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Speaker 2: Hi, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm vet Gente
Speaker 2: Lay and.
Speaker 3: I'm Rosha Peccerreiro. Today we're going to do things a
Speaker 3: little bit differently on Facing Evil because we are going
Speaker 3: to have a guest on that is somewhat of a.
Speaker 4: Victim of this case.
Speaker 3: She doesn't like to call herself a victim, but you're
Speaker 3: going to understand why once we get into the discussion.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's going to be a mic drop at
Speaker 2: the very end, so wait for that. But the case
Speaker 2: that we're talking about is the San Francisco witch killings
Speaker 2: that place between nineteen eighty one and nineteen eighty three.
Speaker 2: The two killers were Michael Bear Carson and Susan Carson,
Speaker 2: and they murdered at least three people. And our guest
Speaker 2: today is doctor Jen Carson. She is Michael Carson's daughter.
Speaker 3: Yes, that's right, and doctor Jen Carson has an incredible
Speaker 3: story of resilience and survival, and she's one of the
Speaker 3: most inspiring humans I have the pleasure of knowing. I'm
Speaker 3: so honored to have her here with us today. I'm
Speaker 3: facing evil, but first our producer Trevor is going to
Speaker 3: walk us through today's case.
Speaker 1: The couple labeled the San Francisco Witch Killers Michael Bear
Speaker 1: Carson and his second wife Susan smiling is the camera rule.
Speaker 5: They're wicked. They're just wicked. He ran into the Carsons
Speaker 5: that were traveling through and they were killing witches, and
Speaker 5: she said that Clark was a witch and they therefore
Speaker 5: killed him.
Speaker 6: I remember thinking, I'm the daughter of the devil.
Speaker 1: The San Francisco witch killings were a series of connected
Speaker 1: murders that took place between nineteen eighty one and nineteen
Speaker 1: eighty three. The first victim was twenty three year old
Speaker 1: Karen Barnes, who was found dead in her apartment in
Speaker 1: March of nineteen eighty one. She had been stabbed thirteen times,
Speaker 1: wrapped in a blanket and hidden inside the basement. Then,
Speaker 1: in May of nineteen eighty two, the burnt remains of
Speaker 1: twenty six year old Clark Stephens were found in Humboldt County, California.
Speaker 1: Stephens had been shot to death before his body was burned. Finally,
Speaker 1: in January of nineteen eighty three, thirty year old John
Speaker 1: Charles Hallier picked up two hitchhikers near Bakersfield. The two
Speaker 1: hitchhikers apparently stabbed and shot Hewlier by the side of
Speaker 1: the road. A passer by witnessed this murder and called
Speaker 1: the police. The two assailants fled, but crashed their car,
Speaker 1: and then they were apprehended. The two were named Michael
Speaker 1: bhar Carson and Susan Carson, and it was soon revealed
Speaker 1: that they were responsible for all three murders, and perhaps
Speaker 1: even more, they admitted to killing Karen Barnes, who was
Speaker 1: their roommate, because Susan believed Karen was a witch. After
Speaker 1: killing her, they fled, eventually settling on a marijuana farm
Speaker 1: in Alder Point, California. This is where they met Clark Stevens,
Speaker 1: a fellow farmer. Stephens and others believed that the Carsons
Speaker 1: were anarchists who were preparing for an inevitable nuclear apocalypse.
Speaker 1: After a dispute with Stevens, Michael Carson shot and killed him.
Speaker 1: After fleeing once more, the Carsons left behind a manifesto.
Speaker 1: In it, they alluded to plans to assassinate President Ronald Reagan,
Speaker 1: and thus they became major suspects in a secret service
Speaker 1: investigation once they were captured following the murder of John
Speaker 1: Hell You're on the Highway. The Carsons claim to have
Speaker 1: traveled to Europe and back. They are suspects in over
Speaker 1: a dozen other unsolved murders in Europe and in the
Speaker 1: United States. They were eventually convicted for all three murders
Speaker 1: and are both still serving sentences of seventy five years
Speaker 1: to life. Another victim in this case was Jen Carson,
Speaker 1: Michael's daughter from a previous marriage. Jen's mother, Lynn, divorced
Speaker 1: Michael when Jen was only three years old. Michael remarried
Speaker 1: Susan the following year. Jen described her stepmother as quote
Speaker 1: the wicked witch. According to Jen, Susan refused to feed
Speaker 1: Jen when she came to visit. Susan would also tell
Speaker 1: Jen that she was the devil, that she was going
Speaker 1: to hell, and that she deserved to die. Fearing for
Speaker 1: her daughter's life, Lynne packed up and took Jen to
Speaker 1: live with her uncle. Only later did Jen learn of
Speaker 1: the terrible things her father had done. And so who
Speaker 1: were Michael Bhare Carson and Susan Carson? What led them
Speaker 1: down a murder crime spree in the nineteen eighties? And
Speaker 1: how does one come to terms with being close family
Speaker 1: to such a cold blooded killer?
