WEBVTT - What Elevators Teach Us About Technology, Design, and Human Behavior 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:22.796 Pushkin. When I told the editor of this show that 0:00:22.876 --> 0:00:27.716 I was thinking of doing an episode about elevators, she said, why, 0:00:28.916 --> 0:00:32.556 which fair question. It's a little bit different than what 0:00:32.596 --> 0:00:36.356 we usually do on the show. But the elevator is 0:00:37.076 --> 0:00:42.556 this little box that's full of interesting ideas about technology 0:00:42.596 --> 0:00:47.356 and design and innovation and human behavior. The elevator made 0:00:47.396 --> 0:00:52.516 the modern city possible. No elevators, no skyscrapers, and today 0:00:52.916 --> 0:00:56.196 people are working on entirely new kinds of elevators that 0:00:56.236 --> 0:00:59.356 can go higher and faster than ever, and that can 0:00:59.396 --> 0:01:01.956 also not only go up and down, but can also 0:01:02.196 --> 0:01:11.636 go sideways. I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this is what's your problem. 0:01:11.876 --> 0:01:15.236 My guest today is Lee Gray. He's a professor of 0:01:15.356 --> 0:01:19.396 architectural history at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte, 0:01:19.716 --> 0:01:22.996 and as far as we can tell, he's the world's 0:01:23.236 --> 0:01:28.156 leading historian of the elevator. I started the conversation with 0:01:28.356 --> 0:01:31.516 Lee in the same place that people always start the 0:01:31.556 --> 0:01:36.236 story of the modern elevator. New York City, eighteen fifty three, 0:01:36.716 --> 0:01:41.116 when an engineer and inventor named Elijah Otis stood on 0:01:41.196 --> 0:01:44.836 an open elevator platform in front of a crowd. A 0:01:44.956 --> 0:01:47.956 rope hoisted the elevator high up into the air, so 0:01:48.116 --> 0:01:50.836 Otis was sort of dangling there in front of the crowd. 0:01:51.316 --> 0:01:55.036 And then a guy Otis had hired took an axe 0:01:55.436 --> 0:01:58.596 and cut the rope that held the elevator up. The 0:01:58.636 --> 0:02:03.036 elevator fell a couple feet and then it stopped. The 0:02:03.076 --> 0:02:07.036 safety break that Otis had invented worked perfectly. He called 0:02:07.076 --> 0:02:12.196 out all safe, and the crowd, one imagines went wild. 0:02:13.196 --> 0:02:16.516 Lee kind of sighed frankly when I brought this story up, 0:02:16.836 --> 0:02:20.356 and he told me, yes, that story is true as 0:02:20.356 --> 0:02:23.996 far as it goes, but it's incomplete, and it's incomplete 0:02:24.036 --> 0:02:26.836 in the way that stories about lone inventors and Eureka 0:02:26.916 --> 0:02:29.116 moments are almost always incomplete. 0:02:29.836 --> 0:02:32.876 A critical part of the story that's often omitted is 0:02:32.916 --> 0:02:36.436 this was designed for a freight elevator. When he demonstrates 0:02:36.436 --> 0:02:39.596 his safety, there is no such thing as a passenger 0:02:39.636 --> 0:02:42.996 elevator as we know it today. That hasn't been imagined yet. 0:02:43.436 --> 0:02:46.516 It was literally an open platform. There was no car, 0:02:46.596 --> 0:02:50.676 there were no walls, no, there was no enclosure on it. 0:02:50.716 --> 0:02:53.956 So it was it was yes, very clever and much 0:02:54.076 --> 0:02:59.236 needed safety device, but for a much different problem than 0:02:59.476 --> 0:03:03.316 that of a passenger elevator. The safety was designed that 0:03:03.356 --> 0:03:06.956 it was held in place by a spring, and the 0:03:06.996 --> 0:03:09.956 weight of the platform held the spring in place when 0:03:09.956 --> 0:03:12.276 it was attached to the hoisting rope. When the hoisting 0:03:12.356 --> 0:03:17.636 rope broke, the spring then pushed down and then from 0:03:17.676 --> 0:03:22.076 the car pushed out two iron bars that engaged the 0:03:22.156 --> 0:03:25.836 teeth of the guide rails. And the minute they hit 0:03:25.876 --> 0:03:27.996 the teeth, the platform stopped moving. 