1 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: are solely those of the individuals participating in the show 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 1: and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable 6 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 7 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 2: Hi, everyone, welcome back to Facing Evil. I'm vet Gente 8 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:31,639 Speaker 2: Lay and. 9 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 3: I'm Rosha Peccerreiro. Today we're going to do things a 10 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 3: little bit differently on Facing Evil because we are going 11 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 3: to have a guest on that is somewhat of a. 12 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:46,160 Speaker 4: Victim of this case. 13 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 3: She doesn't like to call herself a victim, but you're 14 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 3: going to understand why once we get into the discussion. 15 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's going to be a mic drop at 16 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 2: the very end, so wait for that. But the case 17 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 2: that we're talking about is the San Francisco witch killings 18 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 2: that place between nineteen eighty one and nineteen eighty three. 19 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:08,119 Speaker 2: The two killers were Michael Bear Carson and Susan Carson, 20 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 2: and they murdered at least three people. And our guest 21 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:19,119 Speaker 2: today is doctor Jen Carson. She is Michael Carson's daughter. 22 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 3: Yes, that's right, and doctor Jen Carson has an incredible 23 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 3: story of resilience and survival, and she's one of the 24 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 3: most inspiring humans I have the pleasure of knowing. I'm 25 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 3: so honored to have her here with us today. I'm 26 00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 3: facing evil, but first our producer Trevor is going to 27 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:40,559 Speaker 3: walk us through today's case. 28 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: The couple labeled the San Francisco Witch Killers Michael Bear 29 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: Carson and his second wife Susan smiling is the camera rule. 30 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 5: They're wicked. They're just wicked. He ran into the Carsons 31 00:01:55,200 --> 00:02:00,040 Speaker 5: that were traveling through and they were killing witches, and 32 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 5: she said that Clark was a witch and they therefore 33 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 5: killed him. 34 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 6: I remember thinking, I'm the daughter of the devil. 35 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: The San Francisco witch killings were a series of connected 36 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: murders that took place between nineteen eighty one and nineteen 37 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:19,919 Speaker 1: eighty three. The first victim was twenty three year old 38 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: Karen Barnes, who was found dead in her apartment in 39 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: March of nineteen eighty one. She had been stabbed thirteen times, 40 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:31,399 Speaker 1: wrapped in a blanket and hidden inside the basement. Then, 41 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 1: in May of nineteen eighty two, the burnt remains of 42 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: twenty six year old Clark Stephens were found in Humboldt County, California. 43 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: Stephens had been shot to death before his body was burned. Finally, 44 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: in January of nineteen eighty three, thirty year old John 45 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: Charles Hallier picked up two hitchhikers near Bakersfield. The two 46 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: hitchhikers apparently stabbed and shot Hewlier by the side of 47 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: the road. A passer by witnessed this murder and called 48 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: the police. The two assailants fled, but crashed their car, 49 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: and then they were apprehended. The two were named Michael 50 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: bhar Carson and Susan Carson, and it was soon revealed 51 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 1: that they were responsible for all three murders, and perhaps 52 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: even more, they admitted to killing Karen Barnes, who was 53 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: their roommate, because Susan believed Karen was a witch. After 54 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: killing her, they fled, eventually settling on a marijuana farm 55 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 1: in Alder Point, California. This is where they met Clark Stevens, 56 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: a fellow farmer. Stephens and others believed that the Carsons 57 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: were anarchists who were preparing for an inevitable nuclear apocalypse. 58 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: After a dispute with Stevens, Michael Carson shot and killed him. 59 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: After fleeing once more, the Carsons left behind a manifesto. 60 00:03:48,720 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: In it, they alluded to plans to assassinate President Ronald Reagan, 61 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: and thus they became major suspects in a secret service 62 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: investigation once they were captured following the murder of John 63 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: Hell You're on the Highway. The Carsons claim to have 64 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: traveled to Europe and back. They are suspects in over 65 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: a dozen other unsolved murders in Europe and in the 66 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: United States. They were eventually convicted for all three murders 67 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 1: and are both still serving sentences of seventy five years 68 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: to life. Another victim in this case was Jen Carson, 69 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: Michael's daughter from a previous marriage. Jen's mother, Lynn, divorced 70 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: Michael when Jen was only three years old. Michael remarried 71 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: Susan the following year. Jen described her stepmother as quote 72 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: the wicked witch. According to Jen, Susan refused to feed 73 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: Jen when she came to visit. Susan would also tell 74 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 1: Jen that she was the devil, that she was going 75 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: to hell, and that she deserved to die. Fearing for 76 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 1: her daughter's life, Lynne packed up and took Jen to 77 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: live with her uncle. Only later did Jen learn of 78 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: the terrible things her father had done. And so who 79 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: were Michael Bhare Carson and Susan Carson? What led them 80 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: down a murder crime spree in the nineteen eighties? And 81 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,679 Speaker 1: how does one come to terms with being close family 82 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:07,239 Speaker 1: to such a cold blooded killer? 