Speaker 3: So today, on Facing Evil, we are so honored to
Speaker 3: have doctor Jen Carson joining us. Doctor Carson has shared
Speaker 3: her inspiring journey which has taken her from being a
Speaker 3: suicidal child of a homicidal parent to a mental health advocate.
Speaker 3: She speaks regularly at mental health awareness and suicide prevention events,
Speaker 3: and has been featured on CNN and PR.
Speaker 4: The Today Show, the BBC. The list goes on and on.
Speaker 3: I'm only naming a few here at Komo May Welcome
Speaker 3: to Facing Evil, Doctor Jen Carson.
Speaker 2: Hi, how are you.
Speaker 6: I'm so excited to be with you both today.
Speaker 2: We're so excited to have you, doctor Jen.
Speaker 6: I just I love the both of you, and I'm
Speaker 6: so glad your family is my life.
Speaker 4: So we feel the exact same way.
Speaker 3: So before we get to, of course, the amazing work
Speaker 3: that you do, now, can you just share a little
Speaker 3: bit with us about your childhood and where you started
Speaker 3: and where you came from.
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, definitely. So my parents met in the counterculture
Speaker 6: movement in college and were involved in war protests and
Speaker 6: the music and so on. For those of you who
Speaker 6: are familiar with the Chicago Seven trial, they were in
Speaker 6: the audience. Wow, they were at the sly In Family
Speaker 6: Stone Riot and Grant Park in Chicago. So kind of
Speaker 6: like they were just kind of right in the mix
Speaker 6: of things in that late nineteen sixties, and they really
Speaker 6: bonded over their love of you know, history and philosophy
Speaker 6: and so on. And my father looked like he had
Speaker 6: a really great career ahead of him. It was his
Speaker 6: hope to become an academic professor, and my mom also
Speaker 6: to be an educator. He came from an incredible middle
Speaker 6: class family and there was not a traumatic background, okay,
Speaker 6: and so you had a you know, kind of great
Speaker 6: future ahead of him. And after I was born and
Speaker 6: my mom had finished their degrees at University of Iowa
Speaker 6: and went to graduate school at University of South Carolina,
Speaker 6: engaged in a program to work in recently desegregated schools.
Speaker 6: So kind of really rooted in civil rights, right, yeah,
Speaker 6: and they were teaching and an elementary school where you know,
Speaker 6: kind of all the white teachers had taken off, and
Speaker 6: so they were serving there. And then soon after they
Speaker 6: moved to the Phoenix area to serve in a similar
Speaker 6: program with Native American youth. And that time my father's
Speaker 6: mild min illness became more severe. His recreational drug use
Speaker 6: went from also mild to severe. My mother, after almost
Speaker 6: a decade, chose to divorce him, and he did then
Speaker 6: receive joint custody. And then one fateful night, he went
Speaker 6: to a party at a woman named Susan's house. She
Speaker 6: was a wealthy divorcee in Scottsdale, Arizona, and had had
Speaker 6: a huge divorce settlement and was kind of having a
Speaker 6: midlife crisis and he went to a party at her
Speaker 6: house and he never left. He and Susan were together
Speaker 6: and they sold all her assets from the divorce and
Speaker 6: decided to go in a worldwide spiritual journey of some
Speaker 6: sort of some kind of pilgrimage. But before they left,
Speaker 6: they did a lot of damage. During my joint custody visits,
Speaker 6: I had some pretty horrific visits. That is when the
Speaker 6: literal horror movie of my early life started.
Speaker 2: That's a whole lot to unpack, Like to start from
Speaker 2: such a powerful place, you know, of doing such good
Speaker 2: and then to fall into this craziness. Would you say
Speaker 2: that it's when he met Susan that changed.
Speaker 6: I feel like a lot of people in this case
Speaker 6: boil it down to like a Jimmy Buffett line, which is,
Speaker 6: you know, some people say there's a woman to blame,
Speaker 6: and so a lot of people see this case as
Speaker 6: the traditional dominant and submissive and that my father is
Speaker 6: submissive in this and I now know of him being
Speaker 6: violent prior definitely see some you know, evidence of treating
Speaker 6: me quite well due to narcissism. You know, I look
Speaker 6: like him and I was a mini himn versus you know,
Speaker 6: what we would consider love. And so I just don't
Speaker 6: that narrative that a lot of people have around this case.