0:03:28.636 --> 0:03:32.196 So it's essentially an emergency brake that designed to activate 0:03:32.316 --> 0:03:33.476 if the rope should break. 0:03:33.836 --> 0:03:36.556 Yes, that's that's a that's a very good analogy. 0:03:37.196 --> 0:03:40.476 So okay, Elijah Otis invented this safety break for the 0:03:40.516 --> 0:03:44.236 industrial elevator and that is in fact the same Otis 0:03:44.236 --> 0:03:48.396 who is tied to the Otis Elevator company today. You 0:03:48.396 --> 0:03:51.436 know we should mention, but now in our story we 0:03:51.556 --> 0:03:55.476 need someone to come along and invent the passenger elevator, 0:03:55.516 --> 0:03:58.156 this thing we know as the elevator. Tell me about 0:03:58.196 --> 0:03:58.636 that part. 0:03:59.276 --> 0:04:03.516 The first person that I am aware of to conceptualize 0:04:03.556 --> 0:04:07.796 and articulate the modern passenger elevator. This is where it 0:04:07.796 --> 0:04:12.236 gets complicated because for his first name was Otis, last 0:04:12.316 --> 0:04:12.996 name Tuffts. 0:04:13.276 --> 0:04:15.516 That's so complicated we can call him Tufts, and the 0:04:15.556 --> 0:04:16.836 other guy otis yeah right. 0:04:16.916 --> 0:04:23.116 So the Boston Boston engineer Tuffts patents in eighteen fifty 0:04:23.236 --> 0:04:29.116 nine an elevator, an elevator specifically designed for passengers, with 0:04:29.156 --> 0:04:34.796 an enclosed car to protect the passengers, automatically operating doors 0:04:34.956 --> 0:04:39.716 not quite sure how well they worked, and the idea 0:04:39.836 --> 0:04:42.996 of an operator there to run the elevator for the passengers. 0:04:43.796 --> 0:04:46.116 But it was also a very specific conception of an 0:04:46.116 --> 0:04:49.116 elevator car because it was designed for use in the 0:04:49.236 --> 0:04:51.836 Fifth Avenue Hotel in New York, which was one of 0:04:51.876 --> 0:04:56.076 these grand urban hotels. So the elevator car included benches 0:04:56.116 --> 0:04:59.076 for the passengers they could sit down and relax before 0:04:59.116 --> 0:05:03.956 the car moved, and so Tufts very clearly articulated for 0:05:03.996 --> 0:05:06.236 the first time, here are all the components of a 0:05:06.276 --> 0:05:10.796 passenger elevator. What he also did was proposed a technological 0:05:10.876 --> 0:05:14.156 solution that really didn't make much sense because it was 0:05:14.196 --> 0:05:17.796 so expensive. Because he said, well, you know, the problem 0:05:17.836 --> 0:05:20.356 with elevators is the cable's going to break and the 0:05:20.356 --> 0:05:22.716 elevator car will fall down. So we got rid of 0:05:22.716 --> 0:05:25.796 the cable. And what he proposed and in fact did 0:05:25.796 --> 0:05:29.116 in the Fifth Avenue hotel Is. He constructed this massive 0:05:29.436 --> 0:05:33.556 vertical screw for lack of a better definition, that ran 0:05:33.596 --> 0:05:35.516 from the basement to the top of the building. The 0:05:35.556 --> 0:05:38.276 elevator cars attached to the screw like a nut on 0:05:38.356 --> 0:05:42.276 a bolt. The screw turns, the elevator car rises, and 0:05:42.996 --> 0:05:45.836 it goes up and goes down very very slowly. It 0:05:45.916 --> 0:05:50.476 was insanely complicated from a technological solution that made no sense. 0:05:50.516 --> 0:05:53.196 Only two of these were ever built. So this is 0:05:53.236 --> 0:05:56.756 an example of he got all of what we won 0:05:56.836 --> 0:05:59.516 in a passenger elevator in terms of its concept. He 0:05:59.676 --> 0:06:04.156 just got the technology really really wrong. But he established 0:06:04.156 --> 0:06:09.276 the paradigm that others Otis among them picked up and said, ah, okay, 0:06:09.276 --> 0:06:12.196 now we know what you know. The difference between a 0:06:12.236 --> 0:06:14.836 freight elevator and a passenger elevator, a lot of it 0:06:14.876 --> 0:06:17.116 is the car to keep passengers safe. 0:06:17.516 --> 0:06:22.036 So we want Toff's box toughs room that goes up 0:06:22.036 --> 0:06:25.876 and down, and we want Otis's safety mechanism basically like 0:06:25.916 --> 0:06:28.356 