Speaker 1: He spent a lot of time by himself, isolated and online.
Speaker 2: Elliott Rogers, he was good looking, and smart and interesting,
Speaker 2: he had a good personality and all of these things,
Speaker 2: and yet he couldn't get a date. And he decided
Speaker 2: at some point to blaming all women for his problems.
Speaker 3: This is the Idaho Massacre a production of KAT Studios
Speaker 3: and iHeartRadio, Season three, episode seven, The in Cell Theory
Speaker 3: Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KAT Studios, with Stephanie Leideker,
Speaker 3: Alison Bankston, and Gabriel Castillo. On July twenty third, twenty
Speaker 3: twenty five, Brian Coberger was sentenced to four consecutive life
Speaker 3: sentences for the brutal murders of Madison Mogan, Killy Gonsalvez,
Speaker 3: Xana Kernodle, and eth Than Shapin. For many, his guilty
Speaker 3: plea felt like a long awaited end to a nightmare
Speaker 3: chapter in Moscow, Idaho. But for others the closure was bittersweet.
Speaker 3: They still carry unanswered questions and anger. One of the
Speaker 3: most striking omissions was that Brian Coberger was never required
Speaker 3: to explain himself. Prosecutor Bill Thompson did not demand an allocution,
Speaker 3: meaning Coburger never stood in court and stated why he
Speaker 3: committed these unspeakable crimes. He offered no insight, no apology,
Speaker 3: and no explanation. And so the question of why still
Speaker 3: looms large. What could have driven him to do something
Speaker 3: so heinous? What was the motive? One theory that is
Speaker 3: circulated is that Brian Coberger may have been an insult
Speaker 3: an involuntary celibate, that someone who feels rejected, especially by women,
Speaker 3: and and who sometimes channels that rejection into rage and violence.
Speaker 3: Could Coberger have targeted one of the young women he
Speaker 3: murdered because of this mindset? Is there real weight to
Speaker 3: this theory or is it a label that's too easily applied?
Speaker 3: And perhaps the biggest question of all, what does it
Speaker 3: actually mean to be an in cel? Dell bunpack these questions.
Speaker 3: We turned to sociologist doctor Michael Kimmel. He's a leading
Speaker 3: expert on men's studies and masculinities. He joins us to
Speaker 3: explain what the in cell community is, what it isn't,
Speaker 3: and how it fits into the larger conversation around Brian Coberger.
Speaker 3: He's joined by our producer Alison Bankston.
Speaker 4: If you can just tell me a little bit about
Speaker 4: your career and your background.
Speaker 5: How did you find kind of your niche in gender studies?
Speaker 2: Well, my PhD is in sociology, and I was a
Speaker 2: sociology professor for many years, and swirling around the academy
Speaker 2: was you know, feminism was women's studies, and it was just,
Speaker 2: you know, it was too compelling and too important, I
Speaker 2: think to ignore. Then I realized early on that there
Speaker 2: really weren't very good studies research done on men as men.
Speaker 2: You know, there was a lot of stuff happening for
Speaker 2: people which by which they interviewed men, and then there
Speaker 2: were work on women, but there wasn't anything that really
Speaker 2: addressed masculinity or gender and how it affected men. So
Speaker 2: in early nineteen ninety I decided I was going to
Speaker 2: write a history of the idea of masculinity in America,
Speaker 2: which had never been written. That was my first book,
Speaker 2: Man Who in America? And then from then I've worked
Speaker 2: on young men ages sixteen to twenty six in a
Speaker 2: book called Guyland, And most recently my work has been
Speaker 2: on what I called angry white men. Why are white
Speaker 2: men so angry? Why are they so resentful? Why do
Speaker 2: they feel like they're such victims? My book angry white
Speaker 2: Men came out in twenty thirteen, and the word in
Speaker 2: cell hadn't been invented it.
Speaker 4: What is the manosphere for people who don't know or
Speaker 4: never heard of it before?
Speaker 5: Can you tell me exactly what that is?
Speaker 2: Well, the manosphere is a general term for that part
Speaker 2: of the Internet that has been appropriated by and colonized
Speaker 2: by a large number of men who use it as
Speaker 2: a platform for exploring some things that are you know,
Speaker 2: good things like how do you be a good father?
