WEBVTT - Dr. Jenn Carson 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:07.400 You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:11.160 Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:14.120 are solely those of the individuals participating in the show 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:17.560 and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:21.280 This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:24.160 for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:27.280 --> 0:00:30.760 Hi, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm vet Gente 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:31.639 Lay and. 0:00:31.560 --> 0:00:34.720 I'm Rosha Peccerreiro. Today we're going to do things a 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:38.520 little bit differently on Facing Evil because we are going 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:44.800 to have a guest on that is somewhat of a. 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:46.160 Victim of this case. 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:48.120 She doesn't like to call herself a victim, but you're 0:00:48.159 --> 0:00:50.600 going to understand why once we get into the discussion. 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:53.519 Yeah, and there's going to be a mic drop at 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:56.280 the very end, so wait for that. But the case 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:59.600 that we're talking about is the San Francisco witch killings 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:03.160 that place between nineteen eighty one and nineteen eighty three. 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:08.119 The two killers were Michael Bear Carson and Susan Carson, 0:01:08.959 --> 0:01:12.800 and they murdered at least three people. And our guest 0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:19.119 today is doctor Jen Carson. She is Michael Carson's daughter. 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:24.280 Yes, that's right, and doctor Jen Carson has an incredible 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:29.120 story of resilience and survival, and she's one of the 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:33.240 most inspiring humans I have the pleasure of knowing. I'm 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:35.360 so honored to have her here with us today. I'm 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:39.080 facing evil, but first our producer Trevor is going to 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:40.559 walk us through today's case. 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:47.080 The couple labeled the San Francisco Witch Killers Michael Bear 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:51.200 Carson and his second wife Susan smiling is the camera rule. 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:55.160 They're wicked. They're just wicked. He ran into the Carsons 0:01:55.200 --> 0:02:00.040 that were traveling through and they were killing witches, and 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:03.240 she said that Clark was a witch and they therefore 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:04.040 killed him. 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:08.080 I remember thinking, I'm the daughter of the devil. 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:12.720 The San Francisco witch killings were a series of connected 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:16.480 murders that took place between nineteen eighty one and nineteen 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:19.919 eighty three. The first victim was twenty three year old 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:23.400 Karen Barnes, who was found dead in her apartment in 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:27.520 March of nineteen eighty one. She had been stabbed thirteen times, 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:31.399 wrapped in a blanket and hidden inside the basement. Then, 0:02:31.760 --> 0:02:34.920 in May of nineteen eighty two, the burnt remains of 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:39.560 twenty six year old Clark Stephens were found in Humboldt County, California. 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:44.480 Stephens had been shot to death before his body was burned. Finally, 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:48.040 in January of nineteen eighty three, thirty year old John 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:52.480 Charles Hallier picked up two hitchhikers near Bakersfield. The two 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:56.040 hitchhikers apparently stabbed and shot Hewlier by the side of 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:59.520 the road. A passer by witnessed this murder and called 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:03.400 the police. The two assailants fled, but crashed their car, 0:03:03.840 --> 0:03:07.320 and then they were apprehended. The two were named Michael 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:11.160 bhar Carson and Susan Carson, and it was soon revealed 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:14.640 that they were responsible for all three murders, and perhaps 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:18.600 even more, they admitted to killing Karen Barnes, who was 0:03:18.639 --> 0:03:23.000 their roommate, because Susan believed Karen was a witch. After 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:26.560 killing her, they fled, eventually settling on a marijuana farm 0:03:26.639 --> 0:03:30.360 in Alder Point, California. This is where they met Clark Stevens, 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:34.760 a fellow farmer. Stephens and others believed that the Carsons 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:39.280 were anarchists who were preparing for an inevitable nuclear apocalypse. 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:43.920 After a dispute with Stevens, Michael Carson shot and killed him. 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:48.440 After fleeing once more, the Carsons left behind a manifesto. 