1 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:19,639 Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Since I was a 2 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 1: young boy, I've been fascinated by true crime. And one 3 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: of the first cases that ever kind of caught my 4 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: attention involved a serial killer over in England that was 5 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: eventually hung executed, if you will, for some deaths that 6 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 1: he had perpetrated. He attempted to get rid of those 7 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: bodies with acid. The case I'm going to talk to 8 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: you about today is unbelievable and it involves acid as well. 9 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Backs back 10 00:00:59,400 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 1: with me again today is my friend Jackie Howard, executive 11 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: producer of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jackie tell us 12 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: about this case, Joe. The case today is the death 13 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: of Joel and Lisa Guy. They were planning their last 14 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 1: family Thanksgiving in their Knox home. The Guys were planning 15 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 1: to retire and had sold the home. They were moving 16 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 1: to the family homestead in Upper East Tennessee. Lisa was 17 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: still working, but her co workers had planned a retirement 18 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: party for her. But when Lisa didn't show up and 19 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,559 Speaker 1: didn't answer her home telephone or cell phone, they called 20 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: the Knox County Sheriff's department for a wellness check. The 21 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: detectives that went to the home knocked on the front door, 22 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: rang the doorbell, but there was no response. When co 23 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: workers were still unable to reach Lisa, they called the 24 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: Sheriff's department again for the second time in about an hour, 25 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: and at that time police were able to enter the 26 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: home through the garage door. They found an unlocked vehicle 27 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: with a rodge door opener inside and used it to 28 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: enter the home. As soon as they entered the home, 29 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: they were hit with an intense heat. The stove was on, 30 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: there was a strange chemical odor was very overbearing, and 31 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: at that point they realized something was very very wrong. 32 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,400 Speaker 1: As they headed up the stairs, they found large amounts 33 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: of blood and a scene that just became more gruesome. 34 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: Yes they did, Jackie. Can you even begin to imagine 35 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: You're kind of going about your daily business as a 36 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:33,079 Speaker 1: police officer, patroling the street, you know, trying to look 37 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: out for the people in the community, and then you 38 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 1: get summoned to this location and you know, any kind 39 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 1: of domestic environment. And it's well known this has been 40 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: said over and over and over again, how dangerous a 41 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 1: domestic squabble or problem is for any police officer to 42 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: walk into. But you get there, they have to make 43 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 1: their way into the house and then suddenly it's not 44 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: necessarily that it's what you see initially. It's the fact 45 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 1: that as you open this door there's a tremendous amount 46 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: of heat that just kind of rushes out at you 47 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: and kind of slaps you in the face, and it 48 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: is rather shocking. And then coupled with that is this 49 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: overwhelming chemical odor that to some has I think given 50 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: the indication that it would make you light headed, because 51 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: I do know this. As the day progressed, the police 52 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: suddenly realized that they had a need out at the 53 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: scene for their investigators to show up in protective gear, 54 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: you know that had like respirators wearing these on their back, 55 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: because the environment that they were entering into was so 56 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: very hostile jacking. As the police officers investigated, what they 57 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: found were dismembered body parts. Joel Gray's hands were found 58 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: in a hallway, and they found the mother's head boiling 59 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: in a pot on the stove. The father's torso was 60 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: in a plastic tote submerged in a chemical bath. So 61 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: I'm not really sure where to start. Joe the dismemberment 62 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: or the chemicals trying to be used to dispose of 63 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: the evidence. I think you you just pose the same 64 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: question that the investigators probably posed themselves. You know, where 65 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:33,719 Speaker 1: where in the world do we start with this case? 66 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: Because not only do you have this this chemical smell 67 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: that's coming out, and it's kind of affecting your ability 68 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 1: to probably even think clearly because you're you're worried, You're 69 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 1: you're worried about your own personal safety in this environment. 