Speaker 2: To a place where they can air their grievances about
Speaker 2: their own victimization. The manosphere tends to be very white,
Speaker 2: somewhat middle and working class, and it tends to be
Speaker 2: on the whole angry. Now the manosphere in general begins,
Speaker 2: I think the real the beginning of the manosphere as
Speaker 2: a place where men will come to air these kinds
Speaker 2: of grievances begin with what was called gamergate in the
Speaker 2: mid to late nineteen nineties. And Gamergate was basically an
Speaker 2: effort by young male gamers to keep women out of
Speaker 2: the gaming environment because there were suddenly all of these
Speaker 2: multiplayer games. They were these online games, people were gaming live,
Speaker 2: and the guys thought that this was like part of
Speaker 2: their life. And when all these girls started, you know,
Speaker 2: becoming gamers, they really resented it. They felt it was
Speaker 2: like an invasion of their space. So the Man of
Speaker 2: Sphere was an attempt to sort of say, Okay, we're
Speaker 2: gonna build border boundaries. What the word in cell stands for?
Speaker 2: Involuntary celibacy in cell, and it means that you haven't
Speaker 2: had a date, you haven't had sex in perhaps a
Speaker 2: long time or ever. And that's not by your choice.
Speaker 2: It's not like you're saving it for marriage. It's not
Speaker 2: like you are waiting for miss right. You want to
Speaker 2: get laid and you can't. Now, whose fault is that?
Speaker 2: When you listen to guys who claim to be in cells,
Speaker 2: it's not their fault, it's the fault of women.
Speaker 5: Here.
Speaker 2: You have all these women, thanks to feminism, thanks to
Speaker 2: women's liberation, all these girls wearing really tight clothes, really hot,
Speaker 2: really beautiful, throwing it out there and just inviting you
Speaker 2: to come on to them, and then they turn you down.
Speaker 2: Whose fault is that? It's their fault? Because you see,
Speaker 2: men don't see. So the involuntary celibacy is I want,
Speaker 2: I'm not getting Whose fault is that and they blame
Speaker 2: the women. Women are you know, sexually aegentic. They have
Speaker 2: their own voice, they know what they want. They just
Speaker 2: don't want it with me, and clearly that's their fault.
Speaker 2: I'm plenty nice, good looking, I dress well, I'm trying
Speaker 2: really hard, you know, and they still turn me down.
Speaker 2: What's wrong with them? Now? Once upon a time you
Speaker 2: would answer that question not with what's wrong with them,
Speaker 2: but what's wrong with me? One of the great things
Speaker 2: about the Internet is it provides instant community for people
Speaker 2: who feel isolated, lonely, etc. And so you might have been,
Speaker 2: you know, just sat in your bedroom and you know,
Speaker 2: be grumpy. But with the Internet, there are other guys going, yeah,
Speaker 2: I get you, bro, I completely understand man, I know
Speaker 2: what you're feeling. That that happened to me too, and
Speaker 2: you have a bond. You have a community of self
Speaker 2: perceived victims.
Speaker 3: One of the most persistent questions that has surfaced is
Speaker 3: whether or not Brian Koeberger could have been an inceel.
Speaker 3: Does his background and behavior fit the profile of someone
Speaker 3: drawn to this community, and if so, what would that
Speaker 3: mean about his mindset, his motivations, and the way he
Speaker 3: saw the world. To help us break this down here
Speaker 3: Stephanie Leidecker, joined by crime analyst Body Movin.
Speaker 6: We know that he belittled women. He treated female students
Speaker 6: worse than male students. He called one woman a bitch
Speaker 6: at Seven Sirens Brewing Company after she rejected his advances,
Speaker 6: and if I remember correctly, he got booted from that
Speaker 6: bar for that.
Speaker 1: We don't know of him having many girlfriends. We also
Speaker 1: know that in high school there were reports made on
Speaker 1: him from fellow female students basically saying that they were
Speaker 1: uncomfortable in some way. And again we've tried to find
Speaker 1: more information about that. Those files are sealed, and respectfully
Speaker 1: we move on. But look, this is somebody who tracks.
Speaker 1: He was spending a ton of time online for an
Speaker 1: extended period of time, obviously COVID adding to this. But
Speaker 1: here he goes off to university and again seems to
Speaker 1: have a chip on his shoulders when it comes to
Speaker 1: actually dealing with any women at any time.