0:03:48.720 --> 0:03:52.240 In it, they alluded to plans to assassinate President Ronald Reagan, 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:56.120 and thus they became major suspects in a secret service 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:59.880 investigation once they were captured following the murder of John 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:03.080 Hell You're on the Highway. The Carsons claim to have 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:06.360 traveled to Europe and back. They are suspects in over 0:04:06.400 --> 0:04:09.200 a dozen other unsolved murders in Europe and in the 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:13.360 United States. They were eventually convicted for all three murders 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:16.880 and are both still serving sentences of seventy five years 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:20.880 to life. Another victim in this case was Jen Carson, 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:25.760 Michael's daughter from a previous marriage. Jen's mother, Lynn, divorced 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:29.240 Michael when Jen was only three years old. Michael remarried 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:33.120 Susan the following year. Jen described her stepmother as quote 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:37.120 the wicked witch. According to Jen, Susan refused to feed 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:40.080 Jen when she came to visit. Susan would also tell 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:42.320 Jen that she was the devil, that she was going 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:45.599 to hell, and that she deserved to die. Fearing for 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:48.719 her daughter's life, Lynne packed up and took Jen to 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:51.880 live with her uncle. Only later did Jen learn of 0:04:51.920 --> 0:04:55.760 the terrible things her father had done. And so who 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:59.320 were Michael Bhare Carson and Susan Carson? What led them 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:02.800 down a murder crime spree in the nineteen eighties? And 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:05.679 how does one come to terms with being close family 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:07.239 to such a cold blooded killer? 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:15.160 So today, on Facing Evil, we are so honored to 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:19.559 have doctor Jen Carson joining us. Doctor Carson has shared 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:23.960 her inspiring journey which has taken her from being a 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:29.640 suicidal child of a homicidal parent to a mental health advocate. 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:34.880 She speaks regularly at mental health awareness and suicide prevention events, 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:39.200 and has been featured on CNN and PR. 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:42.240 The Today Show, the BBC. The list goes on and on. 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:45.600 I'm only naming a few here at Komo May Welcome 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:47.960 to Facing Evil, Doctor Jen Carson. 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:50.160 Hi, how are you. 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:52.920 I'm so excited to be with you both today. 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:55.839 We're so excited to have you, doctor Jen. 0:05:56.360 --> 0:05:58.560 I just I love the both of you, and I'm 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:00.600 so glad your family is my life. 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:03.000 So we feel the exact same way. 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:05.839 So before we get to, of course, the amazing work 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:09.000 that you do, now, can you just share a little 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:15.280 bit with us about your childhood and where you started 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:17.039 and where you came from. 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:23.520 Yeah, no, definitely. So my parents met in the counterculture 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:31.360 movement in college and were involved in war protests and 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:34.440 the music and so on. For those of you who 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:36.920 are familiar with the Chicago Seven trial, they were in 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:40.760 the audience. Wow, they were at the sly In Family 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:44.320 Stone Riot and Grant Park in Chicago. So kind of 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:46.480 like they were just kind of right in the mix 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:52.599 of things in that late nineteen sixties, and they really 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:56.720 bonded over their love of you know, history and philosophy 0:06:56.760 --> 0:06:59.880 and so on. And my father looked like he had 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:02.839 a really great career ahead of him. It was his 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:07.760 hope to become an academic professor, and my mom also 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:12.600 to be an educator. He came from an incredible middle 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:16.720 class family and there was not a traumatic background, okay, 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:18.720 and so you had a you know, kind of great 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:23.200 future ahead of him. And after I was born and 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:26.800 my mom had finished their degrees at University of Iowa 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:29.360 and went to graduate school at University of South Carolina, 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:34.920 engaged in a program to work in recently desegregated schools. 