70 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: Heat is going to make you uncomfortable, and then you're 71 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: kind of shocked in your mind's eye this uh, with 72 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: this blood bath that is a sent present at the scene, 73 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: You've got areas of what would be consistent with the 74 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: body having been present in a specific spot, bleeding out 75 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 1: or maybe having the blood drained from it. There's a 76 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: large kind of damp area of focal areas we refer 77 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 1: to it on the carpet surface, and then you have 78 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: dynamic blood staining on the walls as well. Most of 79 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: it looks like it's low velocity perhaps or kind of 80 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 1: drippings that are on not only the handrails but also 81 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: kind of seeping down the walls in specific locations and 82 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: then you know, you come across, you come across a 83 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: pair of hands, Jackie. Can you just imagine just for 84 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: a second, the thought of walking up you're in this home. 85 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 1: And remember I've said this before on body bags. For 86 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: us as forensics people, we're always having to view the 87 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: abnormal in the context of the normal. This is not 88 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,359 Speaker 1: like some a slaughterhouse or something like that. This is 89 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: a domicile that family actually in dwell as they live in. 90 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 1: There's family pictures about, there's evidence of life being lived 91 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 1: in this environment. Here you are in this blood saturated area, 92 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: horrible odors and dismembered body parts all over the place. 93 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: So it is certainly herculean task I think probably for 94 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 1: the investigators to begin to kind of work their way 95 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 1: through it. And you know what's kind of striking about 96 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 1: this case is the fact that, you know, most of 97 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 1: the time forensic pathologists do not come out to crime scenes, 98 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 1: and in this particular case, you had a situation where 99 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: there was a potential for what we refer to as 100 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 1: co mingling of remains, where you have more than one 101 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: body and the parts are dissected out they're lying about. 102 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: There's remains, you know, dissected limbs that are lying about 103 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 1: the house. And so the forensic pathologists they felt as 104 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 1: though they needed them out there to kind of to 105 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 1: help guide the investigators through a scene so that they 106 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: could process it appropriately, so they could account literally for 107 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: each and every remain that they were finding at the scene. 108 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: So the acid that was being used, the caustic substance 109 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: was muriatic acid. Number one, what is it? Number two? 110 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 1: What does it due to a body? And number three, 111 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: how do you determine a true cause of death after 112 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: a body has been subjected to this? The acid that 113 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: was being used is actually a diluted form of hydrochloric acid, 114 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: and it's the muriatic acid is actually an acid that's 115 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: easily acquired. It's probably it's something that you could go 116 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: to any big box store and pick up. Many times 117 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: you'll find it in drain cleaners, for instance, and I'm 118 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: talking about sewer line sewer lines that have gotten backed up. 119 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 1: The problem is is that the individual that's using it 120 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: just you know, you're every day working a person that's 121 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: going to apply this to a clog drain. Even on 122 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: the labels on these things, it says, look, you've really 123 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: got to be careful with this, because this is something 124 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: that's used as to remove corrosion, to remove blockages and 125 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: sewer lines, to actually you could apply it actually into 126 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: onto the floor in your garage if you so chose to, 127 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: if you have a big oil or grease stain there, 128 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: to try to get it up. And this isn't the 129 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: worst of it. The worst of it is the fact 130 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: that there were also other chemicals present, and the police 131 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: at the time had described this as a toxic soup 132 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: because it was not just the acid, but this was 133 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: commingled with bleach as well as well as hydrogen peroxide. 134 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 1: And you know, when you think about hydrogen peroxide, one 135 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: of the things that kind of bounces around in people's minds, 136 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: and it does. You can't use it for this per 137 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: is if you have a blood stain, you can apply 138 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: hydrogen peroxide to try to get it off your clothes. 