Speaker 6: When they meet she had had some long term mental
Speaker 6: illness with some kind of psychosis and some hallucinations that
Speaker 6: had been controlled by medication, and so in my mind,
Speaker 6: he's almost using her delusions as an excuse to be violent.
Speaker 4: To act out.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, she did horrifically abuse me. I have
Speaker 6: had lifelong flashes of her dunky me underwater, and there
Speaker 6: was an incident where she scratched open my back and
Speaker 6: there were five nail marks that looked like a where
Speaker 6: wolf had come at me. That is when my mother
Speaker 6: decided to take off. Was that incident. Prior to that
Speaker 6: she had concerns about me being at their home. Sure,
Speaker 6: but she was absolutely petrified and essentially did a custodial
Speaker 6: kidnapping at that point to protect you, to protect me.
Speaker 6: And we were then in hiding for a good part
Speaker 6: of five years.
Speaker 4: Oh wow, Jen.
Speaker 6: Wow, And no one believed my mother. She went to
Speaker 6: everyone and said, he's these people are going to kill someone.
Speaker 6: They're going to kill someone. She went to police, she
Speaker 6: went to attorneys, she went to her family, she went
Speaker 6: to his family, She went to everyone, and they were
Speaker 6: remembering the brilliant boy in college. You know, they weren't seeing.
Speaker 4: They didn't want to believe.
Speaker 6: You know, he'd moved across the country and a lot
Speaker 6: of people in his life, you know, and so that's
Speaker 6: you know, kind of understandable. But it's just she was incredibly,
Speaker 6: incredibly isolated, and you know, the heroic part of the
Speaker 6: story is that she remains resolute when no one on
Speaker 6: earth believes her. It's like the whole world has gas
Speaker 6: lit her. Wow, I mean not one person. It's like
Speaker 6: we've all been everyone. Yeah, we've all been in toxic
Speaker 6: relationships where an individual, but it's like the whole world
Speaker 6: has gas lit her, and she stays resolute and these
Speaker 6: people will kill me and my child. We must be safe.
Speaker 2: Your mother protected you without a doubt and got you
Speaker 2: out of that situation.
Speaker 6: And I think that's one of the bonds I have
Speaker 6: with the two of you, because you had a mother
Speaker 6: who was an extraordinary individual. My mother's complicated, as all
Speaker 6: mothers are. Yes, I think we've bonded on having that
Speaker 6: extraordinary mother, you know, So I think that that's powerful.
Speaker 3: I just have to tell you, I am so just
Speaker 3: blown away by your honesty and your truth and your authenticity.
Speaker 3: And I do know that you are so open about
Speaker 3: having suicidal ideations. If I can ask, what was the
Speaker 3: catalyst for that? Was it when Susan, you know, started
Speaker 3: the abuse? Was it when you were whisked away?
Speaker 6: I mean?
Speaker 4: Or was it all the perfect storm?
Speaker 6: So definitely, you know, I had experienced extensive trauma and abuse.
Speaker 6: I briefly mentioned, you know, the custody visits, but there
Speaker 6: was so much more exposure to interpersonal violence, you know, trauma.
Speaker 6: My mother is working two jobs. I then become that
Speaker 6: feral gen.
Speaker 4: X product of a single mom.
Speaker 6: Yeah, also survived some sexual abuse in childhood, and so
Speaker 6: there'd been some layers in trauma. And people like to say,
Speaker 6: you know that I became suicidal because my father's arrest.
Speaker 6: My father's arrest was the last straw, right, So because
Speaker 6: you know, at age nine, I become the child of
Speaker 6: a serial killer. This is not something that happens to
Speaker 6: me when I'm a fully formed adult, right nine, and
Speaker 6: I'm like, do I have monster genes? Do Am I
Speaker 6: going to be a monster? Am I going to kill people?
Speaker 6: And so you know, I definitely perceived that this could
Speaker 6: be inherited and you know, and that I would end
Speaker 6: up like this. So you know, I was incredibly fearful,
Speaker 6: and that's when I started the long battle with both
Speaker 6: suicidality and then Russia. You and I have talked extensively
Speaker 6: about my eating disorder. Yeah, it's so important to be
Speaker 6: trauma informed and say to someone not what's wrong with you,
Speaker 6: but what happened to you? Right? So you know, I
Speaker 6: can buy all of those things, honestly, but it has
Speaker 6: been lifelong journey to keep myself alive.