it seems like the combination of those two is what 0:06:28.676 --> 0:06:32.156 gives us in the middle of the eighteen hundreds, the 0:06:32.196 --> 0:06:35.076 passenger elevator that is not so different as we know it. 0:06:35.036 --> 0:06:39.196 Today, right, Yes, in terms of many many of its 0:06:39.236 --> 0:06:44.916 fundamental features and the concern for safety that otis expressed 0:06:44.916 --> 0:06:48.676 with this freight elevator. That is one constant that the 0:06:48.676 --> 0:06:52.436 elevator industry has never lost sight of and is always 0:06:52.476 --> 0:06:54.276 at the forefront of everything they do. 0:06:55.436 --> 0:06:59.636 So we have this elevator that is Tough's box plus 0:06:59.676 --> 0:07:03.156 Otis's safety device basically, right. And so you have this 0:07:03.276 --> 0:07:11.836 moment in the eighteen hundreds when elevators and skyscrapers are 0:07:11.996 --> 0:07:14.796 kind of emerging into the world together, right, And this 0:07:14.836 --> 0:07:18.556 is a really elegant interesting story. So can you just 0:07:18.636 --> 0:07:23.396 talk about the relationship between the elevator as this innovation 0:07:23.636 --> 0:07:26.876 and the skyscraper as this related innovation. How do they 0:07:26.876 --> 0:07:27.916 sort of co evolve? 0:07:28.676 --> 0:07:34.076 So the very quickly leading into that when throughout throughout 0:07:34.116 --> 0:07:38.916 the eighteen sixties we only find passenger elevators in large 0:07:38.916 --> 0:07:43.796 German hotels or very posh department stores. It's a luxury item, 0:07:43.836 --> 0:07:47.996 not predicated on speed, predicated on I enter, I have 0:07:48.076 --> 0:07:50.996 a seat on a cushioned seat. There's mirrors in the car, 0:07:51.156 --> 0:07:54.396 the gash chandeliers. This is elegant little room that takes 0:07:54.396 --> 0:07:57.956 me very slowly to my destination because it's about luxury, 0:07:57.956 --> 0:07:58.956 it's not about speed. 0:07:59.396 --> 0:08:02.276 Is it also sort of about technology? Is it about 0:08:02.316 --> 0:08:07.116 like I am rich and I'm experiencing the modern marvels 0:08:07.236 --> 0:08:09.116 of my age. 0:08:09.316 --> 0:08:12.236 In to us, that's that's a very good point. In 0:08:12.276 --> 0:08:15.676 the urban large urban hotel, they were known for having 0:08:15.876 --> 0:08:20.076 all of the latest technological amenities. So in that sense, yes, 0:08:20.676 --> 0:08:24.356 you know, this is this is this this powerful new technology. 0:08:24.836 --> 0:08:27.396 But the critical thing I think is is it's not 0:08:27.476 --> 0:08:31.516 about speed, It's about luxury. When it makes the jump 0:08:31.596 --> 0:08:35.036 into the first tall office buildings in the eighteen seventies, 0:08:35.396 --> 0:08:39.356 beginning in eighteen seventy, In fact, that's when the idea 0:08:39.396 --> 0:08:45.836 of speed suddenly gets introduced because every business person recognizes, well, 0:08:45.876 --> 0:08:48.236 you know, I don't want to, you know, go into 0:08:48.276 --> 0:08:50.836 a seven story office building and go in and have 0:08:50.916 --> 0:08:52.956 a seat and sit down, and it takes me forever 0:08:52.996 --> 0:08:55.036 to get upstairs when I could walk up the stairs 0:08:55.076 --> 0:08:58.236 more quickly. The whole point of this technology is to 0:08:58.276 --> 0:09:02.836 move me more quickly. And so as the skyscraper moves 0:09:02.916 --> 0:09:08.076 through the nineteenth century, one way to describe it is, 0:09:08.116 --> 0:09:10.396 I mean we always hear the passenger elevator makes the 0:09:10.436 --> 0:09:16.796 skyscraper possible. True. Also, the desire to have a skyscraper 0:09:17.196 --> 0:09:21.636 made the modern elevator possible. I need both because I 0:09:21.676 --> 0:09:25.116 look at the first elevators steam powered, they could go 0:09:25.156 --> 0:09:28.676 seven eight floors without too much trouble, and there's a 0:09:28.716 --> 0:09:32.436 desire to build taller buildings. Then hydraulic elevators come into 0:09:32.436 --> 0:09:36.716 play of specific designs that can easily do ten, fifteen, 0:09:36.756 --> 0:09:39.596 twenty twenty five stories. Then we get to the close 0:09:39.636 --> 0:09:41.996 of the nineteenth century, I want to go higher. Still, 0:09:42.356 --> 0:09:45.796 I need a different technology than the electric traction elevator 0:09:45.876 --> 0:09:48.596 is developed. So in each of those phases, it's a 0:09:48.676 --> 0:09:52.316 question of, well, did the elevator technology drive the height 0:09:52.716 --> 0:09:56.516 or did the desire to go taller drive the technology. 