139 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 1: And it's almost like the individual that's putting this together 140 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: is attempting to create this kind of interesting recipe that 141 00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: is going to solve all of the problems. We want 142 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: to get rid of blood evidence, maybe get rid of DNA, 143 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: and also we want to try to render down a 144 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: human body, and that in and of itself is no 145 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: small undertaking. Okay, So the second part of that question was, Joe, 146 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: what does this acid due to a body? Does it? 147 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:34,719 Speaker 1: It dissolves the skin and the muscle, But what does 148 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: it do to the bone. Well, yeah, it can. You know, 149 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: first off, let's let's talk about what it would do 150 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 1: to a living person if you if you contacted this 151 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: on your skin. At the very top of the list 152 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: are chemical burns. It will it will actually blister your skin. 153 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: It creates a situation where your skin will begin to 154 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: literally ulcate. It's it's very very harmful, not to mention 155 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 1: you know, the noxious odors. It can create lung damage, 156 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: all these things, and it is a corrosive substance that's 157 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: going to eat away any kind of soft tissue. So 158 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:17,959 Speaker 1: once it gets down to the bone, after the soft 159 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:21,559 Speaker 1: tissue is gone, at that point in time, it's also 160 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 1: going to impact the bone as well as it begins 161 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:27,800 Speaker 1: to compromise the structural integrity of the bone and potentially 162 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: eradicate any kind of evidence that might be there. The one, 163 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: the one thing that can prevent this is time. You know, 164 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: how quickly can you get to the body to kind 165 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 1: of stem stem this chemical change that's taking place at 166 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 1: that point when you have that chemical change taking place 167 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: and evidence is destroyed and the muscle structure that has 168 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: been destroyed. So how do you go about Joe finding 169 00:10:56,520 --> 00:11:00,920 Speaker 1: out the cause of death. Well, you know that probably 170 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 1: from a forensic standpoint in this particular case, one of 171 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 1: the things that may have happened is that this process 172 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: of compromising the tissue, you know, to get rid of 173 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: any evidence of injuries, may have been diminished somewhat because 174 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: of the mixture. If the individual that had bathed these 175 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: bodies in pure hydrochloric acid there ends probably would have 176 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: been better served through bathing the bodies in pure hydrochloric 177 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: acid as opposed to this kind of toxic soup that's 178 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: going on at this point in time. You're stemming the 179 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:47,200 Speaker 1: actual chemical reaction that occurs when pure acid is applied 180 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,560 Speaker 1: to the body. So you throw bleach on top of that, 181 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: you put in hydrochloric acid, and anything else that this 182 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: individual may have been applying, you're creating a problem for 183 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: the chemical reaction to go forward at that point time. Now, 184 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: not to say that this is a caustic, because it 185 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: still has impact on the tissue, but the acid is 186 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 1: not being utilized to its fullest effect because it has 187 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: been diluted to this point. What about the heat component 188 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: to this, Joe. When the police officers arrived, every thermostat 189 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: in the house was turned on high, as well as 190 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: space heaters throughout the house were turned on high. What 191 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: did this do? How did this affect the bodies? And 192 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:35,079 Speaker 1: was this an attempt to cause a fire? Well, there's 193 00:12:35,160 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: one thing that you forgot to mention there. We've also 194 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: got a big pot on the stove that's boiling. And 195 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,679 Speaker 1: anybody that's ever been in a kitchen that's had a 196 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: pot that's been going for a protracted period of time, 197 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: the one thing that you know is that that is 198 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: an incredible heat source, particularly in the immediate area. I 199 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 1: don't necessarily think that this was an attempt to burn 200 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: the house down. Necessarily. I think that it may be 201 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 1: an attempt to speed the process of decomposition. And that's 202 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 1: why I love forensic science, Jackie. That's that is plain 203 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 1: and simple why I love this because in medical legal 204 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: death investigation, one of the things that's played out in 205 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 1: the realm of physical science that we learn from. You know, 206 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 1: we learn physical science when we're very young, is that 207 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: we do know that every experiment most of the time 208 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:30,559 Speaker 1: that you engage in in school. You remember when you 209 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,079 Speaker 1: got an alcohol burner or a Bunsen burner, you turn 210 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: it on and you've got that little blue flame that's 211 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 1: coming out and it's you know, you're heating the mixture up. Well, 212 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 1: this is what we do know, is that heat will 213 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: speed a process up, and particularly decomposition. Heat just makes 214 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 1: heat causes the pace of decomposition to increase exponentially. And 215 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: a very specific example is as you well know, I 216 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: started my career in new Lands, all right. It is 217 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: a tropical subtropical environment, and their bodies that I would 218 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 1: examine down there for the corner's office would begin to 219 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 1: break down much more quickly than say bodies in other 220 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: regions of the country. So heat does in fact impact this. 221 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: I can only imagine that the heat was left at 222 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: this level in order to speed this process. One of 223 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 1: the things that sticks with me about this case is 224 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: that one of the police officers actually stated, and I'm 225 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: paraphrasing a bit, but they actually stated that this scene 226 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: is something that they will never ever get out of 227 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: their mind. And I can I can understand that that 228 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: you walk into this environment and you see this much destruction, 229 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: you see this much horror, and you know, you begin 230 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: to think about what in the world went on in 231 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: this house. Well, we do know, Joe that it was brutal. 