Speaker 2: You said so many things that you know, obviously we
Speaker 2: can relate to because of our family. And I go
Speaker 2: back and I think about myself, you know, when I
Speaker 2: first found out, and I just I thought the same thing, like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, I feel so hooky, so dirty, so
Speaker 2: whatever inside because of George Hodell, you know, because what
Speaker 2: we've been told, because of what he's been done. But
Speaker 2: what I want to ask you is, so what tools
Speaker 2: did you use to pull yourself out, to pull yourself up,
Speaker 2: to walk out of that pain? You know, I know
Speaker 2: it's something that we all have to work on every
Speaker 2: single day, but can you give our listeners an example
Speaker 2: of what you did to get through it?
Speaker 6: Do you remember the Princess Diana. It was called the
Speaker 6: Revenge Dress. Yeah, you know it's public that you know,
Speaker 6: Charles has now been unfaithful, hurt for her for a decade,
Speaker 6: and she puts on what's called the revenge dress and
Speaker 6: she walks and you see her so resolute, and we
Speaker 6: know she battled really severe depression needing disorder as well,
Speaker 6: and you see her and she walks, she walks into
Speaker 6: this event. She's wearing the supposed revenge dress. So I'll
Speaker 6: be honest with you, there were there were a lot
Speaker 6: of people along the way that helped me. You know.
Speaker 6: There was you know, uh my third grade teacher, Sylvia
Speaker 6: Kay So I recently reunited with.
Speaker 2: Yes, I saw that, thank you.
Speaker 6: There's you know girl Scouts. First and foremost always is
Speaker 6: you know, my my stepfather of thirty nine years. But
Speaker 6: unfortunately I me, to be honest with you, there were
Speaker 6: a lot of family members that were like, you know,
Speaker 6: pretty much like poor Jenny, this poor Jenny that they
Speaker 6: would say that, and they would say, you know, essentially
Speaker 6: I was going to end up a drug addict and homeless,
Speaker 6: and you know, they just thought I was going to
Speaker 6: not amount to anything. And so, to be perfectly honest
Speaker 6: with you, showing them success, I was that walking revenge
Speaker 6: dress for a while and I would just go and
Speaker 6: some of these like negative, cruel, toxic relatives are are gone, right,
Speaker 6: and so here I am. I you know, I got
Speaker 6: a doctorate. They always made fun of my weight of
Speaker 6: now you know, have the weight kind of under control,
Speaker 6: you know, but it's like it's interesting because just now
Speaker 6: in midlife I've been shedding that over a while. Yeah,
Speaker 6: and I've been living a more purpose driven life. But
Speaker 6: I would say for a good chunk of my journey,
Speaker 6: I was just like resolute to just just show them.
Speaker 2: To prove them all wrong.
Speaker 6: Correct, prove them all wrong. But now in this second
Speaker 6: part of my life, I really want to be driven
Speaker 6: by other things. Yeah, Now, I would say that would
Speaker 6: be what was driving me, maybe personally, definitely in my work,
Speaker 6: you know, as you know I'm a suicide hotline manager.
Speaker 6: I mean that is absolutely rooted in that help works.
Speaker 6: I received help, and so I want to utilize these
Speaker 6: gifts I have. But definitely there's there. I think there's
Speaker 6: part of me that's still holding on to that, and
Speaker 6: I would really like to see myself as I move
Speaker 6: forward to let that go and not be the walking
Speaker 6: revenge dress.
Speaker 2: Right, just walk in your own power.
Speaker 6: Just seek joy and light and realize the best revenge
Speaker 6: is to live well, but also just to let go
Speaker 6: of revenge, like that's not a thing. I've actually started
Speaker 6: meeting with an expert, one of the world's experts on forgiveness.
Speaker 2: Beautiful, can you just tell us, because you did say
Speaker 2: earlier that you know you have a history with our family.
Speaker 2: So can you tell our listeners how you actually connected
Speaker 2: with our great uncle Steve.
Speaker 6: Yeah. So I wrote in the newspaper that the child
Speaker 6: of a prominent serial killer was on suicide watch in
Speaker 6: a hospital after their parent was arrested. And I sat
Speaker 6: down and I wrote that personal letter, and my best
Speaker 6: friend said, you have to publish this. This is really powerful.
Speaker 6: So it was published in Reclare magazine, which was a
Speaker 6: fashion magazine. Yeah, there was like a French, a Dutch,
Speaker 6: you know, German issue, Spanish issue. So it was in
Speaker 6: all of those issues. And I was getting contacts from
Speaker 6: people all over the world and they were emailing Marie
Speaker 6: clareen as being emailed to me. And this this was
Speaker 6: prior to social media.