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:38.680 So kind of really rooted in civil rights, right, yeah, 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:45.080 and they were teaching and an elementary school where you know, 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:48.360 kind of all the white teachers had taken off, and 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:52.480 so they were serving there. And then soon after they 0:07:52.680 --> 0:07:57.080 moved to the Phoenix area to serve in a similar 0:07:57.120 --> 0:08:02.080 program with Native American youth. And that time my father's 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:06.680 mild min illness became more severe. His recreational drug use 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:12.440 went from also mild to severe. My mother, after almost 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:16.360 a decade, chose to divorce him, and he did then 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:20.520 receive joint custody. And then one fateful night, he went 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:24.600 to a party at a woman named Susan's house. She 0:08:24.840 --> 0:08:30.440 was a wealthy divorcee in Scottsdale, Arizona, and had had 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:33.320 a huge divorce settlement and was kind of having a 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:35.800 midlife crisis and he went to a party at her 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:40.480 house and he never left. He and Susan were together 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:44.480 and they sold all her assets from the divorce and 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:48.960 decided to go in a worldwide spiritual journey of some 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:52.880 sort of some kind of pilgrimage. But before they left, 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:56.920 they did a lot of damage. During my joint custody visits, 0:08:57.000 --> 0:09:02.240 I had some pretty horrific visits. That is when the 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:05.240 literal horror movie of my early life started. 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:08.840 That's a whole lot to unpack, Like to start from 0:09:09.400 --> 0:09:12.720 such a powerful place, you know, of doing such good 0:09:12.840 --> 0:09:17.760 and then to fall into this craziness. Would you say 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:21.559 that it's when he met Susan that changed. 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:24.520 I feel like a lot of people in this case 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:27.600 boil it down to like a Jimmy Buffett line, which is, 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:29.600 you know, some people say there's a woman to blame, 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:33.800 and so a lot of people see this case as 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:38.560 the traditional dominant and submissive and that my father is 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:43.160 submissive in this and I now know of him being 0:09:43.440 --> 0:09:49.000 violent prior definitely see some you know, evidence of treating 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:51.600 me quite well due to narcissism. You know, I look 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:54.600 like him and I was a mini himn versus you know, 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:59.040 what we would consider love. And so I just don't 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:02.680 that narrative that a lot of people have around this case. 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:07.160 When they meet she had had some long term mental 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:10.680 illness with some kind of psychosis and some hallucinations that 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:14.840 had been controlled by medication, and so in my mind, 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:19.600 he's almost using her delusions as an excuse to be violent. 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:20.160 To act out. 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:25.559 Yeah, you know, she did horrifically abuse me. I have 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:29.840 had lifelong flashes of her dunky me underwater, and there 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:33.840 was an incident where she scratched open my back and 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:36.200 there were five nail marks that looked like a where 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:38.920 wolf had come at me. That is when my mother 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:43.439 decided to take off. Was that incident. Prior to that 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:45.840 she had concerns about me being at their home. Sure, 0:10:46.320 --> 0:10:50.880 but she was absolutely petrified and essentially did a custodial 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:54.400 kidnapping at that point to protect you, to protect me. 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:56.800 And we were then in hiding for a good part 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:58.400 of five years. 0:10:58.679 --> 0:10:59.480 Oh wow, Jen. 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:02.600 Wow, And no one believed my mother. She went to 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:05.120 everyone and said, he's these people are going to kill someone. 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:06.880 They're going to kill someone. She went to police, she 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:09.439 went to attorneys, she went to her family, she went 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:12.800 to his family, She went to everyone, and they were 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:18.960 remembering the brilliant boy in college. You know, they weren't seeing. 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:20.200 They didn't want to believe. 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:23.679 You know, he'd moved across the country and a lot 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:26.680 of people in his life, you know, and so that's 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:29.760 you know, kind of understandable. But it's just she was incredibly, 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:32.720 incredibly isolated, and you know, the heroic part of the 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:36.040 story is that she remains resolute when no one on 0:11:36.080 --> 0:11:39.319 earth believes her. It's like the whole world has gas 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:42.080 lit her. Wow, I mean not one person. It's like 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:45.480 we've all been everyone. Yeah, we've all been in toxic 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:48.120 relationships where an individual, but it's like the whole world 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:52.320 has gas lit her, and she stays resolute and these 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:55.400 people will kill me and my child. We must be safe. 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:58.440 Your mother protected you without a doubt and got you 0:11:58.480 --> 0:11:59.400 out of that situation. 