0:09:57.076 --> 0:10:00.556 I mean, it seems like the first enabling idea you 0:10:00.716 --> 0:10:03.836 need is just the idea of an elevator, right Like, 0:10:03.956 --> 0:10:07.556 until you have the idea of an elevator, nobody's going 0:10:07.636 --> 0:10:10.396 to say, can you get me a better elevator? Right 0:10:10.476 --> 0:10:12.596 that people are just going to assume that the height 0:10:12.596 --> 0:10:14.836 of a building is constrained by the number of flights 0:10:14.836 --> 0:10:16.196 of steps people will walk. 0:10:16.116 --> 0:10:19.356 Up right right, true, And that's that's and that's a 0:10:19.436 --> 0:10:22.556 very good point. Yes. Once the idea is there, then 0:10:23.276 --> 0:10:26.436 it's it's really interesting how how it is considered. 0:10:26.516 --> 0:10:28.276 Then it's like, well, surely if you could take me 0:10:28.356 --> 0:10:31.476 up seven floors, you could take me up another seven 0:10:31.556 --> 0:10:35.436 floors and another seven and so what like by say 0:10:36.356 --> 0:10:39.836 nineteen hundred, by the early nineteen hundreds, How tall are buildings? 0:10:41.156 --> 0:10:45.876 Oh? In New York? That's a good question. 0:10:46.116 --> 0:10:48.276 I mean, the Woolworth Building is the one I always 0:10:48.316 --> 0:10:49.476 think of. I was looking at that one up. I 0:10:49.476 --> 0:10:52.556 think it's on the order of sixty stories, like very 0:10:52.636 --> 0:10:55.636 tall even today, not the tallest, but like you look 0:10:55.636 --> 0:10:57.276 at that building today and you're not like, oh, that's 0:10:57.276 --> 0:10:59.796 a tiny little building. Like that's a big building. Nobody's 0:10:59.796 --> 0:11:03.796 going to walk up all those steps, and it does 0:11:03.956 --> 0:11:08.596 seem it does seem like I understand that with your knowledge, 0:11:08.636 --> 0:11:11.756 you don't it as this one kind of step function change. 0:11:11.796 --> 0:11:14.596 There was like a really slow elevator that was like 0:11:14.596 --> 0:11:16.676 a luxury box to be fancy and take you up 0:11:16.716 --> 0:11:18.276 six stories, and then there was a better one that 0:11:18.356 --> 0:11:22.036 could do twenty. But in a relatively short period of 0:11:22.076 --> 0:11:24.636 time we go from I don't know how tall were 0:11:24.676 --> 0:11:27.116 tall buildings before elevator six stories seven. 0:11:26.876 --> 0:11:32.276 Stories five is five to maybe six, and of course 0:11:32.756 --> 0:11:35.716 the top floor was the cheapest to rent. 0:11:35.756 --> 0:11:37.996 Right, right, there's also that, right because you have to 0:11:37.996 --> 0:11:39.796 slap up all the steps, and so if you can 0:11:39.836 --> 0:11:42.356 afford it, you live on the ground, and that's going 0:11:42.356 --> 0:11:44.556 to get inverted, which is fun. Right, if you're rich, 0:11:44.596 --> 0:11:46.956 you get to live up top. But there is this, 0:11:47.436 --> 0:11:50.396 at least at our distance, this change. Right, you go 0:11:50.476 --> 0:11:54.356 from eighteen fifty no elevator, a tall building is six stories. 0:11:54.676 --> 0:11:59.796 By the early nineteen hundreds, elevators are quite good and safe, 0:12:00.076 --> 0:12:02.236 and you've gone up in the height of buildings by 0:12:02.516 --> 0:12:05.036 ten x. Right, you've gone up to buildings of something 0:12:05.196 --> 0:12:09.316 like sixty stories, and you have what looks like a 0:12:09.316 --> 0:12:12.116 modern city. Like, yes, it's not glass and steel yet, 0:12:12.156 --> 0:12:15.076 and it's not as tall, but it's the basic idea 0:12:15.116 --> 0:12:20.236 of say Manhattan, to pick one is in place. And 0:12:22.076 --> 0:12:26.116 we did not have another step function of that magnitude. Right, 0:12:26.116 --> 0:12:29.436 We went from six to sixty in that fifty ish years. 