83 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 3: So today, on Facing Evil, we are so honored to 84 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:19,559 Speaker 3: have doctor Jen Carson joining us. Doctor Carson has shared 85 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 3: her inspiring journey which has taken her from being a 86 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 3: suicidal child of a homicidal parent to a mental health advocate. 87 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 3: She speaks regularly at mental health awareness and suicide prevention events, 88 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:39,200 Speaker 3: and has been featured on CNN and PR. 89 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 4: The Today Show, the BBC. The list goes on and on. 90 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,600 Speaker 3: I'm only naming a few here at Komo May Welcome 91 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 3: to Facing Evil, Doctor Jen Carson. 92 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 2: Hi, how are you. 93 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 6: I'm so excited to be with you both today. 94 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 2: We're so excited to have you, doctor Jen. 95 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 6: I just I love the both of you, and I'm 96 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 6: so glad your family is my life. 97 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 4: So we feel the exact same way. 98 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 3: So before we get to, of course, the amazing work 99 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 3: that you do, now, can you just share a little 100 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:15,280 Speaker 3: bit with us about your childhood and where you started 101 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:17,039 Speaker 3: and where you came from. 102 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 6: Yeah, no, definitely. So my parents met in the counterculture 103 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 6: movement in college and were involved in war protests and 104 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 6: the music and so on. For those of you who 105 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 6: are familiar with the Chicago Seven trial, they were in 106 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 6: the audience. Wow, they were at the sly In Family 107 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 6: Stone Riot and Grant Park in Chicago. So kind of 108 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:46,480 Speaker 6: like they were just kind of right in the mix 109 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 6: of things in that late nineteen sixties, and they really 110 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 6: bonded over their love of you know, history and philosophy 111 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 6: and so on. And my father looked like he had 112 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:02,839 Speaker 6: a really great career ahead of him. It was his 113 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 6: hope to become an academic professor, and my mom also 114 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 6: to be an educator. He came from an incredible middle 115 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 6: class family and there was not a traumatic background, okay, 116 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 6: and so you had a you know, kind of great 117 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 6: future ahead of him. And after I was born and 118 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 6: my mom had finished their degrees at University of Iowa 119 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 6: and went to graduate school at University of South Carolina, 120 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 6: engaged in a program to work in recently desegregated schools. 121 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 6: So kind of really rooted in civil rights, right, yeah, 122 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 6: and they were teaching and an elementary school where you know, 123 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 6: kind of all the white teachers had taken off, and 124 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 6: so they were serving there. And then soon after they 125 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 6: moved to the Phoenix area to serve in a similar 126 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 6: program with Native American youth. And that time my father's 127 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 6: mild min illness became more severe. His recreational drug use 128 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 6: went from also mild to severe. My mother, after almost 129 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 6: a decade, chose to divorce him, and he did then 130 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 6: receive joint custody. And then one fateful night, he went 131 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 6: to a party at a woman named Susan's house. She 132 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 6: was a wealthy divorcee in Scottsdale, Arizona, and had had 133 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 6: a huge divorce settlement and was kind of having a 134 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:35,800 Speaker 6: midlife crisis and he went to a party at her 135 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 6: house and he never left. He and Susan were together 136 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 6: and they sold all her assets from the divorce and 137 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 6: decided to go in a worldwide spiritual journey of some 138 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 6: sort of some kind of pilgrimage. But before they left, 139 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 6: they did a lot of damage. During my joint custody visits, 140 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 6: I had some pretty horrific visits. That is when the 141 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 6: literal horror movie of my early life started. 142 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 2: That's a whole lot to unpack, Like to start from 143 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 2: such a powerful place, you know, of doing such good 144 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 2: and then to fall into this craziness. Would you say 145 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,559 Speaker 2: that it's when he met Susan that changed. 146 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 6: I feel like a lot of people in this case 147 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 6: boil it down to like a Jimmy Buffett line, which is, 148 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 6: you know, some people say there's a woman to blame, 149 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 6: and so a lot of people see this case as 150 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 6: the traditional dominant and submissive and that my father is 151 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 6: submissive in this and I now know of him being 152 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 6: violent prior definitely see some you know, evidence of treating 153 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 6: me quite well due to narcissism. You know, I look 154 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 6: like him and I was a mini himn versus you know, 155 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 6: what we would consider love. And so I just don't 156 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,680 Speaker 6: that narrative that a lot of people have around this case. 157 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 6: When they meet she had had some long term mental 158 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 6: illness with some kind of psychosis and some hallucinations that 159 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 6: had been controlled by medication, and so in my mind, 160 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 6: he's almost using her delusions as an excuse to be violent. 