Speaker 3: Yeah, two thousand and seven, right, that's when you publicly
Speaker 3: came out as the child of a serial killer.
Speaker 6: And I did so prior to other prominent children of
Speaker 6: serial killers that now speak publicly. And so I was
Speaker 6: one of the I believe I was the first person.
Speaker 6: I was the first to go public. So I needed
Speaker 6: some sort of support to navigate this. And then after
Speaker 6: I read your uncle's book, we became pen pals and
Speaker 6: at the time I was working as a special education
Speaker 6: school counselor, and I think he was just retiring from
Speaker 6: law enforcement. And this was like seventeen years ago that
Speaker 6: we started to be penn and he like just I
Speaker 6: am endlessly blown away of the kindness of strangers. And
Speaker 6: you know, he has been kind and throughout the years
Speaker 6: for seventeen years, I have randomly reached out for him,
Speaker 6: to him for help off and on, and he has
Speaker 6: always provided it. And he's just been this kind of
Speaker 6: like long distance friend.
Speaker 4: Jen.
Speaker 3: I didn't actually meet our great uncle Steve until five
Speaker 3: minutes before we were on The Doctor Phil Show in
Speaker 3: twenty nineteen.
Speaker 6: I have an older relationship with him than you do.
Speaker 4: Yes, you do, which I think is hysterical.
Speaker 6: Quite amazing. He's quite amazing. He's really something.
Speaker 2: You are going above and beyond to pay it forward
Speaker 2: to others, but also to prove to yourself that you
Speaker 2: are worthy, and that in itself is huge. It's a
Speaker 2: lesson for all of us, you know, to learn from.
Speaker 6: I so appreciate that you brought power into the space
Speaker 6: because Yvetam so often asked why I have not changed
Speaker 6: my last name. You know, my father, Michael bar Carson
Speaker 6: did not own that last name, right, there were ancestors
Speaker 6: before having that last name, and you know, and so
Speaker 6: I have chosen to keep my name. And you know,
Speaker 6: I'm asked so many kind of weird questions of you know,
Speaker 6: do I feel guilty? No, I didn't harm anyone, and
Speaker 6: I was eight. So my father's parents were extraordinary people.
Speaker 6: My grandmother, Jewish American woman, was threatened for teaching African
Speaker 6: American literature in the sixties in Tulsa. She was extraordinary.
Speaker 5: Wow.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 6: She was a World War two veteran. Her husband, my grandfather,
Speaker 6: was a World War two veteran. He was a college
Speaker 6: educated engineer and worked for the Department of Energy and
Speaker 6: was an energy advisor in the White House. These were
Speaker 6: incredible people. And so I think that people can't wrap
Speaker 6: their head around nuance that you can be good people
Speaker 6: and your child can be violent, yeah, or you know,
Speaker 6: you can have a parent that's a literal human predator.
Speaker 6: I mean, my father is a monster. You know, when
Speaker 6: you read about vampires and were wolves and what have you,
Speaker 6: if you read the history of these origins, there would
Speaker 6: be a village in Hungary and there would be a
Speaker 6: mutilated body and they didn't know that there were human predators,
Speaker 6: so we invented the were wolves and the vampire.
Speaker 2: You knows.
Speaker 6: So my parent is a literal monster and I'm.
Speaker 4: Flawed are but I am.
Speaker 6: Certainly not a monster, and I'm a good and kind person.
Speaker 6: So people just can't wrap their head around these things.
Speaker 6: They want things to be very simplistic, and life isn't simplistic.
Speaker 2: That was a huge question, I'm sure sure to a
Speaker 2: lot of people. Why didn't she change her name? And
Speaker 2: you just hit the nail on the coffin.
Speaker 6: There's a couple questions people always ask me, and they
Speaker 6: want these reallys that you know, why did your father
Speaker 6: become violent? Was it his wife? Was it? Was it drugs?
Speaker 6: Was it mental illness? And I'm like it was a titanic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, like a hundred.
Speaker 6: Factors that created this situation. And so they want me
Speaker 6: to say, you know, it was his evil second wife
Speaker 6: and she hexts on him and you know whatever, and
Speaker 6: you know, or was this and you know he was
Speaker 6: doing extraordinary amounts of LSD and I think there was
Speaker 6: a drug in psychosis. But also people to mental ill
Speaker 6: are more likely to be victims of violence and perpetrate violence,
Speaker 6: and most people with types of psychosis are kind. So
Speaker 6: I also think he's a sociopath or psychopath that doesn't
Speaker 6: watch him. Also think it was the toxic relationship with
Speaker 6: the second wife. You know, I think it's a number
Speaker 6: of things. But people want me to have a single
Speaker 6: answer for all these questions and this is not multiple choice.