0:12:29.876 --> 0:12:33.396 We didn't go from sixty to six hundred. We're not 0:12:33.436 --> 0:12:35.436 even close. Right, The tallest buildings in the world now 0:12:35.476 --> 0:12:39.356 are one hundred in some stories. And that's interesting to me. 0:12:39.436 --> 0:12:41.956 I mean I feel like the biggest move was that 0:12:42.036 --> 0:12:43.396 first one. Do you buy it? 0:12:45.996 --> 0:12:49.996 Yeah, yes, I think that's a very good observation, observation, 0:12:50.196 --> 0:12:53.676 And but what that also speaks to is the electric 0:12:53.716 --> 0:12:57.756 traction elevator, perfected in the first couple of decades of 0:12:57.756 --> 0:13:04.396 the twentieth century, remains the dominant elevator type. What everyone 0:13:04.476 --> 0:13:09.956 is waiting on is a cableless elevator, possibly by maglev 0:13:10.036 --> 0:13:15.596 technology or something very similar. And because right now we're 0:13:15.636 --> 0:13:20.276 limited by the length and actually weight of the steel cables. 0:13:21.076 --> 0:13:23.676 Once we get rid of the cables and we can 0:13:23.876 --> 0:13:28.676 do it with the same speed and efficiency of the 0:13:28.756 --> 0:13:33.636 current traction elevator, that's the next jump, where suddenly one 0:13:33.716 --> 0:13:36.476 hundred and fifty two hundred stories, if we wanted to, 0:13:37.036 --> 0:13:37.916 would be possible. 0:13:41.996 --> 0:13:44.556 I want to talk more about that, but there's a 0:13:44.556 --> 0:13:47.516 few things I want to discuss first. So there are 0:13:47.596 --> 0:13:51.156 a few things that have happened obviously in elevators in 0:13:51.196 --> 0:13:54.476 the last one hundred years. One of them that is 0:13:54.516 --> 0:14:01.836 interesting to me is the advent of what today we 0:14:01.916 --> 0:14:06.356 might call the driverless car elevator, the driverless elevator car. 0:14:06.476 --> 0:14:10.636 Let's say, right in this era, when we've keep feeling like, 0:14:10.796 --> 0:14:13.196 maybe we're about to get to driverless cars, but everybody's 0:14:13.236 --> 0:14:15.716 really nervous about it. There is this interesting moment when 0:14:15.796 --> 0:14:18.796 that happens with elevators. Tell me about the advent of 0:14:18.836 --> 0:14:20.356 the driverless elevator car. 0:14:20.996 --> 0:14:25.316 Okay, and that is a critical pivot point that occurs 0:14:25.356 --> 0:14:30.116 in the nineteen fifties. So prior to the what the 0:14:30.116 --> 0:14:33.756 industry called the operator less elevator or driverless elevator, if 0:14:33.796 --> 0:14:38.716 you will, all elevators had operators, even ones with push 0:14:38.716 --> 0:14:41.476 buttons that you know, you or I could have walked 0:14:41.476 --> 0:14:45.196 in and pushed a button. The reason the operator remains 0:14:45.236 --> 0:14:48.316 in the car until the nineteen fifties is it has 0:14:48.356 --> 0:14:51.396 to do with traffic control. So in a large building, 0:14:51.476 --> 0:14:55.516 let's say the building has twenty elevators, it's a forty 0:14:55.516 --> 0:14:59.116 story building, and ten elevators, you know, serve half the 0:14:59.156 --> 0:15:03.396 floor's tens or the other half. Elevator traffic control was 0:15:03.476 --> 0:15:08.356 conducted and organized by an individual called a starter. He 0:15:08.516 --> 0:15:12.276 was charged with organizing the elevator operators and at least 0:15:12.316 --> 0:15:14.316 and at the beginning of the day and throughout the 0:15:14.396 --> 0:15:18.596 day as needed, giving them a sign, either a literal 0:15:18.676 --> 0:15:21.396 sign by pointing at them or by pushing a button 0:15:21.396 --> 0:15:24.476 that would activate a light in their car, of controlling 0:15:24.556 --> 0:15:27.516 elevator traffic in the building so that it met the 0:15:27.556 --> 0:15:28.356 needs of the building. 