232 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: Joel Guy Senior had been stabbed forty two times, but 233 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: there was much more damage done to his body. The 234 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: mutilation and dismemberment was severe. Yeah, it was Jackie, and 235 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: you know that's evidenced out and what you're seeing at 236 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: the scene. I've seen the crime scene photographs from this 237 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: particular case, and as I had earlier mentioned, there is 238 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 1: a lot of evidence of the blood dynamics that went 239 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: on during this event. We have everything from kind of 240 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: passive blood flow, you know, where you get this seepage 241 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 1: that comes out as as a body rest in one 242 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: particular spot, and then there's kind of the more telling 243 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: blood staining that's going on where you have contact blood 244 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: that's kind of dripping down the walls, maybe some low 245 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 1: velocity blood that's kind of cast off, if you will, 246 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:15,080 Speaker 1: and that happens many times. Would stab injuries, and particularly 247 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: when you have forty two of these, it would take 248 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of physical energy for a perpetrator to 249 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: wield a knife forty two times, burying it in to 250 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: an individual's body. And you know, this is not something 251 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: that's done in a passive form because the person Joel Senior, 252 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: would have been fighting back. So it's a dynamic event 253 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: where you've got wrestling that's going on, you've got reaction 254 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: that's going on, you've got an individual that's trying to 255 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: fend the individual off that's attacking them. And you know, 256 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: the forensic pathologists rightly stated that there were any number 257 00:16:56,280 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: of defensive injuries on Joel Senior's hand ends and his arms. 258 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 1: He had an awareness that this was actually occurring to 259 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: him as a result of these little insults that he 260 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: had all over his arms where he's trying to fend 261 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:14,159 Speaker 1: off this attack being stabbed forty two times. We know 262 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: that his lungs, liver, and kidneys were damaged. So, depending 263 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 1: on the size of the knife, how hard would the 264 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 1: stabbings have to have been or does it just depend 265 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: on the size of the knife. You know, damage that's 266 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:35,639 Speaker 1: inflicted is heavily depended upon the position of the victim 267 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,160 Speaker 1: in relation to the attacker. So and let me give 268 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: you an example. Let's say, for instance, an individual is 269 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,640 Speaker 1: charging you and you're standing upright at this moment in time, 270 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 1: the stab wound that you would sustain in this particular 271 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: posture might not necessarily be as deep as say the 272 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: following stab wounds. When you've been forced to the floor, 273 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,959 Speaker 1: you're bleeding out, and now the individual has leverage over you. 274 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: They're lifting the knife above their head and they're driving 275 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 1: it into your body. So he's got a tremendous number 276 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: of injuries. As you mentioned, Jackie, we're talking about the lungs, 277 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 1: the liver, and the kidneys, and to get to the kidneys, 278 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: if you try to do this anteriorly, and of course 279 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 1: anterilly means on the front, you would have to use 280 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 1: such force to get through all of the tissue because 281 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 1: the kidneys are oriented to the rear of the body. 282 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: So he's probably got stab wounds all over the body 283 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:38,360 Speaker 1: his total circumference. He's rolling around, he's writhing on the floor. 