161 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 4: To act out. 162 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:25,559 Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, she did horrifically abuse me. I have 163 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 6: had lifelong flashes of her dunky me underwater, and there 164 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 6: was an incident where she scratched open my back and 165 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 6: there were five nail marks that looked like a where 166 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 6: wolf had come at me. That is when my mother 167 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:43,439 Speaker 6: decided to take off. Was that incident. Prior to that 168 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 6: she had concerns about me being at their home. Sure, 169 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 6: but she was absolutely petrified and essentially did a custodial 170 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 6: kidnapping at that point to protect you, to protect me. 171 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 6: And we were then in hiding for a good part 172 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 6: of five years. 173 00:10:58,679 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 4: Oh wow, Jen. 174 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 6: Wow, And no one believed my mother. She went to 175 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 6: everyone and said, he's these people are going to kill someone. 176 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 6: They're going to kill someone. She went to police, she 177 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,439 Speaker 6: went to attorneys, she went to her family, she went 178 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 6: to his family, She went to everyone, and they were 179 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 6: remembering the brilliant boy in college. You know, they weren't seeing. 180 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 4: They didn't want to believe. 181 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:23,679 Speaker 6: You know, he'd moved across the country and a lot 182 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 6: of people in his life, you know, and so that's 183 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 6: you know, kind of understandable. But it's just she was incredibly, 184 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 6: incredibly isolated, and you know, the heroic part of the 185 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 6: story is that she remains resolute when no one on 186 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,319 Speaker 6: earth believes her. It's like the whole world has gas 187 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 6: lit her. Wow, I mean not one person. It's like 188 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 6: we've all been everyone. Yeah, we've all been in toxic 189 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 6: relationships where an individual, but it's like the whole world 190 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 6: has gas lit her, and she stays resolute and these 191 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 6: people will kill me and my child. We must be safe. 192 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 2: Your mother protected you without a doubt and got you 193 00:11:58,480 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 2: out of that situation. 194 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 6: And I think that's one of the bonds I have 195 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 6: with the two of you, because you had a mother 196 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 6: who was an extraordinary individual. My mother's complicated, as all 197 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 6: mothers are. Yes, I think we've bonded on having that 198 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 6: extraordinary mother, you know, So I think that that's powerful. 199 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:42,680 Speaker 3: I just have to tell you, I am so just 200 00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 3: blown away by your honesty and your truth and your authenticity. 201 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 3: And I do know that you are so open about 202 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 3: having suicidal ideations. If I can ask, what was the 203 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 3: catalyst for that? Was it when Susan, you know, started 204 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 3: the abuse? Was it when you were whisked away? 205 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 6: I mean? 206 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:04,079 Speaker 4: Or was it all the perfect storm? 207 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 6: So definitely, you know, I had experienced extensive trauma and abuse. 208 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 6: I briefly mentioned, you know, the custody visits, but there 209 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 6: was so much more exposure to interpersonal violence, you know, trauma. 210 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,559 Speaker 6: My mother is working two jobs. I then become that 211 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 6: feral gen. 212 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 4: X product of a single mom. 213 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 6: Yeah, also survived some sexual abuse in childhood, and so 214 00:13:31,559 --> 00:13:35,319 Speaker 6: there'd been some layers in trauma. And people like to say, 215 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 6: you know that I became suicidal because my father's arrest. 216 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:43,959 Speaker 6: My father's arrest was the last straw, right, So because 217 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 6: you know, at age nine, I become the child of 218 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 6: a serial killer. This is not something that happens to 219 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 6: me when I'm a fully formed adult, right nine, and 220 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 6: I'm like, do I have monster genes? Do Am I 221 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 6: going to be a monster? Am I going to kill people? 222 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 6: And so you know, I definitely perceived that this could 223 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 6: be inherited and you know, and that I would end 224 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 6: up like this. So you know, I was incredibly fearful, 225 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 6: and that's when I started the long battle with both 226 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 6: suicidality and then Russia. You and I have talked extensively 227 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 6: about my eating disorder. Yeah, it's so important to be 228 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 6: trauma informed and say to someone not what's wrong with you, 229 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 6: but what happened to you? Right? So you know, I 230 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 6: can buy all of those things, honestly, but it has 231 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 6: been lifelong journey to keep myself alive. 