0:15:28.516 --> 0:15:31.796 We get everybody up like a like a taxi dispatcher. 0:15:32.636 --> 0:15:35.116 That's that's a that's a very good analogy. And we're 0:15:35.156 --> 0:15:38.436 dependent on the human brain to do that until we 0:15:38.476 --> 0:15:41.076 get to the early nineteen fifties when we get the 0:15:41.116 --> 0:15:45.996 first automated systems that will manage that you can, for 0:15:46.116 --> 0:15:49.756 lack of a better word, program into preset programs so 0:15:49.796 --> 0:15:53.076 that the elevators automatically do what we want them to do. 0:15:53.396 --> 0:15:56.476 And as soon as I can do that reliably, reliably, 0:15:57.036 --> 0:15:59.916 I don't need the operator anymore, and therefore I can 0:15:59.956 --> 0:16:04.156 get rid of them because I've literally automated the movement 0:16:04.196 --> 0:16:05.516 of elevators. 0:16:05.956 --> 0:16:08.476 Well, so this is the like real estate point of view, 0:16:08.476 --> 0:16:11.876 in the elevator point of view, what is the elevator 0:16:11.996 --> 0:16:15.756 rider the civilian point of view on this shift toward 0:16:15.876 --> 0:16:20.116 automated elevators, like, were people scared? Were they not scared? 0:16:21.716 --> 0:16:21.796 So? 0:16:22.476 --> 0:16:24.916 Lever House in New York City, one of the first 0:16:24.956 --> 0:16:27.796 all glass skyscrapers, was one of the first buildings to 0:16:27.876 --> 0:16:33.636 have fully automated elevators, no operators. There are documented stories 0:16:33.636 --> 0:16:36.956 of when the building opened, everybody was really excited this 0:16:37.236 --> 0:16:41.276 new modern building, of users going in the building, stepping 0:16:41.316 --> 0:16:43.796 into the elevator car and stepping right back out, saying, 0:16:43.836 --> 0:16:46.516 where's the guy who's supposed to run this? Because they 0:16:46.516 --> 0:16:50.396 were they were clearly disconcerted that so there's no one here. 0:16:50.916 --> 0:16:54.516 I am on my own, and I mean people got 0:16:54.556 --> 0:16:57.236 over that pretty quickly, but there was a moment where 0:16:57.236 --> 0:16:58.436 it's like, well, wait a minute. 0:16:58.156 --> 0:17:02.436 I I pushed the button really all by myself, huh, 0:17:02.476 --> 0:17:05.596 And I mean it didn't take long, but there was 0:17:05.636 --> 0:17:08.236 a there was a learning curve because it was such 0:17:08.236 --> 0:17:10.436 an expected part of the experience. 0:17:10.796 --> 0:17:13.836 There's this uniformed person there who all I have to 0:17:13.876 --> 0:17:16.396 do is say five please, and they take care of 0:17:16.396 --> 0:17:16.836 it for me. 0:17:18.556 --> 0:17:22.636 Are there any lessons from that transition to driverless elevator 0:17:22.676 --> 0:17:26.596 cars that might be useful for the transition to driverless cars, 0:17:27.116 --> 0:17:30.236 Like did they change the user interface at all? Did 0:17:30.236 --> 0:17:33.116 they add any buttons to try and make people feel better? 0:17:35.156 --> 0:17:37.876 I am not aware of any of any change in buttons, 0:17:37.916 --> 0:17:40.236 but you did make me think of something that I 0:17:40.276 --> 0:17:42.796 haven't thought of before. When I've got an operator in 0:17:42.836 --> 0:17:46.596 there running the car. Also, the presence of the operator 0:17:47.916 --> 0:17:53.276 I think produced a very specific social dynamic because there's 0:17:53.396 --> 0:17:55.956 someone in charge in the car. So I go in. 0:17:56.676 --> 0:18:00.276 When there's no one in charge, it is literally a 0:18:00.316 --> 0:18:05.996 group of strangers entering a car, sort of fending for themselves. 0:18:06.036 --> 0:18:10.436 And that social dynamic remains one of the reasons many 0:18:10.476 --> 0:18:15.316 people don't like elevators because they're awkward, they're weird little rooms. 0:18:15.356 --> 0:18:21.356 Then I'm standing way too close to somebody. 0:18:20.796 --> 0:18:23.836 Still to come on the show. Elevators that go sideways, 0:18:24.356 --> 0:18:39.556 elevators that go to space, and escalators. So here's a question. 