WEBVTT - The Incel Theory 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:07.520 He spent a lot of time by himself, isolated and online. 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:11.959 Elliott Rogers, he was good looking, and smart and interesting, 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:14.360 he had a good personality and all of these things, 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:17.440 and yet he couldn't get a date. And he decided 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:24.120 at some point to blaming all women for his problems. 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:31.280 This is the Idaho Massacre a production of KAT Studios 0:00:31.520 --> 0:00:38.440 and iHeartRadio, Season three, episode seven, The in Cell Theory 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:43.760 Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KAT Studios, with Stephanie Leideker, 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:49.920 Alison Bankston, and Gabriel Castillo. On July twenty third, twenty 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:53.600 twenty five, Brian Coberger was sentenced to four consecutive life 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:58.080 sentences for the brutal murders of Madison Mogan, Killy Gonsalvez, 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:05.120 Xana Kernodle, and eth Than Shapin. For many, his guilty 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:07.680 plea felt like a long awaited end to a nightmare 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:12.520 chapter in Moscow, Idaho. But for others the closure was bittersweet. 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:18.679 They still carry unanswered questions and anger. One of the 0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:22.440 most striking omissions was that Brian Coberger was never required 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:27.400 to explain himself. Prosecutor Bill Thompson did not demand an allocution, 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:31.160 meaning Coburger never stood in court and stated why he 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:36.039 committed these unspeakable crimes. He offered no insight, no apology, 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:41.480 and no explanation. And so the question of why still 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:45.559 looms large. What could have driven him to do something 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:49.080 so heinous? What was the motive? One theory that is 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:52.400 circulated is that Brian Coberger may have been an insult 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:59.520 an involuntary celibate, that someone who feels rejected, especially by women, 0:01:59.760 --> 0:02:03.720 and and who sometimes channels that rejection into rage and violence. 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:06.880 Could Coberger have targeted one of the young women he 0:02:06.960 --> 0:02:12.400 murdered because of this mindset? Is there real weight to 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:16.120 this theory or is it a label that's too easily applied? 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:20.160 And perhaps the biggest question of all, what does it 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:25.920 actually mean to be an in cel? Dell bunpack these questions. 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:29.760 We turned to sociologist doctor Michael Kimmel. He's a leading 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:34.000 expert on men's studies and masculinities. He joins us to 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:37.760 explain what the in cell community is, what it isn't, 0:02:37.800 --> 0:02:41.519 and how it fits into the larger conversation around Brian Coberger. 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:45.119 He's joined by our producer Alison Bankston. 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:50.480 If you can just tell me a little bit about 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:52.279 your career and your background. 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:55.399 How did you find kind of your niche in gender studies? 0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:58.400 Well, my PhD is in sociology, and I was a 0:02:58.400 --> 0:03:03.280 sociology professor for many years, and swirling around the academy 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:06.640 was you know, feminism was women's studies, and it was just, 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:09.400 you know, it was too compelling and too important, I 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:12.160 think to ignore. Then I realized early on that there 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:16.880 really weren't very good studies research done on men as men. 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:19.160 You know, there was a lot of stuff happening for 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:22.480 people which by which they interviewed men, and then there 0:03:22.480 --> 0:03:25.480 were work on women, but there wasn't anything that really 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:29.440 addressed masculinity or gender and how it affected men. So 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:32.040 in early nineteen ninety I decided I was going to 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:34.720 write a history of the idea of masculinity in America, 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:37.480 which had never been written. That was my first book, 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:41.000 Man Who in America? And then from then I've worked 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:44.080 on young men ages sixteen to twenty six in a 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:46.840 book called Guyland, And most recently my work has been 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:49.960 on what I called angry white men. Why are white 0:03:50.000 --> 0:03:52.760 men so angry? Why are they so resentful? Why do 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:55.800 they feel like they're such victims? My book angry white 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:58.680 Men came out in twenty thirteen, and the word in 0:03:58.800 --> 0:04:00.240 cell hadn't been invented it. 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:03.560 What is the manosphere for people who don't know or 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:04.680 never heard of it before? 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:07.360 Can you tell me exactly what that is? 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:12.440 Well, the manosphere is a general term for that part 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:17.120 of the Internet that has been appropriated by and colonized 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:19.840 by a large number of men who use it as 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:24.240 a platform for exploring some things that are you know, 0:04:24.680 --> 0:04:26.839 good things like how do you be a good father? 