1 00:00:03,600 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: He spent a lot of time by himself, isolated and online. 2 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:11,959 Speaker 2: Elliott Rogers, he was good looking, and smart and interesting, 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 2: he had a good personality and all of these things, 4 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:17,440 Speaker 2: and yet he couldn't get a date. And he decided 5 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 2: at some point to blaming all women for his problems. 6 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 3: This is the Idaho Massacre a production of KAT Studios 7 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 3: and iHeartRadio, Season three, episode seven, The in Cell Theory 8 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 3: Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KAT Studios, with Stephanie Leideker, 9 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 3: Alison Bankston, and Gabriel Castillo. On July twenty third, twenty 10 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 3: twenty five, Brian Coberger was sentenced to four consecutive life 11 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 3: sentences for the brutal murders of Madison Mogan, Killy Gonsalvez, 12 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 3: Xana Kernodle, and eth Than Shapin. For many, his guilty 13 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 3: plea felt like a long awaited end to a nightmare 14 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 3: chapter in Moscow, Idaho. But for others the closure was bittersweet. 15 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 3: They still carry unanswered questions and anger. One of the 16 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 3: most striking omissions was that Brian Coberger was never required 17 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 3: to explain himself. Prosecutor Bill Thompson did not demand an allocution, 18 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 3: meaning Coburger never stood in court and stated why he 19 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 3: committed these unspeakable crimes. He offered no insight, no apology, 20 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 3: and no explanation. And so the question of why still 21 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,559 Speaker 3: looms large. What could have driven him to do something 22 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 3: so heinous? What was the motive? One theory that is 23 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 3: circulated is that Brian Coberger may have been an insult 24 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 3: an involuntary celibate, that someone who feels rejected, especially by women, 25 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 3: and and who sometimes channels that rejection into rage and violence. 26 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 3: Could Coberger have targeted one of the young women he 27 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:12,400 Speaker 3: murdered because of this mindset? Is there real weight to 28 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 3: this theory or is it a label that's too easily applied? 29 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 3: And perhaps the biggest question of all, what does it 30 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 3: actually mean to be an in cel? Dell bunpack these questions. 31 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 3: We turned to sociologist doctor Michael Kimmel. He's a leading 32 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 3: expert on men's studies and masculinities. He joins us to 33 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 3: explain what the in cell community is, what it isn't, 34 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,519 Speaker 3: and how it fits into the larger conversation around Brian Coberger. 35 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:45,119 Speaker 3: He's joined by our producer Alison Bankston. 36 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 4: If you can just tell me a little bit about 37 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:52,279 Speaker 4: your career and your background. 38 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,399 Speaker 5: How did you find kind of your niche in gender studies? 39 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 2: Well, my PhD is in sociology, and I was a 40 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 2: sociology professor for many years, and swirling around the academy 41 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 2: was you know, feminism was women's studies, and it was just, 42 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 2: you know, it was too compelling and too important, I 43 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 2: think to ignore. Then I realized early on that there 44 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 2: really weren't very good studies research done on men as men. 45 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 2: You know, there was a lot of stuff happening for 46 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 2: people which by which they interviewed men, and then there 47 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 2: were work on women, but there wasn't anything that really 48 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 2: addressed masculinity or gender and how it affected men. So 49 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 2: in early nineteen ninety I decided I was going to 50 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 2: write a history of the idea of masculinity in America, 51 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 2: which had never been written. That was my first book, 52 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 2: Man Who in America? And then from then I've worked 53 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 2: on young men ages sixteen to twenty six in a 54 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 2: book called Guyland, And most recently my work has been 55 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 2: on what I called angry white men. Why are white 56 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 2: men so angry? Why are they so resentful? Why do 57 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 2: they feel like they're such victims? My book angry white 58 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 2: Men came out in twenty thirteen, and the word in 59 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 2: cell hadn't been invented it. 60 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 4: What is the manosphere for people who don't know or 61 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 4: never heard of it before? 62 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 5: Can you tell me exactly what that is? 63 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 2: Well, the manosphere is a general term for that part 64 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 2: of the Internet that has been appropriated by and colonized 65 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 2: by a large number of men who use it as 66 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 2: a platform for exploring some things that are you know, 67 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 2: good things like how do you be a good father? 