232 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 2: You said so many things that you know, obviously we 233 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 2: can relate to because of our family. And I go 234 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,000 Speaker 2: back and I think about myself, you know, when I 235 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 2: first found out, and I just I thought the same thing, like, 236 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 2: oh my god, I feel so hooky, so dirty, so 237 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 2: whatever inside because of George Hodell, you know, because what 238 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 2: we've been told, because of what he's been done. But 239 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 2: what I want to ask you is, so what tools 240 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 2: did you use to pull yourself out, to pull yourself up, 241 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 2: to walk out of that pain? You know, I know 242 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 2: it's something that we all have to work on every 243 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 2: single day, but can you give our listeners an example 244 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 2: of what you did to get through it? 245 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 6: Do you remember the Princess Diana. It was called the 246 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 6: Revenge Dress. Yeah, you know it's public that you know, 247 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 6: Charles has now been unfaithful, hurt for her for a decade, 248 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 6: and she puts on what's called the revenge dress and 249 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 6: she walks and you see her so resolute, and we 250 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 6: know she battled really severe depression needing disorder as well, 251 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 6: and you see her and she walks, she walks into 252 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 6: this event. She's wearing the supposed revenge dress. So I'll 253 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 6: be honest with you, there were there were a lot 254 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 6: of people along the way that helped me. You know. 255 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 6: There was you know, uh my third grade teacher, Sylvia 256 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 6: Kay So I recently reunited with. 257 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 2: Yes, I saw that, thank you. 258 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 6: There's you know girl Scouts. First and foremost always is 259 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 6: you know, my my stepfather of thirty nine years. But 260 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 6: unfortunately I me, to be honest with you, there were 261 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 6: a lot of family members that were like, you know, 262 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 6: pretty much like poor Jenny, this poor Jenny that they 263 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 6: would say that, and they would say, you know, essentially 264 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 6: I was going to end up a drug addict and homeless, 265 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 6: and you know, they just thought I was going to 266 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 6: not amount to anything. And so, to be perfectly honest 267 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 6: with you, showing them success, I was that walking revenge 268 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 6: dress for a while and I would just go and 269 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 6: some of these like negative, cruel, toxic relatives are are gone, right, 270 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 6: and so here I am. I you know, I got 271 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 6: a doctorate. They always made fun of my weight of 272 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 6: now you know, have the weight kind of under control, 273 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 6: you know, but it's like it's interesting because just now 274 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:13,320 Speaker 6: in midlife I've been shedding that over a while. Yeah, 275 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,959 Speaker 6: and I've been living a more purpose driven life. But 276 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 6: I would say for a good chunk of my journey, 277 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:22,120 Speaker 6: I was just like resolute to just just show them. 278 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 2: To prove them all wrong. 279 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 6: Correct, prove them all wrong. But now in this second 280 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 6: part of my life, I really want to be driven 281 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:35,160 Speaker 6: by other things. Yeah, Now, I would say that would 282 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:39,439 Speaker 6: be what was driving me, maybe personally, definitely in my work, 283 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 6: you know, as you know I'm a suicide hotline manager. 284 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 6: I mean that is absolutely rooted in that help works. 285 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:52,160 Speaker 6: I received help, and so I want to utilize these 286 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:54,640 Speaker 6: gifts I have. But definitely there's there. I think there's 287 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 6: part of me that's still holding on to that, and 288 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 6: I would really like to see myself as I move 289 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 6: forward to let that go and not be the walking 290 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 6: revenge dress. 291 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:04,400 Speaker 2: Right, just walk in your own power. 292 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:09,400 Speaker 6: Just seek joy and light and realize the best revenge 293 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 6: is to live well, but also just to let go 294 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:13,919 Speaker 6: of revenge, like that's not a thing. I've actually started 295 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 6: meeting with an expert, one of the world's experts on forgiveness. 296 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 2: Beautiful, can you just tell us, because you did say 297 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,000 Speaker 2: earlier that you know you have a history with our family. 298 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,640 Speaker 2: So can you tell our listeners how you actually connected 299 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 2: with our great uncle Steve. 300 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 6: Yeah. So I wrote in the newspaper that the child 301 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 6: of a prominent serial killer was on suicide watch in 302 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 6: a hospital after their parent was arrested. And I sat 303 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 6: down and I wrote that personal letter, and my best 304 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 6: friend said, you have to publish this. This is really powerful. 305 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:53,199 Speaker 6: So it was published in Reclare magazine, which was a 306 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 6: fashion magazine. Yeah, there was like a French, a Dutch, 307 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 6: you know, German issue, Spanish issue. So it was in 308 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:07,159 Speaker 6: all of those issues. And I was getting contacts from 309 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 6: people all over the world and they were emailing Marie 310 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 6: clareen as being emailed to me. And this this was 311 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 6: prior to social media. 312 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, two thousand and seven, right, that's when you publicly 313 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 3: came out as the child of a serial killer. 314 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 6: And I did so prior to other prominent children of 315 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 6: serial killers that now speak publicly. And so I was 316 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 6: one of the I believe I was the first person. 