1: and it wasn't helpful in many cases, not in all cases,

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Speaker 1: because there were people that were there for good reasons,

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Speaker 1: but there were other people that just wanted to get

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Speaker 1: the story and then leave New York. We ought to

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Speaker 1: be asking all the time, what are we doing? Where

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Speaker 1: are we at? I guess my challenge to all of

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Speaker 1: us doing this work is to think about minimizing harm

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Speaker 1: and what does that mean and it doesn't you know.

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Speaker 1: I also want to be clear that that doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: that sometimes when I'm interviewing people, I'm sure I'm causing

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Speaker 1: some harm. I'm asking people to relive and tell me

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Speaker 1: where they've gone and what they've experienced. When I did

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Speaker 1: the interview with Bobby Joe and certainly went into fairly

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Speaker 1: graphic detail about what she found. Now again I tell

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Speaker 1: you I didn't write everything, but I thought, you know,

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Speaker 1: in that balance, and it's that constant balance all the time,

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Speaker 1: how much is too much? What isn't enough? You know,

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Speaker 1: I thought her description of bending over the bodies, you know,

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Speaker 1: of Frankie and Hannah Hazel to get the baby was compelling.

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Speaker 1: But my point in saying that is I thought that

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Speaker 1: scene said more than just the gory detail in my

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Speaker 1: way of thinking, like, Okay, she comes upon this, You've

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Speaker 1: got two people who are obviously you shot multiple times.

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Speaker 1: I mean, she didn't tell me that, but the way

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Speaker 1: she described it sounded like that. But yet they leave

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Speaker 1: the baby alive. Huh isn't that interesting? So that to

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Speaker 1: me was I mean, And again I didn't put it

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Speaker 1: in just because it's you know, wow, that's a really

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Speaker 1: interesting thing, and boy, I could be you know, it

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Speaker 1: is interesting, But I think it's interesting in what it

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Speaker 1: says about at the time, what it said about the

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Speaker 1: killers that you know, they didn't kill everybody, and what's

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Speaker 1: up with that? Why would they do that? So either

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Speaker 1: the person killing him was absolutely one hundred percent monster

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Speaker 1: or that had to have been somebody who knew them

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Speaker 1: who couldn't kill a child. So what does that say?

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Speaker 1: That is the story that I think, certainly for myself personally,

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Speaker 1: really tipped me over. The sheer horror of putting yourself

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Speaker 1: in Bobby Joe Manley's shoes, even if it's a stretch

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Speaker 1: to be able to do so, I can't imagine anything

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Speaker 1: more hideous, right, And of course we put ourselves in

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Speaker 1: that position very quickly and realize, wow, that is something

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Speaker 1: that's really hard to come back from. And maybe had

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Speaker 1: you not reported about it, I wouldn't personally be as

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Speaker 1: mad as hell as I am about it, right, and

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Speaker 1: we wouldn't feel as hyper connected to the victims and

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Speaker 1: the victims families. Certainly, if you're not a relative, or

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Speaker 1: you're not from the hometown of the exact same place.

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Speaker 1: You know, you have a different perspective coming into it

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Speaker 1: where you could step in and say, well, that doesn't

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Speaker 1: really add up. Why would a cartel hit equal babies

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Speaker 1: alive and dogs alive? That doesn't really seem like the

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Speaker 1: mo But again, if you're super close to it, it's

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Speaker 1: hard to see that potentially, And I would really applaud

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Speaker 1: that as an example of something that makes people emotionally

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Speaker 1: get attached to making sure that justice is served. What

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Speaker 1: you're saying is so important. I mean, we need to

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Speaker 1: get people to care enough to care. And the way

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Speaker 1: you do that is to bring them through these stories

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Speaker 1: into that into that world, capturing the moment and bring

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Speaker 1: listeners into that moment so they can kind of visualize

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Speaker 1: them be there and like you said, Stephanie, be angry

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Speaker 1: as hell, and you're creating awareness and you know, you're

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Speaker 1: building a platform for the story and in the long run,

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Speaker 1: creating change. We're going to take a quick break here,

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Speaker 1: we'll be back in a moment. Reporter Angeanette Levy and

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Speaker 1: forensics expert Joseph Morgan joined the conversation. What compels you

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Speaker 1: in terms of you know, getting to the bottom of

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Speaker 1: stories and telling stories that happened to people. I've never

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Speaker 1: been satisfied until I know every detail, and I think

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Speaker 1: that I always want to know what happened and make

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Speaker 1: sure that I know the true story of what happened.