68 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 2: To a place where they can air their grievances about 69 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:34,720 Speaker 2: their own victimization. The manosphere tends to be very white, 70 00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 2: somewhat middle and working class, and it tends to be 71 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 2: on the whole angry. Now the manosphere in general begins, 72 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 2: I think the real the beginning of the manosphere as 73 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 2: a place where men will come to air these kinds 74 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 2: of grievances begin with what was called gamergate in the 75 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 2: mid to late nineteen nineties. And Gamergate was basically an 76 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 2: effort by young male gamers to keep women out of 77 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 2: the gaming environment because there were suddenly all of these 78 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 2: multiplayer games. They were these online games, people were gaming live, 79 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 2: and the guys thought that this was like part of 80 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 2: their life. And when all these girls started, you know, 81 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 2: becoming gamers, they really resented it. They felt it was 82 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 2: like an invasion of their space. So the Man of 83 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 2: Sphere was an attempt to sort of say, Okay, we're 84 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 2: gonna build border boundaries. What the word in cell stands for? 85 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 2: Involuntary celibacy in cell, and it means that you haven't 86 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 2: had a date, you haven't had sex in perhaps a 87 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 2: long time or ever. And that's not by your choice. 88 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 2: It's not like you're saving it for marriage. It's not 89 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 2: like you are waiting for miss right. You want to 90 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 2: get laid and you can't. Now, whose fault is that? 91 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 2: When you listen to guys who claim to be in cells, 92 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:55,559 Speaker 2: it's not their fault, it's the fault of women. 93 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 5: Here. 94 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 2: You have all these women, thanks to feminism, thanks to 95 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 2: women's liberation, all these girls wearing really tight clothes, really hot, 96 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 2: really beautiful, throwing it out there and just inviting you 97 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 2: to come on to them, and then they turn you down. 98 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 2: Whose fault is that? It's their fault? Because you see, 99 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 2: men don't see. So the involuntary celibacy is I want, 100 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 2: I'm not getting Whose fault is that and they blame 101 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 2: the women. Women are you know, sexually aegentic. They have 102 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 2: their own voice, they know what they want. They just 103 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 2: don't want it with me, and clearly that's their fault. 104 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 2: I'm plenty nice, good looking, I dress well, I'm trying 105 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 2: really hard, you know, and they still turn me down. 106 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:42,919 Speaker 2: What's wrong with them? Now? Once upon a time you 107 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 2: would answer that question not with what's wrong with them, 108 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 2: but what's wrong with me? One of the great things 109 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 2: about the Internet is it provides instant community for people 110 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 2: who feel isolated, lonely, etc. And so you might have been, 111 00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 2: you know, just sat in your bedroom and you know, 112 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 2: be grumpy. But with the Internet, there are other guys going, yeah, 113 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 2: I get you, bro, I completely understand man, I know 114 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 2: what you're feeling. That that happened to me too, and 115 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 2: you have a bond. You have a community of self 116 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 2: perceived victims. 117 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 3: One of the most persistent questions that has surfaced is 118 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 3: whether or not Brian Koeberger could have been an inceel. 119 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 3: Does his background and behavior fit the profile of someone 120 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 3: drawn to this community, and if so, what would that 121 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 3: mean about his mindset, his motivations, and the way he 122 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 3: saw the world. To help us break this down here 123 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 3: Stephanie Leidecker, joined by crime analyst Body Movin. 124 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 6: We know that he belittled women. He treated female students 125 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 6: worse than male students. He called one woman a bitch 126 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 6: at Seven Sirens Brewing Company after she rejected his advances, 127 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 6: and if I remember correctly, he got booted from that 128 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 6: bar for that. 129 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: We don't know of him having many girlfriends. We also 130 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: know that in high school there were reports made on 131 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: him from fellow female students basically saying that they were 132 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: uncomfortable in some way. And again we've tried to find 133 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: more information about that. Those files are sealed, and respectfully 134 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: we move on. But look, this is somebody who tracks. 