Speaker 4: I won't ask aby's your d Yeah, and how dare
Speaker 4: they ask you that?
Speaker 6: Right? Again, it's it's this concept that I should be
Speaker 6: sorry for this or bear some guilt. And I recently
Speaker 6: did an interview with People magazine and I got this
Speaker 6: backlash of she's trying to sell a book and I
Speaker 6: was like, could you link me to my book on Amazon?
Speaker 6: Because I didn't know existed. I don't have a book.
Speaker 6: I haven't written a book. And you know, they thought
Speaker 6: I made all this money, and I said, let me
Speaker 6: tell you what People magazine gave me. Because new sources
Speaker 6: don't pay people, I told them i'd had I had
Speaker 6: a big weight loss. They offered to load me a
Speaker 6: couple dresses, and they gave me a sandwich.
Speaker 3: Oh, yay, sandwich. Hey that's big spender there.
Speaker 6: Yes, And so that was it. So people want to say,
Speaker 6: is she a victim or is she a villain. They
Speaker 6: also want to say she's the offender's daughter, so she's
Speaker 6: either evil and violent or she's trying to make money
Speaker 6: off this.
Speaker 4: They do it to us too. Yeah, they want to
Speaker 4: put you in a box.
Speaker 6: Yeah. They need this to be black and white.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And the thing about it is people always want
Speaker 2: to create their own narrative in their head without all
Speaker 2: the facts.
Speaker 3: You are here this week in Portland, and you made
Speaker 3: this beautiful you know stone for you know, one of
Speaker 3: your father's you know, he's accused of killing this beautiful soul.
Speaker 4: Please if you could share that story.
Speaker 6: Yeah, definitely. So I have several interesting things happen. You know,
Speaker 6: as I'm speaking publicly about being the former suicidal child
Speaker 6: of a homicidal parent, is I have people who contact
Speaker 6: I have two sets of people contact me. One is
Speaker 6: people who tell me I'm the child of a pedophile,
Speaker 6: I'm the child of a serial rapist, I'm the child
Speaker 6: of this or that, and you know I'm able to
Speaker 6: love on them and give them some support and navigate.
Speaker 6: The other type of people who contact me are people
Speaker 6: who say, I encountered your father and stepmother and they
Speaker 6: almost killed me. Okay, and these people will tell me
Speaker 6: the story and it matches up.
Speaker 4: The timelines the thing.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, it matches the timeline. And so there are
Speaker 6: so many people that they tell me they almost killed.
Speaker 6: And then you know, one of the contacts I've gotten
Speaker 6: over the years is a ton of people from Portland
Speaker 6: saying I was friends with Andrea Maren. I knew your
Speaker 6: father while he was working at the Benson Hotel in Portland.
Speaker 6: I didn't know that, Jen, I didn't know you worked
Speaker 6: at the Benson.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I moved here.
Speaker 3: I moved here from HONOLULUAI, and I worked.
Speaker 4: Granted, this is I mean, I'm only this is after yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6: I know, but you worked at the same hotel. I
Speaker 6: mean this is I need the listeners to know this.
Speaker 6: Like every time that Rashia and I talk, we have
Speaker 6: some intersection and and I have a mic drop at
Speaker 6: the end of this episode that okay, like I think
Speaker 6: both Russia and Vett are going to like literally like
Speaker 6: just be speechless.
Speaker 4: Oh my godh my god.
Speaker 6: So while he was working at the Benson Hotel in Portland.
Speaker 6: So so initially my father and stepmother were in they
Speaker 6: emigrated to Israel. My father had gotten birth right citizenship.
Speaker 6: That's where an individual who is Sephardic or as Kanasi Jewish,
Speaker 6: you know whatever, can acquire citizenship in Israel. So they
Speaker 6: were in Israel and then they traveled all over Europe
Speaker 6: and there are multiple cold cases in Europe and specifically
Speaker 6: in Britain that interpool was suspected of committeing. And I've
Speaker 6: offered my DNA to the European entities who want to
Speaker 6: close those cases.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 6: So they are then in the United States and primarily
Speaker 6: they're growing marijuana on a farm in Humboldt, and then
Speaker 6: they're in San Francisco, Portland, Eugene, and they would harvest
Speaker 6: and get a cut of the weed at the farm,
Speaker 6: and then they were kind of on this circuit between
Speaker 6: nineteen seventy nine and nineteen eighty three where they were selling.