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Speaker 1: You know, so many times share stories where you don't

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Speaker 1: know what happened, you don't know the truth, or you

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Speaker 1: feel like you know the truth but not the whole truth.

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Speaker 1: And that was one of the things for me, and

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Speaker 1: especially with this case, one of the things that we're

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Speaker 1: just so awful. You know, we cover awful things in

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Speaker 1: this business. We don't go to work every day and

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Speaker 1: get to do happy stories. Most of the time it's

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Speaker 1: something sad or something serious. And I just think it's

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Speaker 1: sad enough when one person is killed in a story,

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Speaker 1: but to have eight people killed all in one night,

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Speaker 1: eight people in one family. To have one family wiped

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Speaker 1: out with little kids, a baby, a newborn baby sleeping

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Speaker 1: right next to her mother, that is sick. And I

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Speaker 1: think that it was a different kind of case in

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Speaker 1: that respect, because people should be able to lay in

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Speaker 1: their homes at night next to their children and not

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Speaker 1: fear being shot in the head or or killed or

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Speaker 1: shot in any way. You know that it's just it

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Speaker 1: goes against every kind of human feeling I have as

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Speaker 1: a human being that we should be treating each other

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Speaker 1: with kindness and humanities. You know, I got into this

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Speaker 1: business to tell true stories and to make a difference. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, I always try to go the extra mile,

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Speaker 1: and this case was you know, just particularly horrifying. And

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Speaker 1: you can't let your emotions like influence how you tell

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Speaker 1: this story that you have to bring some humanity to it. Chris,

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Speaker 1: why did you become a journalist and specifically in true crime?

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Speaker 1: I like finding out information. I think I'm insatiably curious

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Speaker 1: and I like to find out, you know, why things

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Speaker 1: happen and how they happen. I'm a big why and

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Speaker 1: how a person and the thrill of finding out information.

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Speaker 1: What can I do in a day? I just started

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Speaker 1: covering it. This world of knowledge that different pieces of

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Speaker 1: people can figure out to me and they can piece

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Speaker 1: it together and they can and then there's justice, right,

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Speaker 1: and then you use all of that for the you know,

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Speaker 1: seeking of justice. And how the systems work is really

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Speaker 1: interesting to me. How things work, how the court system works,

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Speaker 1: Why what's going to happen. What do they need to

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Speaker 1: prove is all? It's all part of the same sort

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Speaker 1: of ingredients in the soup. I think, Joseph, how did

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Speaker 1: you get into this line of business? What made you

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Speaker 1: grow up and say I want to be a medical

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Speaker 1: death examiner? For me, it was fascinating. You see it

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Speaker 1: from the perspective of all the peripheral issues that come

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Speaker 1: up that you see what's left behind in their weight,

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Speaker 1: you know, the life that they live, what's in their

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Speaker 1: chest of drawers at home, what's sitting beside the chair

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Speaker 1: the daddy sat in all the time, the lazy boy

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Speaker 1: in front of the the TV. You know, the little table

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Speaker 1: there where he kept his pipe, or maybe what was

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Speaker 1: mama hiding in the kitchen cabinets? Stuff that people don't see.

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Speaker 1: And I think this goes back to this figure. Is

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Speaker 1: the reason I think that this is so compelling with

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Speaker 1: all of these other cases. And it's dictated by geography,

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Speaker 1: It's dictated by the personality of a place pipe then

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Speaker 1: Pike County it has it is in the story, in

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Speaker 1: the story of these lives lost, It's it is a character.

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Speaker 1: What is our obsession with true crime? As those who

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Speaker 1: follow it closely and dedicate our careers to it. What's

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Speaker 1: up with that? We're storytellers, I mean back from the

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Speaker 1: beginning of time, right, I mean and even Caveman time,

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Speaker 1: we were drawing pictographs to communicate. So we have a

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Speaker 1: human desire to communicate and they're compelling stories. Something bad

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Speaker 1: happened and we want to find I think we are

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Speaker 1: seekers of truth or seekers of fact. How did this happen?

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Speaker 1: That's why we rubber neck at car accidents. And truthfully,

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Speaker 1: it's the classic good versus evil, right, good and bad.

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Speaker 1: I think that's what's draws us to things. I mean

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Speaker 1: religious text, I mean most novels, most I mean, you

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Speaker 1: know there's there's a protagonist and an antagonist. Also, something

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Speaker 1: I was reading too about why people love true crime

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Speaker 1: is the adrenaline rush of it that you get this

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Speaker 1: kind of your heart rate rises and you feel like

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Speaker 1: what you feel like when you go on a roller coaster. No,

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Speaker 1: I agree with you, Jeff. I think that listening to

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Speaker 1: true crime, we're going on the trip. We're taking the

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Speaker 1: trip with people. You know, we might be just watching it,

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Speaker 1: but like you said, our heart races, we get anxious.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it takes us into those spaces

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Speaker 1: and it does give us in the dram rush. I

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Speaker 1: come here through my own story and my own trauma.