135 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: He was spending a ton of time online for an 136 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: extended period of time, obviously COVID adding to this. But 137 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: here he goes off to university and again seems to 138 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: have a chip on his shoulders when it comes to 139 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: actually dealing with any women at any time. 140 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 6: Specifically, the Idaho State Police reports about his interactions with 141 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 6: female students at WSU, he was dismissive. He'd said things 142 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:43,839 Speaker 6: like he wouldn't date broken women, and. 143 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 1: To that end, once he had gotten too university where 144 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: he was studying to become a criminology doctor. He was 145 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:56,359 Speaker 1: getting his PhD in criminology, and during that time, students reported, 146 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: specifically female students reported that they did not even want 147 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: to go to office hours to deal with him on 148 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: any level because they felt frankly unsafe, even so far 149 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: as to say they would walk to their cars accompanied 150 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,839 Speaker 1: by somebody because they were afraid Brian Coburger might start 151 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: walking out with them and they wouldn't know how to 152 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: get rid of them. Listen, he lacked social cues. We 153 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: can cough that up to a lot of things. 154 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 7: Either. 155 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: He was just always the odd kid who was bullied 156 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 1: and left out of the club and learned to resent 157 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 1: that because look, ultimately, Brian Coberger, by his own admission, 158 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 1: killed four extremely loved and popular students who seemingly had 159 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: it all. They had fun lives, they had many friends, 160 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 1: they were going big places, and Brian Coburger didn't like it. 161 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 1: There doesn't seem to be any real known connection between 162 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: the Idaho massacre victims and Brian Coburger. Their light was 163 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: so bright that he had to dim it himself. 164 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 6: Like I said before, he in talking with that other 165 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 6: female WSU student she said that he said he would 166 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 6: not date broke it women. 167 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 7: He idolized women. 168 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 6: That he held in beautiful standards, right, like the Kayley's 169 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 6: and the Maddies and the Zanas of this world, who 170 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 6: are literally beautiful, right, wouldn't if there was some kind 171 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 6: of defect with you, he didn't want a thing to 172 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 6: do with you. Right, That's kind of the impression I 173 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 6: got from reading those ISP reports. And that's very in 174 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 6: cell white, Okay. And he would say things like what 175 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 6: did he say about procreation? 176 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: Like whether there was that handicapped girl, that there was 177 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: somebody who was handicapped, you know, air quote, or somebody 178 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: who was disabled, and he straight up asked, would you 179 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: even consider pro creating because your condition? 180 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 7: And just think about that? Who says that out loud? 181 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: And we know now that many reports were made against 182 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: him and that he gave people a really bad feeling. 183 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 1: And I think that's the takeaway Number one. We know 184 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:53,439 Speaker 1: for a fact that Brian Coberger, who seemingly was obsessed 185 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: with the notion of crime, he was literally studying what 186 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: he has now been convicted of, but he didn't see 187 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: to get on with women. He spent a lot of 188 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: time by himself isolated and online. And that's I think 189 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 1: the important piece of this. One person could be both 190 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: things at the exact same time. Somebody could present very 191 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 1: smart and articulate and clever, as he must have, and 192 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 1: then on the flip of that, you know full well 193 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 1: that there is hate brewing within him, and that hate 194 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:25,559 Speaker 1: turned to murder. And the reason that we're even discussing 195 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 1: this is that we need to better understand where this 196 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: dark web can take you and how a person can 197 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 1: actually be radicalized. 198 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 6: Yeah, and you know, the definition of in cells is 199 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 6: involuntarily sulibate, and I do believe that Brian Coberger was 200 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 6: involuntarily sulibate. Okay, so by definition alone, he is an inceel. 201 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 6: But the in cells that we're talking about congregate online 202 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 6: and they talk to one another and they get deeper 203 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:52,959 Speaker 6: and deeper and deeper into that rabbit hole of self 204 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 6: loathing and self pity. And I just don't see Brian 205 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 6: Koberger being online, being able to effectively communicate with other people, 206 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 6: and being radicalized in that manner. 207 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:08,559 Speaker 3: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 208 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 3: a moment. Just because Brian Coberger may not have been 209 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 3: radicalized online doesn't mean he couldn't have picked up this 210 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 3: information about in cells. 211 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 8: Elsewhere was Brian Coberger's brutal murder of four college roommates 212 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 8: inspired by this monster. 213 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 1: Oll slaughter every single spoiled, stuck up, blonde slut. 214 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 8: Elliott Roger murdered six University of California Santa Barbara students 215 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 8: in twenty fourteen with his arsenal of knives, pistols, and 216 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:54,319 Speaker 8: his car as a weapon. Twenty two year old Roger 217 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 8: was an in cell, an involuntary celibate, and as scene 218 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 8: as an icon by other cells. 