0:18:39.916 --> 0:18:42.436 Do people want to build taller buildings now? And they're 0:18:42.476 --> 0:18:43.916 just constrained by elevators. 0:18:44.916 --> 0:18:49.236 So if I wanted to, I could build two hundred 0:18:49.276 --> 0:18:53.916 story building with current technology, and I would take existing 0:18:53.956 --> 0:18:56.436 technology and I could go, you know, maybe one hundred 0:18:56.436 --> 0:18:59.156 floors up, get off at a sky lobby, and then 0:18:59.196 --> 0:19:01.476 go another one hundred floors up. So if I wanted 0:19:01.476 --> 0:19:04.436 to stack two hundred story buildings on top of each other, 0:19:05.036 --> 0:19:05.516 I could. 0:19:05.676 --> 0:19:07.836 I mean, in fact, the World Trade Center, the original 0:19:07.876 --> 0:19:10.836 World Trade Center, which was not that all, used that technology, right, 0:19:10.956 --> 0:19:13.596 it was essentially from an elevator point of view, two 0:19:13.636 --> 0:19:16.076 elevators stacked on top of each other to get to 0:19:16.076 --> 0:19:17.516 the top of those buildings, right. 0:19:17.436 --> 0:19:20.076 Right, So in theory, yes, yes, I could do that, 0:19:21.236 --> 0:19:25.276 and there are some people speculating on you know, that 0:19:25.836 --> 0:19:30.956 eventually that's the future of urban environments, massive buildings and 0:19:31.036 --> 0:19:35.556 everybody living in large cities. I'm not aware of any 0:19:36.116 --> 0:19:39.996 anyone who's put forward a serious explanation of why we 0:19:40.076 --> 0:19:41.596 would need to do that. 0:19:42.436 --> 0:19:45.156 Well, the interesting like if we go back to the 0:19:45.676 --> 0:19:50.236 sort of first chapter that you know, whatever eighteen fifty 0:19:50.356 --> 0:19:53.956 to nineteen twenty period call it, which is really an 0:19:53.956 --> 0:19:56.796 interesting period. You know, there's a pretty strong argument that 0:19:57.596 --> 0:20:00.476 the technological changes of that period were much greater than 0:20:00.476 --> 0:20:03.876 the technological changes of the seventy years we've just lived through. 0:20:03.956 --> 0:20:04.156 Right. 0:20:04.236 --> 0:20:09.676 You go from no running water for almost everybody, electricity, 0:20:09.676 --> 0:20:13.796 no cars, no planes, no skyscrapers like two. You know, 0:20:13.916 --> 0:20:18.436 Manhattan in nineteen twenty looks eminently recognizable in a way 0:20:18.476 --> 0:20:22.796 that Manhattan of eighteen fifty would not. So I don't 0:20:22.796 --> 0:20:24.876 think it would have been obvious to anyone in eighteen 0:20:24.916 --> 0:20:29.236 fifty that Manhattan needed sixty story buildings. And yet seventy 0:20:29.316 --> 0:20:34.236 years later, we had them like, what's the why did 0:20:34.236 --> 0:20:36.356 we hit the top? If we hit the top, what happened? 0:20:37.676 --> 0:20:41.436 Well, I mean in the Woolworth building is a good example. 0:20:42.756 --> 0:20:47.556 I think it was it was its size because the client, Woolworth, 0:20:48.036 --> 0:20:52.676 wanted that building to be that big. This is about me, 0:20:53.196 --> 0:20:56.076 This is about a symbol of my commercial success, this 0:20:56.116 --> 0:21:00.716 is about my ego. And it's really important to remember 0:21:00.796 --> 0:21:05.876 from from an urban development point of view, at this 0:21:06.196 --> 0:21:09.796 when the passenger elevators introduced in the Nine States, it's 0:21:09.836 --> 0:21:14.836 introduced into Europe at exactly the same moment, but all 0:21:14.876 --> 0:21:18.796 major European cities. London's a good example. Paris certainly had 0:21:18.916 --> 0:21:22.556 very specific height restrictions. You couldn't build a skyscraper in 0:21:22.596 --> 0:21:25.676 those cities if you wanted to, because it was constrained 0:21:25.676 --> 0:21:29.556 by code, and also there was no apparent desire to 0:21:29.596 --> 0:21:33.276 do so. It was only the United States that we 0:21:33.396 --> 0:21:35.596 you know, someone said, well, I really want to