284 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 1: These are tremendous injuries. When it comes to his dismemberment, Joe, 285 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: his hands were severed at the wrist, his arms at 286 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: this shoulder blade, his legs at the hip, and his 287 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: right foot at the ankle. Do you believe that this 288 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: was an attempt to make the body small enough to 289 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:01,160 Speaker 1: fit into the storage totes so that it can all faster. Yeah, 290 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 1: there's a lot that we can tell by virtue of 291 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: the way this body was dismembered. And it's interesting that 292 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: the body was dismembered at these critical joints. Uh. You know, 293 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,880 Speaker 1: lots of times with dismemberments, you'll see individuals that will 294 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,199 Speaker 1: take sauce, for instance, and try to go safer. Instance, 295 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 1: the femur, which is the long bone in your upper leg, 296 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: they'll try to cut across the shaft of that bone. 297 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: That that's not what this individual did. They actually went 298 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 1: to joints to try to take this body apart. We're 299 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: talking about the risks, remember that that was famously mentioned 300 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: also the shoulders, were talking about the hips, the knees, 301 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 1: this sort of thing. So it's easier to facilitate this. 302 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: And what happens is is that if you can get 303 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,199 Speaker 1: a blade, and there were several blades found that the scene, Jackie, 304 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: in addition to a pair of blood covered scissors, you 305 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 1: can cut through some of the connective tissue and literally 306 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: pull the body apart. At that point, of course, it's 307 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: going to take time to do this. In trying to 308 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: do this, the attempt here, I believe at least, is 309 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: to compartmentalize the body and to get it as compact 310 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: as possible to put it into this kind of rendering 311 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: ben if you will, where the body the tissue is 312 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:18,880 Speaker 1: going to be placed into this area where you can 313 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 1: actually dissolve and eradicate the body. You're going to have 314 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 1: to do this because we're talking about a grown man here. 315 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,679 Speaker 1: He was not a small man, so you're going to 316 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 1: have to make him as compact as possible so that 317 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 1: you can bathe his body in this caustic stew. The mother, Lisa, 318 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: was stabbed thirty one times. Her legs were severed below 319 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: the knee and her arms at the shoulder, and she 320 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: again had been decapitated. For lack of a better question, 321 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:51,479 Speaker 1: why yeah, and that kind of interesting. You know, we 322 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:56,959 Speaker 1: know that Lisa, she was in fact decapitated, and of 323 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 1: course you know her head was actually found in this 324 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: pot on the stove where it would appear that the 325 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: individual is attempting to render down her head visa v this. 326 00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: But why her as opposed to Dad? Sometimes? You know, 327 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 1: I know that sometimes forensic psychologists will look at mutilation 328 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:20,200 Speaker 1: of bodies and try to paint a picture relative to 329 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: the psychopathology that's going on inside somebody's head. You know, 330 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: an attempt to rip somebody to shreds and this sort 331 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:29,959 Speaker 1: of thing, and you have to pause, I think as 332 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: an investigator, and begin to think, is this because they're 333 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: attempting to disfigure the body or is this just their 334 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:40,679 Speaker 1: own economy if you will, to try to render it 335 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:42,880 Speaker 1: down and make it as small as it possibly can. 336 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,199 Speaker 1: You know, when you take a look at the scene, 337 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 1: people might think, well, this is a very ordered event. 338 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: It's not. It seems kind of haphazard. You've got an 339 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: individual that has taken out a plastic sheet, laid it 340 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: on the ground, has put the tubs on top of 341 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: the plastic sheet, and is rendering down those remains that 342 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: were found in those tubs in this solution. But yet 343 00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: you still have random bits of bodies laying all over 344 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 1: the place. There's all kinds of blood of it. It's everywhere. 345 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: And also what's kind of unique. I watched the video 346 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: of the walkthrough of this scene, the crime scene walk through, 347 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: and it's quite horrific. You'll see that there is like 348 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: a huge collection of chemicals that are literally downstairs in 349 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: an area that they had just kind of been piecemeal together. 350 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 1: And you'll see all kinds of different containers down there, 351 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 1: containing everything from bleach to drain cleaner to all of 352 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: these things. So there is a level of order to it, 353 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 1: but there's also disorder, like it's kind of randomly thrown together. 354 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 1: And this individuals trying to do this on the fly. 355 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:58,880 Speaker 1: Both individuals Joe, as we've discussed, we're stabbed multiple times 356 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 1: and both saw injuries to their ribs. The mother at 357 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 1: least nine of her ribs were severed. The dad had 358 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: twelve marks on his ribs. How much force does it 359 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,640 Speaker 1: take to leave that kind of damage to a bone 360 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,679 Speaker 1: that still shows up after being soaked in acid. A 361 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 1: tremendous amount of force, Jackie, and you'll get these They're 362 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,639 Speaker 1: quite fascinating to see when you look at them on magnification. 