219 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 7: You never showed me any mercy, and so I will 220 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 7: show you none. 221 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 8: Coberger studied Rogers' rampage for his criminology course at the 222 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 8: Sales University in Pennsylvania. 223 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 3: Here again, sociologist and masculinities expert, doctor Michael Kimmel. 224 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:25,959 Speaker 2: Elliott Rogers is sort of a touchstone figure among in cells. 225 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,840 Speaker 2: He felt like he had done everything right. He was 226 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 2: good looking and smart and interesting, and he had a 227 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 2: good personality and all of these things, and yet he 228 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 2: couldn't get a date, and he began to blame women. 229 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 2: He went down that kind of very very dark path 230 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 2: to blaming all women for his problems, and he decided 231 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 2: at some point that he was either going to have 232 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 2: to kill himself and take as many of them with 233 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 2: him as he could. His suicide note was all filled 234 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 2: with his entitlement, like you don't give me what I 235 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 2: want kind of stuff. But he didn't call himself an insul. 236 00:13:57,559 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 2: He was just angry. He took it out on women. 237 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 2: He blamed women, But in cell culture embraced him as 238 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,199 Speaker 2: a kind of Oh that's you know, he did what 239 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 2: we all think about, right, And what he thought of 240 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 2: what he did was he got even. That's I think 241 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 2: a key here is that in cel there may be 242 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 2: a motive in some cases to get even. I don't 243 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 2: just you know, get mad. I get even they hurt me, 244 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 2: I will hurt them. 245 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 3: At the Sales University, Brian Coberger and his classmates study 246 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 3: the case of Elliott Roger. Roger is the twenty two 247 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 3: year old who in twenty fourteen murdered six people and 248 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 3: injured dozens more near UC Santa Barbara. Some classmates remember 249 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 3: Coburger seeming strangely indifferent to the horror of the rampage. 250 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 3: Roger was later embraced by the in cell community and 251 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 3: That connection has led some to question whether Coberger's studies 252 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 3: of Roger may have played a role in his own crimes. 253 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 3: Here again, Stephanie Leideker in crime analyst Body movin to 254 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 3: break this down. 255 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: Brian Coburger participated in learning about Elliott Roger, and by 256 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: some accounts, he seemed extremely unphased. So does that mean 257 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: he was discounting this in cell ideology or was it 258 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: just something embedded in him and he didn't give it 259 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 1: too much thought. We do know that Brian Coberger had 260 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: a hard time meeting girls, had multiple women file reports 261 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,479 Speaker 1: against him, both in high school and at university. 262 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 7: This seems to be a pattern in the in cell community. 263 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 6: I do know they claimed Elliott Roger, so he is 264 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 6: their hero. He is their saint, you know, Saint Elliot, 265 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 6: et cetera, et cetera. His his manifesto included ideologies that 266 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 6: he agreed with. But we don't know if Coburger was 267 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 6: actually inspired by Elliott Rodgers, if he followed them closely 268 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 6: even after learning about him at the sales. Just because 269 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 6: he seemed like unphased by his crimes doesn't really prove anything. 270 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 6: We don't know if he was on any insull websites 271 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 6: like four chan, or like incel I or any of 272 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 6: those radicalization pipeline websites. So even though it's an interesting 273 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 6: theory that he could have been inspired by insel idol 274 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 6: Elliott Rodgers, we just don't have any concrete proof. 275 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: I mean, listen, it's in the conversation Brian Coberger his arrest, 276 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: this lone wolf. Why would he possibly want to hurt 277 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: the lives of people who had so much ahead of 278 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: them because he was radicalized potentially online. Now again that's 279 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: wildly debated. We are not labeling him an inceel, but 280 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: that conversation only continued further once he was arrested in 281 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: awaiting trial, once he confessed, and he didn't even have 282 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: to allocate, We're left kind of putting our hands in 283 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: the air, not knowing the final outcome. 284 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 3: We as sociologist and masculinities expert doctor Michael Kimmel for 285 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 3: his thoughts on whether Brian Coberger could be considered an 286 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 3: in cell and whether the in cell community might claim 287 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 3: him much like they did with Elliott Roger. He's joined 288 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:05,400 Speaker 3: by KAT Studio's producer Alison Bankston. 