build 0:21:35.596 --> 0:21:37.916 this tall building because I want to, you know, it's 0:21:37.916 --> 0:21:39.916 the power of my company. I want to make lots 0:21:39.916 --> 0:21:44.236 of money in rent space. Whatever that we said, okay, 0:21:44.916 --> 0:21:47.596 And not that there weren't some I mean, obviously there 0:21:47.596 --> 0:21:50.076 were gradually development of building codes. But it was a 0:21:50.076 --> 0:21:53.516 lot about the ego of the individual client and the 0:21:53.596 --> 0:21:58.476 fact of the unrestrained nature of American urban environments. That 0:21:58.876 --> 0:22:02.156 and that also then, and it is still true. 0:22:02.356 --> 0:22:06.516 It's still true. But buildings aren't getting bigger so much, right, Like, yes, 0:22:06.516 --> 0:22:08.436 you get a building that's a little taller, but we 0:22:08.516 --> 0:22:11.796 have not done another ten x. And yet people still 0:22:11.836 --> 0:22:15.436 have very large egos and a wish to, you know, 0:22:16.396 --> 0:22:18.556 show the world their endowment in the form of the 0:22:18.596 --> 0:22:21.916 biggest building in the world. But yet it's not happening 0:22:21.956 --> 0:22:25.236 so much anymore. Is it a technological thing? 0:22:26.196 --> 0:22:27.916 It is an interesting point. I mean, you know, we 0:22:28.276 --> 0:22:33.276 are sort of maxed out right now in terms of height. Yeah. 0:22:33.356 --> 0:22:35.636 Why is that is the fact that we're maxed out 0:22:35.636 --> 0:22:40.036 on height a product of elevator technology? Are we waiting 0:22:40.076 --> 0:22:42.836 for some new elevator technology that will allow us to 0:22:43.036 --> 0:22:45.476 get buildings that are profoundly bigger? 0:22:46.276 --> 0:22:50.956 Right or wrong? That's the accepted position of the industry 0:22:51.036 --> 0:22:54.156 right now. That yes, with our current technology. Whereas where's 0:22:54.236 --> 0:22:56.956 high as we're going to go? What I don't know, 0:22:57.036 --> 0:23:00.996 but suspect from a real estate perspective is if I 0:23:01.076 --> 0:23:03.716 had two one hundred story buildings stacked on top of 0:23:03.756 --> 0:23:07.316 one another. Would people be willing to r you know, 0:23:07.436 --> 0:23:12.876 spend the time to get up to the two guys? Right? 0:23:13.036 --> 0:23:17.116 Am I willing to take that kind of time and. 0:23:17.596 --> 0:23:20.036 Time because they have to take two elevators? It's like, right, 0:23:20.116 --> 0:23:23.196 you gotta transfer trains or something. 0:23:22.916 --> 0:23:25.916 To And if I had a building that size, would 0:23:25.956 --> 0:23:30.596 it be one where? And we've had mixed use skyscrapers 0:23:30.636 --> 0:23:32.876 in the past. If I had a building that size, 0:23:32.916 --> 0:23:35.396 you know, is it one that you know? I live 0:23:35.716 --> 0:23:38.316 on you know, one hundred and fifty and I work 0:23:38.356 --> 0:23:39.756 on seventy five. 0:23:39.996 --> 0:23:42.036 And you shop on three, and you go to the 0:23:42.116 --> 0:23:45.596 gym on six, and I and I never leave, you 0:23:45.716 --> 0:23:50.916 never leave. Dystopian, but fun to think about. So what, 0:23:51.116 --> 0:23:56.836 so what is the next leap in elevator technology? What 0:23:56.876 --> 0:23:58.956 are people trying to solve? What's the frontier? 0:23:59.636 --> 0:24:02.676 So the next leap is going to be elevators with 0:24:02.756 --> 0:24:07.556 no cables and TK Elevator has developed a system that 0:24:07.596 --> 0:24:14.636 they call multi which uses maglev type technology. 0:24:14.916 --> 0:24:18.396 Maglev like magnets like high speed trains. Yes, so it's 0:24:18.476 --> 0:24:20.276 floating basically in a shaft. 0:24:20.556 --> 0:24:25.236 Yeah, a similar, similar kind of technology. And they have 0:24:25.356 --> 0:24:29.036 developed a prototype where you would have multiple shafts in 0:24:29.076 --> 0:24:32.556 a building, multiple cars running up and down in the 0:24:32.596 --> 0:24:38.556 same shaft, but also horizontal shafts connecting vertical shafts, so 0:24:38.636 --> 0:24:42.956