Speaker 6: They were primarily spending most of their time in San Francisco, Eugene,
Speaker 6: between northern California and Oregon, Eugene, Portland.
Speaker 4: On the West coast.
Speaker 6: Yeah, over the years, a lot of people have contacted
Speaker 6: me and they've said, we were acquainted with Michael Baron,
Speaker 6: Susan Carson, who were you know, selling weed and at
Speaker 6: Portland State University and there was a beautiful young woman
Speaker 6: who was murdered and they were friends with her. Her
Speaker 6: name was Andrew Maren. Her father was doctor Oscar Maren,
Speaker 6: world renowned neuroscience scientists and neurosurgeon who was at a
Speaker 6: Good Samaritan in Portland and with University of Oregon. She
Speaker 6: was murdered in the same way as my father's known victim,
Speaker 6: Karen Barnes in San Francisco. And many people believe that
Speaker 6: my father and stepmother murdered her, and they're just everyone
Speaker 6: knows it. Everyone believes it, and there's just not physical evidence.
Speaker 6: So what I did yesterday is I tapped into my
Speaker 6: love for gen Z. Like my nieces and nephews are
Speaker 6: just so fun and so I love gen Z, right, Yeah,
Speaker 6: I just love it. I love my students of that age.
Speaker 6: I just have no one to love for the generation.
Speaker 6: So I decided what I was going to do is
Speaker 6: just tap into that. I did lay a stone the
Speaker 6: sixteen hundred block of Southwest Park Avenue yesterday where Andrew
Speaker 6: Marrin was murdered. I laid a stone asking for any tips.
Speaker 6: And so what I'm asking is that the Portland State
Speaker 6: University students just kick in, and I need you to
Speaker 6: go talk to elders. So if you know an elder
Speaker 6: who is around forty years ago, so will you know
Speaker 6: individuals age sixty probably eighty. If you know an elder,
Speaker 6: you know a shop owner in the area or faculty,
Speaker 6: just go talk to them, see if you can get
Speaker 6: anything that we can connect the dots to. And then
Speaker 6: you can hit me up and via social media at
Speaker 6: doctor Jen Carson. So it's it's it's my hope that
Speaker 6: we can do that. And then if you're one of
Speaker 6: those people where your mom or dad or aunt and
Speaker 6: uncle had talked about encountering these people, you can hit
Speaker 6: me up there. I can help you navigate to get
Speaker 6: that to the cold case detective so we can maybe
Speaker 6: bring some peace here.
Speaker 4: You're incredible, gen Oh my.
Speaker 6: God, So are you ready for the mic drop? Let's
Speaker 6: go ahead and do it.
Speaker 4: Let's just get into it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you've got me in mind spinning.
Speaker 6: Your great grandmother was Dorothy Grace Anthony.
Speaker 4: Right, Yes, that's Tomorrow's mother, so.
Speaker 6: She's she's my grandmother's cousin, so we're.
Speaker 4: So we are related.
Speaker 2: That's what I said earlier.
Speaker 4: I have chicken skin all over my body, gen I
Speaker 4: do too.
Speaker 6: We're eighth cousins and.
Speaker 4: Up is that okay? Is that from your mom's side
Speaker 4: to your dad's side?
Speaker 6: Do you know it's my mother's side.
Speaker 4: Well, thank goodness, your non.
Speaker 6: Violent grandmother, my mom, non violent grandmother.
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh.
Speaker 6: And we just tripped and fell into somebody who was
Speaker 6: bad spit. Yeah. Our shared ancestors were really super cool people.
Speaker 4: We're o'hannah, we're family, h Hannah.
Speaker 6: So our shared ancestors, John Engles and Elizabeth Barrett were
Speaker 6: really cool people. And oh my god, please you to
Speaker 6: be excited that we're related to his mom. And I
Speaker 6: didn't get a chance to tell him.
Speaker 3: Well, no, that's not his mom. Dorothy Anthony's is. So
Speaker 3: his mom is Dorothy, it's Derrero, it's Derrero.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you're really.
Speaker 2: Related.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because George was married to Dorothy's. I know, it's very.
Speaker 6: Yeah, no I remember that now.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like I can't remember Derrero's but Dorothy.
Speaker 2: But Dorothy, you know, lived like two blocks away from
Speaker 2: here on Filmore in San Francisco.
Speaker 6: Wow, so your great grandmother Dorothy Grace Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what wow, Oh my gosh. Okay, now now that
Speaker 2: you've blown our mind. I just want to say this,
Speaker 2: you know, really quickly before we I know, you know
Speaker 2: you have stuff to do and time is valuable, but
Speaker 2: it's so important for you to share with listeners. You know,
Speaker 2: people who are going through similar circumstances, you know, such
Speaker 2: as yourself, can you give them some advice of you know,
Speaker 2: how to get through whatever they're going through, you.