Speaker 6: Specifically, the Idaho State Police reports about his interactions with
Speaker 6: female students at WSU, he was dismissive. He'd said things
Speaker 6: like he wouldn't date broken women, and.
Speaker 1: To that end, once he had gotten too university where
Speaker 1: he was studying to become a criminology doctor. He was
Speaker 1: getting his PhD in criminology, and during that time, students reported,
Speaker 1: specifically female students reported that they did not even want
Speaker 1: to go to office hours to deal with him on
Speaker 1: any level because they felt frankly unsafe, even so far
Speaker 1: as to say they would walk to their cars accompanied
Speaker 1: by somebody because they were afraid Brian Coburger might start
Speaker 1: walking out with them and they wouldn't know how to
Speaker 1: get rid of them. Listen, he lacked social cues. We
Speaker 1: can cough that up to a lot of things.
Speaker 7: Either.
Speaker 1: He was just always the odd kid who was bullied
Speaker 1: and left out of the club and learned to resent
Speaker 1: that because look, ultimately, Brian Coberger, by his own admission,
Speaker 1: killed four extremely loved and popular students who seemingly had
Speaker 1: it all. They had fun lives, they had many friends,
Speaker 1: they were going big places, and Brian Coburger didn't like it.
Speaker 1: There doesn't seem to be any real known connection between
Speaker 1: the Idaho massacre victims and Brian Coburger. Their light was
Speaker 1: so bright that he had to dim it himself.
Speaker 6: Like I said before, he in talking with that other
Speaker 6: female WSU student she said that he said he would
Speaker 6: not date broke it women.
Speaker 7: He idolized women.
Speaker 6: That he held in beautiful standards, right, like the Kayley's
Speaker 6: and the Maddies and the Zanas of this world, who
Speaker 6: are literally beautiful, right, wouldn't if there was some kind
Speaker 6: of defect with you, he didn't want a thing to
Speaker 6: do with you. Right, That's kind of the impression I
Speaker 6: got from reading those ISP reports. And that's very in
Speaker 6: cell white, Okay. And he would say things like what
Speaker 6: did he say about procreation?
Speaker 1: Like whether there was that handicapped girl, that there was
Speaker 1: somebody who was handicapped, you know, air quote, or somebody
Speaker 1: who was disabled, and he straight up asked, would you
Speaker 1: even consider pro creating because your condition?
Speaker 7: And just think about that? Who says that out loud?
Speaker 1: And we know now that many reports were made against
Speaker 1: him and that he gave people a really bad feeling.
Speaker 1: And I think that's the takeaway Number one. We know
Speaker 1: for a fact that Brian Coberger, who seemingly was obsessed
Speaker 1: with the notion of crime, he was literally studying what
Speaker 1: he has now been convicted of, but he didn't see
Speaker 1: to get on with women. He spent a lot of
Speaker 1: time by himself isolated and online. And that's I think
Speaker 1: the important piece of this. One person could be both
Speaker 1: things at the exact same time. Somebody could present very
Speaker 1: smart and articulate and clever, as he must have, and
Speaker 1: then on the flip of that, you know full well
Speaker 1: that there is hate brewing within him, and that hate
Speaker 1: turned to murder. And the reason that we're even discussing
Speaker 1: this is that we need to better understand where this
Speaker 1: dark web can take you and how a person can
Speaker 1: actually be radicalized.
Speaker 6: Yeah, and you know, the definition of in cells is
Speaker 6: involuntarily sulibate, and I do believe that Brian Coberger was
Speaker 6: involuntarily sulibate. Okay, so by definition alone, he is an inceel.
Speaker 6: But the in cells that we're talking about congregate online
Speaker 6: and they talk to one another and they get deeper
Speaker 6: and deeper and deeper into that rabbit hole of self
Speaker 6: loathing and self pity. And I just don't see Brian
Speaker 6: Koberger being online, being able to effectively communicate with other people,
Speaker 6: and being radicalized in that manner.
Speaker 3: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
Speaker 3: a moment. Just because Brian Coberger may not have been
Speaker 3: radicalized online doesn't mean he couldn't have picked up this
Speaker 3: information about in cells.
Speaker 8: Elsewhere was Brian Coberger's brutal murder of four college roommates
Speaker 8: inspired by this monster.
Speaker 1: Oll slaughter every single spoiled, stuck up, blonde slut.