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:30.280 To a place where they can air their grievances about 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:34.720 their own victimization. The manosphere tends to be very white, 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:38.080 somewhat middle and working class, and it tends to be 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:42.800 on the whole angry. Now the manosphere in general begins, 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:46.880 I think the real the beginning of the manosphere as 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:49.680 a place where men will come to air these kinds 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:52.760 of grievances begin with what was called gamergate in the 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:57.120 mid to late nineteen nineties. And Gamergate was basically an 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:00.560 effort by young male gamers to keep women out of 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:03.599 the gaming environment because there were suddenly all of these 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:07.599 multiplayer games. They were these online games, people were gaming live, 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:11.000 and the guys thought that this was like part of 0:05:11.040 --> 0:05:14.800 their life. And when all these girls started, you know, 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:18.120 becoming gamers, they really resented it. They felt it was 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:21.200 like an invasion of their space. So the Man of 0:05:21.279 --> 0:05:23.120 Sphere was an attempt to sort of say, Okay, we're 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:28.040 gonna build border boundaries. What the word in cell stands for? 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:33.560 Involuntary celibacy in cell, and it means that you haven't 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:36.400 had a date, you haven't had sex in perhaps a 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:40.080 long time or ever. And that's not by your choice. 0:05:40.360 --> 0:05:42.800 It's not like you're saving it for marriage. It's not 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:45.640 like you are waiting for miss right. You want to 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:49.040 get laid and you can't. Now, whose fault is that? 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:53.080 When you listen to guys who claim to be in cells, 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:55.559 it's not their fault, it's the fault of women. 0:05:55.920 --> 0:05:56.160 Here. 0:05:56.200 --> 0:05:59.000 You have all these women, thanks to feminism, thanks to 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:03.719 women's liberation, all these girls wearing really tight clothes, really hot, 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:08.920 really beautiful, throwing it out there and just inviting you 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:11.680 to come on to them, and then they turn you down. 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:15.680 Whose fault is that? It's their fault? Because you see, 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:20.120 men don't see. So the involuntary celibacy is I want, 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:24.440 I'm not getting Whose fault is that and they blame 0:06:24.839 --> 0:06:28.200 the women. Women are you know, sexually aegentic. They have 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:30.560 their own voice, they know what they want. They just 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:33.240 don't want it with me, and clearly that's their fault. 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:36.520 I'm plenty nice, good looking, I dress well, I'm trying 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:38.880 really hard, you know, and they still turn me down. 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:42.919 What's wrong with them? Now? Once upon a time you 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:46.200 would answer that question not with what's wrong with them, 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:49.280 but what's wrong with me? One of the great things 0:06:49.320 --> 0:06:53.279 about the Internet is it provides instant community for people 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:57.479 who feel isolated, lonely, etc. And so you might have been, 0:06:57.600 --> 0:06:59.960 you know, just sat in your bedroom and you know, 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:03.680 be grumpy. But with the Internet, there are other guys going, yeah, 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:06.240 I get you, bro, I completely understand man, I know 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:09.000 what you're feeling. That that happened to me too, and 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:11.480 you have a bond. You have a community of self 0:07:11.480 --> 0:07:12.520 perceived victims. 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:18.240 One of the most persistent questions that has surfaced is 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:20.920 whether or not Brian Koeberger could have been an inceel. 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:25.200 Does his background and behavior fit the profile of someone 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:28.840 drawn to this community, and if so, what would that 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:32.200 mean about his mindset, his motivations, and the way he 0:07:32.240 --> 0:07:35.760 saw the world. To help us break this down here 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:39.280 Stephanie Leidecker, joined by crime analyst Body Movin. 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:44.840 We know that he belittled women. He treated female students 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:48.440 worse than male students. He called one woman a bitch 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:52.080 at Seven Sirens Brewing Company after she rejected his advances, 0:07:52.080 --> 0:07:54.800 and if I remember correctly, he got booted from that 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:55.360 bar for that. 0:07:55.880 --> 0:07:59.160 We don't know of him having many girlfriends. We also 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:02.240 know that in high school there were reports made on 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:07.520 him from fellow female students basically saying that they were 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:11.080 uncomfortable in some way. And again we've tried to find 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:15.040 more information about that. Those files are sealed, and respectfully 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:18.160 we move on. But look, this is somebody who tracks. 