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:01.760 And I think that's one of the bonds I have 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:04.400 with the two of you, because you had a mother 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:09.480 who was an extraordinary individual. My mother's complicated, as all 0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:14.600 mothers are. Yes, I think we've bonded on having that 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:18.880 extraordinary mother, you know, So I think that that's powerful. 0:12:40.480 --> 0:12:42.680 I just have to tell you, I am so just 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:46.960 blown away by your honesty and your truth and your authenticity. 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:50.480 And I do know that you are so open about 0:12:51.440 --> 0:12:55.560 having suicidal ideations. If I can ask, what was the 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:59.320 catalyst for that? Was it when Susan, you know, started 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:01.920 the abuse? Was it when you were whisked away? 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:02.200 I mean? 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:04.079 Or was it all the perfect storm? 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:09.760 So definitely, you know, I had experienced extensive trauma and abuse. 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:14.280 I briefly mentioned, you know, the custody visits, but there 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:20.400 was so much more exposure to interpersonal violence, you know, trauma. 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:23.559 My mother is working two jobs. I then become that 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:24.840 feral gen. 0:13:24.840 --> 0:13:26.480 X product of a single mom. 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:30.960 Yeah, also survived some sexual abuse in childhood, and so 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:35.319 there'd been some layers in trauma. And people like to say, 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:39.240 you know that I became suicidal because my father's arrest. 0:13:39.320 --> 0:13:43.959 My father's arrest was the last straw, right, So because 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:50.680 you know, at age nine, I become the child of 0:13:51.160 --> 0:13:54.200 a serial killer. This is not something that happens to 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:57.640 me when I'm a fully formed adult, right nine, and 0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:00.880 I'm like, do I have monster genes? Do Am I 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:03.800 going to be a monster? Am I going to kill people? 0:14:04.800 --> 0:14:08.840 And so you know, I definitely perceived that this could 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:13.480 be inherited and you know, and that I would end 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:17.160 up like this. So you know, I was incredibly fearful, 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:21.080 and that's when I started the long battle with both 0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:24.520 suicidality and then Russia. You and I have talked extensively 0:14:24.520 --> 0:14:27.760 about my eating disorder. Yeah, it's so important to be 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:31.320 trauma informed and say to someone not what's wrong with you, 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:33.640 but what happened to you? Right? So you know, I 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:36.360 can buy all of those things, honestly, but it has 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:40.000 been lifelong journey to keep myself alive. 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:43.320 You said so many things that you know, obviously we 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:47.360 can relate to because of our family. And I go 0:14:47.480 --> 0:14:50.000 back and I think about myself, you know, when I 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:54.280 first found out, and I just I thought the same thing, like, 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:58.000 oh my god, I feel so hooky, so dirty, so 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:05.440 whatever inside because of George Hodell, you know, because what 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:09.160 we've been told, because of what he's been done. But 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:12.520 what I want to ask you is, so what tools 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:17.160 did you use to pull yourself out, to pull yourself up, 0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:20.920 to walk out of that pain? You know, I know 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:23.120 it's something that we all have to work on every 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:26.920 single day, but can you give our listeners an example 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:29.160 of what you did to get through it? 0:15:29.760 --> 0:15:32.600 Do you remember the Princess Diana. It was called the 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:37.080 Revenge Dress. Yeah, you know it's public that you know, 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:40.960 Charles has now been unfaithful, hurt for her for a decade, 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:44.400 and she puts on what's called the revenge dress and 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:47.480 she walks and you see her so resolute, and we 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:50.600 know she battled really severe depression needing disorder as well, 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:53.480 and you see her and she walks, she walks into 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:56.240 this event. She's wearing the supposed revenge dress. So I'll 0:15:56.280 --> 0:15:59.480 be honest with you, there were there were a lot 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:02.040 of people along the way that helped me. You know. 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:05.840 There was you know, uh my third grade teacher, Sylvia 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:07.600 Kay So I recently reunited with. 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:11.120 Yes, I saw that, thank you. 