Speaker 8: Elliott Roger murdered six University of California Santa Barbara students
Speaker 8: in twenty fourteen with his arsenal of knives, pistols, and
Speaker 8: his car as a weapon. Twenty two year old Roger
Speaker 8: was an in cell, an involuntary celibate, and as scene
Speaker 8: as an icon by other cells.
Speaker 7: You never showed me any mercy, and so I will
Speaker 7: show you none.
Speaker 8: Coberger studied Rogers' rampage for his criminology course at the
Speaker 8: Sales University in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 3: Here again, sociologist and masculinities expert, doctor Michael Kimmel.
Speaker 2: Elliott Rogers is sort of a touchstone figure among in cells.
Speaker 2: He felt like he had done everything right. He was
Speaker 2: good looking and smart and interesting, and he had a
Speaker 2: good personality and all of these things, and yet he
Speaker 2: couldn't get a date, and he began to blame women.
Speaker 2: He went down that kind of very very dark path
Speaker 2: to blaming all women for his problems, and he decided
Speaker 2: at some point that he was either going to have
Speaker 2: to kill himself and take as many of them with
Speaker 2: him as he could. His suicide note was all filled
Speaker 2: with his entitlement, like you don't give me what I
Speaker 2: want kind of stuff. But he didn't call himself an insul.
Speaker 2: He was just angry. He took it out on women.
Speaker 2: He blamed women, But in cell culture embraced him as
Speaker 2: a kind of Oh that's you know, he did what
Speaker 2: we all think about, right, And what he thought of
Speaker 2: what he did was he got even. That's I think
Speaker 2: a key here is that in cel there may be
Speaker 2: a motive in some cases to get even. I don't
Speaker 2: just you know, get mad. I get even they hurt me,
Speaker 2: I will hurt them.
Speaker 3: At the Sales University, Brian Coberger and his classmates study
Speaker 3: the case of Elliott Roger. Roger is the twenty two
Speaker 3: year old who in twenty fourteen murdered six people and
Speaker 3: injured dozens more near UC Santa Barbara. Some classmates remember
Speaker 3: Coburger seeming strangely indifferent to the horror of the rampage.
Speaker 3: Roger was later embraced by the in cell community and
Speaker 3: That connection has led some to question whether Coberger's studies
Speaker 3: of Roger may have played a role in his own crimes.
Speaker 3: Here again, Stephanie Leideker in crime analyst Body movin to
Speaker 3: break this down.
Speaker 1: Brian Coburger participated in learning about Elliott Roger, and by
Speaker 1: some accounts, he seemed extremely unphased. So does that mean
Speaker 1: he was discounting this in cell ideology or was it
Speaker 1: just something embedded in him and he didn't give it
Speaker 1: too much thought. We do know that Brian Coberger had
Speaker 1: a hard time meeting girls, had multiple women file reports
Speaker 1: against him, both in high school and at university.
Speaker 7: This seems to be a pattern in the in cell community.
Speaker 6: I do know they claimed Elliott Roger, so he is
Speaker 6: their hero. He is their saint, you know, Saint Elliot,
Speaker 6: et cetera, et cetera. His his manifesto included ideologies that
Speaker 6: he agreed with. But we don't know if Coburger was
Speaker 6: actually inspired by Elliott Rodgers, if he followed them closely
Speaker 6: even after learning about him at the sales. Just because
Speaker 6: he seemed like unphased by his crimes doesn't really prove anything.
Speaker 6: We don't know if he was on any insull websites
Speaker 6: like four chan, or like incel I or any of
Speaker 6: those radicalization pipeline websites. So even though it's an interesting
Speaker 6: theory that he could have been inspired by insel idol
Speaker 6: Elliott Rodgers, we just don't have any concrete proof.
Speaker 1: I mean, listen, it's in the conversation Brian Coberger his arrest,
Speaker 1: this lone wolf. Why would he possibly want to hurt
Speaker 1: the lives of people who had so much ahead of
Speaker 1: them because he was radicalized potentially online. Now again that's
Speaker 1: wildly debated. We are not labeling him an inceel, but
Speaker 1: that conversation only continued further once he was arrested in
Speaker 1: awaiting trial, once he confessed, and he didn't even have
Speaker 1: to allocate, We're left kind of putting our hands in
Speaker 1: the air, not knowing the final outcome.