317 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 6: I was the first to go public. So I needed 318 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 6: some sort of support to navigate this. And then after 319 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 6: I read your uncle's book, we became pen pals and 320 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 6: at the time I was working as a special education 321 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 6: school counselor, and I think he was just retiring from 322 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:59,159 Speaker 6: law enforcement. And this was like seventeen years ago that 323 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 6: we started to be penn and he like just I 324 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 6: am endlessly blown away of the kindness of strangers. And 325 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 6: you know, he has been kind and throughout the years 326 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 6: for seventeen years, I have randomly reached out for him, 327 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 6: to him for help off and on, and he has 328 00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,879 Speaker 6: always provided it. And he's just been this kind of 329 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 6: like long distance friend. 330 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 4: Jen. 331 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 3: I didn't actually meet our great uncle Steve until five 332 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 3: minutes before we were on The Doctor Phil Show in 333 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 3: twenty nineteen. 334 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,360 Speaker 6: I have an older relationship with him than you do. 335 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 4: Yes, you do, which I think is hysterical. 336 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 6: Quite amazing. He's quite amazing. He's really something. 337 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 2: You are going above and beyond to pay it forward 338 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 2: to others, but also to prove to yourself that you 339 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 2: are worthy, and that in itself is huge. It's a 340 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 2: lesson for all of us, you know, to learn from. 341 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 6: I so appreciate that you brought power into the space 342 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 6: because Yvetam so often asked why I have not changed 343 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 6: my last name. You know, my father, Michael bar Carson 344 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 6: did not own that last name, right, there were ancestors 345 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 6: before having that last name, and you know, and so 346 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 6: I have chosen to keep my name. And you know, 347 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 6: I'm asked so many kind of weird questions of you know, 348 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 6: do I feel guilty? No, I didn't harm anyone, and 349 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:32,439 Speaker 6: I was eight. So my father's parents were extraordinary people. 350 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 6: My grandmother, Jewish American woman, was threatened for teaching African 351 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 6: American literature in the sixties in Tulsa. She was extraordinary. 352 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:45,400 Speaker 5: Wow. 353 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 2: Wow. 354 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 6: She was a World War two veteran. Her husband, my grandfather, 355 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 6: was a World War two veteran. He was a college 356 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 6: educated engineer and worked for the Department of Energy and 357 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 6: was an energy advisor in the White House. These were 358 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 6: incredible people. And so I think that people can't wrap 359 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,679 Speaker 6: their head around nuance that you can be good people 360 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 6: and your child can be violent, yeah, or you know, 361 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 6: you can have a parent that's a literal human predator. 362 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 6: I mean, my father is a monster. You know, when 363 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 6: you read about vampires and were wolves and what have you, 364 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 6: if you read the history of these origins, there would 365 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 6: be a village in Hungary and there would be a 366 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,439 Speaker 6: mutilated body and they didn't know that there were human predators, 367 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 6: so we invented the were wolves and the vampire. 368 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 2: You knows. 369 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 6: So my parent is a literal monster and I'm. 370 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,360 Speaker 4: Flawed are but I am. 371 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 6: Certainly not a monster, and I'm a good and kind person. 372 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 6: So people just can't wrap their head around these things. 373 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,679 Speaker 6: They want things to be very simplistic, and life isn't simplistic. 374 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 2: That was a huge question, I'm sure sure to a 375 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 2: lot of people. Why didn't she change her name? And 376 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 2: you just hit the nail on the coffin. 377 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 6: There's a couple questions people always ask me, and they 378 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 6: want these reallys that you know, why did your father 379 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 6: become violent? Was it his wife? Was it? Was it drugs? 380 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 6: Was it mental illness? And I'm like it was a titanic. 381 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, like a hundred. 382 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 6: Factors that created this situation. And so they want me 383 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 6: to say, you know, it was his evil second wife 384 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 6: and she hexts on him and you know whatever, and 385 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,439 Speaker 6: you know, or was this and you know he was 386 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 6: doing extraordinary amounts of LSD and I think there was 387 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 6: a drug in psychosis. But also people to mental ill 388 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 6: are more likely to be victims of violence and perpetrate violence, 389 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,439 Speaker 6: and most people with types of psychosis are kind. So 390 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 6: I also think he's a sociopath or psychopath that doesn't 391 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,679 Speaker 6: watch him. Also think it was the toxic relationship with 392 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 6: the second wife. You know, I think it's a number 393 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 6: of things. But people want me to have a single 394 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,920 Speaker 6: answer for all these questions and this is not multiple choice. 395 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 4: I won't ask aby's your d Yeah, and how dare 396 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 4: they ask you that? 397 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 6: Right? Again, it's it's this concept that I should be 398 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:25,160 Speaker 6: sorry for this or bear some guilt. And I recently 399 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 6: did an interview with People magazine and I got this 400 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 6: backlash of she's trying to sell a book and I 401 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 6: was like, could you link me to my book on Amazon? 