289 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 5: A lot of people have suspected he could be an inceell. 290 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 4: You know, he didn't have to when he pled guilty, 291 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 4: he didn't have to give an allocution. So people may 292 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 4: never know why he did what he did and were 293 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 4: forced to kind of come up with theories about what 294 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 4: his motive could be. And he was known to be 295 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 4: a sexist. A lot of people think why target for 296 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 4: innocent people he had no connection to. You know, a 297 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 4: lot of people are thinking he had to be an 298 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 4: insul that's why he killed these people, because it doesn't 299 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:33,880 Speaker 4: make sense. You know, why else would it make sense 300 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 4: that he'd target four innocent people, you know, a really 301 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 4: popular guy and then three beautiful girls. What do you 302 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 4: make of this theory that you know, Brian Coberger could 303 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 4: have been an in cell? How do you respond to 304 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 4: this theory that's kind of been floating around for the 305 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:48,920 Speaker 4: past few years. 306 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 2: It could have nothing to do with being an insult or, 307 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 2: it could have everything to do with it. We don't know, 308 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 2: and in the absence of any kind of information from him, 309 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 2: I take to develop a kind of theory about it. 310 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 2: And there's no evidence that he ever visited any of 311 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,400 Speaker 2: their websites, participated in any of their jack rooms, none. 312 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 2: Whatever my feeling about this is that is that within 313 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 2: the culture. Now, let's be really clear about this. Ninety 314 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 2: nine percent of people who might consider themselves in cells 315 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 2: never act on it around women. They go to these 316 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 2: places in the manosphere in some ways, I'll put this 317 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 2: in quotation marks harmlessly to seek support and comradeship and 318 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,359 Speaker 2: community with others. But it's they're not going to act 319 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,679 Speaker 2: on it. And I don't think there's any reason to 320 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 2: suspect that Brian Koberger acted on those feelings for those reasons. 321 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 4: Do you think in cells will try to claim Brian 322 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 4: Coberger like they did with Elliott Rodgers? They see this 323 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 4: guy who is sexist. Reports a come out that he 324 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 4: treated women horribly, that he had a hard time getting 325 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 4: a girlfriend, that he just kind of seemed like that 326 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:55,199 Speaker 4: in cell type, you know, reclusive, frustrated with women, created 327 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 4: his female students much harder than male students. Just all 328 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 4: kinds of reports like this. Do you think that the 329 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,160 Speaker 4: in cell community could see Brian Colberger as their next 330 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 4: Elliott Rodgers? 331 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:07,360 Speaker 2: Or if I were part of the in cell community, 332 00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,719 Speaker 2: I would be very wary of people assuming that he 333 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 2: was an insult just because he was a man and 334 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 2: he killed women. And he killed young attractive women. It 335 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 2: wasn't just that he killed women, you know, randomly, So 336 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,399 Speaker 2: I don't know. I think I would be Remember that 337 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 2: the overwhelming majority of in cels, people who would even 338 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 2: describe themselves as in cels, would never even remotely think 339 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 2: of acting on it like that, never, you know, would 340 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 2: not cross their mind. They're very content to be in 341 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 2: their internet, in their online community, you know, talking to 342 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 2: each other, supporting each other, and basically and supporting each 343 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 2: other with this misguided idea that it's women's fault. But 344 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 2: so if I were in the in cell community, I 345 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,640 Speaker 2: would not claim him, especially in the absence of any 346 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 2: evidence that he was one of us. And secondly, I 347 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 2: wouldn't want him to be imposed on us simply because 348 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 2: he was a guy who killed women. So I would 349 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 2: be very wary of it. I don't think that they're 350 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 2: going to embrace him the way that Elliott Roger was 351 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 2: very clear, very you know, very descriptive about is who 352 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:06,680 Speaker 2: he blamed and. 353 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 4: Why and how can we stop in cells? How can 354 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 4: we intervene before someone decides to join a community like this. 355 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 4: Can people who see someone who they think, you know, 356 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 4: could adapt to these ideologies how can they jump in 357 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,159 Speaker 4: and stop them from joining this community. 