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Speaker 1: So you know, I don't know other people's stories, but

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Speaker 1: you know, my brother and cousin died traumatically when the

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Speaker 1: car they were driving at seventeen years old g up,

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Speaker 1: and I was extremely traumatized by the way that they died,

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Speaker 1: how they died, and took my own journey. I was

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Speaker 1: in a very dark existential place and took my journey

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Speaker 1: from the darkness into the light. And you know, use

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Speaker 1: what have helped me to help other people. You know,

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Speaker 1: I work to your firefighter families for ten years after

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Speaker 1: nine eleven, the same families watch them heal. And research

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Speaker 1: shows that peer support is one of the main things

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Speaker 1: that help people after traumatic losses. And you know, like

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Speaker 1: you said, listening to other people who have had traumatic

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Speaker 1: losses and not only survived but thrived helps us. And

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Speaker 1: it also helps people. It normalizes people's experiences when they're

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Speaker 1: going through traumatic loss to hear other people that have

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Speaker 1: been there, even if the losses are different. You know,

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Speaker 1: I also think we're a little obsessed with death, right

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Speaker 1: It's like one of the few things that we all

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Speaker 1: can agree on. We are all are going to die

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Speaker 1: at some point, and the circumstances by which we do

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Speaker 1: is very unknowable for the most part. And listen, we

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Speaker 1: know we're going to have There's always going to be life,

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Speaker 1: and there's always going to be death. And how we

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Speaker 1: die and the circumstances is something that I have to

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Speaker 1: assume is slightly intrinsic for all of us to be

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Speaker 1: curious about. I agree with that. I think that every

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Speaker 1: single time somebody dies, you're staring at your own mortality.

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Speaker 1: I think that's why death is so difficult. Like you said,

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Speaker 1: this puts every time you read and hear about these

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Speaker 1: kinds of things like the pipe to massacres, you think

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Speaker 1: about your own mortality, your own safety, your own death.

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Speaker 1: You know it just you start to obsess and think

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Speaker 1: about all these things. And I think that's pretty normal.

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Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back

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Speaker 1: in a moment. If something tragic happened to you or

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Speaker 1: your family, would you want a podcast or a documentary

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Speaker 1: done about the story of your family's tragedy? Is that?

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Speaker 1: How full does that move the needle? You know? I

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Speaker 1: kind of have thought about that before when people won't

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Speaker 1: talk with us the media. You know, I show up

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Speaker 1: on people's doorsteps, and there are a lot of times

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Speaker 1: people don't want to talk and that they have different

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Speaker 1: reasons for that, and I understand that, but I always

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Speaker 1: think to myself, Gosh, if I lost a loved one,

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Speaker 1: I would probably be doing anything I could to try

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Speaker 1: to bring attention to the case to figure out how

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Speaker 1: it could be solved. So I don't understand how some

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Speaker 1: of these families make it through, you know. I guess

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Speaker 1: they say there's that old saying whatever you know, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't kill you, makes you stronger. So I, you know,

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Speaker 1: you see the will of some of some of these people,

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Speaker 1: and I just always admire their tenacity and their ability

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Speaker 1: to live and move forward. If I were the victim

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Speaker 1: of a crime, or a family member of mine was

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Speaker 1: the victim of a crime, I would want something done

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Speaker 1: that anything that could help bring some light to the case,

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Speaker 1: that would generate leads, or generate anything that would lead

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Speaker 1: to the truth being uncovered and somebody being held a Hannible,

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Speaker 1: I was always in full transparency thought why would anyone

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Speaker 1: ever partake in a crime documentary or podcasts? And working

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Speaker 1: in this podcast in particular, it made me realize that

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Speaker 1: if people who didn't know the victim don't speak for

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Speaker 1: them or speak about them, then we're just going to

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Speaker 1: get the story wrong. It's impossible to know the intricacies

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Speaker 1: of someone's life hearing it secondhand through a through an

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Speaker 1: article or a YouTube video. So in doing that, I

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Speaker 1: think being able to hear details about Dana Rodan being

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Speaker 1: an incredible mother and a hard worker, like, that's what

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Speaker 1: paints the picture and makes you care court what about you.