0:08:18.600 --> 0:08:21.040 He was spending a ton of time online for an 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:25.200 extended period of time, obviously COVID adding to this. But 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:28.560 here he goes off to university and again seems to 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:30.560 have a chip on his shoulders when it comes to 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:33.760 actually dealing with any women at any time. 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:37.760 Specifically, the Idaho State Police reports about his interactions with 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:41.280 female students at WSU, he was dismissive. He'd said things 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:43.839 like he wouldn't date broken women, and. 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:47.320 To that end, once he had gotten too university where 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:51.360 he was studying to become a criminology doctor. He was 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:56.359 getting his PhD in criminology, and during that time, students reported, 0:08:56.600 --> 0:09:00.640 specifically female students reported that they did not even want 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:02.920 to go to office hours to deal with him on 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:06.880 any level because they felt frankly unsafe, even so far 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:10.360 as to say they would walk to their cars accompanied 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:13.839 by somebody because they were afraid Brian Coburger might start 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:16.200 walking out with them and they wouldn't know how to 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:19.080 get rid of them. Listen, he lacked social cues. We 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:20.800 can cough that up to a lot of things. 0:09:20.880 --> 0:09:21.120 Either. 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:23.760 He was just always the odd kid who was bullied 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:26.280 and left out of the club and learned to resent 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:29.960 that because look, ultimately, Brian Coberger, by his own admission, 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:35.120 killed four extremely loved and popular students who seemingly had 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:37.920 it all. They had fun lives, they had many friends, 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:41.640 they were going big places, and Brian Coburger didn't like it. 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:44.640 There doesn't seem to be any real known connection between 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:49.640 the Idaho massacre victims and Brian Coburger. Their light was 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:52.000 so bright that he had to dim it himself. 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:54.960 Like I said before, he in talking with that other 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:59.040 female WSU student she said that he said he would 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:00.520 not date broke it women. 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:03.160 He idolized women. 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:07.120 That he held in beautiful standards, right, like the Kayley's 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:09.120 and the Maddies and the Zanas of this world, who 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:13.240 are literally beautiful, right, wouldn't if there was some kind 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:14.960 of defect with you, he didn't want a thing to 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:16.920 do with you. Right, That's kind of the impression I 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:20.520 got from reading those ISP reports. And that's very in 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:24.720 cell white, Okay. And he would say things like what 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:25.920 did he say about procreation? 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:28.760 Like whether there was that handicapped girl, that there was 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:31.600 somebody who was handicapped, you know, air quote, or somebody 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:34.800 who was disabled, and he straight up asked, would you 0:10:34.880 --> 0:10:38.280 even consider pro creating because your condition? 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:41.440 And just think about that? Who says that out loud? 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:45.000 And we know now that many reports were made against 0:10:45.120 --> 0:10:47.840 him and that he gave people a really bad feeling. 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:50.400 And I think that's the takeaway Number one. We know 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:53.439 for a fact that Brian Coberger, who seemingly was obsessed 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:56.840 with the notion of crime, he was literally studying what 0:10:56.960 --> 0:11:00.000 he has now been convicted of, but he didn't see 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:02.280 to get on with women. He spent a lot of 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:05.880 time by himself isolated and online. And that's I think 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:08.840 the important piece of this. One person could be both 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:12.280 things at the exact same time. Somebody could present very 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:17.080 smart and articulate and clever, as he must have, and 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:19.560 then on the flip of that, you know full well 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:22.840 that there is hate brewing within him, and that hate 0:11:22.840 --> 0:11:25.559 turned to murder. And the reason that we're even discussing 0:11:25.600 --> 0:11:28.559 this is that we need to better understand where this 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:31.160 dark web can take you and how a person can 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:32.319 actually be radicalized. 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:35.120 Yeah, and you know, the definition of in cells is 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:38.760 involuntarily sulibate, and I do believe that Brian Coberger was 0:11:39.000 --> 0:11:43.440 involuntarily sulibate. Okay, so by definition alone, he is an inceel. 