Speaker 6: Know, because my life and your life, because my family
Speaker 6: and your family sounds so freaking melodramatic, right right, right,
Speaker 6: People think there's no relation, but there's a commonality suffering
Speaker 6: as part of life. Right. We do not go through
Speaker 6: this life unscathed. And trauma is trauma, loss is loss,
Speaker 6: pain is pain. So we all, we all meet on
Speaker 6: this field of suffering in this lifetime. And so I
Speaker 6: think that something uniquely that we have is that we
Speaker 6: have inherited this shame. Right, But that's not unique either
Speaker 6: in the sense that you know, I've met people in
Speaker 6: this life who have, you know, incest and violence in
Speaker 6: their background. And you know, I had a dear friend
Speaker 6: from a false who is from a small town and
Speaker 6: her dad was the town drunk. You know, he was
Speaker 6: constantly passing out. She's fourteen, she's going to pick him
Speaker 6: up at the bar.
Speaker 4: Sense of shame with that.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I've met individuals who were conceived non consensually and
Speaker 6: they were a product of rape and what have you.
Speaker 6: And so we meet at these common spaces of shame
Speaker 6: and stigma and pain and loss and suffering. And this
Speaker 6: is what I know. I know that help works and
Speaker 6: hope can be restored.
Speaker 3: You are hope, Jen, You you are the epitome of
Speaker 3: hope and light. And I think that's that's why I know,
Speaker 3: that's why I have gravitated to you, any that gravitated to.
Speaker 4: You and you your magic.
Speaker 3: Thank you well cousin, doctor Jen Carson, Mahalanuiloa for joining us.
Speaker 6: Thank you, and you know everyone, if anyone is experiencing
Speaker 6: suicidal thoughts or they have a level and that's experiencing
Speaker 6: suicidal thoughts, please call nine eight eight the National Suicide
Speaker 6: and Mental Health Crisis Lifeline. It's twenty four hours a day,
Speaker 6: text or call. If you are in need of resources
Speaker 6: for counseling in your area, called two one one to
Speaker 6: get a referral. And if you would like to connect
Speaker 6: with me, please follow me at doctor Jen Carson two
Speaker 6: ends and I'd love to connect with you and thank
Speaker 6: you rash Maniuvett for you know, being just love and
Speaker 6: light and also being leaders in the forefront of ethical
Speaker 6: true crime that is based in being trauma informed and
Speaker 6: victim centered, and so I appreciate you both so much.
Speaker 2: This week, we are dedicating our emua to doctor Jen
Speaker 2: Carson's mother and stepfather, Lynn and Mike Gonzales. From the
Speaker 2: moment danger was imminent, Lynn protected her child at all costs,
Speaker 2: and when Mike, her stepfather, came into their lives, he
Speaker 2: showered them with unconditional love and gave them the necessary
Speaker 2: tools to heal.
Speaker 3: And this simoa also goes out to those of you
Speaker 3: who have had to overcome unthinkable trauma just like doctor
Speaker 3: Jen Carson, and you have not only overcome, but you
Speaker 3: have transcended over that evil.
Speaker 2: She took that pain and suffering and turned it into
Speaker 2: her life's mission to help others heal and to provide hope.
Speaker 2: Doctor Carson now runs nine to five to one six
Speaker 2: eight six Help the Inland Southern California Crisis Helpline, a
Speaker 2: suicide hotline based in Riverside, California.
Speaker 3: If you or someone you know is having suicidal thoughts
Speaker 3: or are in a crisis, please call nine eight eight,
Speaker 3: the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline.
Speaker 4: You are not alone.
Speaker 3: Onward and upward ema e moua.
Speaker 4: Well, that's our show for today.
Speaker 3: We'd love to hear what you thought about today's discussion
Speaker 3: and if there's a case you'd like for us to cover.
Speaker 2: Find us on social media or email us at facingebl
Speaker 2: pod at tenderfoot dot tv.
Speaker 3: And one small request if you haven't already, please find
Speaker 3: us on iTunes and give us a good rating and
Speaker 3: a good review. If you like what we do, your
Speaker 3: support is always cherished.
Speaker 2: Until next time.
Speaker 3: Aloha.
Speaker 1: Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV.
Speaker 1: The show is hosted by Russia Pacuerero and Avet Gentile.
Speaker 1: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald
Speaker 1: albright In Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of
Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Carolyn Talmadge.
Speaker 1: Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on
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