Speaker 3: We as sociologist and masculinities expert doctor Michael Kimmel for
Speaker 3: his thoughts on whether Brian Coberger could be considered an
Speaker 3: in cell and whether the in cell community might claim
Speaker 3: him much like they did with Elliott Roger. He's joined
Speaker 3: by KAT Studio's producer Alison Bankston.
Speaker 5: A lot of people have suspected he could be an inceell.
Speaker 4: You know, he didn't have to when he pled guilty,
Speaker 4: he didn't have to give an allocution. So people may
Speaker 4: never know why he did what he did and were
Speaker 4: forced to kind of come up with theories about what
Speaker 4: his motive could be. And he was known to be
Speaker 4: a sexist. A lot of people think why target for
Speaker 4: innocent people he had no connection to. You know, a
Speaker 4: lot of people are thinking he had to be an
Speaker 4: insul that's why he killed these people, because it doesn't
Speaker 4: make sense. You know, why else would it make sense
Speaker 4: that he'd target four innocent people, you know, a really
Speaker 4: popular guy and then three beautiful girls. What do you
Speaker 4: make of this theory that you know, Brian Coberger could
Speaker 4: have been an in cell? How do you respond to
Speaker 4: this theory that's kind of been floating around for the
Speaker 4: past few years.
Speaker 2: It could have nothing to do with being an insult or,
Speaker 2: it could have everything to do with it. We don't know,
Speaker 2: and in the absence of any kind of information from him,
Speaker 2: I take to develop a kind of theory about it.
Speaker 2: And there's no evidence that he ever visited any of
Speaker 2: their websites, participated in any of their jack rooms, none.
Speaker 2: Whatever my feeling about this is that is that within
Speaker 2: the culture. Now, let's be really clear about this. Ninety
Speaker 2: nine percent of people who might consider themselves in cells
Speaker 2: never act on it around women. They go to these
Speaker 2: places in the manosphere in some ways, I'll put this
Speaker 2: in quotation marks harmlessly to seek support and comradeship and
Speaker 2: community with others. But it's they're not going to act
Speaker 2: on it. And I don't think there's any reason to
Speaker 2: suspect that Brian Koberger acted on those feelings for those reasons.
Speaker 4: Do you think in cells will try to claim Brian
Speaker 4: Coberger like they did with Elliott Rodgers? They see this
Speaker 4: guy who is sexist. Reports a come out that he
Speaker 4: treated women horribly, that he had a hard time getting
Speaker 4: a girlfriend, that he just kind of seemed like that
Speaker 4: in cell type, you know, reclusive, frustrated with women, created
Speaker 4: his female students much harder than male students. Just all
Speaker 4: kinds of reports like this. Do you think that the
Speaker 4: in cell community could see Brian Colberger as their next
Speaker 4: Elliott Rodgers?
Speaker 2: Or if I were part of the in cell community,
Speaker 2: I would be very wary of people assuming that he
Speaker 2: was an insult just because he was a man and
Speaker 2: he killed women. And he killed young attractive women. It
Speaker 2: wasn't just that he killed women, you know, randomly, So
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think I would be Remember that
Speaker 2: the overwhelming majority of in cels, people who would even
Speaker 2: describe themselves as in cels, would never even remotely think
Speaker 2: of acting on it like that, never, you know, would
Speaker 2: not cross their mind. They're very content to be in
Speaker 2: their internet, in their online community, you know, talking to
Speaker 2: each other, supporting each other, and basically and supporting each
Speaker 2: other with this misguided idea that it's women's fault. But
Speaker 2: so if I were in the in cell community, I
Speaker 2: would not claim him, especially in the absence of any
Speaker 2: evidence that he was one of us. And secondly, I
Speaker 2: wouldn't want him to be imposed on us simply because
Speaker 2: he was a guy who killed women. So I would
Speaker 2: be very wary of it. I don't think that they're
Speaker 2: going to embrace him the way that Elliott Roger was
Speaker 2: very clear, very you know, very descriptive about is who
Speaker 2: he blamed and.
Speaker 4: Why and how can we stop in cells? How can
Speaker 4: we intervene before someone decides to join a community like this.
Speaker 4: Can people who see someone who they think, you know,
Speaker 4: could adapt to these ideologies how can they jump in
Speaker 4: and stop them from joining this community.