402 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 6: Because I didn't know existed. I don't have a book. 403 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:40,920 Speaker 6: I haven't written a book. And you know, they thought 404 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 6: I made all this money, and I said, let me 405 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 6: tell you what People magazine gave me. Because new sources 406 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 6: don't pay people, I told them i'd had I had 407 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 6: a big weight loss. They offered to load me a 408 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 6: couple dresses, and they gave me a sandwich. 409 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:59,120 Speaker 3: Oh, yay, sandwich. Hey that's big spender there. 410 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 6: Yes, And so that was it. So people want to say, 411 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 6: is she a victim or is she a villain. They 412 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 6: also want to say she's the offender's daughter, so she's 413 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,919 Speaker 6: either evil and violent or she's trying to make money 414 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 6: off this. 415 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,439 Speaker 4: They do it to us too. Yeah, they want to 416 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 4: put you in a box. 417 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 6: Yeah. They need this to be black and white. 418 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. And the thing about it is people always want 419 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 2: to create their own narrative in their head without all 420 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 2: the facts. 421 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:53,399 Speaker 3: You are here this week in Portland, and you made 422 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 3: this beautiful you know stone for you know, one of 423 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 3: your father's you know, he's accused of killing this beautiful soul. 424 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 4: Please if you could share that story. 425 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 6: Yeah, definitely. So I have several interesting things happen. You know, 426 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 6: as I'm speaking publicly about being the former suicidal child 427 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,919 Speaker 6: of a homicidal parent, is I have people who contact 428 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:19,919 Speaker 6: I have two sets of people contact me. One is 429 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 6: people who tell me I'm the child of a pedophile, 430 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 6: I'm the child of a serial rapist, I'm the child 431 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,239 Speaker 6: of this or that, and you know I'm able to 432 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 6: love on them and give them some support and navigate. 433 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 6: The other type of people who contact me are people 434 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 6: who say, I encountered your father and stepmother and they 435 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 6: almost killed me. Okay, and these people will tell me 436 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 6: the story and it matches up. 437 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 4: The timelines the thing. 438 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, it matches the timeline. And so there are 439 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 6: so many people that they tell me they almost killed. 440 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 6: And then you know, one of the contacts I've gotten 441 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 6: over the years is a ton of people from Portland 442 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 6: saying I was friends with Andrea Maren. I knew your 443 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 6: father while he was working at the Benson Hotel in Portland. 444 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 6: I didn't know that, Jen, I didn't know you worked 445 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:12,160 Speaker 6: at the Benson. 446 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, I moved here. 447 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 3: I moved here from HONOLULUAI, and I worked. 448 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 4: Granted, this is I mean, I'm only this is after yeah, yeah. 449 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 6: I know, but you worked at the same hotel. I 450 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 6: mean this is I need the listeners to know this. 451 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 6: Like every time that Rashia and I talk, we have 452 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,959 Speaker 6: some intersection and and I have a mic drop at 453 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 6: the end of this episode that okay, like I think 454 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 6: both Russia and Vett are going to like literally like 455 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 6: just be speechless. 456 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:48,959 Speaker 4: Oh my godh my god. 457 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 6: So while he was working at the Benson Hotel in Portland. 458 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:57,400 Speaker 6: So so initially my father and stepmother were in they 459 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 6: emigrated to Israel. My father had gotten birth right citizenship. 460 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 6: That's where an individual who is Sephardic or as Kanasi Jewish, 461 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 6: you know whatever, can acquire citizenship in Israel. So they 462 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 6: were in Israel and then they traveled all over Europe 463 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,159 Speaker 6: and there are multiple cold cases in Europe and specifically 464 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 6: in Britain that interpool was suspected of committeing. And I've 465 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 6: offered my DNA to the European entities who want to 466 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:28,880 Speaker 6: close those cases. 467 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:29,640 Speaker 4: Wow. 468 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 6: So they are then in the United States and primarily 469 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,640 Speaker 6: they're growing marijuana on a farm in Humboldt, and then 470 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 6: they're in San Francisco, Portland, Eugene, and they would harvest 471 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,800 Speaker 6: and get a cut of the weed at the farm, 472 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 6: and then they were kind of on this circuit between 473 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 6: nineteen seventy nine and nineteen eighty three where they were selling. 474 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 6: They were primarily spending most of their time in San Francisco, Eugene, 475 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 6: between northern California and Oregon, Eugene, Portland. 476 00:28:58,520 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 4: On the West coast. 