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:47.000 But the in cells that we're talking about congregate online 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:49.520 and they talk to one another and they get deeper 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:52.959 and deeper and deeper into that rabbit hole of self 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:56.680 loathing and self pity. And I just don't see Brian 0:11:56.760 --> 0:12:01.120 Koberger being online, being able to effectively communicate with other people, 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:03.080 and being radicalized in that manner. 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:08.559 Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:22.560 a moment. Just because Brian Coberger may not have been 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:26.160 radicalized online doesn't mean he couldn't have picked up this 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:27.880 information about in cells. 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:33.440 Elsewhere was Brian Coberger's brutal murder of four college roommates 0:12:33.480 --> 0:12:35.920 inspired by this monster. 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:41.760 Oll slaughter every single spoiled, stuck up, blonde slut. 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:46.440 Elliott Roger murdered six University of California Santa Barbara students 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:50.680 in twenty fourteen with his arsenal of knives, pistols, and 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:54.319 his car as a weapon. Twenty two year old Roger 0:12:54.520 --> 0:12:58.400 was an in cell, an involuntary celibate, and as scene 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:00.600 as an icon by other cells. 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:04.040 You never showed me any mercy, and so I will 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:04.920 show you none. 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:08.760 Coberger studied Rogers' rampage for his criminology course at the 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:10.920 Sales University in Pennsylvania. 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:20.240 Here again, sociologist and masculinities expert, doctor Michael Kimmel. 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:25.959 Elliott Rogers is sort of a touchstone figure among in cells. 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:28.840 He felt like he had done everything right. He was 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:32.000 good looking and smart and interesting, and he had a 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:34.920 good personality and all of these things, and yet he 0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:37.760 couldn't get a date, and he began to blame women. 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:40.960 He went down that kind of very very dark path 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:44.480 to blaming all women for his problems, and he decided 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:46.600 at some point that he was either going to have 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:49.720 to kill himself and take as many of them with 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:52.559 him as he could. His suicide note was all filled 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:54.680 with his entitlement, like you don't give me what I 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:57.480 want kind of stuff. But he didn't call himself an insul. 0:13:57.559 --> 0:13:59.880 He was just angry. He took it out on women. 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:04.000 He blamed women, But in cell culture embraced him as 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:07.199 a kind of Oh that's you know, he did what 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:10.040 we all think about, right, And what he thought of 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:13.800 what he did was he got even. That's I think 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:17.520 a key here is that in cel there may be 0:14:17.600 --> 0:14:22.000 a motive in some cases to get even. I don't 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:24.960 just you know, get mad. I get even they hurt me, 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:28.800 I will hurt them. 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:32.760 At the Sales University, Brian Coberger and his classmates study 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:36.200 the case of Elliott Roger. Roger is the twenty two 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:40.160 year old who in twenty fourteen murdered six people and 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:45.160 injured dozens more near UC Santa Barbara. Some classmates remember 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:49.480 Coburger seeming strangely indifferent to the horror of the rampage. 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:52.520 Roger was later embraced by the in cell community and 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:55.920 That connection has led some to question whether Coberger's studies 0:14:56.000 --> 0:14:58.960 of Roger may have played a role in his own crimes. 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:04.080 Here again, Stephanie Leideker in crime analyst Body movin to 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:04.960 break this down. 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:13.480 Brian Coburger participated in learning about Elliott Roger, and by 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:17.440 some accounts, he seemed extremely unphased. So does that mean 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:21.760 he was discounting this in cell ideology or was it 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:24.000 just something embedded in him and he didn't give it 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:26.720 too much thought. We do know that Brian Coberger had 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:30.200 a hard time meeting girls, had multiple women file reports 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:33.479 against him, both in high school and at university. 0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:36.840 This seems to be a pattern in the in cell community. 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:41.120 I do know they claimed Elliott Roger, so he is 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:44.240 their hero. He is their saint, you know, Saint Elliot, 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:47.640 et cetera, et cetera. His his manifesto included ideologies that 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:50.240 he agreed with. But we don't know if Coburger was 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:53.280 actually inspired by Elliott Rodgers, if he followed them closely 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:56.360 even after learning about him at the sales. Just because 0:15:56.400 --> 0:15:59.960 he seemed like unphased by his crimes doesn't really prove anything. 