Speaker 2: Well, there's some data that connects a lot of these
Speaker 2: different issues because one of the things that psychologists have
Speaker 2: found that basically courages resilience among young people is especially
Speaker 2: this is for young men. What would predict their resilience,
Speaker 2: what would predict their ability to navigate these kinds of
Speaker 2: lows in their lives? This the depression, unhappiness, this loneliness,
Speaker 2: this feeling like you're not getting what you want. And
Speaker 2: two of the things that they that they suggest one
Speaker 2: is a good male friend, not a bro, but a friend,
Speaker 2: someone you can talk to about your feeling someone you
Speaker 2: can talk to who validates you that you you know,
Speaker 2: you know, I get you, bro, you're still you know
Speaker 2: you're you're really a man and it's okay, it's you'll
Speaker 2: be fine, it'll happen. And also a good female friend.
Speaker 2: I would be willing to suggest that large numbers of
Speaker 2: in cels have very few female friends who they can
Speaker 2: really talk to about their feelings. The world that they
Speaker 2: live in is largely a fantasy about what women's lives
Speaker 2: are like, that all these women are so hot and
Speaker 2: they're so sexy, and they're so available, but just not
Speaker 2: for me. I think that's pretty much a fantasy. And
Speaker 2: they don't really get to know girls as friends and
Speaker 2: and other guys as real friends. So real contact, real
Speaker 2: friendship may be a one of the therapeutic antidote to
Speaker 2: the kind of despair and loneliness that many in cells feel.
Speaker 3: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
Speaker 3: a moment. Here again. Stephanie Leiedeger and crime analyst Body Movin.
Speaker 7: I've talked about this a lot.
Speaker 6: I've talked about why we continue to look for explanations
Speaker 6: and the behavior of Brian Coberger because I believe it's
Speaker 6: too scary to face reality. And the reality is, he's
Speaker 6: the literal boogeyman. Okay, we can't control him, we can't
Speaker 6: put him in a category.
Speaker 7: Right.
Speaker 6: If we can put him in a category like say Incel,
Speaker 6: then we can explain it and we can monitor that
Speaker 6: and we can stay on top of it and stay safe. Right,
Speaker 6: Brian Coberger isn't fitting any of these categories we're trying
Speaker 6: to put him in, and that's scary. He's the literal boogeyman.
Speaker 6: It's so true.
Speaker 1: And by the way, without having this conversation in a
Speaker 1: meaningful way. We don't know what to look for and
Speaker 1: how to prevent another Elliott Roger or another Brian Coburger
Speaker 1: from causing mass destruction. Yet again, and listen, not all
Speaker 1: white men are murderers in.
Speaker 7: Serial killers, obviously.
Speaker 1: However, the in cell community is really it's the young
Speaker 1: white man who's spending way too much time online and
Speaker 1: they're getting radicalized online without anybody knowing. Coburger sure does
Speaker 1: check a lout of the right boxes, and yeah, for
Speaker 1: sure there are some that he does not, But again
Speaker 1: we have to be looking at what could be a
Speaker 1: very scary reality. The new Boogeyman is the young, disenfranchised
Speaker 1: white boy living at home with add a job, with
Speaker 1: too much time on his hands. The question of whether
Speaker 1: Brian Coberger was an in cel still looms large. Some
Speaker 1: believe his treatment of women and his obsession with power
Speaker 1: and control fit the pattern, Yet without any direct evidence
Speaker 1: that he identified with the community, were left with a
Speaker 1: haunting void, still wondering why he committed the brutal murders
Speaker 1: of Madison, Mogen, Callie Gonzalvez, Xanna Kern, and Ethan Chapin.
Speaker 1: To learn more about the in cell movement, check out
Speaker 1: our new podcast in Cells on the iHeartRadio app, Apple
Speaker 1: podcast or wherever you get your podcasts and join us
Speaker 1: next week, when Idaho State Police Detective Hugh Powell shares
Speaker 1: an inside look at what it was like to investigate
Speaker 1: one of the most shocking mass murders in recent memory.
Speaker 1: More on that next time. For more information on the
Speaker 1: case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Kat
Speaker 1: Underscore Studios. The Idaho Massacre is produced by Stephanie Leideker,
Speaker 1: Alison Bankston, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and
Speaker 1: sound design by Jeff Tooi music by Jared Aston. The
Speaker 1: Idaho Masacre is a production of KAT Studios and iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.