477 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,959 Speaker 6: Yeah, over the years, a lot of people have contacted 478 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 6: me and they've said, we were acquainted with Michael Baron, 479 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 6: Susan Carson, who were you know, selling weed and at 480 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 6: Portland State University and there was a beautiful young woman 481 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 6: who was murdered and they were friends with her. Her 482 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 6: name was Andrew Maren. Her father was doctor Oscar Maren, 483 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 6: world renowned neuroscience scientists and neurosurgeon who was at a 484 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 6: Good Samaritan in Portland and with University of Oregon. She 485 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 6: was murdered in the same way as my father's known victim, 486 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 6: Karen Barnes in San Francisco. And many people believe that 487 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 6: my father and stepmother murdered her, and they're just everyone 488 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 6: knows it. Everyone believes it, and there's just not physical evidence. 489 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 6: So what I did yesterday is I tapped into my 490 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 6: love for gen Z. Like my nieces and nephews are 491 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 6: just so fun and so I love gen Z, right, Yeah, 492 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 6: I just love it. I love my students of that age. 493 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 6: I just have no one to love for the generation. 494 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 6: So I decided what I was going to do is 495 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 6: just tap into that. I did lay a stone the 496 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 6: sixteen hundred block of Southwest Park Avenue yesterday where Andrew 497 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:21,959 Speaker 6: Marrin was murdered. I laid a stone asking for any tips. 498 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 6: And so what I'm asking is that the Portland State 499 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 6: University students just kick in, and I need you to 500 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 6: go talk to elders. So if you know an elder 501 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 6: who is around forty years ago, so will you know 502 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 6: individuals age sixty probably eighty. If you know an elder, 503 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 6: you know a shop owner in the area or faculty, 504 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 6: just go talk to them, see if you can get 505 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 6: anything that we can connect the dots to. And then 506 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 6: you can hit me up and via social media at 507 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 6: doctor Jen Carson. So it's it's it's my hope that 508 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 6: we can do that. And then if you're one of 509 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 6: those people where your mom or dad or aunt and 510 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 6: uncle had talked about encountering these people, you can hit 511 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 6: me up there. I can help you navigate to get 512 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 6: that to the cold case detective so we can maybe 513 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 6: bring some peace here. 514 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 4: You're incredible, gen Oh my. 515 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 6: God, So are you ready for the mic drop? Let's 516 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 6: go ahead and do it. 517 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 4: Let's just get into it. 518 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, because you've got me in mind spinning. 519 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 6: Your great grandmother was Dorothy Grace Anthony. 520 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 4: Right, Yes, that's Tomorrow's mother, so. 521 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 6: She's she's my grandmother's cousin, so we're. 522 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 4: So we are related. 523 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 2: That's what I said earlier. 524 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 4: I have chicken skin all over my body, gen I 525 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:35,320 Speaker 4: do too. 526 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 6: We're eighth cousins and. 527 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 4: Up is that okay? Is that from your mom's side 528 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 4: to your dad's side? 529 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 6: Do you know it's my mother's side. 530 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 4: Well, thank goodness, your non. 531 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 6: Violent grandmother, my mom, non violent grandmother. 532 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 4: Oh my gosh. 533 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 6: And we just tripped and fell into somebody who was 534 00:31:53,800 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 6: bad spit. Yeah. Our shared ancestors were really super cool people. 535 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 4: We're o'hannah, we're family, h Hannah. 536 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 6: So our shared ancestors, John Engles and Elizabeth Barrett were 537 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 6: really cool people. And oh my god, please you to 538 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 6: be excited that we're related to his mom. And I 539 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 6: didn't get a chance to tell him. 540 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,960 Speaker 3: Well, no, that's not his mom. Dorothy Anthony's is. So 541 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 3: his mom is Dorothy, it's Derrero, it's Derrero. 542 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, you're really. 543 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 2: Related. 544 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, because George was married to Dorothy's. I know, it's very. 545 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 6: Yeah, no I remember that now. 546 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like I can't remember Derrero's but Dorothy. 547 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 2: But Dorothy, you know, lived like two blocks away from 548 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 2: here on Filmore in San Francisco. 549 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 6: Wow, so your great grandmother Dorothy Grace Yeah. 550 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, what wow, Oh my gosh. Okay, now now that 551 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 2: you've blown our mind. I just want to say this, 552 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 2: you know, really quickly before we I know, you know 553 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 2: you have stuff to do and time is valuable, but 554 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 2: it's so important for you to share with listeners. You know, 555 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 2: people who are going through similar circumstances, you know, such 556 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 2: as yourself, can you give them some advice of you know, 557 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 2: how to get through whatever they're going through, you. 558 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 6: Know, because my life and your life, because my family 559 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 6: and your family sounds so freaking melodramatic, right right, right, 560 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 6: People think there's no relation, but there's a commonality suffering 561 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 6: as part of life. Right. We do not go through 562 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 