363 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: If everybody will, in the sound of my voice, will 364 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: visualize the shape of a V a V like the 365 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: letter V. And when you're looking at a cross section 366 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: of this, that's what it appears to be went on 367 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: high magification, when you're looking at the edges of these ribs, 368 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,400 Speaker 1: and that v is the result of what's referred to 369 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 1: as a tool mark. That means that a single edged 370 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: sharp instrument has been inserted through the ribs. And yeah, 371 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: you know, the the caustic substance, this acid bath, if 372 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 1: you will combine with bleach and hydrogen peroxide and all 373 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: these other items, it might very well compromise it. You 374 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: might not be able to appreciate it as much as 375 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,160 Speaker 1: you would have been if that solution had not been applied. However, 376 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 1: you can still appreciate it. And what's really fascinating about 377 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 1: this is that one of the most famous forensic anthropologists 378 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: in the country that specializes in tool mark examination on bone, 379 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 1: doctor Steve Simms, was involved in this case and gave 380 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,199 Speaker 1: kind of a painted a very dark picture of what 381 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: had actually taken place. And one more thing that's kind 382 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: of significant when we begin to think about the mother here, 383 00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: that doctor Simms and the friends of cathologist had noted 384 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:59,440 Speaker 1: is that Lisa's head was not neatly dissected away from 385 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 1: her neck. As a matter of fact, she was decapitated 386 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:08,680 Speaker 1: as a result of what they frame as blunt force trauma. 387 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 1: That gives you an indication that either there was a 388 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 1: tremendous amount of anger involved in this. They're trying to 389 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 1: maybe in a post mortem sense, disfigure the body, or 390 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: they got frustrated with trying to remove the head from 391 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: the neck at what's referred to as the C one level. 392 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 1: That's commonly that's the vertebra that immediately supports your skull. 393 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: Some people referred to it as the atlas. And there's 394 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,120 Speaker 1: evidence that there was blunt force trauma. To my way 395 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 1: of thinking, the individual would have started and you'd probably 396 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 1: see tool marks on the bone as well. They probably 397 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 1: started with a knife trying to cut away the attachments 398 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: where the head attaches to the spine. They got frustrated, 399 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 1: and probably more than likely they began to stomp on 400 00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,520 Speaker 1: the back of the head until the head was dislodged 401 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 1: from the I gotta tell you, I don't think that 402 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: I would have ever imagine myself talking about decapitation through 403 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 1: blunt force trauma. I mean, I've seen a thing or 404 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,160 Speaker 1: two in my day. I've seen bodies decapitated, most frequently 405 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: in motor vehicle accidents. But you know, the pathologist and 406 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 1: the forensic anthropologists painted such a horrible picture here, Jackie, 407 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: where they're talking about blunt force trauma separating the head 408 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,360 Speaker 1: from the rest of the body. Joe, what makes this 409 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 1: case even more heinous is to find out that these 410 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:59,840 Speaker 1: murders were committed by Joel Guy Junior, Lisa and Joel 411 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: Senior's twenty eight year old son. He had arrived with 412 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: the family for a Thanksgiving dinner, and the intention was 413 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 1: to portray the fact that he was headed back to 414 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: Louisiana after the holiday celebration. The sisters were planning to 415 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: get in touch with him to tell him what happened. 416 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,959 Speaker 1: Then the police revealed what they had found. A backpack 417 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 1: in the home with the manifesto of everything that needed 418 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:28,400 Speaker 1: to be done to complete these murders, as well as 419 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 1: video of Joel Guy Junior at local stores buying an 420 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: aseptic peroxide, band aids bandages to treat his own wounds 421 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: from committing these murders. What do we understand, Joe, about 422 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: these murders from the details in that manifesto? What was 423 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 1: in it? Oh? My lord, I don't know that I'll 424 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: ever be able to get this out of my mind. 425 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 1: You know, I've read this several times, and you know 426 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: you sit here and you meditate on this for a 427 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: little bit, you know, when you're trying to put this 428 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: together and try to understand what's going on in somebody's mind. 429 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,120 Speaker 1: This guy actually laid this thing out. He had made 430 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: notes very conscious of what he wanted to do. There's 431 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:14,679 Speaker 1: there's no equivocation here, there's no there's nothing here to 432 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: say that, well, maybe he was not going to do this. No, 433 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: he had. He had very specific plans in order to 434 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: not just kill, but to get rid of the bodies. 