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:15.640 There's you know girl Scouts. First and foremost always is 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:19.480 you know, my my stepfather of thirty nine years. But 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:22.760 unfortunately I me, to be honest with you, there were 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:25.840 a lot of family members that were like, you know, 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:28.720 pretty much like poor Jenny, this poor Jenny that they 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:30.840 would say that, and they would say, you know, essentially 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:34.200 I was going to end up a drug addict and homeless, 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:36.440 and you know, they just thought I was going to 0:16:36.520 --> 0:16:39.280 not amount to anything. And so, to be perfectly honest 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:44.960 with you, showing them success, I was that walking revenge 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:48.440 dress for a while and I would just go and 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:55.400 some of these like negative, cruel, toxic relatives are are gone, right, 0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:58.680 and so here I am. I you know, I got 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:02.160 a doctorate. They always made fun of my weight of 0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:05.200 now you know, have the weight kind of under control, 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:08.800 you know, but it's like it's interesting because just now 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:13.320 in midlife I've been shedding that over a while. Yeah, 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:15.959 and I've been living a more purpose driven life. But 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:18.320 I would say for a good chunk of my journey, 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:22.120 I was just like resolute to just just show them. 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:23.399 To prove them all wrong. 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:27.359 Correct, prove them all wrong. But now in this second 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:30.960 part of my life, I really want to be driven 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:35.160 by other things. Yeah, Now, I would say that would 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:39.439 be what was driving me, maybe personally, definitely in my work, 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:41.760 you know, as you know I'm a suicide hotline manager. 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:47.080 I mean that is absolutely rooted in that help works. 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:52.160 I received help, and so I want to utilize these 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:54.640 gifts I have. But definitely there's there. I think there's 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:57.000 part of me that's still holding on to that, and 0:17:57.040 --> 0:17:59.000 I would really like to see myself as I move 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:01.240 forward to let that go and not be the walking 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:02.080 revenge dress. 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:04.400 Right, just walk in your own power. 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:09.400 Just seek joy and light and realize the best revenge 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:11.159 is to live well, but also just to let go 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:13.919 of revenge, like that's not a thing. I've actually started 0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:18.000 meeting with an expert, one of the world's experts on forgiveness. 0:18:18.040 --> 0:18:21.320 Beautiful, can you just tell us, because you did say 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:24.000 earlier that you know you have a history with our family. 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:27.640 So can you tell our listeners how you actually connected 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:29.399 with our great uncle Steve. 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:34.240 Yeah. So I wrote in the newspaper that the child 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:37.320 of a prominent serial killer was on suicide watch in 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:40.960 a hospital after their parent was arrested. And I sat 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:44.600 down and I wrote that personal letter, and my best 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:48.200 friend said, you have to publish this. This is really powerful. 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:53.199 So it was published in Reclare magazine, which was a 0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:57.480 fashion magazine. Yeah, there was like a French, a Dutch, 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:00.720 you know, German issue, Spanish issue. So it was in 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:07.159 all of those issues. And I was getting contacts from 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:10.960 people all over the world and they were emailing Marie 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:14.280 clareen as being emailed to me. And this this was 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:16.359 prior to social media. 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:18.960 Yeah, two thousand and seven, right, that's when you publicly 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:21.080 came out as the child of a serial killer. 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:25.159 And I did so prior to other prominent children of 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:29.399 serial killers that now speak publicly. And so I was 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:31.800 one of the I believe I was the first person. 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:35.960 I was the first to go public. So I needed 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:40.880 some sort of support to navigate this. And then after 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:45.520 I read your uncle's book, we became pen pals and 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:50.320 at the time I was working as a special education 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:54.440 school counselor, and I think he was just retiring from 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:59.159 law enforcement. And this was like seventeen years ago that 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:04.200 we started to be penn and he like just I 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:08.760 am endlessly blown away of the kindness of strangers. And 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:12.440 you know, he has been kind and throughout the years 0:20:13.080 --> 0:20:16.119 for seventeen years, I have randomly reached out for him, 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:19.720 to him for help off and on, and he has 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:22.879 always provided it. And he's just been this kind of 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:24.320 like long distance friend. 