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:02.440 We don't know if he was on any insull websites 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:05.600 like four chan, or like incel I or any of 0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:09.800 those radicalization pipeline websites. So even though it's an interesting 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:12.760 theory that he could have been inspired by insel idol 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:15.160 Elliott Rodgers, we just don't have any concrete proof. 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:19.920 I mean, listen, it's in the conversation Brian Coberger his arrest, 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:23.040 this lone wolf. Why would he possibly want to hurt 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:25.640 the lives of people who had so much ahead of 0:16:25.680 --> 0:16:29.640 them because he was radicalized potentially online. Now again that's 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:33.240 wildly debated. We are not labeling him an inceel, but 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:37.680 that conversation only continued further once he was arrested in 0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:40.960 awaiting trial, once he confessed, and he didn't even have 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:43.840 to allocate, We're left kind of putting our hands in 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:45.720 the air, not knowing the final outcome. 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:52.280 We as sociologist and masculinities expert doctor Michael Kimmel for 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:55.200 his thoughts on whether Brian Coberger could be considered an 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:58.560 in cell and whether the in cell community might claim 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:02.440 him much like they did with Elliott Roger. He's joined 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:05.400 by KAT Studio's producer Alison Bankston. 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:09.400 A lot of people have suspected he could be an inceell. 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:11.720 You know, he didn't have to when he pled guilty, 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:14.240 he didn't have to give an allocution. So people may 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:16.560 never know why he did what he did and were 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:19.439 forced to kind of come up with theories about what 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:21.960 his motive could be. And he was known to be 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:25.040 a sexist. A lot of people think why target for 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:27.600 innocent people he had no connection to. You know, a 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:29.399 lot of people are thinking he had to be an 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:31.320 insul that's why he killed these people, because it doesn't 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:33.880 make sense. You know, why else would it make sense 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:36.280 that he'd target four innocent people, you know, a really 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:39.879 popular guy and then three beautiful girls. What do you 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:42.840 make of this theory that you know, Brian Coberger could 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:45.280 have been an in cell? How do you respond to 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:47.720 this theory that's kind of been floating around for the 0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:48.920 past few years. 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:53.280 It could have nothing to do with being an insult or, 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:55.520 it could have everything to do with it. We don't know, 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:59.200 and in the absence of any kind of information from him, 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:02.920 I take to develop a kind of theory about it. 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:05.600 And there's no evidence that he ever visited any of 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:08.400 their websites, participated in any of their jack rooms, none. 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:11.639 Whatever my feeling about this is that is that within 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:15.080 the culture. Now, let's be really clear about this. Ninety 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:18.600 nine percent of people who might consider themselves in cells 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:21.760 never act on it around women. They go to these 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:24.879 places in the manosphere in some ways, I'll put this 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:29.399 in quotation marks harmlessly to seek support and comradeship and 0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:32.359 community with others. But it's they're not going to act 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:34.679 on it. And I don't think there's any reason to 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:39.200 suspect that Brian Koberger acted on those feelings for those reasons. 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:41.680 Do you think in cells will try to claim Brian 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:44.560 Coberger like they did with Elliott Rodgers? They see this 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:46.840 guy who is sexist. Reports a come out that he 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:49.240 treated women horribly, that he had a hard time getting 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:51.560 a girlfriend, that he just kind of seemed like that 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:55.199 in cell type, you know, reclusive, frustrated with women, created 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:58.399 his female students much harder than male students. Just all 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:00.879 kinds of reports like this. Do you think that the 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:04.160 in cell community could see Brian Colberger as their next 0:19:04.160 --> 0:19:05.000 Elliott Rodgers? 