6: this life unscathed. And trauma is trauma, loss is loss, 563 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 6: pain is pain. So we all, we all meet on 564 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 6: this field of suffering in this lifetime. And so I 565 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,600 Speaker 6: think that something uniquely that we have is that we 566 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 6: have inherited this shame. Right, But that's not unique either 567 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 6: in the sense that you know, I've met people in 568 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 6: this life who have, you know, incest and violence in 569 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 6: their background. And you know, I had a dear friend 570 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 6: from a false who is from a small town and 571 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,799 Speaker 6: her dad was the town drunk. You know, he was 572 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 6: constantly passing out. She's fourteen, she's going to pick him 573 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 6: up at the bar. 574 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 4: Sense of shame with that. 575 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 6: Yeah, I've met individuals who were conceived non consensually and 576 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 6: they were a product of rape and what have you. 577 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 6: And so we meet at these common spaces of shame 578 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:46,279 Speaker 6: and stigma and pain and loss and suffering. And this 579 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:51,359 Speaker 6: is what I know. I know that help works and 580 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 6: hope can be restored. 581 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 3: You are hope, Jen, You you are the epitome of 582 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 3: hope and light. And I think that's that's why I know, 583 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 3: that's why I have gravitated to you, any that gravitated to. 584 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 4: You and you your magic. 585 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:12,759 Speaker 3: Thank you well cousin, doctor Jen Carson, Mahalanuiloa for joining us. 586 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 6: Thank you, and you know everyone, if anyone is experiencing 587 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 6: suicidal thoughts or they have a level and that's experiencing 588 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:25,239 Speaker 6: suicidal thoughts, please call nine eight eight the National Suicide 589 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 6: and Mental Health Crisis Lifeline. It's twenty four hours a day, 590 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,960 Speaker 6: text or call. If you are in need of resources 591 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 6: for counseling in your area, called two one one to 592 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 6: get a referral. And if you would like to connect 593 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 6: with me, please follow me at doctor Jen Carson two 594 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:46,720 Speaker 6: ends and I'd love to connect with you and thank 595 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,400 Speaker 6: you rash Maniuvett for you know, being just love and 596 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 6: light and also being leaders in the forefront of ethical 597 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 6: true crime that is based in being trauma informed and 598 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 6: victim centered, and so I appreciate you both so much. 599 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,839 Speaker 2: This week, we are dedicating our emua to doctor Jen 600 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 2: Carson's mother and stepfather, Lynn and Mike Gonzales. From the 601 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:21,760 Speaker 2: moment danger was imminent, Lynn protected her child at all costs, 602 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 2: and when Mike, her stepfather, came into their lives, he 603 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 2: showered them with unconditional love and gave them the necessary 604 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:31,320 Speaker 2: tools to heal. 605 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,520 Speaker 3: And this simoa also goes out to those of you 606 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 3: who have had to overcome unthinkable trauma just like doctor 607 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,960 Speaker 3: Jen Carson, and you have not only overcome, but you 608 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:44,960 Speaker 3: have transcended over that evil. 609 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 2: She took that pain and suffering and turned it into 610 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 2: her life's mission to help others heal and to provide hope. 611 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,359 Speaker 2: Doctor Carson now runs nine to five to one six 612 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:02,440 Speaker 2: eight six Help the Inland Southern California Crisis Helpline, a 613 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 2: suicide hotline based in Riverside, California. 614 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 3: If you or someone you know is having suicidal thoughts 615 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 3: or are in a crisis, please call nine eight eight, 616 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,800 Speaker 3: the National Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. 617 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:19,800 Speaker 4: You are not alone. 618 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:28,120 Speaker 3: Onward and upward ema e moua. 619 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:31,360 Speaker 4: Well, that's our show for today. 620 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 3: We'd love to hear what you thought about today's discussion 621 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:36,959 Speaker 3: and if there's a case you'd like for us to cover. 622 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,759 Speaker 2: Find us on social media or email us at facingebl 623 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:42,640 Speaker 2: pod at tenderfoot dot tv. 624 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 3: And one small request if you haven't already, please find 625 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 3: us on iTunes and give us a good rating and 626 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 3: a good review. If you like what we do, your 627 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:53,400 Speaker 3: support is always cherished. 628 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:54,840 Speaker 2: Until next time. 629 00:37:55,280 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 3: Aloha. 630 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,399 Speaker 1: Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV. 631 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,360 Speaker 1: The show is hosted by Russia Pacuerero and Avet Gentile. 632 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,840 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf 633 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald 634 00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,960 Speaker 1: albright In Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of 635 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Carolyn Talmadge. 636 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:43,319 Speaker 1: Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on 637 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 1: social media or email us at Facingevilpod at tenderfoot dot tv. 638 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,920 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or tenderfoot TV, visit the 639 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 640 00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:04,320 Speaker 1: favorite shows.