358 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 2: Well, there's some data that connects a lot of these 359 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 2: different issues because one of the things that psychologists have 360 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 2: found that basically courages resilience among young people is especially 361 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 2: this is for young men. What would predict their resilience, 362 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 2: what would predict their ability to navigate these kinds of 363 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 2: lows in their lives? This the depression, unhappiness, this loneliness, 364 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 2: this feeling like you're not getting what you want. And 365 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 2: two of the things that they that they suggest one 366 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:57,439 Speaker 2: is a good male friend, not a bro, but a friend, 367 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 2: someone you can talk to about your feeling someone you 368 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 2: can talk to who validates you that you you know, 369 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,359 Speaker 2: you know, I get you, bro, you're still you know 370 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 2: you're you're really a man and it's okay, it's you'll 371 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,479 Speaker 2: be fine, it'll happen. And also a good female friend. 372 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 2: I would be willing to suggest that large numbers of 373 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 2: in cels have very few female friends who they can 374 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 2: really talk to about their feelings. The world that they 375 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 2: live in is largely a fantasy about what women's lives 376 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 2: are like, that all these women are so hot and 377 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 2: they're so sexy, and they're so available, but just not 378 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 2: for me. I think that's pretty much a fantasy. And 379 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 2: they don't really get to know girls as friends and 380 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 2: and other guys as real friends. So real contact, real 381 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 2: friendship may be a one of the therapeutic antidote to 382 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 2: the kind of despair and loneliness that many in cells feel. 383 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 3: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 384 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 3: a moment. Here again. Stephanie Leiedeger and crime analyst Body Movin. 385 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 7: I've talked about this a lot. 386 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 6: I've talked about why we continue to look for explanations 387 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 6: and the behavior of Brian Coberger because I believe it's 388 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 6: too scary to face reality. And the reality is, he's 389 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:29,640 Speaker 6: the literal boogeyman. Okay, we can't control him, we can't 390 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 6: put him in a category. 391 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:31,120 Speaker 7: Right. 392 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 6: If we can put him in a category like say Incel, 393 00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,360 Speaker 6: then we can explain it and we can monitor that 394 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 6: and we can stay on top of it and stay safe. Right, 395 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 6: Brian Coberger isn't fitting any of these categories we're trying 396 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 6: to put him in, and that's scary. He's the literal boogeyman. 397 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 6: It's so true. 398 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: And by the way, without having this conversation in a 399 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,159 Speaker 1: meaningful way. We don't know what to look for and 400 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: how to prevent another Elliott Roger or another Brian Coburger 401 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: from causing mass destruction. Yet again, and listen, not all 402 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:00,919 Speaker 1: white men are murderers in. 403 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 7: Serial killers, obviously. 404 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: However, the in cell community is really it's the young 405 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: white man who's spending way too much time online and 406 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: they're getting radicalized online without anybody knowing. Coburger sure does 407 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,639 Speaker 1: check a lout of the right boxes, and yeah, for 408 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: sure there are some that he does not, But again 409 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 1: we have to be looking at what could be a 410 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: very scary reality. The new Boogeyman is the young, disenfranchised 411 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: white boy living at home with add a job, with 412 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: too much time on his hands. The question of whether 413 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: Brian Coberger was an in cel still looms large. Some 414 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,159 Speaker 1: believe his treatment of women and his obsession with power 415 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: and control fit the pattern, Yet without any direct evidence 416 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: that he identified with the community, were left with a 417 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: haunting void, still wondering why he committed the brutal murders 418 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 1: of Madison, Mogen, Callie Gonzalvez, Xanna Kern, and Ethan Chapin. 419 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 1: To learn more about the in cell movement, check out 420 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,639 Speaker 1: our new podcast in Cells on the iHeartRadio app, Apple 421 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,639 Speaker 1: podcast or wherever you get your podcasts and join us 422 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: next week, when Idaho State Police Detective Hugh Powell shares 423 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 1: an inside look at what it was like to investigate 424 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: one of the most shocking mass murders in recent memory. 425 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 1: More on that next time. For more information on the 426 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Kat 427 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: Underscore Studios. The Idaho Massacre is produced by Stephanie Leideker, 428 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 1: Alison Bankston, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and 429 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: sound design by Jeff Tooi music by Jared Aston. The 430 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 1: Idaho Masacre is a production of KAT Studios and iHeartRadio. 431 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: For more podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 432 00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:16,399 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.