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:07.360 Or if I were part of the in cell community, 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:10.719 I would be very wary of people assuming that he 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:12.520 was an insult just because he was a man and 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:15.280 he killed women. And he killed young attractive women. It 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:18.800 wasn't just that he killed women, you know, randomly, So 0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:22.399 I don't know. I think I would be Remember that 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:26.280 the overwhelming majority of in cels, people who would even 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:29.120 describe themselves as in cels, would never even remotely think 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:31.200 of acting on it like that, never, you know, would 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:33.320 not cross their mind. They're very content to be in 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:36.840 their internet, in their online community, you know, talking to 0:19:36.920 --> 0:19:39.919 each other, supporting each other, and basically and supporting each 0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:42.960 other with this misguided idea that it's women's fault. But 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:45.560 so if I were in the in cell community, I 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:48.640 would not claim him, especially in the absence of any 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:52.320 evidence that he was one of us. And secondly, I 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:56.439 wouldn't want him to be imposed on us simply because 0:19:56.480 --> 0:19:58.320 he was a guy who killed women. So I would 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:00.240 be very wary of it. I don't think that they're 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:02.840 going to embrace him the way that Elliott Roger was 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:05.840 very clear, very you know, very descriptive about is who 0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:06.680 he blamed and. 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:09.320 Why and how can we stop in cells? How can 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:12.440 we intervene before someone decides to join a community like this. 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:15.800 Can people who see someone who they think, you know, 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:18.680 could adapt to these ideologies how can they jump in 0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:21.159 and stop them from joining this community. 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:25.320 Well, there's some data that connects a lot of these 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:30.159 different issues because one of the things that psychologists have 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:36.800 found that basically courages resilience among young people is especially 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:39.840 this is for young men. What would predict their resilience, 0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:42.800 what would predict their ability to navigate these kinds of 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:48.080 lows in their lives? This the depression, unhappiness, this loneliness, 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:50.600 this feeling like you're not getting what you want. And 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:53.240 two of the things that they that they suggest one 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:57.439 is a good male friend, not a bro, but a friend, 0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:00.439 someone you can talk to about your feeling someone you 0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:03.399 can talk to who validates you that you you know, 0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:05.359 you know, I get you, bro, you're still you know 0:21:05.440 --> 0:21:08.520 you're you're really a man and it's okay, it's you'll 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:12.479 be fine, it'll happen. And also a good female friend. 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:16.000 I would be willing to suggest that large numbers of 0:21:16.040 --> 0:21:19.080 in cels have very few female friends who they can 0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:21.840 really talk to about their feelings. The world that they 0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:25.440 live in is largely a fantasy about what women's lives 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:27.879 are like, that all these women are so hot and 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:31.240 they're so sexy, and they're so available, but just not 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:34.359 for me. I think that's pretty much a fantasy. And 0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:38.360 they don't really get to know girls as friends and 0:21:38.359 --> 0:21:42.800 and other guys as real friends. So real contact, real 0:21:42.880 --> 0:21:47.359 friendship may be a one of the therapeutic antidote to 0:21:47.560 --> 0:21:51.960 the kind of despair and loneliness that many in cells feel. 0:21:55.320 --> 0:21:57.359 Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 0:21:57.400 --> 0:22:11.639 a moment. Here again. Stephanie Leiedeger and crime analyst Body Movin. 0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:13.800 I've talked about this a lot. 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:17.960 I've talked about why we continue to look for explanations 0:22:17.960 --> 0:22:21.960 and the behavior of Brian Coberger because I believe it's 0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:25.760 too scary to face reality. And the reality is, he's 0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:29.640 the literal boogeyman. Okay, we can't control him, we can't 0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:30.800 put him in a category. 0:22:30.960 --> 0:22:31.120 Right. 0:22:31.400 --> 0:22:33.720 If we can put him in a category like say Incel, 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:36.360 then we can explain it and we can monitor that 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:39.359 and we can stay on top of it and stay safe. Right, 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:42.480 Brian Coberger isn't fitting any of these categories we're trying 0:22:42.480 --> 0:22:45.600 to put him in, and that's scary. He's the literal boogeyman. 0:22:45.920 --> 0:22:46.600 It's so true. 0:22:46.640 --> 0:22:48.840 And by the way, without having this conversation in a 0:22:48.880 --> 0:22:51.159 meaningful way. We don't know what to look for and 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:55.280 how to prevent another Elliott Roger or another Brian Coburger 0:22:55.359 --> 0:22:59.000