435 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: And he's taken all things into consideration. And interestingly enough, 436 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 1: the police went on to later name this list as 437 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 1: a as the rather as the premeditation list, that those 438 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: are those things that he was considering that he would need. 439 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 1: I'm talking about items everything, and it ranged from everywhere 440 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 1: from uh knives he identifies knives plural um and he 441 00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: uses the term uh multiple. And also the fact that 442 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,000 Speaker 1: what's kind of chilling about this, and this is actually 443 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: one of the first items as listed, is that he's 444 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: got the word quiet in there. Jackie. Just think about 445 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 1: that just for a second. When you're talking about quiet, 446 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 1: that his idea is that to utilize a knife is 447 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: going to be quieter, say, for instance, than firing a 448 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: gun and I guess if he was really skilled at 449 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,520 Speaker 1: using a knife, that would be quite accurate. But as 450 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: you had mentioned, he's actually seen on CCTV walking into 451 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: a store in order to purchase antiseptic and bandages and 452 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 1: all these sorts of things. And do you know why, 453 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: because like many people that wield knives, that he wound 454 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: up cutting himself and injuring himself. When you see the 455 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: fight that senior his father put up, the defensive injuries 456 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: that the father had, this kid essentially inflicted wounds on 457 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 1: himself with this edged weapon. He wound up cut in himself. 458 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: And this happens many times in cases involving sharp force injury, 459 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: you'll see perpetrats. That's one of the reasons why when 460 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: a suspect is arrested, we're very very careful to take 461 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 1: ventral views of the hands, the photographs, if you will, 462 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:21,239 Speaker 1: and then take palmer aspects of the hands, so that 463 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: we can get all aspects of the hands, because many 464 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: times the hands will tell the tale. They will tell 465 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: you where the individual has been, what they've been engaged in. 466 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: And in this case, there's this photograph that has risen 467 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: up of him actually being having following his arrest where 468 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 1: his hands are being photographed and you can quite literally 469 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,240 Speaker 1: see the injuries that he has on the palmer aspects 470 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: of both hands. So there was quite a fight that 471 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: he was involved in. And he's really kind of, you know, 472 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: kind of playing this out. It's almost like he's when 473 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 1: you read this list, he's thinking about things. It's not 474 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 1: just like, say, for instance, a grocery list, though there 475 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: are things that are listed in here, but he's talking 476 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: about he's got to get bleached in order to d 477 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 1: nature proteins. That means that he's got some idea as 478 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: to how we go about discovering DNA, so he's trying 479 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: to eradicate the proteins. He's talking about also things like 480 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: he needs plastic sheets in order for the disposal process. 481 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: He's talking about this. He even goes so far as 482 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: to use the term flush chunks down the toilet, not 483 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 1: garbage disposal. There have been many cases over the years 484 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 1: and cases that I've worked where individuals that attempt to 485 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: get rid of tissue. When they will put tissue into 486 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: garbage disposals and they flip the switch, what happens is 487 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 1: that specific tissue will get hung up on those little 488 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: teeth and you know, crime saying investigators, We've got all 489 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 1: the time in the world, don't we We don't have 490 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:54,680 Speaker 1: to go in and take our time and kind of 491 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: flash through things. We can actually take a part of 492 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: garbage disposal, get in there and recover tissue that's in there, 493 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: and that tissue that we recover, you know, can be 494 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,479 Speaker 1: traced back to its point of origin, and specifically we 495 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: can find we can harvest DNA from from that soft tissue. 496 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,400 Speaker 1: He had an awareness of all of this. One one 497 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: consideration that he has on his list is this idea 498 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 1: of he was thinking about going to the point of 499 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: flooding the house. I guess he was going to maybe 500 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 1: make the pipes burst or or just unleash water hose 501 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: inside the house to try to fill the house with 502 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: water in order to and he specifically talks about this, 503 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: if he floods the house quote unquote, it covers up 504 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 1: forensic evidence. And that's that's kind of fascinating as well. 505 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: And you know, when you're looking at this and you're thinking, well, 506 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 1: how much thought and how long had he been thinking 507 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 1: about this prior to doing this. Remember it was just 508 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: literally days before