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Speaker 1: So something from last week really stuck out. In the

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Speaker 1: case of Curtis and Jennifer Burgett, Aie Montgomery has been tirelessly,

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Speaker 1: tirelessly looking for resolution that has yet to come. And

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Speaker 1: one thing she said, and this was even in dealing

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Speaker 1: with law enforcement, was Hey, guess what. The squeaky wheel

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Speaker 1: gets attention and can reinvigorate an investigation. And you don't

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Speaker 1: know if you're walking around in town and the person

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Speaker 1: guilty of murder of your loved one is checking you

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Speaker 1: out of the supermarket. So to be able to bring

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Speaker 1: attention to what is paralyzing many families in unknown grief

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Speaker 1: and just not knowing, I think that's really important. I

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Speaker 1: sort of feel strongly that if somebody has experienced something

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Speaker 1: very traumatic and the rest of us are not made

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Speaker 1: aware of it from a human perspective, and that we

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Speaker 1: are not forced to really care about it and get

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Speaker 1: mad about it and make sure it doesn't continue to

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Speaker 1: happen again, then maybe that's not okay either. We're all

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Speaker 1: sort of connected by the stories we share, good and bad,

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Speaker 1: and some of these being so wildly extreme. I would

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Speaker 1: always say, if something happened to me or my family,

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Speaker 1: please please do a podcast or a documentary or shout

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Speaker 1: from the rooftops that we did this in our good times,

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Speaker 1: and that whoever did this to us would be brought

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Speaker 1: to justice. And then I pose the same thing to you, Joseph.

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Speaker 1: A few years ago, I attended the first grind Con

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Speaker 1: I'd ever been to as a guest of people that

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Speaker 1: were presenting there, and I was on panels and all

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing, and I didn't really know what

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Speaker 1: to think about it, you know, because when I think

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Speaker 1: about something that says Cohn in it, I always think

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Speaker 1: about people dressing up like cartoon characters, you know, and

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Speaker 1: living out these alternative universes, you know, that they kind

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Speaker 1: of exist in in their private lives and that sort

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Speaker 1: of thing. So I didn't know what to expect. And

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Speaker 1: I got there, you know, and as an old investigator,

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Speaker 1: I'd had people, you know, that would approach me and

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Speaker 1: they call me up at night, you know, late night,

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Speaker 1: while I'd be there at my desk at the m's

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Speaker 1: office in Atlanta, and they say, I'm looking for my mama.

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Speaker 1: She's been missing ten years. I'd entertained the Seing people

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Speaker 1: for years and years and listen to their stories and

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Speaker 1: they just want somebody to talk to. But this took

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Speaker 1: on a different tenor from me when I was there,

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Speaker 1: something that kind of punched me in the gut. These

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Speaker 1: people were showing up, and they weren't just true Crown fans.

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Speaker 1: They were flying all the way from places like Seattle

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Speaker 1: and there's. People would show up and they had files, papers,

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Speaker 1: and they would walk up to us with tears in

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Speaker 1: their eyes and they would say, please, can you help me.

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Speaker 1: My sister was raped in Dallas, Texas in nineteen seventy five.

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Speaker 1: It killed my parents. It's still insolved. Please help me,

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Speaker 1: and they're openly weeping, you know, And I was. I

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Speaker 1: found myself in that moment in time, surrounded by people

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Speaker 1: like this, and there's this great unknown and unseen, massive

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Speaker 1: people out there that are not served. And the reason

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Speaker 1: they're not served is because right now, as we speak,

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Speaker 1: people are dying somewhere right now or across the nation,

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Speaker 1: and there are people that are in mourning. And can

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Speaker 1: you imagine always being in mourning and never being able

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Speaker 1: to cycle out of the people. I hate to with closure.

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Speaker 1: I hate, I despise it because no one ever gets

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Speaker 1: closure in a homicide. It doesn't happen. They just want answers. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, for me personally, yeah, God forbid, you know,

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Speaker 1: than anything would happen to me and mine. I'd say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: let the hide come with the hair, you know, do it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if it's going to bring about information, not closure.

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Speaker 1: Closure is something that's abstract. If it brings about more

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Speaker 1: information that's going to help people, yeah, I say let's

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Speaker 1: do it. For more information on the case and relevant photos,

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Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The piked

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Speaker 1: In Massacre Returned to Pike County is executive produced by

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Speaker 1: Stephanie Lydecker and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed

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Speaker 1: by executive producer Jared Aston. Additional Producing by Jeff Shane,

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Speaker 1: Andrew Becker, and Chris Graves. The Piked and Massacre Returned

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Speaker 1: to Pike County is a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios.

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Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.