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:25.120 Jen. 0:20:25.200 --> 0:20:28.000 I didn't actually meet our great uncle Steve until five 0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:29.760 minutes before we were on The Doctor Phil Show in 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:30.560 twenty nineteen. 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:33.360 I have an older relationship with him than you do. 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:36.760 Yes, you do, which I think is hysterical. 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:41.000 Quite amazing. He's quite amazing. He's really something. 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:46.080 You are going above and beyond to pay it forward 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:50.119 to others, but also to prove to yourself that you 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:54.280 are worthy, and that in itself is huge. It's a 0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:56.960 lesson for all of us, you know, to learn from. 0:20:57.320 --> 0:21:00.960 I so appreciate that you brought power into the space 0:21:01.080 --> 0:21:04.760 because Yvetam so often asked why I have not changed 0:21:04.800 --> 0:21:08.800 my last name. You know, my father, Michael bar Carson 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:12.320 did not own that last name, right, there were ancestors 0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:15.560 before having that last name, and you know, and so 0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:19.480 I have chosen to keep my name. And you know, 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:23.000 I'm asked so many kind of weird questions of you know, 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:27.840 do I feel guilty? No, I didn't harm anyone, and 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:32.439 I was eight. So my father's parents were extraordinary people. 0:21:32.680 --> 0:21:40.280 My grandmother, Jewish American woman, was threatened for teaching African 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:45.119 American literature in the sixties in Tulsa. She was extraordinary. 0:21:45.200 --> 0:21:45.400 Wow. 0:21:45.440 --> 0:21:45.840 Wow. 0:21:46.160 --> 0:21:50.439 She was a World War two veteran. Her husband, my grandfather, 0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:54.080 was a World War two veteran. He was a college 0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:58.480 educated engineer and worked for the Department of Energy and 0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:01.760 was an energy advisor in the White House. These were 0:22:01.800 --> 0:22:06.080 incredible people. And so I think that people can't wrap 0:22:06.119 --> 0:22:09.679 their head around nuance that you can be good people 0:22:09.760 --> 0:22:13.160 and your child can be violent, yeah, or you know, 0:22:13.440 --> 0:22:17.200 you can have a parent that's a literal human predator. 0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:19.960 I mean, my father is a monster. You know, when 0:22:19.960 --> 0:22:23.359 you read about vampires and were wolves and what have you, 0:22:24.240 --> 0:22:26.960 if you read the history of these origins, there would 0:22:27.000 --> 0:22:29.480 be a village in Hungary and there would be a 0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:33.439 mutilated body and they didn't know that there were human predators, 0:22:34.000 --> 0:22:37.200 so we invented the were wolves and the vampire. 0:22:37.240 --> 0:22:37.879 You knows. 0:22:38.040 --> 0:22:43.120 So my parent is a literal monster and I'm. 0:22:42.960 --> 0:22:46.360 Flawed are but I am. 0:22:46.560 --> 0:22:48.760 Certainly not a monster, and I'm a good and kind person. 0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:53.520 So people just can't wrap their head around these things. 0:22:53.600 --> 0:22:57.679 They want things to be very simplistic, and life isn't simplistic. 0:22:58.160 --> 0:23:00.480 That was a huge question, I'm sure sure to a 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:03.920 lot of people. Why didn't she change her name? And 0:23:04.520 --> 0:23:06.840 you just hit the nail on the coffin. 0:23:07.560 --> 0:23:10.800 There's a couple questions people always ask me, and they 0:23:10.800 --> 0:23:12.960 want these reallys that you know, why did your father 0:23:13.119 --> 0:23:17.840 become violent? Was it his wife? Was it? Was it drugs? 0:23:18.040 --> 0:23:22.720 Was it mental illness? And I'm like it was a titanic. 0:23:22.720 --> 0:23:24.359 Yeah, like a hundred. 0:23:24.240 --> 0:23:28.359 Factors that created this situation. And so they want me 0:23:28.680 --> 0:23:31.919 to say, you know, it was his evil second wife 0:23:31.960 --> 0:23:35.560 and she hexts on him and you know whatever, and 0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:38.439 you know, or was this and you know he was 0:23:38.560 --> 0:23:43.080 doing extraordinary amounts of LSD and I think there was 0:23:43.119 --> 0:23:48.080 a drug in psychosis. But also people to mental ill 0:23:48.840 --> 0:23:52.080 are more likely to be victims of violence and perpetrate violence, 0:23:52.240 --> 0:23:55.439 and most people with types of psychosis are kind. So 0:23:55.520 --> 0:23:59.040 I also think he's a sociopath or psychopath that doesn't 0:23:59.080 --> 0:24:02.679 watch him. Also think it was the toxic relationship with 0:24:02.720 --> 0:24:04.600 the second wife. You know, I think it's a number 0:24:04.640 --> 0:24:07.000 of things. But people want me to have a single 0:24:07.040 --> 0:24:10.920 answer for all these questions and this is not multiple choice. 0:24:11.160 --> 0:24:14.520 I won't ask aby's your d Yeah, and how dare 0:24:14.520 --> 0:24:15.280 they ask you that? 0:24:15.720 --> 0:24:19.400 Right? Again, it's it's this concept that I should be 0:24:19.640 --> 0:24:25.160 sorry for this or bear some guilt. And I recently 0:24:25.320 --> 0:24:28.600 did an interview with People magazine and I got this 0:24:28.720 --> 0:24:31.760 backlash of she's trying to sell a book and I 0:24:31.800 --> 0:24:35.679