days before that he had sat had 509 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: sat at table with his mom, his dad, his siblings 510 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: and enjoyed Thanksgiving. But you know you're sitting there and 511 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: you're thinking about him. Is he sitting there staring at 512 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: his parents, staring at his siblings, thinking how am I 513 00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: going to facilitate this crime? I'm sitting here watching these 514 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: people eat, We're having conversations, we're talking about what's going 515 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: on over the past year, what's going on in our lives, 516 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,479 Speaker 1: and all the while, maybe that little seed is turning 517 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 1: in his mind and he decides that he's going to 518 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: go ahead and perpetrate this crime almost immediately after Thanksgiving 519 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 1: dinner has ended. Well, you're right about one thing, as 520 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: I always show, you're usually right about everything. But you 521 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: are right about the fact about how long he had 522 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 1: been planning this crime, because the detailed nature of his 523 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 1: list shows that he had and spending copious amounts of 524 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 1: time trying to cover all of his spaces. As you said, 525 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,320 Speaker 1: get multiple knives, get a sledgehammer to crush the bones, 526 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,839 Speaker 1: bring a blender, get bleach the plastic binds. He even 527 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 1: notes that it doesn't matter whether they're killed, you just 528 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,720 Speaker 1: have to get rid of the bloody spots. He notes 529 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: that his DNA is already throughout the house, so that 530 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 1: qualifies his DNA is there because that's where he lives. 531 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 1: He also talks about opening up the doggie door as 532 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:36,240 Speaker 1: a way for whoever did this to get into the house. 533 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 1: So he spent lots of time trying to figure out 534 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 1: the best way to make this happen for him not 535 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,319 Speaker 1: to get caught. Yeah right, you are, Jackie, and you 536 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 1: know you have to wonder, you know's what's the end 537 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: game for this? And he is doing a lot of thinking. 538 00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: Remember our friend Nancy Grace always says that famously, you know, 539 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:03,160 Speaker 1: she always says that intent, uh intent, premeditation perhaps can 540 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 1: be formed in a twinkling of an eye. And in 541 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:11,240 Speaker 1: this particular case, he's had quite a bit of time 542 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 1: to kind of ruminate, if you will, on all of 543 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: these issues, to consider all of the possibilities that the 544 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:22,200 Speaker 1: problem in this particular case for him logistically is that 545 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: it still wound up being very frenzied. You look at 546 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 1: this and you understand that he was able to recognize problems. 547 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,319 Speaker 1: He's just not good at bringing things to a resolution 548 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,839 Speaker 1: and solving the problems. Hence, you know, for the guy 549 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 1: has never had a job He's always been dependent upon 550 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,759 Speaker 1: his parents for everything in his life. Even at the 551 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,319 Speaker 1: advanced age at twenty six, twenty eight years old that 552 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 1: he was, he was still living off of his parents. 553 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: And I think that that goes to the bigger, bigger 554 00:35:55,960 --> 00:36:00,400 Speaker 1: picture here, that he was just incapable, incapable of inishing 555 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,719 Speaker 1: anything in his life, even when it came down to 556 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 1: the disposal of his parents' body. There was one more 557 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 1: note Joe on that list that certainly lays out the 558 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 1: framework for what you just said. He notes in his 559 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:18,239 Speaker 1: list he's not alive to claim her half of the insurance, 560 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:25,320 Speaker 1: meaning his father money all mine, five hundred thousand dollars. 561 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 1: This twenty eight year old son killed his mother and 562 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 1: father over money. I spend some time thinking about that 563 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:37,799 Speaker 1: and how gruesome this crime was. That he would do 564 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: this to the two people that created him, essentially, you know, 565 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: that he would just rip them to shreds and bathe 566 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 1: their bodies in acid after he had dismembered them in 567 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: their own home. And you know, I spent some time, 568 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,359 Speaker 1: you know, considering that. I thought, you know, yeah, he's 569 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,759 Speaker 1: got five hundred thousand dollars listed as you know, the 570 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,840 Speaker 1: end game if you will the motivation behind all of this, 571 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,319 Speaker 1: and you really begin to think, you know, would that 572 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,799 Speaker 1: five hundred thousand dollars have been enough. Let's say that 573 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:13,520 Speaker 1: he had gotten away with it, say that he had 574 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: laid claim to that five hundred thousand dollars. Would it 575 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,759 Speaker 1: have still been enough? What would happen when he ran 576 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:20,720 Speaker 1: through that? Would he go out and find more people 577 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:30,480 Speaker 1: to absolutely eradicate. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is 578 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:31,359 Speaker 1: Bodybacks